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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439

    Mr. Eagles, are you suggesting the nation's foremost shampoo salesman wasn't up to the job?

    He was as useful as a condom with a hole in both ends.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,172

    John_M said:

    Good afternoon all. Terrible to hear about Jo Cox. I have no words.

    Terrible indeed. But not surprising. And there will be others. Representative democracy is finished.

    Really!!!!? 1 strange incident doesn't mean anything.....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Thank you, Wayne!

    I noticed Rooney being conspicuously static - he's never managed more than a jog-trot until he jumps up in a hissy-fit and gives away an unnecessary free kick. Whose side is he on? Take him off at half-time and bring the team back up to full strength.
  • I think people should be wary of jumping to conclusions. And shame on anyone trying to make political calital out of it.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Thoughts with Jo Cox and family. What an utter awful event.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2016
    Careful. That may be the other victim...

    The arrest was made an hour after the attack.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    The poster by ukip today looks a whole lot worse if it is EDL/Britain first remember their members have no qualms about breaking the law.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630

    Remain backed into 1.58 on the motive of the shooting.

    FFS.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Pulpstar said:

    Oh, and who was it who gave away the free kick?

    Rooney.
    Yeah, that was a rhetorical question. Wayne "first name on the team sheet" Rooney.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Wales at 55 to win the tournament has to be value, right? DYOR
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    BBC: "There is now an armed presence at the hospital".

    Politics is dirty, and people will try to make political capital out of it. For example, what else is it when Boris Johnson and Labour In both "stop campaigning"?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872

    What a strike!

    A decent keeper should save that.
    *Might* have saved it.

    A free kick from 30 yards on target is a bit of an exception in the games I've watched so far.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Maria Eagle just had to get that tweet in, that this person "allegedly" shouted Britain First. This bloody woman is just the pits. The worse kind of tribal politician. There is no sewer that she won't climb into to make a point. Disgusting.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    viewcode said:

    Besides I still believe the most likely result is EFTA membership.

    Despite the fact that VoteLeave have explicitly rejected those options.
    I am fairly confident that post-Brexit former Remainers will compromise with moderate Leavers for a consensus on the EEA, on the grounds it was the least of the evils. Leave were lying through their teeth about a ton of other things, why should they care about retaining freedom of movement when they said they would reduce immigration?

    Whether the other players will accept the UK signing up to the EEA is open IMHO. It would be a classic EU "extend and pretend" move. OTOH the EU generally thinks the arrangement with Switzerland was a mistake, which they may be conscious of not repeating. Also Norway has said categorically that the EEA won't work for the UK. They are the main current player on the EFTA side.
    AS I have said numerous times before we would not be 'signing up' to EEA membership as we are already a member and an independent signatory to the original treaty.
    The UK is part of the EEA by dint of being also member of the EU. If the UK loses its EU membership it will have to join EFTA to continue with the EEA. There are important questions of jurisdiction. Now could the EU block re-accession to the EEA via EFTA? (Leaving aside the question of whether EFTA member Norway would also do the same). Technically EFTA membership isn't under the control of the EU but I it would be foolish to assume they can't stop us getting into the EEA
    I've now read through the EEA agreement (http://www.efta.int/media/documents/legal-texts/eea/the-eea-agreement/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf) and I'm afraid I have changed my mind. I no longer share Richard's view that we would automatically join the EEA should we become a member of EFTA.

    My interpretation rests on two pillars:

    1. While the treaty uses the words "EFTA states" a lot, it specifically defines that term to mean "Norway, Iceland and Litchenstein".
    2. The treaty contains specific provisions regarding new members of the EU becoming automatically party to the agreement. There is no corresponding text regarding new members of EFTA.

    Based on this, I'm now fairly certain that us joining EFTA would not automatically lead to us being a member of the EEA.

    Perhaps one of our resident lawyers could have a read and see if my interpretation is correct.
    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    edited June 2016

    What a strike!

    A decent keeper should save that.
    *Might* have saved it.

    A free kick from 30 yards on target is a bit of an exception in the games I've watched so far.
    You've been raised on a diet of Scottish goalkeepers, we expect better in England.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Joe Hart too busy thinking about Katie price lol
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2016

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215

    Remain backed into 1.58 on the motive of the shooting.

    FFS.
    With Betfair, Cameron could get a papercut and Remain would be backed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,454
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Fuck off.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649

    FF43 said:

    I feel sick to the stomach about the shooting. I pray Jo Cox pulls through.

    Seconded.
    Woe betide anyone who tries to exploit this heinous act.
    According to Twitter Vote Leave are suspending campaigning. Reported that the assailant shouted "Britain first". Maybe SeanT's black swan. So sad.
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    (deleted)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,673
    CD13 said:

    Thank you, Wayne!

    I noticed Rooney being conspicuously static - he's never managed more than a jog-trot until he jumps up in a hissy-fit and gives away an unnecessary free kick. Whose side is he on? Take him off at half-time and bring the team back up to full strength.

    Haven't really followed English football since Euro 2004. Did Wayne live up to his early promise?
  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Disgraceful that you would choose, twenty minutes after the incident has taken place, to weaponise it when we don't even know the suspect, motive or anything.

    Retract that appalling comment.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @journodave: 'It looked as though he had been waiting for her' an eyewitness tells BBC on Jo Cox shooting
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,240
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Piss off. Nobody in the Leave campaign has incited violence against campaigners for Remain.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    Viceroy said:

    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Disgraceful that you would choose, twenty minutes after the incident has taken place, to weaponise it when we don't even know the suspect, motive or anything.
    An unfortunate choice of words...
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Pong

    'No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.'


    Try not to be a complete moron.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Jeez. Just stop. That's beyond contempt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,454

    John_M said:

    Good afternoon all. Terrible to hear about Jo Cox. I have no words.

    Terrible indeed. But not surprising. And there will be others. Representative democracy is finished.


    Were you saying this when the IRA were blowing up a Tory MP in the House of Parliament? Jeez...
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649

    CD13 said:

    Thank you, Wayne!

    I noticed Rooney being conspicuously static - he's never managed more than a jog-trot until he jumps up in a hissy-fit and gives away an unnecessary free kick. Whose side is he on? Take him off at half-time and bring the team back up to full strength.

    Haven't really followed English football since Euro 2004. Did Wayne live up to his early promise?
    Rooney off, Vardy on go 4-4-2 would be the obvious move from Hodgson.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Scott_P said:

    @journodave: 'It looked as though he had been waiting for her' an eyewitness tells BBC on Jo Cox shooting

    Yes, sounds brutal

    "The attack took place near the town's library where she held advice surgeries.

    An eyewitness said the 41-year-old mother of two was left lying in a pool of blood on the pavement after her assailant struck in Birstall, West Yorkshire.

    Hichem Ben Abdallah said: "He was kicking her as she was lying on the floor."

    He said that after a bystander intervened, the attacker produced a gun, stepped back and shot her twice."

    http://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/MP-shot-in-Leeds-Politicians-offer-prayers


  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    RodCrosby said:

    Careful. That may be the other victim...

    The arrest was made an hour after the attack.
    Horrendous news - but as you say - that person has blood coming from them.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Yes of course, the first thing any of us should consider is whether or not some loon is going to kick off. That's just a despicable thing to say, though I doubt you'll feel any shame.

    I notice you conveniently omit any Brexit Labour luminaries. So, an ill-timed, ill-thought-through and wholly partisan remark. Bleh. Disgusting.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    Viceroy said:

    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    Disgraceful that you would choose, twenty minutes after the incident has taken place, to weaponise it when we don't even know the suspect, motive or anything.

    Retract that appalling comment.
    That is an utterly disgusting post.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872
    edited June 2016

    What a strike!

    A decent keeper should save that.
    *Might* have saved it.

    A free kick from 30 yards on target is a bit of an exception in the games I've watched so far.
    You've been raised on a diet of Scottish goalkeepers, we expect better in England.
    Scottish goalkeepers are not where our main problem lies. Free kick takers otoh...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,280
    Pong said:

    Please don't let this lunatic speak for anyone but himself. He is a madman. Nothing to do with the referendum.

    No.

    Boris, Gove Farage et al knew what they were doing when they chose to sing from the Britain First hymnbook.
    You don't know who the attacker is, what his motive was, what happened nor what he did or did not say. And yet you choose to draw predetermined conclusions.

    That reflects very badly on you.

    At this point there is an MP, a wife and mother seriously injured and all decent people will be hoping that she makes a full and speedy recovery.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited June 2016
    pbr2013 said:

    CD13 said:

    Thank you, Wayne!

    I noticed Rooney being conspicuously static - he's never managed more than a jog-trot until he jumps up in a hissy-fit and gives away an unnecessary free kick. Whose side is he on? Take him off at half-time and bring the team back up to full strength.

    Haven't really followed English football since Euro 2004. Did Wayne live up to his early promise?
    Rooney off, Vardy on go 4-4-2 would be the obvious move from Hodgson.
    Sturridge & vardy on....
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    I don't believe for one moment that the person who shot her shouted "Britain First". Is the source Maria Eagle's tweet?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    @corbynjokes
    @corbynjokes
    Why is Joe Hart like Ed Miliband?
    They were both beaten because they were incapable of moving to the left.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893
    Terrible news about the MP. Wishing her a speedy recovery!
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    John_N4 said:

    I don't believe for one moment that the person who shot her shouted "Britain First". Is the source Maria Eagle's tweet?

    We don't know. Let's think of Jo Cox, pray for her recovery and wait for official statement(s).
  • John_N4 said:

    I don't believe for one moment that the person who shot her shouted "Britain First". Is the source Maria Eagle's tweet?

    She was quoting Sky News, who were quoting the Manchester Evening News, who were quoting Sky News or Twitter.

    We know nothing at all - 'Sky Sources' is mainly Twitter these days.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    edited June 2016
    Horrible about Jo Cox. Whatever their views, MPs have had the guts (unlike us keyboard warriors) to stand up and argue and fight for their opinons.

    Are we still living in the la-la land where EEA/EFTA membership comes with no free movement or are we saying forget what the proles overwhelmingly will have voted for, they don't quite understand the issues and we are happy with free movement?

    Edit: NPXMPX2 I grant you the honour of being both an MP (ex) and a keyboard warrior.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2016

    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    That's correct, but irrelevant. The EEA Agreement confers rights in different places on Contracting Parties, EC Member States and EFTA States. Britain is definitely a Contracting Party. It is definitely not an EFTA State (these are explicitly defined as the three EEA countries, with no provision for dynamically changing the list, and membership of EFTA is clearly not sufficient to make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement, since Switzerland is not). It's unclear whether we'd be an 'EC Member State' if we left - oddly, it isn't defined - but one assumes not.

    The key point is that we wouldn't automatically migrate from one side of the agreement to the other; it would have to be modified. By any standard it's a major modification of our status under the agreement, so would obviously require the consent of all parties.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Eye witness statement on the Guardian website mentions no "Britain First" shout by assailant.

    "Abdallah said the weapon looked handmade and that the man who had been wrestling with the assailant continued to do so even after he saw the gun.

    He said: “The man stepped back with the gun and fired it and then he fired a second shot, as he was firing he was looking down at the ground.”

    The whole incident lasted about 15 to 20 minutes, Mr Abdallah said and another bystander told him she had also been stabbed.

    He added: “He was kicking her and he was pulling her by her hair. A very courageous man from the dry cleaners tried to restrain him and he couldn’t stop him because all of a sudden he pulled a gun.

    “She was a standing still target for him when he shot her.”

    We shall see. First priority is to hope Jo makes a full recovery.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    My understanding is that we are a contracting party in our own right. Where the treaty refers to EC Member States, that is a term defined in the text to be the list of states mentioned. Until the treaty is amended we would still be an EC Member State as far as the treaty is concerned, even if we were not.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Vote Leave and BSE have both suspended campaigns.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,228
    edited June 2016
    weejonnie said:

    Eye witness statement on the Guardian website mentions no "Britain First" shout by assailant.

    "Abdallah said the weapon looked handmade and that the man who had been wrestling with the assailant continued to do so even after he saw the gun.

    He said: “The man stepped back with the gun and fired it and then he fired a second shot, as he was firing he was looking down at the ground.”

    The whole incident lasted about 15 to 20 minutes, Mr Abdallah said and another bystander told him she had also been stabbed.

    He added: “He was kicking her and he was pulling her by her hair. A very courageous man from the dry cleaners tried to restrain him and he couldn’t stop him because all of a sudden he pulled a gun.

    “She was a standing still target for him when he shot her.”

    We shall see. First priority is to hope Jo makes a full recovery.

    Sounds absolutely an brutal and frenzied attack...
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Stronger In ‏@StrongerIn 21m21 minutes ago

    We are suspending all campaigning for the day. Our thoughts are with Jo Cox and her family.
    369 retweets 268 likes
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited June 2016
    Wales already running the clock down. Classic italian tactics...I blame Europe ;-)
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    John_M said:

    John_N4 said:

    I don't believe for one moment that the person who shot her shouted "Britain First". Is the source Maria Eagle's tweet?

    We don't know. Let's think of Jo Cox, pray for her recovery and wait for official statement(s).
    I hope she recovers, but that isn't going to stop me exercising my critical faculties.

    Those who tell lies about such events often get their lies in very early, to shape the narrative.

    Guido and the Independent are sourcing the "Britain First" allegation to Maria Eagle. Where did she hear it from, and why was she the first to say it publicly?
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    John_N4 said:

    I don't believe for one moment that the person who shot her shouted "Britain First". Is the source Maria Eagle's tweet?

    I am sure the facts will come out over the course of the day. I may have been too hasty in my post earlier.
  • Im appalled that the Tele and Mail have quoted this Britain First claim.

    BBC online, Guardian and Indy have not to their credit
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    My understanding is that we are a contracting party in our own right. Where the treaty refers to EC Member States, that is a term defined in the text to be the list of states mentioned. Until the treaty is amended we would still be an EC Member State as far as the treaty is concerned, even if we were not.
    We are a contracting party. But the treaty specifically talks about granting the EFTA states certain rights. As we wouldn't be included as one of the EFTA states, we wouldn't be granted the rights!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344
    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Varrrrdyyyyy
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    Jamie vardy having a party........
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Vardy!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    My understanding is that we are a contracting party in our own right. Where the treaty refers to EC Member States, that is a term defined in the text to be the list of states mentioned. Until the treaty is amended we would still be an EC Member State as far as the treaty is concerned, even if we were not.
    We are a contracting party. But the treaty specifically talks about granting the EFTA states certain rights. As we wouldn't be included as one of the EFTA states, we wouldn't be granted the rights!
    So how come countries moved from EFTA to the EU with no treaty amendment?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Im appalled that the Tele and Mail have quoted this Britain First claim.

    BBC online, Guardian and Indy have not to their credit

    The press are quick to go with alleged Allahu Akbar shouts, Paul.

    There can be no double standards.

    It's right for all, or right for none.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,751
    I think it is jolly unsporting of England to play with 11 men in this second half.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,797
    The facts that both campaigns have suspended for the day makes me feel pessimistic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
    Article 128 covers that. One applies to be a member of the EEA, it is not automatic.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344

    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    That's correct, but irrelevant. The EEA Agreement confers rights in different places on Contracting Parties, EC Member States and EFTA States. Britain is definitely a Contracting Party. It is definitely not an EFTA State (these are explicitly defined as the three EEA countries, with no provision for dynamically changing the list, and membership of EFTA is clearly not sufficient to make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement, since Switzerland is not). It's unclear whether we'd be an 'EC Member State' if we left - oddly, it isn't defined - but one assumes not.

    The key point is that we wouldn't automatically migrate from one side of the agreement to the other; it would have to be modified. By any standard it's a major modification of our status under the agreement, so would obviously require the consent of all parties.
    So as I asked Robert, how come no amendment was made when countries moved the other way? Do please check but I am correct. Apart from a footnote that they have moved from EFTA to the EU there is no amendment to the treaty
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    We're all watching the game on our computers. We're getting spoilers from the pub two doors down...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    My understanding is that we are a contracting party in our own right. Where the treaty refers to EC Member States, that is a term defined in the text to be the list of states mentioned. Until the treaty is amended we would still be an EC Member State as far as the treaty is concerned, even if we were not.
    We are a contracting party. But the treaty specifically talks about granting the EFTA states certain rights. As we wouldn't be included as one of the EFTA states, we wouldn't be granted the rights!
    Maybe I'm wrong but I read some significance into the way the list of parties is structured on page 4. We would be an EC state until a technical amendment to move us from one list to the other. I think Richard is right that this is the case.

    Politically whether this is feasible is another matter.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893

    We're all watching the game on our computers. We're getting spoilers from the pub two doors down...

    Earmuffs and subtitles? :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    Two massive handballs from Wales now in the match.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    RobD said:

    We're all watching the game on our computers. We're getting spoilers from the pub two doors down...

    Earmuffs and subtitles? :D
    Go to the pub?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    DavidL said:

    I think it is jolly unsporting of England to play with 11 men in this second half.

    https://twitter.com/sterling7/status/363942831565860864
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439

    NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,751

    DavidL said:

    I think it is jolly unsporting of England to play with 11 men in this second half.

    https://twitter.com/sterling7/status/363942831565860864
    Well he kept his word. Really strange selection.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
    Article 128 covers that. One applies to be a member of the EEA, it is not automatic.
    No it doesn't. Article 128 applies to countries coming into the EEA from outside either EFTA or the EU. Sweden and Finland did not have to reapply.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    That's correct, but irrelevant. The EEA Agreement confers rights in different places on Contracting Parties, EC Member States and EFTA States. Britain is definitely a Contracting Party. It is definitely not an EFTA State (these are explicitly defined as the three EEA countries, with no provision for dynamically changing the list, and membership of EFTA is clearly not sufficient to make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement, since Switzerland is not). It's unclear whether we'd be an 'EC Member State' if we left - oddly, it isn't defined - but one assumes not.

    The key point is that we wouldn't automatically migrate from one side of the agreement to the other; it would have to be modified. By any standard it's a major modification of our status under the agreement, so would obviously require the consent of all parties.
    So as I asked Robert, how come no amendment was made when countries moved the other way? Do please check but I am correct. Apart from a footnote that they have moved from EFTA to the EU there is no amendment to the treaty
    The treaty was amended. If you look at page 4 of the treaty, it lists the parties and under which category they fall.

    So, those countries were moved from having the rights and obligations of EFTA countries to the rights and obligations of EU (or as it says in this treaty EC) countries.

    The modification of the treaty will have required the signature of all the parties.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058
    Lalana doing a great audition for swan lake to even up the handball from Wales.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Vardy on a mere 135 minutes to late.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    So as I asked Robert, how come no amendment was made when countries moved the other way? Do please check but I am correct. Apart from a footnote that they have moved from EFTA to the EU there is no amendment to the treaty

    As Robert says, there is provision for countries joining the EU. However, there is no provision in the Agreement for countries leaving the EU; the possibility doesn't seem to have occurred to whoever drafted the Agreement.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344
    rcs1000 said:

    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    That's correct, but irrelevant. The EEA Agreement confers rights in different places on Contracting Parties, EC Member States and EFTA States. Britain is definitely a Contracting Party. It is definitely not an EFTA State (these are explicitly defined as the three EEA countries, with no provision for dynamically changing the list, and membership of EFTA is clearly not sufficient to make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement, since Switzerland is not). It's unclear whether we'd be an 'EC Member State' if we left - oddly, it isn't defined - but one assumes not.

    The key point is that we wouldn't automatically migrate from one side of the agreement to the other; it would have to be modified. By any standard it's a major modification of our status under the agreement, so would obviously require the consent of all parties.
    So as I asked Robert, how come no amendment was made when countries moved the other way? Do please check but I am correct. Apart from a footnote that they have moved from EFTA to the EU there is no amendment to the treaty
    The treaty was amended. If you look at page 4 of the treaty, it lists the parties and under which category they fall.

    So, those countries were moved from having the rights and obligations of EFTA countries to the rights and obligations of EU (or as it says in this treaty EC) countries.

    The modification of the treaty will have required the signature of all the parties.
    It was done without formal amendment - again covered by the 1969 Convention and did not require formal agreement by all the countries.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
    Article 128 covers that. One applies to be a member of the EEA, it is not automatic.
    No it doesn't. Article 128 applies to countries coming into the EEA from outside either EFTA or the EU. Sweden and Finland did not have to reapply.
    Shall we check? My contention is that the modification of the treaty will have required the signature of the parties.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,575
    edited June 2016

    The facts that both campaigns have suspended for the day makes me feel pessimistic.

    Me too. I think that it is a mistake by the campaigns. I can understand it but it appears to link the grievous event with the campaigns. That might encourage other nutters. It would be better for both campaigns to express sorrow, revulsion and condemnation then carry on (but lower the temperature).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,307
    'Eyewitness Hithem Ben Abdallah, 56, was in the cafe next door to the library shortly after 1pm when he heard screaming and went outside.

    He told the Press Association: “There was a guy who was being very brave and another guy with a white baseball cap who he was trying to control and the man in the baseball cap suddenly pulled a gun from his bag.”

    After a brief scuffle, he said the man stepped back and the MP became involved.

    He added: “He was fighting with her and wrestling with her and then the gun went off twice and then she fell between two cars and I came and saw her bleeding on the floor.”

    After around 15 minutes, the shop owner said emergency services arrived and tended to her with a drip.'

    'Abdallah said the weapon looked handmade and that the man who had been wrestling with the assailant continued to do so even after he saw the gun.

    He said: “The man stepped back with the gun and fired it and then he fired a second shot, as he was firing he was looking down at the ground.”

    The whole incident lasted about 15 to 20 minutes, Mr Abdallah said and another bystander told him she had also been stabbed.

    He added: “He was kicking her and he was pulling her by her hair. A very courageous man from the dry cleaners tried to restrain him and he couldn’t stop him because all of a sudden he pulled a gun.

    “She was a standing still target for him when he shot her.”

    No words.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:

    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    That's correct, but irrelevant. The EEA Agreement confers rights in different places on Contracting Parties, EC Member States and EFTA States. Britain is definitely a Contracting Party. It is definitely not an EFTA State (these are explicitly defined as the three EEA countries, with no provision for dynamically changing the list, and membership of EFTA is clearly not sufficient to make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement, since Switzerland is not). It's unclear whether we'd be an 'EC Member State' if we left - oddly, it isn't defined - but one assumes not.

    The key point is that we wouldn't automatically migrate from one side of the agreement to the other; it would have to be modified. By any standard it's a major modification of our status under the agreement, so would obviously require the consent of all parties.
    So as I asked Robert, how come no amendment was made when countries moved the other way? Do please check but I am correct. Apart from a footnote that they have moved from EFTA to the EU there is no amendment to the treaty
    The treaty was amended. If you look at page 4 of the treaty, it lists the parties and under which category they fall.

    So, those countries were moved from having the rights and obligations of EFTA countries to the rights and obligations of EU (or as it says in this treaty EC) countries.

    The modification of the treaty will have required the signature of all the parties.
    It was done without formal amendment - again covered by the 1969 Convention and did not require formal agreement by all the countries.
    Are you sure? The words of the treaty were changed without the agreement of all the parties?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
    Article 128 covers that. One applies to be a member of the EEA, it is not automatic.
    No it doesn't. Article 128 applies to countries coming into the EEA from outside either EFTA or the EU. Sweden and Finland did not have to reapply.
    Shall we check? My contention is that the modification of the treaty will have required the signature of the parties.
    EEA enlargement, which is slightly different, does have a signed amendment by the parties. Interestingly in 2007 each EU state signed individually, but in 2014 there was a single signature on behalf of the EU.

    http://www.efta.int/legal-texts/eea-enlargement
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    The important point is that as an independent signatory we cannot be removed. The 1969 Convention on the Law of Treaties is very clear on this.

    But the treaty is between two sets of contracting parties:
    The EU states (of which the UK is one) and the EFTA states (ex Switzerland). So, when it says it Article 16: "no discrimination regarding the condition under which goods are procured and marketed will exist between nationals of EC Member States and EFTA States."

    Here's the problem: we aren't - as is define in the treaty - an EFTA state.
    That would be the case if it was a treaty between the EEC/EU and EFTA but it is not. It is a multinational treaty between many different countries each of whom signs in their own right. Indeed the treaty has been amended as other countries have joined since its original drafting.

    Moreover when Portugal, Finland and Sweden left EFTA and joined the EU in 1986 and 1995 they remained in the EEA and no amendment was made beyond a footnote explaining that this had happened.
    Article 128 covers that. One applies to be a member of the EEA, it is not automatic.
    No it doesn't. Article 128 applies to countries coming into the EEA from outside either EFTA or the EU. Sweden and Finland did not have to reapply.
    Shall we check? My contention is that the modification of the treaty will have required the signature of the parties.
    EEA enlargement, which is slightly different, does have a signed amendment by the parties. Interestingly in 2007 each EU state signed individually, but in 2014 there was a single signature on behalf of the EU.

    http://www.efta.int/legal-texts/eea-enlargement
    So the amending of the text of treaty required the signature of the parties.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    Walker has a touch of the Ashley Coles about him, more muscular, though.
This discussion has been closed.