Didn't Cameron refer to these in his resignation speech ?
Well sturgeon is hamstrung isn't she - having made a real song and dance about Scotland should stay in having voted to do so - when the same argument - 10 times as large would be made about England and Wales.
I don't think she will say that E&W have to stay in as well !
so with no Scotland London will be even more beholden to the shires.
The shires are dirt poor. They live on subsidies. We pay the taxes.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
The EU will pay !!
There is no such thing as "EU money". There is only taxpayers' money!
Didn't Cameron refer to these in his resignation speech ?
Well sturgeon is hamstrung isn't she - having made a real song and dance about Scotland should stay in having voted to do so - when the same argument - 10 times as large would be made about England and Wales.
I don't think she will say that E&W have to stay in as well !
so with no Scotland London will be even more beholden to the shires.
The shires are dirt poor. They live on subsidies. We pay the taxes.
"I am actively searching through Facebook for people celebrating the Brexit leave victory, but the filter bubble is SO strong, and extends SO far into things like Facebook’s custom search that I can’t find anyone who is happy despite the fact that over half the country is clearly jubilant today and despite the fact that I’m *actively* looking to hear what they are saying..."
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
How long before the turncoat turns coat again back to the Tories?
Newham was actually less REMAIN (53%) than Redbridge (54%).
Redbridge 54% surprised me must say.
I wasn't TBF, I was one of the 46%, natch, but its area mostly consists of Ilford North and Ilford South, which are Labour.
But so are Barking and Dagenham but that was 62% Leave and even Newham was 47% Leave.
Now the Asian population in Redbridge is more affluent than that in Newham - could that have made them more Remain ?
Also would the Conservative voters in the Wanstead and Woodford areas have been more affluent and Remain than those in Havering and Epping ?
I assume that Hainault was strongly Leave being mostly wwc.
I don't think you'll find a huge Lab v Tory difference in the Referendum within London itself - it will be very interesting to see the post-vote polling breakdowns. Redbridge has far more middle class wards (and graduates etc) than Newham, which is where its more-remain leaning margin will have come from.
heh, I got a PhD
You got an ARCS too, and that's far more special.
Of course - I got to graduate in the Royal Albert Hall, not just once, but twice!
That's a REALLY good read. There will undoubtedly be some fantastic books written in the coming months and years about how a campaign with the whole Establishment behind it could lose a vote of the people.
I think you live in Scotland and you were a Brexit supporter? Are you now advocating a deal that is close to membership of the EU? Or are you simply saying that that is what Sturgeon should hope for to placate her supporters.
As a Brexiteer how would you feel if the result leads to Scottish independence which Scotland can't afford?
I do think that we want a close relationship with the EU including membership of the single market but we must have the ability to control the level of immigration from the EU.
The point I was making on the previous thread was that for Scotland a single market with rUK is not desirable but absolutely critical. When the UK was inside the EU separation from rUK did not risk that as long as Scotland was allowed to jump the queue for EU membership which was likely. Now the risks are much greater.
If the UK ends up with 5% tariffs because the EU will not give unrestricted services access and Scotland leaves to rejoin the EU we then have a tariff barrier with all the bureaucratic consequences of that for intra UK trade. Add in the likelihood that Scotland would probably have to adopt the Euro and you have currency risk as well.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
They will hold a referendum on principle, which they will likely win. Worry about the implications and how to implement it later. Very much the same idea as Leave.
You think? Last time we were presented with the total fantasy land of the SNP White Paper which explained how rich we were going to be and significant numbers chose to believe it (demonstrating the deficiencies of Scottish education better than most things).
This time we would be asked to vote for what? A principle? Not going to happen. Ruth would have a field day.
Will she be found to comment , having run away after losing on Thursday it does not bode well.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
Back to chippy shoulders.
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
How long before the turncoat turns coat again back to the Tories?
With judgment like that would the Tories want him? Grayling a serious person? Seriously?
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
You really are stupid, partnership with London my arse.
What on earth is Boris Johnson playing at, with the idea of a general election? Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show? Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
I'm trying to see how Labour could take advantage of this. Obviously first step is getting rid of Corbyn but should Labour position itself as a pro-EU party?
Do it, then Labour will finally have become the Inner London party.
They can slug it out with the other pro-EU party, the LibDems. Meaning UKIP coming through the middle, hoovering up the aged and the stupid...
Didn't Cameron refer to these in his resignation speech ?
Well sturgeon is hamstrung isn't she - having made a real song and dance about Scotland should stay in having voted to do so - when the same argument - 10 times as large would be made about England and Wales.
I don't think she will say that E&W have to stay in as well !
so with no Scotland London will be even more beholden to the shires.
The shires are dirt poor. They live on subsidies. We pay the taxes.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
Back to chippy shoulders.
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
And the English can decide the Scots don't have the rights of EU citizens, cos they got sick of the sight of foreigners.
That's a REALLY good read. There will undoubtedly be some fantastic books written in the coming months and years about how a campaign with the whole Establishment behind it could lose a vote of the people.
I'm hoping Rawnsley does one - his End of the Party was super, I read it twice back to back.
Didn't Cameron refer to these in his resignation speech ?
Well sturgeon is hamstrung isn't she - having made a real song and dance about Scotland should stay in having voted to do so - when the same argument - 10 times as large would be made about England and Wales.
I don't think she will say that E&W have to stay in as well !
so with no Scotland London will be even more beholden to the shires.
The shires are dirt poor. They live on subsidies. We pay the taxes.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Many in LEAVE said an EU without the UK was also in the best interests of the EU.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
You really are stupid, partnership with London my arse.
Newham was actually less REMAIN (53%) than Redbridge (54%).
Redbridge 54% surprised me must say.
I wasn't TBF, I was one of the 46%, natch, but its area mostly consists of Ilford North and Ilford South, which are Labour.
But so are Barking and Dagenham but that was 62% Leave and even Newham was 47% Leave.
Now the Asian population in Redbridge is more affluent than that in Newham - could that have made them more Remain ?
Also would the Conservative voters in the Wanstead and Woodford areas have been more affluent and Remain than those in Havering and Epping ?
I assume that Hainault was strongly Leave being mostly wwc.
I don't think you'll find a huge Lab v Tory difference in the Referendum within London itself - it will be very interesting to see the post-vote polling breakdowns. Redbridge has far more middle class wards (and graduates etc) than Newham, which is where its more-remain leaning margin will have come from.
heh, I got a PhD
You got an ARCS too, and that's far more special.
Of course - I got to graduate in the Royal Albert Hall, not just once, but twice!
I really need to go back to the Union Bar to drink out of my pot. It's been too long.
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
How long before the turncoat turns coat again back to the Tories?
With judgment like that would the Tories want him? Grayling a serious person? Seriously?
Go on STV Player and watch the interview with Adam Tomkins. Even the most staunchest of BritNat Tories are not fully committed to No second referendum. Ruth will struggle to have a field day when she is lacking much support even from her own party.
I guess she can rope in the funny handshake brigade but I'm not sure how well that will play out with civic Scotland.
Yep, Bettertogether II will have to accept that they'll be led by someone less effective and with fewer electoral divisions than Alistair Darling. Running on an overtly Unionist platform at the last Holyrood election, The Ruth for 2nd Best Party garnered a quarter of the 2m plus votes that BT needed to win last time out; where's Ruth going to dig up the other 1.5m this time?
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
Smart people those European Romans. Rebuild that wall.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Many in LEAVE said an EU without the UK was also in the best interests of the EU.
THe Leavers may also have started the reunification of Ireland. Irish passports for everyone.
What on earth is Boris Johnson playing at, with the idea of a general election? Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show? Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
I'm trying to see how Labour could take advantage of this. Obviously first step is getting rid of Corbyn but should Labour position itself as a pro-EU party?
Do it, then Labour will finally have become the Inner London party.
They can slug it out with the other pro-EU party, the LibDems. Meaning UKIP coming through the middle, hoovering up the aged and the stupid...
Diane Abbott I see has been saying Brexit boosts Corbyn as it shows he is closer to working people than most of the Labour establishment, I agree, this vote has shored up his position with the only plausible alternative McDonnell
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
That wall wouldn't be particularly effective at separating 21st century England and Scotland.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
That's a REALLY good read. There will undoubtedly be some fantastic books written in the coming months and years about how a campaign with the whole Establishment behind it could lose a vote of the people.
Are you talking about Brexit or the GOP primaries?
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
While I agree, if you were someone like David Lammy, and were weighing up an advisory referendum against a petition with what looks like it will reach the kind of level of support that a major party gets in a General Election, what would you do?
The petition signers may be helping to sign the Labour party's death warrant.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
That wall wouldn't be particularly effective at separating 21st century England and Scotland.
We're a lot fatter these days, and walls involve climbing, walking, all sorts of unpleasantness.
It look as if Michael Gove was telling the truth as regards not wanting to become Prime Minister - he's as big as 23 with Betfair. It's looking like a two horse race with Boris the odds-on favourite and Mrs May available at around 5/2. Personally I don't rate either of these two for the top job, so I'm tempted to have a good sprinkling of small bets on less fancied runners in the hope that someone at vastly greater odds might win. I seem to recall that at this stage of the proceedings last time, Cameron was still very much an outsider.
Is Hammond out? He's way off on BF at 170.
He must be the most invisible Foreign Secretary in living memory. One might normally have expected him to have led the Government's so-called re-negotiations with the EU, which ended in such abject failure, costing Cameron his job when he chose to show off the Emperor's new clothes. I can't recall Hammond being anywhere to be seen at the time - Cameron seemed to be solely in charge. On past performance, I'll be very surprised if he even remains in the Cabinet. Anyway, it's high time we saw some new blood promoted, the Tories are suddenly looking very stale and tired.
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
What on earth is Boris Johnson playing at, with the idea of a general election? Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show? Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
I'm trying to see how Labour could take advantage of this. Obviously first step is getting rid of Corbyn but should Labour position itself as a pro-EU party?
Do it, then Labour will finally have become the Inner London party.
They can slug it out with the other pro-EU party, the LibDems. Meaning UKIP coming through the middle, hoovering up the aged and the stupid...
Diane Abbott I see has been saying Brexit boosts Corbyn as it shows he is closer to working people than most of the Labour establishment, I agree, this vote has shored up his position with the only plausible alternative McDonnell
Well that would be delusional since Corbyn's brand of euroscepticism is diametrically opposed to that of many working people.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
There doesn't have to be a no confidence motion - an early election can be called under 2 (1-2) of the FTPA as well as 2 (3-5).
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
That wall wouldn't be particularly effective at separating 21st century England and Scotland.
We're a lot fatter these days, and walls involve climbing, walking, all sorts of unpleasantness.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
Edinburgh was an Anglo-Saxon city, correct?
So you are advocating Partition?
Do we have any previous examples of the British state involving itself in Partition when a country departs?
So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
She can't ensure that. She can't ensure anything about what the rUK would or wouldn't have. One of the four freedoms that make up the single market is freedom of movement for workers. Maybe she hopes that Scotland wouldn't be the main magnet for Polish and Romanian immigrants between the English Channel and the Faeroe Islands, because most would stay in England rather than travelling north. But she can hope what she likes. I can't see why the rUK shouldn't grant them 48 hour transit visas to travel through rUK to get to either Scotland or the Republic of Ireland.
I am not at all sure that there would be a majority for Yes in a second indyref. Not all in Scotland who voted for Remain would vote Yes. The idea of Scotland belonging to the EU while rUK is outside it is open to being shot down as completely unworkable. In any case, most of Scotland's external trade would be with the rUK, so it's the rUK who would be their most important trading partner - never mind the single market.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
The only post war precedent for a new PM calling an election is provided by Eden in 1955 after succeeding Churchill in Spring 1955. Macmillan failed to do so in January 1957 , as did Douglas - Home in October 1963 , Callaghan in April 1976 and Major in November 1990.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
True. The steps should have been done with the express will of the people.
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a good idea, it will keep a check on English refugees trying to get into Scotland. Of course England will have to pay for it.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
What on earth is Boris Johnson playing at, with the idea of a general election? Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show? Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
I'm trying to see how Labour could take advantage of this. Obviously first step is getting rid of Corbyn but should Labour position itself as a pro-EU party?
Do it, then Labour will finally have become the Inner London party.
They can slug it out with the other pro-EU party, the LibDems. Meaning UKIP coming through the middle, hoovering up the aged and the stupid...
Diane Abbott I see has been saying Brexit boosts Corbyn as it shows he is closer to working people than most of the Labour establishment, I agree, this vote has shored up his position with the only plausible alternative McDonnell
Well that would be delusional since Corbyn's brand of euroscepticism is diametrically opposed to that of many working people.
His relatively pro immigration stance of course means he will still not appeal to the wwc UKIP voters, though he retains his leftwing inner-city base but in Labour terms replacing him with a pro-European New Labour type before the next election in the present climate would clearly be suicide which is why the Corbyn/McDonnell wing now has a firm grip on the Labour Party until the next general election
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
Edinburgh was an Anglo-Saxon city, correct?
So you are advocating Partition?
Do we have any previous examples of the British state involving itself in Partition when a country departs?
"The Brits partitioned MY country too, you know!" - Sunil prior to having his Tebbit Chip successfully implanted.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
I rather suspect they got the Brits to build it for them, in true Trump style....
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
They shouldn't exclude Mr Farage. He and UKIP were a big part of getting and winning the referendum.
They can exclude Farage (not a UKIP MP) and include Carswell (a UKIP MP) and include UKIP.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
Edinburgh was an Anglo-Saxon city, correct?
And Glasgow was a welsh kingdom.
I don't know why we've let these fibs about where Scotland begins go on so long. No more!
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time. I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Takes a big person to acknowledge that. Have you come to any conclusions on why your forecasts were out? I was starting to doubt my understanding of the wwc and the views of the Mrs Duffy's of this land, in the face of the phone polls "fixes" "we learned the lessons from GE2015" and the "ABs will win this" stuff....
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a good idea, it will keep a check on English refugees trying to get into Scotland. Of course England will have to pay for it.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a good idea, it will keep a check on English refugees trying to get into Scotland. Of course England will have to pay for it.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
They shouldn't exclude Mr Farage. He and UKIP were a big part of getting and winning the referendum.
They can exclude Farage (not a UKIP MP) and include Carswell (a UKIP MP) and include UKIP.
They can. I don't think they should. The man deserves to be a part of the finish.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it weould be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was thre first to allow it.
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
We could have left if we had wanted to pre-Lisbon.
After Wales scored, my NI Outright never got locked out or changed its cash out value, allowing me to book a profit I had been hee-hawing about taking the last few days.
Is this standard practice or just a quirk with this particular bet? Do tournament odds tend not to change during individual games?
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time.
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Jack, I hope you are feeling better. Did you have any feeling that Remain might be in trouble in last few weeks?
Thank you yes but I'm getting used to a pretty secretary PBing for me.
"In trouble". Frankly not tight enough for a squeeky REMAIN bum. My mistake was not taking sufficient account for WWC BREXIT turnout. My ARSE would have finished around 52/48 on a 68% turnout. Out by 4 points all round.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
The SNP's raison d'etre is to break up the UK, which by definition isn't in the best interests of the UK...
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a paradox, with Brexit, Scottish independence becomes simultaneously more desirably, emotionally, yet less achievable, practically.
Emotionally certainly and on the English side too, Ashcroft's post-vote poll shows 79% of Leave voters saw themselves as more English than British, 60% of Remain voters saw themselves as more British than English. BREXIT was not practically easy either but emotion won out in the end! http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
Comments
now less of your lip and work a bit harder
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
Feels as if many Remain supporters are at the "bargaining" stage of grief.
How's the petition to bring back dragons going?
"We demand a second referendum because we lost"
https://www.campaignsandelections.com/campaign-insider/how-leave-beat-back-a-u-s-consultant-led-effort-to-remain-in-the-eu
EU-subsidised NI 0
(only kidding)
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
The petition signers may be helping to sign the Labour party's death warrant.
ex Leader of Lib Dem MEPs - until he was voted out.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/sir-graham-watson-writesis-there-a-way-back-from-the-brexit-decision-51089.html
The lack of respect for our democracy is very worrying.
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/senior-figures-in-remain-campaign-say-they-were-hobbled-by-number-10
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ".
It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
Do we have any previous examples of the British state involving itself in Partition when a country departs?
I am not at all sure that there would be a majority for Yes in a second indyref. Not all in Scotland who voted for Remain would vote Yes. The idea of Scotland belonging to the EU while rUK is outside it is open to being shot down as completely unworkable. In any case, most of Scotland's external trade would be with the rUK, so it's the rUK who would be their most important trading partner - never mind the single market.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
https://twitter.com/DanBilefsky/status/746396514788990976
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
- Sunil prior to having his Tebbit Chip successfully implanted.
I don't know why we've let these fibs about where Scotland begins go on so long. No more!
EU subsidy junkies 0
(only kidding!)
Have you come to any conclusions on why your forecasts were out?
I was starting to doubt my understanding of the wwc and the views of the Mrs Duffy's of this land, in the face of the phone polls "fixes" "we learned the lessons from GE2015" and the "ABs will win this" stuff....
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
when was it great the first time ?
So what ? You can sign it multiple times per person. Come to that, you dont even need to exist.
After Wales scored, my NI Outright never got locked out or changed its cash out value, allowing me to book a profit I had been hee-hawing about taking the last few days.
Is this standard practice or just a quirk with this particular bet? Do tournament odds tend not to change during individual games?
"In trouble". Frankly not tight enough for a squeeky REMAIN bum. My mistake was not taking sufficient account for WWC BREXIT turnout. My ARSE would have finished around 52/48 on a 68% turnout. Out by 4 points all round.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/