Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
Here's a moral paradox, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
I'd have thought the key markets for an English publisher would be the UK (+ Australia) and the USA (+ Canada). Why would Brexit impact an English publisher?
Doesn't the BoE announce its interest rate decision today. The devil in me says that it will raise because of mkt uncertainty with a promise to cut if we stay in the EU which will according to Carney bring the economy back to the status quo. Far fetched I know but a lot of what has been going on has been far fetched.
Here's a moral paradox, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Vote Remain.
I had hoped and expected that you would come around to that view. I had given up.
Despite your frequent sabre-rattling on here you are clearly a good man.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
A realignment is entirely feasible. But less of the "moderate".
From Labour's perspective who are the "moderates". The people despairing that their voters are voting for bigotry and racism. The people who abstained on welfare cuts to the poorest. The people who think the best alternative to Tory privatisation and marketisation is Labour privatisation and marketisation.
When you are that far removed from your own party membership and more importantly the electorate you are not "moderate".
A new One Nation party with Cameron Clegg and Blair aficionados all on board. A marvellous prospect for all of us who want to see a return to proper Tory and Labour parties.
How close to the electorate do you think that Labour's anti-Trident, pro-open door immigration membership is?
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
I think that they will find that their nightmares are just that ......nightmares, after Brexit.
The moral course is to be the canary in the coalmine. Summon up all your powers of rhetoric to convince your fellow Leavers that we'd should embrace a European future.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
They wouldn't come into Britain as a line of refugees. They might come in as individuals and settled German citizens. Even after Brexit it is going to be difficult to discriminate between Germans of different racial backgrounds.
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
He was wrong to go around shouting 'Save the Pound'. He helped debase the argument on Europe because he had nothing to offer the public on anything the public cared about in 2001.
He was only wrong because he believed Labour's manifesto promise to join the Euro. In retrospect a silly mistake, of course, but one easily made at the time.
Quick question for the Conservative Remainers. Put yourself forward a week after Britain has decided for better or worse to vote "Brexit".
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
Genuine question.
No, another coalition would have kept the maniacs in their caves.
Quick question for the Conservative Remainers. Put yourself forward a week after Britain has decided for better or worse to vote "Brexit".
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
Genuine question.
No. This referendum had to happen sometime.
Yes, I agree with you there. This whole EU-bogeyman thing has been deeply unhealthy. It's been a morbid national obsession for too long. The social consequences will probably be dire, but there will be psychological benefits for many Leavers: they can finally have some peace.
The moral course is to be the canary in the coalmine. Summon up all your powers of rhetoric to convince your fellow Leavers that we'd should embrace a European future.
Nothing wrong with a European Future - just not an EU one.
And if you think it's better for your kids, that's perhaps how you should vote.
Consider whether you want us to leave. If you do, vote that way. Short term pain for long term gain is rational. The reverse is irrational, and cowardly.
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
What restrictions have they introduced? My understanding is that they have actually done very little out of concern for putting access to the single market at risk.
It's complicated. Liechtenstein and Iceland are in the EEA; Switzerland isn't in the EEA but has a separate bilateral arrangement.
Liechtenstein negotiated a partial opt out of the key EEA freedom of movement principle, where EEA citizens are allowed to work in the principality but (mostly) not to live there. As the liveable, non-mountainous area of Liechtenstein is about the size of the postage stamps they flog, that's understandable. It was supposed to be a temporary arrangement but seems to have become permanent, as these things do.
Switzerland held a referendum in 2014 to restrict EU immigration into the country in contravention of the bilateral agreements. This move has been rejected by the EU, but is supposed to come in unilaterally next year, per the referendum question. It's an ongoing dispute.
Iceland pulled the emergency brake on freedom of movement - the article in the EEA treaty that Max refers to - in 2008 along with capital controls etc. In principle this is still a temporary measure.
I think this highlights the difficulty the UK has with the EU. The EU seems to adopt and apply these treaty commitments as they please and no one minds. The UK regards the treaty commitments as important and applies them even if they're not in the UK's best interest.
This could also be interpreted as the UK believing in the rule of law.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
To forge both on a personal level (with your friends, family, neighbourhood) and help forge in the national/political sphere a bright future for Britain outside the EU. Having left the EU we may all find some of those we know who need assistance in the brave new world. But I think we both believe that it will all be worth it in the end.
Leave is the harder choice, with greater risks (remaining has risk too though of course). But the rewards are potentially greater too. A global-minded independent Britain really can achieve much, but it will have to be worked for.
Remaining is safer in the short term and suits those who are comfortable in life now.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Your friends are right to be worried. I would be very concerned were I not financially secure. But you must vote with your conscience. To thine own self be true.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
Have you decided who you are voting for?
No - not yet. I will post my vote before setting off for Dover in my car. So I have until Sunday evening.
I am finding this the most difficult head/heart decision, to be perfectly frank. I am a European. English is not my mother tongue. My extended family lives in at least 5 Continental countries. I would like to be a Remain because I think that the ideal of a co-operative Europe is a good one. But my experience of working in Brussels and dealing with innumerable Directives has made me very disillusioned. It has gone off the rails and a proper renegotiation should have been a good chance to move it in a better direction for the sake of a lot of countries in Europe, not just Britain. So I am reasonably clear in my own mind about what I think about the EU and about what I would like the EU and Britain in the EU to be.
It is the consequences for British politics which are troubling me.
Perhaps it's me but I heard Osborne on the radio yesterday and it didn't incite the reaction which it seems to have in others. If the facts change as a result of a vote of course a Chancellor has to look at his budget again. That seems to me to be no more than a statement of the obvious. But a period of prolonged political uncertainty with all sorts of people in charge who lack gravitas and judgment and thought is worrying. The "push" factor may be clear. The "pull" factor much less so. Indeed some of the Leave leaders or leave MPs seem to be doing their best to push people away from them. Too much of this seems to me to be animated by some private vendetta against Cameron and Osborne, about which I don't give a toss, frankly.
How are those in government going to manage a fractured party and lead - in a "steady under fire" sort of way - a fractured country with lots of people having vented and having, possibly, hopelessly overoptimistic expectations?
At this precise moment I'm rather wishing that both sides could lose.
Isn't that £35:00 with a nought added for a laugh???
If leave win - some high rollers are going to get badly burnt. I would have thought Farage would have put some money on Leave though - if only for the publicity.
Doesn't the BoE announce its interest rate decision today. The devil in me says that it will raise because of mkt uncertainty with a promise to cut if we stay in the EU which will according to Carney bring the economy back to the status quo. Far fetched I know but a lot of what has been going on has been far fetched.
Expect the BoE Governor to issue dire warnings about Brexit.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
There's something in that. Unlike Sean I back Remain and have done a little canvassing. Several people said even though emotionally they were with Leave because of their job they'll be voting Remain. That wallet factor together with last minute heebie jeebies about plunging into the unknowable will provide a very narrow Remain victory (In line with my PB comp punt lol)
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
I think that they will find that their nightmares are just that ......nightmares, after Brexit.
Vote Leave.
From a man who openly says that tradition and "sovereignty" are more important to him than the economy.
The problem with that hypothesis is that it would be reasonable to see Remain doing better against Leave in the anonymity of the internet.
As for the things people hear, everyone is pressured by the circle they mix in. In some places Leave will be taboo; in others, it will be Remain.
My other half told me a story yesterday though about a presentation she was appointed to deliver for the training company she works for. She arrived to find her audience discussing Brexit. They were all young lads on probation. No comment on vote intention, but it's notable who is talking about this piece of politics.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
If they vote rationally to remain (in accordance with what is best for them) then you should vote in accordance with what you think is best for you (and your country). If there really are 'lots' of them then they will win (that's democracy) and you will have the comfort of knowing that you voted in accordance with your own careful weighing of the situation.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Vote to leave and buy up London property on the cheap.
The problem with that hypothesis is that it would be reasonable to see Remain doing better against Leave in the anonymity of the internet.
As for the things people hear, everyone is pressured by the circle they mix in. In some places Leave will be taboo; in others, it will be Remain.
My other half told me a story yesterday though about a presentation she was appointed to deliver for the training company she works for. She arrived to find her audience discussing Brexit. They were all young lads on probation. No comment on vote intention, but it's notable who is talking about this piece of politics.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
Have you decided who you are voting for?
No - not yet. I will post my vote before setting off for Dover in my car. So I have until Sunday evening.
I am finding this the most difficult head/heart decision, to be perfectly frank. I am a European. English is not my mother tongue. My extended family lives in at least 5 Continental countries. I would like to be a Remain because I think that the ideal of a co-operative Europe is a good one. But my experience of working in Brussels and dealing with innumerable Directives has made me very disillusioned. It has gone off the rails and a proper renegotiation should have been a good chance to move it in a better direction for the sake of a lot of countries in Europe, not just Britain. So I am reasonably clear in my own mind about what I think about the EU and about what I would like the EU and Britain in the EU to be.
It is the consequences for British politics which are troubling me.
Perhaps it's me but I heard Osborne on the radio yesterday and it didn't incite the reaction which it seems to have in others. If the facts change as a result of a vote of course a Chancellor has to look at his budget again. That seems to me to be no more than a statement of the obvious. But a period of prolonged political uncertainty with all sorts of people in charge who lack gravitas and judgment and thought is worrying. The "push" factor may be clear. The "pull" factor much less so. Indeed some of the Leave leaders or leave MPs seem to be doing their best to push people away from them. Too much of this seems to me to be animated by some private vendetta against Cameron and Osborne, about which I don't give a toss, frankly.
How are those in government going to manage a fractured party and lead - in a "steady under fire" sort of way - a fractured country with lots of people having vented and having, possibly, hopelessly overoptimistic expectations?
At this precise moment I'm rather wishing that both sides could lose.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
They wouldn't come into Britain as a line of refugees. They might come in as individuals and settled German citizens. Even after Brexit it is going to be difficult to discriminate between Germans of different racial backgrounds.
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
I don't necessarily think that they'd come as 'settled' German citizens. Many boat people were in refugee camps for years upon years before moving on. Admittedly, they were often detained in camps against their will and unable to set down roots. But 5 years is not a particularly long period of time, and most people take longer to truly settle.
But in general, I agree with your point. At that stage is will be a problem of a different nature.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
A post Brexit government may do everything it can to protect the city and therefore London house prices. Even if that means keeping free movement as part of the deal. Things could get very messy.
Regardless of the result, I think the winners and losers in the reputation market are:
Big losers - Cameron and Osborne (and Darling but that doesn't matter) who have totally lost whatever integrity they possessed.
Winners - May and Corbyn. They have kept their integrity. And Boris - who never had any.
"Project Fear" tactics against Corbyn will be less effective in future. Labour have reasonable chance of forming a minority government with support from the SNP at the next election.
The Tory leadership is between Boris and Theresa.
LibDems are completely under the radar (not intentionally I'm sure) and, relatively speaking, will probably gain from this. It is already showing in local results and beginning to appear in national polls. A natural home for some remainers?
Woe. woe and thrice woe! Crikey, the level of project fear on this site is reaching the ridiculous. Mr. Observer, seems to think that there is going to be some sort of fascist coup d'etat next week and many others appear to think that the economy will collapse the week after.
A few deep breaths all round, plus for the most affected bathing the temples in eau de Cologne, might be a good idea. Even if, and it is still a big if, the Uk votes to Leave what is, supposedly, a trading arrangement next week nothing will actually change, it will take years probably at least a decade for the effects to become evident (and in which time so many events will have occurred that it will be for historians to argue over not politicians).
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
There is no dilemma. The moral course of action is to vote with your beliefs. There is a circle of Hell reserved for those who voted for one thing but believed in another.
Isn't that £35:00 with a nought added for a laugh???
If leave win - some high rollers are going to get badly burnt. I would have thought Farage would have put some money on Leave though - if only for the publicity.
I'm sure I saw a picture of Farage putting a grand on Leave a week or so ago.
LibDems are completely under the radar (not intentionally I'm sure) and, relatively speaking, will probably gain from this. It is already showing in local results and beginning to appear in national polls. A natural home for some remainers?
They have been completely unable to exploit anything since the election, I doubt they will exploit this.
Isn't that £35:00 with a nought added for a laugh???
If leave win - some high rollers are going to get badly burnt. I would have thought Farage would have put some money on Leave though - if only for the publicity.
I'm sure I saw a picture of Farage putting a grand on Leave a week or so ago.
Vote Leave and Farage gets Lordship, becomes a Minister (for what?) and wins a grand. Bloody hell.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
They are Syrian refugees fleeing Daesh going from Slovenia to Croatia......nowt to do with the UK or the EU.......
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
If you believe the Leave rhetoric, they are in no danger. The road ahead is paved with Gold.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Pure logic is that the EU is the best of potential options, especially given that we are already in it.
The likely alternatives will be less and are uncertain. We don't know if we will get the EEA or if it will be qualified to our disfavour (eg no Financial Passport). We should get some kind of Free Trade Arrangment but we don't know yet whether it will be somewhat unfavourable to us or completely one-sided.
Then factor in the disruption and political chaos which will feed into the economy and constitutional and the EU should be a slam-dunk. On the logic.
But it isn't all logic. There is people's identity, fed-upness and sod-themness...
Isn't that £35:00 with a nought added for a laugh???
If leave win - some high rollers are going to get badly burnt. I would have thought Farage would have put some money on Leave though - if only for the publicity.
I'm sure I saw a picture of Farage putting a grand on Leave a week or so ago.
He did, and he's obviously a mug punter because he took it at crap odds.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
I can't believe that won't have any effect on peoples voting. Surely a step too far for most decent people.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
What you do has to be for your own conscience. My view is that we're already overdue a correction, and not just in the UK. The levels of global indebtedness are breathtaking.
The European economies are, by and large, basket cases where we're reduced to debating which is the least worst off, with the probably exception of Germany (and even Germany isn't immune to the likely issues arising in China and elsewhere).
Rather than waffle on, to me it's a choice between a recession soon and a recession next year. Brexit might help the EZ break its internal deadlocks and decisively break for full on integration. Hence, while Brexit might be bad for Europe, it might also prove to be a very practical way of breaking the logjam (c.f. the Telegraph article from the Euro diplomat).
You're not necessarily bringing armageddon onto your friends. But do what you need to do to sleep soundly at night.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
"Have to live in a semi in Watford", the telltale Thornberry touch of Remain.
Let's vote Leave - and see what they come up with then....
The "UKinEU settlement" he speaks of is merely the one Cameron managed to balls up back in February. It's nothing new. And of course, vacuous in content (other than the words, the endless Eurocratic words...).
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
There is no dilemma. The moral course of action is to vote with your beliefs. There is a circle of Hell reserved for those who voted for one thing but believed in another.
This is a secret ballot after all
Isn't that just zealotry? The reason the Tories won in 2015 was that many people who were instinctively Labour/Liberal thought – rightly or wrongly – that a Cameron government was the best for the country and the economy. Voting is much more nuanced than you give it credit for.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Grow some?
If you believe that there will be a recession and house price falls which will badly affect those that you care about (and millions you don't know), then you know what to do.
Even if, and it is still a big if, the Uk votes to Leave what is, supposedly, a trading arrangement next week
But you know damn well that it's not just a trading arrangement. Brexit would be the biggest shock to European politics since the fall of the Berlin wall. Anyone who says they can predict the consequences is just guessing, and predicting no consequences at all is wishful thinking.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
They wouldn't come into Britain as a line of refugees. They might come in as individuals and settled German citizens. Even after Brexit it is going to be difficult to discriminate between Germans of different racial backgrounds.
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
I don't necessarily think that they'd come as 'settled' German citizens. Many boat people were in refugee camps for years upon years before moving on. Admittedly, they were often detained in camps against their will and unable to set down roots. But 5 years is not a particularly long period of time, and most people take longer to truly settle.
But in general, I agree with your point. At that stage is will be a problem of a different nature.
--------------------
It takes 8* years to become a German citizen, and then only if you fulfil other conditions such as having no criminal record and learning the language. You also have to give up your former citizenship.
*This may be reduced to 6 years where applicants have shown exceptional German language ability or have contributed substantially to the community.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Vote to leave and buy up London property on the cheap.
If it came down to those two in the members' leadership vote, I'm at the moment not sure who I'd vote for.
If we Leave then it will be a judgement on how they react and how they contribute to the post-Brexit government and negotiations.
If we Remain, not sure.
I can't see the membership voting for the man who wielded the knife (which is how it will be perceived), much more likely to be May. It was the same with Hestletine (although I appreciate the membership didn't get a vote then).
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Grow some?
The brave option for him is to vote against his instincts. He can then say he has done it for the greater good, rather than his own urges.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
There is no dilemma. The moral course of action is to vote with your beliefs. There is a circle of Hell reserved for those who voted for one thing but believed in another.
This is a secret ballot after all
I suspect a lot of people are worried because they are morally invested in their side and fear they will not win. Some people will succumb to scaremongering and expect the worst, but I am optimistic that our long term future is better off out. Events like this are not just about tomorrow's paypacket but are about giving hope to future generations. People across Europe are suffering financial ruin because of EU policies, let's not go down that route.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
Also - unnecessary (in that those who will appreciate the poster will be voting to Leave anyway) and harmful (in that many centrist undecided voters will probably go towards Remain having seen it)... I do wish Farage would just sit tight for this last week and say and do nothing.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
They are Syrian refugees fleeing Daesh going from Slovenia to Croatia......nowt to do with the UK or the EU.......
They are not fleeing Daesh.
They are moving from one safe EU country to another safe EU country on their way to Germany as economic migrants.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
"Have to live in a semi in Watford", the telltale Thornberry touch of Remain.
Aren't professionals mainly Remainers anyway? However we do not know what her husband does. If he has major contracts with EU politicians then it is quite likely he would go bust. If he's a self-employed plumber then it would seem unlikely.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Vote Leave. There won't be a recession because we are not going to suddenly pull out, on the 24th it will be gradual. You havetold us you are surrounded by people who are strongly lefty upper middle class remainers and haven't really had a chance to hear from avreage people voting Leave. Please go canvassing in a wwc area to find out why people are voting Leave, it will open ur eyes that this is more than just immigration. Go to Vote leave website, Events and put in London and events will come up it will take 2 hours of your day. I used to be one of those annoying door to door chuggers and it kinda widens ur views, it will give u ideas for writing aswell.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
There is no dilemma. The moral course of action is to vote with your beliefs. There is a circle of Hell reserved for those who voted for one thing but believed in another.
This is a secret ballot after all
Isn't that just zealotry? The reason the Tories won in 2015 was that many people who were instinctively Labour/Liberal thought – rightly or wrongly – that a Cameron government was the best for the country and the economy. Voting is much more nuanced than you give it credit for.
I agree. I wavered all the way to the polling booth. My natural liberalism vs a feeling that EdM would screw things up. It was a tough choice. For me, this vote isn't: I'm certain Leave.
What's so very sad to me about this EU ref is that Cameron could have struck a proper deal and then opened a serious, mature, debate. He has vanished in my estimation.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Pure logic is that the EU is the best of potential options, especially given that we are already in it.
The likely alternatives will be less and are uncertain. We don't know if we will get the EEA or if it will be qualified to our disfavour (eg no Financial Passport). We should get some kind of Free Trade Arrangment but we don't know yet whether it will be somewhat unfavourable to us or completely one-sided.
Then factor in the disruption and political chaos which will feed into the economy and constitutional and the EU should be a slam-dunk. On the logic.
But it isn't all logic. There is people's identity, fed-upness and sod-themness...
There's a link in your 'logic' that doesn't quite work. If the alternative is uncertain then why is it less? If the future is uncertain then, by pure logic, you can't assert that it will be better or worse. You can 'believe' or 'forecast/guess' what might happen but that isn't the same thing as 'logic'.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
You view their fears in the same way as you would if they were worrying about giving their kids a vaccination. Their concerns are irrational and founded upon the desire of one side to frighten them into a particular response. It is exactly the same as if someone was to say they were voting Leave because they were terrified of being gang raped by 75 million Turks. For their own good you vote as you think best for the country and your family rather than joining them in their irrational fears.
Yep, racism pure and simple. And the Europeans we are going to have to do a deal with are seeing all this just as we are. And are reading the tabloid headlines just as we are.
They are Syrian refugees fleeing Daesh going from Slovenia to Croatia......nowt to do with the UK or the EU.......
I know. But the tone is just a ratchet up from the swarthy Turks are coming to get us. The Europeans Boris, Gove and co will be negotiating with will know that at least part of the reason they are there is because they pandered to racism and xenophobia. Whatever the Leave leadership might say, that is the case. They know that Turkey is nowhere close to joining the EU.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Grow some?
The brave option for him is to vote against his instincts. He can then say he has done it for the greater good, rather than his own urges.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
What do I do? What is the moral course of action?
Philosophers might provide moral guidance.
Bentham would vote Remain - greatest good of the greatest number - not personal interest or gratification.
Kant would vote Remain. Categorical imperative. He also wrote, just after the French Revolution, "The effects which an upheaval in any state [as a result of war with another state] produces upon all the others in our continent, where all are so closely linked by trade, are so perceptible that these other states are forced by their own insecurity to offer themselves as arbiters, albeit without legal authority, so that they indirectly prepare the way for a great political body of the future, without precedence in the past. Although this political body exists for the present only in the roughest of outlines, it nonetheless seems as if a feeling is beginning to stir in all its members, each of which has an interest in maintaining the whole. And this encourages the hope that, after many revolutions, the highest purpose of nature, a universal cosmopolitan existence, will at last be realized as the matrix within which all the original capacities of the human race may develop." Very prescient.
Rawlings would be a Remainer. Wish for a state of the world in which you do not know your position in it rather than based on your existing position.
I think, ethically, Remain has it. Remain has it.
Edit: And another moral philosopher said "Love thy neighbour as thyself."
It's a powerful poster, but I don't like it. I'm not sure it's quite Mein Kampf but it has sinister overtones.
A mistake, and it might backfire. LEAVE needs to keep it clean in the last week.
This is so sinister I had assumed it was a spoof.
The frustrating thing is that Leave have taken the lead by pushing Farage to one side and not doing this kind of crap. If Farage really does push himself to the fore in the next week with this kind of horribleness he could undo much of the good work Vote Leave have done and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Isn't that £35:00 with a nought added for a laugh???
If leave win - some high rollers are going to get badly burnt. I would have thought Farage would have put some money on Leave though - if only for the publicity.
I'm sure I saw a picture of Farage putting a grand on Leave a week or so ago.
He did, and he's obviously a mug punter because he took it at crap odds.
5/2 IIRC - anyone offering that now? 7/5 is best (At Ladbrokes - presumably that £35K bet has made them a bit skitter)
I suspect that many Sean and Sean's agent lady types would have ideally liked a free pass – i.e. being able to vote Leave knowing Remain were well ahead. Sadly that is not the case and we need them. The government must do all it can to bring some of these votes over in the final days.
Here's a moral dilemma, perhaps pb-ers can help me
I am a convinced LEAVER. I have very carefully weighed everything, and have - with great reluctance, and some trepidation - decided that OUT is best for my country, long term. Better for my kids.
I really really wanted Cameron to deliver some proper reform, something close to his Bloomberg aspirations, but he didn't. He came nowhere near. He failed, miserably.
That said, I have lots of friends who are now panicking, some of them are outright terrified. People poorer than me, who won't be able to endure recession or house price falls, the way I can. People worried their jobs will go.
These are people I love. I love my friends. I am about to do something that will very possibly harm them.
Comments
He wont win it
Far fetched I know but a lot of what has been going on has been far fetched.
I had hoped and expected that you would come around to that view. I had given up.
Despite your frequent sabre-rattling on here you are clearly a good man.
As this post shows.
Bob Geldof = Eddie Izzard mark II
The BBC is secretly supporting LEAVE
Vote Leave.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
They wouldn't come into Britain as a line of refugees. They might come in as individuals and settled German citizens. Even after Brexit it is going to be difficult to discriminate between Germans of different racial backgrounds.
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
Agreed.
And if you think it's better for your kids, that's perhaps how you should vote.
Consider whether you want us to leave. If you do, vote that way. Short term pain for long term gain is rational. The reverse is irrational, and cowardly.
This could also be interpreted as the UK believing in the rule of law.
@NicolaSturgeon: This is disgusting. https://t.co/eHHI6KrWvp
Leave is the harder choice, with greater risks (remaining has risk too though of course). But the rewards are potentially greater too. A global-minded independent Britain really can achieve much, but it will have to be worked for.
Remaining is safer in the short term and suits those who are comfortable in life now.
I am finding this the most difficult head/heart decision, to be perfectly frank. I am a European. English is not my mother tongue. My extended family lives in at least 5 Continental countries. I would like to be a Remain because I think that the ideal of a co-operative Europe is a good one. But my experience of working in Brussels and dealing with innumerable Directives has made me very disillusioned. It has gone off the rails and a proper renegotiation should have been a good chance to move it in a better direction for the sake of a lot of countries in Europe, not just Britain. So I am reasonably clear in my own mind about what I think about the EU and about what I would like the EU and Britain in the EU to be.
It is the consequences for British politics which are troubling me.
Perhaps it's me but I heard Osborne on the radio yesterday and it didn't incite the reaction which it seems to have in others. If the facts change as a result of a vote of course a Chancellor has to look at his budget again. That seems to me to be no more than a statement of the obvious. But a period of prolonged political uncertainty with all sorts of people in charge who lack gravitas and judgment and thought is worrying. The "push" factor may be clear. The "pull" factor much less so. Indeed some of the Leave leaders or leave MPs seem to be doing their best to push people away from them. Too much of this seems to me to be animated by some private vendetta against Cameron and Osborne, about which I don't give a toss, frankly.
How are those in government going to manage a fractured party and lead - in a "steady under fire" sort of way - a fractured country with lots of people having vented and having, possibly, hopelessly overoptimistic expectations?
At this precise moment I'm rather wishing that both sides could lose.
Note to Editors: Mark Carney is Canadian.
Do your own research.
As for the things people hear, everyone is pressured by the circle they mix in. In some places Leave will be taboo; in others, it will be Remain.
My other half told me a story yesterday though about a presentation she was appointed to deliver for the training company she works for. She arrived to find her audience discussing Brexit. They were all young lads on probation. No comment on vote intention, but it's notable who is talking about this piece of politics.
As for the things people hear, everyone is pressured by the circle they mix in. In some places Leave will be taboo; in others, it will be Remain.
My other half told me a story yesterday though about a presentation she was appointed to deliver for the training company she works for. She arrived to find her audience discussing Brexit. They were all young lads on probation. No comment on vote intention, but it's notable who is talking about this piece of politics.
They wouldn't come into Britain as a line of refugees. They might come in as individuals and settled German citizens. Even after Brexit it is going to be difficult to discriminate between Germans of different racial backgrounds.
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
I don't necessarily think that they'd come as 'settled' German citizens. Many boat people were in refugee camps for years upon years before moving on. Admittedly, they were often detained in camps against their will and unable to set down roots. But 5 years is not a particularly long period of time, and most people take longer to truly settle.
But in general, I agree with your point. At that stage is will be a problem of a different nature.
Big losers - Cameron and Osborne (and Darling but that doesn't matter) who have totally lost whatever integrity they possessed.
Winners - May and Corbyn. They have kept their integrity. And Boris - who never had any.
"Project Fear" tactics against Corbyn will be less effective in future. Labour have reasonable chance of forming a minority government with support from the SNP at the next election.
The Tory leadership is between Boris and Theresa.
LibDems are completely under the radar (not intentionally I'm sure) and, relatively speaking, will probably gain from this. It is already showing in local results and beginning to appear in national polls. A natural home for some remainers?
A few deep breaths all round, plus for the most affected bathing the temples in eau de Cologne, might be a good idea. Even if, and it is still a big if, the Uk votes to Leave what is, supposedly, a trading arrangement next week nothing will actually change, it will take years probably at least a decade for the effects to become evident (and in which time so many events will have occurred that it will be for historians to argue over not politicians).
This is a secret ballot after all
Of course, leave may be overplaying their hand - I would have thought 'steady as she goes' would be a more effective tactic.
Would BoZo and Gove lie to you?
Cast your Vote with Great British pride.
Then change your phone number, just in case
If we Leave then it will be a judgement on how they react and how they contribute to the post-Brexit government and negotiations.
If we Remain, not sure.
The likely alternatives will be less and are uncertain. We don't know if we will get the EEA or if it will be qualified to our disfavour (eg no Financial Passport). We should get some kind of Free Trade Arrangment but we don't know yet whether it will be somewhat unfavourable to us or completely one-sided.
Then factor in the disruption and political chaos which will feed into the economy and constitutional and the EU should be a slam-dunk. On the logic.
But it isn't all logic. There is people's identity, fed-upness and sod-themness...
The European economies are, by and large, basket cases where we're reduced to debating which is the least worst off, with the probably exception of Germany (and even Germany isn't immune to the likely issues arising in China and elsewhere).
Rather than waffle on, to me it's a choice between a recession soon and a recession next year. Brexit might help the EZ break its internal deadlocks and decisively break for full on integration. Hence, while Brexit might be bad for Europe, it might also prove to be a very practical way of breaking the logjam (c.f. the Telegraph article from the Euro diplomat).
You're not necessarily bringing armageddon onto your friends. But do what you need to do to sleep soundly at night.
Its even worse when you know the context - Syrian refugees fleeing Daesh......
But as I say that poster isn't there for rational discussion.
I don't necessarily think that they'd come as 'settled' German citizens. Many boat people were in refugee camps for years upon years before moving on. Admittedly, they were often detained in camps against their will and unable to set down roots. But 5 years is not a particularly long period of time, and most people take longer to truly settle.
But in general, I agree with your point. At that stage is will be a problem of a different nature.
--------------------
It takes 8* years to become a German citizen, and then only if you fulfil other conditions such as having no criminal record and learning the language. You also have to give up your former citizenship.
*This may be reduced to 6 years where applicants have shown exceptional German language ability or have contributed substantially to the community.
The brave option for him is to vote against his instincts. He can then say he has done it for the greater good, rather than his own urges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufekKXI9vU
Will they endorse it? Will they renounce it?
They are moving from one safe EU country to another safe EU country on their way to Germany as economic migrants.
I used to be one of those annoying door to door chuggers and it kinda widens ur views, it will give u ideas for writing aswell.
Leave 52
Remain 48
Remain 42(-2)
Leave 45(+7)
DK 13(-5)
Freedom awaits.
EU referendum poll:
Remain: 42% (-2)
Leave: 45% (+7)
(via Survation, phone / 15 Jun)
What's so very sad to me about this EU ref is that Cameron could have struck a proper deal and then opened a serious, mature, debate. He has vanished in my estimation.
Bentham would vote Remain - greatest good of the greatest number - not personal interest or gratification.
Kant would vote Remain. Categorical imperative. He also wrote, just after the French Revolution, "The effects which an upheaval in any state [as a result of war with another state] produces upon all the others in our continent, where all are so closely linked by trade, are so perceptible that these other states are forced by their own insecurity to offer themselves as arbiters, albeit without legal authority, so that they indirectly prepare the way for a great political body of the future, without precedence in the past. Although this political body exists for the present only in the roughest of outlines, it nonetheless seems as if a feeling is beginning to stir in all its members, each of which has an interest in maintaining the whole. And this encourages the hope that, after many revolutions, the highest purpose of nature, a universal cosmopolitan existence, will at last be realized as the matrix within which all the original capacities of the human race may develop." Very prescient.
Rawlings would be a Remainer. Wish for a state of the world in which you do not know your position in it rather than based on your existing position.
I think, ethically, Remain has it. Remain has it.
Edit: And another moral philosopher said "Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Only 13 hours to the next poll...