Does anyone else feel a bit odd, that we essentially don't have a functioning government right now (until the end of the Tory leadership contest)? I can't explain why, but it feels unsettling.
I'm just enjoying the opportunity to understand what it is to be Belgian. Curiously liberating. It's not like the Tories had much planned for this parliament.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
It must be the nature of different boozers. In my local tonight the conversation has been very supportive of Leave.
Well this is in the Thames Valley, which will bear much of the brunt of the Brexit devastation, but the point still stands: it'll be nice to observe the Leavers, they that had all the solutions, accountable for their actions.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
So in fact if London is to split away you'd need to redraw the boundary, to exclude the bits that are not 'real' London. Sounds like a lot of work, and what if some parts start to think differently again, and need to be cast out, and then again, and again. Frankly it seems an administrative nightmare.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
Quite. Unfathomably genius. If it works, it may shoot some foxes too.
BTW isn't the easiest solution to the EU immigration question to have free movement provided that the the country in question has GDP per capita that is, at a minimum, 90% [or whatever] of ours?
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
Um, why? If the reason is to ensure a certain income level and less state dependency, it doesn't.
Surely the best way is a market-based solution based on limiting benefits as a first step.
The idea is to limited freedom of movement without it looking like you are limiting freedom of movement. Fudging the issue - this was in the context of associate membership
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working either unless someone we really don't leave and that shoots the SNP's fox re having a second referendum, but it's hard to envisage a circumstance where not genuinely leaving would not cause even bigger problems.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way out, no there's nothing more to talk about, get out', did indeed formulate some miraculous offer which at least as far as much of the Leave leadership were concerned, really did reform in a legally binding way the problems they have, and they would like to halt proceedings - there'd be anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped it might not disintegrate quite so immediately, but it's not been a great start to the new era - but if you can campaign for decades to Leave the UK/EU, no problem doing the reverse, although winning over voters will be harder
I agree, I expect Scotland to vote for independence within the next 2 years just before the rUK leaves the E
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
30% of LibDems voted Leave.
I think they are trying to actually get brand new voters, remainers from other parties, rather than shore up their own vote - I presume that is 30% of 2015 LD voters? A significant portion of those may be 'anyone but Tory' voters like here in the SW who typically would vote LD, and whose euroskepticism would not be a neat fit for the LD position.
As one of the 30%, I'd like the Party to be strong on collaboration and co-operation particularly in areas of scientific research and issues which affect the entire continent (and that includes inward migration from outside the EU) but to retain and strengthen our political distinctiveness outside the EU with stronger ties to the rest of the world.
I'd still want Britain to be a welcoming place for the best and the brightest from wherever and if they can take the skills they learn here and enrich their own countries so much the better.
Interesting but we've just voted to leave a concrete legal framework for doing all that because lots of people want to less of that. You helped them. We'll see.
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I know I tease you for being an immortal vampire who played in the Valley of the Kings in 500BC before settling in the Thames when Claudius arrived, but sometimes, you really make it difficult not to...
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
That works all the way up to the last phrase...unfortunately unlimited liability is part of the package...
Can you convert to a limited liability partnership, or whatever that newfangled thing is called.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
An independent London would fail, all the domestic companies with headquarters would leave for the new English capital, the banks would have to downsize and leave for somewhere else as the new independent London government wouldn't be able stand behind 30x it's economy's worth of liabilities and investors would begin to look at the new capital, say Bristol, as the new home of investment.
You're in danger of becoming too wrapped up in your own bullshit. I'll tell you one Londoner to another, it's becoming tiresome. We've left. End of. Let's try and work out a solution where everyone wins, and there are surely ways to make that happen.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working either unless someone we really don't leave and that shoots the SNP's fox re having a second referendum, but it's hard to envisage a circumstance where not genuinely leaving would not cause even bigger problems.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way out, no there's nothing more to talk about, get out', did indeed formulate some miraculous offer which at least as far as much of the Leave leadership were concerned, really did reform in a legally binding way the problems they have, and they would like to halt proceedings - there'd be anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped it might not disintegrate quite so immediately, but it's not been a great start to the new era - but if you can campaign for decades to Leave the UK/EU, no problem doing the reverse, although winning over voters will be harder
I agree, I expect Scotland to vote for independence within the next 2 years just before the rUK leaves the E
Scotlands economy is fkd
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
If by this time next year we have Presidents Trump and Le Pen as well as BREXIT, there will certainly be growing movements campaigning for an independent New York City, Paris and London
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
You're in danger of becoming too wrapped up in your own bullshit. I'll tell you one Londoner to another, it's becoming tiresome. We've left. End of. Let's try and work out a solution where everyone wins, and there are surely ways to make that happen.
Or even fight hard to see that Leave doesn't happen if you want, still a free country.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Mid Sussex also voted to remain. Should Mid-Sussex declare itself a separate country too? Furthermore, in bits of Mid-Sussex the majority voted to leave so do those bits get to succeed and form their own states?
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
Oh please, a few Tarquins finding it marginally harder to work in other European countries is not some appalling deprivation of human rights.
I remember why I have been avoiding this site now
So now trying to work abroad is itself TARQUIN REMAIN TRAITOR behaviour to the Decent People who can't even recognise their own country.
And again, Caroline Flint on Newsnight claiming that Corbyn should quit because "we were expecting 80% of Labour voters to vote Remain".
Does this not suggest that the problem was with your reading of the mood of Labour voters, rather than with Corbyn?
Apparently they think either Corbyn is indeed as transformative and convincing a figure as his fans think, or that their voters are sheep who would have voted for Remain en masse if Corbyn had been a bit keener on things,
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I know I tease you for being an immortal vampire who played in the Valley of the Kings in 500BC before settling in the Thames when Claudius arrived, but sometimes, you really make it difficult not to...
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
That works all the way up to the last phrase...unfortunately unlimited liability is part of the package...
Can you convert to a limited liability partnership, or whatever that newfangled thing is called.
Nah - would love to, but the press would write rude things about us.
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Go for it Mr Meeks. Set up a campaign to make London a city state. If you can persuade your fellow Londoners that this is in fact better for them, good luck to you. I am a little skeptical that many of them will agree with you, beyond a certain venting period.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Mid Sussex also voted to remain. Should Mid-Sussex declare itself a separate country too? Furthermore, in bits of Mid-Sussex the majority voted to leave so do those bits get to succeed and form their own states?
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
You're in danger of becoming too wrapped up in your own bullshit. I'll tell you one Londoner to another, it's becoming tiresome. We've left. End of. Let's try and work out a solution where everyone wins, and there are surely ways to make that happen.
Or even fight hard to see that Leave doesn't happen if you want, still a free country.
Absolutely, the Lib Dems are going to campaign to void the election result. Go and campaign with them. This fanciful idea that London, a great city no doubt, could leave the UK and maintain all that makes it the global city that it is, is a complete non starter. Our EU membership wasn't what made London the city it is today, it may have contributed, to what extent we won't know but it's up to us to continue that and ensure London is still top dog. I have no doubt that we will maintain our position in or out.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
So in fact if London is to split away you'd need to redraw the boundary, to exclude the bits that are not 'real' London. Sounds like a lot of work, and what if some parts start to think differently again, and need to be cast out, and then again, and again. Frankly it seems an administrative nightmare.
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I wouldn't imagine all that many Leave voters have too many decades in front of them.
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
So in fact if London is to split away you'd need to redraw the boundary, to exclude the bits that are not 'real' London. Sounds like a lot of work, and what if some parts start to think differently again, and need to be cast out, and then again, and again. Frankly it seems an administrative nightmare.
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
which towns that ? Berlin? Munich ?
Basingstoke and Reading.
So not civilisation ? :-)
When it's all a post-Brexit wasteland probably not.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Go for it Mr Meeks. Set up a campaign to make London a city state. If you can persuade your fellow Londoners that this is in fact better for them, good luck to you. I am a little skeptical that many of them will agree with you, beyond a certain venting period.
Oh, yes. And where do you stop? Do you exclude Tower Hamlets, Newham and Hackney because they need subsidizing and see things too differently from you?
The interesting thing to watch is what happens to the groups who didn't think there would be any problems or pain from the decision and those who did but thought they could accept it. The former were bound to face reality at some point and how will they react? The latter, if things go badly, will be interesting to see who recants their judgement and who stubbornly insists its not their fault if things end up going harder than they realised.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
I thought BME immigration was meant to go up after LEAVE according to LEAVE messaging? Now immigration needs to be reduced in a year, so non-EU will inevitably be the reduction?
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Honestly I think it's time you took a step back. London stops being London the minute it isn't the financial, political and media capital of a country with 67m people. Enough of this, I know you were/are a federalist, but the nation has voted.
Anyway, my head is pounding as if the French government have inserted the bells of Notre Dame in it as retribution for Brexit (although I'm not sure quite why they'd choose me). So I'm going to relurk for a while. I'l still pop in to read occasionally, and I'll probably contribute whenever the following topics crop up:
*) The awesomeness and brilliance of HS2. *) Trains. *) Rockets *) Space *) Ships *) Bridges and/or tunnels *) The extreme eviltude of Apple. *) Software *) Any engineering.
In fact, almost everything aside from politics and betting. Oh, and cats. I can't talk much about cats.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
which towns that ? Berlin? Munich ?
Basingstoke and Reading.
So not civilisation ? :-)
When it's all a post-Brexit wasteland probably not.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
Oh please, a few Tarquins finding it marginally harder to work in other European countries is not some appalling deprivation of human rights.
I remember why I have been avoiding this site now
So now trying to work abroad is itself TARQUIN REMAIN TRAITOR behaviour to the Decent People who can't even recognise their own country.
Funny how the people now bitching have been looking at the rest of society and their issues with disgust and saying "not my problem".
You know what, your issues are not my problem either.
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
You're in danger of becoming too wrapped up in your own bullshit. I'll tell you one Londoner to another, it's becoming tiresome. We've left. End of. Let's try and work out a solution where everyone wins, and there are surely ways to make that happen.
Or even fight hard to see that Leave doesn't happen if you want, still a free country.
Absolutely, the Lib Dems are going to campaign to void the election result.
Oh, so that is the plan? - I was unclear if they were hoping to stop the article 50 declaration from happening outright, with or without a referendum, or just after a rereun, or to rejoin after we leave.
Well, if we did vote a second time and Remained this time, it would be mildly hilarious (not sure how it's justifiable to vote again, sorry petition but the rules were clear), because the best of three joke from earlier really would seem viable, because if you voted again to confirm the first one, why not a third to make sure the second was clear, particularly if it was close.
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working either unless someone we really don't leave and that shoots the SNP's fox re having a second referendum, but it's hard to envisage a circumstance where not genuinely leaving would not cause even bigger problems.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way outharder
I agree, I expect Scotland to vote for independence within the next 2 years just before the rUK leaves the E
Scotlands economy is fkd
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
Well judging by today's evidence our economy is not that much better in the short term at least
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I wouldn't imagine all that many Leave voters have too many decades in front of them.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
BTW isn't the easiest solution to the EU immigration question to have free movement provided that the the country in question has GDP per capita that is, at a minimum, 90% [or whatever] of ours?
I was intrigued, as well, that the French and the Germany, are only presenting their paper to the Founding 6 members (FR DE IT BE NL LUX). That says to me they intend to screw over the eastern europeans
See, I'm a bit sceptical about this narrative of the poor youngsters having their futures taken away from them by those nasty selfish mean old folks.
It's been said the areas with higher proportions of younger voters had smaller turnout. Is it possible that the youngsters just didn't bother to turn up in sufficient numbers to make their high Remain percentage count? I've not seen any specific figures.
It's still not clear to me what the issue is.
I can imagine being worried if I were a City trader. But for the average 18-24 year old on the Clapham Uber, what's significantly changed between yesterday and today?
I don't know, but they do seem to be making rather a noise about it. Perhaps they are used to having things their own way, and just haven't quite grasped the concept of democracy.
They have grown up in a world where they could live and work in any part of the EU they wanted. Now that's been taken away from them.
It's really tough. And in exchange, all you can offer them is the regular chance to replace a government that isn't performing as opposed to having to accept whatever the unelected bureaucrats of their time deem good.
Thats a pretty rubbish exchange: giving up the right to live in 27 countries and in exchange your voice can be ignored in a FPTP voting system.
Oh please, a few Tarquins finding it marginally harder to work in other European countries is not some appalling deprivation of human rights.
I remember why I have been avoiding this site now
Appalling, no, but a needless sacrifice. And it's not just Tarquins who'd like to live abroad FFS.
The interesting thing to watch is what happens to the groups who didn't think there would be any problems or pain from the decision and those who did but thought they could accept it. The former were bound to face reality at some point and how will they react? The latter, if things go badly, will be interesting to see who recants their judgement and who stubbornly insists its not their fault if things end up going harder than they realised.
This is what I said before the referendum but got odd looks for it. Some Prime Minister needs to push the button labelled ARTICLE 50, but already the mood is, let's be honest, bloody grim out there among many self-proclaimed LEAVE voters, and a government seeking public support and no blunders may just keep putting it off.
Does anyone else feel a bit odd, that we essentially don't have a functioning government right now (until the end of the Tory leadership contest)? I can't explain why, but it feels unsettling.
It's because there is not one around to direct the pointless costly fiddling. Be unsettled but it need not be bad.
My Dad wants to step down from the board of one of the family companies...this morning our lawyer realised we'd need an Act of Parliament to let him do so...
Does anyone know a way around this problem as I suspect they are a little distracted right now to worry about little things like that...
I know I tease you for being an immortal vampire who played in the Valley of the Kings in 500BC before settling in the Thames when Claudius arrived, but sometimes, you really make it difficult not to...
As for your Dad's problem (I know, when they hit 5000 years old they get grouchy), you need to find a way for him to stand down without actually standing down. Make him a non-executive director emeritus with no salary nor responsibilities nor requrement to attend meetings, and make sure his liability is set to zero
That works all the way up to the last phrase...unfortunately unlimited liability is part of the package...
Can you convert to a limited liability partnership, or whatever that newfangled thing is called.
Nah - would love to, but the press would write rude things about us.
I sthat code for lots of your customers would bugger off? After all if the business has limited liability it becomes no different from any other bank and that big chunk of trust disappears.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
Quite. Unfathomably genius. If it works, it may shoot some foxes too.
Francois Hollande's statement posted on his Facebook page says that 'the procedures envisaged in the treaties will be rapidly applied. This is the rule and the consequence [of the referendum]'.
I'd estimate that the majority of the comments below from French people are saying that we are right to leave the EU and that France should do the same.
Delaying Article 50 until a new PM is in place really does put the EU leaders under immense pressure.
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I wouldn't imagine all that many Leave voters have too many decades in front of them.
As a percentage of Leave young people are a smaller group, but it's still millions of younger people isn't it? It's like how millions of poor people do vote for the Tories, just that poor seats rarely do so in enough numbers to win.
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Honestly I think it's time you took a step back. London stops being London the minute it isn't the financial, political and media capital of a country with 67m people. Enough of this, I know you were/are a federalist, but the nation has voted.
I'm not a federalist, never have been never will be. I have, however, had to listen to wild-eyed loons bore off about the evils of the EU for my entire adult life. I have done that with the appropriate level of tolerance. You can put up with a post or two from a different perspective, even if it doesn't directly relate to your preferred monomania.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
Quite. Unfathomably genius. If it works, it may shoot some foxes too.
Delaying Article 50 until a new PM is in place really does put the EU leaders under immense pressure.
Is there any way for them to force our declaration? There was that tweet earlier today about them interpreting the vote itself as the declaration, but that makes no sense at all given our referendums are non binding.
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
48% voted to Remain within the EU, we will now have 2 Leave led parties, UKIP and the Tories and one Leave sympathising-led party, Corbyn-led Labour. That leaves the LDs as the only out and out UK Remain party beyond the Greens
The problem with an independent London is the bits that Mr Meeks deems not "real London"
I mean the upset and fallout over the phone code change was bad enough without a Meekerman turning up in the neighbourhood and drawing chalk lines down the centre of suburban thoroughfares...
Scotlands economy is fkd. It's like NI - they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
45% voted to leave in 2014, and that was before Brexit.
so what
Ive been listening for most of my adult life that NI is off
and then people do the numbers and decide theyd rather be subsidised by Alistair Meeks
I've been listening for most of my adult life that UK is off from the EU. And now it is. People don't necessarily prioritise the numbers over the viscera, as yesterday proved.
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I wouldn't imagine all that many Leave voters have too many decades in front of them.
I'm 8 years younger than Mr Tyndall
Obviously you two are the exceptions proving the rule!
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working either unless someone we really don't leave and that shoots the SNP's fox re having a second referendum, but it's hard to envisage a circumstance where not genuinely leaving would not cause even bigger problems.
I mean, imagine if the EU, contrary to current statements which is 'Goodbye, best wishes and don't let the door hit you on the way out, no there's nothing more to talk about, get out', did indeed formulate some miraculous offer which at least as far as much of the Leave leadership were concerned, really did reform in a legally binding way the problems they have, and they would like to halt proceedings - there'd be anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped it might not disintegrate quite so immediately, but it's not been a great start to the new era - but if you can campaign for decades to Leave the UK/EU, no problem doing the reverse, although winning over voters will be harder
I agree, I expect Scotland to vote for independence within the next 2 years just before the rUK leaves the E
Scotlands economy is fkd
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
At the moment I think the Sindy2 threat is just to get some leverage whilst they consider their options. As I recall, Denmark originally had some unusual arrangement where it was an EU member, but the Faroes and Greenland (both originally part of Denmark, although the latter is now independent) were not part of the EU. As an aside, Greenland then joined the EU, then left Denmark and the EU, providing the only semi-precedent for what we are about to go through.
I reckon the Scots will be keen to explore whether the reverse can be done - they stay in the EU whilst the rest of the U.K. leaves. Whether this is remotely feasible I have no idea, but even if not, I suggest the rUK needs to respond to the issue thoughtfully if it does not want to give the Scots the ammunition they need to push the swing 10% of their population over to the independence side.
Blatant copying of the SNP's gimmicky slogans aside, which seems good political sense really, what exactly is Farron's plan? The image says 'continue to make the case for Britain's future in Europe' which is not inherently undemocratic if they can convince a majority of people to do the same is it? - that's the problem with close results, the losing side think if you ask the question again they'll win next time. But unless they use skulduggery to stop the government from moving ahead with enforcing the results of the referendum, they're free to argue we should rejoin, although I can see that being a hard sell (years of negotiations and disruption, then the probably just as arduous rejoining, on worse terms no doubt)..
But are the LDs arguing for us to just not declare article 50 without a second referendum to endorse that, to hold a second referendum to make sure the people meant what they voted for, what?
One or two people are getting a little bit ahead of themselves, I think. The referendum was yesterday, the result was only this morning, and an unexpected one at that - and already some posters here are expecting the Lib Dems to have a policy cut and dried for dealing with the new situation.
I think that what Tim Farron is saying is that we in the UK should not turn our backs on Europe (a la Farage). The implication is that we need to explore what the new relationship ought to be - and that is not necessarily with the EU as constituted at present. If the EU does break up, as was discussed on here earlier today, that could be the basis for forming a new kind of relationship more acceptable to the British people.
Mr Charles recently posted an item in which he distinguished between the EU and a more relaxed form of association, and one which did not give priority to the interests of large corporations. This received many favourable comments on this site, including from myself.
So when Tim Farron is calling for people with a more international approach to come and join the Liberal Democrats, it could be the "Charles model" that emerges, not the existing EU model.
With the Conservative and Labour Parties unhappily divided on this question (as on many others) it would surely be sensible for Conservative posters to refrain from charging in where angels fear to tread. Wait and see, Mr White, and others. You might like what finally emerges.
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
I cannot really see it but as you say may be the only chance to keep Scotland in the UK but not a big one at that!
Well I cannot see it working eithere anarchy.
So the Union is pretty stuffed - I'd hoped itendence within the next 2 years just before the rUK leaves the E
Scotlands economy is fkd
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
At the moment I think the Sindy2 threat is just to get some leverage whilst they consider their options. As I recall, Denmark originally had some unusual arrangement where it was an EU member, but the Faroes and Greenland (both originally part of Denmark, although the latter is now independent) were not part of the EU. As an aside, Greenland then joined the EU, then left Denmark and the EU, providing the only semi-precedent for what we are about to go through.
I reckon the Scots will be keen to explore whether the reverse can be done - they stay in the EU whilst the rest of the U.K. leaves. Whether this is remotely feasible I have no idea, but even if not, I suggest the rUK needs to respond to the issue thoughtfully if it does not want to give the Scots the ammunition they need to push the swing 10% of their population over to the independence side.
If the EU is disntegrating why would the Scots board a sinking ship ?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Mid Sussex also voted to remain. Should Mid-Sussex declare itself a separate country too? Furthermore, in bits of Mid-Sussex the majority voted to leave so do those bits get to succeed and form their own states?
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
There appear to be some very deluded and nonsensical opinions circulating among supposedly sane people. We have voted out. We are out. We have to look forward and make it work. I suspect that many remain supporters, now that the unwanted has happened, are now fully reconciled with the outcome. It may be good, it may be bad, who knows. But it is. And the sensible remainers will realise that they have opinions in general that can't realistically be ignored. But wandering off down crazy blind alleys is not the way to achieve that.
Remaining was never that good, and a lot of people were clearly motivated by the quiet life and fear of the unknown. They will be rapidly moving on from that.
The interesting thing to watch is what happens to the groups who didn't think there would be any problems or pain from the decision and those who did but thought they could accept it. The former were bound to face reality at some point and how will they react? The latter, if things go badly, will be interesting to see who recants their judgement and who stubbornly insists its not their fault if things end up going harder than they realised.
This is what I said before the referendum but got odd looks for it. Some Prime Minister needs to push the button labelled ARTICLE 50, but already the mood is, let's be honest, bloody grim out there among many self-proclaimed LEAVE voters, and a government seeking public support and no blunders may just keep putting it off.
I can see a position where a government would want to do that - delaying till October in addition to being the Tory conference would I guess they hope enable ducks to be put in rows and so on, in terms of what we will be asking for and stabilising matters (if we're in freefall then, we really are effed!) - but my difficulty is how they could achieve it without collapsing. I mean, if a poll said 50% of Leavers now regretted their vote, that wouldn't mean a damn thing, so what actual justification would there be for not declaring at some point, especially since the argument, I thought, was after some pain we will be better off in the long term?
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
48% voted to Remain within the EU, we will now have 2 Leave led parties, UKIP and the Tories and one Leave sympathising-led party, Corbyn-led Labour. That leaves the LDs as the only out and out UK Remain party beyond the Greens
I rather suspect that of that 48 percent many were less than committed to the EU. Though conversely I rather suspect if the referendum was run again tomorrow Remain would win comfortably. Where that leaves a Remain party now I don't know.
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Honestly I think it's time you took a step back. London stops being London the minute it isn't the financial, political and media capital of a country with 67m people. Enough of this, I know you were/are a federalist, but the nation has voted.
I'm not a federalist, never have been never will be. I have, however, had to listen to wild-eyed loons bore off about the evils of the EU for my entire adult life. I have done that with the appropriate level of tolerance. You can put up with a post or two from a different perspective, even if it doesn't directly relate to your preferred monomania.
Either way, if London stops being the capital of a large nation it stops being London. We can't have an independent London that is also the capital of the UK. That really would be having one's cake and eating it.
In your haste, you don't seem to have thought this through very well.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
which towns that ? Berlin? Munich ?
Basingstoke and Reading.
So not civilisation ? :-)
When it's all a post-Brexit wasteland probably not.
Has the plague hit in either Basingstoke or Reading yet?
The interesting thing to watch is what happens to the groups who didn't think there would be any problems or pain from the decision and those who did but thought they could accept it. The former were bound to face reality at some point and how will they react? The latter, if things go badly, will be interesting to see who recants their judgement and who stubbornly insists its not their fault if things end up going harder than they realised.
This is what I said before the referendum but got odd looks for it. Some Prime Minister needs to push the button labelled ARTICLE 50, but already the mood is, let's be honest, bloody grim out there among many self-proclaimed LEAVE voters, and a government seeking public support and no blunders may just keep putting it off.
I can see a position where a government would want to do that - delaying till October in addition to being the Tory conference would I guess they hope enable ducks to be put in rows and so on, in terms of what we will be asking for and stabilising matters (if we're in freefall then, we really are effed!) - but my difficulty is how they could achieve it without collapsing. I mean, if a poll said 50% of Leavers now regretted their vote, that wouldn't mean a damn thing, so what actual justification would there be for not declaring at some point, especially since the argument, I thought, was after some pain we will be better off in the long term?
Of course, this is only a hypothetical scenario. Maybe everyone will be really keen on Brexit. If not, the actual justification would be that Boris didn't really want to and nor did many of his intending voters - in some negative scenarios for Brexit, perhaps a majority of Conservative voters would want Boris to wait until all ducks were aligned before activation of the departure, to keep jobs and finance as safe as possible.
There appear to be some very deluded and nonsensical opinions circulating among supposedly sane people. We have voted out. We are out. We have to look forward and make it work. I suspect that many remain supporters, now that the unwanted has happened, are now fully reconciled with the outcome. It may be good, it may be bad, who knows. But it is.
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Well, it was a nice Union while it lasted - looks like I was wrong it wouldn't immediately deteriorate, although I thought Scotland would be gone within 10 years anyway.
One thing's for certain: wondering about town, I've never heard so many loud and passionate Remain voices. People in pubs are denouncing with relish the folly of Leave. If any good comes of this it will be that Brexiteers will for once have to start answering for their actions, instead of blaming everyone else, as was their previous approach. That can only be healthy.
Yes indeed. And the Tory party is now effectively the proxy for the Brexit camp. I don't think it is exaggerating to suggest that their political fortunes over the next few years will now be inextricably linked with a) whether they can make a success of the whole exit process, and b) how much of the project fear prognosis actually comes to pass.
No wonder Boris would have preferred a narrow Remain win!
Greetings from Budapest. It's touching to see that on an ultra-busy news day some of you still have headspace for me.
I take Richard Nabavi's point about the age bands but for me the geographical differences are more dangerous. London has been kidnapped from the EU against its very emphatic judgement by areas of the country that expect to be heavily subsidised by the capital.
The idea of an English polis is disintegrating.
I wasn't aware it was unfair for the capital to not get its way on every issue - why does anyone outside its limits even get a vote?
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Anyway, my head is pounding as if the French government have inserted the bells of Notre Dame in it as retribution for Brexit (although I'm not sure quite why they'd choose me). So I'm going to relurk for a while. I'l still pop in to read occasionally, and I'll probably contribute whenever the following topics crop up:
*) The awesomeness and brilliance of HS2. *) Trains. *) Rockets *) Space *) Ships *) Bridges and/or tunnels *) The extreme eviltude of Apple. *) Software *) Any engineering.
In fact, almost everything aside from politics and betting. Oh, and cats. I can't talk much about cats.
Have fun everyone, and thanks for a fun 48 hours.
Cheerio, Mr. J. It has been nice having you back with us and I for one am sad to see you go again. Hopefully, now that the ghastly referendum is behind us things will settle down again and the subjects you mention will once again be a regular feature of the site.
Feeling very sad for my daughters (age 3 and 3 weeks) tonight. They have been stripped of rights and opportunities by people who will not be around to bear the consequences.
I was 8 when we joined the EEC - had no voice in that decision - and yesterday was the first time I have been able to have my say on the way I am ruled.
I would also like to think that I and most of those who voted Leave have many decades ahead of us to enjoy the benefits of our choice. Maybe when your kids are 50 they can get their first chance to decide as well.
I wouldn't imagine all that many Leave voters have too many decades in front of them.
Of the twenty or so Leavers in my immediate coterie I am the second oldest. I would suggest the majority of Leavers have many decades ahead of them.
Blatant copying of the SNP's gimmicky slogans aside, which seems good political sense really, what exactly is Farron's plan? The image says 'continue to make the case for Britain's future in Europe' which is not inherently undemocratic if they can convince a majority of people to do the same is it? - that's the problem with close results, the losing side think if you ask the question again they'll win next time. But unless they use skulduggery to stop the government from moving ahead with enforcing the results of the referendum, they're free to argue we should rejoin, although I can see that being a hard sell (years of negotiations and disruption, then the probably just as arduous rejoining, on worse terms no doubt)..
But are the LDs arguing for us to just not declare article 50 without a second referendum to endorse that, to hold a second referendum to make sure the people meant what they voted for, what?
You might like what finally emerges.
Well, maybe. I'm at a bit of a loss. Generally I vote LD in a Tory seat, but even though 30% of LD voters did likewise, I feel it would be hypocritical to do that after voting Leave. Corbynite Labour is not an option (I think he's safe from this challenge, and if he isn't McDonnell will probably win, on the grounds he's similar but more competent), the Greens just, no, not an option, UKIP definitely not but the Tories might well just get rid of all the things I did like, and be even more incompetent than Labour to boot (though I hope not, given the rocky start to the new era).
Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has come out for Scottish Independence on Scotland Tonight.
Independence on the back of not being in the EU is just stupid (even more so if the EU option is not even on the table in the event of a yes vote). The GB will remain comfortably Scotland's most important market and they can realistically anyway expect access to the EU via UK agreements.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
Quite. Unfathomably genius. If it works, it may shoot some foxes too.
Francois Hollande's statement posted on his Facebook page says that 'the procedures envisaged in the treaties will be rapidly applied. This is the rule and the consequence [of the referendum]'.
I'd estimate that the majority of the comments below from French people are saying that we are right to leave the EU and that France should do the same.
Delaying Article 50 until a new PM is in place really does put the EU leaders under immense pressure.
Quite. The issue they have is that they have themselves over a barrel. We have ourselves over a barrel as well but we can't print loads of cash...
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
I don't think you are right. Listening to the lunchtime interviews the conclusion I reached was that the EU is actually likely to play things long and relatively difficult, in the hope that the Uk public/political mood changes and we actually decide in the end that leaving is all too difficult. Whilst this seems unlikely and completely contrary to public opinion right now, it seems to me entirely possible that things could look very different in a year or two - particularly if the economic price of the vote has become much more apparent - and especially if there has been an election and political change-about in the meantime. After all, two years (plus!) is a long time in politics, and spinning problems out and waiting for something to turn up is the EU's USP.....
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
Comments
its a thought
Does this not suggest that the problem was with your reading of the mood of Labour voters, rather than with Corbyn?
You're in danger of becoming too wrapped up in your own bullshit. I'll tell you one Londoner to another, it's becoming tiresome. We've left. End of. Let's try and work out a solution where everyone wins, and there are surely ways to make that happen.
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
40% want the rate of immigration brought down
50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance
10% europhile
For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end.
If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with.
The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Scotlands economy is fkd
it's like NI they wont vote for a 20% cut in their standard of living
----------------
The idea that the Scots will vote for independence with oil prices at $50 is fanciful
why would we agree
Still can't really believe this has happened and who know's what's going to happen next?
A golden era awaits? Or self immolation?
So I'm going to relurk for a while. I'l still pop in to read occasionally, and I'll probably contribute whenever the following topics crop up:
*) The awesomeness and brilliance of HS2.
*) Trains.
*) Rockets
*) Space
*) Ships
*) Bridges and/or tunnels
*) The extreme eviltude of Apple.
*) Software
*) Any engineering.
In fact, almost everything aside from politics and betting. Oh, and cats. I can't talk much about cats.
Have fun everyone, and thanks for a fun 48 hours.
You know what, your issues are not my problem either.
Well, if we did vote a second time and Remained this time, it would be mildly hilarious (not sure how it's justifiable to vote again, sorry petition but the rules were clear), because the best of three joke from earlier really would seem viable, because if you voted again to confirm the first one, why not a third to make sure the second was clear, particularly if it was close.
I'd estimate that the majority of the comments below from French people are saying that we are right to leave the EU and that France should do the same.
Delaying Article 50 until a new PM is in place really does put the EU leaders under immense pressure.
Ive been listening for most of my adult life that NI is off
and then people do the numbers and decide theyd rather be subsidised by Alistair Meeks
@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
I mean the upset and fallout over the phone code change was bad enough without a Meekerman turning up in the neighbourhood and drawing chalk lines down the centre of suburban thoroughfares...
None.
I reckon the Scots will be keen to explore whether the reverse can be done - they stay in the EU whilst the rest of the U.K. leaves. Whether this is remotely feasible I have no idea, but even if not, I suggest the rUK needs to respond to the issue thoughtfully if it does not want to give the Scots the ammunition they need to push the swing 10% of their population over to the independence side.
https://twitter.com/markmcdsnp/status/746453990532067328
I think that what Tim Farron is saying is that we in the UK should not turn our backs on Europe (a la Farage). The implication is that we need to explore what the new relationship ought to be - and that is not necessarily with the EU as constituted at present. If the EU does break up, as was discussed on here earlier today, that could be the basis for forming a new kind of relationship more acceptable to the British people.
Mr Charles recently posted an item in which he distinguished between the EU and a more relaxed form of association, and one which did not give priority to the interests of large corporations. This received many favourable comments on this site, including from myself.
So when Tim Farron is calling for people with a more international approach to come and join the Liberal Democrats, it could be the "Charles model" that emerges, not the existing EU model.
With the Conservative and Labour Parties unhappily divided on this question (as on many others) it would surely be sensible for Conservative posters to refrain from charging in where angels fear to tread. Wait and see, Mr White, and others. You might like what finally emerges.
Remaining was never that good, and a lot of people were clearly motivated by the quiet life and fear of the unknown. They will be rapidly moving on from that.
By email
"I'm fucked , you're fucked , we're all fucking fucked"
Still at least Boris gets to play PM.
In your haste, you don't seem to have thought this through very well.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
No wonder Boris would have preferred a narrow Remain win!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/746458701565988864
And Rumsfeld endorses Trump, as the 'known unknown'...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/23/donald-rumsfeld-prefers-donald-trump-over-hillary-/
Evan Davis rightly contemptuous.
What was the oil price in GBP today? Approx 10-15% more.
What will it be tomorrow...
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
I have more faith in this country