Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
The clue in my post is the "more likely"
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
Old King Cole... if you and your friends voted remain, and if you are as genuinely appalled (and repelled) by this awful vote, then I think we are on the same side.
I thought that modern recording of Giovenezza was quite good
And, as I posted earlier, the worst thing about this vote is that the oldies, with all their advantages, their pensions, their free education and free education for their kids, their houses, their wealth in stocks and shares....the oldies are so selfish, closed and racist.
Thank goodness the younger voters are so positive, otherwise I would think all of my fellow citizens similar to the many pbCOM nasties, zenophobes...the freaks and geeks, the ideologues, the saddos, the socially inadequates, obsessives and narrow minded, pathetic excuses for humanity and so forth.
Life moves on. And the young give me a sense of hope that we will move on from this nihilistic, nationalistic, racist, lowest common denominator, nihilism...an affliction that particularly afflicts the contributors here.
And last, but not least, well done Anna Soubry. Her contributions today have been the most stunning of any politician in recent memory. Go Anna.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
My only consolation is that we're sparing tyson's wife from this incessant, monotonous dribble .
The flower power generation were always selfish, they never changed. Their children, however, not so much, and they are the newest voters.
Think your chronology is bit off there. The flower power lot are clogging up the golf courses. The new voters are the children of the punks and new romantics. I'll own to being an old Dad (32 when we had m'daughter).
Because the idea that Scotland will simply hop into the UK's vacated place, coincidentally hoovering up all the cushy exemptions and opt-outs, is a SNP fantasy. An independent Scotland will be a new country, and will have to go through all the same accession procedures as any other applicant. Sadly, Scotland outside the UK is nowhere near as important as Sturgeon's ludicrous press conference this morning, announcing bilateral meetings and government missions, suggests she believes it is.
Scotland would, if the EU took the view, be a successor state to the United Kingdom (which again, if the EU took the view, would have been dissolved). As such there is nothing to stop the EU offering Scotland to acquire the UK membership.
The best thing about the EU doing it this way, is that there would be no Veto and it would all be done on bureaucratic decision and QMV.
Unfortunately, your enthusiasm appears to have outstripped your understanding of the logistics. If Scotland gains its independence before Article 50 negotiations are complete, it cannot be the successor state to the UK because the UK will still be in the EU. If Scotland gains its independence after Article 50 negotiations are complete, the EU can treat it as the successor state but it'll still be out of the EU and will have to reapply for membership. The EU is not going to bend over backwards for Scotland in the way the SNP believes because, as the SNP have apparently yet to realise, Scotland needs the EU far more than the EU needs Scotland.
Article 50 can be delayed indefinitely.
The discussion was not about whether the EU would or would not do things this way. It was that the EU could do it this way. And clearly it is well within its purview.
No, article 50 can be extended by agreement of all 27 member states but it's up to Britain when it gets triggered. And extending it doesn't resolve the issue I posted above, whereby Scotland cannot become the UK and be in the EU. Even if the EU could act the way you suggested, which it can't, there's no reason why it would. If Sturgeon is not well aware of this, Scottish independence is going to be even messier than Brexit.
"The mayor of Calais has raised the prospect of migrants camped in Calais could be sent to the UK as a result of Brexit because it could see the unravelling of the border deal that currently keeps many of them in France.
Natacha Bouchart told French broadcaster BFM TV:
The British must take on the consequences of their choice. We are in a strong position to push, to press this request for a review and we are asking the president to bring his weight [to the issue]. We must put everything on the table and there must be an element of division, of sharing. This echoed calls from Xavier Bertrand, the centre-right president of the Hauts-de-France region, who tweeted: “The English wanted to take back their freedom, they must take back their border.”
The law of unintended consequences.
The French Government has already dismissed it though.
Note the quiet from the French and German governments. They are working on a deal....
Imagine if Cameron had sat down at the start of the EU re-negotiations and said to the leaders
"Ladies. Gentlemen. Close your eyes. Imagine it is June, 2016. OK? Now imagine listening to the news from London. Listening? Right. Here comes the result of the UK Referendum I have had to promise to undertake. The UK has voted 52% to 48%. To Leave the EU.
I see your eyes are open again. Good. Now - work with me to prevent that outcome...offer me what you would then be prepared to offer the UK to keep the show on the road...."
We could have just had the voters approve our Associate membership - with all manner of sweeteners. Approved 73% to 27%.
Hannan said that was always on offer, but Mr Cameron didn't want it.
Has there been an article outlining why Cameron did not go for Associate membership of the EU?
Probably because it is an exit essentially. Associate membership is basically just EFTA so why try to Remain with an exit when that exit would be what likely happens if we leave?
'Quite. For the first time in my life I barely give a fuck if Scotland secedes. They really wanna leave the UK and rejoin the EU with the euro, Schengen, unelected government, et al?
If they do, if being Against England means that, then so be it. Fuck them. Let 'em go.'
Same for NI have a referendum and accept what the majority wants.
The problem with NI is that no-one there will vote for a United Ireland - even the republicans don't really support it. While I imagine there are plenty of people in England, Scotland and Wales who would want NI to bugger off, the NI people just won't do it.
Oh and Ireland doesn't want them either.
I won't profess to know anything about Irish politics. Some Irish (Republic of Ireland) people I know refer to Northern Ireland as "Fake Ireland" and simultanously and all at once want to incorporate it into Ireland 'proper' and build a great big wall along the current border. Love/hate between neighbours I suppose.
Racist comment alert. You don't necessarily expect logic from the Irish (any sort) do you?
And, as I posted earlier, the worst thing about this vote is that the oldies, with all their advantages, their pensions, their free education and free education for their kids, their houses, their wealth in stocks and shares....the oldies are so selfish, closed and racist.
Thank goodness the younger voters are so positive, otherwise I would think all of my fellow citizens similar to the many pbCOM nasties, zenophobes...the freaks and geeks, the ideologues, the saddos, the socially inadequates, obsessives and narrow minded, pathetic excuses for humanity and so forth.
Life moves on. And the young give me a sense of hope that we will move on from this nihilistic, nationalistic, racist, lowest common denominator, nihilism...an affliction that particularly afflicts the contributors here.
And last, but not least, well done Anna Soubry. Her contributions today have been the most stunning of any politician in recent memory. Go Anna.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
My wife always taunts me that one day I'll be a Tory.
John McDonnell bullish about Labour's prospects at a snap general election.
Curiously there will not be one. Primarily because:
1. The fixed term parliament act.
2. We need stability not snap elections.
3. Who ever takes over as PM will not be stupid,
Small majority, not many disaffected people needed for a vote of confidence.
Do you suppose the Tory ranks are filled with Europhiles in self destruct mode?
Enough, and the country will thank them.
No, and er no they will not. What is more the Europhiles may find they have no troops.
Troops? What are you on about? You don't seem to have understood the depth of feeling in the ranks. They are better off out of the party if they want to survive, jump before they get deselected.
Oh, I see. So half a dozen become LDs in safe tory seats to skupper the government and win their seets back at the next GE when their former troops (who as you know love their LD brethren dearly) will be as angry as hell?
Why not just accept the result and move on?
Best thing to do is to not try and deselect them I suppose.
Who said anything about deselecting them? If they want to fight a seat they need troops who are ready willing and able. If they've brought the government they would not have them in the numbers required.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
I suspect that if anything they will be more angry and disenchanted, ranting about the evils of Chinese supercapitalism.
Nah, it'll be about robots.
It will be about the evil robots built by the Chinese Hypercapitalists. Obviously.....
"I'se remembers when all this was call centres. Call centres, supermarkets and B&Q. Proper jobs we had then - none of this modern rubbish. We had real work then...."
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
I suspect that if anything they will be more angry and disenchanted, ranting about the evils of Chinese supercapitalism.
Nah, it'll be about robots.
It will be about the evil robots built by the Chinese Hypercapitalists. Obviously.....
"I'se remembers when all this was call centres. Call centres, supermarkets and B&Q. Proper jobs we had then - none of this modern rubbish. We had real work then...."
lol. tbh the politicians will be so much happier when we're all replaced with robots. So much more dependable.
And, as I posted earlier, the worst thing about this vote is that the oldies, with all their advantages, their pensions, their free education and free education for their kids, their houses, their wealth in stocks and shares....the oldies are so selfish, closed and racist.
Thank goodness the younger voters are so positive, otherwise I would think all of my fellow citizens similar to the many pbCOM nasties, zenophobes...the freaks and geeks, the ideologues, the saddos, the socially inadequates, obsessives and narrow minded, pathetic excuses for humanity and so forth.
Life moves on. And the young give me a sense of hope that we will move on from this nihilistic, nationalistic, racist, lowest common denominator, nihilism...an affliction that particularly afflicts the contributors here.
And last, but not least, well done Anna Soubry. Her contributions today have been the most stunning of any politician in recent memory. Go Anna.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
My wife always taunts me that one day I'll be a Tory.
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
The clue in my post is the "more likely"
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
Old King Cole... if you and your friends voted remain, and if you are as genuinely appalled (and repelled) by this awful vote, then I think we are on the same side.
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
He's right. It's the closest of close shaves, there but for the grace of God go I etc. Are all the old folkways dying out? It's magnanimous in victory, gracious in defeat.
We just have to accept that the UK is littered with people who wanted to stay in the EU for all kinds of reasons and we're going to have to be pleasant with them. I admit it's a _teensy_ bit hard with some people at the moment. But we'll get through it.
'Quite. For the first time in my life I barely give a fuck if Scotland secedes. They really wanna leave the UK and rejoin the EU with the euro, Schengen, unelected government, et al?
If they do, if being Against England means that, then so be it. Fuck them. Let 'em go.'
Same for NI have a referendum and accept what the majority wants.
The problem with NI is that no-one there will vote for a United Ireland - even the republicans don't really support it. While I imagine there are plenty of people in England, Scotland and Wales who would want NI to bugger off, the NI people just won't do it.
Oh and Ireland doesn't want them either.
I won't profess to know anything about Irish politics. Some Irish (Republic of Ireland) people I know refer to Northern Ireland as "Fake Ireland" and simultanously and all at once want to incorporate it into Ireland 'proper' and build a great big wall along the current border. Love/hate between neighbours I suppose.
The Southern Irish regard the North as an embarrassing relative who they have to love. But they really, really don't want to come to stay.
The North needs massive subsidies. The South has highly restrictive abortion laws - and a welfare system that would involve a massive cut for those on benefits if the North joined...
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
The clue in my post is the "more likely"
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
(Snip)
Tyson, I'm not sure you;re doing yourself any favours.
Whilst there would have been racists, nihilists, reactionaries, narrow-minded bigots and oldies voting to leave (along with many other character types), its vastly unfair to tar over half the country with those brushes. I know many honest, thoughtful and decent people who voted leave. Most if not all of the leavers on here are the same.
The vision is only dark and bleak if we let it become so. Sadly you seem well down that road.
I reluctantly voted remain, but I think a happier, more prosperous country can emerge from a leave vote. But it needs work. Instead of being so negative, use your passion to make it work.
Attack racism when you see it (and don't let stupid cries of 'wacist' put you off). But please don't see it where it doesn't exist.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
Yes, Leave won, and that has to be implemented. But don't pretend it's an overwhelming win.
And, as I posted earlier, the worst thing about this vote is that the oldies, with all their advantages, their pensions, their free education and free education for their kids, their houses, their wealth in stocks and shares....the oldies are so selfish, closed and racist.
Thank goodness the younger voters are so positive, otherwise I would think all of my fellow citizens similar to the many pbCOM nasties, zenophobes...the freaks and geeks, the ideologues, the saddos, the socially inadequates, obsessives and narrow minded, pathetic excuses for humanity and so forth.
Life moves on. And the young give me a sense of hope that we will move on from this nihilistic, nationalistic, racist, lowest common denominator, nihilism...an affliction that particularly afflicts the contributors here.
And last, but not least, well done Anna Soubry. Her contributions today have been the most stunning of any politician in recent memory. Go Anna.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
My wife always taunts me that one day I'll be a Tory.
And she's right of course.
No - he won't get admitted to the Tory party with views like that about the working class.
Presume Brady now runs the PM election process - when will he be setting out a timeline?
Hague resigned after losing the June 2001 GE but IDS wasn't announced as successor until September 12th so it was three months (and that was in the luxury of opposition).
We can, I imagine, assume a contest so a similar three months period up to and including the party conference (October 2-5 at Birmingham) plus a week after to return ballots so it looks like in the next couple of weeks.
The successors to Thatcher and Wilson were both chosen from an electorate representing just the respective Parliamentary Parties so the process could be much quicker (as it was with Macmillan before that).
Democracy, bless it, slows the process and while that may be fine in the luxury of Opposition, is it the same in Government ? Cameron is now a lame duck and some of his Cabinet will be eyeing his seat and some may assume their Cabinet days are over whatever happens.
We've had virtual paralysis of Government during the Referendum Campaign - now the Conservatives are going for more self-indulgence with a beauty contest for an electorate the size of the population of Braintree (if you believe some figures) or the size of Worcester (if you believe others).
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
It's only democracy when you vote the same way as they do
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
True story: many years ago an elderly relative was talking to my wife. She started spouting the most horrid, appalling racist comments as my wife and I just smiled and nodded politely. She then put her hand on my wife's knee and said: "Oh, but you aren't an immigrant."
As my wife says: if you pretend not to be different, you're generally fine.
Could be one of my (very) elderly relatives, actually!
The funny thing is that whilst my wife is Turkish, my Aussie ex had a much worse time of it.
Yes, to my relative Aussies were worse than Turks (though both are hateful immigrants). Except when they fit in and I love them, when suddenly they became English roses!
No, article 50 can be extended by agreement of all 27 member states but it's up to Britain when it gets triggered. And extending it doesn't resolve the issue I posted above, whereby Scotland cannot become the UK and be in the EU. Even if the EU could act the way you suggested, which it can't, there's no reason why it would. If Sturgeon is not well aware of this, Scottish independence is going to be even messier than Brexit.
I think you're maybe misunderstanding the concept in play judging by one of your other posts. Scotland does not "become" the UK. In the scenario, the EU decides that the UK dissolves (fairly straightforward) and then becomes two successor states - Scotland and rUK - it then decides to offer Scotland the former UK's membership as a successor state.
Again the discussion is not about whether the EU will or will not do this or whether it is attractive or not to the EU. Merely that it is possible without offering a Veto to Spain (which itself is not as cut and died as some seem to think given the importance of the CFP to them).
"The mayor of Calais has raised the prospect of migrants camped in Calais could be sent to the UK as a result of Brexit because it could see the unravelling of the border deal that currently keeps many of them in France.
Natacha Bouchart told French broadcaster BFM TV:
The British must take on the consequences of their choice. We are in a strong position to push, to press this request for a review and we are asking the president to bring his weight [to the issue]. We must put everything on the table and there must be an element of division, of sharing. This echoed calls from Xavier Bertrand, the centre-right president of the Hauts-de-France region, who tweeted: “The English wanted to take back their freedom, they must take back their border.”
The law of unintended consequences.
The French Government has already dismissed it though.
Note the quiet from the French and German governments. They are working on a deal....
Imagine if Cameron had sat down at the start of the EU re-negotiations and said to the leaders
"Ladies. Gentlemen. Close your eyes. Imagine it is June, 2016. OK? Now imagine listening to the news from London. Listening? Right. Here comes the result of the UK Referendum I have had to promise to undertake. The UK has voted 52% to 48%. To Leave the EU.
I see your eyes are open again. Good. Now - work with me to prevent that outcome...offer me what you would then be prepared to offer the UK to keep the show on the road...."
We could have just had the voters approve our Associate membership - with all manner of sweeteners. Approved 73% to 27%.
Hannan said that was always on offer, but Mr Cameron didn't want it.
Has there been an article outlining why Cameron did not go for Associate membership of the EU?
Not that I'm aware of.
Mr Clegg has a piece in the FT where he says Messrs Cameron and Osborne past euroscepticism was all a pose, so you could assume they just didn't want that kind of a relationship.
The oldies were the Flower Power generation. 40 years on, the 18-24 year olds will hold the same views.
I suspect that if anything they will be more angry and disenchanted, ranting about the evils of Chinese supercapitalism.
Nah, it'll be about robots.
It will be about the evil robots built by the Chinese Hypercapitalists. Obviously.....
"I'se remembers when all this was call centres. Call centres, supermarkets and B&Q. Proper jobs we had then - none of this modern rubbish. We had real work then...."
lol. tbh the politicians will be so much happier when we're all replaced with robots. So much more dependable.
As I posted before :
After the uprising of the 17th of June The Secretary of the Writers' Union Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee Stating that the people Had forfeited the confidence of the government And could win it back only By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier In that case for the government To dissolve the people And elect another?
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
The English Leavers will be found amongst wealthy Leave voters as well as poor, I think we will soon return to the situation prior to the eighteenth century, Leave voting England united with Leave voting Wales and Remain voting Scotland an independent nation (NI will also remain in the UK as long as it retains a Unionist majority)
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
That's an interesting comment. My own impression was that self-identification as English grew in response to Scottish/Welsh identification - a sort of resentment that only the English were ever called British.
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
True story: many years ago an elderly relative was talking to my wife. She started spouting the most horrid, appalling racist comments as my wife and I just smiled and nodded politely. She then put her hand on my wife's knee and said: "Oh, but you aren't an immigrant."
As my wife says: if you pretend not to be different, you're generally fine.
Could be one of my (very) elderly relatives, actually!
The funny thing is that whilst my wife is Turkish, my Aussie ex had a much worse time of it.
Yes, to my relative Aussies were worse than Turks (though both are hateful immigrants). Except when they fit in and I love them, when suddenly they became English roses!
I don't make many rules for myself. However, in my youth it was axiomatic that I did not introduce my girlfriends to my Grandma Daisy. A lovely woman, but somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan, and noisy with it.
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
That's an interesting comment. My own impression was that self-identification as English grew in response to Scottish/Welsh identification - a sort of resentment that only the English were ever called British.
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
I was a remainer (albeit reluctant), and I don't think I fit in that category. I've accepted the result, as I think have many others throughout the day.
Besides, be honest: if the situation was reversed then there would be many leavers throwing similar strops. In many cases they were having preemptive ones before the vote!
"The young have had their preferred Establishment shattered on their behalf. "
Yeah I know that feeling and the first time I was given the choice since 17 years old some 42 years I had to vote leave.
Deal with it like I and many of us had to then which we did with respect for the democratic process and just got on with it. Something you Remainers cannot do. FFF I saw on a previous thread one poster considered that 52/48 was the matter not settled.
As was stated at the first referendum that's democracy for you.
The 1975 referendum was 65-35. Hardly a valid comparison.
Leave have won but they have certainly not gained an emphatic mandate.
What is it with you Remainers. Had that result been reversed it would have been claimed an absolute mandate irreversible the people had spoken.
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
He's right. It's the closest of close shaves, there but for the grace of God go I etc. Are all the old folkways dying out? It's magnanimous in victory, gracious in defeat.
We just have to accept that the UK is littered with people who wanted to stay in the EU for all kinds of reasons and we're going to have to be pleasant with them. I admit it's a _teensy_ bit hard with some people at the moment. But we'll get through it.
Farage said if it was REMAIN 52 he would fight for a second referendum
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ign
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so go their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Anthem for doomed Youth
What passing-bells for these who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger of the guns. Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle Can patter out their hasty orisons. No mockeries] now for them; no prayers nor bells; Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, – The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells; And bugles calling for them from sad shires. What candles may be held to speed them all? Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes. The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall; Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds, And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.
Owen, one of my favourite poems which puts the perils of youth in context
and congrats Richard, a day I thought Id never see :-)
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
No, article 50 can be extended by agreement of all 27 member states but it's up to Britain when it gets triggered. And extending it doesn't resolve the issue I posted above, whereby Scotland cannot become the UK and be in the EU. Even if the EU could act the way you suggested, which it can't, there's no reason why it would. If Sturgeon is not well aware of this, Scottish independence is going to be even messier than Brexit.
I think you're maybe misunderstanding the concept in play judging by one of your other posts. Scotland does not "become" the UK. In the scenario, the EU decides that the UK dissolves (fairly straightforward) and then becomes two successor states - Scotland and rUK - it then decides to offer Scotland the former UK's membership as a successor state.
Again the discussion is not about whether the EU will or will not do this or whether it is attractive or not to the EU. Merely that it is possible without offering a Veto to Spain (which itself is not as cut and died as some seem to think given the importance of the CFP to them).
Like I've said, you've not thought about the logistics. The UK would divide into two nations, and rUK would be the successor state. All the UK officials in Brussels and the vast majority of the MEPs would owe allegiance to Westminster and rUK. Even if the EU nominally designated Scotland as the successor state, it would somehow have to ask all those officials to go home and allow Scottish replacements to turn up. But because the UK is still part of the EU, those British officials are currently negotiating Britain's withdrawal under article 50. And article 50, once commenced, cannot be revoked. So Britain would have to voluntarily walk away from the negotiating table without any kind of agreement, and Scottish replacements turn up- only to continue to negotiate the "UK" withdrawal, because article 50 is irreversible.
I do sometimes wonder whether Sturgeon has thought this through. My guess is she has, and she's hoping to bounce the Scottish electorate into independence outside the EU without the implications of the deal being clear to them. After all, the wellbeing of the Scottish people is officially the SNP's second priority behind independence.
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Well that well and truly put me in my place
It wasn't meant to Tyson. I am trying, post Leave vote, to refrain from the personal attacks I have been guilty of in the past. This was directed specifically at your assertions and not at you personally.
The sort of person who would give a tinkers cuss that an Italian magazine is taking the piss out of Boris, is I suppose the sort of person who votes Remain.
The sort of educated person who can't distinguish between French and Italian, is I suppose the sort of person who's brought this mess upon us.
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
Yes, with the Tories likely to be led by a Leaver, probably either Boris or Gove and Labour still led by Corbyn, whose heart was really with Leave, there is a gap in the market for a party to represent Remainers and Farron is already rushing to fill it!
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
Very good. It's a shame that some young people are so frequently pessimistic about the future, there has never been a better time to be alive. In 2016 Britain's leaving the EU and that causes the young much concern (even though it is highly likely that it won't amount to a greatly different future when all is said and done), 100 years ago they would have been fighting in the Great War. Essentially everything is better today, and in ways that 100 years ago would have been almost inconceivable.
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
True story: many years ago an elderly relative was talking to my wife. She started spouting the most horrid, appalling racist comments as my wife and I just smiled and nodded politely. She then put her hand on my wife's knee and said: "Oh, but you aren't an immigrant."
As my wife says: if you pretend not to be different, you're generally fine.
Could be one of my (very) elderly relatives, actually!
The funny thing is that whilst my wife is Turkish, my Aussie ex had a much worse time of it.
Yes, to my relative Aussies were worse than Turks (though both are hateful immigrants). Except when they fit in and I love them, when suddenly they became English roses!
I don't make many rules for myself. However, in my youth it was axiomatic that I did not introduce my girlfriends to my Grandma Daisy. A lovely woman, but somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan, and noisy with it.
Another story about the same lady: when I first took my Aussie gf to see her (as the relationship was getting serious), we pulled into her road to find an ambulance outside her house.
She had had a stroke thirty minutes before. They met as she was being wheeled into the ambulance. Not the best introduction!
Yet she was kind, sweet, generous and lovely, and I have very fond memories of her.
Another memory: when she was in her nineties and going a little doolally, she said: "I haven't known many men sexually."
In front of her equally-elderly husband, who just nodded. I'm not sure I needed that information.
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
The sort of person who would give a tinkers cuss that an Italian magazine is taking the piss out of Boris, is I suppose the sort of person who votes Remain.
The sort of educated person who can't distinguish between French and Italian, is I suppose the sort of person who's brought this mess upon us.
'Quite. For the first time in my life I barely give a fuck if Scotland secedes. They really wanna leave the UK and rejoin the EU with the euro, Schengen, unelected government, et al?
If they do, if being Against England means that, then so be it. Fuck them. Let 'em go.'
Same for NI have a referendum and accept what the majority wants.
The problem with NI is that no-one there will vote for a United Ireland - even the republicans don't really support it. While I imagine there are plenty of people in England, Scotland and Wales who would want NI to bugger off, the NI people just won't do it.
Oh and Ireland doesn't want them either.
I won't profess to know anything about Irish politics. Some Irish (Republic of Ireland) people I know refer to Northern Ireland as "Fake Ireland" and simultanously and all at once want to incorporate it into Ireland 'proper' and build a great big wall along the current border. Love/hate between neighbours I suppose.
The Southern Irish regard the North as an embarrassing relative who they have to love. But they really, really don't want to come to stay.
The North needs massive subsidies. The South has highly restrictive abortion laws - and a welfare system that would involve a massive cut for those on benefits if the North joined...
The North also has highly restrictive abortion laws.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
Very good. It's a shame that some young people are so frequently pessimistic about the future, there has never been a better time to be alive. In 2016 Britain's leaving the EU and that causes the young much concern (even though it is highly likely that it won't amount to a greatly different future when all is said and done), 100 years ago they would have been fighting in the Great War. Essentially everything is better today, and in ways that 100 years ago would have been almost inconceivable.
There does seem to be this strain of existential dread everywhere. It's very odd. There has never been a better time to be alive.*
*Personally that's not true. I would love to be able to see dinosaurs. But I'm odd.
Like I've said, you've not thought about the logistics. The UK would divide into two nations, and rUK would be the successor state. All the UK officials in Brussels and the vast majority of the MEPs would owe allegiance to Westminster and rUK. Even if the EU nominally designated Scotland as the successor state, it would somehow have to ask all those officials to go home and allow Scottish replacements to turn up. But because the UK is still part of the EU, those British officials are currently negotiating Britain's withdrawal under article 50. And article 50, once commenced, cannot be revoked. So Britain would have to voluntarily walk away from the negotiating table without any kind of agreement, and Scottish replacements turn up- only to continue to negotiate the "UK" withdrawal, because article 50 is irreversible.
I do sometimes wonder whether Sturgeon has thought this through. My guess is she has, and she's hoping to bounce the Scottish electorate into independence outside the EU without the implications of the deal being clear to them. After all, the wellbeing of the Scottish people is officially the SNP's second priority behind independence.
You seem to be getting yourself tied up in your misunderstanding of what is being discussed.
You are describing a continuing state which the remnant UK would want to be. But it's not their decision. The EU decides if the states are continuing or successor. It's their decision. That's how these things work. If the EU decides there is no continuing state and only two successor states, there is absolutely nothing the remnant UK can do about that.
You can claim to be a continuing state till your blue in the face but without recognition of that status by others, you're not.
Epic post by Richard Tyndall in response to Tyson. Surely a post of the year contender.
Speaking of Tyson, and Mr Meeks come to think of it, the weight of all that moral superiority must be a crushing burden. Rather different to those burdens that weigh on the shoulders of the good citizens of Hull, Bradford, Burnley, Walsall, Doncaster and others that you sneer at as xenophobes and racists. Many of your posts during this campaign have been nauseatingly condescending and just more evidence that you just don't get it.
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
Now, now, Benedict, as a likely-to-be-former LD member soon, I really don't think you should be mean to Tim.
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
Over on LDV, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a desire to have a second referendum (I've heard that before somewhere else, perhaps Scott P can enlighten me).
As a LEAVE voter (and there were quite a few of us it seems), it would be remiss of me to suggest it's perfectly possible to be an internationalist and still vote LEAVE. The problem is the EU - it hasn't always been the EU but it has become the EU. That's what I voted against and the mantra that it can be "reformed from within".
I've been awake pretty much non-stop since 7am Thursday... And still feeling pretty exhilarated!
Well you should relax a bit - sure you will get a second wind and be exhilarated for much longer. Have had little sleep myself until this afternoon - hope everyone is a bit kinder to each other - the decision is made and to see those eurocrats running around in a furious rage pleases me no end, and that from a remainer
Do we know the turnout by age group? Older voters are generally more likely to vote. This may partly be the reason the youngsters got outvoted by the oldies.
It's double trouble with the oldies...not only are they more likely to be racist, xenophobic, selfish, mean spirited, bigoted, narrow minded, and just plain nasty....but they are more likely to vote.
As a 78 year old who voted, and did some work for, Remain and always votes, I object on behalf of the many of my friends and relations who are as appaled as I am at the result.
The clue in my post is the "more likely"
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
(Snip)
Tyson, I'm not sure you;re doing yourself any favours.
Whilst there would have been racists, nihilists, reactionaries, narrow-minded bigots and oldies voting to leave (along with many other character types), its vastly unfair to tar over half the country with those brushes. I know many honest, thoughtful and decent people who voted leave. Most if not all of the leavers on here are the same.
The vision is only dark and bleak if we let it become so. Sadly you seem well down that road.
I reluctantly voted remain, but I think a happier, more prosperous country can emerge from a leave vote. But it needs work. Instead of being so negative, use your passion to make it work.
Attack racism when you see it (and don't let stupid cries of 'wacist' put you off). But please don't see it where it doesn't exist.
A genuinely thoughtful reply.
But, today I just need to vent. I have only just got over the shock of this morning. I met my wife on an Erasmus EU Scheme. My thoughts, plans and hopes for the future never considered the prospect that we would withdraw from Europe, by ourselves. My personal vision for an inclusive, optimistic, future is a bit shattered. Europe for me was much important than party politics.
Today let me be angry. Perhaps tomorrow I can consider building bridges, maybe just a little.
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also builtuld, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Well that well and truly put me in my place
It wasn't meant to Tyson. I am trying, post Leave vote, to refrain from the personal attacks I have been guilty of in the past. This was directed specifically at your assertions and not at you personally.
First chance to congratulate you, Richard. What an extraordinary 24 hours for you. To have what you've spent so long advocating actually happen. I bet you can't quite believe it. I'd be very emotional if it were me. I envy you!
Now, you know, we're relying on the likes of you and Casino to be right!!
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Your friend sounds a bit of a pompous ass to be honest - claiming humanity's achievements as his own. I suspect he wears an unsatisfactory moustache.
Hopefully, the weekend will calm things. The last thing we need is an Asian sell-off on Monday.
Is the USA leaving the EU too?
No, it's reacting to Brexit. Just as other markets have. This is a highly inter-connected world.
They'll calm down when they have to stop to refill the crack pipe.
Actually, any sudden unexpected political change causes a blip. People are watching Merkel who is both quiet and I suspect silencing the loudmouths. Calm will prevail.
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
That's an interesting comment. My own impression was that self-identification as English grew in response to Scottish/Welsh identification - a sort of resentment that only the English were ever called British.
Correct, I think of myself as English now whereas I used to see myself as British (i'm still the better side of 30). I would certainly ascribe that to Scottish and Welsh nationalism/devolution.
The breakup of the UK has been inevitable for some time. Now who was it that was pushing this agenda, and who is now distraught it may come to pass?
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Blatant copying of the SNP's gimmicky slogans aside, which seems good political sense really, what exactly is Farron's plan? The image says 'continue to make the case for Britain's future in Europe' which is not inherently undemocratic if they can convince a majority of people to do the same is it? - that's the problem with close results, the losing side think if you ask the question again they'll win next time. But unless they use skulduggery to stop the government from moving ahead with enforcing the results of the referendum, they're free to argue we should rejoin, although I can see that being a hard sell (years of negotiations and disruption, then the probably just as arduous rejoining, on worse terms no doubt)..
Apparently Farage argued before the referendum that a very close result for remain was grounds itself for a rerun (due to unfairness of the campaign I imagine, but there have been lies on both at least), so it's not as though Leavers can argue with a straight face all Leavers would have accepted the matter settled by democratic will if the vote had been the other way.
But are the LDs arguing for us to just not declare article 50 without a second referendum to endorse that, to hold a second referendum to make sure the people meant what they voted for, what?
Epic post by Richard Tyndall in response to Tyson. Surely a post of the year contender.
Speaking of Tyson, and Mr Meeks come to think of it, the weight of all that moral superiority must be a crushing burden. Rather different to those burdens that weigh on the shoulders of the good citizens of Hull, Bradford, Burnley, Walsall, Doncaster and others that you sneer at as xenophobes and racists. Many of your posts during this campaign have been nauseatingly condescending and just more evidence that you just don't get it.
Alastair bless him is particularly funny with his 'I shall stand aside and observe - I shall not help the xenophobes' with all the pathos of a latter-day Robert Peel. It seems a shame to tell him that despite his many undoubted qualities, a pensions solicitor who occasionally writes for PB might not be Britain's first port of call in her hour of need.
I am so utterly depressed that this reactionary, populist, nihilistic, racist, vote was predominantly dominated by the narrow minded, ignorant, voting oldies who have imposed their dark, bleak vision of the future on the optimistic youth.
For 'optimistic youth' try 'ignorant youth'. The Youth down the ages have been regarded as fickle, ignorant and generally not to be trusted with any serious decisions.
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I hav
Your friend sounds a bit of a pompous ass to be honest - claiming humanity's achievements as his own. I suspect he wears an unsatisfactory moustache.
Hah!
What is it about generations acting like arses to each other. Mine doesn't do that though, mine is the best.
That looks like very smart politics to me from Tim.
Yes, with the Tories likely to be led by a Leaver, probably either Boris or Gove and Labour still led by Corbyn, whose heart was really with Leave, there is a gap in the market for a party to represent Remainers and Farron is already rushing to fill it!
We are now assuming that outside of a referendum on membership of the European Union, the electorate is somehow going to be radically obsessed with the whole EU issue again. They'll end up with less seats than UKIP... and to be fair that'd be an impressive result for the LDs even.
The process for selecting the two candidates to be presented to the party membership starts asap. Over the next 10 days before the recess, ??12 names will be distilled to two. These two will go forward to the prawn cocktail and rubber chicken (shurley Cesar BBQ Chicken) circuit. So, no more business in.parliment in this session or before 5th October.
And you have to assume that the orders for the elected mayors for new combined Authorities, which have to be laid by 4th July to meet next Mays muni elections will also be casualties .....
79% of Leave voters see themselves as English not British, compared to 63% of Remain voters who see themselves as more British than English suggesting the end of the UK is not too far behind, with little real passion now amongst the English Leave majority to keep the union with Scotland http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
They're not a particularly large majority though. I think adopting an English identity is partly an anti-establishment thing, just as is in Wales and Scotland. The left behind need to be offered more of a stake in our society then I'm sure the sense of Britishness could recover.
That's an interesting comment. My own impression was that self-identification as English grew in response to Scottish/Welsh identification - a sort of resentment that only the English were ever called British.
Correct, I think of myself as English now whereas I used to see myself as British (i'm still the better side of 30). I would certainly ascribe that to Scottish and Welsh nationalism/devolution.
The breakup of the UK has been inevitable for some time. Now who was it that was pushing this agenda, and who is now distraught it may come to pass?
I am half Welsh half English and my wife is a Scot so we have always called ourselves British. Mind you our three children always call themselves Welsh
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
With the rush of joiners after the GE (which has not transferred into poll improvement or votes) and now after this, get down to 0% and the LDs will have a party membership to work with at last.
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
Now, now, Benedict, as a likely-to-be-former LD member soon, I really don't think you should be mean to Tim.
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
Over on LDV, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a desire to have a second referendum (I've heard that before somewhere else, perhaps Scott P can enlighten me).
As a LEAVE voter (and there were quite a few of us it seems), it would be remiss of me to suggest it's perfectly possible to be an internationalist and still vote LEAVE. The problem is the EU - it hasn't always been the EU but it has become the EU. That's what I voted against and the mantra that it can be "reformed from within".
I suugest, Mr S, that 6ou have a look at the Liberal Party. And yes, I know the difference between Libs and LD's.
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
He does look a little Mussolini there, as Alanbrooke pointed out
The process for selecting the two candidates to be presented to the party membership starts asap. Over the next 10 days before the recess, ??12 names will be distilled to two. These two will go forward to the prawn cocktail and rubber chicken (shurley Cesar BBQ Chicken) circuit. So, no more business in.parliment in this session or before 5th October.
And you have to assume that the orders for the elected mayors for new combined Authorities, which have to be laid by 4th July to meet next Mays muni elections will also be casualties .....
No more northern powerhouses. Or regional Mayors.
Bunnco. Your man on the spot
Think Chilcot on the 6th July will create headlines
So the Liberal Democrats are now no longer Democrats. It seems they will then need to use illiberal measures to suppress the 17.5 million that voted leave meaning they are no longer Liberal.
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
Now, now, Benedict, as a likely-to-be-former LD member soon, I really don't think you should be mean to Tim.
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
Over on LDV, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a desire to have a second referendum (I've heard that before somewhere else, perhaps Scott P can enlighten me).
As a LEAVE voter (and there were quite a few of us it seems), it would be remiss of me to suggest it's perfectly possible to be an internationalist and still vote LEAVE. The problem is the EU - it hasn't always been the EU but it has become the EU. That's what I voted against and the mantra that it can be "reformed from within".
There are any number of worthy pan-European links we can forge. Tyson mentioned the Erasmus programme. There's CERN, ESA, ITER, ESO, OWL et al. We can and should be working with other European countries. We just don't need to share a flag and a national anthem and have tax harmonisation and on and on.
Basically, I want Europe, every lovely delicious piece of it, without any of the trappings of statehood. That doesn't seem unreasonable or particularly difficult to accomplish. That's my rant .
Tim Farron 'Today I stand for the 48%. Today I stand for the 16 million'
So, that settles it. The snap election will lead to a majority Lib Dem government.
Stranger things have happened...
Not completely impossible but would require most Remainers to unite behind the LDs, while Leavers split between the Tories, Corbyn's Labour and UKIP
And require that after the initial shock and, from some, horror at what is going on, that staying in/reentering Europe becomes the prime motivator for peoples' votes, which to date we've been endlessly told it was not. I wonder if they and the Tories will find common ground north of the border pitching it as the only way to save the Union (I've no idea if the SLDs still care about that, although the Ruth Davidson Experience (feat. others) presumably do.
Yes, it is better to be young in Britain today than to be dying in the Somme. For some reason, that is not a massive consolation given what has just happened.
I've been awake pretty much non-stop since 7am Thursday... And still feeling pretty exhilarated!
Well you should relax a bit - sure you will get a second wind and be exhilarated for much longer. Have had little sleep myself until this afternoon - hope everyone is a bit kinder to each other - the decision is made and to see those eurocrats running around in a furious rage pleases me no end, and that from a remainer
I think there will be a lot of invective and blood-letting this weekend and next week... And then things will settle down.
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...
People are being far too despairing on the left. This belief that what we will see is a right wing government for the few I just don't see. Any Tory who attempts free market/pro immigration will probably be the new Jeb Bush.
Comments
Come back when you guys understand the word democracy. The people spoke...you didn't like the reply. Get over it.
Pah!
"I'se remembers when all this was call centres. Call centres, supermarkets and B&Q. Proper jobs we had then - none of this modern rubbish. We had real work then...."
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
have a good weekend - everything comes to he who waits :-)
hang in there and lets make a go of this nation !
https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=C111GB0D20151004&p=mr+blue+sky+youtube
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/labours-chris-bryant-attacks-ed-miliband-as-he-blames-him-for-de/
We just have to accept that the UK is littered with people who wanted to stay in the EU for all kinds of reasons and we're going to have to be pleasant with them. I admit it's a _teensy_ bit hard with some people at the moment. But we'll get through it.
The North needs massive subsidies. The South has highly restrictive abortion laws - and a welfare system that would involve a massive cut for those on benefits if the North joined...
Whilst there would have been racists, nihilists, reactionaries, narrow-minded bigots and oldies voting to leave (along with many other character types), its vastly unfair to tar over half the country with those brushes. I know many honest, thoughtful and decent people who voted leave. Most if not all of the leavers on here are the same.
The vision is only dark and bleak if we let it become so. Sadly you seem well down that road.
I reluctantly voted remain, but I think a happier, more prosperous country can emerge from a leave vote. But it needs work. Instead of being so negative, use your passion to make it work.
Attack racism when you see it (and don't let stupid cries of 'wacist' put you off). But please don't see it where it doesn't exist.
https://twitter.com/LibDems/status/746322288753131520
We can, I imagine, assume a contest so a similar three months period up to and including the party conference (October 2-5 at Birmingham) plus a week after to return ballots so it looks like in the next couple of weeks.
The successors to Thatcher and Wilson were both chosen from an electorate representing just the respective Parliamentary Parties so the process could be much quicker (as it was with Macmillan before that).
Democracy, bless it, slows the process and while that may be fine in the luxury of Opposition, is it the same in Government ? Cameron is now a lame duck and some of his Cabinet will be eyeing his seat and some may assume their Cabinet days are over whatever happens.
We've had virtual paralysis of Government during the Referendum Campaign - now the Conservatives are going for more self-indulgence with a beauty contest for an electorate the size of the population of Braintree (if you believe some figures) or the size of Worcester (if you believe others).
Stranger things have happened...
Yes, to my relative Aussies were worse than Turks (though both are hateful immigrants). Except when they fit in and I love them, when suddenly they became English roses!
Again the discussion is not about whether the EU will or will not do this or whether it is attractive or not to the EU. Merely that it is possible without offering a Veto to Spain (which itself is not as cut and died as some seem to think given the importance of the CFP to them).
Mr Clegg has a piece in the FT where he says Messrs Cameron and Osborne past euroscepticism was all a pose, so you could assume they just didn't want that kind of a relationship.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=Brexit:+Cameron+and+Osborne+are+to+blame+for+this+sorry+pass
Hopefully, the weekend will calm things. The last thing we need is an Asian sell-off on Monday.
After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
And those oldies you are so quick to criticise are the same men and women - parents and grandparents to the youth - who have worked their lives and paid their taxes to provide a future for the youth of today.
A friend of mine who happened to vote Remain wrote this earlier today.
"Will somebody please define what's meant by the 'elderly' and 'well off' who voted for Brexit?
I have an idea they may be referring to the 'Baby Boomers', some of whom may never have had it so good, but many didn't have it easy and still had to struggle, but who also built up the NHS, worked hard for solutions to Northern Ireland, made advances in the sciences, technology and engineering, spotted global warming and environmental problems and began the fight to repair them, tried their best to keep the world as safe as they could, improved education, started the movements for equality, were idealistic and uncynical, fought the cold war and smashed down the Berlin Wall etc., etc.
And maybe it also includes the wartime generation who struggled through and achieved a whole lot more. And all of whom paid Income tax, National Insurance and then VAT all the time they were required to.
I voted Remain, but if I hear or see another little arsewipe (who my generation has fed, clothed, educated, protected and spoon fed all their life) accuse me and whoever the 'older and 'well off' are of having ruined their future and squandered their birthright, I'll track the ungrateful little sod down and kick their lilly white, under taxed, cossetted arse. They'll have something to be bloody upset about then. And remember, you've got your rights, real or imagined, because we got them for you!
Struggle: an experience considerably more challenging than working out how to con your maiden aunt into buying you a new Xbox for Christmas."
Besides, be honest: if the situation was reversed then there would be many leavers throwing similar strops. In many cases they were having preemptive ones before the vote!
What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries] now for them; no prayers nor bells;
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, –
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.
What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.
Owen, one of my favourite poems which puts the perils of youth in context
and congrats Richard, a day I thought Id never see :-)
Where does that leave them? The W*nkers party?
I do sometimes wonder whether Sturgeon has thought this through. My guess is she has, and she's hoping to bounce the Scottish electorate into independence outside the EU without the implications of the deal being clear to them. After all, the wellbeing of the Scottish people is officially the SNP's second priority behind independence.
Not sure about that picture though.
She had had a stroke thirty minutes before. They met as she was being wheeled into the ambulance. Not the best introduction!
Yet she was kind, sweet, generous and lovely, and I have very fond memories of her.
Another memory: when she was in her nineties and going a little doolally, she said: "I haven't known many men sexually."
In front of her equally-elderly husband, who just nodded. I'm not sure I needed that information.
Families, eh?
*Personally that's not true. I would love to be able to see dinosaurs. But I'm odd.
You are describing a continuing state which the remnant UK would want to be. But it's not their decision. The EU decides if the states are continuing or successor. It's their decision. That's how these things work. If the EU decides there is no continuing state and only two successor states, there is absolutely nothing the remnant UK can do about that.
You can claim to be a continuing state till your blue in the face but without recognition of that status by others, you're not.
Speaking of Tyson, and Mr Meeks come to think of it, the weight of all that moral superiority must be a crushing burden. Rather different to those burdens that weigh on the shoulders of the good citizens of Hull, Bradford, Burnley, Walsall, Doncaster and others that you sneer at as xenophobes and racists. Many of your posts during this campaign have been nauseatingly condescending and just more evidence that you just don't get it.
I've had three or four emails from the Party telling me what a shock it was (so much so, 1000 people have joined today alone. Defeat is really good for membership it seems).
Over on LDV, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a desire to have a second referendum (I've heard that before somewhere else, perhaps Scott P can enlighten me).
As a LEAVE voter (and there were quite a few of us it seems), it would be remiss of me to suggest it's perfectly possible to be an internationalist and still vote LEAVE. The problem is the EU - it hasn't always been the EU but it has become the EU. That's what I voted against and the mantra that it can be "reformed from within".
But, today I just need to vent. I have only just got over the shock of this morning. I met my wife on an Erasmus EU Scheme. My thoughts, plans and hopes for the future never considered the prospect that we would withdraw from Europe, by ourselves. My personal vision for an inclusive, optimistic, future is a bit shattered. Europe for me was much important than party politics.
Today let me be angry. Perhaps tomorrow I can consider building bridges, maybe just a little.
Now, you know, we're relying on the likes of you and Casino to be right!!
Actually, any sudden unexpected political change causes a blip. People are watching Merkel who is both quiet and I suspect silencing the loudmouths. Calm will prevail.
The breakup of the UK has been inevitable for some time. Now who was it that was pushing this agenda, and who is now distraught it may come to pass?
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
Apparently Farage argued before the referendum that a very close result for remain was grounds itself for a rerun (due to unfairness of the campaign I imagine, but there have been lies on both at least), so it's not as though Leavers can argue with a straight face all Leavers would have accepted the matter settled by democratic will if the vote had been the other way.
But are the LDs arguing for us to just not declare article 50 without a second referendum to endorse that, to hold a second referendum to make sure the people meant what they voted for, what?
What is it about generations acting like arses to each other. Mine doesn't do that though, mine is the best.
These two will go forward to the prawn cocktail and rubber chicken (shurley Cesar BBQ Chicken) circuit.
So, no more business in.parliment in this session or before 5th October.
And you have to assume that the orders for the elected mayors for new combined Authorities, which have to be laid by 4th July to meet next Mays muni elections will also be casualties .....
No more northern powerhouses. Or regional Mayors.
Bunnco. Your man on the spot
Basically, I want Europe, every lovely delicious piece of it, without any of the trappings of statehood. That doesn't seem unreasonable or particularly difficult to accomplish. That's my rant
I'm still waiting for Osborne to show his face, personally...