UK government policy blocks off migration from the rest of the world. It was the UK government that decided your highly-skilled cousin should be denied a visa.
To some degree, unlimited migration is not politically or economically sustainable so the government has no choice but to limit non-EU migration since no limits or restrictions can be places on EU migration. Government policy reflects the concerns of the majority. Among Asian people that I know, it seemed stupid that we choose to block highly skilled migration in favour of unskilled migration from the EU. Most realise that the only way to level the playing field for EU and non-EU migrants is to leave, no government will ever have a policy of unrestricted global migration.
Just noticed in Corbyn interview on BBC: 'I campaigned on a party position'.
So clearly not his own position. I know we knew that, but nice of him to provide confirmation.
He believes in democracy so he suppressed his own opinions and went along with the will of the party. That is honourable.
Tim Farron had it right "With politicians of all parties working together, one of the things that stood out in this campaign, was Jeremy Corbyn’s bizarre refusal to share a platform in the face of the greatest challenge our country was faced in a generation.
I have stood alongside Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman, Chukka Umuna, Andy Burnham and Sadiq Kahn.
Great progressive Labour politicians that I admire – forced to campaign with their hands tied behind their back because of short sighted demands from their Leader’s office.
Where was the leader of that party?
Even when the future of our country depended on him, he could not bring himself to reach across the aisle.
When the call went out for help, Jeremy Corbyn refused to answer.
The once-proud working class Labour vote has abandoned Corbyn in droves.
Great Labour cities have been driven into the arms of UKIP and Nigel Farage.
It is clearer than ever that Jermyn Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
The most wealthy older people probably voted Remain.
I think the very wealthiest probably went for Brexit. The rich but not megarich almost unanimously "remain".
The young voted "remain" regardless of wealth - much more a values vote.
Further evidence that the pollsters are f**ked. For ages I've been saying before you look at a poll you need to know who commissioned it.
Oh, and despite several predictions to the contrary, we seem to have survived a day of non political union with Moldova without war, famine and Kent full of migrant camps.
Interesting bet for PBers to price up, who will step down first:
Corbyn Farage Cameron
There is another party who's name and party leader I can't remember.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
Jonathan I have disagreed with you on many occasions but you have in that one post summed up the problems around the EU far better than anyone else I have so far read.
I think Cameron is an honourable man and gave the referendum that the Labour Party denied us. He stood for what he believed in and rightly so. On this occasion he and Remain could not carry the country. He has retired with dignity and history I believe will be kind simply because he accepts the democratic process.
Leave have reacted with equal dignity and decorum.
I think some of the Remainers on this site should pause for thought, consider what they post and accept that democracy has been expressed by the people of this great country even if the result is not to your liking.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
I'm afraid this is a curious mixture of ultra-right ideology.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
What did you expect. The votes are in, the result determined.
Now they have to avoid rocking the boat because they have their own elections in mind, they don't want an extra crisis in hand.
So the remain campaign shouldn't have campaigned on such fiction. They deservedly lost after peddling such rubbish.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
God you must have the most boring life ever.
You ve never done anything, follows the rules, do what your told, FFS man get out and have a life.
Just fucking go out now and smash a window for the hell of it.
@Rachael_Swindon: Afternoon @margarethodge As someone that paid to elect Jeremy Corbyn less than a year ago I am disgusted by your motion. Resign immediately.
UK government policy blocks off migration from the rest of the world. It was the UK government that decided your highly-skilled cousin should be denied a visa.
To some degree, unlimited migration is not politically or economically sustainable so the government has no choice but to limit non-EU migration since no limits or restrictions can be places on EU migration. Government policy reflects the concerns of the majority. Among Asian people that I know, it seemed stupid that we choose to block highly skilled migration in favour of unskilled migration from the EU. Most realise that the only way to level the playing field for EU and non-EU migrants is to leave, no government will ever have a policy of unrestricted global migration.
I don't think the mood music after LEAVE is conducive to higher Asian immigration at all, at all. After all, people think they're losing their Britain and they don't recognise their own country and they want it back.
After a morning nap, I was at work this afternoon. Some buyers remorse visible. Several visibly upset nurses in particular, and others rather subdued by what they had wrought.
Half the country was going to be disappointed today, but at least we have fairly safe jobs and an extra £100 million per week to come into the NHS.
Off to a leaving do for one of our EU doctors tonight, shall sound out the mood there. Hopefully not too depressed, they are a great bunch.
Have a good evening, and please reassure your colleagues that the sometimes intemperate language used about immigration during the campaign was definitely not directed at hard working healthcare professionals. Farage won't be the next PM, and even if he were we would still need doctors and nurses.
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
It depends on what you mean by "they". 63% of the people who voted wanted them kicked out in 2015....
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
You reap what you sow. Your party, as well as the Tories and other mainstream politicos have bought the country to this. You pushed and pushed us middle aged, miserable white racists into it. I hope you enjoy what you've done.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
God you must have the most boring life ever.
You ve never done anything, follows the rules, do what your told, FFS man get out and have a life.
Just fucking go out now and smash a window for the hell of it.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
No wonder you like Italy. You're a fascist.
*I don't want to be ageist* *goes off on drunken ageist rant*.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
I'm afraid this is a curious mixture of ultra-right ideology.
Labour was not founded as an ethnic movement.
I
Your answer illustrates the problem.
Ultra right?
Ethnic movement?
Read on to my next post - that was cut off accidentally.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
And in a few years the Remain firebrands would have had some more experience of life - and switched to Leave. No one is born old.
Can I get something clear and apologies to anyone who answered me already. I understood that Cameron said he would invoke Article 50 on day one. Was this not a 'timetable?'. He is now not doing this. Did he actually say he would do it on day 1?
Does it matter? He is now not doing it, which I think is the sensible thing.
Yes, it does matter. Because even in resigning, Cameron finds himself incapable of keeping a promise. His career has died as it has lived, as that of an inveterate liar.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Second order effect. If you can't control one source of immigration, you necessarily have to squeeze the one you can, particularly if you have an 'ambition' to reduce overall immigration.
Non-EU migration was higher than EU migration, but carry on...
More people moved here from a part of the world with billions of people in it than from one with a few hundred million? How about that.
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
It depends on what you mean by "they". 63% of the people who voted wanted them kicked out in 2015....
I'm part of the 63%. While I was content with Ed becoming PM, I wasn't particularly upset to see the Tories stay in power. But I get your point about FPTP. Perhaps it has had its day.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
There isn't enough room in the lifeboats! Women, children and vaguely human looking countries first!
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds like Farage and Gove might get their wish - social, political and economic meltdown on a continental scale.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
UK government policy blocks off migration from the rest of the world. It was the UK government that decided your highly-skilled cousin should be denied a visa.
To some degree, unlimited migration is not politically or economically sustainable so the government has no choice but to limit non-EU migration since no limits or restrictions can be places on EU migration. Government policy reflects the concerns of the majority. Among Asian people that I know, it seemed stupid that we choose to block highly skilled migration in favour of unskilled migration from the EU. Most realise that the only way to level the playing field for EU and non-EU migrants is to leave, no government will ever have a policy of unrestricted global migration.
I don't think the mood music after LEAVE is conducive to higher Asian immigration at all, at all. After all, people think they're losing their Britain and they don't recognise their own country and they want it back.
Like so many things at the moment we'll have to wait and see what happens.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds improbable all could - playing it up to get the others on board with actually doing something this time
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Gosh. This could be very interesting. Does anyone know the key dates for when we'll know if anyone is holding a referendum?
I certainly think the PB comments demographic deserves to exult in its victory, but if there is any magnanimity, please think for a moment about those of us who are in the under-50s, who by and large wanted to stay, who are really going to be carrying the can for the boomers and the Osborne deficits and the incoming higher dependency ratios. You got yours, now please do your bit to make the UK outside the EU a good place for the under-50s. That's all.
I think that's harsh. I appreciate you're feeling in a bad way. My daughter is 23. I want the best for her, and by extension, other young people.
I'm sure you'll dismiss this, but most older people care more about their kids & grandchildren than themselves.
By and large the young have better qualifications than their elders (1st comp sci/MSc SW engineering here though), but we've the compensatory experience and some of us remember life before the EU/EEC.
I don't wish to be harsh and I don't dismiss good-faith attempts to engage with the concerns of most of the young about lost opportunities and their self-image, which as you suggest is somewhat different to the pre-EU generations. In effect, young Britons have had a major part of their self-image (Europeans from birth) taken away today. I merely suggest that we should now see a GE 2020 result that compensates young people for all that we have to bear, be it the boomers, the crisis, the Osborne policies, or the higher burden of pensions in a UK with fewer young workers. We try and would be happy to be proved wrong, but we don't believe in free owls, that older people will happily accept a property price crash, or pay for free education once the kids are out of the system.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
A couple of days ago you were boasting about how you would be enjoying the misery of Leavers after the vote.
I would hope that everyone could work together to reform Britain for the better.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds improbable all could - playing it up to get the others on board with actually doing something this time
Tbh even one would be disastrous for the EU. And if a third country leaves then the floodgates will probably open.
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
It depends on what you mean by "they". 63% of the people who voted wanted them kicked out in 2015....
Probably more - if old Labour turned up or possibly less if you think it means actual votes.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
No wonder you like Italy. You're a fascist.
*I don't want to be ageist* *goes off on drunken ageist rant*.
Ah, Internet, don't ever change.
We have had some friction between generations at work today. I know this is not an original thought but you get massive cognitive dissonance when you point out to today's 20 somethings that today's 60 somethings who voted Leave are, churn aside, the same 20 somethings who voted In 41 years ago. Maybe, just maybe, the oldies have better judgement in this matter.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
Sorry mate that can equally have been said when I just missed the last referendum at 17 and suffered for the next 40 odd years du e to that decision over which I had no control.
Don't be so arrogant that you think this is the first time...it ain't . Deal with it.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
It depends on what you mean by "they". 63% of the people who voted wanted them kicked out in 2015....
Probably more - if old Labour turned up or possibly less if you think it means actual votes.
Bottom line is that our current voting system is broken. Leave have fed us all this nonsense about sovereignty and control, when the truth is that the majority of people live in safe seats where the election campaign passes them by and their MP was chosen by five people in a room and has a job for life, whether they like it or not.
Hearing IDS banging on about how the referendum is great because "unlike normal elections, every vote counts" last night was the last straw....
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
A couple of days ago you were boasting about how you would be enjoying the misery of Leavers after the vote.
I would hope that everyone could work together to reform Britain for the better.
and Italy for that matter :-)
still AR could we now be at that long desired point where Osborne just disappears ?
roller coaster of emotions in the last 24 hours. voted leave but went to bed before any results came in thinking the country would narrowly vote remain, but if so just crack on with life as before. woke to find we'd voted out. great, but then a dip into anxiety because this is where the hard work really starts. project fear wasn't all bluff. disappointed cameron want's to leave quite so quickly. but throughout the day feeling more and more positive that this is a really good day for the country and we can deal with anything and everything life throws at us.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
This is the same Germany which was denouncing NATO manoeuvres in Poland as US sabre rattling. Not a very reliable partner.
Do we know who was continuing to keep laying Leave last night ?
Probably some capitalists in London who couldn't believe or understand what the early results showed. How ironic they have turned into socialists and contributed to the distribution of wealth.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
Let them. So long as there's NATO and our 'five eyes' and nuclear weapons arrangements with the US remain, what's the problem with them cementing stronger ties with common allies like Germany?
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
One group of Tory remainers watching the speech on TV jeered out loud when a rather pale Johnson said that leaving Europe needn’t mean pulling up the drawbridge, that this epic victory for Nigel Farage could somehow “take the wind out of the sails” of anyone playing politics with immigration. Too late for all that now, one said.
The scariest possibility, however, is that he actually meant it. That like most of Westminster, Johnson always imagined we’d grudgingly vote to stay in the end, that he too missed the anger bubbling beneath the surface and is now as shocked as anyone else by the enormity of has happened.
Has my friend Roger been on here today? How did he assess the remain advertising campaign?
Well I can give you my opinion.
It was crap. As I said referendums usually become referendums on the government.
Using the government as a source of campaign literature was convenient but suicidal when Cameron and Osborne are so unpopular.
The so called project fear doesn't work when you have no credibility and no popularity, and no one in the Remain campaign had any of those.
What message can you deliver when the messenger is Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Brown, Clegg, most of the Labour PLP, the SNP ect ect ? The vast majority of the public hate them, so they voted against the messenger.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
No wonder you like Italy. You're a fascist.
*I don't want to be ageist* *goes off on drunken ageist rant*.
Ah, Internet, don't ever change.
We have had some friction between generations at work today. I know this is not an original thought but you get massive cognitive dissonance when you point out to today's 20 somethings that today's 60 somethings who voted Leave are, churn aside, the same 20 somethings who voted In 41 years ago. Maybe, just maybe, the oldies have better judgement in this matter.
The oldie Leavers were just too busy wearing flares and smoking pot back then. If they'd have taken the trouble to read Ted Heath's speeches, or even listen to Enoch, they'd have known precisely what they were voting for. Today's Brexit chaos is a result of their laziness.
a curious of mixture of radical right ideology and left populism, that should have said there before being cut off.
You're harking back to a supposed era of ethnocentric true socialism, but this era never existed. It's a concept itself created by both post -1960s ethnic identity politics and neo left populism.
Look I dont care whether you are black white or green.
We have a culture, come and live among us by all means, but if you do you integrate and assimilate, you learn our language, observe the core values of our culture and make a reasonable effort to fit in.
In core ways not trivial ways. I welcome the diversity of your cuisine but dont tell me what animals to eat. Similarly I welcome the joyous colours of your cultures beautiful clothes, but dont expect to go around masked like a bank robber and be respected.
Basically, you will be made welcome, there is as much we can learn from you as you learn from us but dont take the piss and bite the hand we extend to you.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Isn't that the country most like the UK that isn't the UK?
If the EU gets it's act together it will come back with a two tier system of European Union (eurozone plus applicants) and European Associate Trading Partners (UK, EFTA, EU not applying for EZ).
* Contributions between blocs linked to percentages of trade surplus * Free Movement compulsory for EU, optional for the remainder
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
It depends on what you mean by "they". 63% of the people who voted wanted them kicked out in 2015....
Probably more - if old Labour turned up or possibly less if you think it means actual votes.
Bottom line is that our current voting system is broken. Leave have fed us all this nonsense about sovereignty and control, when the truth is that the majority of people live in safe seats where the election campaign passes them by and their MP was chosen by five people in a room and has a job for life, whether they like it or not.
Hearing IDS banging on about how the referendum is great because "unlike normal elections, every vote counts" last night was the last straw....
For the third consecutive election, in 2015 the majority who bothered to vote elected NO-ONE...
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Labourlist commenters predictably (but rightly, this time) disdainful of this latest attempt to oust Corbyn.
"Moderate" Labour MPs are going to need a much better rationale for launching a coup than just wanting to not admit to themselves that they misjudged the public mood on the EU.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds like Farage and Gove might get their wish - social, political and economic meltdown on a continental scale.
I don't really know these labour people, the only one I liked in the leadership campaign was Kendall. but it seems they don't like centrists anymore. I've actually always voted for the winner in a general election, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Cameron. When the conservative party went rightwards I had Blair (holier than thou but better than the other options), Major was my favourite, Cameron close behind. I'm not used to being on the losing side nationally and it's strange. I take the least dangerous position but this time it lost. And Cameron has gone to be replaced by someone who I have spent months opposed to, So I have nowhere to go. Lib Dem I suppose but not going to count. If Johnson or whoever want to win it's swing voters like me he now needs to persuade, but after this, how? He's lost me now.
I'm at the tail end of the baby boomers and I'm ashamed that, as a generation, we've always been mollycoddled, arrogant and entitled. I don't think some ever grew up. The sight of us patronising younger people sayimg we are voting in their interest? Give me a break, it's self interest as it has always been. We have the pensions, we had the opening up of education and grants, we had a rapidly growing consumer society, we've had it all. Can we not let go now? Trump is one as well and, yes Clinton too. The last gasp of the generation that left things worse for their children. I am truly ashamed and I'm sorry.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Linky?
oh piss off and look it up yourself.
if you dont want to believe it dont
I wasn't doubting you Alan, calm down. I'm just very tired and very lazy at the moment. Thanks for letting us know.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Linky?
oh piss off and look it up yourself.
if you dont want to believe it dont
I wasn't doubting you Alan, calm down. I'm just very tired and very lazy at the moment. Thanks for letting us know.
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
No wonder you like Italy. You're a fascist.
*I don't want to be ageist* *goes off on drunken ageist rant*.
Ah, Internet, don't ever change.
We have had some friction between generations at work today. I know this is not an original thought but you get massive cognitive dissonance when you point out to today's 20 somethings that today's 60 somethings who voted Leave are, churn aside, the same 20 somethings who voted In 41 years ago. Maybe, just maybe, the oldies have better judgement in this matter.
The oldie Leavers were just too busy wearing flares and smoking pot back then. If they'd have taken the trouble to read Ted Heath's speeches, or even listen to Enoch, they'd have known precisely what they were voting for. Today's Brexit chaos is a result of their laziness.
So they were right to realise the error of their ways and vote Brexit then. Glad we have that sorted
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds like Farage and Gove might get their wish - social, political and economic meltdown on a continental scale.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Linky?
oh piss off and look it up yourself.
if you dont want to believe it dont
I wasn't doubting you Alan, calm down. I'm just very tired and very lazy at the moment. Thanks for letting us know.
Has my friend Roger been on here today? How did he assess the remain advertising campaign?
Well I can give you my opinion.
It was crap. As I said referendums usually become referendums on the government.
Using the government as a source of campaign literature was convenient but suicidal when Cameron and Osborne are so unpopular.
The so called project fear doesn't work when you have no credibility and no popularity, and no one in the Remain campaign had any of those.
What message can you deliver when the messenger is Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Brown, Clegg, most of the Labour PLP, the SNP ect ect ? The vast majority of the public hate them, so they voted against the messenger.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds improbable all could - playing it up to get the others on board with actually doing something this time
Well the best result is the creation of two rival free trade areas in europe, the EU rump led by Germany, and a new Community led by Britain.
Since euroskeptisism is so strong and rising in most EU countries, encouragement from the UK and a provision of a better alternative than the EU would probably lead many EU countries choosing a British led loose Community over the EU.
The competition between the two rival blocks over who is economically, socially, technologically, and democratically superior will be very healthy.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
South Korea announced it wants a free trade deal with the UK today
Linky?
oh piss off and look it up yourself.
if you dont want to believe it dont
To be honest Mr Alan it would have been more fun had it been North Korea though .....I would have feared for Tysons well being in such circumstances.
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds improbable all could - playing it up to get the others on board with actually doing something this time
Well the best result is the creation of two rival free trade areas in europe, the EU rump led by Germany, and a new Community led by Britain.
Since euroskeptisism is so strong and rising in most EU countries, encouragement from the UK and a provision of a better alternative than the EU would probably lead many EU countries choosing a British led loose Community over the EU.
The competition between the two rival blocks over who is economically, socially, technologically, and democratically superior will be very healthy.
I'd prefer an EU rump led by France, and we get Germany .
@kiranstacey: I look fwd to Boris campaigning on his slogan of being "the only politician in Britain willing to admit to being pro-immigration".
Pro immigration doesn't mean pro unlimited immigration. I think most people in the country recognise the benefit of managed immigration (which does NOT mean let companies hire cheap non-EU labour pretending they are valuable and necessary for them.)
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
Let them. So long as there's NATO and our 'five eyes' and nuclear weapons arrangements with the US remain, what's the problem with them cementing stronger ties with common allies like Germany?
There isn't a problem to my mind. Both they and we can do what we want. I'm really commenting on the accuracy of Obama's "back of the queue" remark. While not literally true, it is certainly the case that we are less important to them today than yesterday
@SkyNewsBreak: German finance ministry says there are concerns France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands & Hungary could follow UK's lead in leaving #EUref
Sounds improbable all could - playing it up to get the others on board with actually doing something this time
Well the best result is the creation of two rival free trade areas in europe, the EU rump led by Germany, and a new Community led by Britain.
Since euroskeptisism is so strong and rising in most EU countries, encouragement from the UK and a provision of a better alternative than the EU would probably lead many EU countries choosing a British led loose Community over the EU.
The competition between the two rival blocks over who is economically, socially, technologically, and democratically superior will be very healthy.
I'd prefer an EU rump led by France, and we get Germany .
I think we would be ruled by the Germans and end up back at step one again. I would prefer France, the Netherlands, and central european countries like Poland in our camp, let Germany get the basket cases.
Labourlist commenters predictably (but rightly, this time) disdainful of this latest attempt to oust Corbyn.
"Moderate" Labour MPs are going to need a much better rationale for launching a coup than just wanting to not admit to themselves that they misjudged the public mood on the EU.
Got to laugh at Margaret Hodge of all people launching it! After her record on Islington Council, and Bliar appointing her as Childrens Minister after her history, I could scarcely think of anyone so ill equipped to launch it.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
We're not exactly at the front of the queue either. US European policy has been to tie the UK into its European initiatives. British membership of the EU was an important part of that policy. It's gone by the board and US foreign policy is just one of the things that will need adjusting. They will pivot more to Germany.
Let them. So long as there's NATO and our 'five eyes' and nuclear weapons arrangements with the US remain, what's the problem with them cementing stronger ties with common allies like Germany?
There isn't a problem to my mind. Both they and we can do what we want. I'm really commenting on the accuracy of Obama's "back of the queue" remark. While not literally true, it is certainly the case that we are less important to them today than yesterday
We've talked about this a few times recently.
The US thinks that Europe is freeloading. They've drawn down their European forces (around 60k troops from all services in Germany now) and have pivoted to the Pacific.
I think we've been less important to the US both as a nation, and as a leader of the bloc for some time now. Still useful, just probably not strategic in the way that Japan is.
Comments
I have stood alongside Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman, Chukka Umuna, Andy Burnham and Sadiq Kahn.
Great progressive Labour politicians that I admire – forced to campaign with their hands tied behind their back because of short sighted demands from their Leader’s office.
Where was the leader of that party?
Even when the future of our country depended on him, he could not bring himself to reach across the aisle.
When the call went out for help, Jeremy Corbyn refused to answer.
The once-proud working class Labour vote has abandoned Corbyn in droves.
Great Labour cities have been driven into the arms of UKIP and Nigel Farage.
It is clearer than ever that Jermyn Corbyn has more concern for his own position in his own party, rather than his country.
The young voted "remain" regardless of wealth - much more a values vote.
Oh, and despite several predictions to the contrary, we seem to have survived a day of non political union with Moldova without war, famine and Kent full of migrant camps.
Interesting bet for PBers to price up, who will step down first:
Corbyn
Farage
Cameron
There is another party who's name and party leader I can't remember.
I think Cameron is an honourable man and gave the referendum that the Labour Party denied us. He stood for what he believed in and rightly so. On this occasion he and Remain could not carry the country. He has retired with dignity and history I believe will be kind simply because he accepts the democratic process.
Leave have reacted with equal dignity and decorum.
I think some of the Remainers on this site should pause for thought, consider what they post and accept that democracy has been expressed by the people of this great country even if the result is not to your liking.
Ultra right?
Ethnic movement?
You ve never done anything, follows the rules, do what your told, FFS man get out and have a life.
Just fucking go out now and smash a window for the hell of it.
@Rachael_Swindon: Afternoon @margarethodge As someone that paid to elect Jeremy Corbyn less than a year ago I am disgusted by your motion. Resign immediately.
@robfordmancs: The New Politics:
You've been hard working servant of Barking for 22 years.
I paid £3 last year.
I matter more. https://t.co/FYYGirNTNB
Ah, Internet, don't ever change.
Oh, fuck it
I would hope that everyone could work together to reform Britain for the better.
Labour will continue to say immigration is good and wonder why they lose votes in droves.
Anybody still not getting it?
Don't be so arrogant that you think this is the first time...it ain't . Deal with it.
Hearing IDS banging on about how the referendum is great because "unlike normal elections, every vote counts" last night was the last straw....
still AR could we now be at that long desired point where Osborne just disappears ?
And about time too.
woke to find we'd voted out. great, but then a dip into anxiety because this is where the hard work really starts. project fear wasn't all bluff. disappointed cameron want's to leave quite so quickly.
but throughout the day feeling more and more positive that this is a really good day for the country and we can deal with anything and everything life throws at us.
PS, have a stab at replying in your own words, as tricky as that may seem.
The scariest possibility, however, is that he actually meant it. That like most of Westminster, Johnson always imagined we’d grudgingly vote to stay in the end, that he too missed the anger bubbling beneath the surface and is now as shocked as anyone else by the enormity of has happened.
@GdnPolitics: A pyrrhic victory? Boris Johnson wakes up to the costs of Brexit https://t.co/LOlFiJfJLZ
It was crap.
As I said referendums usually become referendums on the government.
Using the government as a source of campaign literature was convenient but suicidal when Cameron and Osborne are so unpopular.
The so called project fear doesn't work when you have no credibility and no popularity, and no one in the Remain campaign had any of those.
What message can you deliver when the messenger is Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Brown, Clegg, most of the Labour PLP, the SNP ect ect ?
The vast majority of the public hate them, so they voted against the messenger.
We have a culture, come and live among us by all means, but if you do you integrate and assimilate, you learn our language, observe the core values of our culture and make a reasonable effort to fit in.
In core ways not trivial ways. I welcome the diversity of your cuisine but dont tell me what animals to eat. Similarly I welcome the joyous colours of your cultures beautiful clothes, but dont expect to go around masked like a bank robber and be respected.
Basically, you will be made welcome, there is as much we can learn from you as you learn from us but dont take the piss and bite the hand we extend to you.
Good news though
* Contributions between blocs linked to percentages of trade surplus
* Free Movement compulsory for EU, optional for the remainder
Will the conservative party pledge to cut immigration at the next GE?
YES/NO
if you dont want to believe it dont
"Moderate" Labour MPs are going to need a much better rationale for launching a coup than just wanting to not admit to themselves that they misjudged the public mood on the EU.
I'm at the tail end of the baby boomers and I'm ashamed that, as a generation, we've always been mollycoddled, arrogant and entitled. I don't think some ever grew up. The sight of us patronising younger people sayimg we are voting in their interest? Give me a break, it's self interest as it has always been. We have the pensions, we had the opening up of education and grants, we had a rapidly growing consumer society, we've had it all. Can we not let go now? Trump is one as well and, yes Clinton too. The last gasp of the generation that left things worse for their children. I am truly ashamed and I'm sorry.
youll have to look for a new avatar
Since euroskeptisism is so strong and rising in most EU countries, encouragement from the UK and a provision of a better alternative than the EU would probably lead many EU countries choosing a British led loose Community over the EU.
The competition between the two rival blocks over who is economically, socially, technologically, and democratically superior will be very healthy.
To be honest Mr Alan it would have been more fun had it been North Korea though .....I would have feared for Tysons well being in such circumstances.
I would prefer France, the Netherlands, and central european countries like Poland in our camp, let Germany get the basket cases.
The US thinks that Europe is freeloading. They've drawn down their European forces (around 60k troops from all services in Germany now) and have pivoted to the Pacific.
I think we've been less important to the US both as a nation, and as a leader of the bloc for some time now. Still useful, just probably not strategic in the way that Japan is.
However I would expect a sharp rise in share prices next week to counterbalance the devaluation last night.
O that poor Greece could have devalued