I see from the Times that Bill Cash is threatening to go to the High Court if he disagrees with the outcome of the MPs ballot... should he not be encouraging others to be prepared to accept the outcome of the democratic process. After all, that seems to be the principle being cited, ad nauseum, by the Brexiteers since 24/6
So we are supposed to be responsible for every single nutjob in the country? People demonstrated against Brexit yesterday, Cash is throwing his toys out of the pram for God knows what reason today, Leadsom can't remember things she said three years ago...all part of the daily rough and tumble in this country. Don't care, won't care.
If Leadsom wins and give Farage any kind of role I'll burn my membership and cancel my direct debit. There is no way I'll ever be in a party which has anything to do with an odious character like that.
I think the next PM, whoever it is, should get Mr Farage some recognition in the 2019/2020 honours list. We wouldn't have had the referendum without UKIP and Mr Farage.
ARE YOU SURE OR ARE YOU JUST RELYING ON THE BBC FOR YOUR INTERNATIONAL NEWS!
See this from a column in The National yesterday
"I lived in Spain for almost two decades, am fluent in Spanish and speak passable Catalan... . I follow Spanish politics almost as closely as I follow Scottish politics. So this week has been interesting as we’ve seen the resurrection of some of the old scare stories from the 2014 independence referendum campaign, particularly those relating to the supposed Spanish veto on Scottish membership of the EU.
Rajoy said quite categorically that if the UK leaves the EU, then Scotland leaves with it. He has ruled out any possibility of Scotland managing to remain a part of the EU while also remaining a part of the UK. He also said that the EU cannot enter negotiations with a part of a state so that it can remain within the EU even though the state it is a part of has just voted to leave. But Rajoy said nothing at all about the European status of an independent Scotland.
Despite the fact that all this has been reported in the Unionist media as a snub for Sturgeon and a blow for the independence campaign, it is nothing of the sort. It’s extremely bad news for those in the Scottish Labour party and the Scottish LibDems who were hoping that Scotland could negotiate EU membership while avoiding another independence referendum.
That option lies dead in the water before it even got out of port. Rajoy torpedoed it.
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
Hannan believes in whatever his interlocutor believes. More specifically, he tailors his speech to gain maximum acceptance from the audience. He told a US audience he wanted to see the NHS demolished, a statement he will not make to a UK audience. He used to believe in freedom of movement until it became unpopular to say so in the UK, so he then started using the phrase "immigration controls" (or variants thereof), leading his audience to believe he meant "immigration limits", even though they don't mean the same thing.
He also refuses to understand that reasonable people may object to this. When he was criticised for saying his position was LEAVE but no decrease in immigration, he blamed the furore on REMAINers, despite the fact that plenty LEAVErs were upset as well. He blamed the unpopularity of the phrase "Anglosphere" on left wingers, even tho' Tony Abbott rejected the phrase because of its Anglocentrism.
In Pratchett terms, he has a billiard-ball mind: unclouded by doubt, allowing no new thought to enter.
Assuming that May is one of the two candidates on the Conservative leadership ballot, would Conservative members with a vote on this site vote for her, a REMAINER, or the alternative, almost certainly a LEAVER?
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Who's your current favourite?
I prefer Gove, but happy with Leadsom. Fox is a no-no after Werrity, and Crabb is a no-name with no serious career before politics either. He's pretty.
Interesting article in the Sunday Times on trade negotiators. Matches up with what ice heard as well. Less than 100 in the employ of the government and less than 50 who specialise in EU trade law and could handle negotiating a new trade deal which wouldn't leave us with nasty surprises in the deal.
The Times article estimates that there are less than 200 people in the world qualified to negotiate for us. I would guess that many of them are currently working for the US in the TTIP, so if it is dead then we should be able to recruit them to bolster our position. I've also heard anecdotally that the EU trade negotiators are a bit of a second rate team and are prone to errors so we need to ensure we have the best people on our side.
And at the same time who's going to be negotiating all the other deals with ROW that will be "ready to go at the moment of Brexit"? It's good that the electorate were told about all these barriers to quick agreement on new deals when they were voting to leave the EU.
Perhaps it's time to show some realism about all this and recognise that the process of leaving the EU needs to be a decade long process, and the Leavers are just going to have to put up with the possibility that they are going to have to rely on the settled will of the British people sustaining through a couple of full General Electoral cycles in the meantime...
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
I don't think that's helpful.
She needs to negotiate what she believes is the best possible deal (presumably involving a compromise on FoM).
And then put that to a vote - either accept her proposal or go for completely out (on WTO terms).
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
I don't think that's helpful.
She needs to negotiate what she believes is the best possible deal (presumably involving a compromise on FoM).
And then put that to a vote - either accept her proposal or go for completely out (on WTO terms).
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Yes I think that's what we're looking at. I'll try and look for my tl;dr on Brexit from our report but so far we've been pretty much on the ball.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
ARE YOU SURE OR ARE YOU JUST RELYING ON THE BBC FOR YOUR INTERNATIONAL NEWS!
See this from a column in The National yesterday
"I lived in Spain for almost two decades, am fluent in Spanish and speak passable Catalan... . I follow Spanish politics almost as closely as I follow Scottish politics. So this week has been interesting as we’ve seen the resurrection of some of the old scare stories from the 2014 independence referendum campaign, particularly those relating to the supposed Spanish veto on Scottish membership of the EU.
Rajoy said quite categorically that if the UK leaves the EU, then Scotland leaves with it. He has ruled out any possibility of Scotland managing to remain a part of the EU while also remaining a part of the UK. He also said that the EU cannot enter negotiations with a part of a state so that it can remain within the EU even though the state it is a part of has just voted to leave. But Rajoy said nothing at all about the European status of an independent Scotland.
Despite the fact that all this has been reported in the Unionist media as a snub for Sturgeon and a blow for the independence campaign, it is nothing of the sort. It’s extremely bad news for those in the Scottish Labour party and the Scottish LibDems who were hoping that Scotland could negotiate EU membership while avoiding another independence referendum.
That option lies dead in the water before it even got out of port. Rajoy torpedoed it.
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
Spain's position has always been that an independent Scotland could apply for membership of the EU and that the application would be treated in the way any other application would be treated. In practical terms, that would mean relatively swift re-entry as long as Scotland agreed to Schengen and the introduction of the Euro.
No country would agree to Scotland taking over the UK's membership and Scotland would not want to. Why would Scotland want to pay what the UK pays now? Why would other member states agree to Scotland getting the UK's weight of votes or a guaranteed commissioner?
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Why? The people keep saying 'No second referendum', under any circumstances apparently, and if we'd wanted options on the ballot we could have. Any new referendum or GE would just be LeaveHard and LeaveLite, and the latter would be portrayed as being essentially Remain, meaning a rehash of the same old arguments.
Assuming that May is one of the two candidates on the Conservative leadership ballot, would Conservative members with a vote on this site vote for her, a REMAINER, or the alternative, almost certainly a LEAVER?
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Who's your current favourite?
I prefer Gove, but happy with Leadsom. Fox is a no-no after Werrity, and Crabb is a no-name with no serious career before politics either. He's pretty.
MacBeth Gove is unelectable within the Tory party IMHO. As Rawnsley puts it, they don't mind a rat, but not a double rat.
LOL! Germans about to pull the plug on Mr Jucnker?
Cameron was right on Juncker. Cameron was right on the migrant crisis. Cameron was right on the need for EU reform
Merkel ignored Cameron every step of the way and forced through Juncker, took the wrong path on the migrant crisis and blocked any meaningful EU reform.
Just imagine if Merkel had taken Cameron seriously every step of the way? There is no way we'd have voted to Leave, the migrant crisis would have played out completely differently and Juncker could have been junked.
That was the fundamental problem with our membership of the EU: no one liked Cassandra
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Not being found dead in a ditch within six months, that department is somewhere to go and die unless you are very chummy with the leadership. Which May was not.
Interesting article in the Sunday Times on trade negotiators. Matches up with what ice heard as well. Less than 100 in the employ of the government and less than 50 who specialise in EU trade law and could handle negotiating a new trade deal which wouldn't leave us with nasty surprises in the deal.
The Times article estimates that there are less than 200 people in the world qualified to negotiate for us. I would guess that many of them are currently working for the US in the TTIP, so if it is dead then we should be able to recruit them to bolster our position. I've also heard anecdotally that the EU trade negotiators are a bit of a second rate team and are prone to errors so we need to ensure we have the best people on our side.
And at the same time who's going to be negotiating all the other deals with ROW that will be "ready to go at the moment of Brexit"? It's good that the electorate were told about all these barriers to quick agreement on new deals when they were voting to leave the EU.
Perhaps it's time to show some realism about all this and recognise that the process of leaving the EU needs to be a decade long process, and the Leavers are just going to have to put up with the possibility that they are going to have to rely on the settled will of the British people sustaining through a couple of full General Electoral cycles in the meantime...
So, we need more immigrants to help us negotiate our way out of Europe. Another example of the absurdity of Brexit.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Not being found dead in a ditch within six months, that department is somewhere to go and die unless you are very chummy with the leadership. Which May was not.
Interesting article in the Sunday Times on trade negotiators. Matches up with what ice heard as well. Less than 100 in the employ of the government and less than 50 who specialise in EU trade law and could handle negotiating a new trade deal which wouldn't leave us with nasty surprises in the deal.
The Times article estimates that there are less than 200 people in the world qualified to negotiate for us. I would guess that many of them are currently working for the US in the TTIP, so if it is dead then we should be able to recruit them to bolster our position. I've also heard anecdotally that the EU trade negotiators are a bit of a second rate team and are prone to errors so we need to ensure we have the best people on our side.
And at the same time who's going to be negotiating all the other deals with ROW that will be "ready to go at the moment of Brexit"? It's good that the electorate were told about all these barriers to quick agreement on new deals when they were voting to leave the EU.
Perhaps it's time to show some realism about all this and recognise that the process of leaving the EU needs to be a decade long process, and the Leavers are just going to have to put up with the possibility that they are going to have to rely on the settled will of the British people sustaining through a couple of full General Electoral cycles in the meantime...
Well I think EEA/EFTA is the only realistic what forwards. It gives our small team of negotiators time to recruit and time to open up trade deals with non-EU countries and we can stay in the single market which will reassure businesses who are looking to invest. From the EEA we can then negotiate a bespoke trade deal or just keep things as they are.
LOL! Germans about to pull the plug on Mr Jucnker?
Cameron was right on Juncker. Cameron was right on the migrant crisis. Cameron was right on the need for EU reform
Merkel ignored Cameron every step of the way and forced through Juncker, took the wrong path on the migrant crisis and blocked any meaningful EU reform.
Just imagine if Merkel had taken Cameron seriously every step of the way? There is no way we'd have voted to Leave, the migrant crisis would have played out completely differently and Juncker could have been junked.
That was the fundamental problem with our membership of the EU: no one liked Cassandra
If Leadsom wins and give Farage any kind of role I'll burn my membership and cancel my direct debit. There is no way I'll ever be in a party which has anything to do with an odious character like that.
I think the next PM, whoever it is, should get Mr Farage some recognition in the 2019/2020 honours list. We wouldn't have had the referendum without UKIP and Mr Farage.
True. Farage is widely disliked by the middle classes and for good reason: I genuinely don't like him either. But he gave up a good job in the 90's and devoted his time to campaigning for a cause that twenty years ago seemed laughable yet gained 17million votes in 2016. He is an expression of the British political system enabling comment from a wide variety of sources.
Ultimately the fault for the current clusterfuck lies not with Farage, who never lied to us nor dissembled. It lies with clever people who thought we could have the penny and the bun, and who are now finding out we are about to lose both.
Gove is the preferred candidate of both Carswell and Hannan
So the people who have mostly loudly protested it is not about immigation and we should stay in the EEA and keep free movement are backing the one candidate who would take us out of the common market and end free movement?
I Know. Sounds crazy. How can you prioritise Freedom of Movement and vote for Gove?
Because they don't. Or at least not as controlled by the EU. Hannan is a communitarian, he believes the control of immigration is the business of the institutions of the UK and no one else. If we then elect a government who choses to let lots of people in, that is our business, if we dont like the result, we can then kick that government out.
We repeatedly elected governments that were fine with unlimited immigration from the EU.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
I have to say I feel pretty annoyed at Tony Blair's comment on Sky News that the 48% feel deeply disenfranchised. And is he seriously suggesting that Labour can be the voice of Remain when the party's political backbone - safe seats in former mining and industrial areas voted heavily for Leave.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Why? The people keep saying 'No second referendum', under any circumstances apparently, and if we'd wanted options on the ballot we could have. Any new referendum or GE would just be LeaveHard and LeaveLite, and the latter would be portrayed as being essentially Remain, meaning a rehash of the same old arguments.
There is no need to decide now whether we need a 2nd referendum. The political circumstances will decide that later down the track (2018?, maybe even later). As a Remainer I believe the level of economic damage will be such in two or three years time that there will be a general clamour for a way out of the result that keeps as many people happy as possible but gives us back the single market.
May should play for time - it seems at least possible that Freedom of Movement will be tweaked or even abandoned by EU in coming few years as other countries kick up a fuss or elect governments that don't want it (France next?).
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Let's throw this out to the wider forum. So far one person has volunteered 'keeping her job'.
Surely there must be something else? One single notable success?
I've just had a series of round robin calls with my sibs/Mum, as we're dealing with the serious case of The Subsiding Back Wall in Mum's garden.
As a public service, I asked all three how long they reckon it'll take to disentangle ourselves from the EU and for immigration to be under control. Answers: 7 years, 10 years and 15 years. That should be today's exam question in my view.
If people, en masse, think it's two years and we're done, then I think the politics gets really very difficult.
I have to say I feel pretty annoyed at Tony Blair's comment on Sky News that the 48% feel deeply disenfranchised. And is he seriously suggesting that Labour can be the voice of Remain when the party's political backbone - safe seats in former mining and industrial areas voted heavily for Leave.
Odd talk. Are people disenfranchised whenever they are on the losing side of a vote?
As for Labour being the voice of Remain, I assume he meant of Remainers, since not even the LDs are saying they'll be speaking for Remain (they're on Rejoin, though I suppose if we did have a GE before the exit they could campaign on a Remain platform), and good luck if he thinks those northern heartlands will accept anything other than a Leave position, so those Remainers need someone advocating the least damaging Leave possible.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Why? The people keep saying 'No second referendum', under any circumstances apparently, and if we'd wanted options on the ballot we could have. Any new referendum or GE would just be LeaveHard and LeaveLite, and the latter would be portrayed as being essentially Remain, meaning a rehash of the same old arguments.
There is no need to decide now whether we need a 2nd referendum. The political circumstances will decide that later down the track (2018?, maybe even later). As a Remainer I believe the level of economic damage will be such in two or three years time that there will be a general clamour for a way out of the result that keeps as many people happy as possible but gives us back the single market.
May should play for time - it seems at least possible that Freedom of Movement will be tweaked or even abandoned by EU in coming few years as other countries kick up a fuss or elect governments that don't want it (France next?).
I can see that being possible - though I'm not sure how much time she'll be able to play for. I know she's said no article 50 this year, but I have doubts that can be sustained, and I think Leadsom's flaws could be readily ignored by many who yearn for the certainty of declaring sooner rather than later.
So Ms. May now sez it's ok to go slow on Brexit. How slow? And will she maneuver to halt Brexit in it's tracks? Her true heart speaks, and I don't trust her one bit.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
More seriously the Home Office being the graveyard for politicians down the decades is better seen as a department where you keep awful possibilities off the table as far as is possible. And in that she's enjoyed success.
That said she has developed an authoritarian streak that seems to be hard wired into modern Home Secretaries, albeit they see terrible possibilities that we don't. It happened to Labour incumbents too.
Just seen the full Marr with Gove and Leadsom - Brutal but these are the tests that potential PM's have to face. Gove will struggle on and the Leadsom/Farage axis is a terrible error from her. She should have squashed that suggestion totally.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Not being found dead in a ditch within six months, that department is somewhere to go and die unless you are very chummy with the leadership. Which May was not.
That's it is it?
For me that is good enough, I'm sure someone more hardcore could list things off but I really don't care. She is a placeholder leader, that is all and against the backdrop of her competitors being able to have managed a career killing department for a few years is a boon.
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
As Sturgeon begs in vain for the EU for give her something, I sincerely hope she has enough brains to beg them at the same time to give the UK a super sweet deal. Otherwise she's going to be offering the Scots a vote on whether they want borders at Gretna and a huge trade barrier with their one and only massive partner - England. I don't think she's that smart to be honest. She's way over-rated.
But are you one of the 26% that wants an end to FOM or one of the 26% that wants to retain the single market?
Is that 26% of 52%? We need Venn diagrams!
Should have been more options on the ballot and an AV vote! As it stands 26% of voters are going to get what they want after conning another 26% to vote Leave by promising them something they are not going to get. There is no getting away from that regardless of how the single-market Leavers try to spin it.
If Leadsom wins and give Farage any kind of role I'll burn my membership and cancel my direct debit. There is no way I'll ever be in a party which has anything to do with an odious character like that.
I think the next PM, whoever it is, should get Mr Farage some recognition in the 2019/2020 honours list. We wouldn't have had the referendum without UKIP and Mr Farage.
Farage will be out of a job as an MEP in a couple of years - I can't see UKIP surviving without him...or indeed with him. The party's finances will fall through the floor and he won't be able to draw his fat MEP salary and expenses after Brexit.
At a local level UKIP are a reg-bag of oddballs and malcontents held together with a common goal - that's been secured...the adhesive that binds them has gone and so too will the party.
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
Yes, the lack of mention of a veto from Rajoy was the most telling detail about any of the EU/Scotland discussion since Brexit.
For the EU there is also the added bonus that considering Scotland the continuing state after an Independence vote allows the EU to dictate the timetable and effectively bypass the UK delaying Article 50 and trying to hold the EU to ransom.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
Scotland voted to remain
As did the great people of London.
And Warwick.
Will Warwick seek a meeting with Junker to apply to stay in the EU?
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
Do the EU have to ratify the deal before we do? It is not difficult to foresee a scenario where we put an agreement to the vote, approve it in a referendum, only for a couple of EU countries to do the same and in a collective "stuff you" reject it!
'The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.'
A grandstanding trip to Brussels to have the Spanish PM tell her Spain will veto Scotland joining the EU.
Absolute blunder might be closer to reality.
Can you point out where Rajoy said Spain would veto Scotland joining the EU?
Hint to save you time: you can't.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen to Scotland is they did join, even if they were allowed to somehow keep the pound they would have a huge budget deficit to fund and would be a net contributor to the EU budget to boot. I bet those first few years would be shaky.
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
Clarkson's tantrum is exquisitely enjoyable. Thanks for sharing it, Scott. It made my day even better.
It is just what you would expect from that odious buffoon, easy for a thick millionaire to insult ordinary people.
Clarkson's singing for his supper. He wants that knighthood something awful.
That's a thought? Will David Cameron have a resignation honours list?
The tragedy of the referendum is it means TSE won't be getting that peerage.
I turned down a life peerage last year, I wanted a Royal Dukedom, the Duke of Sheffield or maybe the Duke of Yorkshire
Both are already taken - Baron Sheffield is a cadet of the Marquess of Normanby and Yorkshire is a Royal Dukedom (for a Royal Dukedom they won't split territorial rights in the way they did with Devon/Devonshire)
Assuming that May is one of the two candidates on the Conservative leadership ballot, would Conservative members with a vote on this site vote for her, a REMAINER, or the alternative, almost certainly a LEAVER?
Only the LEAVER. The establishment are backing May and they clearly see her as most likely to keep us in.
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
Why spend 2 years negotiating a deal and then put it to a public vote which might reject it?
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
More seriously the Home Office being the graveyard for politicians down the decades is better seen as a department where you keep awful possibilities off the table as far as is possible. And in that she's enjoyed success.
That said she has developed an authoritarian streak that seems to be hard wired into modern Home Secretaries, albeit they see terrible possibilities that we don't. It happened to Labour incumbents too.
Just seen the full Marr with Gove and Leadsom - Brutal but these are the tests that potential PM's have to face. Gove will struggle on and the Leadsom/Farage axis is a terrible error from her. She should have squashed that suggestion totally.
I don't disagree with any of this.
It's just quite remarkable that you can list no policy successes whatsoever from her tenure as Home Secretary. Her career is a total success vacuum.
The only 'positives' I can bring to mind when I think of Theresa May are when she bopped the Tories in kitten heels, or when she bopped the Police Federation - etc. Everyone got all excited, just like they do when Cameron makes a nice speech. But like Cameron, there was no follow up - nothing there. Having just had a wind-up mouth with no substance as PM, and with the country a total wreck (regardless of Brexit), I don't think we can afford someone else like that.
However do you mean in Schengen like the Irish Republic or membership of the Euro like Sweden?
All to be negotiated. My guess is that Scotland would get a good deal - a much better one than it would have got if it had voted Yes. What's important to remember about Spain is that other parties would not be as opposed to Scotland being an EU member state as the PP is. And the PP is not a majority. Scotland's situation is no longer comparable to Catalonia's. It is being taken out of the EU against its will. Catalonia is not and never will be.
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
Why spend 2 years negotiating a deal and then put it to a public vote which might reject it?
Yes; what is the fall back if the people say 'no'?
She needs to negotiate what she believes is the best possible deal (presumably involving a compromise on FoM).And then put that to a vote - either accept her proposal or go for completely out (on WTO terms).
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
Leaving aside the lizard analogy for a moment, there's an obvious problem with this. We've just had a six-month campaign that was poorly planned and funded, not preceded by a softening-up campaign, and faced a critical press and a better-funded better-organised campaign that lied like a bastard and got away with it.
Holding a second referendum is easy: winning it is hard. At the very least it will need a shedload of money, way more than last time. REMAIN City firms were parsimonious in UKREF1, and LEAVE ones were not. Will they be more generous for UKREF2? I know stats but you know money, so this is your field not mine. Will the money men turn up this time?
No country would agree to Scotland taking over the UK's membership and Scotland would not want to. Why would Scotland want to pay what the UK pays now? Why would other member states agree to Scotland getting the UK's weight of votes or a guaranteed commissioner?
The UK contribution is based on its population and GDP as it changes. It is not a fixed sum, otherwise it would require treaty change should the UK suffer a significant movement in GDP or population. Such as the "prosperity bonus" when Osborne agreed to pay the EU an extra £2bn.
Inheriting the UK membership would immediately result in the contribution, vote share, etc being pro-rated without any treaty change.
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
Clarkson's tantrum is exquisitely enjoyable. Thanks for sharing it, Scott. It made my day even better.
It is just what you would expect from that odious buffoon, easy for a thick millionaire to insult ordinary people.
Clarkson's singing for his supper. He wants that knighthood something awful.
That's a thought? Will David Cameron have a resignation honours list?
The tragedy of the referendum is it means TSE won't be getting that peerage.
I turned down a life peerage last year, I wanted a Royal Dukedom, the Duke of Sheffield or maybe the Duke of Yorkshire
Both are already taken - Baron Sheffield is a cadet of the Marquess of Normanby and Yorkshire is a Royal Dukedom (for a Royal Dukedom they won't split territorial rights in the way they did with Devon/Devonshire)
Prescott speaking a lot of good sense on The Daily Politics. Says the PLP expected Corbyn to resign and that has not happened and talk of a separate PLP party is ridiculous, the members and MPs have to come together to fight the Tories otherwise they could be out for another 18 years. He also branded ridiculous attempts by some Corbynites to brand Blair a 'war criminal' after Chilcott. He looks like a colossus compared to the present leader and shadow cabinet and that is saying something!
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
Yes, the lack of mention of a veto from Rajoy was the most telling detail about any of the EU/Scotland discussion since Brexit.
For the EU there is also the added bonus that considering Scotland the continuing state after an Independence vote allows the EU to dictate the timetable and effectively bypass the UK delaying Article 50 and trying to hold the EU to ransom.
So they would fasttrack Scotland in, breaking their own rules on membership and pissing off Spain, just to spite the rUK. Yeah.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Not being found dead in a ditch within six months, that department is somewhere to go and die unless you are very chummy with the leadership. Which May was not.
That's it is it?
For me that is good enough, I'm sure someone more hardcore could list things off but I really don't care.
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
Yes, the lack of mention of a veto from Rajoy was the most telling detail about any of the EU/Scotland discussion since Brexit.
For the EU there is also the added bonus that considering Scotland the continuing state after an Independence vote allows the EU to dictate the timetable and effectively bypass the UK delaying Article 50 and trying to hold the EU to ransom.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
But this idea of Scotland being the continuing state is so absurd that I have no idea where it came from. Wishful thinking to try and square the circle, I guess.
Assuming that May is one of the two candidates on the Conservative leadership ballot, would Conservative members with a vote on this site vote for her, a REMAINER, or the alternative, almost certainly a LEAVER?
The establishment are backing May and they clearly see her as most likely to keep us in.
Both sides in this are made up of people in the establishment.
"The Swiss are desperate to strike a deal in order to give its politicians time to pass the necessary laws to meet a February 2017 deadline imposed by a legally binding referendum in 2014." "The European Union is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
If Leadsom wins and give Farage any kind of role I'll burn my membership and cancel my direct debit. There is no way I'll ever be in a party which has anything to do with an odious character like that.
I think the next PM, whoever it is, should get Mr Farage some recognition in the 2019/2020 honours list. We wouldn't have had the referendum without UKIP and Mr Farage.
Farage will be out of a job as an MEP in a couple of years - I can't see UKIP surviving without him...or indeed with him. The party's finances will fall through the floor and he won't be able to draw his fat MEP salary and expenses after Brexit.
At a local level UKIP are a reg-bag of oddballs and malcontents held together with a common goal - that's been secured...the adhesive that binds them has gone and so too will the party.
Brexit doesn't mean that the party will vanish, thats only one of it's goals. It may however change it's name and it's leader. Britain needs a decent third party to keep the two main parties kosher.
It is increasingly clear that ever since the Scottish referendum kicked all these questions off, that we are living in a ridiculous world where political debate in being dominated, and completely undermined by a widespread belief/assumption that fundamental constitutional changes that realistically will take decades if not longer can be wrapped up in a couple of years if not quicker.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Not being found dead in a ditch within six months, that department is somewhere to go and die unless you are very chummy with the leadership. Which May was not.
That's it is it?
For me that is good enough, I'm sure someone more hardcore could list things off but I really don't care.
How utterly bizarre.
And her fans are meant to be 'serious Tories'.
I'm not a "fan", nor am I a "Tory".
She will do for now for me, it is a practical move not an ideological one.
@faisalislam: If Leadsom is allowed to change her mind between 2013 and 2016, then presumably no probs if she/ others change it back between 2016 & 2019?
In principle, there is nothing wrong with changing one's mind any number of times, provided the facts on the ground warrant it. Indeed, not to change one's mind when presented with new facts that undermine one's current position is the unforgivable stance.
How this pertains to Leadsom's particular case, I don't know. I have not yet heard her reason for changing position.
Could facts change to make Leavers become Remainers? Yes (e.g. the other 27 suddenly believing the UK's vision of Europe is better after all, or Germany getting religion on proper reform). They haven't for me yet and I don't expect them to. But if they do, I'll be up for responding to the new circumstances, and would expect my politicians to be also, regardless of whether they have previously gone from Remainer to Leaver.
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
Do the EU have to ratify the deal before we do? It is not difficult to foresee a scenario where we put an agreement to the vote, approve it in a referendum, only for a couple of EU countries to do the same and in a collective "stuff you" reject it!
My understanding is that the exit deal under Article 50 is QMV, but a trade deal outside of Article 50 requires unanimity. (Hence the Dutch rejecting the Ukranian deal scuppers it.)
So, if we are to get a deal, it must be done quickly and under Article 50. Otherwise, it's likely to end up in purgatory for a considerable period, as every country starts demanding some little piece that is incredibly important to them.
However do you mean in Schengen like the Irish Republic or membership of the Euro like Sweden?
Schengen has pretty much permanent wiggle room. The Euro doesn't (in theory) but does in practice. Countries have to meet the four convergence criteria and derogate until they do.
If an independent Scotland went for sterlingisation, it would be a miracle if they met the convergence criteria.
From the EU's site:
1. CPI no more than 1.5 points above the best three members of the EZ. 2. Deficit of no more than 3%. 3. Government debt of no more than 60% GDP. 4. Two years in ERM II with no significant deviation.
I see from the Times that Bill Cash is threatening to go to the High Court if he disagrees with the outcome of the MPs ballot... should he not be encouraging others to be prepared to accept the outcome of the democratic process. After all, that seems to be the principle being cited, ad nauseum, by the Brexiteers since 24/6
Does he not have the right to challenge the implementation of that democratic process if he believes it to be flawed or biased ?
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
I'm starting to wonder if she'll make the final two.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
Is there a weight lighter than featherweight?
Yes, it's called The Burnhamweight
Ha, ha :-)
Leadsom is Burnhamweight.
I think she's sub Burnham.
That loan to Barings and her past comments on the disaster Brexit would be, would make Burnham blush.
However do you mean in Schengen like the Irish Republic or membership of the Euro like Sweden?
All to be negotiated. My guess is that Scotland would get a good deal - a much better one than it would have got if it had voted Yes. What's important to remember about Spain is that other parties would not be as opposed to Scotland being an EU member state as the PP is. And the PP is not a majority. Scotland's situation is no longer comparable to Catalonia's. It is being taken out of the EU against its will. Catalonia is not and never will be.
At a time when the EU is in trouble they will take on a new member with a better deal than a lot of current members have? Seriously? Good luck with that.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
Scotland voted to remain
As did the great people of London.
And Warwick.
The Ballot Paper asked us whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
I see Leadsom will enacted A50 immediately on becoming leader. So, another reason why she is unfit to be PM in this dangerous time. Add this one to the charge of extreme flip-flop-ism on the Burnham scale.
You mean you think she is unfit to be leader because you dont want anyone that might considered enacting A50 under any circumstances.
I have to say I feel pretty annoyed at Tony Blair's comment on Sky News that the 48% feel deeply disenfranchised. And is he seriously suggesting that Labour can be the voice of Remain when the party's political backbone - safe seats in former mining and industrial areas voted heavily for Leave.
67% of Labour voters voted to Remain. It would have been far more if the current leader had an ounce of Blair's political skill.
No May vote for me. She's been tested and found wanting.
Indeed .... May has been found wanting of :
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back. 2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years. 3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights. 4. Not going for the God botherer vote 5. Failing to find a gay cure. 6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations. 7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone 8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ???? 9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
What would you say have been May's biggest achievements as Home Secretary Jack?
Let's throw this out to the wider forum. So far one person has volunteered 'keeping her job'.
Surely there must be something else? One single notable success?
Statesmanship - or my preferred version of it - is a big, boring, negative: keeping the shit away from the fan, and steering the Titanic round the iceberg. So your question fails to resonate.
@faisalislam: If Leadsom is allowed to change her mind between 2013 and 2016, then presumably no probs if she/ others change it back between 2016 & 2019?
Could facts change to make Leavers become Remainers? Yes (e.g. the other 27 suddenly believing the UK's vision of Europe is better after all, or Germany getting religion on proper reform). They haven't for me yet and I don't expect them to. But if they do, I'll be up for responding to the new circumstances, and would expect my politicians to be also, regardless of whether they have previously gone from Remainer to Leaver.
I would be willing to consider changing position if the facts change, but it would be very hard for any Leaver politicians to do so. Oh, the cries of betrayal, even if the EU capitulated and said they'd also make the Queen Empress of Europe.
No-one likes having to go into a nuanced explanation of why they have changed position, even if the facts justify it, and that goes triple for politicians.
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
I'm starting to wonder if she'll make the final two.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
Is there a weight lighter than featherweight?
Yes, it's called The Burnhamweight
Ha, ha :-)
Leadsom is Burnhamweight.
I think she's sub Burnham.
That loan to Barings and her past comments on the disaster Brexit would be, would make Burnham blush.
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
The Scots, like the rest of us, voted on whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
Scotland voted to remain
As did the great people of London.
The Ballot Paper asked us whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
I'm starting to wonder if she'll make the final two.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
Is there a weight lighter than featherweight?
Yes, it's called The Burnhamweight
Ha, ha :-)
Leadsom is Burnhamweight.
I think she's sub Burnham.
That loan to Barings and her past comments on the disaster Brexit would be, would make Burnham blush.
I have to say I feel pretty annoyed at Tony Blair's comment on Sky News that the 48% feel deeply disenfranchised. And is he seriously suggesting that Labour can be the voice of Remain when the party's political backbone - safe seats in former mining and industrial areas voted heavily for Leave.
On Sky News Blair did not say there should automatically be a second referendum etc but that if the economy suffers as a result of BREXIT, large businesses start to base themselves elsewhere etc then we are a sovereign country and if voters change their mind then we can reconsider. If we don't get an EFTA deal and the economy crashes he is not a mile out from what SeanT has been saying over recent days!
Aside from brexit issues I think people are becoming irritated by Junkers diplomatic incompetence.
Interfering with the Scottish situation was clearly out of order for a continent that relies on UK defence and intelligence capability.
I would guess Juncker will be dispensed with once there is a new UK PM and the negotiations are going to begin in earnest. Not only has he burned all his bridges as any kind of honest broker but his political decapitation will be a nice peace gesture to all sides and sub-factions.
It was the behaviour of a childish man whose only interest was inflaming the situation. He banned everyone from talking to us, then met up personally with Sturgeon.
First real politician from UK that he has had to meet with.
The Scots are very lucky to have Sturgeon. She has played an absolute blinder since the referendum result was announced.
Scotland voted to remain
As did the great people of London.
And Warwick.
The Ballot Paper asked us whether the UNITED KINGDOM should remain in or leave the European Union.
No country would agree to Scotland taking over the UK's membership and Scotland would not want to. Why would Scotland want to pay what the UK pays now? Why would other member states agree to Scotland getting the UK's weight of votes or a guaranteed commissioner?
The UK contribution is based on its population and GDP as it changes. It is not a fixed sum, otherwise it would require treaty change should the UK suffer a significant movement in GDP or population. Such as the "prosperity bonus" when Osborne agreed to pay the UK an extra £2bn.
Inheriting the UK membership would immediately result in the contribution, vote share, etc being pro-rated without any treaty change.
Then that is not the inheritance of the UK's membership. There would have to be negotiation. And the EU cannot negotiate terms of entry with a non-sovereign government. By far the best option for both sides is a Scottish independence vote followed by an application to join. This would essentially be fast-tracked as Scotland meets just about all criteria already - we are not talking Turkey here, so to speak. The only sticking points would be Schengen and the Euro, but as noted below there could be deals done on both (though Scottish membership of the Euro may actually make some sense now). The Brexit vote has most definitely moved things the SNP's way. Key to it all is that the Scottish and Catalonian situations are no longer analogous - though SNP politician would do well to drop the unqualified support for Catalonian independence.
But are you one of the 26% that wants an end to FOM or one of the 26% that wants to retain the single market?
Disingenuous.
We only know how many people voted to leave or remain in the EU. Its pure supposition that people who voted remain are happy with the single market, they might just as well being people swayed by Project Bullshit, or people loyal to Cameron.
Hannan believes in whatever his interlocutor believes. More specifically, he tailors his speech to gain maximum acceptance from the audience. He told a US audience he wanted to see the NHS demolished, a statement he will not make to a UK audience. He used to believe in freedom of movement until it became unpopular to say so in the UK, so he then started using the phrase "immigration controls" (or variants thereof), leading his audience to believe he meant "immigration limits", even though they don't mean the same thing.
He also refuses to understand that reasonable people may object to this. When he was criticised for saying his position was LEAVE but no decrease in immigration, he blamed the furore on REMAINers, despite the fact that plenty LEAVErs were upset as well. He blamed the unpopularity of the phrase "Anglosphere" on left wingers, even tho' Tony Abbott rejected the phrase because of its Anglocentrism.
In Pratchett terms, he has a billiard-ball mind: unclouded by doubt, allowing no new thought to enter.
Or you could read his book where he sets it out in some detail.
But are you one of the 26% that wants an end to FOM or one of the 26% that wants to retain the single market?
Disingenuous.
We only know how many people voted to leave or remain in the EU. Its pure supposition that people who voted remain are happy with the single market, they might just as well being people swayed by Project Bullshit, or people loyal to Cameron.
Possible. Just as its possible some in Leave will be willing to accept FOM to remain in the single market. Unless there's a GE, neither side can complain about the government deciding what it thinks is the best form of Leave.
But are you one of the 26% that wants an end to FOM or one of the 26% that wants to retain the single market?
Disingenuous.
We only know how many people voted to leave or remain in the EU. Its pure supposition that people who voted remain are happy with the single market, they might just as well being people swayed by Project Bullshit, or people loyal to Cameron.
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic
No shit.
What happens if we pick Leave 2, and EU says "non!" ?
It has to be a binary decision - deal or no deal - and so has to be negotiated in advance and then put for ratification
Do the EU have to ratify the deal before we do? It is not difficult to foresee a scenario where we put an agreement to the vote, approve it in a referendum, only for a couple of EU countries to do the same and in a collective "stuff you" reject it!
Then there is no deal anyway, so it's WTO.
That being said, an Article 50 deal is decided under QMV.
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
Clarkson's tantrum is exquisitely enjoyable. Thanks for sharing it, Scott. It made my day even better.
It is just what you would expect from that odious buffoon, easy for a thick millionaire to insult ordinary people.
Clarkson's singing for his supper. He wants that knighthood something awful.
That's a thought? Will David Cameron have a resignation honours list?
The tragedy of the referendum is it means TSE won't be getting that peerage.
I turned down a life peerage last year, I wanted a Royal Dukedom, the Duke of Sheffield or maybe the Duke of Yorkshire
Both are already taken - Baron Sheffield is a cadet of the Marquess of Normanby and Yorkshire is a Royal Dukedom (for a Royal Dukedom they won't split territorial rights in the way they did with Devon/Devonshire)
Fine, I'll take the newly created position of Viceroy of France, and I'll take an ordinary hereditary peerage with that and a God Calls Me God
I have to say I feel pretty annoyed at Tony Blair's comment on Sky News that the 48% feel deeply disenfranchised. And is he seriously suggesting that Labour can be the voice of Remain when the party's political backbone - safe seats in former mining and industrial areas voted heavily for Leave.
Every party was somewhat split, but there isn't any doubt that a large majority of current Labour voters supported Remain, as Blair says. The fact that areas which have traditionally voted Labour voted Leave doesn't alter that. Some of the Leaders are the labour minority and some no longer (if they ever did) support Labour.
Comments
Gods, a sibling was named Rain Joan of Arc Bottom.
john_zims
ARE YOU SURE OR ARE YOU JUST RELYING ON THE BBC FOR YOUR INTERNATIONAL NEWS!
See this from a column in The National yesterday
"I lived in Spain for almost two decades, am fluent in Spanish and speak passable Catalan...
.
I follow Spanish politics almost as closely as I follow Scottish politics. So this week has been interesting as we’ve seen the resurrection of some of the old scare stories from the 2014 independence referendum campaign, particularly those relating to the supposed Spanish veto on Scottish membership of the EU.
Rajoy said quite categorically that if the UK leaves the EU, then Scotland leaves with it. He has ruled out any possibility of Scotland managing to remain a part of the EU while also remaining a part of the UK. He also said that the EU cannot enter negotiations with a part of a state so that it can remain within the EU even though the state it is a part of has just voted to leave. But Rajoy said nothing at all about the European status of an independent Scotland.
Despite the fact that all this has been reported in the Unionist media as a snub for Sturgeon and a blow for the independence campaign, it is nothing of the sort. It’s extremely bad news for those in the Scottish Labour party and the Scottish LibDems who were hoping that Scotland could negotiate EU membership while avoiding another independence referendum.
That option lies dead in the water before it even got out of port. Rajoy torpedoed it.
Rajoy was notably silent on the possibility of Scotland holding a referendum and voting for independence before the Brexit occurs. In fact he ended his statement with the remark, “Whatever happens in the future, that’s not for me to say,” a comment which wasn’t reported in the British press. The Brexit won’t occur for at least two years after the UK Government invokes Article 50 and commences negotiations to leave the EU: if Scotland holds an independence referendum before then and votes for independence, we’re in a whole different game. Already the Belgian press is reporting that the EU is willing to allow Scotland to take over the UK’s EU membership, as long as we go for independence before Brexit."
There might be some of what he specifically refers to as "Darkies" in those outhouses of course?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3268164/Jeremy-Clarkson-moves-2-5million-country-estate-ex-wife-Frances-Cain-lives.html
Edit - I am a very big fan of Clarkson by the way.
1 Stabbing her closest friend in the back.
2. Not being Home Secretary for 10 years.
3. Making a launch speech lasting 40 days and 40 nights.
4. Not going for the God botherer vote
5. Failing to find a gay cure.
6. Not ruling out Farage in BREXIT negotiations.
7. Not securing the support of Mrs Bone
8. Forgetting about Liam Fox .... Who ????
9. Failing to get the support of over 300 MP's on the first ballot.
He also refuses to understand that reasonable people may object to this. When he was criticised for saying his position was LEAVE but no decrease in immigration, he blamed the furore on REMAINers, despite the fact that plenty LEAVErs were upset as well. He blamed the unpopularity of the phrase "Anglosphere" on left wingers, even tho' Tony Abbott rejected the phrase because of its Anglocentrism.
In Pratchett terms, he has a billiard-ball mind: unclouded by doubt, allowing no new thought to enter.
Perhaps it's time to show some realism about all this and recognise that the process of leaving the EU needs to be a decade long process, and the Leavers are just going to have to put up with the possibility that they are going to have to rely on the settled will of the British people sustaining through a couple of full General Electoral cycles in the meantime...
She needs to negotiate what she believes is the best possible deal (presumably involving a compromise on FoM).
And then put that to a vote - either accept her proposal or go for completely out (on WTO terms).
She needs to get the final relationship endorsed by the people.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/01/why_do_so_many_assassins_have_three_names.html
No country would agree to Scotland taking over the UK's membership and Scotland would not want to. Why would Scotland want to pay what the UK pays now? Why would other member states agree to Scotland getting the UK's weight of votes or a guaranteed commissioner?
Ultimately the fault for the current clusterfuck lies not with Farage, who never lied to us nor dissembled. It lies with clever people who thought we could have the penny and the bun, and who are now finding out we are about to lose both.
May should play for time - it seems at least possible that Freedom of Movement will be tweaked or even abandoned by EU in coming few years as other countries kick up a fuss or elect governments that don't want it (France next?).
The exact opposite of your claim.
All right you are not Alex Salmond after all.
However do you mean in Schengen like the Irish Republic or membership of the Euro like Sweden?
Surely there must be something else? One single notable success?
As a public service, I asked all three how long they reckon it'll take to disentangle ourselves from the EU and for immigration to be under control. Answers: 7 years, 10 years and 15 years. That should be today's exam question in my view.
If people, en masse, think it's two years and we're done, then I think the politics gets really very difficult.
As for Labour being the voice of Remain, I assume he meant of Remainers, since not even the LDs are saying they'll be speaking for Remain (they're on Rejoin, though I suppose if we did have a GE before the exit they could campaign on a Remain platform), and good luck if he thinks those northern heartlands will accept anything other than a Leave position, so those Remainers need someone advocating the least damaging Leave possible.
Hint to save you time: you can't.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36696908
.................................................................................
More seriously the Home Office being the graveyard for politicians down the decades is better seen as a department where you keep awful possibilities off the table as far as is possible. And in that she's enjoyed success.
That said she has developed an authoritarian streak that seems to be hard wired into modern Home Secretaries, albeit they see terrible possibilities that we don't. It happened to Labour incumbents too.
Just seen the full Marr with Gove and Leadsom - Brutal but these are the tests that potential PM's have to face. Gove will struggle on and the Leadsom/Farage axis is a terrible error from her. She should have squashed that suggestion totally.
She will do for now, until the dust settles.
At a local level UKIP are a reg-bag of oddballs and malcontents held together with a common goal - that's been secured...the adhesive that binds them has gone and so too will the party.
For the EU there is also the added bonus that considering Scotland the continuing state after an Independence vote allows the EU to dictate the timetable and effectively bypass the UK delaying Article 50 and trying to hold the EU to ransom.
I bet those first few years would be shaky.
It's just quite remarkable that you can list no policy successes whatsoever from her tenure as Home Secretary. Her career is a total success vacuum.
The only 'positives' I can bring to mind when I think of Theresa May are when she bopped the Tories in kitten heels, or when she bopped the Police Federation - etc. Everyone got all excited, just like they do when Cameron makes a nice speech. But like Cameron, there was no follow up - nothing there. Having just had a wind-up mouth with no substance as PM, and with the country a total wreck (regardless of Brexit), I don't think we can afford someone else like that.
Holding a second referendum is easy: winning it is hard. At the very least it will need a shedload of money, way more than last time. REMAIN City firms were parsimonious in UKREF1, and LEAVE ones were not. Will they be more generous for UKREF2? I know stats but you know money, so this is your field not mine. Will the money men turn up this time?
Inheriting the UK membership would immediately result in the contribution, vote share, etc being pro-rated without any treaty change.
Yeah.
And her fans are meant to be 'serious Tories'.
But this idea of Scotland being the continuing state is so absurd that I have no idea where it came from. Wishful thinking to try and square the circle, I guess.
"The European Union is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
She will do for now for me, it is a practical move not an ideological one.
How this pertains to Leadsom's particular case, I don't know. I have not yet heard her reason for changing position.
Could facts change to make Leavers become Remainers? Yes (e.g. the other 27 suddenly believing the UK's vision of Europe is better after all, or Germany getting religion on proper reform). They haven't for me yet and I don't expect them to. But if they do, I'll be up for responding to the new circumstances, and would expect my politicians to be also, regardless of whether they have previously gone from Remainer to Leaver.
So, if we are to get a deal, it must be done quickly and under Article 50. Otherwise, it's likely to end up in purgatory for a considerable period, as every country starts demanding some little piece that is incredibly important to them.
If an independent Scotland went for sterlingisation, it would be a miracle if they met the convergence criteria.
From the EU's site:
1. CPI no more than 1.5 points above the best three members of the EZ.
2. Deficit of no more than 3%.
3. Government debt of no more than 60% GDP.
4. Two years in ERM II with no significant deviation.
Good luck with that.
No-one likes having to go into a nuanced explanation of why they have changed position, even if the facts justify it, and that goes triple for politicians.
We only know how many people voted to leave or remain in the EU. Its pure supposition that people who voted remain are happy with the single market, they might just as well being people swayed by Project Bullshit, or people loyal to Cameron.
That being said, an Article 50 deal is decided under QMV.
Indeed so.