I am no Corbyn cheerleader, but I genuinely don't understand the argument that anyone else would be a better leader. The Labour "moderates" were ALL huge cheerleaders for the Remain Campaign, so they've also just shown they are utterly useless at reading the public mood too.
If there's a Blairite put in (culturally liberal, but economically similar to the Tories), I genuinely think they'll get utterly wiped out in the North in the next election. Labour really needs the exact opposite: economically left-wing, but socially/culturally conservative.
Yes. They need to begin looking at how to out UKIP, UKIP. While keeping the trendy Londoners on board. After today it is not going to be easy for Labour to reconnect with voters. Especially if the MPs defy the will of the members and depose a leader that at least has a chance of doing that.
Sat talking to some of our continuity New Labour members at the count last night and I put exactly that point. If we are out of touch with our electorate how would a new leader even more out of touch with our electorate help?
The problem is that for many party apparatchiks the out voting Labour people are ignorant and racist and need to be TOLD that MORE CONVINCINGLY
Labour need to decide who they are and what are their values. Do they stand for the working man, with his values, concerns and prejudices, or do they stand for an educated metropolitan elite who believe in unlimited unskilled immigration?
They have tried doing both, and as we have seen it didn't work.
If Labour chooses just to stand for the educated metropolitan elite (i.e. the Blairite strategy), and not to stand for the working-class anymore then they can kiss goodbye to most of their seats outside of London, Oxford and Cambridge.
@AP: BREAKING: Swiss central bank says it has intervened in currency markets to limit franc's rise after UK vote.
The Swiss are concerned about the Swiss Franc's rise, not the pound's fall per se (although clearly these are not independent of each other). Sterling should not be regarded as a national virility symbol. If it were, the Swiss would be cheering their Franc's rise.
My whole Facebook feed having some kind of mass breakdown that makes the reaction to last year's GE result look like crocodile tears, and makes Alastair Meeks look measured.
One person claiming we're about to become the Britain of "V for Vendetta". Another calling 50% of the British public "thick as pigshit" and arguing there should be an IQ test for voting.
I can honestly say that I am no longer sure that Scotland is better off in the UK
This is the problem with emotions running high combined with a lack of sleep. None of the problems the SNP had before- defence, foreign affairs, etc.- have ceased to exist.
Nobody yet knows what deal the UK will get, but if Scotland leaves before exit negotiations are complete it goes straight to the back of the queue for membership (including access to the Single Market). rUK is by far a more important market than the EU for Scotland, whether exports or imports. rUK currently subsidises Scotland to the tune of £8bn per year, and unless Germany doubles its net contribution and diverts it all towards Scotland, that money isn't being replaced by the EU.
At the end of the day, Britain is a functioning state whether it leaves the EU or remains in it: Scotland isn't, and hasn't been for 300 years.
Don't think you understand: when even Jo Rowling is havering, it means support for the Union has totally gone, no matter what. I was strongly opposed to the the break up of the UK, but this morning all my NO friends are switching sides. I accept how difficult the process of Scottish independence will be, but now I think it is inevitable. That is not tiredness- I live in Estonia and slept well, it is just a recognition that a bomb has gone off in English/Scottish relations and this time, there is no going back.
How do you think Sturgeon will play it? I expect her to play the long game. Demand full representation in Article 50 negotiations and aim to present a fait accompli to the Scottish people to retain the status quo inside the EU.
If I was the EU I would see finding some way to allow Scotland continuity of membership - despite all the pseudo-legal advice given prior that this cannot be done - as a top priority. Salvaging something from Brexit would help them head off the calls for leave that will emerge within other EU countries.
But Madrid will veto anything that facilitates secession.
As, indeed, will Britain. They can drag Scottish independence negotiations out beyond the completion of Article 50, or they can complete them while they retain EU membership and drop Scotland outside the Single Market.
Corbyn was the front man of that campaign for Labour.
That would be Alan Johnson. See much our Alan did you.....?
No. Labour had a position for Remain. Corbyn is leader. He is the de-facto front man. He did as little as he could.
Labour weakness played a key part in the result. He owns that. He can't blame others like he did when he was on the backbenches.
Exactly right. He should go and go now.
How do you think that will happen?
We have our party back and the Kendalls and Tory lite ers aint getting it back this side of 2020
Even John Mann thinks a letter signed by 55 Tony Blair wet dreamers is daft
It's not just your party. The Labour vote is disintegrating. The whole point of the party is to win elections to make a difference.
It's disintegrating because the core vote disagrees with Labour MPs on cultural issues like the EU. Where is the logic in replacing Corbyn with someone even more out of step with them on those issues?? Where is the evidence that the "moderates" are any better than Corbyn at winning elections when many of them (Chuka, Kendall, Emma Reynolds) were just involved in designing the strategy of the Remain Campaign?
Labour needs a communicator with some guts who recognises that Labour are close to extinction. It is that bad. Labour needs something fresh to say on policy that combines the best of all sides of the party.
Corbyn is not the man to deliver any of that. He must go.
I think Cameron is hoping that a new deal will be offered by the EU, and the that fresh PM will get a chance to offer it to us again. Hence: wait and don't use Article 50 yet, resign and be the fall guy, and give enough time for people to calm down on both sides.
Notably no one appears to be talking of that as a possibility. I think the eu sees that any offer, even a good one, woukd probably fetch the same result.
More to the point, even though it is in theory reasonable for a new PM to ask the country to consider a new offer, in what universe does that pm a new referendum through the commons and win a public vote? In what universe do 27 other nations come together to discuss making us a new offer, which our new government will be pressured to say we don't want, agree a new offer and then make it to us?
They woukd need to be convinced of serous harm to themselves if they didn't get us back, and as we've seen people will accept harm to avoid what they see as humiliated. The eu will not want to be humiliated further, or risk another rejection.
Corbyn has to be executed because he's useless. Not only will Brexit reshape Britain totally there might well be a Brexit General Election under a new PM. It's precisely because of what Labour heartlands did yesterday that Labour MP's have to act. You just can't have someone so utterly incompetent in charge when your nation is in a once per century flux.
My whole Facebook feed having some kind of mass breakdown that makes the reaction to last year's GE result look like crocodile tears, and makes Alastair Meeks look measured.
Ha ha. I wonder how many of the jumped up kids on social media actually voted?
I am no Corbyn cheerleader, but I genuinely don't understand the argument that anyone else would be a better leader. The Labour "moderates" were ALL huge cheerleaders for the Remain Campaign, so they've also just shown they are utterly useless at reading the public mood too.
If there's a Blairite put in (culturally liberal, but economically similar to the Tories), I genuinely think they'll get utterly wiped out in the North in the next election. Labour really needs the exact opposite: economically left-wing, but socially/culturally conservative.
Yes. They need to begin looking at how to out UKIP, UKIP. While keeping the trendy Londoners on board. After today it is not going to be easy for Labour to reconnect with voters. Especially if the MPs defy the will of the members and depose a leader that at least has a chance of doing that.
Sat talking to some of our continuity New Labour members at the count last night and I put exactly that point. If we are out of touch with our electorate how would a new leader even more out of touch with our electorate help?
The problem is that for many party apparatchiks the out voting Labour people are ignorant and racist and need to be TOLD that MORE CONVINCINGLY
Labour need to decide who they are and what are their values. Do they stand for the working man, with his values, concerns and prejudices, or do they stand for an educated metropolitan elite who believe in unlimited unskilled immigration?
They have tried doing both, and as we have seen it didn't work.
If Labour chooses just to stand for the educated metropolitan elite (i.e. the Blairite strategy), and not to stand for the working-class anymore then they can kiss goodbye to most of their seats outside of London, Oxford and Cambridge.
So, here we are. Dont want to say we told you so, but we told you so. There has been a lot of arrogance. You can ban someone for saying something you dont like, but you are just shooting the messenger. You ignored the data. You ignored the Polls showing a statistical tie. You ignored the betting data that showed most votes were on LEAVE. We told you. The idea of Political Betting is that people vote with their heads & wallet rather than their hearts. If Freedom of Speech is the immune system of Society, Political Correctness is the AIDS.
You ignored the 80% of threads that were pro REMAIN
I am no Corbyn cheerleader, but I genuinely don't understand the argument that anyone else would be a better leader. The Labour "moderates" were ALL huge cheerleaders for the Remain Campaign, so they've also just shown they are utterly useless at reading the public mood too.
If there's a Blairite put in (culturally liberal, but economically similar to the Tories), I genuinely think they'll get utterly wiped out in the North in the next election. Labour really needs the exact opposite: economically left-wing, but socially/culturally conservative.
Yes. They need to begin looking at how to out UKIP, UKIP. While keeping the trendy Londoners on board. After today it is not going to be easy for Labour to reconnect with voters. Especially if the MPs defy the will of the members and depose a leader that at least has a chance of doing that.
Sat talking to some of our continuity New Labour members at the count last night and I put exactly that point. If we are out of touch with our electorate how would a new leader even more out of touch with our electorate help?
The problem is that for many party apparatchiks the out voting Labour people are ignorant and racist and need to be TOLD that MORE CONVINCINGLY
Labour need to decide who they are and what are their values. Do they stand for the working man, with his values, concerns and prejudices, or do they stand for an educated metropolitan elite who believe in unlimited unskilled immigration?
They have tried doing both, and as we have seen it didn't work.
If Labour chooses just to stand for the educated metropolitan elite (i.e. the Blairite strategy), and not to stand for the working-class anymore then they can kiss goodbye to most of their seats outside of London, Oxford and Cambridge.
My whole Facebook feed having some kind of mass breakdown that makes the reaction to last year's GE result look like crocodile tears, and makes Alastair Meeks look measured.
A lawyer friend of mine is almost in tears-says he is more depressed than he has EVER been about ANYTHING
People on this board need to understand movements in financial markets. A 'surprise' has happened, there is a new equilibrium path for the economy, financial prices jump (in this case down) to the new path. This transition involves *overshooting* followed by gradual reversal of that overshooting. We have just witnessed the overshooting. If you want to profit medium term yoou now have a buying opportunity.
The immediate question is whether you are right that we reached the bottom in one go. My instinct is that you are right for today - then people spend the weekend reflecting on all the implications, and the very real uncertainty about what lies in store for us politically and economically means that the sell off continues next week. So I would be very wary about going bargain hunting today.
If there are more 'surprises' to come you may be right. Otherwise expectations are already 'priced in'. A weekend's reflection is irrelevant.
Bollox it is priced in. Of course we haven't reached the bottom...we are on the course of economic uncertainty for the foreseeable future with the fluctuations, swings and risks that it entails.
There is always uncertainty. But the biggest uncertainty in the past few months has now been resolved. Of course adjustments must be expected because things have to be unravelled. But from now on we know the direction of travel at least.
You might know, but it is far from obvious to me. I would say that waking up this morning there is a very lengthy list of things that, suddenly, we do not know.
One certainty, anything goes wrong and anyone who voted leave will be blamed.
I've never been in a position where I've been in complete opposition so, in a way, I can now be what these people have been. It feels good, it feels powerful, no downside and no responsibility. A strange elating feeling.
Now to figure out who to hate and hound first, so many to choose from!,
Wouldn't go quite as far as you but a very fickle electorate, particularly the WWC, will turn very quickly on the Leavers if they don't get the "free stuff" they think they have been promised or it all goes horribly wrong. Heaven help them if they cop to of ending free movement.
I also agree it is a relief to have the boot on the other foot after all these years. Leave will be having to deliver and the Mail/Telegraph won't be able to scapegoat the EU for all our ills. Anyone know where I can get a "Don't blame me" car sticker!
My whole Facebook feed having some kind of mass breakdown that makes the reaction to last year's GE result look like crocodile tears, and makes Alastair Meeks look measured.
One person claiming we're about to become the Britain of "V for Vendetta". Another calling 50% of the British public "thick as pigshit" and arguing there should be an IQ test for voting.
Laugh of the day. Sky saying that Nicky Morgan "taking soundings to consider standing for the Leadership" "as someone to carry on Cameron's legacy". WTF
I have a fairly strong rule that anyone seeking to lead a political party has to be more intelligent than my Westie. So, please don't Ms Morgan.
I am no Corbyn cheerleader, but I genuinely don't understand the argument that anyone else would be a better leader. The Labour "moderates" were ALL huge cheerleaders for the Remain Campaign, so they've also just shown they are utterly useless at reading the public mood too.
If there's a Blairite put in (culturally liberal, but economically similar to the Tories), I genuinely think they'll get utterly wiped out in the North in the next election. Labour really needs the exact opposite: economically left-wing, but socially/culturally conservative.
Yes. They need to begin looking at how to out UKIP, UKIP. While keeping the trendy Londoners on board. After today it is not going to be easy for Labour to reconnect with voters. Especially if the MPs defy the will of the members and depose a leader that at least has a chance of doing that.
Sat talking to some of our continuity New Labour members at the count last night and I put exactly that point. If we are out of touch with our electorate how would a new leader even more out of touch with our electorate help?
The problem is that for many party apparatchiks the out voting Labour people are ignorant and racist and need to be TOLD that MORE CONVINCINGLY
Labour need to decide who they are and what are their values. Do they stand for the working man, with his values, concerns and prejudices, or do they stand for an educated metropolitan elite who believe in unlimited unskilled immigration?
They have tried doing both, and as we have seen it didn't work.
If Labour chooses just to stand for the educated metropolitan elite (i.e. the Blairite strategy), and not to stand for the working-class anymore then they can kiss goodbye to most of their seats outside of London, Oxford and Cambridge.
Agreed.
Corbyn is the "the educated metropolitan elite".
Exactly - and it's them who have put him in position.
I can honestly say that I am no longer sure that Scotland is better off in the UK
This is the problem with emotions running high combined with a lack of sleep. None of the problems the SNP had before- defence, foreign affairs, etc.- have ceased to exist.
Nobody yet knows what deal the UK will get, but if Scotland leaves before exit negotiations are complete it goes straight to the back of the queue for membership (including access to the Single Market). rUK is by far a more important market than the EU for Scotland, whether exports or imports. rUK currently subsidises Scotland to the tune of £8bn per year, and unless Germany doubles its net contribution and diverts it all towards Scotland, that money isn't being replaced by the EU.
At the end of the day, Britain is a functioning state whether it leaves the EU or remains in it: Scotland isn't, and hasn't been for 300 years.
Don't think you understand: when even Jo Rowling is havering, it means support for the Union has totally gone, no matter what. I was strongly opposed to the the break up of the UK, but this morning all my NO friends are switching sides. I accept how difficult the process of Scottish independence will be, but now I think it is inevitable. That is not tiredness- I live in Estonia and slept well, it is just a recognition that a bomb has gone off in English/Scottish relations and this time, there is no going back.
How do you think Sturgeon will play it? I expect her to play the long game. Demand full representation in Article 50 negotiations and aim to present a fait accompli to the Scottish people to retain the status quo inside the EU.
If I was the EU I would see finding some way to allow Scotland continuity of membership - despite all the pseudo-legal advice given prior that this cannot be done - as a top priority. Salvaging something from Brexit would help them head off the calls for leave that will emerge within other EU countries.
But Madrid will veto anything that facilitates secession.
As, indeed, will Britain. They can drag Scottish independence negotiations out beyond the completion of Article 50, or they can complete them while they retain EU membership and drop Scotland outside the Single Market.
Now that we are talking about the WWC, there is a huge aspiration problem associated with WWC children. I don't know how this has come about but the situation is getting worse - compare and contrast with the children of immigrant families from a similar socio-economic class. Almost certainly, Government has played a part in this neglect but there is also the cultural or family aspect. Speaking with a few of my friends who work in the sector (e.g. TeachFirst), education is not pushed and not encouraged at a family or community level. Again, compare and contract with the immigrant population where education is seen as the key to a better life.
Speaking with a few of my friends who work in the sector (e.g. TeachFirst), education is not pushed and not encouraged at a family or community level. Again, compare and contract with the immigrant population where education is seen as the key to a better life.
Which explains why the anti-intellectual /anti-expert Leave campaigning was so effective.
I'm a believer in football clubs not seeking to keep hold of players who have expressed a desire to move on to another club .... it's a totally futile exercise .... let 'em go I say.
The same surely applies to Scotland and her citizens' seeming desire, once again, for independence. If they're hell bent on going, let 'em go. We can remain on good terms and continue to share a common language, just as we do with the Irish. It would be a shame of course, but it's really their call.
My whole Facebook feed having some kind of mass breakdown that makes the reaction to last year's GE result look like crocodile tears, and makes Alastair Meeks look measured.
A lawyer friend of mine is almost in tears-says he is more depressed than he has EVER been about ANYTHING
He doesn't live in Islington and work in the pensions field by any chance does he?
Corbyn is a genius. He's only been in the job for a few months and he's already seen off his first Tory leader.
It is arguable that Corbyn has achieved a huge amount in a very short time. He's seen off Cameron, he's achieved his dream of Brexit and he's likely gotten a fresh election 4 years early.
Of course that doesn't mean the new election will go well for him. But on his record, he is doing a remarkable job.
Comments
The latter is a teacher, by the way.
Corbyn is not the man to deliver any of that. He must go.
More to the point, even though it is in theory reasonable for a new PM to ask the country to consider a new offer, in what universe does that pm a new referendum through the commons and win a public vote? In what universe do 27 other nations come together to discuss making us a new offer, which our new government will be pressured to say we don't want, agree a new offer and then make it to us?
They woukd need to be convinced of serous harm to themselves if they didn't get us back, and as we've seen people will accept harm to avoid what they see as humiliated. The eu will not want to be humiliated further, or risk another rejection.
He/she seems to be labouring under the delusion that those of us that didn't like the result lost money on it."
Class. On a serious day that's made me chuckle.
I also agree it is a relief to have the boot on the other foot after all these years. Leave will be having to deliver and the Mail/Telegraph won't be able to scapegoat the EU for all our ills. Anyone know where I can get a "Don't blame me" car sticker!
The same surely applies to Scotland and her citizens' seeming desire, once again, for independence. If they're hell bent on going, let 'em go. We can remain on good terms and continue to share a common language, just as we do with the Irish. It would be a shame of course, but it's really their call.
Of course that doesn't mean the new election will go well for him. But on his record, he is doing a remarkable job.