Crickey the Currant Bun giving Cameron a kicking tomorrow, right in the Junckers.
Why would he care?
I am sure he doesn't. Just they are really pouring the bucket of cold sick over him. Given how much support they have given him over the years, I wasn't expecting the both barrels "you lazy f##ker cutting and running when there is hard work to do" headline.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
@rottenborough it's not a proper brandy, more an eau de vie in which you steep walnuts for months and spiced. Wet walnuts, which you get at this time of year, are very juicy (and stain skin, as everyone who remembers children's fairytales will recall).
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
Cameron has failed to stay in Downing Street as long as John Major.
If only he had urged a LEAVE vote, he would still be PM...
Imagine if he had come back from the EU talks and said this is the deal they are offering. I don't think it is enough, but its up to you. History would be very very different.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
It is sad.
It's done it's time. We should celebrate what it was and all that it achieved, and we'll always be more than just neighbours, but England and Scotland are now on totally different trajectories. It makes no sense to stay together.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.
Having rejected their deal (which was pretty crap), I can only see them helping in that situation if a PM essentially publicly promises to sign up to everything from now on and stop causing trouble.
But no Tory PM is ever going to be able to pass an idea like ignoring the referendum, so it'd have to be a Labour PM after winning a GE, and we probably won't have one, and how would Labour win it anyway.
But in any case the chance of us nor formally leaving now are, as you say, a chance, but I think we'd agree very slight. It'd have to be a pretty effing brutal collapse for the public view to change, and no guarantee it would (it might harden views), in a short time too.
No, we'll be gone, just a question of how long we can stall to get organised before the formal negotiations.
@rottenborough it's not a proper brandy, more an eau de vie in which you steep walnuts for months and spiced. Wet walnuts, which you get at this time of year, are very juicy (and stain skin, as everyone who remembers children's fairytales will recall).
Sounds top stuff. I seem to recall vaguely having rather a lot of something similar in Dordogne made from chestnuts. But maybe it was walnuts. It is all hazy...
Crickey the Currant Bun giving Cameron a kicking tomorrow, right in the Junckers.
Why would he care?
I am sure he doesn't. Just they are really pouring the bucket of cold sick over him. Given how much support they have given him over the years, I wasn't expecting the both barrels "you lazy f##ker cutting and running when there is hard work to do" headline.
There;s no work for him to do - how would he be able to do the job, there's no way.
Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has come out for Scottish Independence on Scotland Tonight.
Makes sense. Brexit is a massive material change. As a unionist that saddens me, but I can't blame Scots for wanting to try something different.
They're going to do it this time I think. The UK is over.
Without doubt. And it's best done as quickly as possible. Brexit would become Wexit.
I just need to understand this. Wales which was as heavily Brexit as England will vote for independence because it doesn't like the English or because it doesn't like the result?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
It is sad.
It's done it's time. We should celebrate what it was and all that it achieved, and we'll always be more than just neighbours, but England and Scotland are now on totally different trajectories. It makes no sense to stay together.
This isn't new. A guy on R5 a few hours ago said (I think this is right) Scotland have voted differently to England since 197x (sure PB experts can fill in the exact date).
Crickey the Currant Bun giving Cameron a kicking tomorrow, right in the Junckers.
Why would he care?
I am sure he doesn't. Just they are really pouring the bucket of cold sick over him. Given how much support they have given him over the years, I wasn't expecting the both barrels "you lazy f##ker cutting and running when there is hard work to do" headline.
Typical Leave mentality then: those who opposed their mess still have to sort it out.
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
And all the people who fought and died against it. Recent history has seen the rebirth of many Eastern European nations. Who are you to deny the Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh or English that right?
If we could at least federalise or something.
Such an irony that Ukip heralded the death of the UK.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
Don't forget Wales!
Fair point. But I suspect the Welsh are not too keen on a non-english federated celtic bloc within the EU right now.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
Don't forget Wales!
Wales may be returning to its pre-20th century status as a region of England.
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
Leave always said don't listen to experts they are always wrong particularly about the risks of Brexit.
Crickey the Currant Bun giving Cameron a kicking tomorrow, right in the Junckers.
Why would he care?
I am sure he doesn't. Just they are really pouring the bucket of cold sick over him. Given how much support they have given him over the years, I wasn't expecting the both barrels "you lazy f##ker cutting and running when there is hard work to do" headline.
There;s no work for him to do - how would he be able to do the job, there's no way.
I am not arguing against that. I think him going was the only option. My comment was more on the hostility of the Sun given the history and also they were on the winning side. All the other papers go for the teary eyed picture or ignore Cameron going from the front page.
'I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.'
Joining EFTA would be down to EFTA agreement & not the EU.
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
Well, quite. I have a lot of time for Dan - or had until now - but that is a disgraceful position. Is he now claiming to have had nothing to do with those leaflets and the campaign?
The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is the governing body that will meet weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave ... Dan Hannan MEP ...
Crickey the Currant Bun giving Cameron a kicking tomorrow, right in the Junckers.
Why would he care?
Probably too tired to care. I gather he has gone to Chequers for one of his last trips. I'm sure Steven Crabb will enjoy taking residence there in October.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.
Having rejected their deal (which was pretty crap), I can only see them helping in that situation if a PM essentially publicly promises to sign up to everything from now on and stop causing trouble.
But no Tory PM is ever going to be able to pass an idea like ignoring the referendum, so it'd have to be a Labour PM after winning a GE, and we probably won't have one, and how would Labour win it anyway.
But in any case the chance of us nor formally leaving now are, as you say, a chance, but I think we'd agree very slight. It'd have to be a pretty effing brutal collapse for the public view to change, and no guarantee it would (it might harden views), in a short time too.
No, we'll be gone, just a question of how long we can stall to get organised before the formal negotiations.
Yep, it would need a GE. But six or 12 months down the line the EU may look a lot more enticing. The economic headwinds have not begun to blow yet. But they surely will.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
If the £ stays down here for more than a week or two, the first return on yesterday's vote that people are going to see is a very sharp rise in petrol and diesel pump prices...
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has come out for Scottish Independence on Scotland Tonight.
Makes sense. Brexit is a massive material change. As a unionist that saddens me, but I can't blame Scots for wanting to try something different.
They're going to do it this time I think. The UK is over.
Without doubt. And it's best done as quickly as possible. Brexit would become Wexit.
I just need to understand this. Wales which was as heavily Brexit as England will vote for independence because it doesn't like the English or because it doesn't like the result?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
And all the people who fought and died against it. Recent history has seen the rebirth of many Eastern European nations. Who are you to deny the Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh or English that right?
If we could at least federalise or something.
Such an irony that Ukip heralded the death of the UK.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
And all the people who fought and died against it. Recent history has seen the rebirth of many Eastern European nations. Who are you to deny the Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh or English that right?
If we could at least federalise or something.
Such an irony that Ukip heralded the death of the UK.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
Anything that keeps Boris quiet and prevents him grandstanding round the world!!
Interesting casual chain on populism. Clegg on Tuition Fees, Cameron on the EU ref then Boris on Leave. Three politicians destroyed by making populist pledges they assumed they'd never have to keep. The last two caused the destruction of the former.
I'm late to the party having had big work day today, so sorry if going over covered ground.
But, if the timing of Brexit and Scottish independence is synchronised, could Scotland pre-apply to take an option on being the successor state who will take on the continuation of British EU membership, on British terms, rather than applying to join the EU as an independent country? Serious improvement from the EU terms on offer in IndyRef#1. The EU leaders seemed to be making encouraging noises towards Scotland, suggesting they may be amenable on trade, but Scotland will be their pound of flesh from the UK.
Also, yes, I fully think the UK has been given Brexit on 90 days sale or return. Dave could have real fun with this - make Boris chancellor, you bet! Just let's not go out of our way to evade that turmoil. I couldn't see it before, didn't want it before, but why not give the people their bad trip then referendum them once more and see if they say "Again, again"
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
You can buy Milky Way in the USA
US Milky Ways aren't the same. US Milky Way Midnights, mmmmhhhh.
Yep, it would need a GE. But six or 12 months down the line the EU may look a lot more enticing. The economic headwinds have not begun to blow yet. But they surely will.
At the moment it looks like the only certain consequence is that the UK will split up.
If the EU itself is convulsed to an extent that some fundamental reforms that satisfy the English objections then it may, just may, be possible for England & Wales to end up remaining, but as a different country in an organisation with a different character.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
Don't forget Wales!
Wales may be returning to its pre-20th century status as a region of England.
Throw a nuclear device into the discussion why don't you. Blimey.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
And all the people who fought and died against it. Recent history has seen the rebirth of many Eastern European nations. Who are you to deny the Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh or English that right?
If we could at least federalise or something.
Such an irony that Ukip heralded the death of the UK.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
I think events will move at a dizzying pace from here. There will be no time for constitutional conventions.
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
That is absolutely extraordinary disingenuousness from Hannan. He knows full well exactly what the Leave campaign was promising, to precisely those voters.
Extraordinary that the predictions of resentment and anger at broken promises are already coming true, much quicker than any of us could have imagined.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
I think the Tories are already a zombie government even once they replace the lame duck Cameron. The chance of much legislation getting done is pretty slim as things stand.
But I don't think they will risk another election. There's just too much chance they could end up worse off than they currently stand.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.
Havi
Yep, it would need a GE. But six or 12 months down the line the EU may look a lot more enticing. The economic headwinds have not begun to blow yet. But they surely will.
It's possible, though I hope things do go better than the very nervous start. But I cannot see the government putting off a declaration for 12 months, not with the whole of the EU breathing down our neck to get a move on and the PM (whoever it is) treated like a leper at EU summits (I bet good money they won't get placed next to the Netherlands, any Scandinavians or Ireland at the table), so unless there's a GE in 6 months (there'll be the usual - you've changed leader so we should have an election, but Brown and Major resisted those calls with ease) it'd be too late. Doesn't matter how enticing the EU looks once the declaration is made! Barely matters now
The nervous and shocked may have started changing their minds already, but would enough in 6 months? How would that be measured to justify a change? It's a fun mental game to think about, but there's no realistic path.
Good night - let us hope the nation, what remains of it, rises to the challenge.
Interesting casual chain on populism. Clegg on Tuition Fees, Cameron on the EU ref then Boris on Leave. Three politicians destroyed by making populist pledges they assumed they'd never have to keep. The last two caused the destruction of the former.
I suppose Boris will be able to say he vetoed Turkey.
An interesting side issue is that nobody seems to have reflected on who will be Foreign Sec in a Boris/Gove/Leadsom government.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
Don't forget Wales!
Fair point. But I suspect the Welsh are not too keen on a non-english federated celtic bloc within the EU right now.
If the £ stays down here for more than a week or two, the first return on yesterday's vote that people are going to see is a very sharp rise in petrol and diesel pump prices...
Interesting casual chain on populism. Clegg on Tuition Fees, Cameron on the EU ref then Boris on Leave. Three politicians destroyed by making populist pledges they assumed they'd never have to keep. The last two caused the destruction of the former.
I suppose Boris will be able to say he vetoed Turkey.
An interesting side issue is that nobody seems to have reflected on who will be Foreign Sec in a Boris/Gove/Leadsom government.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
You can buy Milky Way in the USA
US Milky Ways aren't the same. US Milky Way Midnights, mmmmhhhh.
From my brief time in Boulder, I recall that Milky Ways in the USA are the same as Mars Bars here. Our Milky Ways approximate to Three Musketeers over there.
If the £ stays down here for more than a week or two, the first return on yesterday's vote that people are going to see is a very sharp rise in petrol and diesel pump prices...
"How was it that a modern-minded liberal Conservative leader who long ago told his party to “stop banging on about Europe” if it wanted to get back into power after three successive defeats – and who then delivered two terms in government – has himself been brought down by that same party over that same European question?"
But, if the timing of Brexit and Scottish independence is synchronised, could Scotland pre-apply to take an option on being the successor state who will take on the continuation of British EU membership, on British terms, rather than applying to join the EU as an independent country?
Yes. And as it could be done by QMV it would not be open to any country's Veto.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
I think the Tories are already a zombie government even once they replace the lame duck Cameron. The chance of much legislation getting done is pretty slim as things stand.
But I don't think they will risk another election. There's just too much chance they could end up worse off than they currently stand.
Agreed - particularly if Labour elect someone sensible. And perhaps not even then. Hope the civil servants are on their game while they're running things!
I know that a 2nd Scottish referendum has been on the cards - has the Scottish Government made moves to increase trade with Europe and break links with the English economy?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
All the political forces are aligning behind it. She just needs to get a pre-agreed deal with the EU on membership and the referendum will be a rubber-stamping exercise.
"How was it that a modern-minded liberal Conservative leader who long ago told his party to “stop banging on about Europe” if it wanted to get back into power after three successive defeats – and who then delivered two terms in government – has himself been brought down by that same party over that same European question?"
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
It is very likely polls are already in the wild. The Record is going pro-Yes and will want to know how popular that position is. The Herald might want to know as well. I can easily see two or three Scottish Referendum polls next week.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
You can buy Milky Way in the USA
US Milky Ways aren't the same. US Milky Way Midnights, mmmmhhhh.
From my brief time in Boulder, I recall that Milky Ways in the USA are the same as Mars Bars here. Our Milky Ways approximate to Three Musketeers over there.
How dare you claim a Milky Way = Three Musketeers bar....Three Musketeers bars are infinitely better :-)
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
Things have changed since then. Unionist papers are saying she needs to call one. Apparently the SNP is getting yet another surge of signups. It's over. Unless Leave doesn't happen, but that would create an even bigger mess to the south
Would Scotland be truly independent inside the EU?
Is is truly independent inside the UK?
But the SNP want independence! Will they achieve that by re-joining Brussels?
They profess to be happy with that level of dependence. We may not think it makes sense, but they and the Scots seem to regard Brussels as the last straw - better Brussells alone than London without Brussells.
At the very least there should be a constitutional convention to discuss a post-brexit reality (with the presumption Scotland would be in it, but I think we know that won't happen) - cut out the bull and say we have to sort out the HoL, do we need a new voting system, do we need to revamp the devolution set up, etc etc. You could talk for decades on the issues and we have, but Brexit is on us in 2 years plus change, and a settlement to address any other issues decisively should be attempted, f*ck it, and put it to a referendum too.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
I think the Tories are already a zombie government even once they replace the lame duck Cameron. The chance of much legislation getting done is pretty slim as things stand.
But I don't think they will risk another election. There's just too much chance they could end up worse off than they currently stand.
Agreed - particularly if Labour elect someone sensible. And perhaps not even then. Hope the civil servants are on their game while they're running things!
I think events will move at a dizzying pace from here. There will be no time for constitutional conventions.
Yes, probably true - one of the few good ideas Ed M had was to hold one right after he would have been elected. On reflection a missed opportunity.
As Remain didn't win, how their promises turn out is rather more academic than the cheaper energy, booming economy and queue-free double-staffed NHS that I am now waiting for from the leavers....
Why would Nandos, a South African restaurant chain be closing its doors in the UK? Are some morons on social media thinking that Nandos is Portuguese and then adding 2 and 2 and making 27?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
All the political forces are aligning behind it. She just needs to get a pre-agreed deal with the EU on membership and the referendum will be a rubber-stamping exercise.
Well, yes, but as well as getting some elites on board she also has to get the actual voters. Don't forget that Cameron had most of the elites on board as well.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
All the political forces are aligning behind it. She just needs to get a pre-agreed deal with the EU on membership and the referendum will be a rubber-stamping exercise.
Well, yes, but as well as getting some elites on board she also has to get the actual voters. Don't forget that Cameron had most of the elites on board as well.
Yes, but the last IndyRef was the grassroots + the SNP vs the entire Scottish and British establishment. If the next one has the rest of the Scottish establishment for Yes and the British staying out of it, there's only one way it can go. I'd bet on over 65% for Yes.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Without wishing to sound condescending I think people are being tired and emotional. Lets see how people feel next week.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
You can buy Milky Way in the USA
US Milky Ways aren't the same. US Milky Way Midnights, mmmmhhhh.
From my brief time in Boulder, I recall that Milky Ways in the USA are the same as Mars Bars here. Our Milky Ways approximate to Three Musketeers over there.
How dare you claim a Milky Way = Three Musketeers bar....Three Musketeers bars are infinitely better :-)
I did say "approximate to". You can get a few of these American "candy" bars in Tescos in Birmingham city centre (although not Three Musketeers!).
Hannan has always been absolutely clear that he wants to keep freedom of movement and access to the single market via an EEA type arrangement. It is the position that Robert Smithson and I have argued for on here as well. There is nothing new except to those who chose not to listen.
It is true that he has been consistently in favour of freedom of movement: in fact, I pointed that out frequently. But it is also true that for the past few years he has used the phrase "controlled immigration" (or variants thereof) when asked about his desired outcome. I frequently pointed out that "controlled immigration" is a term used by pro-immigration people to get the votes of anti-immigration voters, and that by failing to *also* point out that he was pro-immigration he was being disingenious. I eventually desisted because a) nobody was listening and b) since Casino_Royale has met him it was coming across as personal. But the point was made.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
I think they know the game is up. You can't keep trying to revive something that wants to die. And it will be exciting in Scotland. Very tough, too; but exciting. Why not?
Can I just ask, has Scotland just had another referendum where they voted out whilst I was not looking?
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
You may not have noticed buy an event has between then and now.
Comments
But no Tory PM is ever going to be able to pass an idea like ignoring the referendum, so it'd have to be a Labour PM after winning a GE, and we probably won't have one, and how would Labour win it anyway.
But in any case the chance of us nor formally leaving now are, as you say, a chance, but I think we'd agree very slight. It'd have to be a pretty effing brutal collapse for the public view to change, and no guarantee it would (it might harden views), in a short time too.
No, we'll be gone, just a question of how long we can stall to get organised before the formal negotiations.
Such an irony that Ukip heralded the death of the UK.
'I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.'
Joining EFTA would be down to EFTA agreement & not the EU.
There is a lot of cobblers flying around, for example, apparently milky ways (Mars) can't be sold outside of the EU and... Nandos is closing, Immediately. Seriously, they will liquidate their position now. Oh dear.
Gods, I've just realised if Scotland waits to have their referendum during the article 50 negotiation, say toward the end, we'd be looking at 2 years of Euro negations, then several years of rUk vs Scotland negotiation - and probably will have an early GE in there somewhere. We're not going to get much governance done in the next 4-5 years.
For most Unionists, the union with Scotland is more important than that with England, it's only 90 mins on the ferry between Glasgow and Belfast.
Give them a little bit of scale too.
But, if the timing of Brexit and Scottish independence is synchronised, could Scotland pre-apply to take an option on being the successor state who will take on the continuation of British EU membership, on British terms, rather than applying to join the EU as an independent country? Serious improvement from the EU terms on offer in IndyRef#1. The EU leaders seemed to be making encouraging noises towards Scotland, suggesting they may be amenable on trade, but Scotland will be their pound of flesh from the UK.
Also, yes, I fully think the UK has been given Brexit on 90 days sale or return. Dave could have real fun with this - make Boris chancellor, you bet! Just let's not go out of our way to evade that turmoil. I couldn't see it before, didn't want it before, but why not give the people their bad trip then referendum them once more and see if they say "Again, again"
If the EU itself is convulsed to an extent that some fundamental reforms that satisfy the English objections then it may, just may, be possible for England & Wales to end up remaining, but as a different country in an organisation with a different character.
But I don't think they will risk another election. There's just too much chance they could end up worse off than they currently stand.
The nervous and shocked may have started changing their minds already, but would enough in 6 months? How would that be measured to justify a change? It's a fun mental game to think about, but there's no realistic path.
Good night - let us hope the nation, what remains of it, rises to the challenge.
An interesting side issue is that nobody seems to have reflected on who will be Foreign Sec in a Boris/Gove/Leadsom government.
As we now say on this site a lot.
Make no mistake, Sturgeon will not hold one unless it is nailed on. Last polls suggested it wasn't.
"How was it that a modern-minded liberal Conservative leader who long ago told his party to “stop banging on about Europe” if it wanted to get back into power after three successive defeats – and who then delivered two terms in government – has himself been brought down by that same party over that same European question?"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/david-cameron-downfall-european-tragedy
NEW THREAD
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658563/Meet-Bregretters-Public-backed-Leave-vote-say-want-STAY-EU-one-admits-didn-t-think-vote-count.html