The only possible saviour for Remain is her Majesty, will she make a comment at the weekend on the lines of the Balmoral statement that Sunday moring before the Scots referendum.
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
How will you feel about a Cabinet with Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott, and no EU rules to limit state interference in the economy?
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
Farage is the bogey-man being used to try and stop Leave.
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
How will you feel about a Cabinet with Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott, and no EU rules to limit state interference in the economy?
That thankfully we live in a democracy and they will have five years maximum damage to inflict upon us before we get the next chance to kick them out.
Unlike the undemocratic EU where elections don't decide policy.
Is Kate Hoey still a part of the Farage Leave campaign? If so, she should either immediately disown that poster or be expelled from the Labour party. That poster is among the most disgusting I have ever seen. Absolutely repulsive. What a revolting man Nigel Farage is, standing there grinning in front of something that demonises people fleeing from mass-murdering psychopaths.
I looked at it and winced. Then looked at it again and thought back over so many conversations with voters both during the GE campaign and more recently. And concluded the poster probably gets it right for its audience.
Farage and UKIP do what they want. On the issue about all this outrage from REMAINers, presumably this is reason number 201 from REMAIN as to why they going to win?
No, Remain will lose. And there is a proper and important discussion to be had about immigration. But the racism and xenophobia that Farage panders to has no part in it. Like Trump, Farage has thrown the dogwhistle away.
I'm in a quandary like SeanT in some ways.
I've been a Brexiteer because I worry about democracy and sovereignty (or lack of) immigration has never been a concern for me and finding myself on the same side of the debate as Farage and UKIP is very uncomfortable... In normal circumstances I rate these people as complete nut cases and would be ashamed to be associated with them as I'm sure has been noted over the years
This is the great pity of Cameron's lost renegotiation opportunity. Because of his lamentable failure to get a genuine deal that reforms our relationship with with the EU I've been forced to the same side as Farage... A place I'm very uncomfortable to be it must be said.
Simply ignore Farage - he's not even a MP, if we vote Brexit - he'll be out of that MEP job too. Think of Gisela and Hoey and Leadsom. They're the mainstream.
The Kate Hoey who was sailing down the Thames with Nigel Farage yesterday?
Is Kate Hoey still a part of the Farage Leave campaign? If so, she should either immediately disown that poster or be expelled from the Labour party. That poster is among the most disgusting I have ever seen. Absolutely repulsive. What a revolting man Nigel Farage is, standing there grinning in front of something that demonises people fleeing from mass-murdering psychopaths.
I looked at it and winced. Then looked at it again and thought back over so many conversations with voters both during the GE campaign and more recently. And concluded the poster probably gets it right for its audience.
Farage and UKIP do what they want. On the issue about all this outrage from REMAINers, presumably this is reason number 201 from REMAIN as to why they going to win?
No, Remain will lose. And there is a proper and important discussion to be had about immigration. But the racism and xenophobia that Farage panders to has no part in it. Like Trump, Farage has thrown the dogwhistle away.
I'm in a quandary like SeanT in some ways.
I've been a Brexiteer because I worry about democracy and sovereignty (or lack of) immigration has never been a concern for me and finding myself on the same side of the debate as Farage and UKIP is very uncomfortable... In normal circumstances I rate these people as complete nut cases and would be ashamed to be associated with them as I'm sure has been noted over the years
This is the great pity of Cameron's lost renegotiation opportunity. Because of his lamentable failure to get a genuine deal that reforms our relationship with with the EU I've been forced to the same side as Farage... A place I'm very uncomfortable to be it must be said.
Simply ignore Farage - he's not even a MP, if we vote Brexit - he'll be out of that MEP job too. Think of Gisela and Hoey and Leadsom. They're the mainstream.
True. Michael Gove was very impressive on QT last night as well.
Anyone know what happens to EHIC cards post Brexit? I asked a while ago and might have missed an anwer.
Nothing for two years presumably (or until we officially exit) - if we remain in the EEA then it presumably is unaffected.
The EEA = EU + Switzerland + Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market. (Government website)
If not then presumably this is one thing up for negotiation. As I work in Insurance I would remind people that the EHIC is not a substitute for travel insurance - I would also mention that many insurance companies rate the whole of Europe at one rate (as well as some currently covering the North African coastal countries and Israel.)
The only possible saviour for Remain is her Majesty, will she make a comment at the weekend on the lines of the Balmoral statement that Sunday moring before the Scots referendum.
Nope. The Crathie statement risked cheesing off ±4% of the UK, any EU statement would risk cheesing off ±50% of the UK.......
Simply ignore Farage - he's not even a MP, if we vote Brexit - he'll be out of that MEP job too. Think of Gisela and Hoey and Leadsom. They're the mainstream.
Hoey was quite happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with Farage yesterday.
Anyone know what happens to EHIC cards post Brexit? I asked a while ago and might have missed an anwer.
It would almost certainly continue. We have exactly the same arrangement on a bilateral basis with every other country in Europe outside the EU -although the former Russian stares are currently suspended because of sanctions.
I would expect that the arrangements would continue unchanged.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
How long will that be? 10 years? 20 years? Longer?
Meanwhile millions are hugely unhappy with our EU relationship *now*, and we will be treated as a sullen, resentful (but ultimately cowardly) awkward child if we stay. Remaining solves absolutely nothing, and we will get nothing, except giving into our fears.
There's a decade of uncertainty alright; that's if we stay.
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
Farage is the bogey-man being used to try and stop Leave.
"If Leave win, Farage will be in government"
"If you vote Leave, you will be a Faragette"
"Leave means you think like Farage"
Rinse, repeat.
It's not working either. It just looks childish and personal - it doesn't deliver what Remain needs to pull back.
The only possible saviour for Remain is her Majesty, will she make a comment at the weekend on the lines of the Balmoral statement that Sunday moring before the Scots referendum.
The only possible saviour for Remain is her Majesty, will she make a comment at the weekend on the lines of the Balmoral statement that Sunday moring before the Scots referendum.
Or, alternatively, she makes a statement that it's so nice to see her people trying to regain control over their future.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
It seems to be on a knife edge. Suppose Remain wins, but perhaps 45% opted Leave, and many of them are highly motivated. There would then seem to be mileage in putting such a pledge into a (Conservative) manifesto, recalling Scotland after the referendum there.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
How long will that be? 10 years? 20 years? Longer?
Meanwhile millions are hugely unhappy with our EU relationship *now*, and we will be treated as a sullen, resentful (but ultimately cowardly) awkward child if we stay. Remaining solves absolutely nothing, and we will get nothing, except giving into our fears.
There's a decade of uncertainty alright; that's if we stay.
We must get this done and get this done quickly.
If it were done when 'tis done then t'were well it were done quickly
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
It seems to be on a knife edge. Suppose Remain wins, but perhaps 45% opted Leave, and many of them are highly motivated. There would then seem to be mileage in putting such a pledge into a (Conservative) manifesto, recalling Scotland after the referendum there.
And FPTP could deliver us 'freedom' (sic) on 35% of the vote......
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
We must get this done and get this done quickly.
Act in haste repent at leisure.....
Haste? 40 ***** years!
They'll be known in future as 'les quarante glorieuses'.
The only possible saviour for Remain is her Majesty, will she make a comment at the weekend on the lines of the Balmoral statement that Sunday moring before the Scots referendum.
But she supports Leave so that's unlikely
Yep, she is making her own stand against the Establishment elite.
Once Article 50 was triggered, the terms of British exit would be negotiated not by British politicians or officials, but by the other 27 nations of the Union. Britain would find itself in the same position as the United Provinces of the Netherlands in 1713, when they were frozen out of negotiations to end the War of the Spanish Succession by the great powers of Austria, Britain, France, Portugal and Spain. The French diplomat Melchior de Polignac taunted the Dutch, saying that discussions would be “de vous, chez vous, mais sans vous” – “about you, in your own home, but without you”.
Not so. The EU would decide their negotiating position whilst ghe UK decided theirs. There would then be negotiations. But neither side is forced to accept any deal they do not agree with.
So at the end of two years the UK is out of the EU without a deal.....
The we leave anyway and negotiate a trade deal.
Besides I still believe the most likely result is EFTA membership.
Indeed. Although there is a bit of a prisoners dilemma for the EU. As in my view a "beefed up" EFTA with us, Iceland, Norway would potentially be pretty attractive to Sweden and Denmark (and maybe Ireland?) - particularly if they moved together. Would the EU tolerate that, or would they want to prevent it, and harm both us and them in the process?
For existing non eurozone members not committed to full economic union, I think they'd tolerate it. It simplifies their core EU.
Bear in mind that the UK's central policy objective for centuries has been to preserve the balance of power in Europe. Creating a non-EU non-euro zone power centre is now the only real way to do this, politically.
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
It seems to be on a knife edge. Suppose Remain wins, but perhaps 45% opted Leave, and many of them are highly motivated. There would then seem to be mileage in putting such a pledge into a (Conservative) manifesto, recalling Scotland after the referendum there.
And FPTP could deliver us 'freedom' (sic) on 35% of the vote......
Bear in mind that the UK's central policy objective for centuries has been to preserve the balance of power in Europe. Creating a non-EU non-euro zone power centre is now the only real way to do this, politically.
And knowing that, do you think the EU will be naive about how it negotiates with the UK post-Brexit?
Cameron campaigning for Remain in Gibraltar "Opinion polls suggest UK citizens in Gibraltar will vote to remain in the EU, amid concerns its border with Spain would be closed if Britain left," http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36548175
If we don't like the way the EU develops we can elect a government with a manifesto pledge to take us out and don't even need to have another referendum. Then we're out.
We must get this done and get this done quickly.
Act in haste repent at leisure.....
My decision is the culmination of many years and is anything but hasty.
It's not working either. It just looks childish and personal - it doesn't deliver what Remain needs to pull back.
Remain has spent the last couple of months calling Leavers racist and getting bankers to whine about how they will not be quite as rich if we leave the EU. Why Remain have decided to double down on this guff is beyond me. The fact that Remain can't come up with a convincing positive message about our EU membership is pretty telling if you ask me.
Bear in mind that the UK's central policy objective for centuries has been to preserve the balance of power in Europe. Creating a non-EU non-euro zone power centre is now the only real way to do this, politically.
And knowing that, do you think the EU will be naive about how it negotiates with the UK post-Brexit?
Absolutely not, but I believe it will be practical as today's telegraph front page demonstrates.
It's not working either. It just looks childish and personal - it doesn't deliver what Remain needs to pull back.
Remain has spent the last couple of months calling Leavers racist and getting bankers to whine about how they will not be quite as rich if we leave the EU. Why Remain have decided to double down on this guff is beyond me. The fact that Remain can't come up with a convincing positive message about our EU membership is pretty telling if you ask me.
Labour's message today is vote Remain because Boris, Gove Evil Tories. It failed when Eagles did it. They seem stuck in a rut.
Alastair - have we now abandoned our common sense that says if something is politically suicidal, it won't happen?
It doesn't matter whether or not its going to happen, it's whether people believe it - the tories did the same thing running up to 2015 - all sorts of stories about Ed/SNP "secret talks" etc etc.
Leave have left themselves very vulnerable to this sort of thing.
Key to the prospect of Britain thriving outside the EU will be our ability to deliver on the Brexiteers’ claim that the EU will have a strong interest in offering us access to the single market. Much discussed has been the terms on which this might take place - ranging from the Norwegian and Swiss options to the South Korean and Albanian option. But what kind of deal will the EU give us? Surely, Brexiteers argue, given how much the EU relies on buying UK goods, they will not refuse a deal that would cause economic self-harm.
Well, actually, they might. In fact they probably will. To believe otherwise you’d have to think that statements such as that of German finance minister Schaeuble, insisting that Britain will not enjoy access to the Single Market if it left the EU, are pre-referendum bluffs. You would also have to believe that the EU is prepared to decide to offer the departing UK a deal that includes the main benefits of membership without the costs. Just why a club would find it in its interest to offer better terms to non-members than members is unexplained. Let alone why an EU, most of whose governments face an unprecedented surge in radical Eurosceptic populism, would give this amount of encouragement to anti-EU political forces in their own country.
It is a misunderstanding of the revealed preferences of Germany and other EU member state governments - who prize the integrity of the EU so strongly - to think that Britain will not pay a big trade penalty for initiating divorce proceedings. And it suggests a strange contradiction in Eurosceptic reasoning: the same people who believe that Britain is constantly frustrated by an intransigent EU while it is a member think that the minute we leave we will succeed in getting the trade deal of our dreams from Brussels."
Cameron campaigning for Remain in Gibraltar "Opinion polls suggest UK citizens in Gibraltar will vote to remain in the EU, amid concerns its border with Spain would be closed if Britain left," http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36548175
Given how 'robustly' Cameron negotiated with Europe for his deal, I'd be very worried if I were a Gibraltarian.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
I have had a few gos at trying to answer your question, but since I consider REMAIN to be the moral course of action I can't answer your question without steering you to that verdict, and I sense you would not find that helpful.
So in the end all I can give you is: do as you consider right for yourself and your family, be neither cruel nor cowardly, and hope that your decision (whatever it is) will be one that you can live with thereafter. I hope that that is sufficient and good luck with whatever you decide.
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
What is a 'Leave Government' when did we elect them?
Besides I still believe the most likely result is EFTA membership.
Despite the fact that VoteLeave have explicitly rejected those options.
I am fairly confident that post-Brexit former Remainers will compromise with moderate Leavers for a consensus on the EEA, on the grounds it was the least of the evils. Leave were lying through their teeth about a ton of other things, why should they care about retaining freedom of movement when they said they would reduce immigration?
Whether the other players will accept the UK signing up to the EEA is open IMHO. It would be a classic EU "extend and pretend" move. OTOH the EU generally thinks the arrangement with Switzerland was a mistake, which they may be conscious of not repeating. Also Norway has said categorically that the EEA won't work for the UK. They are the main current player on the EFTA side.
Nigel is not all Leavers, not even a majority. Remain keep making that mistake.
And yet Leavers have made no move to distance themselves from him
Funny that
That's an outright LIE. Vote Leave have tried to keep their utmost distance away from him and were furious he was invited onto ITV. Considering you whine about what you call lying what makes you think you can get away with this LIE?
That's an outright LIE. Vote Leave have tried to keep their utmost distance away from him and were furious he was invited onto ITV. Considering you whine about what you call lying what makes you think you can get away with this LIE?
Post the official statement from Vote Leave, or Kate Hoey, or Boris, or Gove, distancing themselves from his poster launch this morning.
@GIN1138 I have made it clear since I first came off the fence for Remain that I did so not out of any love for Remain but because it was clear that Leave was going to be led in the wrong direction by the wrong people. In other words, Leave was going to result in an inferior outcome to Remain.
The thought of Lord Farage sitting in the Cabinet after standing in front of that poster makes me shudder.
Farage is coming nowhere bloody near a Leave Government.
Actually think Leadsom, Gove, May, Davidson, and others, will make a fantastic and sensible team, though.
Farage is the bogey-man being used to try and stop Leave.
"If Leave win, Farage will be in government"
"If you vote Leave, you will be a Faragette"
"Leave means you think like Farage"
Rinse, repeat.
It's not working either. It just looks childish and personal - it doesn't deliver what Remain needs to pull back.
It was on the personal leaflet sent to me by Remain. "Don't let Farage speak for you." He doesn't, Remain. He never will.... And him being a Leave voter won't stop me voting Leave. Any more than Osborne being for Remain won't stop Labour voters putting their cross against Remain, will it?
That's an outright LIE. Vote Leave have tried to keep their utmost distance away from him and were furious he was invited onto ITV. Considering you whine about what you call lying what makes you think you can get away with this LIE?
There's barely any point engaging in conversation with Scott you will only get another straw man in response.
Key to the prospect of Britain thriving outside the EU will be our ability to deliver on the Brexiteers’ claim that the EU will have a strong interest in offering us access to the single market. Much discussed has been the terms on which this might take place - ranging from the Norwegian and Swiss options to the South Korean and Albanian option. But what kind of deal will the EU give us? Surely, Brexiteers argue, given how much the EU relies on buying UK goods, they will not refuse a deal that would cause economic self-harm.
Well, actually, they might. In fact they probably will. To believe otherwise you’d have to think that statements such as that of German finance minister Schaeuble, insisting that Britain will not enjoy access to the Single Market if it left the EU, are pre-referendum bluffs. You would also have to believe that the EU is prepared to decide to offer the departing UK a deal that includes the main benefits of membership without the costs. Just why a club would find it in its interest to offer better terms to non-members than members is unexplained. Let alone why an EU, most of whose governments face an unprecedented surge in radical Eurosceptic populism, would give this amount of encouragement to anti-EU political forces in their own country.
It is a misunderstanding of the revealed preferences of Germany and other EU member state governments - who prize the integrity of the EU so strongly - to think that Britain will not pay a big trade penalty for initiating divorce proceedings. And it suggests a strange contradiction in Eurosceptic reasoning: the same people who believe that Britain is constantly frustrated by an intransigent EU while it is a member think that the minute we leave we will succeed in getting the trade deal of our dreams from Brussels."
Key to the prospect of Britain thriving outside the EU will be our ability to deliver on the Brexiteers’ claim that the EU will have a strong interest in offering us access to the single market. Much discussed has been the terms on which this might take place - ranging from the Norwegian and Swiss options to the South Korean and Albanian option. But what kind of deal will the EU give us? Surely, Brexiteers argue, given how much the EU relies on buying UK goods, they will not refuse a deal that would cause economic self-harm.
Well, actually, they might. In fact they probably will. To believe otherwise you’d have to think that statements such as that of German finance minister Schaeuble, insisting that Britain will not enjoy access to the Single Market if it left the EU, are pre-referendum bluffs. You would also have to believe that the EU is prepared to decide to offer the departing UK a deal that includes the main benefits of membership without the costs. Just why a club would find it in its interest to offer better terms to non-members than members is unexplained. Let alone why an EU, most of whose governments face an unprecedented surge in radical Eurosceptic populism, would give this amount of encouragement to anti-EU political forces in their own country.
It is a misunderstanding of the revealed preferences of Germany and other EU member state governments - who prize the integrity of the EU so strongly - to think that Britain will not pay a big trade penalty for initiating divorce proceedings. And it suggests a strange contradiction in Eurosceptic reasoning: the same people who believe that Britain is constantly frustrated by an intransigent EU while it is a member think that the minute we leave we will succeed in getting the trade deal of our dreams from Brussels."
Of course they are pre-referendum bluffs. Schaeuble will do anything he can to prevent a Brexit but once it has happened he will act in the best interests of his country and his own political career just like any other self serving politician (the first necessarily deriving from the second).
And again this all assumes we do not choose the EFTA route.
Nigel is not all Leavers, not even a majority. Remain keep making that mistake.
And yet Leavers have made no move to distance themselves from him
Funny that
That's an outright LIE. Vote Leave have tried to keep their utmost distance away from him and were furious he was invited onto ITV. Considering you whine about what you call lying what makes you think you can get away with this LIE?
Calm down dear and stop shouting. Just give us a few links to prominent Leavers condemning Farage's poster and we'll be satisfied.
Labour's message today is vote Remain because Boris, Gove Evil Tories. It failed when Eagles did it. They seem stuck in a rut.
Another tone deaf Remain message, in effect they are saying "Vote Cameron and Osborne" because of "Boris and Gove". How the hell is that supposed to work?
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
I have had a few gos at trying to answer your question, but since I consider REMAIN to be the moral course of action I can't answer your question without steering you to that verdict, and I sense you would not find that helpful.
So in the end all I can give you is: do as you consider right for yourself and your family, be neither cruel nor cowardly, and hope that your decision (whatever it is) will be one that you can live with thereafter. I hope that that is sufficient and good luck with whatever you decide.
Screw the morals, just vote remain Sean.
From what I've grasped from your PB postings, you're AB1 and old and live in London - it's in your Interest to remain.
Were you a 25 year old DE living in Stoke, Leave would be a no-brainer.
That's an outright LIE. Vote Leave have tried to keep their utmost distance away from him and were furious he was invited onto ITV. Considering you whine about what you call lying what makes you think you can get away with this LIE?
Post the official statement from Vote Leave, or Kate Hoey, or Boris, or Gove, distancing themselves from his poster launch this morning.
Otherwise keep quiet.
Vote Leave have nothing to do with this poster. But here's some statements you lying ignorant fool.
Besides I still believe the most likely result is EFTA membership.
Despite the fact that VoteLeave have explicitly rejected those options.
I am fairly confident that post-Brexit former Remainers will compromise with moderate Leavers for a consensus on the EEA, on the grounds it was the least of the evils. Leave were lying through their teeth about a ton of other things, why should they care about retaining freedom of movement when they said they would reduce immigration?
Whether the other players will accept the UK signing up to the EEA is open IMHO. It would be a classic EU "extend and pretend" move. OTOH the EU generally thinks the arrangement with Switzerland was a mistake, which they may be conscious of not repeating. Also Norway has said categorically that the EEA won't work for the UK. They are the main current player on the EFTA side.
AS I have said numerous times before we would not be 'signing up' to EEA membership as we are already a member and an independent signatory to the original treaty.
@Casino_Royale I appreciate that you disagree. But the article concisely explains that other things may well be more important to those on the other side of the table than short term economic impact.
Given that Leave's whole schtick is that there are more important things than short term economic impact, I would have hoped that you could at least accept the possibility that others might approach questions similarly.
Labour's message today is vote Remain because Boris, Gove Evil Tories. It failed when Eagles did it. They seem stuck in a rut.
Another tone deaf Remain message, in effect they are saying "Vote Cameron and Osborne" because of "Boris and Gove". How the hell is that supposed to work?
I don't think Gordon or McIRA thought that far ahead.
Wiki says the Syrian Civil War is one of her main campaigning issues, though not in what respect. Not to jump to conclusions, but that seems a more likely connection.
@Casino_Royale I appreciate that you disagree. But the article concisely explains that other things may well be more important to those on the other side of the table than short term economic impact.
Given that Leave's whole schtick is that there are more important things than short term economic impact, I would have hoped that you could at least accept the possibility that others might approach questions similarly.
I have laid out my thoughts on the EU's negotiating approach and I think these are far more anchored in fact.
Is Kate Hoey still a part of the Farage Leave campaign? If so, she should either immediately disown that poster or be expelled from the Labour party. That poster is among the most disgusting I have ever seen. Absolutely repulsive. What a revolting man Nigel Farage is, standing there grinning in front of something that demonises people fleeing from mass-murdering psychopaths.
I looked at it and winced. Then looked at it again and thought back over so many conversations with voters both during the GE campaign and more recently. And concluded the poster probably gets it right for its audience.
Farage and UKIP do what they want. On the issue about all this outrage from REMAINers, presumably this is reason number 201 from REMAIN as to why they going to win?
No, Remain will lose. And there is a proper and important discussion to be had about immigration. But the racism and xenophobia that Farage panders to has no part in it. Like Trump, Farage has thrown the dogwhistle away.
I'm in a quandary like SeanT in some ways.
I've been a Brexiteer because I worry about democracy and sovereignty (or lack of) immigration has never been a concern for me and finding myself on the same side of the debate as Farage and UKIP is very uncomfortable... In normal circumstances I rate these people as complete nut cases and would be ashamed to be associated with them as I'm sure has been noted over the years
This is the great pity of Cameron's lost renegotiation opportunity. Because of his lamentable failure to get a genuine deal that reforms our relationship with with the EU I've been forced to the same side as Farage... A place I'm very uncomfortable to be it must be said.
Simply ignore Farage - he's not even a MP, if we vote Brexit - he'll be out of that MEP job too. Think of Gisela and Hoey and Leadsom. They're the mainstream.
Oh really - link to where they have condemned that poster please.
I really wish we could get a view on how the EU would react. Or even some intelligent comment from somewhere on how they might react. Would they be shocked and seek to do a better deal? Or would they breathe a sigh of relief, accept that Britain's participation has not worked out well and wave us goodbye? And if the latter, what sort of a deal would we get?
It's not a monolithic organisation with a set position, it's a combination of 27 other states of differing political persuasions and each with their own interests to defend, a bureaucracy, and a rag-tag parliament with MEPs from all sorts of odd parties. There's no reason to suppose that all those disparate voices will react in the same way.
Even given all that they tend to end up with one position. And I'd still like to hear from them!
Given the campaign by Vote Leave and the public statements of Gove, Boris and other leading figures, I don't think there's any realistic chance of us applying for an EEA or EEA-style deal, even if one were on offer, which is looking increasingly unlikely.
Besides I still believe the most likely result is EFTA membership.
Despite the fact that VoteLeave have explicitly rejected those options.
VoteLeave will not be making that decision after Brexit. And as I pointed out the other day there is a clear majority for EFTA membership in the event of a Leave win.
Contrary to what other commentators on here have said about that poster, it's not a picture of people fleeing persecution, it was taken on the Serbia/Slovenia border. Some of the people in the picture may have originally fled war torn Syria but they have passed through many other countries where they were perfectly safe including Turkey and Greece. It's also been found that many of those who made that crossing are not originally from Syria but people from numerous other countries seeking to enter Europe on the back of the Syrian crisis.
Given the campaign by Vote Leave and the public statements of Gove, Boris and other leading figures, I don't think there's any realistic chance of us applying for an EEA or EEA-style deal, even if one were on offer, which is looking increasingly unlikely.
Why do you say EFTA membership is looking increasingly unlikely to be offered? In fact all the recent statements from politicians in places like Norway and Iceland have been more favourable.
Even given all that they tend to end up with one position. And I'd still like to hear from them!
Well, I suppose they'll have to end up with one position, but my point is more that even they can't tell you now what it would be. There will be a range of views at the moment (plus a lot may depend on how the financial markets react).
Comments
Farage is the bogey-man being used to try and stop Leave.
"If Leave win, Farage will be in government"
"If you vote Leave, you will be a Faragette"
"Leave means you think like Farage"
Rinse, repeat.
Unlike the undemocratic EU where elections don't decide policy.
http://news.sky.com/story/1712859/pm-steps-up-a-gear-and-calls-in-clarkson
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-offers-nigel-farage-8199899
The EEA = EU + Switzerland + Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market. (Government website)
If not then presumably this is one thing up for negotiation. As I work in Insurance I would remind people that the EHIC is not a substitute for travel insurance - I would also mention that many insurance companies rate the whole of Europe at one rate (as well as some currently covering the North African coastal countries and Israel.)
Although she seems a bit shy today
Meanwhile millions are hugely unhappy with our EU relationship *now*, and we will be treated as a sullen, resentful (but ultimately cowardly) awkward child if we stay. Remaining solves absolutely nothing, and we will get nothing, except giving into our fears.
There's a decade of uncertainty alright; that's if we stay.
We must get this done and get this done quickly.
Haste? 40 ***** years!
Bear in mind that the UK's central policy objective for centuries has been to preserve the balance of power in Europe. Creating a non-EU non-euro zone power centre is now the only real way to do this, politically.
"Opinion polls suggest UK citizens in Gibraltar will vote to remain in the EU, amid concerns its border with Spain would be closed if Britain left,"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36548175
https://twitter.com/journostephen/status/743424256130842624
Proven formula...
Leave have left themselves very vulnerable to this sort of thing.
What surprises me most is Crick playing along.
Funny that
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/stewart-wood/brexit-eu-referendum_b_10479582.html
"2. Securing a new trade deal with the EU
Key to the prospect of Britain thriving outside the EU will be our ability to deliver on the Brexiteers’ claim that the EU will have a strong interest in offering us access to the single market. Much discussed has been the terms on which this might take place - ranging from the Norwegian and Swiss options to the South Korean and Albanian option. But what kind of deal will the EU give us? Surely, Brexiteers argue, given how much the EU relies on buying UK goods, they will not refuse a deal that would cause economic self-harm.
Well, actually, they might. In fact they probably will. To believe otherwise you’d have to think that statements such as that of German finance minister Schaeuble, insisting that Britain will not enjoy access to the Single Market if it left the EU, are pre-referendum bluffs. You would also have to believe that the EU is prepared to decide to offer the departing UK a deal that includes the main benefits of membership without the costs. Just why a club would find it in its interest to offer better terms to non-members than members is unexplained. Let alone why an EU, most of whose governments face an unprecedented surge in radical Eurosceptic populism, would give this amount of encouragement to anti-EU political forces in their own country.
It is a misunderstanding of the revealed preferences of Germany and other EU member state governments - who prize the integrity of the EU so strongly - to think that Britain will not pay a big trade penalty for initiating divorce proceedings. And it suggests a strange contradiction in Eurosceptic reasoning: the same people who believe that Britain is constantly frustrated by an intransigent EU while it is a member think that the minute we leave we will succeed in getting the trade deal of our dreams from Brussels."
So in the end all I can give you is: do as you consider right for yourself and your family, be neither cruel nor cowardly, and hope that your decision (whatever it is) will be one that you can live with thereafter. I hope that that is sufficient and good luck with whatever you decide.
Whether the other players will accept the UK signing up to the EEA is open IMHO. It would be a classic EU "extend and pretend" move. OTOH the EU generally thinks the arrangement with Switzerland was a mistake, which they may be conscious of not repeating. Also Norway has said categorically that the EEA won't work for the UK. They are the main current player on the EFTA side.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304
Otherwise keep quiet.
Will it?
And again this all assumes we do not choose the EFTA route.
From what I've grasped from your PB postings, you're AB1 and old and live in London - it's in your Interest to remain.
Were you a 25 year old DE living in Stoke, Leave would be a no-brainer.
Heart goes out to her.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36273499
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-vote-leave-furious-as-itv-announces-debate-between-nigel-farage-and-david-cameron-a7025226.html
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/12/vote-leave-lambasts-itv-over-eu-debate-between-cameron-and-farage
Attacked at a surgery could be any lunatic. Didn't it happen to Stephen Timms?
Given that Leave's whole schtick is that there are more important things than short term economic impact, I would have hoped that you could at least accept the possibility that others might approach questions similarly.
So I am not the one who is lying, or ignorant
That huff post article is so bias it's unreal.
Loose-cannon Farage was always at risk of doing his own Me! Me! Me! thing.
I really hope I'm wrong and that she's ok.
Some of the people in the picture may have originally fled war torn Syria but they have passed through many other countries where they were perfectly safe including Turkey and Greece.
It's also been found that many of those who made that crossing are not originally from Syria but people from numerous other countries seeking to enter Europe on the back of the Syrian crisis.
Both sides need to be careful how they handle this, could blow up in either or both faces. Cool heads please.
Shot in the street. Guy looked in his 60s
Hope this isn't something major in Yorkshire.