“I want to be able to guarantee the legal status of EU nationals who are living in the UK, and I am confident we will be able to do that,” she said.
“But we must also win the same rights for British nationals living in European countries, and it will be an early negotiating objective for the Government to achieve those things together.”
See point 2 in my recent thread predicting the EURef was more like the AV referendum
The focus of referendum has been portrayed as an opportunity to kick an unpopular politician rather than look at the merits of the argument. Had the AV referendum focused purely on the merits of AV, then I’m sure the undoubted merits of AV would have ensured a triumph for Yes2AV.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
I'd also argue that the public got fed up of PMs going to Brussels and spinning that they got brilliant deals when it was clear that they really didn't and there was never any chance we could influence major reform.
It meant people didn't trust Cameron's latest renegotiation wheeze.
Not seen a Crabb surrogate yet. Considering pulling out?
His chances are "gossamer thin" but no need to pull out just yet......
Unless PB has missed an interview I think it's telling no Crabbite has crawled from under a stone an hour after the tide went out. I think he's cooked ....
Sums it up really. How does Nick P and the other Corbyn apologists feel about this state of affairs? Labour are a bloody laughing stock.
As Danny implies, if someone wishes to stand for leader, let them say so and why and we'll consider it. If they don't, then stop resigning and plotting and leaking, or don't complain when we blame you rather than Corbyn. I have zero interest in anonymous challengers, or challengers who are merely anti-Corbyn with nothing positive to say. We've been there, done that, last year.
Interesting how you have often advocated a coronation for Theresa May. Your contempt for Conservative Party members is clear. Why do you object to the membership having a vote ?
He thinks May will reverse Brexit and doesn't want to risk those pesky Con members throwing a spanner in the works?
No, Brexit is happening, the people have spoken, I'm looking forward to it
Yup Most other countries that voted against the EU they got asked to vote again by the EU until the correct answer was received at which point that was binding.
Be a bit bizarre if after all of this upheaval we then ourselves cut out the 40 year old EU middle man and asked ourselves to vote again....
“I want to be able to guarantee the legal status of EU nationals who are living in the UK, and I am confident we will be able to do that,” she said.
“But we must also win the same rights for British nationals living in European countries, and it will be an early negotiating objective for the Government to achieve those things together.”
What are the odds of Crabb withdrawing and endorsing May before Thursday's ballot? He seems highly unlikely to get into the final two now. Best for him to secure a top job in May's cabinet and have a go next time when he's got a bigger profile in the party.
Whether it matters or not, I am inclined to think Theresa did lend some votes to Gove. It's convenient that she got 165 votes - just a majority.
If she's crafty she will have lent a few to Leadsom too and call some back for next time. Last thing Leadsom needs is to get the same or fewer votes in R2.
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see, provided again that the Taxpayer was kept out of it and the respective airport companies paid up.
For what purpose? Two separate airports will never be viable as a hub.
There are, to my mind, several hilarious things in this:
*) People thinking the solution that best fits them is the one to go for: "It allows *me* to get to the airport half an hour earlier!". Additionally, people ignoring the findings of the Davies Commission Report (*). The commission wasn't perfect, but it's what we've got.
*) Hyperloop as a viable transport mechanism. It makes Maglev look sane.
"We're leaving Downing Street for the last time after six wonderful years, and we're very happy that we leave the United Kingdom in a very much more divided, polarised state than when we came here six years ago."
We know every political life ends in failure. But few could exceed Cameron's miserable legacy at leaving Britain so right royally funked. Even Major's 1997 humiliation is looking miraculous by comparison, never mind Eden's hasty departure.
I feel sorry for Cameron but at the same time it was his decision to gamble everything on the outcome of one single event.
I felt sorry for Cameron...but then I have been asked repeatedly by my Italian and European friends why did the UK put this to a plebiscite?
Because your friends don't understand democracy. Governments are elected by the people for the people and carry out the will of the people.
It really does not surprise me why you are not familiar with this most basic democratic principle.
Sums it up really. How does Nick P and the other Corbyn apologists feel about this state of affairs? Labour are a bloody laughing stock.
As Danny implies, if someone wishes to stand for leader, let them say so and why and we'll consider it. If they don't, then stop resigning and plotting and leaking, or don't complain when we blame you rather than Corbyn. I have zero interest in anonymous challengers, or challengers who are merely anti-Corbyn with nothing positive to say. We've been there, done that, last year.
If you have multiple seats in the Shadow Cabinet, do you get multiple votes?
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see,
'Mazing. Much discussion about the best mode of transport to link two airports. May I 'umbly suggest some sort of aircraft perhaps?
Mr. Code, you seem to have missed my earlier comment when I referenced the former helicopter link which worked very successfully between Heathrow and Gatwick. It was killed off by eco-loons.
See point 2 in my recent thread predicting the EURef was more like the AV referendum
The focus of referendum has been portrayed as an opportunity to kick an unpopular politician rather than look at the merits of the argument. Had the AV referendum focused purely on the merits of AV, then I’m sure the undoubted merits of AV would have ensured a triumph for Yes2AV.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
Sad that they have to experience how much worse it could be for them to find out they were wrong. Destruction with no positive purpose or any plan.
mmmm Fox is eliminated, Crabb looks like he's going to be next, Eagle has failed to land a blow in the Labour leadership battle and last year Lamb got done in the Lib/Dem race. It doesn't look good for Wolfe's chances in UKIP does it?
If Fox backs May it's all over isn't it? The entire case against her rests on the her not being a Brexiter, but that disappears once she get prominent Brexiters on board.
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see,
'Mazing. Much discussion about the best mode of transport to link two airports. May I 'umbly suggest some sort of aircraft perhaps?
There used to be a helo shuttle between the two, but was too noisy for the locals. A fast fixed link like a Hyperloop or maglev would be faster than a plane with boarding times and security etc, would also be more frequent and not use valuable landing slots on the runways. We can but dream.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
Sad that they have to experience how much worse it could be for them to find out they were wrong. Destruction with no positive purpose or any plan.
Possibly. The important thing to remember here is that its always "The Economy, Stupid". But its not the economy as a whole that matters but your own, your family's and possible your friend's...
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
I'd also argue that the public got fed up of PMs going to Brussels and spinning that they got brilliant deals when it was clear that they really didn't and there was never any chance we could influence major reform.
It meant people didn't trust Cameron's latest renegotiation wheeze.
Correct
He came back and tried to sell a pup ( runt of the litter). The people saw it for what it was ....
He was utterly foxed from that point on. Regrettably the EU will now probably reform but it should and could have done this previously if they had only listened. They didn't.
The fault for this lies entirely with the EU. It just does.
...and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo...
It's unfair to criticise the writers here given what they get paid, but the headline makes its sound voluntary on Fox's part. That's not correct, is it?
If I were a duplicitous sh*t like Brutus I'd say that Crabb will exit shortly, endorse May and on Thursday any Gove tactical switchers return home with a result around :
mmmm Fox is eliminated, Crabb looks like he's going to be next, Eagle has failed to land a blow in the Labour leadership battle and last year Lamb got done in the Lib/Dem race. It doesn't look good for Wolfe's chances in UKIP does it?
On the other hand, Sturgeon is queen of all she surveys.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
You forgot the people ...... ( you always do)
See previous post.
OK, I'll start it; opponents of democracy have managed significant popular support in elections in the past in other Eoropean countries. Especially when the campaigns for which they voted have been led by proven liars.
When you read through the threads of the popular newspapers, nobody has a good word to say about Theresa May.
The more dismissive they are, the more up voted.
Just sayin'
Choosing May would be a massive error by the Tories. She's Britain's Hillary.
By this time next year May will probably be PM and Hillary US president and Merkel still head of the most powerful nation in the EU, 2017 will be a milestone year of women in power
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see,
'Mazing. Much discussion about the best mode of transport to link two airports. May I 'umbly suggest some sort of aircraft perhaps?
Mr. Code, you seem to have missed my earlier comment when I referenced the former helicopter link which worked very successfully between Heathrow and Gatwick. It was killed off by eco-loons.
When you read through the threads of the popular newspapers, nobody has a good word to say about Theresa May.
The more dismissive they are, the more up voted.
Just sayin'
Choosing May would be a massive error by the Tories. She's Britain's Hillary.
Whoever wins is going to have the most awful premiership. Years bogged down in Brexit nonsense, economy in emergency ward 10, slashing public spending, angry voters when migration remains stubbornly high etc etc. This has to be the biggest poison chalice handed over in decades.
No wonder Boris thought he'd let someone else clear up his own mess - just like the good old Bullingdon days.
Where is this economic armageddon a Leave vote was supposed to bring?
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
Sad that they have to experience how much worse it could be for them to find out they were wrong. Destruction with no positive purpose or any plan.
Possibly. The important thing to remember here is that its always "The Economy, Stupid". But its not the economy as a whole that matters but your own, your family's and possible your friend's...
Rule of thumb, any downturn will always hit the poorest the most. I have first hand experience from the seventies and eighties of this. Second rule of thumb, the north will always have it worse than the south east.
See point 2 in my recent thread predicting the EURef was more like the AV referendum
The focus of referendum has been portrayed as an opportunity to kick an unpopular politician rather than look at the merits of the argument. Had the AV referendum focused purely on the merits of AV, then I’m sure the undoubted merits of AV would have ensured a triumph for Yes2AV.
It's unfair to criticise the writers here given what they get paid, but the headline makes its sound voluntary on Fox's part. That's not correct, is it?
Headline writing is the hardest part. I'm utterly hopeless at it.
"We're leaving Downing Street for the last time after six wonderful years, and we're very happy that we leave the United Kingdom in a very much more divided, polarised state than when we came here six years ago."
We know every political life ends in failure. But few could exceed Cameron's miserable legacy at leaving Britain so right royally funked. Even Major's 1997 humiliation is looking miraculous by comparison, never mind Eden's hasty departure.
I feel sorry for Cameron but at the same time it was his decision to gamble everything on the outcome of one single event.
I felt sorry for Cameron...but then I have been asked repeatedly by my Italian and European friends why did the UK put this to a plebiscite?
Because your friends don't understand democracy. Governments are elected by the people for the people and carry out the will of the people.
It really does not surprise me why you are not familiar with this most basic democratic principle.
Tell them it was because of UKIPs performance in the 2014 local and European elections, it must have made news on the continent, particularly the Euro vote. Having made a manifesto pledge of a referendum in 2015 in an attempt to stop the rise of UKIP, Cameron unexpectedly won a majority and given the splits in the Tory party he had no choice but to stick to his pledge.
Not sure it would be wise for May to bother with playing votes tactically. She just needs to maximise her vote and make it look silly for anyone to oppose her. Whilst drawing parallels with the farcical situation in the Labour party.
"We're leaving Downing Street for the last time after six wonderful years, and we're very happy that we leave the United Kingdom in a very much more divided, polarised state than when we came here six years ago."
We know every political life ends in failure. But few could exceed Cameron's miserable legacy at leaving Britain so right royally funked. Even Major's 1997 humiliation is looking miraculous by comparison, never mind Eden's hasty departure.
Major left a growing economy, Cameron has left the UK in better shape economically than Brown left it in. I don't think BREXIT will hit Cameron's reputation that much, he at least allowed voters the choice, personally I would rate him our 4th best postwar PM after Thatcher, Attlee and MacMillan and just ahead of Blair
Not sure it would be wise for May to bother with playing votes tactically. She just needs to maximise her vote and make it look silly for anyone to oppose her. Whilst drawing parallels with the farcical situation in the Labour party.
She needed to get well over 50% in the first round for a coronation to be viable IMO.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
Because the Remain Campaign was utterly dire, and completely ill-suited to the current public mood.
Remain's message was "you've never had it so good, don't take the risk of economic chaos". On the contrary, many people in the real world feel they've never had it so BAD, and in many cases actually welcomed the prospect of blowing up the current economy, because whatever replaced it couldn't possibly be worse than the status quo.
Sad that they have to experience how much worse it could be for them to find out they were wrong. Destruction with no positive purpose or any plan.
Possibly. The important thing to remember here is that its always "The Economy, Stupid". But its not the economy as a whole that matters but your own, your family's and possible your friend's...
Rule of thumb, any downturn will always hit the poorest the most. I have first hand experience from the seventies and eighties of this. Second rule of thumb, the north will always have it worse than the south east.
Even if that turns out to be true, it doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible campaign strategy to tell people who are furious with the status quo, that voting a certain way will cause huge change. People in a desperate situation are going to cling to ANY hope that's offered to them.
For Remain to have any chance, they needed to somehow present Remain as the anti-establishment choice. The day they decided to present a vote for Remain as an endorsement for the way the economy currently works, was the day the campaign was lost.
If Fox backs May it's all over isn't it? The entire case against her rests on the her not being a Brexiter, but that disappears once she get prominent Brexiters on board.
She's already got Mr Grayling on board. I don't think Mr Fox had a higher profile during the referendum.
"We're leaving Downing Street for the last time after six wonderful years, and we're very happy that we leave the United Kingdom in a very much more divided, polarised state than when we came here six years ago."
We know every political life ends in failure. But few could exceed Cameron's miserable legacy at leaving Britain so right royally funked. Even Major's 1997 humiliation is looking miraculous by comparison, never mind Eden's hasty departure.
I feel sorry for Cameron but at the same time it was his decision to gamble everything on the outcome of one single event.
I felt sorry for Cameron...but then I have been asked repeatedly by my Italian and European friends why did the UK put this to a plebiscite?
Because your friends don't understand democracy. Governments are elected by the people for the people and carry out the will of the people.
It really does not surprise me why you are not familiar with this most basic democratic principle.
Tell them it was because of UKIPs performance in the 2014 local and European elections, it must have made news on the continent, particularly the Euro vote. Having made a manifesto pledge of a referendum in 2015 in an attempt to stop the rise of UKIP, Cameron unexpectedly won a majority and given the splits in the Tory party he had no choice but to stick to his pledge.
Good evening all.
He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.
Not sure it would be wise for May to bother with playing votes tactically. She just needs to maximise her vote and make it look silly for anyone to oppose her. Whilst drawing parallels with the farcical situation in the Labour party.
She needed to get well over 50% in the first round for a coronation to be viable IMO.
I wasn't making the coronation argument here. Although if the others wanted to voluntarily drop out that's up to them. The point was that will the membership really want to go against the clear will of the Parliamentary party? The country doesn't need an unstable government at the moment.
When you read through the threads of the popular newspapers, nobody has a good word to say about Theresa May.
The more dismissive they are, the more up voted.
Just sayin'
Choosing May would be a massive error by the Tories. She's Britain's Hillary.
By this time next year May will probably be PM and Hillary US president and Merkel still head of the most powerful nation in the EU, 2017 will be a milestone year of women in power
Leadsom PM, Trump President. Frau Merkel and Mrs Clinton sectioned. By this time next year.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
You forgot the people ...... ( you always do)
See previous post.
OK, I'll start it; opponents of democracy have managed significant popular support in elections in the past in other Eoropean countries. Especially when the campaigns for which they voted have been led by proven liars.
Perhaps, just perhaps the people thought Remain were also lying. That's the odd situation here.
Of course remain were telling the truth about the EU. Of course they were.... Yes who would ever doubt anything the EU does.
Sadly in my 40 years of experience with the EU it's always been lies , more lies and fudges with unelected officials and gravy trains unending. It started as the EEC and morphed into the EU. I would politely suggest finally the people saw though this and finally had enough. They gave the EU a kick up their collective Arse.
They are now at least taking notice sadly too little to late.
outcomes whether good or bad just don't feck with the people. Most importantly never ever threaten them.
While you're about. Can I ask that you change the header from drops out, to dumped out. It would ensure his humiliation is recorded for ever. (Or as long as the internet remembers) and would cheer me up no end.
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see,
'Mazing. Much discussion about the best mode of transport to link two airports. May I 'umbly suggest some sort of aircraft perhaps?
Mr. Code, you seem to have missed my earlier comment when I referenced the former helicopter link which worked very successfully between Heathrow and Gatwick. It was killed off by eco-loons.
It wasn't killed by eco-loons. It was killed by NIMBYs in the leafy stockbroker belt between LHR and LGW not liking the noise.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
You forgot the people ...... ( you always do)
See previous post.
OK, I'll start it; opponents of democracy have managed significant popular support in elections in the past in other Eoropean countries. Especially when the campaigns for which they voted have been led by proven liars.
No that will not do, Mr. Cole. All politicians are guilty of at least stretching the truth or putting forward their spin on circumstances. It is what they do and I have not noticed a difference between any campaign in my lifetime.
What might, I say might, have changed is that voters are less susceptible to the spin because they have heard all the crap before. In many areas of life I think it is generally acknowledged that people are much less likely to accept the voice of "authority". From coppers giving evidence in court upwards, trust in our establishment has collapsed. We are far more sceptical, and for good reason - we have been misled/lied to far too often.
So now politicians trying to sell a message and so-called experts (those who have got it wrong so often before) are struggling to get a hearing. If a person can see what is happening in his/her own community a politician/expert telling them they are wrong because the statistics say something else no longer cuts much ice.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
You forgot the people ...... ( you always do)
See previous post.
In the spirit of bonhomie and coming together I was speaking to my Brexit brother today who said he voted Brexit to stop Islamic terrorism. I cannot quite believe we share the same DNA.
The stupidity of the Brexiters will never cease to amaze.
Next I will hear someone voted Brexit because they want Man Utd to win the league.
While you're about. Can I ask that you change the header from drops out, to dumped out. It would ensure his humiliation is recorded for ever. (Or as long as the internet remembers) and would cheer me up no end.
Is Mike's thread and he's currently locked into it.
But the pic records it accurately, Liam Fox eliminated
I'd put a link between the M23 and A23 half way along the nine miles, if only to allow traffic to keep moving slowly when there's a big accident on the motorway. I used to live on the M3 corridor, and I'll guess that during my time in the sandpit the traffic on the M25 between the M40 and M23 hasn't got any better!
Hyperloop is of course wishful thinking, for a large number of reasons, but we used to do stuff like that in the UK and should be supporting and developing new technology where possible.
Are we still expecting the runway announcement this week?
Mrt. Pit, I drove South down the M23 from the M25 the Sunday before last and the Northbound traffic was stationary from the M25 to Gatwick. No idea why, the M25 at that section was flowing freely and traffic was light. A nightmare for the people trying to get to Heathrow to catch a connection.
However, imagine the cost of putting in a link between the M25 and the A23 at the four and a half mile mark. It would be used not very much and it would cut across the most expensive, non-urban, real estate in the Country. to say nothing of the engineering problems (lots of downland at about that point. It could be done but not please at taxpayer expense.
Now an elevated Hyperloop train system between Gatwick and Heathrow I could see, provided again that the Taxpayer was kept out of it and the respective airport companies paid up.
As to the decision on where a new runway will be built I read in the Telegraph that it has been put back to the autumn.
The roads are only a mile and a half apart, and there's already a couple of minor roads in the area that could be improved. Many people would have benefited from that the other Sunday.
I'd love to see some of our great scientists working on transport problems, it's not impossible to get a Hyperloop or Maglev up and running, and between the two busiest airports in the country would be an ideal place to start.
It seems we're scared as a country of developing new technology, preferring old and tested solutions to pushing the boundaries. Maybe we should ask the F1 teams for advise on how to push technological boundaries, they seem quite good at it from where I'm sitting.
Hopefully Mrs May will have the new runway as her first announcement as PM. We need to show the world we're open for business and that's a good starting point.
So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.
You forgot the people ...... ( you always do)
See previous post.
In the spirit of bonhomie and coming together I was speaking to my Brexit brother today who said he voted Brexit to stop Islamic terrorism. I cannot quite believe we share the same DNA.
The stupidity of the Brexiters will never cease to amaze.
Next I will hear someone voted Brexit because they want Man Utd to win the league.
Well i'm not sure Leicester would have won in a Brexit world. Doubt Mahrez and Kante would have got work permits.
"We're leaving Downing Street for the last time after six wonderful years, and we're very happy that we leave the United Kingdom in a very much more divided, polarised state than when we came here six years ago."
We know every political life ends in failure. But few could exceed Cameron's miserable legacy at leaving Britain so right royally funked. Even Major's 1997 humiliation is looking miraculous by comparison, never mind Eden's hasty departure.
I feel sorry for Cameron but at the same time it was his decision to gamble everything on the outcome of one single event.
I felt sorry for Cameron...but then I have been asked repeatedly by my Italian and European friends why did the UK put this to a plebiscite?
Because your friends don't understand democracy. Governments are elected by the people for the people and carry out the will of the people.
It really does not surprise me why you are not familiar with this most basic democratic principle.
Tell them it was because of UKIPs performance in the 2014 local and European elections, it must have made news on the continent, particularly the Euro vote. Having made a manifesto pledge of a referendum in 2015 in an attempt to stop the rise of UKIP, Cameron unexpectedly won a majority and given the splits in the Tory party he had no choice but to stick to his pledge.
Good evening all.
He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.
He probably feared running into continental elections in 2017 (France at least), and the run up to them, and courtesy of Mutti Merkel's brainlessness last year, having a migrant crisis beamed into the nation's TV screens again this Summer. That and a desire to get it out of the way, as it seems perfectly clear he and Osborne regarded the whole thing as a tiresome distraction to be won at a 20 point canter so they could get on with other stuff.
If also seems clear, as far as I can see, that nobody negotiating in the Autumn/Winter wanted to be doing it ( Cameron,Merkel,Tusk, Hollande, let alone Juncker who clearly regards the British as he would an eggy fart in a lift), and nobody remotely took the possibility seriously that we the British people, would actually go and do the deed.
I'd never thought I'd see the day when Andy Burnham looks like a towering intellectual and heavyweight. It's a thinninsh SC isn't it. One wonders what a Leadsom cabinet would look like.
'He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.'
He didn't need to accept such a crap deal and to let the EU know whatever deal they came up with he would still recommend.
'He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.'
He didn't need to accept such a crap deal and to let the EU know whatever deal they came up with he would still recommend.
Fair point. I would add that I'm officially tired of talking about the referendum and the shoulda, coulda, woulda hoopla around it.
Leave won, time to look to the future and see what our politicians can do with the hand they've been dealt.
Comments
The focus of referendum has been portrayed as an opportunity to kick an unpopular politician rather than look at the merits of the argument. Had the AV referendum focused purely on the merits of AV, then I’m sure the undoubted merits of AV would have ensured a triumph for Yes2AV.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/17/the-euref-might-be-more-like-the-av-referendum-and-not-the-indyref/
It meant people didn't trust Cameron's latest renegotiation wheeze.
Crabb bisque anyone ?
Most other countries that voted against the EU they got asked to vote again by the EU until the correct answer was received at which point that was binding.
Be a bit bizarre if after all of this upheaval we then ourselves cut out the 40 year old EU middle man and asked ourselves to vote again....
Sillier things have happened of course.....
*) People thinking the solution that best fits them is the one to go for: "It allows *me* to get to the airport half an hour earlier!". Additionally, people ignoring the findings of the Davies Commission Report (*). The commission wasn't perfect, but it's what we've got.
*) Hyperloop as a viable transport mechanism. It makes Maglev look sane.
(*) https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/440316/airports-commission-final-report.pdf
There's a Sun hack tweet he's on the verge of pulling out.
Exit claws?
And we know quite a few Leave are backing May - Grayling and David Davis for starters.
So in reality May has about 210 to 220 "genuine" votes in a final showdown.
Crabb got 34 of those so today May should have been in the range 176 to 186.
She actually got 165.
Implies about 15 tacticals - compares to 18 per Nick Watt.
It really does not surprise me why you are not familiar with this most basic democratic principle.
There may just have been 18 highly sensible May supporters who organised it themselves - or even just did it individually.
See previous post.
It doesn't look good for Wolfe's chances in UKIP does it?
He came back and tried to sell a pup ( runt of the litter). The people saw it for what it was ....
He was utterly foxed from that point on. Regrettably the EU will now probably reform but it should and could have done this previously if they had only listened. They didn't.
The fault for this lies entirely with the EU. It just does.
May 210 .. Leadsom 85 .. Gove 35
Having made a manifesto pledge of a referendum in 2015 in an attempt to stop the rise of UKIP, Cameron unexpectedly won a majority and given the splits in the Tory party he had no choice but to stick to his pledge.
PMQ's and Chilcot tomorrow. Co-ordianate with HM Queen's diary. Friday or early next week.
For Remain to have any chance, they needed to somehow present Remain as the anti-establishment choice. The day they decided to present a vote for Remain as an endorsement for the way the economy currently works, was the day the campaign was lost.
May herself backed Remain. That's the stamp.
He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.
'So, 199 Tory MP's are remain. Add to that the Labour Party, the LD's, Gibraltar, the Nats, the entire House of Lords and Delia Smith.
And the leading Tory Brexiters- Leadsom and Johnson didn't believe in it.
I just don't get how this all went so horribly wrong.'
The little people spoke.
Charles moved to the squalor of NW10 and Mrs JackW cancelled a trip to the States.
Stephen Crabb, of course, is more of a Leviticus kind of guy.
'Mazing. Much discussion about the best mode of transport to link two airports. May I 'umbly suggest some sort of aircraft perhaps?'
A few years ago there was a helicopter service, don't know why it stopped.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/05/inside-rafs-new-cam-force-one-vip-jet-for-ministers-and-royals/
I preferred Phil Collins Genesis to Peter Gabriel Genesis
Of course remain were telling the truth about the EU. Of course they were.... Yes who would ever doubt anything the EU does.
Sadly in my 40 years of experience with the EU it's always been lies , more lies and fudges with unelected officials and gravy trains unending. It started as the EEC and morphed into the EU. I would politely suggest finally the people saw though this and finally had enough. They gave the EU a kick up their collective Arse.
They are now at least taking notice sadly too little to late.
outcomes whether good or bad just don't feck with the people. Most importantly never ever threaten them.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/05/sterlings-collapse-problematic-for-a-britain-living-beyond-its-means?CMP=share_btn_tw
What might, I say might, have changed is that voters are less susceptible to the spin because they have heard all the crap before. In many areas of life I think it is generally acknowledged that people are much less likely to accept the voice of "authority". From coppers giving evidence in court upwards, trust in our establishment has collapsed. We are far more sceptical, and for good reason - we have been misled/lied to far too often.
So now politicians trying to sell a message and so-called experts (those who have got it wrong so often before) are struggling to get a hearing. If a person can see what is happening in his/her own community a politician/expert telling them they are wrong because the statistics say something else no longer cuts much ice.
The stupidity of the Brexiters will never cease to amaze.
Next I will hear someone voted Brexit because they want Man Utd to win the league.
But the pic records it accurately, Liam Fox eliminated
I'd love to see some of our great scientists working on transport problems, it's not impossible to get a Hyperloop or Maglev up and running, and between the two busiest airports in the country would be an ideal place to start.
It seems we're scared as a country of developing new technology, preferring old and tested solutions to pushing the boundaries. Maybe we should ask the F1 teams for advise on how to push technological boundaries, they seem quite good at it from where I'm sitting.
Hopefully Mrs May will have the new runway as her first announcement as PM. We need to show the world we're open for business and that's a good starting point.
If also seems clear, as far as I can see, that nobody negotiating in the Autumn/Winter wanted to be doing it ( Cameron,Merkel,Tusk, Hollande, let alone Juncker who clearly regards the British as he would an eggy fart in a lift), and nobody remotely took the possibility seriously that we the British people, would actually go and do the deed.
'He didn't have to call the referendum for 2016. That was his fundamental error. The Guardian story today discusses his reasons, but he really should have delayed.'
He didn't need to accept such a crap deal and to let the EU know whatever deal they came up with he would still recommend.
Leave won, time to look to the future and see what our politicians can do with the hand they've been dealt.