Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
That's the amusing bit.
The debate in Parliament on Monday was hilarious. Brexiteer Tory backbenchers were lined up one after the other to whine at the PM "Why are you not fixing our shit?"
It's not unreasonable to hope that the government, having legislated for the referendum, had given some thought to how they might implement a leave decision.
The point that was clear was leave, the other details may need democratic clarification too, in the form of a GE on what negotiating stance to take.
Indeed.
And in 3 months, Theresa May going to the country on a platform of single market access with free movement to stabilise the economy would win in a landslide.
Andrea Leadsom on a platform of closed borders, no £350m, and economic chaos, would lose to Jeremy Corbyn
You are delusional.
Leadsom just won a majority of the nation backing precisely that.
Unfortunately Scott is right. We can't have any leavers at the top. They are bound by Gove's stupid campaign promises, we can't restrict free movement without leaving the single market. Leadsom and the other leave leaders promised the impossible. We need a grown up to tell it how it is.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
There were Remainers here who before the vote were already boasting about how they would be gloating at its result.
Tyson being one such - IIRC he said he would be revelling in the misery of Leavers.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
Why would you want someone of principle? I want someone who does what works, not someone with preconceived ideas.
Because I want the result of the referendum delivered in its widely understood sense, not a subset of it that's handy for a small number of businesses.
That means an extra £350m to the NHS every week as was so clearly painted on the bus. Right ?
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
The key to Leave winning was the Fear of Mass Immigration. It overwhelmed any logic which might have been introduced to the debate.
As to why: I'd say the the tone of the Brexit campaign might have had something to do with it. Feel free to disagree.
I think is has much more to do with the bigotry and closed mindedness of Remainers.
If you're constantly claiming that Leave is racism and Leave wants foreigners out then a Leave win would imply the nation is racist and wants foreigners out.
Of course the Leave campaign as led by Johnson, Gove, Leadsom etc were nothing of the sort but why let facts get in the way?
Except for the Turks bit, of course.
Remainers need to accept that the vast majority of those people who voted Leave did so with the most honourable of intentions; and are not racists and xenophobes. But I think Leavers would also do well to accept that a lot of non-UK nationals who live in this country and have made a great contribution to it now feel worried and, in many cases, more unwelcome than they felt previously. Others will not, of course.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
One or two, particularly Tyson atm. But you can hardly say that leavers are being paragons of virtue either.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said befolp the country.
That's simply the remainers being on the wrong side of the argument for a change.
It's been pointed out for years that constantly ignoring the views of large segments of the electorate would lead to them pushing back. The people moaning have sung lalala for 15 years and now sound surprised that what worked for them has been rejected by the majority of their compatriots.
Indeed. But that is no reason to do the same now you have the ascendancy.
And who's doing that ? Most of the lalala on the site is Leavers reacting to remainers who think the campaign is still running. Give it a rest and maybe we can discuss the issues with the new facts in front of us.
As one example people who say the vote hasn't caused problems and splits, as we've seen on this very thread.
I'd suggest you take your own advice and give it a rest.
My wife has just come back from England. She's Italian and she felt alienated and unwanted. This is the impact that Brexit is having on foreigners living or working in Britain, contributing to the economy. The vile, disgusting Leave campaign has sadly unleashed this horror show.
But, we Remainers are fucking angry, as angry as we've ever been. And we are on the side of sense and rationality unlike the Brexit ideologues.
Who alienated her or and what did they do to make her feel unwanted? Or has she just been listening to too much of your bullcrap?
I'm not as vehement about it as tyson, and accept that Leave supporters come in all shapes and sizes. But I have a lot of non-UK EU national friends who do all, without exception, range from dismay to sadness to anger and feel very personally rejected. One friend who was looking for a senior IT job in Britain has cancelled all her applications here, because she doesn't want to live in a country where she believes she'd be unwelcome.
Whoever wins as new PM could do worse than offering some reassuring words, rather than merely treating the right of EU nationals already here to remain as a bargaining chip, as May has just done.
And this is what the headbanging right-wing fruitcakes on here are missing. There is now a general feeling of unease among ethnic minorities. I think pretty much most (though not all) of my BAME friends feel this. When you hear and read about the surge in hate crime, this only reinforces the feeling of unease.
Sad, sad times - all self-inflicted.
What a melodramatic jessie
Chill man - you got what you wanted - the second referendum and an independent Scotland.
Far from certain yet , but getting there, especially if May the Merciless gets control
Malc, if Scotland gets powers over fisheries and agriculture back from the EU under Brexit (pretty much inevitable if we get a good post-Brexit PM who wants to keep Scotland on board), would you be happy campaigning on a platform to take these away from Scotland and give them to the EU? Take Scottish fishermen's jobs away and give up fishing quotas in Scotland's waters to trawlers from the EU? How can you sell this to anyone, or yourself for that matter?
Lucky, Westminster allow no Scottish involvement in fisheries now so there is zero chance they will be any different when they get full control back themselves. I firmly believe we would have more input with EU than we would have with Westminster.
As to why: I'd say the the tone of the Brexit campaign might have had something to do with it. Feel free to disagree.
I think is has much more to do with the bigotry and closed mindedness of Remainers.
If you're constantly claiming that Leave is racism and Leave wants foreigners out then a Leave win would imply the nation is racist and wants foreigners out.
Of course the Leave campaign as led by Johnson, Gove, Leadsom etc were nothing of the sort but why let facts get in the way?
*Some* remainers. You must admit the bigotry and closed-mindedness has also been rampant on leave's side as well.
I did not for one miunte expect £350m for the NHS I dont expect immigration to come to a halt
Great!
The problem though is that you seem unwilling to acknowledge that many Leave voters did, and when they are disabused of those notions there will be tears
And those who voted Leave "for entirely noble reasons" can't wash their hands of the consequences of those who voted Leave to satisfy baser instincts
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
Hold on till I get this violin tuned up, you almost brought a tear to my glass eye there.
Malc, once again you're showing why we all love you so much.
I feel that love , ambulance will be picking me up in 5 minutes.
The three people most likely to be our next PM are May, Leadsom and Gove. Two are arch brexiteers and can't wait to get around the negotiating table, the third has openly stated "Brexit means Brexit."
So we should trust, unequivocally, what that what these politicians say now, they will do once they win their election?
That's an interesting mindset.
No, but I'm sensing no mood that suggests anything other than acceptance of the result. Other than from David Lammy and the Lib Dems. And even the Lib Dems are saying they want to fight it as a position at an election.
For one thing, it's self-preservation. The Tory Party will not survive backtracking on Brexit. It will disintegrate.
After all the dirty tricks pulled by Remain Tories during the campaign, I simply don't trust them an inch.
£9m leaflets, kick starting their campaign weeks before the Electoral Commission chose an official Leave one, using every pre Purdah and legislative lever, two extra days to register for a two hour hiccup...
And yet, still they were Losers....
Yes. But please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. May is Osborne's candidate, positioned as the Brexit insurance candidate from the very start. She would ditch Brexit as quickly as she's ditched her pledge to leave the ECHR. This toxic bunch needs to be flushed.
I'm campaigning for all the Brexit candidates vs May.
She's a career slitherer, not someone of principle.
Why would you want someone of principle? I want someone who does what works, not someone with preconceived ideas.
Because I want the result of the referendum delivered in its widely understood sense, not a subset of it that's handy for a small number of businesses.
That means an extra £350m to the NHS every week as was so clearly painted on the bus. Right ?
Plus no cuts in other public services and tax cuts. Then there are all current EU subsidies and grants that need to be honoured in full - as promised. Not to mention cheaper housing, higher wages and more jobs. Then we have those extraordinary trade deals. It's going to be great.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said befolp the country.
That's simply the remainers being on the wrong side of the argument for a change.
It's been pointed out for years that constantly ignoring the views of large segments of the electorate would lead to them pushing back. The people moaning have sung lalala for 15 years and now sound surprised that what worked for them has been rejected by the majority of their compatriots.
Indeed. But that is no reason to do the same now you have the ascendancy.
And who's doing that ? Most of the lalala on the site is Leavers reacting to remainers who think the campaign is still running. Give it a rest and maybe we can discuss the issues with the new facts in front of us.
As one example people who say the vote hasn't caused problems and splits, as we've seen on this very thread.
I'd suggest you take your own advice and give it a rest.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
One or two, particularly Tyson atm. But you can hardly say that leavers are being paragons of virtue either.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
I disagree, and I'm quite bemused you're not seeing it. Have you borrowed Malc's glass eye?
The point that was clear was leave, the other details may need democratic clarification too, in the form of a GE on what negotiating stance to take.
Indeed.
And in 3 months, Theresa May going to the country on a platform of single market access with free movement to stabilise the economy would win in a landslide.
Andrea Leadsom on a platform of closed borders, no £350m, and economic chaos, would lose to Jeremy Corbyn
You are delusional.
Leadsom just won a majority of the nation backing precisely that.
Unfortunately Scott is right. We can't have any leavers at the top. They are bound by Gove's stupid campaign promises, we can't restrict free movement without leaving the single market. Leadsom and the other leave leaders promised the impossible. We need a grown up to tell it how it is.
No we need a Leaver at the top to fight for as much as is possible of that promised and compromise on the rest then tell the country they did the best they could. Take responsibility from start to finish and then be judged accordingly.
A Remainer who is willing to compromise on everything immediately will get the worst possible deal.
As to why: I'd say the the tone of the Brexit campaign might have had something to do with it. Feel free to disagree.
I think is has much more to do with the bigotry and closed mindedness of Remainers.
If you're constantly claiming that Leave is racism and Leave wants foreigners out then a Leave win would imply the nation is racist and wants foreigners out.
Of course the Leave campaign as led by Johnson, Gove, Leadsom etc were nothing of the sort but why let facts get in the way?
Except for the Turks bit, of course.
Remainers need to accept that the vast majority of those people who voted Leave did so with the most honourable of intentions; and are not racists and xenophobes. But I think Leavers would also do well to accept that a lot of non-UK nationals who live in this country and have made a great contribution to it now feel worried and, in many cases, more unwelcome than they felt previously. Others will not, of course.
That's absolutely why we need to swiftly move to EEA membership and announce to the world we are still an open society, we just wanted no part of the political side of the EU.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
He is not witty at all and for you to allude that it is OK if it is Sean doing it but not someone else tends to blunt your faux outrage at Richard's comments. Selective "nasty" is far worse than the comment.
No it isn't: but the tone of SeanT's posts, along with his frequent swings one way and t'other means it's slightly harder to take him seriously when he's in one of his moods.
As for your last sentence: lol.
If you notice Josias- I very rarely make any personal attacks on other posters.
True. You tend to restrict your personal attacks to Plato. As i have said already you're just not a very nice person.
There's a childish little gang on here - it's a pathetically sad reflection on them, and has zip effect on me. I've no idea what contest they think they're winning. I seem to recall we've been here before.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Well it's up to you of course but I think you should make it up with your brother... Life is too short and you never know when you might need a Kidney...
"So we will soon be faced with this question: do we as a nation hate foreigners sufficiently to deny ourselves access to the single market? This might easily be rephrased as: is Britain too racist to be a leading nation in a modern globalised world? However one puts it, it’s a question that will soon need to be resolved because, as we stand, the future PM has no mandate on what sort of Brexit to negotiate." Ishiguro in FT.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Don't forget this:
' People in the North East have voted "no" in a referendum on whether to set up an elected regional assembly.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott admitted his plans for regional devolution had suffered an "emphatic defeat" on Thursday night.
The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour. '
' BBC political editor Andrew Marr said many in the No Camp were Eurosceptic campaigners and ministers would need to reflect on the lessons for its referendum on the new European constitution. '
I see thousands of people in London think mob rule should overturn democracy.
IF it had been close like the Austrian election I could understand & i can understand frustrations in Scotland but exc Scotland it was 54/46...that isn't "close". There was a million+ votes between. I don't remember anybody claimi Obama wasn't fairly elected with only 51% of the vote or khan etc etc etc.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
Hold on till I get this violin tuned up, you almost brought a tear to my glass eye there.
Malc, once again you're showing why we all love you so much.
I feel that love , ambulance will be picking me up in 5 minutes.
Eliza, I meant to ask: did the drunken first years at the Uni of West Scotland who programmed you go on to work for Microsoft?
I did not for one miunte expect £350m for the NHS I dont expect immigration to come to a halt
Great!
The problem though is that you seem unwilling to acknowledge that many Leave voters did, and when they are disabused of those notions there will be tears
And those who voted Leave "for entirely noble reasons" can't wash their hands of the consequences of those who voted Leave to satisfy baser instincts
Then let Nigel Farage have his day. We'll deal with the consequences of that later. If the likes of Plato and others feel betrayed then so be it, we can reduce immigration with policies in the UK and hopefully Theresa has the cojones to do it.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive. But I guess the feeling would be mutual so no love lost. My oldest and dearest friend is a staunch, libertarian Tory right winger who probably would never admit to me if he voted Brexit or not.
Tyson "No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive."
Q: Do they have a peculiar smell or have features that repell you or are you just a sad inadequate man?
He fantasised about me in a threesome with Anne Coulter and Katie Hopkins - I think he needs help.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
That is indeed a critical point. It may be in years to come I am forced to confess to being an idiot, should the worst case scenario occur, but I would feel mitigated in that idiocy somewhat in that the EU has done a terrible job justifying its own existence.
Those advocating we remain in the EU failed to make their case during the campaign. Their hyperbolic scaremongering resulted in the people giving a big middle finger to the unelected EU Establishment and the British government.
If that very Establishment now think that the result of consulting the People can be ignored, they can expect a UKIP landslide at best, and civil unrest at worst. As we have seen from the reaction to the vote in other countries, this is not a problem confined to the UK, it's being seen in other European countries as well as the USA.
It's not unreasonable to hope that the government, having legislated for the referendum, had given some thought to how they might implement a leave decision.
Except they did.
They had contingency plans at the Bank of England and the Treasury which they implemented immediately.
But the tedious spin from the whining Brexiteers elides the point we have just been making that there is no form to what "a leave decision" looks like.
You can't plan smoke.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are invoking Article 50, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are ending FoM, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are signing up to EEA, Brexiteers would have whined.
So we are left with Brexiteers whining about thing not done, which is perhaps the lesser of two evils
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
The key to Leave winning was the Fear of Mass Immigration. It overwhelmed any logic which might have been introduced to the debate.
And any half-sensible Remainer would have known that was the issue to address from day one of the campaign. I had been saying for months that the referendum was lost if it came down to who controls our borders - Britain or Brussels.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
One or two, particularly Tyson atm. But you can hardly say that leavers are being paragons of virtue either.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
I disagree, and I'm quite bemused you're not seeing it. Have you borrowed Malc's glass eye?
Show me what dismay there is here that there wasn't eg when the Tories won a majority last year?
It's democracy. We get grumbles from the losers (especially if the losers are in the vocal young left) but then life goes on
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
I did not for one miunte expect £350m for the NHS I dont expect immigration to come to a halt
Great!
The problem though is that you seem unwilling to acknowledge that many Leave voters did, and when they are disabused of those notions there will be tears
And those who voted Leave "for entirely noble reasons" can't wash their hands of the consequences of those who voted Leave to satisfy baser instincts
What nonsense. It's a referendum you vote for what's best for you, not for some kind of pseudo guilt trip on what others might think.
If it were a matter of moral repulsion there were more than enough people in Remain to make us all stay at home.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
That is indeed a critical point. It may be in years to come I am forced to confess to being an idiot, should the worst case scenario occur, but I would feel mitigated in that idiocy somewhat in that the EU has done a terrible job justifying its own existence.
Those advocating we remain in the EU failed to make their case during the campaign. Their hyperbolic scaremongering resulted in the people giving a big middle finger to the unelected EU Establishment and the British government.
If that very Establishment now think that the result of consulting the People can be ignored, they can expect a UKIP landslide at best, and civil unrest at worst. As we have seen from the reaction to the vote in other countries, this is not a problem confined to the UK, it's being seen in other European countries as well as the USA.
Yep, that is true. Outside of the nationalist right the reaction abroad seems to have been one of complete astonishment. Outside the UK the mainstream opinion is that the vote was a ludicrous act of self-harm. It is now up to the Leavers to show that is wrong, while also delivering on the promises made during the campaign. Very soon we will have a cabinet dominated by Leave Tories, so a start will hopefully be made.
The misery of people who grew up thinking they were entitled to swimming pools in Hungary, villas in Tuscany and a sybaritic lifestyle in the south of France make me think that it is time to revive the Society to aid distressed gentlefolk. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im19761021CL-Dis.jpg
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
Oddly enough I was thinking about the Peasants Revolt a couple of weeks ago.
Another movement which was based in Eastern England.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
One or two, particularly Tyson atm. But you can hardly say that leavers are being paragons of virtue either.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
I disagree, and I'm quite bemused you're not seeing it. Have you borrowed Malc's glass eye?
Show me what dismay there is here that there wasn't eg when the Tories won a majority last year?
It's democracy. We get grumbles from the losers (especially if the losers are in the vocal young left) but then life goes on
This is different: we're getting grumbles from the winners as well!
I know what you're saying, and I daresay you'll disagree, but this feels like it's something more.
I am slightly concerned that intelligent leavers on here simply aren't seeing it. It does not bode well IMO. It's time for the divisions in our society to be closed, not widened.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Well it's up to you of course but I think you should make it up with your brother... Life is too short and you never know when you might need a Kidney...
And it isn't really consistent with the inclusive, harmonious, cultured society that you usually advocate.
If Leadsom gets it we're in trouble, nowhere near enough experience for the most challenging period we have had for a long time. It's ideological again and look where ideology has got us. What happened to proper conservatism, doing what works and what is the stable option? The clue's in the name, people. all i see now are ideologues with their pet ideas that they seek to foist on people. I wish we weren't in such a chaotic position and having to make such a choice but, if it has to be anyone, a pragmatist is needed (and labour should heed that advice as well). I'm glad the Telegraoh deleted that article but what were they thinking?
I think we could do with a fresh start and Leadsom can provide that.
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
Yes, deficit reduction, the mantra of the last 6 years, suddenly not necessary. If it was so important until now, why is it not important any more ?
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
Careful Mr. G, that comes close to be a moustacheist comment. There is nothing wrong, for all what P.G. Wodehouse said, in having a moustache, indeed there is much to commend it.
(memo: to self pop into the awfully nice Turkish barber's next week and have the old walrus trimmed back.)
By the way Mr. G. I was up in Leeds the week before last and in a Tesco's Express, an express mind you, a bottle of the Grouse was £15 but a litre was just £16. I don't know how the Scottish economy copes with such crazy pricing.
Hello Hurst, I was of course referring to May with a moustache, perfectly proper on a Gentleman. We are such giving people we love to spread our love and so make our whisky affordable. No rapacious London lawyers here.
The misery of people who grew up thinking they were entitled to swimming pools in Hungary, villas in Tuscany and a sybaritic lifestyle in the south of France make me think that it is time to revive the Society to aid distressed gentlefolk. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im19761021CL-Dis.jpg
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
Ha, ha - look who led the peasants' revolt then compare and contrast with who led the Leave campaign. And we all know how the peasants' revolt ended.
It's not unreasonable to hope that the government, having legislated for the referendum, had given some thought to how they might implement a leave decision.
Except they did.
They had contingency plans at the Bank of England and the Treasury which they implemented immediately.
But the tedious spin from the whining Brexiteers elides the point we have just been making that there is no form to what "a leave decision" looks like.
You can't plan smoke.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are invoking Article 50, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are ending FoM, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are signing up to EEA, Brexiteers would have whined.
So we are left with Brexiteers whining about thing not done, which is perhaps the lesser of two evils
So are you admitting that the government was lying when they said there weren't contingency plans and that there would be an Emergency Budget to raise taxes and cut spending ?
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
I did laugh at Osborne claiming he was going to put back his deficit target, given there was zero chance of him hitting it in the first place.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Don't forget this:
' People in the North East have voted "no" in a referendum on whether to set up an elected regional assembly.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott admitted his plans for regional devolution had suffered an "emphatic defeat" on Thursday night.
The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour. '
' BBC political editor Andrew Marr said many in the No Camp were Eurosceptic campaigners and ministers would need to reflect on the lessons for its referendum on the new European constitution. '
I honestly can't get my head around the nonsense from some of the most entitled Remainers. They lost. We're a week on and they're still outraged, trying to overturn the result or weasel out of it.
This entire campaign period has exposed some very ugly, and anti-democratic attitudes from the Establishment. People whom I expected much better of have smeared Leavers as chavvy scum, racists, bigots, stupid, should be prevented from voting, too old to have a legitimate view, have never met a foreigner...
Perhaps one day they work out why they lost. I suspect not, given current form.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
I disagree, and I'm quite bemused you're not seeing it. Have you borrowed Malc's glass eye?
Show me what dismay there is here that there wasn't eg when the Tories won a majority last year?
It's democracy. We get grumbles from the losers (especially if the losers are in the vocal young left) but then life goes on
This is different: we're getting grumbles from the winners as well!
I know what you're saying, and I daresay you'll disagree, but this feels like it's something more.
I am slightly concerned that intelligent leavers on here simply aren't seeing it. It does not bode well IMO. It's time for the divisions in our society to be closed, not widened.
The only difference is that this time there is no clear victor. Nobody has marched into Downing Street and reshuffled the government picking new secretaries of state.
The campaign isn't fully over yet and won't be until we have a new PM. So new divisions arise as we are in a new stage of the campaign. Still just politics as normal. On steroids, but as normal.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
If you read last night, it was leavers who were saying it would be a disaster if we tried to control immigration, despite that being one of the cornerstones of the leave campaign.
As for the rest of your paragraph: I'm not sure Charles, RCS, Max, Richard Tyndall etc are the "little people" of this country!
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
Yes, deficit reduction, the mantra of the last 6 years, suddenly not necessary. If it was so important until now, why is it not important any more ?
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
And cheered to the rafters by Tory Leavers who claim they are on the side of ordinary voters. It's hilarious. And an open goal should Labour ever get its act together. The government's entire line of attack on Labour has been destroyed.
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
Yes, deficit reduction, the mantra of the last 6 years, suddenly not necessary. If it was so important until now, why is it not important any more ?
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
Bull. It entirely made sense to cut the deficit while the nation was growing in preparation for the next crash.
Osborne seems to genuinely believe we are now entering that next crash. That means then we change tact accordingly.
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
Yes, deficit reduction, the mantra of the last 6 years, suddenly not necessary. If it was so important until now, why is it not important any more ?
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
I think the argument is that it is still desirable/necessary but not achievable given the changed circumstances after last week. It's mainly pragmatic and a bit opportunistic and 100% Tory!
One undoubted benefit of the Leave vote is that the government's entire fiscal and economic policy has been abandoned, so demonstrating what a sham it was in the first place.
Yes, deficit reduction, the mantra of the last 6 years, suddenly not necessary. If it was so important until now, why is it not important any more ?
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
Bull. It entirely made sense to cut the deficit while the nation was growing in preparation for the next crash.
Osborne seems to genuinely believe we are now entering that next crash. That means then we change tact accordingly.
It is basic economics 101.
So either Osborne is right and leaving has put us on a serious downward trajectory or we can expect the next Chancellor to reinstate the targets. I wonder which it will be.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive. But I guess the feeling would be mutual so no love lost. My oldest and dearest friend is a staunch, libertarian Tory right winger who probably would never admit to me if he voted Brexit or not.
Tyson "No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive."
Q: Do they have a peculiar smell or have features that repell you or are you just a sad inadequate man?
He fantasised about me in a threesome with Anne Coulter and Katie Hopkins - I think he needs help.
He certainly does need help. What kind of right wing female threesome doesn't include Edwina Currie?
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Yes there's no resentment or spite being shown here by Remainers whatsoever.
One or two, particularly Tyson atm. But you can hardly say that leavers are being paragons of virtue either.
Some leavers are coming across as being the worst winners ever. It's as if they'd (some, not all) written their program expecting to lose, and have not been able to reprogram themselves for victory.
Worse, the denial we see on here from leavers about the dismay and problems the vote has caused does not bode well for the future.
What dismay? There's been no more dismay than is caused whenever democracy takes place with millions losing the vote. Que sera sera.
I disagree, and I'm quite bemused you're not seeing it. Have you borrowed Malc's glass eye?
The point that was clear was leave, the other details may need democratic clarification too, in the form of a GE on what negotiating stance to take.
Indeed.
And in 3 months, Theresa May going to the country on a platform of single market access with free movement to stabilise the economy would win in a landslide.
Andrea Leadsom on a platform of closed borders, no £350m, and economic chaos, would lose to Jeremy Corbyn
You are delusional.
Leadsom just won a majority of the nation backing precisely that.
Unfortunately Scott is right. We can't have any leavers at the top. They are bound by Gove's stupid campaign promises, we can't restrict free movement without leaving the single market. Leadsom and the other leave leaders promised the impossible. We need a grown up to tell it how it is.
If the new leader came back from Brussels with a deal for associate membership with restrictions on freedom of movement but full market access and continuing participation in the institutions would you think she was a hero or a villain? Such a deal would be way more popular than the EEA.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
If you read last night, it was leavers who were saying it would be a disaster if we tried to control immigration, despite that being one of the cornerstones of the leave campaign.
As for the rest of your paragraph: I'm not sure Charles, RCS, Max, Richard Tyndall etc are the "little people" of this country!
Lord Rothermere, the Barclay brothers and Rupert Murdoch have at last ended up on the winning side :-D
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
The key to Leave winning was the Fear of Mass Immigration. It overwhelmed any logic which might have been introduced to the debate.
And any half-sensible Remainer would have known that was the issue to address from day one of the campaign. I had been saying for months that the referendum was lost if it came down to who controls our borders - Britain or Brussels.
And uncontrolled immigration is a symptom of lack of control over borders/sovereignty.
According to Ashcroft's post Brexit polling - sovereignty was paramount to decision making, then immigration/border control, then Remaining meant more loss of control in the future.
Those are three things that all say the same thing. Control, control, control. And most of the country are very/pretty concerned about immigration. To pretend this isn't the case will make things even worse.
Dave gone, Boris gone. What about Osborne? That's the litmus test. I think May would keep him but Gove/Leadsom wouldn't.
When was the last time, outside a GE, that so many political ambitions came falling down in just a few days? Both the Conservatives and Labour are seeing leadership hopefuls' ambitions wilt.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
Hold on till I get this violin tuned up, you almost brought a tear to my glass eye there.
Malc, once again you're showing why we all love you so much.
I feel that love , ambulance will be picking me up in 5 minutes.
Eliza, I meant to ask: did the drunken first years at the Uni of West Scotland who programmed you go on to work for Microsoft?
They went down hill and went on to IBM Super Computers , Watson etc after me.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
Ha, ha - look who led the peasants' revolt then compare and contrast with who led the Leave campaign. And we all know how the peasants' revolt ended.
The leaders of the peasant's revolt in 1381 were the educated from modest backgrounds not the aristocracy, when it comes to 2016 the leaders were much the same, bar Johnson. I hope that the end result this time will better than that of the 14th century.
I think that the point remains that this time the "little people" have stuck up two fingers to their "betters", they didn't vote as they were supposed to, as the ruling class expected.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
Hold on till I get this violin tuned up, you almost brought a tear to my glass eye there.
Malc, once again you're showing why we all love you so much.
I feel that love , ambulance will be picking me up in 5 minutes.
Eliza, I meant to ask: did the drunken first years at the Uni of West Scotland who programmed you go on to work for Microsoft?
They went down hill and went on to IBM Super Computers , Watson etc after me.
LOL back.
Never underestimate the mind-enhancing ability of 80 shilling ...
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
Ha, ha - look who led the peasants' revolt then compare and contrast with who led the Leave campaign. And we all know how the peasants' revolt ended.
The leaders of the peasant's revolt in 1381 were the educated from modest backgrounds not the aristocracy, when it comes to 2016 the leaders were much the same, bar Johnson. I hope that the end result this time will better than that of the 14th century.
I think that the point remains that this time the "little people" have stuck up two fingers to their "betters", they didn't vote as they were supposed to, as the ruling class expected.
And that's fantastic. Except if Brexit ends up harming the "little people". The ruling class, of course, will be entirely unaffected.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
Poor Remain, that had every advantage of Government, civil service, £9m of tax-payers cash, the US President, Project Fear, David Beckham, big business, Brussels, the City, David Cameron, economic collapse if it failed - yet still blew it. And all Leave had was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote to an American chum last week that we had just had a peasants' revolt the first since the 14th century. I made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek. However, as this last week has progressed, and particularly as I read the comments on here, I am not sure I wasn't correct.
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
Everyday, I'm more heartened. The OTT wailing by those who didn't bother to vote, and insulting over half who did is something to behold.
A very British coup. I did enjoy a comment from a Slovakian big cheese offering us assistance on *velvet revolutions*.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Don't forget this:
' People in the North East have voted "no" in a referendum on whether to set up an elected regional assembly.
The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour. '
' BBC political editor Andrew Marr said many in the No Camp were Eurosceptic campaigners and ministers would need to reflect on the lessons for its referendum on the new European constitution. '
I honestly can't get my head around the nonsense from some of the most entitled Remainers. They lost. We're a week on and they're still outraged, trying to overturn the result or weasel out of it.
This entire campaign period has exposed some very ugly, and anti-democratic attitudes from the Establishment. People whom I expected much better of have smeared Leavers as chavvy scum, racists, bigots, stupid, should be prevented from voting, too old to have a legitimate view, have never met a foreigner...
Perhaps one day they work out why they lost. I suspect not, given current form.
Just a few facts:
The referendum was advisory. The result was close 51.9 to 48.1 Since then polls show some people regret voting Leave and would now vote Remain.
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Richard, I'd hope after you calm down you'd retract that. It looks really bad.
Yes, Tyson's upset at the referendum result and is intemperate. Sadly, unlike SeanT, he's not witty when angry. But what you wrote above is just plain nasty.
And what Tyson said about people who voted to Leave wasn't?
I'm not defending Tyson's comments; I've said before he sometimes goes too far with what he says.
But Richard is generally a poster who tries to add value to his site, I think more than Tyson. I don't always agree with him (cough) last night (cough), but he generally approaches things in an evidence-based way that I appreciate, even when I disagree with him.
As an aside, perhaps some people blasting Tyson should actually think whether he's got a point despite his language. Friends of mine are also feeling rather unloved by Britain. Closing your eyes and putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala will not help the country.
Hold on till I get this violin tuned up, you almost brought a tear to my glass eye there.
Malc, once again you're showing why we all love you so much.
I feel that love , ambulance will be picking me up in 5 minutes.
Eliza, I meant to ask: did the drunken first years at the Uni of West Scotland who programmed you go on to work for Microsoft?
They went down hill and went on to IBM Super Computers , Watson etc after me.
LOL back.
Never underestimate the mind-enhancing ability of 80 shilling ...
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive. But I guess the feeling would be mutual so no love lost. My oldest and dearest friend is a staunch, libertarian Tory right winger who probably would never admit to me if he voted Brexit or not.
Tyson "No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive."
Q: Do they have a peculiar smell or have features that repell you or are you just a sad inadequate man?
He fantasised about me in a threesome with Anne Coulter and Katie Hopkins - I think he needs help.
He certainly does need help. What kind of right wing female threesome doesn't include Edwina Currie?
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convince the population of the merit of their case. If you can't win an argument against idiots, what does that say?
Yes, the things that Remain got wrong are almost too numerous to mention. Nevertheless, Leave ruthlessly tapped in to the nation's dark underbelly of resentment and spite . Poor Remain, with its old-fashioned ideas of cooperation and decency, never stood a chance.
The key to Leave winning was the Fear of Mass Immigration. It overwhelmed any logic which might have been introduced to the debate.
And any half-sensible Remainer would have known that was the issue to address from day one of the campaign. I had been saying for months that the referendum was lost if it came down to who controls our borders - Britain or Brussels.
And uncontrolled immigration is a symptom of lack of control over borders/sovereignty.
According to Ashcroft's post Brexit polling - sovereignty was paramount to decision making, then immigration/border control, then Remaining meant more loss of control in the future.
Those are three things that all say the same thing. Control, control, control. And most of the country are very/pretty concerned about immigration. To pretend this isn't the case will make things even worse.
Ashcroft's poll is just a poll (*spit*!). It does do a little bit of myth-busting - 43% of ABs voted Leave. It confirms others: older people were more likely to vote Leave, graduates more likely to want Remain.
I'd just like to make a point (based on figures from the 2006 DfES report). High numbers of graduates are a recent phenomenon. Only 3.4% of the 1950 cohort went into higher education. It was 8.4% in 1970, 19.3% in 1990.
It used to be perfectly possible to succeed in life without a degree. My siblings and I went to a grammar school and left in the late 70s/early 80s. Only around 20% of the sixth form went to university.
My family (impeccably working class) was unusual in that two of us went to university. My youngest sister (indisputably the most intelligent in our family) has only A-levels to her name (I took a 1st, my other sis a 2:1).
Day 9 - Tyson reaches Phase 2 or 3 within the (5 or 7) stages of grieving - Anger....
Tyson is just a whining maggot infesting the rotten apple core that is the EU. The sooner he decides to leave the UK permanently the better.
Bit harsh Richard!!
Not at all , he is like a broken record and does not even live in the country.
Right...I live in a beautiful flat, part of a Tuscan Villa, in the Tuscan Hills, overlooking the City of Florence. We normally lend it to friends and family when we are away....sadly, I have had to cancel 2 invitations to Brexiters, my Brexit brother and his Brexit family, and a Brexit friend (well ex) after last week. I want a Brexit free life, a Brexit free home, a Brexit free area, Brexitless friends, including family.
Contrary to what Plato thinks I have some very dear friends who are staunch Tories....but Brexit sadly, is a bridge too far.
I think in the future the word Brexit will be as contemptuous and vile as the movement behind it. It will be synonymous with nihilism, racism, populism, reactionary right wing ideologues, hate and negativity.
Liar Liar Pants On Fire
You've said here more than once that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory.
No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive. But I guess the feeling would be mutual so no love lost. My oldest and dearest friend is a staunch, libertarian Tory right winger who probably would never admit to me if he voted Brexit or not.
Tyson "No- I said I could never have a long term intimate relationship with an ideological female right wing zealot. I find them particularly unattractive."
Q: Do they have a peculiar smell or have features that repell you or are you just a sad inadequate man?
He fantasised about me in a threesome with Anne Coulter and Katie Hopkins - I think he needs help.
He certainly does need help. What kind of right wing female threesome doesn't include Edwina Currie?
Searching for my service revolver
Afternoon Malc.
I notice even you advised Tyson that he might be taking this Brexit stuff just a bit too far... Who would have thunk it, MalcG the voice of reason!
If you read last night, it was leavers who were saying it would be a disaster if we tried to control immigration, despite that being one of the cornerstones of the leave campaign.
As for the rest of your paragraph: I'm not sure Charles, RCS, Max, Richard Tyndall etc are the "little people" of this country!
Mr. Jessop, I was on here for a bit last night but didn't notice Leavers saying it would be a disaster if we tried to control immigration. Frankly, even if some did I would disagree with them - I don't think we can import the equivalent of the City of Cardiff every year without there being serious negative consequences.
As for who voted to leave: I agree Mr. Charles cannot be counted amongst the "little people", as to the others you mention I have no idea of their background. Nonetheless we have been constantly told that it was the C2DE's that won it for Leave (though to be fair someone did post on here that 43% of the ABC1s voted for leave, something that seems not to be mentioned too much, can't imagine why).
If Leadsom gets it we're in trouble, nowhere near enough experience for the most challenging period we have had for a long time. It's ideological again and look where ideology has got us. What happened to proper conservatism, doing what works and what is the stable option? The clue's in the name, people. all i see now are ideologues with their pet ideas that they seek to foist on people. I wish we weren't in such a chaotic position and having to make such a choice but, if it has to be anyone, a pragmatist is needed (and labour should heed that advice as well). I'm glad the Telegraoh deleted that article but what were they thinking?
I think we could do with a fresh start and Leadsom can provide that.
Putting aside my preference for a Leaver like Leadsom, I think we're overdue for a reset. Labour are still fighting over Blairites et al too.
I'm hoping we've reached a watershed in terms of addressing a lot of ignored issues - most of which are deliberate blind-eyeing by the media and Establishment. It'll be a lot healthier to deal with them, than name call those who object.
Too many in our political class are serving themselves, not those who elected them.
In a perverse way I'm now hoping Trump is victorious in the US, because that would at least suggest that we don't have the monopoly on cretinous bigots. But, either way, Britain's reputation as a nation of fair play and tolerance is in tatters.
Your making an awful lot out of the fact that the supposedly intellectually superior Remainers had a campaign that was unable to convin was Ian Botham and the right to determine our own destiny, rather than take that given to us by the EU....
We'd that chappy from Wetherspoons too with his beermats. If ever there was a David vs Goliath triumph it was Brexit.
Miss. P., I wrote on hgainst their masters.
Ha, ha - look who led the peasants' revolt then compare and contrast with who led the Leave campaign. And we all know how the peasants' revolt ended.
The leaders of the peasant's revolt in 1381 were the educated from modest backgrounds not the aristocracy, when it comes to 2016 the leaders were much the same, bar Johnson. I hope that the end result this time will better than that of the 14th century.
I think that the point remains that this time the "little people" have stuck up two fingers to their "betters", they didn't vote as they were supposed to, as the ruling class expected.
And that's fantastic. Except if Brexit ends up harming the "little people". The ruling class, of course, will be entirely unaffected.
Ever the Remainer SO it's not about the money. :-)
If you view it only in financial terms you are most likely correct. However the british establishment has just had the biggest kicking I can remember. The certainties of last month are no longer certain and from herfe on they now will have to take on board the electorates view rather than just assume they have nowhere lesel to go.
It's not unreasonable to hope that the government, having legislated for the referendum, had given some thought to how they might implement a leave decision.
Except they did.
They had contingency plans at the Bank of England and the Treasury which they implemented immediately.
But the tedious spin from the whining Brexiteers elides the point we have just been making that there is no form to what "a leave decision" looks like.
You can't plan smoke.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are invoking Article 50, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are ending FoM, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are signing up to EEA, Brexiteers would have whined.
So we are left with Brexiteers whining about thing not done, which is perhaps the lesser of two evils
No, the contingency plans were to deal with immediate impact of a leave vote not implementing a leave decision. HMG needed to have thought seriously about how we might leave the EU given that they had given the people this binary choice. Especially so given that Cameron repeatedly said that he would be staying on no matter what the decision.
As for who voted to leave: I agree Mr. Charles cannot be counted amongst the "little people", as to the others you mention I have no idea of their background. Nonetheless we have been constantly told that it was the C2DE's that won it for Leave (though to be fair someone did post on here that 43% of the ABC1s voted for leave, something that seems not to be mentioned too much, can't imagine why).
Also 41% of London voted for Leave as well, a fact rather glossed over by people trying to big up the London as Global City schtick.
The point that was clear was leave, the other details may need democratic clarification too, in the form of a GE on what negotiating stance to take.
Indeed.
And in 3 months, Theresa May going to the country on a platform of single market access with free movement to stabilise the economy would win in a landslide.
Andrea Leadsom on a platform of closed borders, no £350m, and economic chaos, would lose to Jeremy Corbyn
You are delusional.
Leadsom just won a majority of the nation backing precisely that.
Unfortunately Scott is right. We can't have any leavers at the top. They are bound by Gove's stupid campaign promises, we can't restrict free movement without leaving the single market. Leadsom and the other leave leaders promised the impossible. We need a grown up to tell it how it is.
No we need a Leaver at the top to fight for as much as is possible of that promised and compromise on the rest then tell the country they did the best they could. Take responsibility from start to finish and then be judged accordingly.
A Remainer who is willing to compromise on everything immediately will get the worst possible deal.
Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?
We'll lose 2020 to a sensible Labour candidate with a leaver in charge.
Ever the Remainer SO it's not about the money. :-)
If you view it only in financial terms you are most likely correct. However the british establishment has just had the biggest kicking I can remember. The certainties of last month are no longer certain and from herfe on they now will have to take on board the electorates view rather than just assume they have nowhere lesel to go.
As for who voted to leave: I agree Mr. Charles cannot be counted amongst the "little people", as to the others you mention I have no idea of their background. Nonetheless we have been constantly told that it was the C2DE's that won it for Leave (though to be fair someone did post on here that 43% of the ABC1s voted for leave, something that seems not to be mentioned too much, can't imagine why).
Also 41% of London voted for Leave as well, a fact rather glossed over by people trying to big up the London as Global City schtick.
Most of the London vote for Leave came in Outer London boroughs like Havering, Barking, Bexley, Sutton and Hillingdon which all voted Leave. Not one inner London borough voted Leave
And that's fantastic. Except if Brexit ends up harming the "little people". The ruling class, of course, will be entirely unaffected.
What happens if the "little people" feel emboldened to not vote as they are supposed to again, Mr. Observer? Maybe, just maybe, politics might have been changed by this referendum.
LOL. However one puts it? Are we xenophobic or racist or just hate foreigners? Mr Ishiguro clearly sees a very wide menu of reasons why 17 plus million people voted Leave.
Just that sentence is enough to convince me that clicking the link to look at the rest of the article would be a total waste of my time.
Ashcroft's poll is just a poll (*spit*!). It does do a little bit of myth-busting - 43% of ABs voted Leave. It confirms others: older people were more likely to vote Leave, graduates more likely to want Remain.
I'd just like to make a point (based on figures from the 2006 DfES report). High numbers of graduates are a recent phenomenon. Only 3.4% of the 1950 cohort went into higher education. It was 8.4% in 1970, 19.3% in 1990.
It used to be perfectly possible to succeed in life without a degree. My siblings and I went to a grammar school and left in the late 70s/early 80s. Only around 20% of the sixth form went to university.
My family (impeccably working class) was unusual in that two of us went to university. My youngest sister (indisputably the most intelligent in our family) has only A-levels to her name (I took a 1st, my other sis a 2:1).
You make some good points. I don't have a degree, and I'm not sure it's done me much harm. In some ways it has helped; in others it has hindered. All in all I'd say it's neutral (though it helped that I went to uni and broadened my experience, just didn't finish the course).
But I do think that we as a society are putting too much emphasis on degrees. As (I think) Mr Llama has said passim, we should be looking at less people going to uni, and more into technical colleges and the like.
It'd all be different if I was in charge. Worse, but different.
As for who voted to leave: I agree Mr. Charles cannot be counted amongst the "little people", as to the others you mention I have no idea of their background. Nonetheless we have been constantly told that it was the C2DE's that won it for Leave (though to be fair someone did post on here that 43% of the ABC1s voted for leave, something that seems not to be mentioned too much, can't imagine why).
Also 41% of London voted for Leave as well, a fact rather glossed over by people trying to big up the London as Global City schtick.
Most of the London vote for Leave came in Outer London boroughs like Havering, Barking, Bexley, Sutton and Hillingdon which all voted Leave. Not one inner London borough voted Leave
Ah, I see. So the London that will vote to be a City State will start its life by shedding its outer boroughs. Thanks for the clarification.
Now that the 2nd referendum petition has run out of steam the anti-democrats are trying to petition for Article 50 to be a parliamentary vote.
We are a parliamentary democracy. The government will decide when to invoke Article 50 and no doubt take note of the advisory referendum which was passed 52:48.
Comments
Which of the Brexiteers will be the first to admit they got it completely wrong?
SeanT is not eligible for this market...
Tyson being one such - IIRC he said he would be revelling in the misery of Leavers.
The key to Leave winning was the Fear of Mass Immigration. It overwhelmed any logic which might have been introduced to the debate.
Remainers need to accept that the vast majority of those people who voted Leave did so with the most honourable of intentions; and are not racists and xenophobes. But I think Leavers would also do well to accept that a lot of non-UK nationals who live in this country and have made a great contribution to it now feel worried and, in many cases, more unwelcome than they felt previously. Others will not, of course.
I see thousands of people in London think mob rule should overturn democracy.
The problem though is that you seem unwilling to acknowledge that many Leave voters did, and when they are disabused of those notions there will be tears
And those who voted Leave "for entirely noble reasons" can't wash their hands of the consequences of those who voted Leave to satisfy baser instincts
A Remainer who is willing to compromise on everything immediately will get the worst possible deal.
Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?
https://next.ft.com/content/7877a0a6-3e11-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a
' People in the North East have voted "no" in a referendum on whether to set up an elected regional assembly.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott admitted his plans for regional devolution had suffered an "emphatic defeat" on Thursday night.
The total number of people voting against the plans was 696,519 (78%), while 197,310 (22%) voted in favour. '
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm
This was prophetic:
' BBC political editor Andrew Marr said many in the No Camp were Eurosceptic campaigners and ministers would need to reflect on the lessons for its referendum on the new European constitution. '
If that very Establishment now think that the result of consulting the People can be ignored, they can expect a UKIP landslide at best, and civil unrest at worst. As we have seen from the reaction to the vote in other countries, this is not a problem confined to the UK, it's being seen in other European countries as well as the USA.
They had contingency plans at the Bank of England and the Treasury which they implemented immediately.
But the tedious spin from the whining Brexiteers elides the point we have just been making that there is no form to what "a leave decision" looks like.
You can't plan smoke.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are invoking Article 50, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are ending FoM, Brexiteers would have whined.
If HMG had said on Friday morning we are signing up to EEA, Brexiteers would have whined.
So we are left with Brexiteers whining about thing not done, which is perhaps the lesser of two evils
It's democracy. We get grumbles from the losers (especially if the losers are in the vocal young left) but then life goes on
L/NP 74 ALP 66 Others 5
I'll have to think about it some more, but just look at who is going on about the disaster the vote will bring down on us. It ain't those who have little. Perhaps some of the undoubted ire is caused by the fact that the "little people" have had the temerity to vote against their masters.
If it were a matter of moral repulsion there were more than enough people in Remain to make us all stay at home.
Why would you trust them to fight for anything?
I suppose George Osborne has already won that award.
Another movement which was based in Eastern England.
I know what you're saying, and I daresay you'll disagree, but this feels like it's something more.
I am slightly concerned that intelligent leavers on here simply aren't seeing it. It does not bode well IMO. It's time for the divisions in our society to be closed, not widened.
The entire policy was a fraud to attack the welfare state. It was led by dogma and had very little to do with economics.
This entire campaign period has exposed some very ugly, and anti-democratic attitudes from the Establishment. People whom I expected much better of have smeared Leavers as chavvy scum, racists, bigots, stupid, should be prevented from voting, too old to have a legitimate view, have never met a foreigner...
Perhaps one day they work out why they lost. I suspect not, given current form.
The campaign isn't fully over yet and won't be until we have a new PM. So new divisions arise as we are in a new stage of the campaign. Still just politics as normal. On steroids, but as normal.
As for the rest of your paragraph: I'm not sure Charles, RCS, Max, Richard Tyndall etc are the "little people" of this country!
Osborne seems to genuinely believe we are now entering that next crash. That means then we change tact accordingly.
It is basic economics 101.
I think May would keep him but Gove/Leadsom wouldn't.
I think SO and perhaps a few others would like this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/we-need-morality-to-beat-this-hurricane-of-anger/
According to Ashcroft's post Brexit polling - sovereignty was paramount to decision making, then immigration/border control, then Remaining meant more loss of control in the future.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
Those are three things that all say the same thing. Control, control, control. And most of the country are very/pretty concerned about immigration. To pretend this isn't the case will make things even worse.
I think that the point remains that this time the "little people" have stuck up two fingers to their "betters", they didn't vote as they were supposed to, as the ruling class expected.
Never underestimate the mind-enhancing ability of 80 shilling ...
A very British coup. I did enjoy a comment from a Slovakian big cheese offering us assistance on *velvet revolutions*.
The referendum was advisory.
The result was close 51.9 to 48.1
Since then polls show some people regret voting Leave and would now vote Remain.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-want-general-election-to-be-called-this-year-a3285706.html
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024634/brexit-supporters-regret-vote
Draw your own conclusions.I would be happy for there to be a General Election when we have a new PM and maybe LotO.
I'd just like to make a point (based on figures from the 2006 DfES report). High numbers of graduates are a recent phenomenon. Only 3.4% of the 1950 cohort went into higher education. It was 8.4% in 1970, 19.3% in 1990.
It used to be perfectly possible to succeed in life without a degree. My siblings and I went to a grammar school and left in the late 70s/early 80s. Only around 20% of the sixth form went to university.
My family (impeccably working class) was unusual in that two of us went to university. My youngest sister (indisputably the most intelligent in our family) has only A-levels to her name (I took a 1st, my other sis a 2:1).
It's time for you to let go of your anger, Mr P. The only one you are upsetting is yourself.
Afternoon Malc.
I notice even you advised Tyson that he might be taking this Brexit stuff just a bit too far... Who would have thunk it, MalcG the voice of reason!
1. Destroying Cameron.
2. Destroying Osborne.
3. Persecuting foreigners.
1 has been achieved; 3 is well underway. I just hope that Osborne hangs on, at least denying total satisfaction of the Leavers' blood lust.
As for who voted to leave: I agree Mr. Charles cannot be counted amongst the "little people", as to the others you mention I have no idea of their background. Nonetheless we have been constantly told that it was the C2DE's that won it for Leave (though to be fair someone did post on here that 43% of the ABC1s voted for leave, something that seems not to be mentioned too much, can't imagine why).
I'm hoping we've reached a watershed in terms of addressing a lot of ignored issues - most of which are deliberate blind-eyeing by the media and Establishment. It'll be a lot healthier to deal with them, than name call those who object.
Too many in our political class are serving themselves, not those who elected them.
Ever the Remainer SO it's not about the money. :-)
If you view it only in financial terms you are most likely correct. However the british establishment has just had the biggest kicking I can remember. The certainties of last month are no longer certain and from herfe on they now will have to take on board the electorates view rather than just assume they have nowhere lesel to go.
Just that sentence is enough to convince me that clicking the link to look at the rest of the article would be a total waste of my time.
Outside London, the England and Wales result was 55.2-44.8 for Leave.
But I do think that we as a society are putting too much emphasis on degrees. As (I think) Mr Llama has said passim, we should be looking at less people going to uni, and more into technical colleges and the like.
It'd all be different if I was in charge. Worse, but different.
The government will decide when to invoke Article 50 and no doubt take note of the advisory referendum which was passed 52:48.