May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
No
As she just made clear, Brexit is not the PMs only job. She wants to govern the whole country for the whole country, not just Peter Bone and Bill Cash
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
It wouldn't be ducking the responsibility, she'd still have to sign off on everything obviously. And she couldn't duck responsibility for it if it became a mess either, since for one she is still PM, as you say, and for two Brexiters would claim she did it deliberately and undermined whoever was doing it.
Mr. kle4, indeed, just checked. The Wiki page suggests there was less contention at the time, and that may've been a bit of a revisionist view after East and West fell out.
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Someone made a valid observation about her FPT - May disappears when the heat is on. That's exactly the sort of behaviour we don't want in a PM. What has she done of any note over the last six years?
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
''The PM shouldn't make themselves responsible for everything. A department dedicated to the UK-EU deal is a sensible thing, and politically it would have to be headed by a Leave advocate.''
But May won't be responsible for anything, if her career is anything to go by. She never is, she never has been,
Ministers will be left to twist in the wind. Policies will be abandoned or u-turned at the first sign of unpopularity or difficulty.
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seem to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seen to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
There has been no government elected with a mandate for which direction to go. Claiming to divine the will of all Out-ers, whether taffys/Patrick/SeanT/Richard_Tynall/malcolmG/myself is absurd.
For this reason, we must have another referendum or an election where people stand on different platforms. Failure to do so guarantees continued unhappiness for a considerable period of time.
No... But if the referendum result is essentially ignored by Mrs May chances are both Labour and Tories will collapse across the country in 2020.... And Farage will be the beneficiary.
The voters have put the political class on notice. What the politicians do next is up to them but the voters are watching and waiting...
What part of May intoning BREXIT means BREXIT passed you by ?
I just can't get over the suspicion that she'll try and kick this whole thing into the "long grass".
Clarke and Hezza are championing her cause for a reason...
But maybe not. We shall see.
Morning GIN, I think you are right to be concerned, she is a Tory after all so it is almost certain she will be thinking how she can help her millionaire bellend chums by any devious nasty Tory scheme possible.
Morning Malc.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and we'll see what happens!
EEA is my preferred choice so if she'll go that far I'll be satisfied.
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Disagree. She HAS to go this route because the EU know she will not die in a ditch for Brexit. She has to appoint people who will, week in, week out, month in, month out. Then accept the deal they have negotiated.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
Robert. What's your preferred outcome for the UK of Brexit from here ......
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Someone made a valid observation about her FPT - May disappears when the heat is on. That's exactly the sort of behaviour we don't want in a PM. What has she done of any note over the last six years?
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
Brown acquired the nickname Macavity. I worry she could be becoming the same.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
I think another referendum is a terrible idea.
The best thing would be to put EEA to the country in a general election, IMO.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seen to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
Nothing that's why we're leaving. What about you?
I don't believe I expressed an interest in your opinion on the matter, but thanks anyway.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seen to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
The EU isn't Italy or Europe for that matter, my friend. I'd have thought that would be obvious to a Scotch Nat like yourself living in the UK.
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seem to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
There will be a lot of crying foul, but is it worth the risk of another referendum? We are leaving now, and we need to go for the best type of deal we can, and it would devolve into an ugly mess, with EFTA/EEA painted as basically not even leaving (particularly as, in the absence of a 'change your mind' option, the LDs and other remainers will go for it), and the same things will be said once more.
Given there are several potential options for what we could go for, within leave, do you put all of them on the ballot and run it under AV?
A General Election would seem simpler in some ways, but I guess the problem there is the Tories are not united on which option to pick either, hence a potential second referendum idea.
There seems no appetite for a second referendum or a GE, but admittedly it is hard to see how both can be avoided.
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
The reported link between Gove and Osborne certainly makes Gove unacceptable to me. (But I'm not a con member)
Day 10 of Brexit malaise......... This is like Groundhog day- waking up to the nightmare of what the UK has done every morning. It is grief- because you wake up and remember what we have done, and then you get that knotted feeling. Added to the gloom is the death of Caroline Aherne, one of my own, and Italy losing on penalties, and it is a Sunday after all.
Am too blue to even have a go at Brexiters most of you here will be pleased to know.
What I most enjoy about Tory leadership elections is that each round is a fresh contest. And public declarations of support are meaningless given it's a secret ballot.
There's so much scope for stitching a rival up with faux claims of support. And once the bottom candidate is out, we start all over again!
We've 5 runners - so that's Tues/Thurs to eliminate two, then Tues to arrive at the final members choice. The timings are perfect for PB discussion
And on Wednesday - for variety we'll have Chilcott
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Someone made a valid observation about her FPT - May disappears when the heat is on. That's exactly the sort of behaviour we don't want in a PM. What has she done of any note over the last six years?
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
Theresa May = Gordon Brown
Micro manager ✓ Macavity ✓ Remainer ✓ Unable to stop massed immigration ✓ Piss poor at running their department ✓
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Someone made a valid observation about her FPT - May disappears when the heat is on. That's exactly the sort of behaviour we don't want in a PM. What has she done of any note over the last six years?
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
Theresa May stuns Police Federation with vow to break its power
LOL! Germans about to pull the plug on Mr Jucnker?
There was an extremely lengthy article linked a couple of weeks back on Juncker and his leadership of the Commission, and his arbitrary and unilateral declarations and inconsistent behaviour. I can believe he is pushing his luck.
LOL! Germans about to pull the plug on Mr Jucnker?
Cameron was right on Juncker. Cameron was right on the migrant crisis. Cameron was right on the need for EU reform
Merkel ignored Cameron every step of the way and forced through Juncker, took the wrong path on the migrant crisis and blocked any meaningful EU reform.
Just imagine if Merkel had taken Cameron seriously every step of the way? There is no way we'd have voted to Leave, the migrant crisis would have played out completely differently and Juncker could have been junked.
Once article 50 is triggered, If think UK should (in private) operate on the basis that there will be no good deal, and wider economic strategy should also proceed on this basis. The finalisation of any deal will be too vulnerable to being spiked by internal political interests in any individual member state and the wider political situation in the EU itself. The fact is that there will be no single chain of command on the EU negotiation side and it will be impossible to determine in advance who will be the final decision makers.
And this wouldn't be a surprise - after all, the difficulty in the EU signing off trade agreements was one of the main arguments for leaving!
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
If the Labour party is still in chaos she'll call a GE to get the mandate rather than a referendum. If the Labour party is back in shape, then she'll call a referendum.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
Robert. What's your preferred outcome for the UK of Brexit from here ......
Robert I believe is a founding member of the "City Caucus" or as it is otherwise known "Well off libertarians with nice job/house/pension for EEA/EFTA"
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
Leadsom was so utterly lightweight it was embarrassing. She believes. And sometimes she really believes. The sunlit uplands await.
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
Day 10 of Brexit malaise......... This is like Groundhog day- waking up to the nightmare of what the UK has done every morning. It is grief- because you wake up and remember what we have done, and then you get that knotted feeling. Added to the gloom is the death of Caroline Aherne, one of my own, and Italy losing on penalties, and it is a Sunday after all.
Am too blue to even have a go at Brexiters most of you here will be pleased to know.
Crawl away Tyson. No one is interested anymore. We are all getting on with our lives hopeful for the future and waiting to see what happens next. We have no time for your whining. Do yourself and everyone else a favour. Become an Italian citizen and then you can stay in the EU as it all falls apart around your ears.
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
Leadsom was so utterly lightweight it was embarrassing. She believes. And sometimes she really believes. The sunlit uplands await.
Any politician who starts with I believe should be excluded. Tony believed there were weapons of mass destruction.
1) Not denying she would involve Farage in the Brexit negotiations
2) Is she's going to publish her tax returns?
I think Leadsom has a good chance of winning the membership election because a lot of people think it's time for a fresh start and she's the closest to being able to offer it. They want as many of the old guard out as possible.
Indeed. It's a question of if she gets to the last two, which seems likely, will that wish overcome her negatives of inexperience and the like, and how much damage will May sustain from an unenthused electorate.
LOL! Germans about to pull the plug on Mr Jucnker?
Cameron was right on Juncker. Cameron was right on the migrant crisis. Cameron was right on the need for EU reform
Merkel ignored Cameron every step of the way and forced through Juncker, took the wrong path on the migrant crisis and blocked any meaningful EU reform.
Just imagine if Merkel had taken Cameron seriously every step of the way? There is no way we'd have voted to Leave, the migrant crisis would have played out completely differently and Juncker could have been junked.
Don't expect any of them to say such a thing to Cameron - he'll be a pariah for asking the people, even if the things he raised were correct.
I was told the other day this whole business is Cameron's fault because of leaving the EPP. On the basis the latest round of crises were overseen by Juncker who made it that much more likely we'd vote out, and if the Tories were in the EPP this whole time Juncker would never have been in place.
Seems unlikely to me, it would have been another grey figure, no guarantee they wouldn't make the same choices, since Merkel and others pushed for them.
Day 10 of Brexit malaise......... This is like Groundhog day- waking up to the nightmare of what the UK has done every morning. It is grief- because you wake up and remember what we have done, and then you get that knotted feeling. Added to the gloom is the death of Caroline Aherne, one of my own, and Italy losing on penalties, and it is a Sunday after all.
Am too blue to even have a go at Brexiters most of you here will be pleased to know.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
Robert. What's your preferred outcome for the UK of Brexit from here ......
EFTA/EEA, as I've always said.
Look, I'm completely biased. My small asset management firm (well $3bn AUM is not that small) is utterly dependent on financial passporting, as we have a lot of continental European clients. If we needed an EU presence it would be hugely expensive. Further, as I'm sure everyone knows, I have invested in a lot of tech start-ups. They're all very reliant on the fact that London is the silicon valley of Europe.
EFTA/EEA always seemed like the "have your cake and eat it" option, where we maintained access to all the best features of the the single market, while regaining our sovereignty. In addition, we'd be able to use our time in EFTA/EEA to build up trade relationships with people outside the EU, so that if we decided we wanted a looser yet relationship a decade further down the line, we could do so without triggering a very painful discontinuity.
I think people underestimate what a weak position we'd be in trade negotiations if we were to go straight for CO. The fact is that we would have approximately two years to sign as many things as possible, at a time when we're also negotiating with the EU. We have to remember that the person on the other side of the table (whether it's the EU, China, or whoever) is going to be working in their interests alone. UK financial services access to the Chinese market? Not on your nelly... The UK having to accept the judgements of US ISDS tribunals... yep.
EFTA/EEA solves all those problems. It buys us time to negotiate. (And it buys us some ready made EFTA trade deals.) And, frankly, there are plenty of ways to cut EU immigration, not least of which is to change the structure of our benefits system.
Andrea Leadsom clearly has a place lined up for Nigel Farage in government should she win. I can't say that thought fills me with euphoria.
Why would she do such a thing? As were were told by VoteLeave, Farage had nothing to do with their campaign, the main campaign, and thus even if we accept their plans should automatically be adopted, he shouldn't' be a part of it.
We don't need any further referendum or election for at least three years.
Dutch, French and German elections in 2017. Article 50 served Q4 2017/Q1 2018.
Deal ready (both EU and all global ones) March 2020 at the latest. Then election.
The various EU member elections will make fascinating viewing. It's rather fortunate that the European elections here aren't due until 2019, so we'll be out before then. Imagine if they fell in 2017!
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
You do that - another referendum - and this country be on the verge of a civil war. I hasten to add, not a military confrontation but friend against friend and family against family. LEAVE won and even Cameron has the sense to leave well alone and let the chips fall where they will.
I was going to write may instead of will, but decided she didn't need any push from me.
Today lots of people — me included — are suggesting there should be a second vote on this whole Europe business, but we’re told by people in suits that this is not possible. And when we ask why, they say: “Because you just can’t.”
Why not? Where in the constitution does it say we must abide by the result of a plebiscite, no matter how moronic that result might be? It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t say anything in fact because we don’t really have a constitution in Britain. So we can do what happens to be sensible at any given moment. And what is sensible now surely is to hold a vote when everyone is equipped with the most powerful tool in the box: hindsight.
Of course this would infuriate millions of idiotic north of England coffin-dodgers who are prepared to bankrupt the country simply because they don’t want to live next door to a “darkie”. Many will write angry letters full of capital letters and underlining to their local newspapers. And there will be lots of discontent in various bingo halls, but who cares? They’ll all be dead soon anyway.
Clarkson's tantrum is exquisitely enjoyable. Thanks for sharing it, Scott. It made my day even better.
It is just what you would expect from that odious buffoon, easy for a thick millionaire to insult ordinary people.
Clarkson's singing for his supper. He wants that knighthood something awful.
That's a thought? Will David Cameron have a resignation honours list? If so, can we bet on it? And is Jeremy Clarkson still part of the Chipping Norton set?
Andrea Leadsom clearly has a place lined up for Nigel Farage in government should she win. I can't say that thought fills me with euphoria.
Why would she do such a thing? As were were told by VoteLeave, Farage had nothing to do with their campaign, the main campaign, and thus even if we accept their plans should automatically be adopted, he shouldn't' be a part of it.
She's got the support of Arron Banks.
Casino Royale assured me he'd stop Farage having any role in a Tory government.
Day 10 of Brexit malaise......... This is like Groundhog day- waking up to the nightmare of what the UK has done every morning. It is grief- because you wake up and remember what we have done, and then you get that knotted feeling. Added to the gloom is the death of Caroline Aherne, one of my own, and Italy losing on penalties, and it is a Sunday after all.
Am too blue to even have a go at Brexiters most of you here will be pleased to know.
Crawl away Tyson. No one is interested anymore. We are all getting on with our lives hopeful for the future and waiting to see what happens next. We have no time for your whining. Do yourself and everyone else a favour. Become an Italian citizen and then you can stay in the EU as it all falls apart around your ears.
I'm glad you've nominated yourself as the official hate Tyson spokesman for pbCOM. After the tirade of personal abuse I got yesterday for articulating my general opinions about Brexit, I suppose your self nomination was necessary.
Andrea Leadsom clearly has a place lined up for Nigel Farage in government should she win. I can't say that thought fills me with euphoria.
Why would she do such a thing? As were were told by VoteLeave, Farage had nothing to do with their campaign, the main campaign, and thus even if we accept their plans should automatically be adopted, he shouldn't' be a part of it.
Why indeed? But she conspicuously refused to rule it out when given the clear opportunity to do so.
All the Leavers on here assured us that he would play no part in government after a Leave victory. Can it be that their confident assurances were based on flawed assumptions?
Just wondering about the corbyn headlines of.lets do a deal. Is that let's do a deal whereby you guarantee maomentum bonkers policies are part of labour manifesto for next ge & I will walk away OR is it let's do a deal, but I'm not going anywhere?
EFTA/EEA vs Completly Outers It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
I think another referendum is a terrible idea. The best thing would be to put EEA to the country in a general election, IMO.
FWIW I agree with you. The problem might be that you would know what you are voting for wth Labour, LibDems and UKIP but I doubt the Conservatives would be able to agree on any of the proposals.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
Robert. What's your preferred outcome for the UK of Brexit from here ......
Robert I believe is a founding member of the "City Caucus" or as it is otherwise known "Well off libertarians with nice job/house/pension for EEA/EFTA"
Add them to the 16 million plus members of the metropolitan elite who voted Remain and you get a majority.
Boris changed his mind over a shorter timespan. For that matter, so did Cameron (the other way, from claiming he'd campaign to leave if he didn't get a good deal to claiming a terrible deal was great and we should stay in).
I find it hard to take Faisal Islam seriously. His past opinions have included Warsi's defection from a campaign nobody realised she was involved in (and for whom she seems to have done no campaigning) being top story in the world, and the amazing revelation Cameron benefited from government policy*.
May is already backsliding on immigration. Voters will apparently 'have to wait' for numbers from the EU to fall (ie a bucket of May-like excuses, and never).
As Peter Hitchens has it today, May is a Blairite manager.
If the tories elect this person, they are staring disaster in the face.
As opposed to the others?? My dream candidate is Liam Fox - the fruitiest of fruitcakes.
You seem to have an ill will towards the UK and its institutions. What's keeping you ?
You seen to have an ill will towards the EU and its institutions. What's keeping you?
Nothing that's why we're leaving. What about you?
I don't believe I expressed an interest in your opinion on the matter, but thanks anyway.
And nobody expressed an interest in yours....but thanks anyway, for being on hand to patronise.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
You do that - another referendum - and this country be on the verge of a civil war. I hasten to add, not a military confrontation but friend against friend and family against family. LEAVE won and even Cameron has the sense to leave well alone and let the chips fall where they will.
I was going to write may instead of will, but decided she didn't need any push from me.
Sorry: divining what kind of trade deal we want post Brexit = civil war?
May claims that she will appoint a Brexiteer to lead a dept negotiating Leave. This is a serious cop out---a ducking of the PM's responsibility. If she wants to be in command, she has to do the difficult herself. Nobody expects her to do the clerking, but the she cannot delegate the main issue of the day.
And this is her problem. If her heart is not in, the UK will finish up with a poor deal. cf DC...
Someone made a valid observation about her FPT - May disappears when the heat is on. That's exactly the sort of behaviour we don't want in a PM. What has she done of any note over the last six years?
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
Theresa May stuns Police Federation with vow to break its power
Just wondering about the corbyn headlines of.lets do a deal. Is that let's do a deal whereby you guarantee maomentum bonkers policies are part of labour manifesto for next ge & I will walk away OR is it let's do a deal, but I'm not going anywhere?
The Sunday Times said Corbyn was going to quit, in exchange for
1) Shadow cabinet jobs for Corbyn and McDonnell 2) Someone like Clive Lewis being nominated 3) Labour sticking to an anti-austerity agenda
EFTA/EEA vs Completly Outers It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
I think another referendum is a terrible idea. The best thing would be to put EEA to the country in a general election, IMO.
FWIW I agree with you. The problem might be that you would know what you are voting for wth Labour, LibDems and UKIP but I doubt the Conservatives would be able to agree on any of the proposals.
I'm not sure we would know what we are voting for with Labour - they're still a big question mark at the moment as far as I'm aware. They cannot campaign to rejoin, not with so many vulnerable seats, so won't go for the most LeaveLite option the LDs would in a second referendum on what type of leave we want, but which other option they'd go for I don't know. McDonnell seems to have some ideas, but are the party united on that at least?
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
EFTA/EEA always seemed like the "have your cake and eat it" option, where we maintained access to all the best features of the the single market, while regaining our sovereignty. In addition, we'd be able to use our time in EFTA/EEA to build up trade relationships with people outside the EU, so that if we decided we wanted a looser yet relationship a decade further down the line, we could do so without triggering a very painful discontinuity.
I think while this is a respectable view, many people have no confidence that there will be any opportunity given in a decade regardless of how much drama occurs in the mean time. The politicians had a very bad scare this time, and are well on the way to wallpapering over it by electing a leader that will go for EEA+max, and get as close to still being in the EU as is possible. There is no realistic chance that they will want to repeat that scare in ten years time, hell would freeze over first.
If politicians and city types want the rest of the country to take EEA seriously they have to get pretty damn convincing on the options for revisiting it in 10-15 years. The Meeks tendency who are already telling us that the EEA is not just for Christmas are not helping that one little bit.
We don't need any further referendum or election for at least three years.
Dutch, French and German elections in 2017. Article 50 served Q4 2017/Q1 2018.
Deal ready (both EU and all global ones) March 2020 at the latest. Then election.
The various EU member elections will make fascinating viewing. It's rather fortunate that the European elections here aren't due until 2019, so we'll be out before then. Imagine if they fell in 2017!
The nihilism of Brexit knows no bounds, willing on chaos, and the extreme far right in Europe to break up the continent (as well as Trump). Your vandalism has brought chaos to the UK, I doubt Europe is going to follow suit.
Just wondering about the corbyn headlines of.lets do a deal. Is that let's do a deal whereby you guarantee maomentum bonkers policies are part of labour manifesto for next ge & I will walk away OR is it let's do a deal, but I'm not going anywhere?
The Sunday Times said Corbyn was going to quit, in exchange for
1) Shadow cabinet jobs for Corbyn and McDonnell 2) Someone like Clive Lewis being nominated 3) Labour sticking to an anti-austerity agenda
Given the Tories are abandoning austerity as well, and the rebel MPs have shown they have no will to push this all the way, that seems like a very good solution to the current mess. Might store problems for later, but nothing's perfect.
Andrea Leadsom clearly has a place lined up for Nigel Farage in government should she win. I can't say that thought fills me with euphoria.
Why would she do such a thing? As were were told by VoteLeave, Farage had nothing to do with their campaign, the main campaign, and thus even if we accept their plans should automatically be adopted, he shouldn't' be a part of it.
She's got the support of Arron Banks.
Casino Royale assured me he'd stop Farage having any role in a Tory government.
So over to you Mr Royale.
It would be very interesting if Farage got a government job, he can't do a worse job of the economy than Osborne and he would certainly be a tough negotiator with the EU, unlike a certain lightweight called Cameron.
Just wondering about the corbyn headlines of.lets do a deal. Is that let's do a deal whereby you guarantee maomentum bonkers policies are part of labour manifesto for next ge & I will walk away OR is it let's do a deal, but I'm not going anywhere?
The Sunday Times said Corbyn was going to quit, in exchange for
1) Shadow cabinet jobs for Corbyn and McDonnell 2) Someone like Clive Lewis being nominated 3) Labour sticking to an anti-austerity agenda
So continuity Corbyism, just with a different face in charge.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
You do that - another referendum - and this country be on the verge of a civil war. I hasten to add, not a military confrontation but friend against friend and family against family. LEAVE won and even Cameron has the sense to leave well alone and let the chips fall where they will.
I was going to write may instead of will, but decided she didn't need any push from me.
I don't think that's the case. A few people have taken the result really badly - on both sides - everyone else seems to be getting on with life.
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
Or maybe you are ramping for May because despite being a Tory she is likely to give you as close to being in the EU as possible whilst not actually being in it, maybe we could call it the "Turkey" position
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
As an aside, we all seem to be in the process of ensuring that Remain's forecasts about the UK end up being proved correct.
The longer we argue about what we want (before we even invoke Article 50), the longer the investment in the UK holiday will last.
If Gross Capital Formation drops 3% as a percent of GDP, and the savings rate ticks up 3% (neither of which are particularly aggressive forecasts), we'll have a nasty recession.
Let's have a referendum, so that - rather than us guessing what people want - we actually know. Let's have it before Christmas. And let's invoke in January.
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
I'm starting to wonder if she'll make the final two.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
LOL The MoS hastily lowered its 'isn't Theresa wonderful' puff piece from top billing on the site after the top comment below was I'll never vote for May. Upvoted by thousands.
@Mr_Eugenides: That Raheem Kassam, chief cheerleader for UKIP online via the odious Breitbart, is now shilling for Leadsom tells you all you need to know.
Mr. 1000, wouldn't invoking Article 50 in January mean we lave in 2019 (January) and pay a year's membership fees for 2019 despite being in for a month or less that year?
I am trying to get my head around the idea that any serious Tory believes Andrea Leadsom should be the leader of their party and this country's Prime Minister. That is genuinely frightening.
I'm starting to wonder if she'll make the final two.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
You do that - another referendum - and this country be on the verge of a civil war. I hasten to add, not a military confrontation but friend against friend and family against family. LEAVE won and even Cameron has the sense to leave well alone and let the chips fall where they will. .
I think you've misread what was being proposed in that referendum idea - it wouldn't be Leave vs Remain again, but Leave1 vs Leave2 vs Leave 3 etc etc. So why Civil war when leave would still be the outcome?
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic, but it is both less provocative than a rerun, and has more justification since no matter what anyone says, the vote to Leave did not confirm what option of Leave we should take up, in fact that was repeatedly stated to be up to the government, although various groups had clear ideas on what should be sought.
Mr. 1000, wouldn't invoking Article 50 in January mean we lave in 2019 (January) and pay a year's membership fees for 2019 despite being in for a month or less that year?
Comments
http://bbc.in/29gGbiO
I genuinely can't think of any speech or stance she's taken on anything. She's an expert in self-preservation and nothing much more.
But May won't be responsible for anything, if her career is anything to go by. She never is, she never has been,
Ministers will be left to twist in the wind. Policies will be abandoned or u-turned at the first sign of unpopularity or difficulty.
The worst choice we could make, for me.
It's very simple. We need another referendum. Otherwise large numbers of people are going to cry foul.
Mrs May's first task as PM should be to organise one for November/December, and she should hold herself back from it, other than ensuring that the most ridiculous lies (Turkey) are not repeated.
Just kidding, I know what you meant
What a thoroughly depressing edition of the Marr show that was. It gave political pygmies a good name.
There has been no government elected with a mandate for which direction to go. Claiming to divine the will of all Out-ers, whether taffys/Patrick/SeanT/Richard_Tynall/malcolmG/myself is absurd.
For this reason, we must have another referendum or an election where people stand on different platforms. Failure to do so guarantees continued unhappiness for a considerable period of time.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and we'll see what happens!
EEA is my preferred choice so if she'll go that far I'll be satisfied.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/brexit-2016/berlin-tells-gloating-juncker-go-q73lw08dv
Does anyone know much about Didier Seeuws? Belgian diplomat? He's apparently chief Brexit negotiator for the EU.
The best thing would be to put EEA to the country in a general election, IMO.
Imagine being in a May cabinet. Anything that goes well is down to her. Anything that goes wrong is Your Fault.
Given there are several potential options for what we could go for, within leave, do you put all of them on the ballot and run it under AV?
A General Election would seem simpler in some ways, but I guess the problem there is the Tories are not united on which option to pick either, hence a potential second referendum idea.
There seems no appetite for a second referendum or a GE, but admittedly it is hard to see how both can be avoided.
Dutch, French and German elections in 2017. Article 50 served Q4 2017/Q1 2018.
Deal ready (both EU and all global ones) March 2020 at the latest. Then election.
@KayBurley: Theresa May well prepped by the magnificent Joey Jones. Easily wins today's media round.
#Peston
This is like Groundhog day- waking up to the nightmare of what the UK has done every morning. It is grief- because you wake up and remember what we have done, and then you get that knotted feeling. Added to the gloom is the death of Caroline Aherne, one of my own, and Italy losing on penalties, and it is a Sunday after all.
Am too blue to even have a go at Brexiters most of you here will be pleased to know.
Micro manager ✓
Macavity ✓
Remainer ✓
Unable to stop massed immigration ✓
Piss poor at running their department ✓
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/21/theresa-may-police-federation-power
But then all Home Secretaries have been tough with the Police Federation, haven't they?
@faisalislam: Here @andrealeadsom 2013 Hansard lecture "nailing colours to mast" on EU exit econ "disaster..decade of uncertainty" https://t.co/6KMYn8onGz
Just the kind of leadership we need.
Oh, wait...
Cameron was right on the migrant crisis.
Cameron was right on the need for EU reform
Merkel ignored Cameron every step of the way and forced through Juncker, took the wrong path on the migrant crisis and blocked any meaningful EU reform.
Just imagine if Merkel had taken Cameron seriously every step of the way? There is no way we'd have voted to Leave, the migrant crisis would have played out completely differently and Juncker could have been junked.
In other words, I reserve the right to kick this into the grass and do nothing. After the biggest political explosion in Britain in 40 years.
The decks are being cleared for her to do what she does best. Zilch.
No way, May.
And this wouldn't be a surprise - after all, the difficulty in the EU signing off trade agreements was one of the main arguments for leaving!
She said Brexit would cause a decade of economic uncertainty. And it will
I was told the other day this whole business is Cameron's fault because of leaving the EPP. On the basis the latest round of crises were overseen by Juncker who made it that much more likely we'd vote out, and if the Tories were in the EPP this whole time Juncker would never have been in place.
Seems unlikely to me, it would have been another grey figure, no guarantee they wouldn't make the same choices, since Merkel and others pushed for them.
Look, I'm completely biased. My small asset management firm (well $3bn AUM is not that small) is utterly dependent on financial passporting, as we have a lot of continental European clients. If we needed an EU presence it would be hugely expensive. Further, as I'm sure everyone knows, I have invested in a lot of tech start-ups. They're all very reliant on the fact that London is the silicon valley of Europe.
EFTA/EEA always seemed like the "have your cake and eat it" option, where we maintained access to all the best features of the the single market, while regaining our sovereignty. In addition, we'd be able to use our time in EFTA/EEA to build up trade relationships with people outside the EU, so that if we decided we wanted a looser yet relationship a decade further down the line, we could do so without triggering a very painful discontinuity.
I think people underestimate what a weak position we'd be in trade negotiations if we were to go straight for CO. The fact is that we would have approximately two years to sign as many things as possible, at a time when we're also negotiating with the EU. We have to remember that the person on the other side of the table (whether it's the EU, China, or whoever) is going to be working in their interests alone. UK financial services access to the Chinese market? Not on your nelly... The UK having to accept the judgements of US ISDS tribunals... yep.
EFTA/EEA solves all those problems. It buys us time to negotiate. (And it buys us some ready made EFTA trade deals.) And, frankly, there are plenty of ways to cut EU immigration, not least of which is to change the structure of our benefits system.
Or HMG could have made clear that Leave meant "into EEA+EFTA".
But that would have required Cameron to be sensible.
I was going to write may instead of will, but decided she didn't need any push from me.
Smythson's has stationery in many colours but lavender is a shocking omission.
http://www.smythson.com/stationery.html
Casino Royale assured me he'd stop Farage having any role in a Tory government.
So over to you Mr Royale.
All the Leavers on here assured us that he would play no part in government after a Leave victory. Can it be that their confident assurances were based on flawed assumptions?
https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/749254472946290688
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/03/brexit-vote-mutiny-tories
Boris changed his mind over a shorter timespan. For that matter, so did Cameron (the other way, from claiming he'd campaign to leave if he didn't get a good deal to claiming a terrible deal was great and we should stay in).
I find it hard to take Faisal Islam seriously. His past opinions have included Warsi's defection from a campaign nobody realised she was involved in (and for whom she seems to have done no campaigning) being top story in the world, and the amazing revelation Cameron benefited from government policy*.
*By the reduction in income tax. ....
You're sounding like some crazy Remainer.
1) Shadow cabinet jobs for Corbyn and McDonnell
2) Someone like Clive Lewis being nominated
3) Labour sticking to an anti-austerity agenda
If politicians and city types want the rest of the country to take EEA seriously they have to get pretty damn convincing on the options for revisiting it in 10-15 years. The Meeks tendency who are already telling us that the EEA is not just for Christmas are not helping that one little bit.
Lots of Brexiteers believe it
The longer we argue about what we want (before we even invoke Article 50), the longer the investment in the UK holiday will last.
If Gross Capital Formation drops 3% as a percent of GDP, and the savings rate ticks up 3% (neither of which are particularly aggressive forecasts), we'll have a nasty recession.
Let's have a referendum, so that - rather than us guessing what people want - we actually know. Let's have it before Christmas. And let's invoke in January.
Starting to think whether I should back the final two being May & Crabb at 7/1 and May & Fox at 25/1
Now, I think the idea is hugely problematic, but it is both less provocative than a rerun, and has more justification since no matter what anyone says, the vote to Leave did not confirm what option of Leave we should take up, in fact that was repeatedly stated to be up to the government, although various groups had clear ideas on what should be sought.