Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Just because people want immigration reduced does not mean they are xenophobic. Please stop.
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Fair enough Alastair, but the wonder of the Internet is that people will just move onto other sites. I enjoy pb, I really do, but if I want to read bile I can do that just as easily on Reddit.
Don't be too hard on him, he thinks that passes for debate.
If Leave wins it doesn't mean that we suddenly become a national of bigots and xenophobes. We will still be a fair and tolerant society but will have the freedom to exhibit those qualities as a fully independent and democratic nation. Let's unite to take that opportunity.
Do you play golf Sandy? It is a salutary lesson that you always want more- a human condition. Like betting, or accumulating wealth. So I propose to you, we go for a Brexit. Do you think that will stop the debate. Or, it will unleash a potent, racist, nationalistic diatribe that will.......go for more.
You are describing under 5%; nasty people yes, but not representative and not going to change the country. Oh, and I don't play golf - too elitist for my taste.
If Leave wins it doesn't mean that we suddenly become a national of bigots and xenophobes. We will still be a fair and tolerant society but will have the freedom to exhibit those qualities as a fully independent and democratic nation. Let's unite to take that opportunity.
Do you play golf Sandy? It is a salutary lesson that you always want more- a human condition. Like betting, or accumulating wealth. So I propose to you, we go for a Brexit. Do you think that will stop the debate. Or, it will unleash a potent, racist, nationalistic diatribe that will.......go for more.
If we go for Brexit the UK will remain a liberal democracy. There's no vast horde of barbarians straining to be let off the leash.
Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
Perhaps. Do we know that for sure? (Realise that is usually the case)
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Mark- it must be tough for people to try and come to terms with the fact that they are on the side of racists and blind ignorance and prejudice. Cue Brexit.
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
REMAINers are supposed to fight the referendum with two clean hands tied behind their backs by an immigrant refugee terrorist and their legs undercut by a cheaper immigrant Polish immigrant.
Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
Perhaps. Do we know that for sure? (Realise that is usually the case)
There will be a few exceptions like some students and those abroad but postal votes are most used by pensioners
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Mark- it must be tough for people to try and come to terms with the fact that they are on the side of racists and blind ignorance and prejudice. Cue Brexit.
Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
I thought postal voters were generally illiterate Asian women who don't speak English. Or is that a load of old bowlsrks ;-)
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
Just because people want immigration reduced does not mean they are xenophobic. Please stop.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Just because people want immigration reduced does not mean they are xenophobic. Please stop.
Read the dictionary definition of the word and compare to vox pops of people you have seen on TV news or spoken to ..
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Fair enough Alastair, but the wonder of the Internet is that people will just move onto other sites. I enjoy pb, I really do, but if I want to read bile I can do that just as easily on Reddit.
Don't be too hard on him, he thinks that passes for debate.
I try not to be hard on anybody, with the occasional exception of tyson and Roger .
I do think the racist/xenephobe meme is now exhausted, played out and counter-productive. It's particularly jarring when it comes from wealthy ex-pats, who share one characteristic with Jon Snow, and we all know what that is.
Anyway, I'm done with pb now, it's been corrupted by the referendum campaign and there's too much heat and not enough light. I shall have to find other things to amuse myself with while my leg heals .
Osborne might want to be careful with his latest scare story....it might encourage more Tories to vote out with these promises of essential cuts....only been waiting 6 years for them.
If the vote was tomorrow, I think Remain would win - by between 2 and 4 points - ie between 51/49 and 52/48 - due to polling booth swingback, Northern Ireland, expats and (maybe) some differential turnout.
But the key point now is momentum - if the current drift from Remain to Leave continues for another week then Leave wins.
Remain has to hold things right where they are now - they cannot afford any more slippage.
From this morning's discussion, I can't see the net impact of Northern Ireland and expats as anything other than trivial.
Doubts in the polling station are a real possibility. Although, a lot of Leavers will have voted by post.
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Fair enough Alastair, but the wonder of the Internet is that people will just move onto other sites. I enjoy pb, I really do, but if I want to read bile I can do that just as easily on Reddit.
I firmly expect a spike in bile around June 24th, then a return to normality, followed by spikes when then things go wrong for whichever side won.
...like the Cathedral that took 45 years to build...
Isn't that a bit quick in terms of cathedrals? If they did it properly it'd take 45 years to build the vestry...
I did go to an amazing organ concert in the Hallgrimskirkya in its lovely light blue colour scheme with those giant basalt towers rising up at the front of the building. Amazing view from the top of there over the whole of Reykjavik.
But you're right, the Incas took a lot longer to build Cusco Cathedral!
Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
I thought postal voters were generally illiterate Asian women who don't speak English. Or is that a load of old bowlsrks ;-)
Even if they were I doubt most of those are youthful maidens!
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Alisistair- if things go pear shaped following Brexit, as they inevitably will, these stupid, nihilistic bastards will just attack immigrants (as present), and the Eurocrats (who are they?) as they do now...but with more vitriol.
Brexit has no time or place in modern history other than it might set us back to the horrors of the past.
Why don't you just say "we'll all burn in hell" and have done with it. Don't pull your punches it's not in REMAIN'S character.
Good to remind us in the leave camp that we can ill afford any complacency right now.
Yes, it is clearly going to the wire
I'm stunned Remain is ahead. I suspect there may be worse news in the datasets but we shall see. Remain has got to get every single middle class vote out now and hope Corbyn's NHS show can turn over a few leftie working class. Problem for Remain is that postal voting took place during peak Leave.
Yes but postal voters were largely elderly voters who would vote Leave regardless
I thought postal voters were generally illiterate Asian women who don't speak English. Or is that a load of old bowlsrks ;-)
Reading the posts on here the other day , they are mainly Leave supporters who post on here .
"George Osborne is leading calls inside No10 for Mrs May to be “punished” when the PM carries out a major shake-up of his top team soon after the June 23 vote."
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Just because people want immigration reduced does not mean they are xenophobic. Please stop.
Read the dictionary definition of the word and compare to vox pops of people you have seen on TV news or spoken to ..
The people I know and have spoken to are not xenophobes. If leavers you know are all xenophobes then that says more about your circle of friends and family than it does about the nation as a whole.
...like the Cathedral that took 45 years to build...
Isn't that a bit quick in terms of cathedrals? If they did it properly it'd take 45 years to build the vestry...
Not really modern cathedrals have been thrown up quite quickly. The record I think is held by the Coventry which took only six years to actually build, plus another five or six in the planning phase. Guildford took I think about 25 years but building was suspended because of WW2.
Osborne might want to be careful with his latest scare story....it might encourage more Tories to vote out with these promises of essential cuts....only been waiting 6 years for them.
They don't care about the Tory voters it's all about bringing Labour voters "to their sense's" now.
This pair of clowns (Cameron and Osborne) have actually got themselves into a situation where they are relying on Labour and Labour voters to save their collective bacons...
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Alisistair- if things go pear shaped following Brexit, as they inevitably will, these stupid, nihilistic bastards will just attack immigrants (as present), and the Eurocrats (who are they?) as they do now...but with more vitriol.
Brexit has no time or place in modern history other than it might set us back to the horrors of the past.
Why don't you just say "we'll all burn in hell" and have done with it. Don't pull your punches it's not in REMAIN'S character.
Mr Meeks is at least correct that Leavers have also said abominable things - I don't think it fair to suggest either side have been more pleasant than the other, even if individual Remainers and Leavers have. Some previously rude Leavers have been much more magnanimous in the past day or two, presumably as things are looking better for us.
"George Osborne is leading calls inside No10 for Mrs May to be “punished” when the PM carries out a major shake-up of his top team soon after the June 23 vote."
I've been a fan of Osborne all along and used to call him a "near perfect Chancellor" but that's crossing the rubicon there. He has basically announced that he can't do his job if leave wins, so he has to either resign or be fired in that case and let someone else do it.
Osborne might want to be careful with his latest scare story....it might encourage more Tories to vote out with these promises of essential cuts....only been waiting 6 years for them.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Any evidence for that bullshit?
Well if you disagree and think there are plenty of xenophobic immigrant haters on here I will bow to your knowledge
No I disagree that the 'typical Leave supporter or voter in the country as a whole' is a "xenophobic immigrant hater". You have evidence for that bullshit?
If you do not believe that immigration is at the forefront of the minds of a large % of those planning to vote Leave you have not been out in country for months nor looked at opinion poll detailed data .
Mark- it must be tough for people to try and come to terms with the fact that they are on the side of racists and blind ignorance and prejudice. Cue Brexit.
People can be right for the wrong reasons.
kle4- from everything that I've read from you over the years.... I actually think that you are the most thoughtful, rationale, reasonable and compassionate leaver that pervades this strange place, called pbCOM. But, that said, you are still wrong. You are on the wrong side of history. And it is not even like you have got it slightly wrong, you haven't. You are really wrong.
On the Economics of Brexit, Paul Krugman has done a concise piece that seems plausible. He reckons a 2% permanent drop in GDP due to greater trade restrictions is likely but talk of a huge financial crisis and a collapse in the pound is baloney.
What's more significant is the suggestion of how it will play out differently across the UK. His estimation is that London would be severely hit due to the city but other parts of the UK might benefit from a weaker pound.
I have to say I do worry somewhat about London. It's not that long ago we had the riots, it's not a homogeneous place and an economic shock is never good news.
Krugman is full of s**t, he was the loudest proclaimer that Osborne's austerity policies were going to cause a Greek style crash and millions of unemployed. Every prediction he has made for years has been humiliatingly wrong.
Except Osborne stopped his austerity policies and adopted a crappy version of Darling's instead.
Osborne might want to be careful with his latest scare story....it might encourage more Tories to vote out with these promises of essential cuts....only been waiting 6 years for them.
They don't care about the Tory voters it's all about bringing Labour voters "to their sense's" now.
This pair of clowns (Cameron and Osborne) have actually got themselves into a situation where they are relying on Labour and Labour voters to save their collective bacons...
The Master Strategist Strikes Again!
The other line I have seen being pushed on social media is "if you think these Tories are grade a shits, wait and see the Tories you will get if you vote leave..."
"George Osborne is leading calls inside No10 for Mrs May to be “punished” when the PM carries out a major shake-up of his top team soon after the June 23 vote."
They want to be careful not to push Mrs May too far... If she thinks he career under Cam and Os is effectively over there's nothing to stop her staging a last minute switch to LEAVE.
Accusing others of being nasty is an easy way out, but it is never a good look. The bitterness of some Remainers (not you) is showing already, and yet it's all to play for. I suspect Remain will gain in the last couple of days owing to people's natural inclination for what they believe will be the status quo.
I retain hopes that Mr Hyde (Mr Meeks) will revert to Dr Jekyll come June 24th, whatever the result.
Despite Dave's rhetoric, the result won't be Armageddon whichever way it goes.
I will carry on calling it as I see it, before and after 23 June. I understand that Leavers don't like being tarred as monomaniacs, xenophobes, isolationists, dimwits, irrational optimists, useful idiots and wild-eyed nutjobs, but what am I supposed to do? Pretend that I think they are thinking logically and intelligently?
If I see people making a bad choice for bad reasons, I'm going to say so loud and clear.
If we vote Leave and things pan out as I expect, I shall wear out the I, T, O, L, D, Y, U and S keys on my keyboard as we drift into becoming a sour reactionary backwater. Doubtless erstwhile Leavers will consider that nasty too.
Fair enough Alastair, but the wonder of the Internet is that people will just move onto other sites. I enjoy pb, I really do, but if I want to read bile I can do that just as easily on Reddit.
I firmly expect a spike in bile around June 24th, then a return to normality, followed by spikes when then things go wrong for whichever side won.
I see Mr Meeks is being anything but meek again and showing his extraordinary lack of self-reflection and humility.
As if someone could never be a rational leaver, or fit into a description other than the list of insults he provided.
What is and is not rational depends no your starting points, your axioms. Mr Meeks can see none other than his own.
If the vote was tomorrow, I think Remain would win - by between 2 and 4 points - ie between 51/49 and 52/48 - due to polling booth swingback, Northern Ireland, expats and (maybe) some differential turnout.
But the key point now is momentum - if the current drift from Remain to Leave continues for another week then Leave wins.
Remain has to hold things right where they are now - they cannot afford any more slippage.
From this morning's discussion, I can't see the net impact of Northern Ireland and expats as anything other than trivial.
Doubts in the polling station are a real possibility. Although, a lot of Leavers will have voted by post.
It all started going wrong for Remain when Gove and Boris unleashed their 'Australian' points-based immigration system. What a sublime piece of subliminal messaging that was - summoning up (more or less) images of cork-hatted bushmen throwing abos on the barbie. Nothing twangs the heartstrings of us Poms like the lusty outdoor romanticism of the Australian way. Poor Osborne and his dry economic stats never stood a chance!
Osborne might want to be careful with his latest scare story....it might encourage more Tories to vote out with these promises of essential cuts....only been waiting 6 years for them.
They don't care about the Tory voters it's all about bringing Labour voters "to their sense's" now.
This pair of clowns (Cameron and Osborne) have actually got themselves into a situation where they are relying on Labour and Labour voters to save their collective bacons...
If we're so unimportant that we've no hope of survival outside EU, how come we can move global markets on what we may be thinking of doing?
Markets aren't rational because: people.
We might be the proverbial straw.
I agree but I think the EU is finished anyway. Brexit will just hurry it up and best if it's going to happen then it happens quickly, so we would be doing the world a favour.
On topic. I think that FTSE and sterling turbulence helps Remain. But two important points firstly Remain needs to have a consistent message (in a similar manner to the £350m EU cost a week) about its impact and secondly turbulence in the 24 hours before a vote is likely to be much more useful than that 10 days beforehand.
Off topic having been in Dublin this weekend (to see Bryan Ferry) two points. Firstly the Irish are not great fans of the EU (something about the EU and peat bog digging I kid you not was raised twice!) and also the Irish property sector would appear to be on the up.
It is amazing how things have changed. I went back to the town I lived in when I was in Spain all those years ago. Back then it was a mix of Catalans, immigrants from other parts of Spain, a few gypsies and a handful of expats. Now it is completely different: loads of sub-Saharan Africans, North Africans, Romanian shops. It was almost unrecognisable. If you live through change you often don't register it, but going back after 15 years it smacked me hard in the face.
For Lleida read any town in England. I remember the Kentish Town of my youth: largely white working class (English and Irish), Greek and Turkish Cypriot, some West Indians. Almost everyone in council or privately rented accommodation. It was rough and ready. Not like that now. I do miss it.
I am lucky and have moved on. My nostalgia is an indulgence. But for a lot of people it must be an ache, a physical pain. They have been left behind as everything has changed. They have been dumped on. Of course they're angry, of course they feel unheard, of course they feel a level of hostility to the newcomers - whether hipsters and millionaires in Kentish Town or immigrants in Canning Town. It's totally natural and completely understandable. It's not bigoted, it's not xenophobic, it's not racist. A few Remainers on here need to get their heads round that.
I don't blame disillusioned, disenfranchised working class people for voting Leave. It makes total sense to me. I just don't think it is the solution. It won't make things better. But it is a logical reaction to all they have been through and go through now everyday.
However, wealthy, right wing, Tory Leave leaders; they do deserve nothing but contempt. Posing as champions of people who they have spent the last six years grinding into the ground. It's sickening.
It is amazing how things have changed. I went back to the town I lived in when I was in Spain all those years ago. Back then it was a mix of Catalans, immigrants from other parts of Spain, a few gypsies and a handful of expats. Now it is completely different: loads of sub-Saharan Africans, North Africans, Romanian shops. It was almost unrecognisable. If you live through change you often don't register it, but going back after 15 years it smacked me hard in the face.
For Lleida read any town in England. I remember the Kentish Town of my youth: largely white working class (English and Irish), Greek and Turkish Cypriot, some West Indians. Almost everyone in council or privately rented accommodation. It was rough and ready. Not like that now. I do miss it.
I am lucky and have moved on. My nostalgia is an indulgence. But for a lot of people it must be an ache, a physical pain. They have been left behind as everything has changed. They have been dumped on. Of course they're angry, of course they feel unheard, of course they feel a level of hostility to the newcomers - whether hipsters and millionaires in Kentish Town or immigrants in Canning Town. It's totally natural and completely understandable. It's not bigoted, it's not xenophobic, it's not racist. A few Remainers on here need to get their heads round that.
I don't blame disillusioned, disenfranchised working class people for voting Leave. It makes total sense to me. I just don't think it is the solution. It won't make things better. But it is a logical reaction to all they have been through and go through now everyday.
However, wealthy, right wing, Tory Leave leaders; they do deserve nothing but contempt. Posing as champions of people who they have spent the last six years grinding into the ground. It's sickening.
Well said.
I have great doubts about whether Brexit will help the average person, the working class, the deprived.
But what I'm sure of is that the status quo is going to continue to crat all over them at an increasing rate.
Its clear to me that the policies pursued over the last decade - ever rising house prices, unlimited unskilled immigration, government borrow and bribe, increasing wealth divides, a crippling of social and economic mobility - are deeply damaging to Britain.
Even worse I think the establishment will release a flood of hate against the working class for their rebellion.
As to the Tory Leavers perhaps they think along similar lines to me, perhaps they have other reasons. I don't know.
Comments
Thank you
So, alien invasion or zombie apocalypse?
Osborne: Vote Remain or your wallet gets it.
Nice.
I do think the racist/xenephobe meme is now exhausted, played out and counter-productive. It's particularly jarring when it comes from wealthy ex-pats, who share one characteristic with Jon Snow, and we all know what that is.
Anyway, I'm done with pb now, it's been corrupted by the referendum campaign and there's too much heat and not enough light. I shall have to find other things to amuse myself with while my leg heals
Doubts in the polling station are a real possibility. Although, a lot of Leavers will have voted by post.
But you're right, the Incas took a lot longer to build Cusco Cathedral!
Is this another Ozzy moment?
Simples
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1283327/david-cameron-could-punish-theresa-may-by-demoting-her-for-not-playing-a-big-part-in-remain-campaign/
No punishment is big enough for Osborne, IMHO.
Grade A ****.
https://mishtalk.com/2016/06/14/camerons-deceit-and-lies-revisited-what-he-promised-what-he-delivered/
This pair of clowns (Cameron and Osborne) have actually got themselves into a situation where they are relying on Labour and Labour voters to save their collective bacons...
The Master Strategist Strikes Again!
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
As if someone could never be a rational leaver, or fit into a description other than the list of insults he provided.
What is and is not rational depends no your starting points, your axioms. Mr Meeks can see none other than his own.
Hope all is good with you and yours.
Remain are still in this.
https://twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/742830366680068097
Off topic having been in Dublin this weekend (to see Bryan Ferry) two points. Firstly the Irish are not great fans of the EU (something about the EU and peat bog digging I kid you not was raised twice!) and also the Irish property sector would appear to be on the up.
For Lleida read any town in England. I remember the Kentish Town of my youth: largely white working class (English and Irish), Greek and Turkish Cypriot, some West Indians. Almost everyone in council or privately rented accommodation. It was rough and ready. Not like that now. I do miss it.
I am lucky and have moved on. My nostalgia is an indulgence. But for a lot of people it must be an ache, a physical pain. They have been left behind as everything has changed. They have been dumped on. Of course they're angry, of course they feel unheard, of course they feel a level of hostility to the newcomers - whether hipsters and millionaires in Kentish Town or immigrants in Canning Town. It's totally natural and completely understandable. It's not bigoted, it's not xenophobic, it's not racist. A few Remainers on here need to get their heads round that.
I don't blame disillusioned, disenfranchised working class people for voting Leave. It makes total sense to me. I just don't think it is the solution. It won't make things better. But it is a logical reaction to all they have been through and go through now everyday.
However, wealthy, right wing, Tory Leave leaders; they do deserve nothing but contempt. Posing as champions of people who they have spent the last six years grinding into the ground. It's sickening.
I have great doubts about whether Brexit will help the average person, the working class, the deprived.
But what I'm sure of is that the status quo is going to continue to crat all over them at an increasing rate.
Its clear to me that the policies pursued over the last decade - ever rising house prices, unlimited unskilled immigration, government borrow and bribe, increasing wealth divides, a crippling of social and economic mobility - are deeply damaging to Britain.
Even worse I think the establishment will release a flood of hate against the working class for their rebellion.
As to the Tory Leavers perhaps they think along similar lines to me, perhaps they have other reasons. I don't know.