Yes, it does matter. Because even in resigning, Cameron finds himself incapable of keeping a promise. His career has died as it has lived, as that of an inveterate liar.
No
He can't do it now because he has resigned. Had he not resigned, he could have done it "immediately" which is next week at the meeting
Resigned? Who is the occupant of 10 Downing Street until October?
He has handed in his notice but still has the job.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
@RupertMyers: Many people would vote for and campaign for a new Labour leader to win a general election on a platform of keeping Britain in the EU.
They really, really wouldn't.
Deja vu of Labour's GE loss.
They really are irredeemable.
This London groupthink of "Labour should ignore the will of the people" is coming from exactly the same people who thought it was inconceivable that Leave would win in the first place.
Very few Labour Leave voters would vote for such a Labour party, while atleast half of the very wealthy Remain vote would prioritise their pocketbooks and still vote Tory even if they agreed with Labour more on the EU.
You really don't think there are Tory votes for grabs after all this? I don't even think Labour would need to go down the New Labour route to attract Tory voters, just someone safe, inoffensive and competent could be seen as an antidote to a possible Boris led government.
No, I don't see it at all. Remember, it wasn't just the traditional Labour vote who went Leave - the lower middle class swing vote who decide elections also did. Nuneaton, Cannock Chase, Basildon, and all the like -- all Leave landslides.
Anyone who thinks Labour can afford to write off most of their heartland seats AND most of the traditional marginals, all in some ridiculous hope of winning over Remain voters in true-blue Guildford, Mole Valley and Oxfordshire (all places where Labour didn't come close even in 1997) needs their head examining.
Anyone who thinks that Labour heartlands and Tory marginals would go for Jeremy Corbyn over someone like Dan Jarvis needs to be certified. Corbyn has no connection at all with either.
I know next to nothing about Dan Jarvis, but, judging by his Twitter feed, he was enthusiastically cheerleading for Remain -- again, the very fact he was doing that rules him out for me, as it shows how little feel he has for public opinion. If he called something like this so catastrophically wrong, he would do likewise as leader.
Rubbish. A 4pt win nationally effected by hundreds of people who usually don't vote.
Some of whom are now changing their minds according to BBC News. What a monumental disaster.
Shocking vox pops from Hartlepool on radio 5. Leave voters blaming 'the immigrants ruining the nhs', 'I don't know why I voted leave' etc. To hell with the political correctness here, and I'm happy saying this as I'm from a similar background and know it well, but these people are thick, self destructive, intolerant. I escaped and I never want anything to do with them again; that they can spread that destruction nationally is a sick, sick joke. I don't want them pandered to, I want them to suffer. Not PC I know, but the nice comfy middle class here don't have to deal with them, just needing to use their ignorance from the other end of the country. Shame on you. Get out there and see what you have wrought.
There is a certain irony that the folks that are now being feted and lionised by the PB Leavers are the very same people they were castigating 12 months ago as feckless benefit scroungers only after free "stuff". An amazing transformation, be interesting to see how long it lasts!
Can I get something clear and apologies to anyone who answered me already. I understood that Cameron said he would invoke Article 50 on day one. Was this not a 'timetable?'. He is now not doing this. Did he actually say he would do it on day 1?
There is a meeting next week. He said he would do it at that meeting, but that was before he resigned. He will now not do it at that meeting, although it sounds like the other leaders are pressing for it
If I were Dave I'd save that little joy for Boris and Mike. After all, they were the ones who wanted it
@Louiseaileen70: BBG head: "GERMAN & FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTERS TO PRESENT PAPER TO COLLEAGUES FROM 6 FOUNDING EU MEMBERS ON SAT SUGGESTING A FLEXIBLE EU"
@RupertMyers: Many people would vote for and campaign for a new Labour leader to win a general election on a platform of keeping Britain in the EU.
That could be an inspired move. They'd surely get 96% of all the Remainers plus Tribal Labour. We'd be in Blair landslide territory and beyond.
Big question for the Tory Remainers: Would you vote for a Chuka-led centrist Labour party standing on such a ticket?*
*You can safely assume in such a scenario that the Corbynites and Momentum group will have been exorcised from anywhere near the leadership
No. The Leave vote must be respected not overturned as one promise in an election manifesto.
I see Elmbridge voted heavily Remain.
It did indeed, and although Dom Raab fought an honourable non factional campaign, he must be one of the very few Tory Leave MPs who were so at odds with the views of their constituents, who voted almost 60-40 to stay.
Another is St Albans and Anne Main. Very high turnout (82.4%) (3rd highest after Gibraltar and Hart) and 62.7% Remain (36th highest)
@RupertMyers: Many people would vote for and campaign for a new Labour leader to win a general election on a platform of keeping Britain in the EU.
They really, really wouldn't.
Deja vu of Labour's GE loss.
They really are irredeemable.
This London groupthink of "Labour should ignore the will of the people" is coming from exactly the same people who thought it was inconceivable that Leave would win in the first place.
Very few Labour Leave voters would vote for such a Labour party, while atleast half of the very wealthy Remain vote would prioritise their pocketbooks and still vote Tory even if they agreed with Labour more on the EU.
You really don't think there are Tory votes for grabs after all this? I don't even think Labour would need to go down the New Labour route to attract Tory voters, just someone safe, inoffensive and competent could be seen as an antidote to a possible Boris led government.
No, I don't see it at all. Remember, it wasn't just the traditional Labour vote who went Leave - the lower middle class swing vote who decide elections also did. Nuneaton, Cannock Chase, Basildon, and all the like -- all Leave landslides.
Anyone who thinks Labour can afford to write off most of their heartland seats AND most of the traditional marginals, all in some ridiculous hope of winning over Remain voters in true-blue Guildford, Mole Valley and Oxfordshire (all places where Labour didn't come close even in 1997) needs their head examining.
Anyone who thinks that Labour heartlands and Tory marginals would go for Jeremy Corbyn over someone like Dan Jarvis needs to be certified. Corbyn has no connection at all with either.
I know next to nothing about Dan Jarvis, but, judging by his Twitter feed, he was enthusiastically cheerleading for Remain -- again, the very fact he was doing that rules him out for me, as it shows how little feel he has for public opinion. If he called something like this so catastrophically wrong, he would do likewise as leader.
Rubbish. A 4pt win nationally effected by hundreds of people who usually don't vote.
So dosent count because they are untermenschen who dont normally vote?
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
I think with non-EU migrants the polls got it completely wrong as well. Loads of plaxes with Asian and African migrants/second generation have swung to Leave. Clearly we're all just xenophobic racists though.
On the lower rungs of society the usual tactic is to divide and turn them against each other. It's the same here. Good immigrants vs Bad immigrants. Of course, it helps if you target those who have a vote rather than those who don't. It's deplorable, divide, divide, divide....
Absolute rubbish. The EU creates divisions by blocking off migration from the rest of the world. That's why non-EU migrants swung for leave, my cousin, was denied a visa to work for a pharmaceutical company even though it was a high wage job that requires skills that he has. He has ended up applying for a similar job for a Swiss competitor. In what world is it right that we should deny entry to a highly skilled Indian migrant who will add to the economy and have unlimited migration for unskilled migrants who require a lot of state assistance in the form of tax credits, housing benefits and child tax credits?
@DPJHodges: Labour source: "Corbyn has now completely lost the confidence of the shadow cabinet".
If he holds on till Friday, you can still get 2 on Betfair
This is really pathetic. They're just casting around for excuses to avoid confronting that they themselves completely misread the public mood.
If a leadership contest is triggered in these circumstances, I would go from 3rd-pref'ing him to enthusiastically supporting him this time.
Do Labour actually have any policies at the moment? I'm trying to understand what their current pitch is. Or are we still running under the generic banner of 'anti-austerity'?
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
The only council area in the West Midlands with more than 35% graduates was the only one to vote Remain: Warwick. I was banking on qualifications being one of the main determinants with my spreadsheet so pleased to see it confirmed. Pretty much the same thing with Rushcliffe in the East Midlands.
Andy, your spreadsheet was fantastic. Very well done indeed. Chapeau.
It was indeed. It helped me to a modest profit of several hundred quid last night.
Thanks indeed AndyJS, I owe you a drink if we are ever at the same PB tavern.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
Are you a Labour voter? Then why are you telling them to pay less attention to black people and more attention to, erm "traditional BRITISH" people, which I guess is a special type of white people?
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
The only council area in the West Midlands with more than 35% graduates was the only one to vote Remain: Warwick. I was banking on qualifications being one of the main determinants with my spreadsheet so pleased to see it confirmed. Pretty much the same thing with Rushcliffe in the East Midlands.
Andy, your spreadsheet was fantastic. Very well done indeed. Chapeau.
It was indeed. It helped me to a modest profit of several hundred quid last night.
Thanks indeed AndyJS, I owe you a drink if we are ever at the same PB tavern.
The funny thing is I only put it together a few weeks ago as an experiment in using census data to predict results. Didn't expect it to be useful.
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
Both sides were talking bollocks, that campaign was fighting fire with fire.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
I'm not sure I agree about your last part there, Southam. I don't believe the majority of post-2001 Labour MPs are hugely in touch with Labour voters.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
Confession time. This £100 / £350 million for the NHS issue. I delivered leaflets saying 'Give £350 million a week to the NHS' and I knew they were bollocks.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
I certainly didn't like the Leave campaign's focus on the NHS. I'd have preferred them to say "this is your money, and your elected representatives should decide how it is spent." But I guess the Leave campaign identified the NHS as something that people connect with.
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Shocking vox pops from Hartlepool on radio 5. Leave voters blaming 'the immigrants ruining the nhs', 'I don't know why I voted leave' etc. To hell with the political correctness here, and I'm happy saying this as I'm from a similar background and know it well, but these people are thick, self destructive, intolerant. I escaped and I never want anything to do with them again; that they can spread that destruction nationally is a sick, sick joke. I don't want them pandered to, I want them to suffer. Not PC I know, but the nice comfy middle class here don't have to deal with them, just needing to use their ignorance from the other end of the country. Shame on you. Get out there and see what you have wrought.
There is a certain irony that the folks that are now being feted and lionised by the PB Leavers are the very same people they were castigating 12 months ago as feckless benefit scroungers only after free "stuff". An amazing transformation, be interesting to see how long it lasts!
And now left leaners are castigating the very same "underclass". I love tribal politics!
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
The only council area in the West Midlands with more than 35% graduates was the only one to vote Remain: Warwick. I was banking on qualifications being one of the main determinants with my spreadsheet so pleased to see it confirmed. Pretty much the same thing with Rushcliffe in the East Midlands.
FWIW I don't object to the result. That's democracy. It is what it is, you live with it and build from there. Could have gone either way. There were good arguments on both sides.
What I strongly object to is the campaign, which was dreadful from start to finish. It was ill informed, negative, full of hyperbole, misinformation and deliberately sowed division. It is irresponsible that what happens next was never worked out. The deal, was not a deal.
Britain is in a bad state today because of the campaign. All those who ran it should (like the PM) take responsibility and consider their position. But first they have to clear up the mess they leave behind. They should certainly not prosper personally.
On and BTW culpability extends outside the UK. Juncker and co should go. This is their defeat just as much as Camerons. They wont of course. Which is kind of the point.
Well said, Sir. The campaign was a serious low point in British politics. At least the PM was enough of an honourable gentleman to fall on his sword afterwards, a few others need to follow his example.
It got 72% of the population to vote.
Sure it was angry and passionate and raw but where bullshit was peddled bullshit was rebutted and the jury of the British people looked at the evidence, refused to be cowed and turned out in the millions to give their verdict.
This is the greatest day in the history of these isles since the day in 1940 that Hitler called off his invasion after he couldnt break the RAF.
a) Increase exports and close the trade deficit, and
b) Increase inflation to the 2% target specified to the B of E by the Government
And c) put up prices, especially those relating to fuel.
The EU minimum 5% VAT on home boiler oil can now be removed.
A big saving for rural households.
No, it can't. We are still an EU member state. Rural households are also more dependent on cars, which need fuel.
The EU will find it impossible to implement its rules in the UK given the time it takes to go to Court.
So the UK will be a country that does not respect the agreements it signs. That should do wonders for our ability to negotiate a good Brexit deal and to get trade deals done with other countries, as well as for our reputation in the markets.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
I think with non-EU migrants the polls got it completely wrong as well. Loads of plaxes with Asian and African migrants/second generation have swung to Leave. Clearly we're all just xenophobic racists though.
On the lower rungs of society the usual tactic is to divide and turn them against each other. It's the same here. Good immigrants vs Bad immigrants. Of course, it helps if you target those who have a vote rather than those who don't. It's deplorable, divide, divide, divide....
Absolute rubbish. The EU creates divisions by blocking off migration from the rest of the world. That's why non-EU migrants swung for leave, my cousin, was denied a visa to work for a pharmaceutical company even though it was a high wage job that requires skills that he has. He has ended up applying for a similar job for a Swiss competitor. In what world is it right that we should deny entry to a highly skilled Indian migrant who will add to the economy and have unlimited migration for unskilled migrants who require a lot of state assistance in the form of tax credits, housing benefits and child tax credits?
You could have had more high-skilled visas within the EU.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
I'm afraid this is a curious mixture of ultra-right ideology.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
What did you expect. The votes are in, the result determined.
Now they have to avoid rocking the boat because they have their own elections in mind, they don't want an extra crisis in hand.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
I'm not sure I agree about your last part there, Southam. I don't believe the majority of post-2001 Labour MPs are hugely in touch with Labour voters.
The ones who think that Corbyn is not up to being Labour leader clearly are.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
Are you a Labour voter? Then why are you telling them to pay less attention to black people and more attention to, erm "traditional BRITISH" people, which I guess is a special type of white people?
No I am telling them to pay attention to people and stop divisively obsessing over whether they are pink or brown and categorising them into oppressors and oppressed depending on whether they are pink or brown. You may think you are progressive but so did the likes of Botha and Verwoed. They are PEOPLE.
And no Im not a Labour voter despite being a union member for over thirty years. Listen to Hoey Mann and Field instead of the Gramascian North London fools and I might be.
Some of whom are now changing their minds according to BBC News. What a monumental disaster.
It really doesn't have to be a disaster. It'll only be one if we make it one.
The EU and Europhiles failed to make a positive case for the union for many years, and scarcely tried during the campaign. That's a shame, but the decision has been made.
Indeed. Nothing wrong with the the elderly, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who voted Remain. All my Boston-based immediate family did, as did I. Although one of the more clever ones has an 'ology.
a curious of mixture of radical right ideology and left populism, that should have said there before being cut off.
You're harking back to a supposed era of ethnocentric true socialism, but this era never existed. It's a concept itself created by both post -1960s ethnic identity politics and neo left populism.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
Thats right. What people tend to wrongly do is assign non voters in places like Stoke as Labour voters. If they didn't vote labour they are not labour voters!
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
I think with non-EU migrants the polls got it completely wrong as well. Loads of plaxes with Asian and African migrants/second generation have swung to Leave. Clearly we're all just xenophobic racists though.
On the lower rungs of society the usual tactic is to divide and turn them against each other. It's the same here. Good immigrants vs Bad immigrants. Of course, it helps if you target those who have a vote rather than those who don't. It's deplorable, divide, divide, divide....
Absolute rubbish. The EU creates divisions by blocking off migration from the rest of the world. That's why non-EU migrants swung for leave, my cousin, was denied a visa to work for a pharmaceutical company even though it was a high wage job that requires skills that he has. He has ended up applying for a similar job for a Swiss competitor. In what world is it right that we should deny entry to a highly skilled Indian migrant who will add to the economy and have unlimited migration for unskilled migrants who require a lot of state assistance in the form of tax credits, housing benefits and child tax credits?
UK government policy blocks off migration from the rest of the world. It was the UK government that decided your highly-skilled cousin should be denied a visa.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
A few more would have done if we didn't have such an insipid, throwback donkey for a leader.
Jezza is sending round robin emails. He is digging in for the fight ahead.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
You've made a couple of good posts in succession. A lot of people don't care much about accountability, but I do.
Juncker et al pay lip service to the idea, but my belief is that they don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the EU as currently constituted.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
Yes, I agree. Us Remainers need to be honest that the EU itself was sometimes our worst enemy in making the case for it. There needs to be a sea change in people being held accountable, whether its Brexit, the Euro or corruption. Yes, it would help euroscepticism to publicise these things, but it would make Europe stronger and more appealing in the long run.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
A few more would have done if we didn't have such an insipid, throwback donkey for a leader.
Jezza is sending round robin emails. He is digging in for the fight ahead.
Oh, he'll stay in place, of course he will. The membership would prefer him in charge than a Labour government - Boris rather than a Blairite.
How about we become an associate partner member of the EU?
Stage 3 of grief - bargaining. Just depression to go before we get to acceptance and we can move on.
Bargaining sometimes works. Given we've voted out and out is out, probably better, if they are to make a pitch, to term it associate partner of the EU, not associate partner member of the EU. The latter sound like we;re still in, which we could not accept now and they couldnot offer, the former could just mean (who knows at this point) a reasonable deal post EU is going to be sought.
I certainly think the PB comments demographic deserves to exult in its victory, but if there is any magnanimity, please think for a moment about those of us who are in the under-50s, who by and large wanted to stay, who are really going to be carrying the can for the boomers and the Osborne deficits and the incoming higher dependency ratios. You got yours, now please do your bit to make the UK outside the EU a good place for the under-50s. That's all.
After a morning nap, I was at work this afternoon. Some buyers remorse visible. Several visibly upset nurses in particular, and others rather subdued by what they had wrought.
Half the country was going to be disappointed today, but at least we have fairly safe jobs and an extra £100 million per week to come into the NHS.
Off to a leaving do for one of our EU doctors tonight, shall sound out the mood there. Hopefully not too depressed, they are a great bunch.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
Outside of London I don't think so. And I'm sure that if Corbyn was allowed to support Leave from the Labour PLP, it would have been a very clear majority for Leave among Labour voters.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
On the lower rungs of society the usual tactic is to divide and turn them against each other. It's the same here. Good immigrants vs Bad immigrants. Of course, it helps if you target those who have a vote rather than those who don't. It's deplorable, divide, divide, divide....
Absolute rubbish. The EU creates divisions by blocking off migration from the rest of the world. That's why non-EU migrants swung for leave, my cousin, was denied a visa to work for a pharmaceutical company even though it was a high wage job that requires skills that he has. He has ended up applying for a similar job for a Swiss competitor. In what world is it right that we should deny entry to a highly skilled Indian migrant who will add to the economy and have unlimited migration for unskilled migrants who require a lot of state assistance in the form of tax credits, housing benefits and child tax credits?
UK government policy blocks off migration from the rest of the world. It was the UK government that decided your highly-skilled cousin should be denied a visa.
Second order effect. If you can't control one source of immigration, you necessarily have to squeeze the one you can, particularly if you have an 'ambition' to reduce overall immigration.
Second order effect. If you can't control one source of immigration, you necessarily have to squeeze the one you can, particularly if you have an 'ambition' to reduce overall immigration.
Non-EU migration was higher than EU migration, but carry on...
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
A few more would have done if we didn't have such an insipid, throwback donkey for a leader.
Jezza is sending round robin emails. He is digging in for the fight ahead.
Oh, he'll stay in place, of course he will. The membership would prefer him in charge than a Labour government - Boris rather than a Blairite.
SO- I think Jezza is a goner. And, I have instinct for these things. Do you recall last night, I was posting early on that I had a bad feeling about Brexit.
God knows who will succeed him....but by next week we'll have 2 leadership contests on the go.
a) Increase exports and close the trade deficit, and
b) Increase inflation to the 2% target specified to the B of E by the Government
And c) put up prices, especially those relating to fuel.
Oil was down 5% on the day and Sterling is down about about 8% on the day, oil prices won't go up a lot, and we've yet to see what the deal is going to be, if it is EFTA with some restrictions on free movement I expect most of that loss to reverse, some of it has already unwound because the shock has worn off.
That deal is a while off.
Yes - most of the currency specialists expect a weakening £ to continue during the long period of uncertainty about to begin.
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
SO are you honestly saying Mandelson you, and the vast majority of Labour MPs are in touch with the the red vote leave Hartlepool type voter ? At least Corbyn sceptical 7 out of 10 for the EU, is more honest and in tune than their assessment. If you were in their position, the chance to do over Cameron, Mandelson and New Lab/Con is tempting.
What of it? We don't calculate how many years a voter may have to live on average and weight their vote accordingly, and how else would you solve the 'problem' of older people not living to see consequences. Should we take away the votes of people at a GE already within 5 years of life expectancy?
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
A few more would have done if we didn't have such an insipid, throwback donkey for a leader.
Jezza is sending round robin emails. He is digging in for the fight ahead.
Corbyn is not the most able, I disagree with a lot of his views but at least he unlike Wilson and every leader since Kinnock (with the exception of Smith) is the beginning of the solution rather than a continuation of the problem
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
Is there anyone who isn't on the receiving end of your lashing and smiling?
I certainly think the PB comments demographic deserves to exult in its victory, but if there is any magnanimity, please think for a moment about those of us who are in the under-50s, who by and large wanted to stay, who are really going to be carrying the can for the boomers and the Osborne deficits and the incoming higher dependency ratios. You got yours, now please do your bit to make the UK outside the EU a good place for the under-50s. That's all.
Most of us in that age group have adult children, for myself it's precisely because I would like to see affordable housing, free education, proper training, prosperity spread outside of the South East, accountable politicians and a secure financial future for my descendants that I voted leave.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
I think with non-EU migrants the polls got it completely wrong as well. Loads of plaxes with Asian and African migrants/second generation have swung to Leave. Clearly we're all just xenophobic racists though.
Surely it is good to see that our recent arrivals are starting to integrate?
I certainly think the PB comments demographic deserves to exult in its victory, but if there is any magnanimity, please think for a moment about those of us who are in the under-50s, who by and large wanted to stay, who are really going to be carrying the can for the boomers and the Osborne deficits and the incoming higher dependency ratios. You got yours, now please do your bit to make the UK outside the EU a good place for the under-50s. That's all.
I think that's harsh. I appreciate you're feeling in a bad way. My daughter is 23. I want the best for her, and by extension, other young people.
I'm sure you'll dismiss this, but most older people care more about their kids & grandchildren than themselves.
By and large the young have better qualifications than their elders (1st comp sci/MSc SW engineering here though), but we've the compensatory experience and some of us remember life before the EU/EEC.
I've just been looking at some details. The North voted more heavily to Leave than the South (excluding London) by 57% to 52%.
The Conservative-voting Stockbroker Belt around London, and down the M3 and M4 favoured Remain.
And just look at how many Labour heartland authorities voted to Leave, sometimes by huge margins; Sheffield, Wigan, Rotherham, Barnsley, South Tyneside, Luton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Middlesborough, Warrington, Wolverhampton, Doncaster, Sandwell, Wakefield, Kirklees, Durham, Mansfield (70%!), the South Wales Valleys. Places that have been voting Labour since the 1920's often.
I wouldn't be surprised if most Labour supporters outside Greater London and Scotland voted Leave. I suspect that while Conservatives favoured Leave more than Labour supporters, the differential was smaller than polls were showing. I think Labour Leave won this.
And, that goes to show how daft Blairite MPs are to wish to overthrow Corbyn on the one issue where he's closer to public opinion than they are.
I have been banging on for weeks that the notion that Labour was going to split 70:30 for Remain was bollocks. Certainly outside London, it was inconceivable.
The split of the Labour vote was always key. And Ias i confidently predicted, was where the polls were horribly wrong...
I think with non-EU migrants the polls got it completely wrong as well. Loads of plaxes with Asian and African migrants/second generation have swung to Leave. Clearly we're all just xenophobic racists though.
On the lower rungs of society the usual tactic is to divide and turn them against each other. It's the same here. Good immigrants vs Bad immigrants. Of course, it helps if you target those who have a vote rather than those who don't. It's deplorable, divide, divide, divide....
Absolute rubbish. The EU creates divisions by blocking off migration from the rest of the world. That's why non-EU migrants swung for leave, my cousin, was denied a visa to work for a pharmaceutical company even though it was a high wage job that requires skills that he has. He has ended up applying for a similar job for a Swiss competitor. In what world is it right that we should deny entry to a highly skilled Indian migrant who will add to the economy and have unlimited migration for unskilled migrants who require a lot of state assistance in the form of tax credits, housing benefits and child tax credits?
I'm amazed that the some in the Labour PLP think that they can oust Corbyn after this.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
Labour's huge and seemingly irresolvable problem is that the leadership is in touch with the membership but not in touch with Labour voters or MPs; while Labour MPs are in touch with Labour voters but not in touch with the members or the leadership.
If Labour MPs were in touch with Labour voters they wouldn't have nearly all lined up to support Remain so vocally...
Most Labour voters voted for remain.
Outside of London I don't think so. And I'm sure that if Corbyn was allowed to support Leave from the Labour PLP, it would have been a very clear majority for Leave among Labour voters.
Alternatively, if Corbyn had embraced Labour party policy and made sure that Labour was totally focused on a Remain win from the very start of the campaign it may have made it harder for Leave to set the agenda.
I certainly think the PB comments demographic deserves to exult in its victory, but if there is any magnanimity, please think for a moment about those of us who are in the under-50s, who by and large wanted to stay, who are really going to be carrying the can for the boomers and the Osborne deficits and the incoming higher dependency ratios. You got yours, now please do your bit to make the UK outside the EU a good place for the under-50s. That's all.
Most of us in that age group have adult children, for myself it's precisely because I would like to see affordable housing, free education, proper training, prosperity spread outside of the South East, accountable politicians and a secure financial future for my descendants that I voted leave.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
The leaders of the union elected and appointed by the Heads of Government are not tasked with voluntarily tearing strips off European unity for right-wing eurosceptics. If the UK wants to leave, their philosophy is democratic: the EU is not a comforting Daddy figure that you hate but that keeps you from making stupid decisions, and the UK's vote is not a resigning matter for the rest of the European Union which didn't get a vote. More generally, the UK no longer gets a say. Out is out.
I see this is all peace and light here. I also see that the usual suspects have been all over the airwaves claiming that basically Labour didnt get the message across and saying more intensity of the same is needed.
When are you idiots going to realise that your core voters in the main are decent BRITISH people who are proud of traditional BRITISH culture who do not want to see that culture destroyed, not because other cultures are inferior.
But because others cultures are different and not their culture and they do not want to be socially engineered, called racist and looked down on but to continue and maintain the BRITISH culture that they inherited from their forefathers who from Peterloo to Waterloo have been a force for good in the world.
Why do you, in particular you people who run and are members of the Labour party, so hate the native British and particularly English proletariat who founded your party and paid with their blood from Tolpuddle to Kennington Park so that you have the right to organise your party and vote?
If Today does not make the penny drop then you are finished and the party of Atlee, Gaitskill and Smith is dead and will never recover.
For the sake of the people of Britain and Europe, get rid of the pernicious and divisive identity politics you aquired in the sixties, stop being colour and every other -ism obsessed and be colour and every other -ism blind treat everyone equally before the law even if it seems inconvenient to do so. Ignore the rabble rousing so called community leaders and listen instead to communities and ditch the Gramascianism and reinstate the Methodism.
Otherwise you, and the ordinary working people are doomed to go back to the elite and the exploited.
I'm afraid this is a curious mixture of ultra-right ideology.
Labour was not founded as an ethnic movement.
I
Actually, it was founded, in part as a nativist anti-immigration party. Look up some of Keir Hardie's early speeches about Eastern European and Jewish migrant workers.
What of it? We don't calculate how many years a voter may have to live on average and weight their vote accordingly, and how else would you solve the 'problem' of older people not living to see consequences. Should we take away the votes of people at a GE already within 5 years of life expectancy?
Why not just cut to the chase? And let the Jo Cox types run everything without the tedious necessity of democracy...
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
You've made a couple of good posts in succession. A lot of people don't care much about accountability, but I do.
Juncker et al pay lip service to the idea, but my belief is that they don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the EU as currently constituted.
As others have said, that it didn't even cross the minds of the likes of Jean-Claude Drunker (sic) that he should really resign, tells you why we voted to leave in the first place.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
All you need to know why Brexit happened is that Cameron resigned, but Juncker, Tusk and Schmidt have not even thought about it.
From the European perspective, Britain is a serial opt-outer. No Schengen, no euro, no meaningful policing/security cooperation, and it was looking for even more opt-outs on free movement and "ever-closer union"; implicitly, the single market. Recognise that Europe sees this more as stepping one-third out of a club the UK was already two-thirds out of; regrettable, but in a sense easy to understand from a distance.
If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 on Dave's watch, the PM would have resigned. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, do the EU's leader's take any kind of responsibility? No. In fact, quite the reverse. They blame everyone else and are currently on a macho ego trip.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
Is there anyone who isn't on the receiving end of your lashing and smiling?
Cameron. Because today he did the right thing and you don't kick someone when they're down. Right?
The leadership of the EU should take their fair share of the blame for this. At the moment they're escaping scot-free, blaming others and that annoys me. This is not all on Cameron. Fair enough?
I don't want to be ageist, but what a bunch of old fuckwits we have living in the UK. They had everything...pensions, good jobs with conditions, free education, rising house prices, access to mortgages.....and what do they do with it? They throw a shedload of resentful, spite at our impoverished, open minded, urbane young people by trying to recreate a perverted version of 50's Britain.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
The most wealthy older people probably voted Remain.
Also there was some polling evidence that the over 75s were evenly split between the options.
What's clear is that in a few year's time most Leavers will be pushing up the daisies and won't witness the consequences of their actions, either because of old age or a shortened lifespan from bingeing on fags, booze and pizzas.
Some, maybe, but most? That'd require some sort of apocalyptic event.
Comments
He has handed in his notice but still has the job.
Conservatives splitting 60/40, Labour 40/60, UKIP 95/5, Others 25/75 = 52%.
Time and time again election results, including the referendum, show how out of touch Labour MP's are from Labour voters and Labour members, Cobyn was voted as Leader precisely to stick two fingers up to the Labour PLP.
The problem with Labour is not Corbyn but the MP's, those are the ones that need to be replaced by people who actually represent their constituents instead of just themselves.
If Labour MP's are unwilling, once again, for personal reasons to listen to the Labour voters and Labour members, then they should be replaced.
However, now that we know that Cameron was fibbing when he said he would carry on, on top of the rest of Remain's nonsense, I don't feel too bad.
You tend to find the Irish have a degree of flexibility when it suits :-)
Thanks indeed AndyJS, I owe you a drink if we are ever at the same PB tavern.
Tried not to be too triumphant at work amidst gnashing and whaling of teeth from some of my colleagues. I hope I didn't annoy them too much!
And so the ridiculous remain campaign economic scare stories have come totally apart at the seams within 24 hours. Obama - we're not at the back of the queue Obama errrmmm not quite. Germany offering associate membership, and France not going through on the Le Touquet non-co-operation threat. I called it all out as scare stories, need I say any more?
But hey, if the people feel don't like what the Tories do, they can kick them out.
Sure it was angry and passionate and raw but where bullshit was peddled bullshit was rebutted and the jury of the British people looked at the evidence, refused to be cowed and turned out in the millions to give their verdict.
This is the greatest day in the history of these isles since the day in 1940 that Hitler called off his invasion after he couldnt break the RAF.
In the campaign, did they offer anything to keep us together? No. If anything they made matters worse. They could have thrown Cameron a bone. But they let him eat cake.
They should go, but they won't because they don't have to answer to anyone. Which is the whole reason we started down this unpleasant path.
Labour was not founded as an ethnic movement.
I
The votes are in, the result determined.
Now they have to avoid rocking the boat because they have their own elections in mind, they don't want an extra crisis in hand.
Can't say I disagree.
It is like some kind of horror movie- the crusty, narrow minded, resentful, bitter oldies get their revenge because they are so jealous of youth.
And no Im not a Labour voter despite being a union member for over thirty years. Listen to Hoey Mann and Field instead of the Gramascian North London fools and I might be.
Stage 3 of grief - bargaining. Just depression to go before we get to acceptance and we can move on.
The EU and Europhiles failed to make a positive case for the union for many years, and scarcely tried during the campaign. That's a shame, but the decision has been made.
Let's get on with it.
Indeed. Nothing wrong with the the elderly, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who voted Remain. All my Boston-based immediate family did, as did I. Although one of the more clever ones has an 'ology.
You're harking back to a supposed era of ethnocentric true socialism, but this era never existed. It's a concept itself created by both post -1960s ethnic identity politics and neo left populism.
Exactly the same shambles as last time!
Jezza is sending round robin emails. He is digging in for the fight ahead.
Juncker et al pay lip service to the idea, but my belief is that they don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the EU as currently constituted.
Pot.kettle.black
You are just now feeling what these people have felt for years.
Half the country was going to be disappointed today, but at least we have fairly safe jobs and an extra £100 million per week to come into the NHS.
Off to a leaving do for one of our EU doctors tonight, shall sound out the mood there. Hopefully not too depressed, they are a great bunch.
And I'm sure that if Corbyn was allowed to support Leave from the Labour PLP, it would have been a very clear majority for Leave among Labour voters.
https://twitter.com/sdkstl/status/746353269606318081
So the more experience the person has of life and the EU, the more likely they voted for Brexit.
God knows who will succeed him....but by next week we'll have 2 leadership contests on the go.
CON: 42/58
LAB: 63/37
LDEM: 70/30
UKIP: 4/96
GRN: 75/25
SNP: 64/36
Maybe the SNP, the LDs and Greens the big surprises. A fair few Leavers.
At least Corbyn sceptical 7 out of 10 for the EU, is more honest and in tune than their assessment.
If you were in their position, the chance to do over Cameron, Mandelson and New Lab/Con is tempting.
So clearly not his own position. I know we knew that, but nice of him to provide confirmation.
Where's my £350m ?
I'm sure you'll dismiss this, but most older people care more about their kids & grandchildren than themselves.
By and large the young have better qualifications than their elders (1st comp sci/MSc SW engineering here though), but we've the compensatory experience and some of us remember life before the EU/EEC.
doesnt count
https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu
"Most Labour voters voted for remain."
They did, but that was predominantly the middle-class, urban "progressives". The Mrs Duffys up north didn't.
That's the real split.
Actually, it was founded, in part as a nativist anti-immigration party. Look up some of Keir Hardie's early speeches about Eastern European and Jewish migrant workers.
Edited for spelling mistake.
You Brexiters. Look whose side you are on...the white past, not the future of our country. Miserable, racists.
The leadership of the EU should take their fair share of the blame for this. At the moment they're escaping scot-free, blaming others and that annoys me. This is not all on Cameron. Fair enough?
Also there was some polling evidence that the over 75s were evenly split between the options.