I've been awake pretty much non-stop since 7am Thursday... And still feeling pretty exhilarated!
Well you should relax a bit - sure you will get a second wind and be exhilarated for much longer. Have had little sleep myself until this afternoon - hope everyone is a bit kinder to each other - the decision is made and to see those eurocrats running around in a furious rage pleases me no end, and that from a remainer
I think there will be a lot of invective and blood-letting this weekend and next week... And then things will settle down.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
30% of LibDems voted Leave.
I think they are trying to actually get brand new voters, remainers from other parties, rather than shore up their own vote - I presume that is 30% of 2015 LD voters? A significant portion of those may be 'anyone but Tory' voters like here in the SW who typically would vote LD, and whose euroskepticism would not be a neat fit for the LD position.
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
Now, now, Benedict, as a likely-to-be-former LD member soon, I really don't think you should be mean to Tim.
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
Over on LDV, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a desire to have a second referendum (I've heard that before somewhere else, perhaps Scott P can enlighten me).
As a LEAVE voter (and there were quite a few of us it seems), it would be remiss of me to suggest it's perfectly possible to be an internationalist and still vote LEAVE. The problem is the EU - it hasn't always been the EU but it has become the EU. That's what I voted against and the mantra that it can be "reformed from within".
Fair doo's Stodge.., I would recommend you leave before the name change though...
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
Yes, it is better to be young in Britain today than to be dying in the Somme. For some reason, that is not a massive consolation given what has just happened.
Do you really think we won't manage to find some common ground with the EU? Do you think we won't trade, travel, and migrate within the EU in the future? Do you think that the EU is all important, or maybe that the other 90% of the world is becoming ever more accessible?
Honestly in the grand scheme of things whether we are within the EU or a slightly looser relationship with it (which seems to me a likely outcome) is not that big a deal.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
Very good. It's a shame that some young people are so frequently pessimistic about the future, there has never been a better time to be alive. In 2016 Britain's leaving the EU and that causes the young much concern (even though it is highly likely that it won't amount to a greatly different future when all is said and done), 100 years ago they would have been fighting in the Great War. Essentially everything is better today, and in ways that 100 years ago would have been almost inconceivable.
I have often made that point, extending it to the fact we are better off now than we were in the 1950s and 1970s. Many people disagree with me, including Richard (I hope I haven't misrepresented you, Richard).
As for the young: they're just being young. One of the many advantages of being a father fr the first time in my forties is that I have loads of life experiences. Situations that would have had me panicking and worrying in my twenties are more likely to wash over me.
I agree: there's never been a better time to be alive.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
You really don't like democracy do you. Not surprising really.
I've been awake pretty much non-stop since 7am Thursday... And still feeling pretty exhilarated!
Well you should relax a bit - sure you will get a second wind and be exhilarated for much longer. Have had little sleep myself until this afternoon - hope everyone is a bit kinder to each other - the decision is made and to see those eurocrats running around in a furious rage pleases me no end, and that from a remainer
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
The clue in my post is the "more likely"
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
(Snip)
Tyson, I'm not sure you;re doing yourself any favours.
Whilst there would have been racists, nihilists, reactionaries, narrow-minded bigots and oldies voting to leave (along with many other character types), its vastly unfair to tar over half the country with those brushes. I know many honest, thoughtful and decent people who voted leave. Most if not all of the leavers on here are the same.
The vision is only dark and bleak if we let it become so. Sadly you seem well down that road.
I reluctantly voted remain, but I think a happier, more prosperous country can emerge from a leave vote. But it needs work. Instead of being so negative, use your passion to make it work.
Attack racism when you see it (and don't let stupid cries of 'wacist' put you off). But please don't see it where it doesn't exist.
A genuinely thoughtful reply.
But, today I just need to vent. I have only just got over the shock of this morning. I met my wife on an Erasmus EU Scheme. My thoughts, plans and hopes for the future never considered the prospect that we would withdraw from Europe, by ourselves. My personal vision for an inclusive, optimistic, future is a bit shattered. Europe for me was much important than party politics.
Today let me be angry. Perhaps tomorrow I can consider building bridges, maybe just a little.
You do know that Jordan, Palestine and Israel are all in the Erasmus scheme. Our membership isn't under threat.
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I've been awake pretty much non-stop since 7am Thursday... And still feeling pretty exhilarated!
Well you should relax a bit - sure you will get a second wind and be exhilarated for much longer. Have had little sleep myself until this afternoon - hope everyone is a bit kinder to each other - the decision is made and to see those eurocrats running around in a furious rage pleases me no end, and that from a remainer
I think there will be a lot of invective and blood-letting this weekend and next week... And then things will settle down.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Maybe he's hiding because he's got a black eye.
He's gibbering numbers to himself, periodically trying to go find a camera to deliver an Emergency Budget and being restrained by his SpAds.
"long term... march of the makers... wobble... LOUISE!"
Yes, it is better to be young in Britain today than to be dying in the Somme. For some reason, that is not a massive consolation given what has just happened.
Do you really think we won't manage to find some common ground with the EU? Do you think we won't trade, travel, and migrate within the EU in the future? Do you think that the EU is all important, or maybe that the other 90% of the world is becoming ever more accessible?
Honestly in the grand scheme of things whether we are within the EU or a slightly looser relationship with it (which seems to me a likely outcome) is not that big a deal.
It seems funny that people will scream TRAITOR at people for voting REMAIN then.
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
People are being far too despairing on the left. This belief that what we will see is a right wing government for the few I just don't see. Any Tory who attempts free market/pro immigration will probably be the new Jeb Bush.
What's the chance of some labour leavers joining the conservatives of Boris and Gove
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
He's right. It's the closest of close shaves, there but for the grace of God go I etc. Are all the old folkways dying out? It's magnanimous in victory, gracious in defeat.
We just have to accept that the UK is littered with people who wanted to stay in the EU for all kinds of reasons and we're going to have to be pleasant with them. I admit it's a _teensy_ bit hard with some people at the moment. But we'll get through it.
Those people weren't very kind to Boris Johnson earlier in the day! The hate from the Europhilic left is horrendous.
I suugest, Mr S, that 6ou have a look at the Liberal Party. And yes, I know the difference between Libs and LD's.
I think if and when I do depart the good ship Lib Dem, I won't be rushing to jump on board another scow. I've been a member of a political party my entire adult life and perhaps it will do me good to be a free spirit.
I've come to the conclusion there's a lot to be said for thinking for yourself. I could as an example happily vote for Stephen Timms who is an excellent constituency MP but my ties to the LDs have prevented me from ever doing so.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
One or two were expecting to find a polling station at Glastonbury for them, apparently.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working either unless someone we really don't leave and that shoots the SNP's fox re having a second referendum, but it's hard to envisage a circumstance where not genuinely leaving would not cause even bigger problems.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way out, no there's nothing more to talk about, get out', did indeed formulate some miraculous offer which at least as far as much of the Leave leadership were concerned, really did reform in a legally binding way the problems they have, and they would like to halt proceedings - there'd be anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped it might not disintegrate quite so immediately, but it's not been a great start to the new era - but if you can campaign for decades to Leave the UK/EU, no problem doing the reverse, although winning over voters will be harder
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Your friend sounds a bit of a pompous ass to be honest - claiming humanity's achievements as his own. I suspect he wears an unsatisfactory moustache.
Yes, very 'me, me, me', just confirms my experience of my fellow generation. I've been lucky to work with those 'arsewipes' and their lives are much tougher, financially and so on. That was just patronising.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
On the plus side you Londoners can now fund Northern Ireland with our mandate for liberal diversity for ever.
Us Nordies are just beacons of diversity and openness
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
Unless you think preventing old people from voting at any election is a good idea, that will always be the case, life is tough and they will always have the opportunity to reverse anything that happens now (not that it would be easy or guaranteed).
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Blatant copying of the SNP's gimmicky slogans aside, which seems good political sense really, what exactly is Farron's plan? The image says 'continue to make the case for Britain's future in Europe' which is not inherently undemocratic if they can convince a majority of people to do the same is it? - that's the problem with close results, the losing side think if you ask the question again they'll win next time. But unless they use skulduggery to stop the government from moving ahead with enforcing the results of the referendum, they're free to argue we should rejoin, although I can see that being a hard sell (years of negotiations and disruption, then the probably just as arduous rejoining, on worse terms no doubt)..
Apparently Farage argued before the referendum that a very close result for remain was grounds itself for a rerun (due to unfairness of the campaign I imagine, but there have been lies on both at least), so it's not as though Leavers can argue with a straight face all Leavers would have accepted the matter settled by democratic will if the vote had been the other way.
But are the LDs arguing for us to just not declare article 50 without a second referendum to endorse that, to hold a second referendum to make sure the people meant what they voted for, what?
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
Think for market stability he is acting quietly in the background. He will be gone soon enough but in this crisis you don't want to lose your chancellor especially as there is no obvious successor before the new cabinet is installed in the Autumn
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
30% of LibDems voted Leave.
I think they are trying to actually get brand new voters, remainers from other parties, rather than shore up their own vote - I presume that is 30% of 2015 LD voters? A significant portion of those may be 'anyone but Tory' voters like here in the SW who typically would vote LD, and whose euroskepticism would not be a neat fit for the LD position.
As one of the 30%, I'd like the Party to be strong on collaboration and co-operation particularly in areas of scientific research and issues which affect the entire continent (and that includes inward migration from outside the EU) but to retain and strengthen our political distinctiveness outside the EU with stronger ties to the rest of the world.
I'd still want Britain to be a welcoming place for the best and the brightest from wherever and if they can take the skills they learn here and enrich their own countries so much the better.
The black goddess of disorder is scything. We might now consider preparing ourselves to bid goodbye to Scotland.
Perhaps. But all the issue's they had in the 2014 referendum (what currency they use, whether they get EU membership, how they pay to keep the lights on with north sea oil revenues in decline) are still serious issues to be addressed.
First chance to congratulate you, Richard. What an extraordinary 24 hours for you. To have what you've spent so long advocating actually happen. I bet you can't quite believe it. I'd be very emotional if it were me. I envy you!
Now, you know, we're relying on the likes of you and Casino to be right!!
Many thanks Southam. It has been a staggering 24 hours although I am feeling slightly out of it because of having to work today.
I am dipping my toe back into the PB water now and will hopefully get into the conversations over the weekend.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
On the plus side you Londoners can now fund Northern Ireland with our mandate for liberal diversity for ever.
Us Nordies are just beacons of diversity and openness
we share your pain
PS when does the cheque arrive ?
Yesterday was quite possibly the death knell for the concept of the UK. Reunification of Ireland may have been accelerated.
I'm not sure the cheques from Dublin would be quite as generous though.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
When I was looking at the BBC website this morning, on the results page I think, they had a twitter feed at the RHS. There was at least one tweet from Mr Osborne, saying something like he accepted the result & was working hard doing what needed to be done in order to make the decision work (my paraphrase).
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Quite obviously, opportunities to live and work in Europe
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
You do appreciate that people were living and working in Europe long before the EEC, right? Just checking. If you mean it might be slightly harder in the future (actual paperwork even), then yep, rights totally violated.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Quite obviously, opportunities to live and work in Europe
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's not been unfairly taken away from them by the selfish old people though, as per the narrative. They lost it democratically, possibly by not getting out enough of their own vote.
It seems funny that people will scream TRAITOR at people for voting REMAIN then.
Stupid people, but not every leaver is a swivel-eyed loon.
We are arguing about trade and migration rules when you get down to the essentials of this issue. It's really not quite as important as many make out, and it is in the interest or all parties to find some common ground. I have no doubt that over the months or years ahead that we will come to an arrangement that is satisfactory for both the UK as a whole and the EU.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Quite obviously, opportunities to live and work in Europe
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
You do appreciate that people were living and working in Europe long before the EEC, right? Just checking. If you mean it might be slightly harder in the future (actual paperwork even), then yep, rights totally violated.
I don't think the world in pre-1973 is a valid basis for comparison. There's no guarantee free movement will survive the negotiation with the EU. Yes, people will be able to get visas for jobs etc but that's a lot not arduous than just being able to move.
When people were referring to the last minute shift to status quo part of me thought they may not have it quite right. The status quo meme was in fact tapped into by Leave: the idea of 'getting our country back' and 'taking back control.' They were powerful messages, yes about revolution but also about returning rights to the people. When status quo becomes code for out of touch metropolitan elitists it's time the people tear it down and rebuild. Revolution can paradoxically be because people want to return to something they believe they've lost.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Quite obviously, opportunities to live and work in Europe
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's not been unfairly taken away from them by the selfish old people though, as per the narrative. They lost it democratically, possibly by not getting out enough of their own vote.
Quite. It's as silly as complaints that people didn't vote Tory so it's unfair they have to live under a Tory government, and at least that has the chance people could have a problem with the voting system giving majorities on less than 50% of the vote (even if most of those complaining would not be so idealistic if a government to their liking was elected on the same).
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
On the plus side you Londoners can now fund Northern Ireland with our mandate for liberal diversity for ever.
Us Nordies are just beacons of diversity and openness
we share your pain
PS when does the cheque arrive ?
Yesterday was quite possibly the death knell for the concept of the UK. Reunification of Ireland may have been accelerated.
I'm not sure the cheques from Dublin would be quite as generous though.
My daughter works in the Republic and today theyre shit scared they may be asked to fund unification as the dont want it
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
When I was looking at the BBC website this morning, on the results page I think, they had a twitter feed at the RHS. There was at least one tweet from Mr Osborne, saying something like he accepted the result & was working hard doing what needed to be done in order to make the decision work (my paraphrase).
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
Most people expected him to be moved or sacked regardless of the outcome, so he's probably preparing for a handover.
Even though he'd not get close to the final two, I'd almost like to see if he has the balls to stand as Cameron's successor.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
When I was looking at the BBC website this morning, on the results page I think, they had a twitter feed at the RHS. There was at least one tweet from Mr Osborne, saying something like he accepted the result & was working hard doing what needed to be done in order to make the decision work (my paraphrase).
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
I think that's bollocks. It would destabilise just when stability is required..
I have been thinking about the mess we are in and why the vote was lost. To me it stems back to Brown signing in 2009 ?? without a vote of the British people.. I have always loathed Brown, it just reminded me how much I really loathe the man.
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
30% of LibDems voted Leave.
Well they have a nice new big pool of people to fish in that don't fancy either Boris or Corbyn. And yes, the only way is indeed UP !
Alot of the "leave" voters won't bother at a General Election to show up (The reason for the opinion polls being off were non GE voters coming out, and almost entirely for 'leave')
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
When I was looking at the BBC website this morning, on the results page I think, they had a twitter feed at the RHS. There was at least one tweet from Mr Osborne, saying something like he accepted the result & was working hard doing what needed to be done in order to make the decision work (my paraphrase).
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
I think that's bollocks. It would destabilise just when stability is required..
I have been thinking about the mess we are in and why the vote was lost. To me it stems back to Brown signing in 2009 ?? without a vote of the British people.. I have always loathed Brown, it just reminded me how much I really loathe the man.
A vote 5-10 years ago would probably have been much more winnable - you'd also be able to have it be on a specific issue, eg constitution, and the opponents would treat it as a referendum on membership, so if they lost you could say the matter is settled, and if you lost, well, it was just on a single issue.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I know I tease you for being an immortal vampire who played in the Valley of the Kings in 500BC before settling in the Thames when Claudius arrived, but sometimes, you really make it difficult not to...
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Your friend sounds a bit of a pompous ass to be honest - claiming humanity's achievements as his own. I suspect he wears an unsatisfactory moustache.
Yes, very 'me, me, me', just confirms my experience of my fellow generation. I've been lucky to work with those 'arsewipes' and their lives are much tougher, financially and so on. That was just patronising.
And I was telling the Kipper troops at the count to hold steady, chin up, I had hopes. After Sunderland I was telling them game on and after Nuneaton I told them it was in the bag. All done. Farage was just being emotional. I bottled that up till I got home.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Quite obviously, opportunities to live and work in Europe
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
You do appreciate that people were living and working in Europe long before the EEC, right? Just checking. If you mean it might be slightly harder in the future (actual paperwork even), then yep, rights totally violated.
I don't think the world in pre-1973 is a valid basis for comparison. There's no guarantee free movement will survive the negotiation with the EU.
I don't think free movement as it currently stands, no. However, Brits are in high demand on the continent. That's not going to go away.
Rereading my reply, I apologise for taking a pop at you. I'm sure you're worried about your children's futures. In my view, if a young person has the requisite skills, then the world will still be their oyster.
If it turns out that 'OUT means OUT' includes an actual prohibition on Brits living and working in Europe, I'll join you in stringing Johnson et al up from the nearest lamp post. Then I'll apologize handsomely and you may punch me on the nose. That might be cold comfort but it's all I have.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
It must be the nature of different boozers. In my local tonight the conversation has been very supportive of Leave.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Well we'd view it we subsidise you, but there you go
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
Do you think my 20 year old son is going to die soon? What of the many young activists who helped at the count last night?
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I thought of what I thought was a funny answer. Laughed. Then deleted it before posting on the grounds of taste.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
Seriously where is he?
When I was looking at the BBC website this morning, on the results page I think, they had a twitter feed at the RHS. There was at least one tweet from Mr Osborne, saying something like he accepted the result & was working hard doing what needed to be done in order to make the decision work (my paraphrase).
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
I think that's bollocks. It would destabilise just when stability is required..
I have been thinking about the mess we are in and why the vote was lost. To me it stems back to Brown signing in 2009 ?? without a vote of the British people.. I have always loathed Brown, it just reminded me how much I really loathe the man.
Yes the Lisbon Treaty nee the EU constitution. It would have been a far softer landing indeed, but since that referendum wasn't allowed we are fortunate to have been able to bail out at this point, before the cost/damage grew any higher.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I know I tease you for being an immortal vampire who played in the Valley of the Kings in 500BC before settling in the Thames when Claudius arrived, but sometimes, you really make it difficult not to...
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
That works all the way up to the last phrase...unfortunately unlimited liability is part of the package...
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Think the "London" question is one that needs to be answered. Sadiq is kind of on the case and Boris as a former mayor should be very sympathetic.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Fat use if they don't want Tories. Incidentally, the commission is elected by the European Parliament.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
It's very easy to discount the value of democracy. We take it for granted.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
I was a remainer (albeit reluctant), and I don't think I fit in that category. I've accepted the result, as I think have many others throughout the day.
Besides, be honest: if the situation was reversed then there would be many leavers throwing similar strops. In many cases they were having preemptive ones before the vote!
Not to the point Tyson has now reached. It is become frenetic.
I have always said that I wanted the vote decisive either way. I said consistently that if the democratic will of the people of this great country vote remain then we go for it 100% . I even said we have to join the euro. This despite wishing to leave. I respect the democratic mandate.
I just get utterly totally fed up with XPat oiks like Tyson who wouldn't understand democracy if it hit him flat in the face. People like Tyson are the ones that needlessly set out to "rub our noses in diversity" well Tyson just got his nose "rubbed in democracy" today and his squealing is indeed "very tiresome"
He should take a cold compress and a lie down in a darkened room.
BTW isn't the easiest solution to the EU immigration question to have free movement provided that the the country in question has GDP per capita that is, at a minimum, 90% [or whatever] of ours?
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
80% of our emigrants live in six EU countries. Spain, Ireland, France, Germany, Netherlands and Italy. It's not beyond the wit of man to sort this kind of issue out. It's not rocket science.
R Tyndall (post won't quote) - Read it from an outsider perspective, they are the bigot. So patronising and, I'm afraid, typical of the blinkered selfish attitude of my generation. It really is arrogant. Maybe they were trying to be funny but they missed the target..
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
Oh please, a few Tarquins finding it marginally harder to work in other European countries is not some appalling deprivation of human rights.
Does anyone else feel a bit odd, that we essentially don't have a functioning government right now (until the end of the Tory leadership contest)? I can't explain why, but it feels unsettling.
private act of parliament is the logical route (the problem is that there is one company established by Parliament that requires a minimum number of family trustees who are also directors of another company - so he can't step down as a trustee because that would put the family in breach of the law)
We are exploring whether we can just get the privy council to decide without bothering parliament
Does anyone else feel a bit odd, that we essentially don't have a functioning government right now (until the end of the Tory leadership contest)? I can't explain why, but it feels unsettling.
It is unsettling, although apparently it's getting pretty common in Europe thesedays!
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
BTW isn't the easiest solution to the EU immigration question to have free movement provided that the the country in question has GDP per capita that is, at a minimum, 90% [or whatever] of ours?
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
Um, why? If the reason is to ensure a certain income level and less state dependency, it doesn't.
Surely the best way is a market-based solution based on limiting benefits as a first step.
BTW isn't the easiest solution to the EU immigration question to have free movement provided that the the country in question has GDP per capita that is, at a minimum, 90% [or whatever] of ours?
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
The GDP idea works for me. It would be even better if our welfare system was contributory.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
On the plus side you Londoners can now fund Northern Ireland with our mandate for liberal diversity for ever.
Us Nordies are just beacons of diversity and openness
we share your pain
PS when does the cheque arrive ?
Yesterday was quite possibly the death knell for the concept of the UK. Reunification of Ireland may have been accelerated.
I'm not sure the cheques from Dublin would be quite as generous though.
My daughter works in the Republic and today theyre shit scared they may be asked to fund unification as the dont want it Belfast and London a match made in brussels
Close relations in the Republic have long thought that. No desire to take on additional social burdens.
Comments
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
We want leadership speculation!
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
Honestly in the grand scheme of things whether we are within the EU or a slightly looser relationship with it (which seems to me a likely outcome) is not that big a deal.
As for the young: they're just being young. One of the many advantages of being a father fr the first time in my forties is that I have loads of life experiences. Situations that would have had me panicking and worrying in my twenties are more likely to wash over me.
I agree: there's never been a better time to be alive.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-chart-shows-how-many-people-have-died-from-conflic-1713625114
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
"long term... march of the makers... wobble... LOUISE!"
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
Hezza, Clarke, Major... You are history. Literally.
I've come to the conclusion there's a lot to be said for thinking for yourself. I could as an example happily vote for Stephen Timms who is an excellent constituency MP but my ties to the LDs have prevented me from ever doing so.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way out, no there's nothing more to talk about, get out', did indeed formulate some miraculous offer which at least as far as much of the Leave leadership were concerned, really did reform in a legally binding way the problems they have, and they would like to halt proceedings - there'd be anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped it might not disintegrate quite so immediately, but it's not been a great start to the new era - but if you can campaign for decades to Leave the UK/EU, no problem doing the reverse, although winning over voters will be harder
We might now consider preparing ourselves to bid goodbye to Scotland.
Us Nordies are just beacons of diversity and openness
we share your pain
PS when does the cheque arrive ?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/senior-figures-in-remain-campaign-say-they-were-hobbled-by-number-10
And unbelievably Downing Street thought the Scottish IndyRef was the campaign model to use. A 28% lead down to 10%. MORONS.
I'd still want Britain to be a welcoming place for the best and the brightest from wherever and if they can take the skills they learn here and enrich their own countries so much the better.
If they can address them then good luck to them.
I am dipping my toe back into the PB water now and will hopefully get into the conversations over the weekend.
I'm not sure the cheques from Dublin would be quite as generous though.
There was some reporter's tweet there too saying it was expected Mr Osborne would be replaced in a few days.
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
We are arguing about trade and migration rules when you get down to the essentials of this issue. It's really not quite as important as many make out, and it is in the interest or all parties to find some common ground. I have no doubt that over the months or years ahead that we will come to an arrangement that is satisfactory for both the UK as a whole and the EU.
When people were referring to the last minute shift to status quo part of me thought they may not have it quite right. The status quo meme was in fact tapped into by Leave: the idea of 'getting our country back' and 'taking back control.' They were powerful messages, yes about revolution but also about returning rights to the people. When status quo becomes code for out of touch metropolitan elitists it's time the people tear it down and rebuild. Revolution can paradoxically be because people want to return to something they believe they've lost.
Belfast and London a match made in brussels
Even though he'd not get close to the final two, I'd almost like to see if he has the balls to stand as Cameron's successor.
I have been thinking about the mess we are in and why the vote was lost. To me it stems back to Brown signing in 2009 ?? without a vote of the British people.. I have always loathed Brown, it just reminded me how much I really loathe the man.
Alot of the "leave" voters won't bother at a General Election to show up (The reason for the opinion polls being off were non GE voters coming out, and almost entirely for 'leave')
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
Edinburgh and East Renfreshwire hold the key to the future of Scottish Independence.
Edinburgh voted 61.6% No, 74.4% Remain
East Renfrewshire voted 63.2% No, 74.3% Remain.
Who converts and by how much is the heart of the matter
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Rereading my reply, I apologise for taking a pop at you. I'm sure you're worried about your children's futures. In my view, if a young person has the requisite skills, then the world will still be their oyster.
If it turns out that 'OUT means OUT' includes an actual prohibition on Brits living and working in Europe, I'll join you in stringing Johnson et al up from the nearest lamp post. Then I'll apologize handsomely and you may punch me on the nose. That might be cold comfort but it's all I have.
In my local tonight the conversation has been very supportive of Leave.
Check turnout to "yes" ^_^
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
(edited to add: goodnight, all)
I have always said that I wanted the vote decisive either way. I said consistently that if the democratic will of the people of this great country vote remain then we go for it 100% . I even said we have to join the euro. This despite wishing to leave. I respect the democratic mandate.
I just get utterly totally fed up with XPat oiks like Tyson who wouldn't understand democracy if it hit him flat in the face. People like Tyson are the ones that needlessly set out to "rub our noses in diversity" well Tyson just got his nose "rubbed in democracy" today and his squealing is indeed "very tiresome"
He should take a cold compress and a lie down in a darkened room.
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
Or to get someone to smuggle a suitable clause into a bill that's already going through, like this guy did:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1969-02-20a.894.2
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I remember why I have been avoiding this site now
We are exploring whether we can just get the privy council to decide without bothering parliament
Surely the best way is a market-based solution based on limiting benefits as a first step.
Hmm. Now I'm intrigued.