@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
But will anyone care? I have not seen any of the 3 credit ratings agencies country credit ratings have any noticeable effect on borrowing costs. Primarily because they marked buckets of poo as AAA that led to 2008.
An excellent header from Richard. The vote changes everything and nothing. Instead of a vocal minority blaming all our complex long term problems on being in the EU we'll have a vocal minority blaming all our complex long term problems on not being in the EU. It's going to be very uncomfortable for people like me to have to switch from liberal establishment to liberal faragism. However I suspect we'll enjoy it much more in the long run than the folk going in the other direction.
There appear to be some very deluded and nonsensical opinions circulating among supposedly sane people. We have voted out. We are out. We have to look forward and make it work. I suspect that many remain supporters, now that the unwanted has happened, are now fully reconciled with the outcome. It may be good, it may be bad, who knows. But it is. And the sensible remainers will realise that they have opinions in general that can't realistically be ignored. But wandering off down crazy blind alleys is not the way to achieve that.
Remaining was never that good, and a lot of people were clearly motivated by the quiet life and fear of the unknown. They will be rapidly moving on from that.
As a reluctant Remainer I think this is spot on. Let's make the best of it, try and get our relationship with the EU clarified and pray we arent screwed. And think dark thoughts about pensioners and chavs from the north east obviously!!
@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
But will anyone care? I have not seen any of the 3 credit ratings agencies country credit ratings have any noticeable effect on borrowing costs. Primarily because they marked buckets of poo as AAA that led to 2008.
Credit rating mean jack when you control the printing of the currency
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Mid Sussex also voted to remain. Should Mid-Sussex declare itself a separate country too? Furthermore, in bits of Mid-Sussex the majority voted to leave so do those bits get to succeed and form their own states?
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
Were you at the count?
Regrettably not, Mr. White. I used to do duty at elections, poll clerk, or counting, but failing eyesight no means I am not allowed out after dark without a carer.
Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has come out for Scottish Independence on Scotland Tonight.
Independence on the back of not being in the EU is just stupid (even more so if the EU option is not even on the table in the event of a yes vote). The GB will remain comfortably Scotland's most important market and they can realistically anyway expect access to the EU via UK agreements.
We're entering a phase where those arguments will not be particularly useful (whether they are true or not and whether they have the claimed effect or not). The movement is clear, things are shifting.
People like Henry McLeish and JK Rowling reconsidering their position is not immaterial, they will bring votes with them, lots of votes, regardless of the arguments being offered.
Unfortunately the price on the Next Referendum before 2020 has plummeted since I tipped it at 5/1 last night. It is now 4/6.
Is Dan Hannan seriously arguing Britain should keep freedom of movement even after Brexit?
Evan Davis rightly contemptuous.
Davis is wrong (as he almost always is).
Hannan has always been absolutely clear that he wants to keep freedom of movement and access to the single market via an EEA type arrangement. It is the position that Robert Smithson and I have argued for on here as well. There is nothing new except to those who chose not to listen.
By that time, the new PM will have had nearly two years to at least give good indications of where they're taking the UK. If it's looking hopeful, there will be no second Indy vote. Indy is purely a consequence of the general malaise in UK fortunes. If the new PM is taking us down the toilet, Scotland may as well have a go at indy again, and good luck to them.
There appear to be some very deluded and nonsensical opinions circulating among supposedly sane people. We have voted out. We are out. We have to look forward and make it work. I suspect that many remain supporters, now that the unwanted has happened, are now fully reconciled with the outcome. It may be good, it may be bad, who knows. But it is. And the sensible remainers will realise that they have opinions in general that can't realistically be ignored. But wandering off down crazy blind alleys is not the way to achieve that.
Remaining was never that good, and a lot of people were clearly motivated by the quiet life and fear of the unknown. They will be rapidly moving on from that.
It's certainly possible, probable even. But if things do go poorly in the next few months, things could become unpredictable, people may but may not become reconciled to the outcome, and hypothesising upon that may but may not be pointless - I find it hard to believe the EU would let us back in after we make a declaration no matter what we end up thinking, but we know from IndyRef the losers can become galvanised into fighting still harder waiting for new opportunities. Less likely with this one, if things go ok will enough people really care enough to push so hard, but worth exploring what scenarios the parties will be considering and so how they will be pitching themselves - do they campaign to void the outcome, do they say 'let's get on with things but press for as much involvement that we can from outside' or what?
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
My local in Dorset was fantastic tonight.
Politics is rarely discussed there, but the subject came up and everyone was thrilled at the referendum result; retired folk who felt they had been cheated in 1973/75 and finally got a chance to reverse their mistake; local small business people who hate the EU; the young farmers.
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish has come out for Scottish Independence on Scotland Tonight.
Independence on the back of not being in the EU is just stupid (even more so if the EU option is not even on the table in the event of a yes vote). The GB will remain comfortably Scotland's most important market and they can realistically anyway expect access to the EU via UK agreements.
We're entering a phase where those arguments will not be particularly useful (whether they are true or not and whether they have the claimed effect or not). The movement is clear, things are shifting.
People like Henry McLeish and JK Rowling reconsidering their position is not immaterial, they will bring votes with them, lots of votes, regardless of the arguments being offered.
Unfortunately the price on the Next Referendum before 2020 has plummeted since I tipped it at 5/1 last night. It is now 4/6.
There maybe a referendum. Doesn't mean they'll vote for it.
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I can really imagine the stockbrokers absolutely loving moving to the East End...
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
I was angry earlier. Now I'm incandescent, reading the Daily Mail front page. They don't care that people's jobs will be sacrificed on their false England Forever altar. All that matters is they won.
Is Dan Hannan seriously arguing Britain should keep freedom of movement even after Brexit?
Evan Davis rightly contemptuous.
Davis is wrong (as he almost always is).
Hannan has always been absolutely clear that he wants to keep freedom of movement and access to the single market via an EEA type arrangement. It is the position that Robert Smithson and I have argued for on here as well. There is nothing new except to those who chose not to listen.
It's not ridiculous for him to argue that that is a good idea - it's ridiculous given the campaign to think that is what the public thought they were voting for.
@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
But will anyone care? I have not seen any of the 3 credit ratings agencies country credit ratings have any noticeable effect on borrowing costs. Primarily because they marked buckets of poo as AAA that led to 2008.
The whole basis of the Tory offer is being ripped apart. They were elected specifically to keep the AAA rating. Cameron has somehow managed to engineer a situation that leaves the UK worse than he inherited. Quite an achievement
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
Yes, the Union is finished, but we now know that has to be chalked off as another Leave 'price worth paying'.
Scotland was probably going anyway, given the dominance of the SNP. If I'd thought a Remain vote would keep the UK together long term, I'd have voted Remain (though it has taken me by surprise how rapidly Scotland has moved to the exit - Sturgeon is clearly very confident of a win, and signs are she's right)
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
My local in Dorset was fantastic tonight.
Politics is rarely discussed there, but the subject came up and everyone was thrilled at the referendum result; retired folk who felt they had been cheated in 1973/75 and finally got a chance to reverse their mistake; local small business people who hate the EU; the young farmers.
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
Still here, Alastair? Not sodded off to Budapest yet?
Is Dan Hannan seriously arguing Britain should keep freedom of movement even after Brexit?
Evan Davis rightly contemptuous.
Davis is wrong (as he almost always is).
Hannan has always been absolutely clear that he wants to keep freedom of movement and access to the single market via an EEA type arrangement. It is the position that Robert Smithson and I have argued for on here as well. There is nothing new except to those who chose not to listen.
It's not ridiculous for him to argue that that is a good idea - it's ridiculous given the campaign to think that is what the public thought they were voting for.
An early indication of why I have argued that the vote and exit process will fuel UKIP, rather than put them out of business as some (mainly Tories) are hoping.
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
I don't think you are right. Listening to the lunchtime interviews the conclusion I reached was that the EU is actually likely to play things long and relatively difficult, in the hope that the Uk public/political mood changes and we actually decide in the end that leaving is all too difficult. Whilst this seems unlikely and completely contrary to public opinion right now, it seems to me entirely possible that things could look very different in a year or two - particularly if the economic price of the vote has become much more apparent - and especially if there has been an election and political change-about in the meantime. After all, two years (plus!) is a long time in politics, and spinning problems out and waiting for something to turn up is the EU's USP.....
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
But will anyone care? I have not seen any of the 3 credit ratings agencies country credit ratings have any noticeable effect on borrowing costs. Primarily because they marked buckets of poo as AAA that led to 2008.
The whole basis of the Tory offer is being ripped apart. They were elected specifically to keep the AAA rating. Cameron has somehow managed to engineer a situation that leaves the UK worse than he inherited. Quite an achievement
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
And the people who are pleased weren't standing outside number 10 waiting for Cameron to open the door so they could shout at him, or covering themselves in stage blood because apparently leaving the EU is a bit like being killed.
Not at all. London is London. (Candidly, if politics did develop such that the capital sought more independence, I expect that some of the surrounding areas would be clamouring to be redesignated as part of the metropolis - but working with existing lines on a map is usually much less hassle.)
The rest of the country will have to think how it wants to work with London. It can't hope to keep London as its sugar daddy if it isn't going to accommodate London's wishes at critical moments.
Honestly I think it's time you took a step back. London stops being London the minute it isn't the financial, political and media capital of a country with 67m people. Enough of this, I know you were/are a federalist, but the nation has voted.
London, you can leave. All the financial institutions, banks, Russian oligarchs and Arab playboys are more than welcome in the new English capital of Leicester (heart of rural England).
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
And the people who are pleased weren't standing outside number 10 waiting for Cameron to open the door so they could shout at him, or covering themselves in stage blood because apparently leaving the EU is a bit like being killed.
No apparently they were telling British visible minorities "you're next". One fringe anecdote deserves another.
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
48% voted to Remain within the EU, we will now have 2 Leave led parties, UKIP and the Tories and one Leave sympathising-led party, Corbyn-led Labour. That leaves the LDs as the only out and out UK Remain party beyond the Greens
I rather suspect that of that 48 percent many were less than committed to the EU. Though conversely I rather suspect if the referendum was run again tomorrow Remain would win comfortably. Where that leaves a Remain party now I don't know.
I agree with your former comment rather more than your latter one but still many of those 48% will be precisely the voters most distrusting of Boris and Corbyn and most likely to vote LD
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
And when the little England government makes Bristol the new capital, forces the BBC to move there, sets up a new City of Bristol corporation in a square mile, lowers taxes on banks, reduces regulations, forces majority English revenue companies to move their operational and tax headquarters to England? What happens to London? London would be severely diminished by your proposal. Thanks, but no thanks.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
Still here, Alastair? Not sodded off to Budapest yet?
I have indeed sodded off to Budapest. The news came on in the taxi from the airport and the referendum result was the number one story here.
I'm looking forward to swimming, cycling, picking fruit and starting to make walnut brandy. It's very hot and sultry here.
You need to have some degree of commonality of perspective to operate as a single fully fused democratic entity. That seems to be breaking down. The difference in this vote was very stark indeed.
Why should London subsidise people outside London to indulge their own whims at London's expense and against its very clear preferences?
If the two parts see things too differently, they should go their separate ways.
Didn't 40% of the capital vote to Leave. A clear win for Remain, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like 'these two entities are just too different to remain reconciled with each other' territory, the vote
By all means the Independent London people are free to push for it, silly idea as it is, and the already creaky UK state is now even creakier, that's not possible to dispute, but you're acting like every single person in London is devastated by this vote and so a split may be for the best, when it'd take like 90% of those remainers also wanting to leave england now to get a majority. Does that seem likely, that 90% of those wanting to remain would then want to leave that other place they have been rather attached to for several thousand years?
Some, no doubt, though I'd hope not much and we're going to see - if there isn't a party advocating for it already no doubt there will be soon - but you're making some really wild extrapolations of what the city wants based off an entirely different question. And assuming things will remain as they are in terms of how important this question will be for people and how awful they will find the new reality, neither of which is assured (though we're off to a bad start).
In great swathes of inner London the margin was more than 2:1 Remain. All the bits, in fact, that people think of as London.
Mid Sussex also voted to remain. Should Mid-Sussex declare itself a separate country too? Furthermore, in bits of Mid-Sussex the majority voted to leave so do those bits get to succeed and form their own states?
FFS, Mr. Meeks, democracy is what it is. Your side lost. Accept the fact.
Were you at the count?
Regrettably not, Mr. White. I used to do duty at elections, poll clerk, or counting, but failing eyesight no means I am not allowed out after dark without a carer.
And when the little England government makes Bristol the new capital, forces the BBC to move there, sets up a new City of Bristol corporation in a square mile, lowers taxes on banks, reduces regulations, forces majority English revenue companies to move their operational and tax headquarters to England? What happens to London? London would be severely diminished by your proposal. Thanks, but no thanks.
For some reason I find the petition on having a referendum rerun the most depressing when it comes to Scotland' chances of not going Indy - not many from up there signing it, as opposed to other Remain areas. They're already moving on, even the internet warriors won't both signing this to try and stop this.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
The more you use the term "little England" the more I know I was right to vote out. I notice you reserve your contempt for England alone though and not a mention of Wales who resoundingly voted out also. Perhaps Cardiff can declare independence and associated EU affiliation just like your London with only the voters that vote the right way don't you know * touches side of nose*
You are are actually part of the problem and certainly the cause of what just happened today due to this arrogance and ignoring the people who vote. . You most certainly are not part of the solution
As I recall, Denmark originally had some unusual arrangement where it was an EU member, but the Faroes and Greenland (both originally part of Denmark, although the latter is now independent) were not part of the EU. As an aside, Greenland then joined the EU, then left Denmark and the EU, providing the only semi-precedent for what we are about to go through.
I reckon the Scots will be keen to explore whether the reverse can be done - they stay in the EU whilst the rest of the U.K. leaves. Whether this is remotely feasible I have no idea, but even if not, I suggest the rUK needs to respond to the issue thoughtfully if it does not want to give the Scots the ammunition they need to push the swing 10% of their population over to the independence side.
Greenland is not independent from Denmark. It is an autonomous country with home rule but it still belongs to and is ultimately ruled by Denmark. It joined the EEC at the same time as Denmark and left in 1985. When it left the EEC it did not leave Denmark.
There appear to be some very deluded and nonsensical opinions circulating among supposedly sane people. We have voted out. We are out. We have to look forward and make it work. I suspect that many remain supporters, now that the unwanted has happened, are now fully reconciled with the outcome. It may be good, it may be bad, who knows. But it is. And the sensible remainers will realise that they have opinions in general that can't realistically be ignored. But wandering off down crazy blind alleys is not the way to achieve that.
Remaining was never that good, and a lot of people were clearly motivated by the quiet life and fear of the unknown. They will be rapidly moving on from that.
As a reluctant Remainer I think this is spot on. Let's make the best of it, try and get our relationship with the EU clarified and pray we arent screwed. And think dark thoughts about pensioners and chavs from the north east obviously!!
How can it be "spot on"?
"We are out" - actually this will, at best, take two years
"Now that the unwanted has happened" - actually nothing has happened, except a vote as a statement of intent.
"Fully reconciled with the outcome" - actually the implications of the outcome are only just beginning to take shape, let along anyone becoming reconciled with them. I reckon even leavers are going to struggle with the outcome when they see what it looks like.
"Rapidly moving on" - my guess is that some things (like our exit) will move a lot slower than any of us imagine. Other things, like the financial/economic/political fallout from the vote, may move rather quicker!
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
My local in Dorset was fantastic tonight.
Politics is rarely discussed there, but the subject came up and everyone was thrilled at the referendum result; retired folk who felt they had been cheated in 1973/75 and finally got a chance to reverse their mistake; local small business people who hate the EU; the young farmers.
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
Everywhere in Dorset voted Leave didn't it?
Yep. Oddly enough my neck of the woods was one of the closer areas.
I saw the box count for my village which was about 53-4% leave at a rough guess but spoke to three people today who voted Remain but actually said they were happy Leave had won.
Interestingly, across the border in grittier South Somerset the vote for leave was more decisive. It's the working class people (many of them ex Lib-Dem voters) who were strongest for Leave, as elsewhere...
@Politico_Daily: Breaking: Credit rating agency Moody's downgrades UK from 'stable' to 'negative'
But will anyone care? I have not seen any of the 3 credit ratings agencies country credit ratings have any noticeable effect on borrowing costs. Primarily because they marked buckets of poo as AAA that led to 2008.
The whole basis of the Tory offer is being ripped apart. They were elected specifically to keep the AAA rating. Cameron has somehow managed to engineer a situation that leaves the UK worse than he inherited. Quite an achievement
Actually we lost it amongst some agencies before Cameron got into power.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
Still here, Alastair? Not sodded off to Budapest yet?
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
And when the little England government makes Bristol the new capital, forces the BBC to move there, sets up a new City of Bristol corporation in a square mile, lowers taxes on banks, reduces regulations, forces majority English revenue companies to move their operational and tax headquarters to England? What happens to London? London would be severely diminished by your proposal. Thanks, but no thanks.
The BBC has already moved to Manchester so I'm not quite sure why little England would move it again. But perhaps you envisage some form of musical chairs with a broadcaster. It's a novel idea, I admit.
If governments could recreate an economy like London's by fiat, they'd all be doing it. They all try with generally very poor results. Given how muddleheaded the new regime's leading lights seem to be about what Brexit should mean, I can't see them doing better than average.
For some reason I find the petition on having a referendum rerun the most depressing when it comes to Scotland' chances of not going Indy - not many from up there signing it, as opposed to other Remain areas. They're already moving on, even the internet warriors won't both signing this to try and stop this.
Still well short of the Trump petition, but I don't know the proportion these things get in their first day vs more time. I imagine there's a ceiling of numbers able and willing to sign an online petition, but I wonder if it can break the record!
5 years from now, disapproval of the EU will be at 70% or so, as it is in Norway.
Lots of people voted Remain yesterday just because they were apprehensive of change. Once the sky fails to fall in as Cameron and Osborne claimed, that apprehension will melt away.
Yeah I think that's likely. I won't be plain sailing, but I've no doubt we will eventually wonder what the fuss was all about, and only a tiny number of people would seek to reverse the process.
My local in Dorset was fantastic tonight.
Politics is rarely discussed there, but the subject came up and everyone was thrilled at the referendum result; retired folk who felt they had been cheated in 1973/75 and finally got a chance to reverse their mistake; local small business people who hate the EU; the young farmers.
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
Everywhere in Dorset voted Leave didn't it?
Young farmers drinking in their moment of freedom eh? They'll not miss the £3bn of subsidies and grants then? Or the access to a single market?
Well, maybe. I'm at a bit of a loss. Generally I vote LD in a Tory seat, but even though 30% of LD voters did likewise, I feel it would be hypocritical to do that after voting Leave. Corbynite Labour is not an option (I think he's safe from this challenge, and if he isn't McDonnell will probably win, on the grounds he's similar but more competent), the Greens just, no, not an option, UKIP definitely not but the Tories might well just get rid of all the things I did like, and be even more incompetent than Labour to boot (though I hope not, given the rocky start to the new era).
Fair enough, Mr Kle. If we are facing a general restructuring of the party political structures in this country, a lot of people will be at a bit of a loss. Very few people (who think, that is) could agree 100% with everything that a political party stands for. I don´t, certainly.
Like you, I voted for Leave this week, as did 30% of Lib Dem voters, as you say. All will have had their own particular reasons for doing so. There is no way that I support or agree with the likes of Farage, Gove, Johnson, as some of them are now claiming. I voted Leave in spite of them.
A political party comes as a package, and you have to go along the parcel which you feel most comfortable with.
For some reason I find the petition on having a referendum rerun the most depressing when it comes to Scotland' chances of not going Indy - not many from up there signing it, as opposed to other Remain areas. They're already moving on, even the internet warriors won't both signing this to try and stop this.
There has been very little comment on how the Remain vote in Scotland was heavily a proxy vote for a second referendum. This is good evidence for it. I think Sturgeon knows this.
Who is fishing in which pool of voters? I would suggest that the voters are more like 40% want the rate of immigration brought down 50% persuadable - based more on party allegiance 10% europhile For Lib Dems and Labour to focus on the 10% as their core vote is a dead end. If the Conservatives can under a new Leader get substantial support from the 40% they can pull across enough from the persuadable to giuve themselves a very big pool to work with. The challenge is if they do not deliver change on immigration within a year on immigration - in which case UKIP could take off.
48% voted to Remain within the EU, we will now have 2 Leave led parties, UKIP and the Tories and one Leave sympathising-led party, Corbyn-led Labour. That leaves the LDs as the only out and out UK Remain party beyond the Greens
I rather suspect that of that 48 percent many were less than committed to the EU. Though conversely I rather suspect if the referendum was run again tomorrow Remain would win comfortably. Where that leaves a Remain party now I don't know.
Potentially well positioned if things start to go pear-shaped, I would have thought?
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
Why no talk of a national unity government? Get serious leaders in from all sides and the national parliaments, agree panels of negotiators and what a post-Brexit world might look like. Then have a GE to allow the proposal to be supported in principle before invoking Article 50
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
Well, quite. I have a lot of time for Dan - or had until now - but that is a disgraceful position. Is he now claiming to have had nothing to do with those leaflets and the campaign?
The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is the governing body that will meet weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave ... Dan Hannan MEP ...
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
And when the little England government makes Bristol the new capital, forces the BBC to move there, sets up a new City of Bristol corporation in a square mile, lowers taxes on banks, reduces regulations, forces majority English revenue companies to move their operational and tax headquarters to England? What happens to London? London would be severely diminished by your proposal. Thanks, but no thanks.
The BBC has already moved to Manchester so I'm not quite sure why little England would move it again. But perhaps you envisage some form of musical chairs with a broadcaster. It's a novel idea, I admit.
If governments could recreate an economy like London's by fiat, they'd all be doing it. They all try with generally very poor results. Given how muddleheaded the new regime's leading lights seem to be about what Brexit should mean, I can't see them doing better than average.
It's the margins that matter, the new little England capital doesn't need to replace London entirely, it only needs to be 20-30% of it to severely diminish our great city. As I said, you haven't thought this through very well. It is a stupid idea unworthy of someone of your intellect.
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
As I recall, Denmark originally had some unusual arrangement where it was an EU member, but the Faroes and Greenland (both originally part of Denmark, although the latter is now independent) were not part of the EU. As an aside, Greenland then joined the EU, then left Denmark and the EU, providing the only semi-precedent for what we are about to go through.
I reckon the Scots will be keen to explore whether the reverse can be done - they stay in the EU whilst the rest of the U.K. leaves. Whether this is remotely feasible I have no idea, but even if not, I suggest the rUK needs to respond to the issue thoughtfully if it does not want to give the Scots the ammunition they need to push the swing 10% of their population over to the independence side.
Greenland is not independent from Denmark. It is an autonomous country with home rule but it still belongs to and is ultimately ruled by Denmark. It joined the EEC at the same time as Denmark and left in 1985. When it left the EEC it did not leave Denmark.
Thanks, interesting, and I stand corrected!
From Scotland's viewpoint, however, the pertinent fact is that it appears to be possible for some parts of the same country to be inside and some outside the EU.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
Free movement. If you qualified you'd be mad not to.
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
Well, quite. I have a lot of time for Dan - or had until now - but that is a disgraceful position. Is he now claiming to have had nothing to do with those leaflets and the campaign?
The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is the governing body that will meet weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave ... Dan Hannan MEP ...
Also, I see Juncker wants to get started immediately on Brexit. Well hold on there - there is as I understand it no mechanism to expel us. The only process whereby we can leave is Article 50 WHICH WE HAVE TO START by notifying the European Council of our intent to leave.
Before we do so, we could get started talking trade deals in principle with non-EU countries. I'd propose mirror tariffs where we set tarrifs at the level our partners do for baskets of linked products - if they go low, we go low. Then we'd have draft deals good to go once Article 50 completes.
Why no talk of a national unity government? Get serious leaders in from all sides and the national parliaments, agree panels of negotiators and what a post-Brexit world might look like. Then have a GE to allow the proposal to be supported in principle before invoking Article 50
I actually think inaction allows the logic of the situation to play out of its own accord. I'm optimistic that a consensus will emerge in Scotland and Northern Ireland on the way forwards. If the EU plays ball on allowing Scotland to stay in as an independent nation then that eliminates the need for a load more navel gazing about federalising the UK.
We may also find that the EU itself suddenly acquires a will for more radical reform.
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
I'm not sure you understand how London (or any major city) as an economy works, a large proportion of it's high-value employment comes from the commuters that you intend to build a wall between.
Yeah but they aren't "real Londoners" so he presumably doesn't care.
I'd not stop them coming and working in London. There are plenty of examples of cross-border commuters round the world. If little England wanted to put up more restrictive borders, that's its business but I'd have thought they needed the tax revenues more than the border controls.
One for the little England government to ponder.
Still here, Alastair? Not sodded off to Budapest yet?
I have indeed sodded off to Budapest. The news came on in the taxi from the airport and the referendum result was the number one story here.
I'm looking forward to swimming, cycling, picking fruit and starting to make walnut brandy. It's very hot and sultry here.
Walnut brandy? Sounds interesting. How do you make that? Surely a walnut has very little juice?
Why no talk of a national unity government? Get serious leaders in from all sides and the national parliaments, agree panels of negotiators and what a post-Brexit world might look like. Then have a GE to allow the proposal to be supported in principle before invoking Article 50
Their partisan interests go against the idea of forming a national unity government.
Sturgeon need only seek consultation on the process to declare out so she can choose the best time to call a new referendum (I know it;s not technically in her power, whatever), nothing else matters and she has no interest in what post-Brexit might look like. Corbyn wouldn't share a platform with Tories in trying to persuade people to vote Remain, he wouldn't do so afterwards Farron is hoping to stage a recovery, working with the Tories again even in that situation would undermine it, and even more than Labour wants the Tories to own any problems Wales? I have no idea Tories - probably worried about a new general election, wouldn't want to appear incompetent and reliant on the others to govern right now.
But it's a thoughtful idea. Though how would the GE show in principle support for a proposal - presumably if the parties were working together to agree negotiation panels, they would all be supportive of the proposal, so no matter who you voted for would support it before invoking Article 50?
Also, I see Juncker wants to get started immediately on Brexit. Well hold on there - there is as I understand it no mechanism to expel us. The only process whereby we can leave is Article 50 WHICH WE HAVE TO START by notifying the European Council of our intent to leave.
Before we do so, we could get started talking trade deals in principle with non-EU countries. I'd propose mirror tariffs where we set tarrifs at the level our partners do for baskets of linked products - if they go low, we go low. Then we'd have draft deals good to go once Article 50 completes.
Good news. Delay invoking Article 50. Then we can stay in the EU even after voting to leave.
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
Wasn't it heavily postulated that Cameron had absolutely no plans for a Yes vote as well? He has form.
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
Well, quite. I have a lot of time for Dan - or had until now - but that is a disgraceful position. Is he now claiming to have had nothing to do with those leaflets and the campaign?
The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is the governing body that will meet weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave ... Dan Hannan MEP ...
That's politics blah blah blah. But the delicious irony is that it's the Hannan persuasion who have inherited Brexit. I can't wait to hear the fabled WWC damned by Leavers as vile racists when they compain about all these immigrants from Mexico.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Also, I see Juncker wants to get started immediately on Brexit. Well hold on there - there is as I understand it no mechanism to expel us. The only process whereby we can leave is Article 50 WHICH WE HAVE TO START by notifying the European Council of our intent to leave.
Before we do so, we could get started talking trade deals in principle with non-EU countries. I'd propose mirror tariffs where we set tarrifs at the level our partners do for baskets of linked products - if they go low, we go low. Then we'd have draft deals good to go once Article 50 completes.
Good news. Delay invoking Article 50. Then we can stay in the EU even after voting to leave.
Hah, yes. A dick move to keep them waiting, but if they cannot force us, just never actually make the declaration at all, it's the Brexit sword of Damocles, constantly waiting to be made, cause we had this referendum, you know, and we are going to do it eventually.
Why no talk of a national unity government? Get serious leaders in from all sides and the national parliaments, agree panels of negotiators and what a post-Brexit world might look like. Then have a GE to allow the proposal to be supported in principle before invoking Article 50
We may also find that the EU itself suddenly acquires a will for more radical reform.
For others, yes. They've been pretty clear the old negotiated deal is dead and there will not be another one, so while others will get a deal to prevent them following us, we won't benefit from any radical reform. Otherwise everyone would vote to leave just to see what the offer from the EU would be.
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
Wasn't it heavily postulated that Cameron had absolutely no plans for a Yes vote as well? He has form.
He had a plan. He would resign. It is not his business to sort out the mess.
It now looks like we would lose Scotland [ the oil price will recover ] and, incredibly, we could be unifying Ireland. Who would have thunk that ?
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
I don't think you are right. Listening to the lunchtime interviews the conclusion I reached was that the EU is actually likely to play things long and relatively difficult, in the hope that the Uk public/political mood changes and we actually decide in the end that leaving is all too difficult. Whilst this seems unlikely and completely contrary to public opinion right now, it seems to me entirely possible that things could look very different in a year or two - particularly if the economic price of the vote has become much more apparent - and especially if there has been an election and political change-about in the meantime. After all, two years (plus!) is a long time in politics, and spinning problems out and waiting for something to turn up is the EU's USP.....
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
Well the formal timescale is two years from the article 50, and no-one seems in a hurry to send that at the moment (Cameron's speech suggests October at the earliest). But since the waters are uncharted no-one really knows, and if it suits either side to spin things out, it could very easily take a lot longer. I just think it will suit a lot of people to spin things out - after just 24 hours we're seeing stories of people who are already having second thoughts - so just imagine the public mood if there's a recession etc. for the next two years...
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
Wasn't it heavily postulated that Cameron had absolutely no plans for a Yes vote as well? He has form.
Leave themselves, though, should surely have done some scenario planning at least. Boris and Gove looked like rabbits in headlights. It was hardly the most reassuring sight given what they have coming up.
@DanHannanMEP: A lot of Remainers are now raging at me because I *don't* want to cut immigration sharply. There really is no pleasing some people.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
That is absolutely extraordinary disingenuousness from Hannan. He knows full well exactly what the Leave campaign was promising, to precisely those voters.
Extraordinary that the predictions of resentment and anger at broken promises are already coming true, much quicker than any of us could have imagined.
I have heard that the Northern Irish are applying for Ireland/EU passports they are entitled to. Not the usual suspects, the Nationalists but Protestants.
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
The level of Leave unpreparedness is extraordinary and terrifying. It may have involved talking to some experts, I guess, but surely it would have been worth it. This was never a game, but Boris and Gove today looked like it was the first time they realised how serious this all is.
Wasn't it heavily postulated that Cameron had absolutely no plans for a Yes vote as well? He has form.
He had a plan. He would resign. It is not his business to sort out the mess.
It now looks like we would lose Scotland [ the oil price will recover ] and, incredibly, we could be unifying Ireland. Who would have thunk that ?
Neither likely though the fact that we're talking about it is significant enough.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
I would like Scotland to stay but, if this goes ahead, I could no longer argue for it.
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
I think many Scots would say tonight that it is us in england who has done the "going".
I have to hand it to Cameron, his cant negotiate until October is REALLY pissing the EU elite off
festina lente
With regret I have to say this is a master stroke of genius negotiation that could not have been pulled off before the referendum and his resigning. Had it been possible, then he could (would) have won it.
The EU nabobs want a fast negotiation, so they either have to give us most of what we want or have us hang around like a bid smell creating discontent among the underlings
genius - why couldnt Dave have negotiated like that ?
I don't think you are right. Listening to the lunchtime interviews the conclusion I reached was that the EU is actually likely to play things long and relatively difficult, in the hope that the Uk public/political mood changes and we actually decide in the end that leaving is all too difficult. Whilst this seems unlikely and completely contrary to public opinion right now, it seems to me entirely possible that things could look very different in a year or two - particularly if the economic price of the vote has become much more apparent - and especially if there has been an election and political change-about in the meantime. After all, two years (plus!) is a long time in politics, and spinning problems out and waiting for something to turn up is the EU's USP.....
And even if the strategy doesn't work and we do eventually leave, it gives the EU more time to adjust to the new reality, and discourages other countries from thinking that leaving is an easy thing to do.
How long can the UK stall for, before the wait for Article 50 becomes an implicit REMAIN? Would electing a pro-REMAIN majority HoC, which goes no further in departure negotiations, count as abrogating the referendum?
Well the formal timescale is two years from the article 50, and no-one seems in a hurry to send that at the moment (Cameron's speech suggests October at the earliest). But since the waters are uncharted no-one really knows, and if it suits either side to spin things out, it could very easily take a lot longer. I just think it will suit a lot of people to spin things out - after just 24 hours we're seeing stories of people who are already having second thoughts - so just imagine the public mood if there's a recession etc. for the next two years...
I did say we'd vote Leave and maybe then never end up Leaving. There's still a chance, but I think the Europeans would need some persuading. They're clearly very unhappy with how this has been handled by the UK government and by the Leave campaign.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
24th June 2016, forever to be remembered as the day the UK died. After all these centuries its heartbreaking. All the people who fought and died for it, bestriding the world as an empire. Now to end with its destroyers haggling over its twitching corpse.
And all the people who fought and died against it. Recent history has seen the rebirth of many Eastern European nations. Who are you to deny the Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh or English that right?
Comments
People like Henry McLeish and JK Rowling reconsidering their position is not immaterial, they will bring votes with them, lots of votes, regardless of the arguments being offered.
Unfortunately the price on the Next Referendum before 2020 has plummeted since I tipped it at 5/1 last night. It is now 4/6.
Hannan has always been absolutely clear that he wants to keep freedom of movement and access to the single market via an EEA type arrangement. It is the position that Robert Smithson and I have argued for on here as well. There is nothing new except to those who chose not to listen.
Politics is rarely discussed there, but the subject came up and everyone was thrilled at the referendum result; retired folk who felt they had been cheated in 1973/75 and finally got a chance to reverse their mistake; local small business people who hate the EU; the young farmers.
A fantastic sense of relief mixed with a lingering disbelief that this had really happened.
@jamesmatesitv: @DanHannanMEP I suspect they may be raging at you cos yr Leave campaign clearly said it did. Was there a false prospectus being offered?
That is indeed the issue he now has to deal with
https://twitter.com/27khv/status/746451449811374081
I love that sub. "Cameron: Farewell to the turkey PM who voted for Christmas". What a legacy.
Surely the Tories are better keeping him in place till he loses Scotland so whoever takes over the party doesn't have to resign within a year?
One for the little England government to ponder.
In 2014 Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.
In 2016, the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU.
I'm looking forward to swimming, cycling, picking fruit and starting to make walnut brandy. It's very hot and sultry here.
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215
* touches side of nose*
You are are actually part of the problem and certainly the cause of what just happened today due to this arrogance and ignoring the people who vote. . You most certainly are not part of the solution
With that....Good night.
"We are out" - actually this will, at best, take two years
"Now that the unwanted has happened" - actually nothing has happened, except a vote as a statement of intent.
"Fully reconciled with the outcome" - actually the implications of the outcome are only just beginning to take shape, let along anyone becoming reconciled with them. I reckon even leavers are going to struggle with the outcome when they see what it looks like.
"Rapidly moving on" - my guess is that some things (like our exit) will move a lot slower than any of us imagine. Other things, like the financial/economic/political fallout from the vote, may move rather quicker!
Takes the sting out of London dominating everything, and solves the issue of whether London is A ) sucking the UK dry or B ) subsidising us all.
Stops the other home nations resenting England so much as 'England' will have a parliament somewhere else and be smaller.
Gives England the parliament it unfairly lacks.
I saw the box count for my village which was about 53-4% leave at a rough guess but spoke to three people today who voted Remain but actually said they were happy Leave had won.
Interestingly, across the border in grittier South Somerset the vote for leave was more decisive. It's the working class people (many of them ex Lib-Dem voters) who were strongest for Leave, as elsewhere...
Might need a visa to get back though
Definitely g'night !
If governments could recreate an economy like London's by fiat, they'd all be doing it. They all try with generally very poor results. Given how muddleheaded the new regime's leading lights seem to be about what Brexit should mean, I can't see them doing better than average.
Surely the Tories are better keeping him in place till he loses Scotland so whoever takes over the party doesn't have to resign within a year?
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Like you, I voted for Leave this week, as did 30% of Lib Dem voters, as you say. All will have had their own particular reasons for doing so. There is no way that I support or agree with the likes of Farage, Gove, Johnson, as some of them are now claiming. I voted Leave in spite of them.
A political party comes as a package, and you have to go along the parcel which you feel most comfortable with.
Potentially well positioned if things start to go pear-shaped, I would have thought?
Can anyone enlighten us why would they want to do that ?
The Vote Leave Campaign Committee is the governing body that will meet weekly to set the campaign strategy for Vote Leave
...
Dan Hannan MEP
...
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/campaign
From Scotland's viewpoint, however, the pertinent fact is that it appears to be possible for some parts of the same country to be inside and some outside the EU.
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
Before we do so, we could get started talking trade deals in principle with non-EU countries. I'd propose mirror tariffs where we set tarrifs at the level our partners do for baskets of linked products - if they go low, we go low. Then we'd have draft deals good to go once Article 50 completes.
We may also find that the EU itself suddenly acquires a will for more radical reform.
Sturgeon need only seek consultation on the process to declare out so she can choose the best time to call a new referendum (I know it;s not technically in her power, whatever), nothing else matters and she has no interest in what post-Brexit might look like.
Corbyn wouldn't share a platform with Tories in trying to persuade people to vote Remain, he wouldn't do so afterwards
Farron is hoping to stage a recovery, working with the Tories again even in that situation would undermine it, and even more than Labour wants the Tories to own any problems
Wales? I have no idea
Tories - probably worried about a new general election, wouldn't want to appear incompetent and reliant on the others to govern right now.
But it's a thoughtful idea. Though how would the GE show in principle support for a proposal - presumably if the parties were working together to agree negotiation panels, they would all be supportive of the proposal, so no matter who you voted for would support it before invoking Article 50?
Cherry on the cake...
It now looks like we would lose Scotland [ the oil price will recover ] and, incredibly, we could be unifying Ireland. Who would have thunk that ?
Anyway, I've a Scottish grandfather and would look to dual-passport.
Extraordinary that the predictions of resentment and anger at broken promises are already coming true, much quicker than any of us could have imagined.
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/746330414592188416