If Theresa May is the next PM, doesn't invoke A50 or hold an early GE, what chance is there of Boris/Gove/Leadsom/Mogg/Leavers in general pushing for a vote of no confidence or defecting?
Government business will become near impossible if May doesn't deliver on Article 50.
If Theresa May is the next PM, doesn't invoke A50 or hold an early GE, what chance is there of Boris/Gove/Leadsom/Mogg/Leavers in general pushing for a vote of no confidence or defecting?
People are reinterpreting the referendum result on an a la carte basis. But there was in fact a clear statement what the official campaign were looking for. It is now being ignored.
And whenever I point that out, Leavers get irate with me. It is all very odd. It is as if there was a deliberate attempt to dupe the British public and now we're supposed not to notice.
I'm nose.
I'm old fashioned enough to believe that there should at least be an attempt to implement a manifesto after an election victory. Not even to try is a fraud on the voters.
You're clearly so old fashioned you see manifestos for Leave, when actually what you linked to was a plan by VoteLeave, which is not the same thing at all. Remember the other Leave campaigns? VoteLeave was biggest, most influential, but not the whole, so it's 'manifesto' cannot be taken to be the manifesto for all. To pretend otherwise is presenting a fraudulent proposition (which we got enough of with the campaigns, thank you). Leave was heavily influenced by but was not VoteLeave. Pretending otherwise is preposterous
And I didn't say people should not try. They are trying now to implement the whole thing, and I can dislike aspects of it, but could not complain as it was one of the options of a Leave vote. But they might not succeed. And that would be ok to. Your insistence that only one prospectus is permitted when the question did not specify that and other views were part of the overall campaign, is farcical.
It's a little baffling, as I know for certain you are more intelligent than I am by far, but you've adopted this unbending insistence based on a premise that and if they think that, they can vote for someone who will implement them. They will have other chances.
Vote Leave was the official campaign.
Yes. But not the only one. Meaning it's not
I agree many will want the vote leave oesnt
I'm curious. What do you think was the purpose of issuing that programme?
To convince people they would implement it obviously. That doesn't mean everyone who voted leave did so because of it, particularly since they had no power to promise it as a certainty. They did and that was wrong, but has no bearing on any false obligation to do it now. Many will be angry at the misleading, but sadly I cannot think of any vote without misleading promises. Can you?
If fellow leavers were misled I told them my opinion, such as on turkey, bit cannot help if others believed differently
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
Except the Norwegians, Swiss or Icelandic friends who are outside the EU anyway. Marine Le Pen celebrated the result with fish and chips!
'My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.'
My wife is French & has not noticed any of the so called alienation you refer to,maybe it's just in your mind or that's what you would like the narrative to be.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
Yes and when we stay in the EEA and keep free movement most will realise that nothing has changed we've just detached ourselves from the political project.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
@numbertwelve 'The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."' She has, but look at her trackrecord referenced by @Plato here at 11:25.
Re: the "when is Article 50" debate/bet. May has a clear strategy open to her: sit tight and wait for public opinion to swing decisively against leaving the EU.
I don't think she has time for that, and areas voting 70% leave won't change their minds no matter what. Will others? Not unless it's armageddon
There's a lot of anger out there; in West Yorkshire I came across people being very open with racist opinions (in what has been an area with BNP success, so likely dormant since then) for example. Now I'm back down south for a while I've seen the opposite anger, at those who voted leave in an attempt to 'screw up other people's lives as well as their own' (their comment and I can see their point). On top of that, I work a lot with overseas students and they are scared, really scared of the way that they are being perceived and, in some cases, confronted by hatred towards them. Now we have a vote to have 'something else', if that 'something else' doesn't please everybody we could be in trouble.
Vote for May, she might be able to give some sort of stability I hope, give reassurances that the current chaos isn't giving us.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
I share your pain, for years us bumpkins have had the same feeling that the London Marie Antoinettes dont want us either :-(
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
I think that's sad. I genuinely believe that the overwhelming majority of people in this country did not vote to 'reject' them. I feel this result is getting spun as being some personal spit in the face to foreign people, when it was largely about the institutions of Europe that govern us.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Day 9 after the country went bonkers and still as miserable as ever. I can easily understand now how civil wars break out such is my utter scathing contempt and hatred for anything remotely to do with Brexit.
We'll put you down as undecided?
But seriously Tyson, time to down down the bile. It's over. You lost. Time to make nice with those that the policy of the last 40 years has let down.
"Make nice"? You voted for this, right?
Voted to increase personal allowance and make work pay more than benefits; yes.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
A black lady in my office voted Leave, the most vehement Remainers were white
If Theresa May is the next PM, doesn't invoke A50 or hold an early GE, what chance is there of Boris/Gove/Leadsom/Mogg/Leavers in general pushing for a vote of no confidence or defecting?
Monty opens a door. Behind it is Article 50.
Do you switch?
It depends on whether your motivation is to ignore democracy and ruin the two major parties or not
@numbertwelve 'The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."' She has, but look at her trackrecord referenced by @Plato here at 11:25.
Statements now about out is out may need a pinch salt since if something really big happened the tune would change. But there is nothing realistically able to cause such a change
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
I share your pain, for years us bumpkins have had the same feeling that the London Marie Antoinettes dont want us either :-(
In those long-gone normal days of yore right wingers on here would be pointing out that the Remainer professionals were the very people funding the country through their 40% taxes. Suddenly right wing Leavers have become champions of the working- and non-working class.
My wife, like many other foreigners now feel unwanted. They feel alienated in England. I actually am trying to reassure her, but I am not her, and can only imagine how this feels.
In terms of the future of Brexit- I think there will almost certainly have to be a GE before Article 50 is invoked which effectively will be our second referendum.
I actually hold some degree of hope that May will be our Angela Merkel- and she could well end up as PM as some kind of Govt of National Unity as the UK implodes into political and economic chaos.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
Complete and utter bullshit. You must be in a very special bubble indeed if you think most minority people feel "worried" because of a few idiots that will face prison for their disgusting acts.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
Stop poisoning them then.....
Off here I listen rather than talk. Immigrants are quite capable of reading the newspapers and seeing the posters for themselves and drawing their own conclusions.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Hear hear!
Whatever people say, the nasty undercurrent of racism and bigotry in British society has been given a shot in the arm after the Leave vote. Let's see how this plays out but I for am am not optimistic.
We all need to make the best of the fact we will now live in a poorer, less tolerant, inward looking and isolated country. Move on and face a bleaker future,,,
Actually Murali I have some hope that Article 50 will not be invoked. As much as May says not, there will have to be some kind of agreement put before an election before we press the trigger. And by then we'll be in the throes of a self inflicted recession.
Remain is not finished. Not by a long way.
Article 50 being after 2018 or never at 3/1 is a really good value bet.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
That is certainly a strongly held view here in Spain and it is combined with a lot of nervousness among the Brits as to what the future holds for them. I hope the fears fade and so much depends upon the victors being magnanimous in terms of what happens next. I'm sad to hear the likes of IDS for whom the campaign seems never to end - his support for Leadsom has confirmed mine for May.
The reason why I bring this up is because it used to be thought dead, but I was never convinced, especially in later years.
"Money illusion" is the belief that if you have £2 now and £1 before, then you are twice as rich now as before. But that only works in times of low inflation, low interest rates, and a stable exchange rates. In the 70's we had high inflation, high interest rates, and an oil price shock. People began to notice that although they were being paid more, what they could buy with it was going down. They compensated by asking for even more money in their pay, but that only made things worse, as the total amount of money kept going up but the amount of stuff to buy with it didn't. This ignited large inflation and in turn high interest rates, and it took nearly twenty years to bring it under control, only stabilizing in the 90's.
Now, because of globalization and the EU (sorry), we have had low inflation and low interest rates for, well, decades. And because of this money illusion has come back into fashion.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
I tried replying on your blog but my comment got eaten - twice!
Wanted to explain the PU penalties, it's 10 places for the first element and five places more for each subsequent element, of the sixth PU. Same penalties again for the seventh PU. Change all five elements and it's 30 places, so better to change all in one go and only have to take the 20 places to start at the back. Suggestion is that Lewis will take a whole 6th PU somewhere where he can overtake from the back - Monza maybe.
I'm betting on rain this afternoon, so sitting out qualy and will bet on Sunday.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Day 9 after the country went bonkers and still as miserable as ever. I can easily understand now how civil wars break out such is my utter scathing contempt and hatred for anything remotely to do with Brexit.
You still on here boring the pants off us a week later.
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
Their incorrect interpretations are noones fault but their own.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Day 9 after the country went bonkers and still as miserable as ever. I can easily understand now how civil wars break out such is my utter scathing contempt and hatred for anything remotely to do with Brexit.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
Exactly. What could force so many former leavers there to backtrack? Nothing I suspect
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Day 9 after the country went bonkers and still as miserable as ever. I can easily understand now how civil wars break out such is my utter scathing contempt and hatred for anything remotely to do with Brexit.
You still on here boring the pants off us a week later.
If ever I have any doubt about voting Brexit, I console myself with the thought that Tyson might just one day get his shit together and become a senior figure in the EU. And without Brexit, we would have no way of preventing him lording it over us, year after year, with no mechanism to escape his asinine edicts.....
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
A German I know a little, told me the othre day that he had heard on the grapevine of many EU nationals seriously thinking of leaving. And who can blame them. Would you stay?
Anybody as stupid as that , who makes that assumption from an almost 50:50 vote to leave a political union will not be missed. We have that complete plonker Tyson whinging from Italy and now we have bollox like this, get a life saddo's nothing whatsoever is any different to what it was before the boat other than to give licence to halfwits to bump their gums.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Hear hear!
Whatever people say, the nasty undercurrent of racism and bigotry in British society has been given a shot in the arm after the Leave vote. Let's see how this plays out but I for am am not optimistic.
We all need to make the best of the fact we will now live in a poorer, less tolerant, inward looking and isolated country. Move on and face a bleaker future,,,
As a Remainer, I believe we will be living in a poorer country. The problem is the people this will hit most are the social class D and E Leavers discussed down thread who will be the brunt of public sector spending cuts, job losses due to recession etc etc. They were sold a pup. I fear the wrath that is coming.
Mole Valley will continue just fine no doubt.
Interesting that in Mole Valley, 47% voted Leave - and then just seven days later, the LibDems win a by-election with 57% of the vote and a massive swing from the Tories. Figure that one out.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Hear hear!
Whatever people say, the nasty undercurrent of racism and bigotry in British society has been given a shot in the arm after the Leave vote. Let's see how this plays out but I for am am not optimistic.
We all need to make the best of the fact we will now live in a poorer, less tolerant, inward looking and isolated country. Move on and face a bleaker future,,,
Actually Murali I have some hope that Article 50 will not be invoked. As much as May says not, there will have to be some kind of agreement put before an election before we press the trigger. And by then we'll be in the throes of a self inflicted recession.
Remain is not finished. Not by a long way.
Back to stage 1.
Brexit must be having some impact on Italy to have this nutjub frothing at the mouth so much.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
There was a survey of black people about racism that found there was a surprisingly common incidence of black people feeling that white shopkeepers didn't want to touch their skin, and therefore when giving them change, were putting their banknotes into their hand first as a 'sheild', then dropping their coins on top. Of course, as we all know, this is in fact universal practise. The racism was their perception.
With the incredibly irresponsible political and media campaign that has been whipped up around 'Brexit racism', it's hardly surprising that EU citizens living in the UK feel vulnerable. Every gesture and glance will probably be second-guessed.
But feelings are not facts. As with all media campaigns, the hysteria will pass, and inertia and 'life going on' will take over.
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Br
Hear hear!
Whatever people say, the nasty undercurrent of racism and bigotry in British society has been given a shot in the arm after the Leave vote. Let's see how this plays out but I for am am not optimistic.
We all need to make the best of the fact we will now live in a poorer, less tolerant, inward looking and isolated country. Move on and face a bleaker future,,,
As a Remainer, I believe we will be living in a poorer country. The problem is the people this will hit most are the social class D and E Leavers discussed down thread who will be the brunt of public sector spending cuts, job losses due to recession etc etc. They were sold a pup. I fear the wrath that is coming.
Mole Valley will continue just fine no doubt.
Interesting that in Mole Valley, 47% voted Leave - and then just seven days later, the LibDems win a by-election with 57% of the vote and a massive swing from the Tories. Figure that one out.
53% in Mole Valley voted Remain compared to 48% nationally. Mole Valley is a Tory seat, hardly surprising if the LDs made gains there last week
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Hear hear!
Whatever people say, the nasty undercurrent of racism and bigotry in British society has been given a shot in the arm after the Leave vote. Let's see how this plays out but I for am am not optimistic.
We all need to make the best of the fact we will now live in a poorer, less tolerant, inward looking and isolated country. Move on and face a bleaker future,,,
Any chance Tyson can put you up in Italy, another whinging deluded halfwit.
'My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.'
My wife is French & has not noticed any of the so called alienation you refer to,maybe it's just in your mind or that's what you would like the narrative to be.
Grow up & stop being a drama queen.
IIRC @tyson 's wife felt alienated and unwanted even before she went to the UK. Obviously I'm sorry we couldn't help here, but may be next time?
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
"It’s this stark: if you do physical labour, live in a modest home and have never darkened the door of a university, you’re far more likely to have said ‘screw you’ to the EU than the bloke in the leafier neighbouring borough who has a nicer existence. Of course there are discrepancies. The 16 local authorities in Scotland that have high manufacturing levels voted Remain rather than Leave. But for the most part, class was the deciding factor in the vote.
This, for me, is the most breathtaking fact: of the 50 areas of Britain that have the highest number of people in social classes D and E — semi-skilled and unskilled workers and unemployed people — only three voted Remain. Three. That means 47 very poor areas, in unison said No to the very thing the establishment insisted they should say Yes to..."
As said Brexiters are either ill informed, ill educated, stupid, ignorant, ideologically deluded, or racist or any combination of these characteristics. Which are you Plato?
Take the beam out of your own eye, first.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
but you live in Italy
Tired and emotional does not begin to describe it.
Since the referendum, Leavers have become very tetchy about even discussing its implementation. But this is what people voted for. Why is no one advocating that it be delivered?
Vote Leave are not appointing the PM yet. The referendum is not the same as voting in a Govt. Mr Meeks, why not take the weekend off and get used to the fact that your side lost and take a look at why your predictions on here of 60% REMAIN were so wrong. You seem to be in the Anger stage of suffering a death in the family.
We know leave won, we also know they used every trick in the book to get there by exploiting the immigration issue and NHS funding. If leavers think that everyone is going to conveniently forget all that and let them come to a comfortable compromise that suits London and the City then I think they are in for a shock. It was a con and as each month goes by that will become increasingly obvious to half the Leavers and all the Remainers.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
A German I know a little, told me the othre day that he had heard on the grapevine of many EU nationals seriously thinking of leaving. And who can blame them. Would you stay?
Anybody as stupid as that , who makes that assumption from an almost 50:50 vote to leave a political union will not be missed. We have that complete plonker Tyson whinging from Italy and now we have bollox like this, get a life saddo's nothing whatsoever is any different to what it was before the boat other than to give licence to halfwits to bump their gums.
The most worrying thing about this conversation is that I'm agreeing with malcolmg....
In those long-gone normal days of yore right wingers on here would be pointing out that the Remainer professionals were the very people funding the country through their 40% taxes. Suddenly right wing Leavers have become champions of the working- and non-working class.
Funny old world.
Indeed as many Tory middle class voters voted Remain as Labour working class voters voted Leave
My wife, like many other foreigners now feel unwanted. They feel alienated in England. I actually am trying to reassure her, but I am not her, and can only imagine how this feels.
In terms of the future of Brexit- I think there will almost certainly have to be a GE before Article 50 is invoked which effectively will be our second referendum.
I actually hold some degree of hope that May will be our Angela Merkel- and she could well end up as PM as some kind of Govt of National Unity as the UK implodes into political and economic chaos.
A referendum on the EU Exit Treaty, please. Or something very similar.
In a GE, all sorts of policies get packaged up and put in the manifesto, so I think the answer would be much less clear.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
I'm tempted to go back and read the endless diet of threads about the superior Remain campaign.
It's beyond sad how obvious confirmation bias is. We saw it in spades over Lib Dems Winning Here before their virtual wipe out at GE 2015.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
Complete and utter bullshit. You must be in a very special bubble indeed if you think most minority people feel "worried" because of a few idiots that will face prison for their disgusting acts.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
I'm tempted to go back and read the endless diet of threads about the superior Remain campaign.
It's beyond sad how obvious confirmation bias is. We saw it in spades over Lib Dems Winning Here before their virtual wipe out at GE 2015.
Once again you add the square root of fuck all to the debate with your vapid mutterings
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
I share your pain, for years us bumpkins have had the same feeling that the London Marie Antoinettes dont want us either :-(
LOL, you will have him spluttering into his Skinny Flavoured Latte
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
What a melodramatic jessie
Chill man - you got what you wanted - the second referendum and an independent Scotland.
In those long-gone normal days of yore right wingers on here would be pointing out that the Remainer professionals were the very people funding the country through their 40% taxes. Suddenly right wing Leavers have become champions of the working- and non-working class.
Funny old world.
Indeed as many Tory middle class voters voted Remain as Labour working class voters voted Leave
Quite. It's forced me to rethink my prejudices. One of the very few good things to come out of this sorry mess
Well, I must say I'm stunned by these anecdotes from arch-Remainers of what their European friends are saying.
I never would have expected that.
I'll have to defend that - I know some who are worried. Not quite so intently, but genuinely worried about what it will all mean
You don't say kle4, I think everybody is wondering and worried what our useless , stupid politicians will do next, it has F**k all to do with mince like this about French , Germans , BAME's or whatever is flavour of the day. I note it is millionaires, ex pats etc who are doing all the whinging not the people who are actually involved.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
Why would you want someone of principle? I want someone who does what works, not someone with preconceived ideas.
In those long-gone normal days of yore right wingers on here would be pointing out that the Remainer professionals were the very people funding the country through their 40% taxes. Suddenly right wing Leavers have become champions of the working- and non-working class.
Funny old world.
Indeed as many Tory middle class voters voted Remain as Labour working class voters voted Leave
Quite. It's forced me to rethink my prejudices. One of the very few good things to come out of this sorry mess
Yes, the referendum dividing lines were much more similar to a US election than we normally have (and particularly similar to how a Trump v Clinton battle will look). Graduates, big city dwellers, ethnic minorities and professionals and the young voting Remain/Democrat, non-graduates, rural and small town voters, the white working class, the old voting Leave/GOP
All my non-British friends are interpreting the vote as a signal that the British don't want them. They feel rejection on a personal level, just as Nick Palmer says.
Yes and when we stay in the EEA and keep free movement most will realise that nothing has changed we've just detached ourselves from the political project.
As Kirsty MacColl once sang, that’s All I Ever Wanted – I have little or no problem with the common market, immigration or even the EU wide regulations, per se and if that’s what the other 26 member states are happy with, then good luck to them. It’s a shame that we had to resort to this extreme measure, but quite honestly, Brussels gave us very little choice imho.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
That's simply the remainers being on the wrong side of the argument for a change.
It's been pointed out for years that constantly ignoring the views of large segments of the electorate would lead to them pushing back. The people moaning have sung lalala for 15 years and now sound surprised that what worked for them has been rejected by the majority of their compatriots.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
He is not witty at all and for you to allude that it is OK if it is Sean doing it but not someone else tends to blunt your faux outrage at Richard's comments. Selective "nasty" is far worse than the comment.
What I wouldn't rule out is either a general election or another referendum on the eventual deal.
I am completely bemused by this.
We negotiate the best deal we can get. Then we have a referendum on what?
The best deal we can get or no deal at all?
Quite. It actually makes less sense than a straight rerun unless I'm missing something. An election Pre negotiator would be awful and annoy the EU but could at least settle what each party thinks the negotiation to leave should aim for.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
I agree with everyone who has mentioned the dark side of Brexit and its enablers. Since that miserable day I've never seen the bigots so emboldened: they're not now even pretending that this is about anything other than persecuting foreigners. On a personal level, I work with many Europeans and am finding it difficult to look them in the eye. It's depressing to think that so many of my fellow countrymen signed up to this agenda of hate. Stupidity is the most charitable excuse for them.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
Why would you want someone of principle? I want someone who does what works, not someone with preconceived ideas.
Because we want someone who will stand up for Britain in the renegotiations now, we get one shot at this and need someone who will put Britain first.
We don't need someone that will grab the easiest and first outcome as then all the aces are in Europe's hand and they will give us nothing again. Just as they did to Cameron.
We need an honest broker here and May is not that.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
Why would you want someone of principle? I want someone who does what works, not someone with preconceived ideas.
But she is fatally wounded on the EU. She is Continuity Cameron when it comes to negotiating.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Wow - you've cancelled on your brother and your friend?
Friendships and family are more important than the EU, surely?
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
A German I know a little, told me the othre day that he had heard on the grapevine of many EU nationals seriously thinking of leaving. And who can blame them. Would you stay?
Anybody as stupid as that , who makes that assumption from an almost 50:50 vote to leave a political union will not be missed. We have that complete plonker Tyson whinging from Italy and now we have bollox like this, get a life saddo's nothing whatsoever is any different to what it was before the boat other than to give licence to halfwits to bump their gums.
The most worrying thing about this conversation is that I'm agreeing with malcolmg....
eek, a lightbulb has just gone on , I will have you a genius soon.
Comments
Government business will become near impossible if May doesn't deliver on Article 50.
Do you switch?
If fellow leavers were misled I told them my opinion, such as on turkey, bit cannot help if others believed differently
'My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.'
My wife is French & has not noticed any of the so called alienation you refer to,maybe it's just in your mind or that's what you would like the narrative to be.
Grow up & stop being a drama queen.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
'The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."'
She has, but look at her trackrecord referenced by @Plato here at 11:25.
Vote for May, she might be able to give some sort of stability I hope, give reassurances that the current chaos isn't giving us.
That's an interesting mindset.
I never would have expected that.
In those long-gone normal days of yore right wingers on here would be pointing out that the Remainer professionals were the very people funding the country through their 40% taxes. Suddenly right wing Leavers have become champions of the working- and non-working class.
Funny old world.
My wife, like many other foreigners now feel unwanted. They feel alienated in England. I actually am trying to reassure her, but I am not her, and can only imagine how this feels.
In terms of the future of Brexit- I think there will almost certainly have to be a GE before Article 50 is invoked which effectively will be our second referendum.
I actually hold some degree of hope that May will be our Angela Merkel- and she could well end up as PM as some kind of Govt of National Unity as the UK implodes into political and economic chaos.
The reason why I bring this up is because it used to be thought dead, but I was never convinced, especially in later years.
"Money illusion" is the belief that if you have £2 now and £1 before, then you are twice as rich now as before. But that only works in times of low inflation, low interest rates, and a stable exchange rates. In the 70's we had high inflation, high interest rates, and an oil price shock. People began to notice that although they were being paid more, what they could buy with it was going down. They compensated by asking for even more money in their pay, but that only made things worse, as the total amount of money kept going up but the amount of stuff to buy with it didn't. This ignited large inflation and in turn high interest rates, and it took nearly twenty years to bring it under control, only stabilizing in the 90's.
Now, because of globalization and the EU (sorry), we have had low inflation and low interest rates for, well, decades. And because of this money illusion has come back into fashion.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
Wanted to explain the PU penalties, it's 10 places for the first element and five places more for each subsequent element, of the sixth PU. Same penalties again for the seventh PU. Change all five elements and it's 30 places, so better to change all in one go and only have to take the 20 places to start at the back. Suggestion is that Lewis will take a whole 6th PU somewhere where he can overtake from the back - Monza maybe.
I'm betting on rain this afternoon, so sitting out qualy and will bet on Sunday.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
L/NP 71 ALP 65 Others 5
With the incredibly irresponsible political and media campaign that has been whipped up around 'Brexit racism', it's hardly surprising that EU citizens living in the UK feel vulnerable. Every gesture and glance will probably be second-guessed.
But feelings are not facts. As with all media campaigns, the hysteria will pass, and inertia and 'life going on' will take over.
http://order-order.com/2016/07/02/read-full-article-pulled-telegraph-pressure-may-campaign/
She's going to be a seriously nasty PM.
And if she wins an election against a shambolic labour, she'll have maybe 9 years to stamp her worldview on the country.
http://order-order.com/2016/07/02/read-full-article-pulled-telegraph-pressure-may-campaign/
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/theresa-may-is-a-great-self-promoter-but-a-terrible-home-secreta/
The more rounds there are the better Leadsom's chances. Theresa May carries baggage. She's the Cameroon establishment and pro-Remain choice.
In a GE, all sorts of policies get packaged up and put in the manifesto, so I think the answer would be much less clear.
It's beyond sad how obvious confirmation bias is. We saw it in spades over Lib Dems Winning Here before their virtual wipe out at GE 2015.
Knives out for Abbott?
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
L/NP 73 ALP 66 Others 5
I note it is millionaires, ex pats etc who are doing all the whinging not the people who are actually involved.
We negotiate the best deal we can get. Then we have a referendum on what?
The best deal we can get or no deal at all?
We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
It's been pointed out for years that constantly ignoring the views of large segments of the electorate would lead to them pushing back. The people moaning have sung lalala for 15 years and now sound surprised that what worked for them has been rejected by the majority of their compatriots.
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
£350m? No
End FoM? No
Leave single market? No
We don't need someone that will grab the easiest and first outcome as then all the aces are in Europe's hand and they will give us nothing again. Just as they did to Cameron.
We need an honest broker here and May is not that.
Friendships and family are more important than the EU, surely?