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  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    Nick Watt claimed a major leaver told him last week they thought they had it in the bag. Then the events of last Thursday.

    i do agree. If leave lose it's thomas mair who lost it for them.
    I disagree. There's no way at all for us to know if that is why people are voting the way they are - it happened after a major swing to leave some swing back to Remain was perfectly possible.

    And if it is a big remain win, it definitely wasn't the reason. But even a slight one, it's unprovable, so it's an excuse if leavers blame it.
    If Leave lose, then some people will blame Thomas Mair. I don't think it stands up.

    If people's allegiance to a cause can be swayed by what is essentially a tragic non sequitur then it's the Leave campaign's fault for not making its case compelling enough.
    i don't think people think that maturely or logically I'm afraid.

    yes if leave loses it will be down to the murder. it painted an ugly picture.
    Or perhaps just induced people to suddenly become Shy Leavers, when asked by the pollsters...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Mortimer said:

    Wow, heartily encouraged by that IPSOS poll.

    Good chance of England voting Leave with that poll.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    As a Remainer, I guess this must be what a Labour voter felt like at the GE. Rising confidence, better than expected result, progressive alliance in the bag.

    I hope I don't experience the same thing they did at 10 in the evening. Actually, is there an exit poll due?
    The BBC tell me there is no exit poll.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    Watch the birdie:

    Last matched price for next Conservative leader:

    Boris Johnson - 4.5
    Theresa May - 4.9

    (George Osborne 8.6, Michael Gove 9)

    EDIT

    NB crossover on the next Prime Minister:

    Boris Johnson - 5.3
    Theresa May - 5.1

    At least one of my bets has come in in price (May) !
  • AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    This was his final Prospect article before the general election:
    "General Election 2015: The Tories are still toxic
    David Cameron has failed to convince voters that his party are committed to raising living standards"

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/peter-kellner/general-election-2015-the-tories-are-still-toxic
    Thanks, always a leftie and it affects his judgement.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited June 2016

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    @JoeMurphyLondon: 66% say Cameron was right to call referendum - 24% say he was wrong. #finalpoll @ipsosMORI @eveningstandard

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Should Cameron resign if he loses? Only 40% say he should, reveales #finalpoll. 45% say he shd stay in power. @IpsosMORI @EveningStandard
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AlbertoNardelli: We polled the pollsters - most say Remain, but only just https://t.co/puZTOyfhEO #EUref
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    DavidL said:

    There has clearly been a swing back to remain in the last few days. Was this the keeping hold of nurse factor long predicted, Osborne's very clever "emergency budget" nonsense, Jo Cox, Ruth Davidson, that poster or all of the above? We will never know for sure but the only clear polling evidence points to Osborne and the very marked increase in concern about the personal finance implications of Brexit.

    Leave now requires more differential turnout than currently predicted, a significant built in advantage in the 17% or so of votes cast when they were riding higher in the polls or conclusive evidence that polling companies are crap. It's not impossible but its a long shot. 6+ long shot? That still looks pretty generous to me.

    It's simply the swingback we have long predicted.

    The "claims" of why are basically a failed Remain campaign trying to hide it's poor performance.
  • EICIPMEICIPM Posts: 55
    Tick tock, losers! Read the polls and weep!
  • Paul Mason @paulmasonnews
    I just voted Remain. Now let's renegotiate Lisbon and sweep away neoliberalism with a Europe-wide revolt @ahorapodemos @GlobalDebout

    How does an unelected person such as Mason, that supports the opposition party hope to have a renegotiation? Fantasy land.
  • EICIPMEICIPM Posts: 55
    #EICIPM
    #ticktock
    #TippingPoint
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    And prepare his successor. Ruth?
  • It is quite funny to watch all the professionals solemnly predicting their forecasts with just as much confirmation bias as us lot lol.

    Any details about IPSOS. Is it same methodology, is 52/48 all voters, likely voters or certain voters. How big was the sample. Without that the headline figure is meaningless.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896
    Went and bought my holiday Euros yesterday (off in September). Wifer is going to get some end of August.

    Who is likely to do better, I wonder!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ftwestminster: Thomas Mair trial set for November 14 https://t.co/jqoOsV2VTh
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    I'll be interested to see the Ipsos tables.

    Comres had Remain 10 ahead in the Midlands last night. Unique at this stage.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    7 does seem a ceiling on betfair.

    My 7.2 has been sitting there for an hour.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    I ended at the polling station this morning where I began in February - bitterly torn, heart saying one thing, the head saying another, and irritated and annoyed that we're having a vote at this time on this question, and feeling let down by the Prime Minister, who ultimately is responsible for this, his hopeless renegotiation and for the fallout that follows whatever the outcome.

    I voted Remain, I know many on here will be dismayed by that, in truth I am a little myself, but the "head" won out. Cool hard economic reasoning (and a degree of self-interest) over emotion. I did at least hover over the boxes rather than my usual confident crossing of a box without a moment's hesitation. I even felt a bit choked.

    I just want this all to be over, and let's get on with our lives again...!

    Hear hear.

    NEVER AGAIN.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    DavidL said:

    There has clearly been a swing back to remain in the last few days. Was this the keeping hold of nurse factor long predicted, Osborne's very clever "emergency budget" nonsense, Jo Cox, Ruth Davidson, that poster or all of the above? We will never know for sure but the only clear polling evidence points to Osborne and the very marked increase in concern about the personal finance implications of Brexit.

    Leave now requires more differential turnout than currently predicted, a significant built in advantage in the 17% or so of votes cast when they were riding higher in the polls or conclusive evidence that polling companies are crap. It's not impossible but its a long shot. 6+ long shot? That still looks pretty generous to me.

    There is an element of trying to predict swingback in the numbers produced by Com Res, ORB, and Yougov. I wouldn't expect further swingback on the day.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863
    RodCrosby said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    Nick Watt claimed a major leaver told him last week they thought they had it in the bag. Then the events of last Thursday.

    i do agree. If leave lose it's thomas mair who lost it for them.
    I disagree. There's no way at all for us to know if that is why people are voting the way they are - it happened after a major swing to leave some swing back to Remain was perfectly possible.

    And if it is a big remain win, it definitely wasn't the reason. But even a slight one, it's unprovable, so it's an excuse if leavers blame it.
    If Leave lose, then some people will blame Thomas Mair. I don't think it stands up.

    If people's allegiance to a cause can be swayed by what is essentially a tragic non sequitur then it's the Leave campaign's fault for not making its case compelling enough.
    i don't think people think that maturely or logically I'm afraid.

    yes if leave loses it will be down to the murder. it painted an ugly picture.
    Or perhaps just induced people to suddenly become Shy Leavers, when asked by the pollsters...
    Well, exactly. If Leave win, suddenly I guess the tragedy had no effect, but if Remain win its wailing about how much effect it had. Maybe it had some, maybe it had none, it hardly matters, but leave rallied in the last couple of days, some polls have had them doing well, so I don't see it had any effect.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    As a Remainer, I guess this must be what a Labour voter felt like at the GE. Rising confidence, better than expected result, progressive alliance in the bag.

    I hope I don't experience the same thing they did at 10 in the evening. Actually, is there an exit poll due?
    The BBC tell me there is no exit poll.
    No exit poll. No previous election data to use to underpin the statistical findings. Rumours that banks have done exit polling, but they will face same problem.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Leave out to 7. What is going on?!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    edited June 2016
    I hope you all noticed the subtle pop music reference in Ben Page's tweet.

    I'm a bad influence.
  • I note that Andrea Leadsom has come in to 18.5 as Cameron's replacement from a starting point of 130 a few weeks ago.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    EICIPM said:

    #EICIPM
    #ticktock
    #TippingPoint

    what is EICIPM? Ed Is *** *** Prime Minister?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451
    edited June 2016

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863

    Paul Mason @paulmasonnews
    I just voted Remain. Now let's renegotiate Lisbon and sweep away neoliberalism with a Europe-wide revolt @ahorapodemos @GlobalDebout

    How does an unelected person such as Mason, that supports the opposition party hope to have a renegotiation? Fantasy land.
    He honestly comes across as a little bonkers, one of those types who is convinced about what the people want and that it matches his thoughts, even though the people never vote for it when offered.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    The downside of voting Remain is that we’ll have to put up with Cameron’s smug smile.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,153
    Good morning everyone.

    A beautiful morning here in the Newton Abbot constituency. I've just returned from voting and the polling station was doing brisk, steady business.

    One teller outside, for Remain, handing out stickers saying "I voted Remain" to anyone who would take them.

    He caught me on the hop, so I accepted the sticker although I didn't vote Remain!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited June 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    That analysis is pretty much identical to mine, in all respects, including the error bars and finger-in-the-air adjustments. He's just a touch higher on his Remain midpoint than I am, so I think Leave might just edge it if they are lucky.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,297
    BTW belated thanks to whoever it was that tipped Higher Power at Kempton Park on here yesterday - I know nothing about horse racing but as the tip came my way I risked a few £, and as a 9/2 winner I now have enough to buy a nice bottle of wine for this evening....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    edited June 2016

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    Kellner "As I think the online surveys may be overstating support for Brexit, I reckon that the likely Remain vote ahead of today’s vote was 51-55%, with 45-49% plumping for Leave."

    When Kellner was at Yougov last year he was badly burned on GE night because of how wrong pollsters such as Yougov were. Now Kellner backs phone polls... Problem for Kellner could be if Yougov have actually improved their systems and weightings to the point where they are the most accurate. One little fight worth watching.
    It's odd to be rubbishing your own polling. Online pollsters have made one adjustment after another that's unfavourable to Leave, but still show it as tight. Without those adjustments, online pollsters would be showing Leave close to 10% ahead.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: A week and a half ago @IpsosMORI had LEAVE 6% ahead. In its final poll it has REMAIN 4% ahead

    I suppose you could argue there's a big momentum here behind Remain. But going back to that chart about differential turn out, Remain needs to ahead by more unless turn out is very high.

    Is there any such thing as momentum, psephologically? Isn't it just a mirage based on undecideds firming up for the status quo?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786


    I just want this all to be over, and let's get on with our lives again...!

    And on that we can all agree.....

    Just hope the tories can 'somehow' pull themselves back together.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,020
    IanB2 said:

    But the margin of error works two ways. Therefore even a narrow margin in the polls translates into a reasonably high probability of the side being ahead actually winning, since there's a 50% chance they will actually do better than the poll, a chance that the poll is spot on, plus a further ??% chance that the result falls below the poll but still better than 50/50...

    But there is also an even larger error due to all the sampling problems pollsters have. The were miles out last year, and have made numerous changes to their methodologies over the last few months which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that they really have solved their problems. Still we won't have to wait long to see.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567

    I've put some money on Leave at current prices. If it loses, it looks like a value loser to me on the information that we currently have.

    Likewise. Just gone in at 7. Twice what my previous bets were. Got to be value.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    Leave out to 7. What is going on?!

    More polling that must be even more favourable to Remain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863
    Scott_P said:

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    @JoeMurphyLondon: 66% say Cameron was right to call referendum - 24% say he was wrong. #finalpoll @ipsosMORI @eveningstandard

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Should Cameron resign if he loses? Only 40% say he should, reveales #finalpoll. 45% say he shd stay in power. @IpsosMORI @EveningStandard
    Does it say for how long? Because he shouldn't flounce out the door tomorrow if he loses, but he will go in a few months, so still staying in power.

    I agree with the main finding though - those criticising the referendum as needless ignore that it will probably be 45-55 of the country want to vote leave. He could tried to have not held a referendum, but clearly it was an issue that needed to be addressed, even if people make the wrong choice.
  • EICIPMEICIPM Posts: 55

    EICIPM said:

    #EICIPM
    #ticktock
    #TippingPoint

    what is EICIPM? Ed Is *** *** Prime Minister?
    Ed is Crap, Is Prime Minister
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    He'll want to stay but will he be allowed to?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited June 2016

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: A week and a half ago @IpsosMORI had LEAVE 6% ahead. In its final poll it has REMAIN 4% ahead

    I suppose you could argue there's a big momentum here behind Remain. But going back to that chart about differential turn out, Remain needs to ahead by more unless turn out is very high.
    Mr. Borough, I think if Hurstpierpoint is any guide that turnout could be very high. For this referendum they have opened a second polling station (never had that before in any election) and at 10:00 people were queuing out of the door at both. According to the clerk at the place I voted, "It's been like this since bloody seven o'clock."

    In addition to the number of people voting, I was also surprised to see several people I know who live on the council estate, who seldom if ever vote. It may be therefore that the good people of Hurstpierpoint are determined that their voice should be heard. I hope so, and I hope the pattern is repeated everywhere.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    IanB2 said:

    BTW belated thanks to whoever it was that tipped Higher Power at Kempton Park on here yesterday - I know nothing about horse racing but as the tip came my way I risked a few £, and as a 9/2 winner I now have enough to buy a nice bottle of wine for this evening....

    Nice! I notice Lennon hasn't resurfaced yet, so I guess he had a good night too :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863
    AndyJS said:

    Mortimer said:

    Wow, heartily encouraged by that IPSOS poll.

    Good chance of England voting Leave with that poll.
    Worst possible result, that. Biggest nation out, kept in by others. I'm accepting of that as a supporter of the U.K. But it causes problems for some.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,003
    Sterling currently trading at a 2016 high vs USD (which alone gives some idea of the effect of the Brexit uncertainty). I'm not entirely convinced that that uncertainty is yet over though. Might be a choppy 24 hours or so.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    Mason's a fraud. His contorted justifications for his vote are damning.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    I love the idea that Paul Mason's views on the EU mark him out as being barking, as opposed to his views on every other subject under the sun.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    TGOHF said:

    7 does seem a ceiling on betfair.

    My 7.2 has been sitting there for an hour.

    Don't think you'll have much longer to wait
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,941
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T

    Kellner "As I think the online surveys may be overstating support for Brexit, I reckon that the likely Remain vote ahead of today’s vote was 51-55%, with 45-49% plumping for Leave."

    When Kellner was at Yougov last year he was badly burned on GE night because of how wrong pollsters such as Yougov were. Now Kellner backs phone polls... Problem for Kellner could be if Yougov have actually improved their systems and weightings to the point where they are the most accurate. One little fight worth watching.
    It's odd to be rubbishing your own polling. Online pollsters have made one adjustment after another that's unfavourable to Leave, but still show it as tight. Without those adjustments, online pollsters would be showing Leave close to 10% ahead.
    Which would net me close to £6k on my Spreadex bet:)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863

    EICIPM said:

    #EICIPM
    #ticktock
    #TippingPoint

    what is EICIPM? Ed Is *** *** Prime Minister?
    Ed is Crap is PM - the seeming position that was being suggested by polls running up to the GE, wrong though it turned out to be.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Gone in with another tenner at 7.0
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567
    Jobabob said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: A week and a half ago @IpsosMORI had LEAVE 6% ahead. In its final poll it has REMAIN 4% ahead

    I suppose you could argue there's a big momentum here behind Remain. But going back to that chart about differential turn out, Remain needs to ahead by more unless turn out is very high.

    Is there any such thing as momentum, psephologically? Isn't it just a mirage based on undecideds firming up for the status quo?
    I don't know. They always talk about the 'big mo' in US politics. I suppose if you've not voted yet and you go into the office and they are all saying they voted earlier for Remain, you might think twice.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Louise Mensch claims the Welsh valleys are voting 70/30 Leave:

    twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/745906994326933504
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Presumably the IPSOS MORI 52% REMAIN is a phone poll?

    So we have a referendum on whether online polls or phone polls are more accurate. :)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451


    I just want this all to be over, and let's get on with our lives again...!


    Just hope the tories can 'somehow' pull themselves back together.
    No, lets not... ;)

  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    If ever there was an atmosphere for a shy voter effect in the polls, it is for this election.One side has been accused of murder.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2016
    I'm sticking with my prediction of Remain 50.5% Leave 49.5%.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited June 2016
    Just voted. Remain people everywhere. They say the polling is 'Significantly higher' than the GE

    Just put a bet on 70-80% even money
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    edited June 2016
    Scott_P said:

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    @JoeMurphyLondon: 66% say Cameron was right to call referendum - 24% say he was wrong. #finalpoll @ipsosMORI @eveningstandard

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Should Cameron resign if he loses? Only 40% say he should, reveales #finalpoll. 45% say he shd stay in power. @IpsosMORI @EveningStandard
    'Only' 40% think the PM should resign, and you post that as a good thing?

    Wow.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,768
    EICIPM said:

    EICIPM said:

    #EICIPM
    #ticktock
    #TippingPoint

    what is EICIPM? Ed Is *** *** Prime Minister?
    Ed is Crap, Is Prime Minister
    YEEEEEEEESSSSSS told you. Pity i missed it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,297

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    Mason's a fraud. His contorted justifications for his vote are damning.
    Why? I agree he hasn't explained himself very well. But a concern at the sort of people that will probably end up running the country if we go Brexit now - essentially the right wing of the Tory Party, at best - is, for someone with his views, surely a legitimate reason to discount any longer term concerns he might have about the EU project?
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    TOPPING said:

    OllyT said:

    The big fight today is between those who want to leave the EU - and those who want to leave the EU but are too scared of the consequences.

    The number of people who want to stay in the EU because it is wonderful are tiny.

    I would estimate about 20-25% positively want to stay, particularly at the younger end of the spectrum. I would also say that most people don't have a scooby doo about the EU. The ignorance and misinformation is appalling when you hear Joe Public being interviewed. It has become the convenient scapegoat to blame for all their problems. That's why Leave is doing so well, they can project everyone's concerns on the EU and promise them everything will be better if we just leave.

    Of course if we do leave within a year everyone will be blaming all their woes on Brexit.

    I am sanguine about the result, fortunate enough not to be affected either way but I am expecting the buyer's remorse to swift and harsh if we leave, particularly once we opt for a solution that maintains freedom of movement as I am certain we will.
    I'm also expecting buyer's remorse to be swift and harsh if we vote to Remain! The EU has been walking on egg-shells, saying nothing that could rock the boat for a couple of months. There's going to be pent-up stuff coming out that will get more than a few people spitting nails...
    I'm sure.

    And then, Dave produces his piece of paper saying: No Ever Closer Union.

    And PUUFFFFFFFFFT! All that pent-up stuff will be repelled.
    Ah! The old "Holding up a piece of paper with a solemn promise on it" tactic.

    Remind me again how well that worked out for Neville Chamberlain.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    kle4 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    Nick Watt claimed a major leaver told him last week they thought they had it in the bag. Then the events of last Thursday.

    i do agree. If leave lose it's thomas mair who lost it for them.
    I disagree. There's no way at all for us to know if that is why people are voting the way they are - it happened after a major swing to leave some swing back to Remain was perfectly possible.

    And if it is a big remain win, it definitely wasn't the reason. But even a slight one, it's unprovable, so it's an excuse if leavers blame it.
    If Leave lose, then some people will blame Thomas Mair. I don't think it stands up.

    If people's allegiance to a cause can be swayed by what is essentially a tragic non sequitur then it's the Leave campaign's fault for not making its case compelling enough.
    i don't think people think that maturely or logically I'm afraid.

    yes if leave loses it will be down to the murder. it painted an ugly picture.
    Or perhaps just induced people to suddenly become Shy Leavers, when asked by the pollsters...
    Well, exactly. If Leave win, suddenly I guess the tragedy had no effect, but if Remain win its wailing about how much effect it had. Maybe it had some, maybe it had none, it hardly matters, but leave rallied in the last couple of days, some polls have had them doing well, so I don't see it had any effect.
    Number who would actually change their vote for an irrelevant reason like a murder: minuscule
    Number who might be embarrassed to admit they were voting Leave amid the grief-fest: considerable
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy

    WARNING! THIS POST CAN NOT BE UNSEEN. DO NOT CLICK IF YOU ARE OF A NERVOUS DISPOSITION. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

    @Edwina_Currie: Enjoy https://t.co/ihne7EpNyp
  • nunu said:

    If ever there was an atmosphere for a shy voter effect in the polls, it is for this election.One side has been accused of murder.

    And the other of treason.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    @JoeMurphyLondon: 66% say Cameron was right to call referendum - 24% say he was wrong. #finalpoll @ipsosMORI @eveningstandard

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Should Cameron resign if he loses? Only 40% say he should, reveales #finalpoll. 45% say he shd stay in power. @IpsosMORI @EveningStandard
    'Only' 40% think the PM should resign, and you post that as a good thing?

    Wow.
    If he loses being the important thing.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,003

    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
    I thought he'd already been replaced with Tusk?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,790
    Am I right in thinking that the last IPSOS MORI showed a Leave lead? If so, a four point Remain win is surely a big move. Direction of travel and all that.

    That said, it may be time for another little Leave flutter. The odds are horribly tempting, but my wife would kill me if I put even more money on this.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451
    edited June 2016

    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
    The news channels have to be very, very careful what they say/report before 10pm, why should opinion pollsters be any different?

    These polls could be encouraging LEAVERS to not bother voting because it's already over and on the same token they could be encouraging REMAINERS to not bother because REMAIN have it in the bag.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    nunu said:

    If ever there was an atmosphere for a shy voter effect in the polls, it is for this election.One side has been accused of murder.

    Depends where you live i guess. In sunny Sussex if you show any inclination towards Remain you're treated like a leper.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Am I right in thinking that the last IPSOS MORI showed a Leave lead? If so, a four point Remain win is surely a big move. Direction of travel and all that.

    That said, it may be time for another little Leave flutter. The odds are horribly tempting, but my wife would kill me if I put even more money on this.

    Are you sticking with your Leave forecast Southam?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863

    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
    Only if it is procreative - we can't have remainers outnumbering us in future votes.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Mortimer There's a base percentage of people in polls who think that X should resign no matter what the reason. In that context, only 40% wanting the Prime Minister to resign if Leave win is surprisingly low.

    I can't see him hanging around too long in the event of a Leave win, mind.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Roger said:

    Just voted. Remain people everywhere. They say the polling is 'Significantly higher' than the GE

    Just put a bet on 70-80% even money


    London polling stations reporting high turnout.
  • Disraeli said:

    TOPPING said:

    OllyT said:

    The big fight today is between those who want to leave the EU - and those who want to leave the EU but are too scared of the consequences.

    The number of people who want to stay in the EU because it is wonderful are tiny.

    I would estimate about 20-25% positively want to stay, particularly at the younger end of the spectrum. I would also say that most people don't have a scooby doo about the EU. The ignorance and misinformation is appalling when you hear Joe Public being interviewed. It has become the convenient scapegoat to blame for all their problems. That's why Leave is doing so well, they can project everyone's concerns on the EU and promise them everything will be better if we just leave.

    Of course if we do leave within a year everyone will be blaming all their woes on Brexit.

    I am sanguine about the result, fortunate enough not to be affected either way but I am expecting the buyer's remorse to swift and harsh if we leave, particularly once we opt for a solution that maintains freedom of movement as I am certain we will.
    I'm also expecting buyer's remorse to be swift and harsh if we vote to Remain! The EU has been walking on egg-shells, saying nothing that could rock the boat for a couple of months. There's going to be pent-up stuff coming out that will get more than a few people spitting nails...
    I'm sure.

    And then, Dave produces his piece of paper saying: No Ever Closer Union.

    And PUUFFFFFFFFFT! All that pent-up stuff will be repelled.
    Ah! The old "Holding up a piece of paper with a solemn promise on it" tactic.

    Remind me again how well that worked out for Neville Chamberlain.
    At least in Chamberlains case -some- of the other signatories intended to abide by it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
    The news channels have to be very, very careful what they say/report before 10pm, why should opinion pollsters be any different?

    These polls could be encouraging LEAVERS to not bother voting because it's already over and on the same token they could be encouraging REMAINERS to not bother because REMAIN have it in the bag.
    For many years we've had polls on Election Day, has no impact.

    In America, they report the results whilst the polling stations are still open
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: EXCL: Heathrow runway decision 'in two weeks' https://t.co/sEedJKOLov https://t.co/lgerT9k2im
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756

    Am I right in thinking that the last IPSOS MORI showed a Leave lead? If so, a four point Remain win is surely a big move. Direction of travel and all that.

    That said, it may be time for another little Leave flutter. The odds are horribly tempting, but my wife would kill me if I put even more money on this.

    You need to check the tables though, to see if it's a like for like comparison.

    Still way better for Leave than the numbers that Ipsos MORI have produced except for last week.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @AndyJS

    Scott_P @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T>

    This was his final Prospect article before the general election:

    General Election 2015: The Tories are still toxic
    David Cameron has failed to convince voters that his party are committed to raising living standards"

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/peter-kellner/general-election-2015-the-tories-are-still-toxic'


    The law of averages means Kellner will eventually get something right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863
    RodCrosby said:

    kle4 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    Nick Watt claimed a major leaver told him last week they thought they had it in the bag. Then the events of last Thursday.

    i do agree. If leave lose it's thomas mair who lost it for them.
    I disagree. There's no way at all for us to know if that is why people are voting the way they are - it happened after a major swing to leave some swing back to Remain was perfectly possible.

    And if it is a big remain win, it definitely wasn't the reason. But even a slight one, it's unprovable, so it's an excuse if leavers blame it.
    If Leave lose, then some people will blame Thomas Mair. I don't think it stands up.

    If people's allegiance to a cause can be swayed by what is essentially a tragic non sequitur then it's the Leave campaign's fault for not making its case compelling enough.
    i don't think people think that maturely or logically I'm afraid.

    yes if leave loses it will be down to the murder. it painted an ugly picture.
    Or perhaps just induced people to suddenly become Shy Leavers, when asked by the pollsters...
    Well, exactly. If Leave win, suddenly I guess the tragedy had no effect, but if Remain win its wailing about how much effect it had. Maybe it had some, maybe it had none, it hardly matters, but leave rallied in the last couple of days, some polls have had them doing well, so I don't see it had any effect.
    Number who would actually change their vote for an irrelevant reason like a murder: minuscule
    Number who might be embarrassed to admit they were voting Leave amid the grief-fest: considerable
    Possibly - but then Leave had some increased and leads just yesterday. Could still be an underestimate, I'm predicting 54 for Leave, but the point is even amid the atmosphere direction of travel of leave was caught, so any actual change of vote seems unlikely and therefore blaming a remain win on it misplaced.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    There's a Populus poll out at midday.

    Interesting as they are Remain's private pollster.

    I really, really, don't agree with all this voting day polling that's going on!

    Electoral commission needs to bring this to an end for subsequent elections.
    Typical leaver, wanting to ban stuff, first it was the free movement of people, now it's opinion polls, next you'll be banning rumpy pumpy
    The news channels have to be very, very careful what they say/report before 10pm, why should opinion pollsters be any different?

    These polls could be encouraging LEAVERS to not bother voting because it's already over and on the same token they could be encouraging REMAINERS to not bother because REMAIN have it in the bag.
    For many years we've had polls on Election Day, has no impact.

    Yes and for many years I've said it's a bad doo. Least I'm consistent...

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863

    Jobabob said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: A week and a half ago @IpsosMORI had LEAVE 6% ahead. In its final poll it has REMAIN 4% ahead

    I suppose you could argue there's a big momentum here behind Remain. But going back to that chart about differential turn out, Remain needs to ahead by more unless turn out is very high.

    Is there any such thing as momentum, psephologically? Isn't it just a mirage based on undecideds firming up for the status quo?
    I don't know. They always talk about the 'big mo' in US politics. I suppose if you've not voted yet and you go into the office and they are all saying they voted earlier for Remain, you might think twice.
    Firmed up my Leave vote to see remain doing well in the polls
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    Last time I heard him on the subject he said though the EU is undemocratic that pales into insignificance compared to the possibility of a government run by Boris Gove IDS Farage etc.

    I know what he means
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited June 2016
    john_zims said:

    @AndyJS

    Scott_P @MSmithsonPB: Peter Kellner predicts REMAIN by 8.5& https://t.co/0kAUNXyx6T>

    This was his final Prospect article before the general election:

    General Election 2015: The Tories are still toxic
    David Cameron has failed to convince voters that his party are committed to raising living standards"

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/peter-kellner/general-election-2015-the-tories-are-still-toxic'


    The law of averages means Kellner will eventually get something right.

    He was on the tv for a number of hours after the GE exit poll saying the exit polls were wrong....Yougov had resurveyed on the day and saw no late swing etc etc etc.....but in this case I think he is right, albeit will be surprised if the margin is that wide.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    @Mortimer There's a base percentage of people in polls who think that X should resign no matter what the reason. In that context, only 40% wanting the Prime Minister to resign if Leave win is surprisingly low.

    I can't see him hanging around too long in the event of a Leave win, mind.

    'Spose.

    TBH if Leave win, I wouldn't necessarily want him to resign straight away. Announce his intention to, sure, but not actually go to the palace.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    London always gets what it wants. We will Remain.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Am I right in thinking that the last IPSOS MORI showed a Leave lead? If so, a four point Remain win is surely a big move. Direction of travel and all that.

    That said, it may be time for another little Leave flutter. The odds are horribly tempting, but my wife would kill me if I put even more money on this.

    The last Ipsos had Leave winning London.
  • BlueberryBlueberry Posts: 408
    Just voted. Was surprised the ballots are done on white, photocopier paper, black ink. The ballot papers for our work bake-off are more secure than that.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2016

    London always gets what it wants. We will Remain.

    It didn't at last year's general election. Lab 44%, Con 35%.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    If Remain wins maybe Cameron will stay. He must enjoy winning elections and vanquishing his enemies, why would he give it up?

    He'll want to stay but will he be allowed to?
    Tories like winners. Obviously depending on if he wins and the margin of victory I'd imagine plenty will hold their noses and back him regardless of their views. Not as if there are a load of great alternatives in the current batch of Tories.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,297
    Pulpstar said:

    Gone in with another tenner at 7.0

    I see Betfair is now offering Evens on whether Remain beats 54.5%. For people who think the polls are overstating Remain surely this is a safer bet than leave winning at 6/1?
  • midwinter said:

    nunu said:

    If ever there was an atmosphere for a shy voter effect in the polls, it is for this election.One side has been accused of murder.

    Depends where you live i guess. In sunny Sussex if you show any inclination towards Remain you're treated like a leper.
    I bet that is only in parts ie not places like Brighton where I suspect the opposite applies.

    Difference is that in if you get called a leper for remaining you can shrug it off, it is a toothless threat. Get yourself labelled racist Xeno or Homphobe or whatever for expressing support for Brexit and that could have real negative consequences for your future.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Roger said:

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    Last time I heard him on the subject he said though the EU is undemocratic that pales into insignificance compared to the possibility of a government run by Boris Gove IDS Farage etc.

    I know what he means
    The grip of Uk goverments come and go - the EU noose only tightens.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,863
    edited June 2016
    By the by, is there a rule on how far away any election material has to be from a polling station. Passed anofficial banner about 100 yards (by foot, less as the crow flies,it was on a fence circling it) outside my polling station.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    Mortimer said:

    @Mortimer There's a base percentage of people in polls who think that X should resign no matter what the reason. In that context, only 40% wanting the Prime Minister to resign if Leave win is surprisingly low.

    I can't see him hanging around too long in the event of a Leave win, mind.

    'Spose.

    TBH if Leave win, I wouldn't necessarily want him to resign straight away. Announce his intention to, sure, but not actually go to the palace.
    I've urged Dave to do this in the event of a Leave victory.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/745731968025911296/photo/1
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning everyone.

    A beautiful morning here in the Newton Abbot constituency. I've just returned from voting and the polling station was doing brisk, steady business.

    One teller outside, for Remain, handing out stickers saying "I voted Remain" to anyone who would take them.

    He caught me on the hop, so I accepted the sticker although I didn't vote Remain!

    Just got back from voting Leave in Eastbourne - steady stream, business described as 'pretty good'. It looked about GE level to me.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Roger said:

    Mr. Betting, quite. Mason's off his head. Says he dislikes the EU because it can't be a democracy but wants to stay in to prevent the democratically elected government having a free hand.

    Mr. Tokyo, Cameron remaining or not may not be his choice to make.

    Last time I heard him on the subject he said though the EU is undemocratic that pales into insignificance compared to the possibility of a government run by Boris Gove IDS Farage etc.

    I know what he means
    A bad Parliament is better than a good tyrant. Mason hasn't absorbed Tony Benn's warning.
This discussion has been closed.