Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
Gest post stodge. The remain apologists would all do well to visit Greece and see what a disaster the euro has been for southern Europe.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
In your view.
No...not in my view. In the view of the IMF, our government, 85% of economists, bankers, industry, virtually everyone. In reposte the leave campaign have thrown the spectre that Turkey will imminently join the EU, that no-one backs up.
You are on the side my friend of racists who are stoking up fear of immigration to deliver an outcome that will be truly disastrous for our country, for your house value, for the NHS, for our Armed Forces, for our influence and role in the world.
'I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
I am sure his message will be resonating around the dining clubs of Burslem, Longton, Fenton, Hanley etc this evening...
I know little about the specifics of what you are talking about as I don't live in London but a serious question.
How do you build affordable housing when a garage sells for more than a normal public sector worker can hope to afford? Short of building wendy houses I don't see how any developer can build affordable housing in the current London market. Hence the need for a serious downward readjustment in house prices in London.
London is not one market, it is hundreds. There are parts of London where you can still buy a flat for 100k. There are parts of London where a flat (without a bath) is 1.5m.
You mean those flats that are essentially one room and a piss pot? This is the thing that is killing the white working class, more than any other sector.
I don't mean to be rude, but I've shared a 450 sq foot flat with two other people. When I see images of "shocking" flats, with three people stuffed into two rooms, I think "I've been there and done that". Compared to places like Hong Kong, where the Chinese working class is still in happy abundance, 450 sq feet between three (adult) people is an abundance.
Stop it Robert. I warned you last night about going all 'Four Yorkshiremen' on us. You'll be claiming you slept int' paper bag int' middle of t'road next.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
In your view.
No...not in my view. In the view of the IMF, our government, 85% of economists, bankers, industry, virtually everyone. In reposte the leave campaign have thrown the spectre that Turkey will imminently join the EU, that no-one backs up.
You are on the side my friend of racists who are stoking up fear of immigration to deliver an outcome that will be truly disastrous for our country, for your house value, for the NHS, for our Armed Forces, for our influence and role in the world.
I thought you were exiling yourself for the duration? Change of heart?
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
Trouble is, Stodge, that admirable as your internationalist sentiments are, you haven’t been listening to all the comments from Leave. There’s a segment which appears to seek a sort of Fortress Britain with a somewhat (at least) restrictive attitude to “outsiders”.
No. We want controlled immigration, control over our laws and free trade, not just free trade with a nasty introverted EU protectionist block.
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
It is truly DREADFUL this Brexit idea - I mean, I mean, wages will go UP!
The person responsible for this lamentable & depressing thread is TSE, who purposefully produced a Enormous Piece of Bullshit with his "a bad narrative is developing for leave" based on the flimsiest evidence.
If you look in the run up to the election of the Tories in May 2015, you will easily find days when the FTSE fell by a per cent or so.
We didn't get a load of bull from TSE about "a bad narrative developing for the Tories" then.
Have some sympathy for TSE. He used to share the BS "LEAVE are failing" threads with folk such as Mr Meeks and now he is on his own.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
When I see things like that I wonder "do these people actually want us to leave?" Is this some clever trick they're playing? I always said that it was very difficult for Leave to win this, but not that difficult for Remain to lose it. Very odd.
Here comes the vow that they know can't ever come to pass...
A bit like the vow that funding for Universities and farming subsidies will be protected
Nope not like that at all. The PM's vow if it comes to pass is absolutely impossible as it runs counter to the basic principles of the 4 freedoms of the EU.
The vow on universities and farm subsidies is entirely possible given it is funded by money we already pay to Brussels.
The Leave campaign aren't even a freakin political party let alone a government - they cannot guarantee anything
Tell that to the Remainiacs on here. They are the ones who keep claiming that we should vote Remain because of how nasty Farage and Boris and Give will be when they are in power.
A little consistency would be nice.
Besides the point still stands. If we leave then the money we have currently been giving to Brussels for them to give back to universities and farmers will still be there to give no matter who is in power. At least then you will have a choice of who controls the money.
Really? and you honestly believe that? That there would be no downturn in the economy. So the claims made in the Leave broadcast I heard on the radio this evening that stated the infamous £350 million a week could be spent on the NHS is a lie.
Billions that they say could go to fund the NHS will instead go in to the pockets of super-farms or the elite country estates who will net millions a year in subsidies and the rest will be going to help prop up an inefficient farming sector that can't stand on its own feet...through a grant system that that is riddled with corruption and fraud.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
"Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”"
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
Except people leave clubs all the time and for all sorts of reasons - often because they don't find the benefits are worth the costs.
Stuart Rose sounds like the sort of twat who joins a golf club for networking purposes.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
Trouble is, Stodge, that admirable as your internationalist sentiments are, you haven’t been listening to all the comments from Leave. There’s a segment which appears to seek a sort of Fortress Britain with a somewhat (at least) restrictive attitude to “outsiders”.
This is an issue that afflicts both sides. When I was a Tory, it was perfectly clear that some of my brethren were not terribly keen on LGBT folk. But there you have it. Political parties are broad churches. Labour have allegedly got anti-Semitism issues. I don't think any the less of Southam for that.
Are there racists in the Leave camp? Undoubtedly, how could there not be? There are, in my view, plenty of equally pernicious racists in the Remain cohort; they despise the WWC - and why not? They're not always easy to love.
Some Leavers want to pull up the drawbridge. A tiny minority would love to deport all the 'darkies' and 'muslimics'.
What are the (borrowing Stodge's label) internationalist leavers supposed to do? Eschew the cause because the chavs are polluting the moral purity of our stance?
There are going to be a lot of angry, disappointed people, no matter what happens. But British qualities of tolerance and fair play will not evaporate after Brexit or Bremain. People come to this country because they know what we're like. We're by and large good and decent folk.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
"Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”"
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
It reminds me a of a Labour politician allegedly saying after his government collapsed and the National (Tory) government took Britain off the gold standard saying, "I did not know we could do that".
Nope. If people don't have shares themselves, they're not going to see why they should care about "the markets" falling. It's just not tangible enough for Joe Public.
As I said earlier, the "Remain" campaign has not given any reasons why it's in people's self-interest to stay in the EU, except to a narrow section of the wealthy middle-class.
Any one with a contributory pension would be worried by the stock market.
Really? I would think not.
Yet again - share prices have been volatile for years now. This is just a pathetic attempt to scare people for short term advantage.
In terms of a potential vow. Something like that may win over some voters but it is weak.
The Leave campaign can simply reply:
"The Prime Minister informed us that his new deal was a victory for the UK, we had a new special status. Now, however, he informs us his deal was fundamentally flawed. So he asks us to believe that what he could not achieve in years of negotiation will be achieved at some vague point in the future and after we have voted to remain in the EU. Nonsense. The Prime Minister has today demonstrated that his case has been built on sand and that the real risks are in remaining in the EU. He asks us to believe in promises of change and he asks us to belief that tomorrow will be different to the previous 42 years. We shouldn't have to beg a supranational organisation for the ability to control our borders. No, only a vote to Leave can let us take back control; seize this opportunity. Vote Leave."
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
The other campaign Alan Johnson led was his own campaign to become Deputy Leader of the Labour party and he lost to Harriet Harman.
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
You are a fantastic asset to the Leave campaign, Stodge.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
I know little about the specifics of what you are talking about as I don't live in London but a serious question.
How do you build affordable housing when a garage sells for more than a normal public sector worker can hope to afford? Short of building wendy houses I don't see how any developer can build affordable housing in the current London market. Hence the need for a serious downward readjustment in house prices in London.
London is not one market, it is hundreds. There are parts of London where you can still buy a flat for 100k. There are parts of London where a flat (without a bath) is 1.5m.
You mean those flats that are essentially one room and a piss pot? This is the thing that is killing the white working class, more than any other sector.
I don't mean to be rude, but I've shared a 450 sq foot flat with two other people. When I see images of "shocking" flats, with three people stuffed into two rooms, I think "I've been there and done that". Compared to places like Hong Kong, where the Chinese working class is still in happy abundance, 450 sq feet between three (adult) people is an abundance.
Stop it Robert. I warned you last night about going all 'Four Yorkshiremen' on us. You'll be claiming you slept int' paper bag int' middle of t'road next.
Paper bag? PAPER BAG? You were lucky... We had to sleep under a banana skin in a puddle.
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
I tried to tell him the same earlier. An extreme case of europhobia!
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
To be fair, he wasn't the cause of his own overratedness.. lots of Labour supporters in the media and greybeard Labour MPs thought he'd be a great PM because he used to be a postman.
I have to say that the one asset that is highly likely to become more... ahhh... affordable post Brexit is London property.
...
I'm glad you think it's good that this insanity has the potential to plunge London families like mine into negative equity. I have been close to tears at times worried about my family's livelihood.
SNIP.
SNIP.
SNIP
Oh, and my livelihood depends on not making the wrong calls about buying assets. I have a bit of experience....
SNIP
Oh and well done with the job.
Emotional investment makes it hard to be rational. It is why houses should not be considered as investments, but homes.
If the mortgage was affordable in positive equity, it will be affordable in negative equity barring external changes.
Negative equity is one of those irregular verb situations isnt it. I made a sensible property choice (when prices go up), he makes a fortune in flipping his homes, they screwed us by crashing the economy.
Negative impacts can be rooted in causes closer to home - including over stretching, failing to take out adequate mortgage protection insurance etc.
SNIP
Oh and is it not possible that Brexit could bring about external changes through job losses, wage cuts and so on. I don't know if that's so...but here's the rub..nor do you.
SNIP
And as soon as they got one, you'd be gleefully willing down their asset value, telling them how their being pushed into negative equity would be good for the people in the situation they used to be in.
Emotions getting in the way, again. Buying on a bubble is heartbreaking, lord knows I've done it many times - but heartbreak is irrational. Cold, hard, market asset valuations are not.
Where did I say I bought on the bubble ?
I bought my most recent property three years ago and my house had grown considerably in value since then. I just don't see how my family seeing the equity I have gained wiped out is something that I should wish for. Normal people don't wish that on others, either.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Never heard of dining clubs, but we do have an excellent local chippy. Any similarity? Same sort of concept? Or off the mark?
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
It is truly DREADFUL this Brexit idea - I mean, I mean, wages will go UP!
Wages MAY go up for those with jobs - unemployment WILL go up as firms fail to fill vacancies and turn down opportunities for expansion. I worked with a home care provider who consistently turned down work offered because he couldn't get the staff. It was solved by recruiting from Bulgaria - the solution to the problem of "foreigners taking our jobs" is to stop fecking moaning about it and find british workers to do the work...then and only then would there be no need to foreign workers.
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Are Leavers incapable of reading?
It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION.
Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
The average voter/casual viewer will see this on Sky News and think, oh Brexit isn't a good thing.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
Trouble is, Stodge, that admirable as your internationalist sentiments are, you haven’t been listening to all the comments from Leave. There’s a segment which appears to seek a sort of Fortress Britain with a somewhat (at least) restrictive attitude to “outsiders”.
This is an issue that afflicts both sides. When I was a Tory, it was perfectly clear that some of my brethren were not terribly keen on LGBT folk. But there you have it. Political parties are broad churches. Labour have allegedly got anti-Semitism issues. I don't think any the less of Southam for that.
Are there racists in the Leave camp? Undoubtedly, how could there not be? There are, in my view, plenty of equally pernicious racists in the Remain cohort; they despise the WWC - and why not? They're not always easy to love.
Some Leavers want to pull up the drawbridge. A tiny minority would love to deport all the 'darkies' and 'muslimics'.
What are the (borrowing Stodge's label) internationalist leavers supposed to do? Eschew the cause because the chavs are polluting the moral purity of our stance?
There are going to be a lot of angry, disappointed people, no matter what happens. But British qualities of tolerance and fair play will not evaporate after Brexit or Bremain. People come to this country because they know what we're like. We're by and large good and decent folk.
I would like to agree, but fear that the good and decent will find they have encouraged a nasty minority
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
He sounds like Bertie Wooster talking about a snifter in the Drones Club.
I am actually beginning to feel a bit sorry for REMAIN.
I mean they have the support of the UK Govt, the Welsh Govt, the Scottish Govt, the leadership of the Tories, LibDems, SNP, PC, Greens and Labour. All of luvvie-dom, the Universities and most of the top of British Industry.
Just with the resources they have, REMAIN should walk this. I think Richard Nabavi (missing in action) was right when he said REMAIN should have won this by 20 per cent.
Just because they have all the resources, and the forces arraigned against them are weak and disparate and comparatively disorganised.
Cameron really is the man who lost an almost unlosable referendum.
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
He is probably happier spending time with his royalties.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yes - we founded our own that mandated the wearing of a Fez whist eating in cheap middle-eastern restaurants, with the loss of tie stripes for drinking misdeeds. It was tremendous fun; but we must have looked like absolute fools.
The stocks story is potentially toxic for Leave. It might be the only thing that can save us from this fucking disaster now.
Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram! It was a 2pc fall. Big deal! And GBP isn't exactly falling out of bed.
Wait for the next scare about the Eurozone or China, or U.S job figures.
This is just such bollocks and apart from some like Mark Senior who is utterly clueless the rest of you spreading bilge about the end of days should be ashamed of yourselves.
Feck in 2008 there were daily falls of 5% at times around the world - not that long ago again in China's case when jitters hit the market.
Tell me WHY we should stay, tell me what is so good about the E.U.?
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
"Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”"
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
Do golf and squash clubs threaten "deserters" with "consequences" if they quit?
And what's all this "Nobody ever leaves the KGB" nonsense?
The principles at stake in this vote could not be higher.
I will *not*, under any circumstances, be bullied, threatened or intimidated into voting to stay part of this arrogant, contemptible, anti-democratic protection racket.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
I am sure his message will be resonating around the dining clubs of Burslem, Longton, Fenton, Hanley etc this evening...
Isabel Oakeshott tweeting 'rumour' that Tom Watson claims the postal votes in northern towns are a horror show for Remain.
Its the 2016 Holyrood 'SLab to the slaughter experience', if true.
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Are Leavers incapable of reading?
It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION.
Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
The average voter/casual viewer will see this on Sky News and think, oh Brexit isn't a good thing.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
"Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”"
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Never heard of dining clubs, but we do have an excellent local chippy. Any similarity? Same sort of concept? Or off the mark?
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.
Great post and another positive, inspiring comment from a Brexiteer.
I know little about the specifics of what you are talking about as I don't live in London but a serious question.
How do you build affordable housing when a garage sells for more than a normal public sector worker can hope to afford? Short of building wendy houses I don't see how any developer can build affordable housing in the current London market. Hence the need for a serious downward readjustment in house prices in London.
London is not one market, it is hundreds. There are parts of London where you can still buy a flat for 100k. There are parts of London where a flat (without a bath) is 1.5m.
You mean those flats that are essentially one room and a piss pot? This is the thing that is killing the white working class, more than any other sector.
I don't mean to be rude, but I've shared a 450 sq foot flat with two other people. When I see images of "shocking" flats, with three people stuffed into two rooms, I think "I've been there and done that". Compared to places like Hong Kong, where the Chinese working class is still in happy abundance, 450 sq feet between three (adult) people is an abundance.
Sure but sharing with Goldman analysts doesn't count as they are always in the office not the flat
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yup, I have been a member of several dining clubs over the years. The most memorable was the Bitter and Twisted Club in Hong Kong (motto: Asperi at Torte) I have still got the tie.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
It is truly DREADFUL this Brexit idea - I mean, I mean, wages will go UP!
Wages MAY go up for those with jobs - unemployment WILL go up as firms fail to fill vacancies and turn down opportunities for expansion. I worked with a home care provider who consistently turned down work offered because he couldn't get the staff. It was solved by recruiting from Bulgaria - the solution to the problem of "foreigners taking our jobs" is to stop fecking moaning about it and find british workers to do the work...then and only then would there be no need to foreign workers.
Are you the same kraken awakes, that was so incisive and accurate in his commentary leading up to the last election?
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
Whilst I now agree that he is overrated, I can't help thinking that Corbyn has to bear some (most?) of the blame for the Labour party's poor participation
I'm moving to the north as I can't cope with living costs down south anymore, I've had my house valued and it will be on the market some time in.July. I have to move as I can't afford to leave it any longer, if I can't sell it for the asking price my retirement is going to suffer, if I can't sell it things would be even worse. I'm finding it difficult to sleep at the moment. I'm afraid I look at those voting on the off chance that house prices will come down as a result with disgust. I've struggled for years to pay for something that their greed could destroy.
What is their greed?
Wanting to profit from creating conditions that hurt others just for their own profit. There are laudable reasons for voting but that is vile.
Wanting to be able to afford a home is not greed. Under your logic anyone who does not want cheap housing is also greedy and vile because they too are "Wanting to profit from creating conditions that hurt others just for their own profit".
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yes - we founded our own that mandated the wearing of a Fez whist eating in cheap middle-eastern restaurants, with the loss of tie stripes for drinking misdeeds. It was tremendous fun; but we must have looked like absolute fools.
Is such funding renewed on a periodic basis? Do they mean it is secure up until the normal date of renewal?
Here is the relevant part:
"If the public votes to leave on 23 June, we will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020, or up to the date when the EU is due to conclude individual programmes if that is earlier than 2020."
So only for four years, or two years if we take the full two years to leave.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
It is truly DREADFUL this Brexit idea - I mean, I mean, wages will go UP!
Wages MAY go up for those with jobs - unemployment WILL go up as firms fail to fill vacancies and turn down opportunities for expansion. I worked with a home care provider who consistently turned down work offered because he couldn't get the staff. It was solved by recruiting from Bulgaria - the solution to the problem of "foreigners taking our jobs" is to stop fecking moaning about it and find british workers to do the work...then and only then would there be no need to foreign workers.
Are you the same kraken awakes, that was so incisive and accurate in his commentary leading up to the last election?
There are 3 types of people: those who don't care about stock market values; those who care but understand historic ranges and would never measure movements in £s rather than percentages; and those who care, think they understand, but really don't.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yes - we founded our own that mandated the wearing of a Fez whist eating in cheap middle-eastern restaurants, with the loss of tie stripes for drinking misdeeds. It was tremendous fun; but we must have looked like absolute fools.
Did anyone scream wayyycciisstt at you ?
Ahem, you are clearly not down with the kids on this one. This isn't merely waycism. This is blatant and shocking cultural appropriation. You must immediately apologise to the Ottoman people.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Never heard of dining clubs, but we do have an excellent local chippy. Any similarity? Same sort of concept? Or off the mark?
I've been to the curry club at Wetherspoons
In the old days, before all the immigrants took all the jobs, there were things called working men's clubs. You'd have liked them.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
Whilst I now agree that he is overrated, I can't help thinking that Corbyn has to bear some (most?) of the blame for the Labour party's poor participation
Again, the problem has been the message, not the messengers. If the "Remain" message had still been geared solely towards the concerns of Middle England (GDP figures, house prices, multinational businesses leaving, etc.), it wouldn't've have made any difference if the politicians giving that message were Labour or Tory - significant numbers of Labour voters would still have rejected it.
I know little about the specifics of what you are talking about as I don't live in London but a serious question.
How do you build affordable housing when a garage sells for more than a normal public sector worker can hope to afford? Short of building wendy houses I don't see how any developer can build affordable housing in the current London market. Hence the need for a serious downward readjustment in house prices in London.
London is not one market, it is hundreds. There are parts of London where you can still buy a flat for 100k. There are parts of London where a flat (without a bath) is 1.5m.
You mean those flats that are essentially one room and a piss pot? This is the thing that is killing the white working class, more than any other sector.
I don't mean to be rude, but I've shared a 450 sq foot flat with two other people. When I see images of "shocking" flats, with three people stuffed into two rooms, I think "I've been there and done that". Compared to places like Hong Kong, where the Chinese working class is still in happy abundance, 450 sq feet between three (adult) people is an abundance.
One room is not 450 sq ft. The average room in a 1930s built house was 14 x 10 ft = 140 sq ft, and that is what I'm talking about. I chose the average 1930's starter homes because they were bigger than the 1960 starter homes, who's rooms were and are miniscule and betrayal of all architectural norms that the British were led to believe would be their birthright in 1945.
I have lived in one room and small flats. Did you know that there was an unwritten law during Israels early years, when times were hard and money was short, that the minimum size flat for a family should be 46 sq meters, that's 495sq ft. The average new flat is now 170 sq meters or 1,829 sq ft, though there are of course bigger properties, but not many smaller.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Is this a kind of Reverse No True Scotsman? How many righteous Brexiters do you think there are then? As a percentage?
I have to say that the one asset that is highly likely to become more... ahhh... affordable post Brexit is London property.
...
I'm glad you think it's good that this insanity has the potential to plunge London families like mine into negative equity. I have been close to tears at times worried about my family's livelihood.
SNIP.
SNIP.
SNIP
Oh, and my livelihood depends on not making the wrong calls about buying assets. I have a bit of experience....
SNIP
Oh and well done with the job.
Emotional investment makes it hard to be rational. It is why houses should not be considered as investments, but homes.
If the mortgage was affordable in positive equity, it will be affordable in negative equity barring external changes.
Negative equity is one of those irregular verb situations isnt it. I made a sensible property choice (when prices go up), he makes a fortune in flipping his homes, they screwed us by crashing the economy.
Negative impacts can be rooted in causes closer to home - including over stretching, failing to take out adequate mortgage protection insurance etc.
SNIP
Oh and is it not possible that Brexit could bring about external changes through job losses, wage cuts and so on. I don't know if that's so...but here's the rub..nor do you.
SNIP
And as soon as they got one, you'd be gleefully willing down their asset value, telling them how their being pushed into negative equity would be good for the people in the situation they used to be in.
Emotions getting in the way, again. Buying on a bubble is heartbreaking, lord knows I've done it many times - but heartbreak is irrational. Cold, hard, market asset valuations are not.
Where did I say I bought on the bubble ?
I bought my most recent property three years ago and my house had grown considerably in value since then. I just don't see how my family seeing the equity I have gained wiped out is something that I should wish for. Normal people don't wish that on others, either.
I was talking to someone who has put their house on the market today. They were shocked at the valuation and wouldn't mind it going down so younger people can afford houses,bBut that's just selfish Tories for you.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
"Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”"
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
Do golf and squash clubs threaten "deserters" with "consequences" if they quit?
And what's all this "Nobody ever leaves the KGB" nonsense?
The principles at stake in this vote could not be higher.
I will *not*, under any circumstances, be bullied, threatened or intimidated into voting to stay part of this arrogant, contemptible, anti-democratic protection racket.
Let's face it. We've all wanted to be on the committee of the golf club.
I agree with Mr Eagles. A bad narrative is developing for Leave.
I'm worried they may get over-confident and turn out might suffer. It's raining, and we're so far head, I might not bother. One vote won't matter.
Remain has a big problem - it's the called the EU. They're keeping shtum for a few weeks but would you trust them as far as you can throw them?
And there's something cathartic about Leave's "Fuck off. Europe, we're leaving" that Remain can never match. And two fingers to the smug bastards who think they know best.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Leave will still win handsomely. The plummeting stock market won't make much difference: too many people for a variety of reasons are prepared to go for Leave and just see what happens. Nevertheless, I've certainly detected a sudden chill in the air.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Are Leavers incapable of reading? It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION. Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
No if it looks like BS and smells like BS then it probably is BS.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yes - we founded our own that mandated the wearing of a Fez whist eating in cheap middle-eastern restaurants, with the loss of tie stripes for drinking misdeeds. It was tremendous fun; but we must have looked like absolute fools.
Did anyone scream wayyycciisstt at you ?
Nah - I think our maximum membership was about 9 people, and, like all good dining clubs, we were secret.
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Are Leavers incapable of reading? It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION. Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
No if it looks like BS and smells like BS then it probably is BS.
BS is when you smeared ComRes because you stupidly thought Lord Cooper worked for them.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Oh, for goodness sake TSE. You're in FS these days? So the footsie was 2% off today and broke 6,000. It almost hit 5,000 a few years ago.
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Are Leavers incapable of reading?
It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION.
Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
The average voter/casual viewer will see this on Sky News and think, oh Brexit isn't a good thing.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Just read a story on Politics Home that some Labour MP's are unhappy with Alan Johnson's lack of visibility/commitment in this campaign - well, it took a while, it's been staring them in the face for weeks. He's very overrated IMO.
Whilst I now agree that he is overrated, I can't help thinking that Corbyn has to bear some (most?) of the blame for the Labour party's poor participation
To be honest, I think Corbyn has played this right. He doesn't think membership of the EU is a big deal.
Cameron has dug the most enormous booby-trapped hole for himself, and fallen in.
I agree with Mr Eagles. A bad narrative is developing for Leave.
I'm worried they may get over-confident and turn out might suffer. It's raining, and we're so far head, I might not bother. One vote won't matter.
Remain has a big problem - it's the called the EU. They're keeping shtum for a few weeks but would you trust them as far as you can throw them?
And there's something cathartic about Leave's "Fuck off. Europe, we're leaving" that Remain can never match. And two fingers to the smug bastards who think they know best.
How can they compete with that?
The vote to leave is just the start of the process. The EU may seem a whole lot less hostile in a few months time. Let's see bow many still want to breakaway come Christmas.
Finally a thread where people are finally realising the implications of Brexit. There will be a huge shock to the economy, followed by years of uncertainty.
In your view.
No...not in my view. In the view of the IMF, our government, 85% of economists, bankers, industry, virtually everyone. In reposte the leave campaign have thrown the spectre that Turkey will imminently join the EU, that no-one backs up.
You are on the side my friend of racists who are stoking up fear of immigration to deliver an outcome that will be truly disastrous for our country, for your house value, for the NHS, for our Armed Forces, for our influence and role in the world.
No. You are on the side of the elite that have stuffed the poor across a continent. That have enriched themselves to an obscene extent by forming protected cliques of power and influence. I don't give a fig about Turkey.
You are on the side of the oppressor, those that will squeeze the last dime out of the poor, drive wages down and prices up.
The NHS isn't a disaster now? Brexit will not have a noticeable effect on it. Your faith in the vested interest is brave, in the Sir Humphry sense.
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
Does that hold true for remain supporters as well like you?
Stodge , the problem is that your view is not typical of nor shared by most of Leave supporters . For them xenophobia rules
Mark this is how you view the world, sadly though cracked glasses. Which of the LEAVE supporters on here disagree with Stodge's words? I agree with them in that posting. So we have something in common. Get over it!
Leave supporters on here are nowhere near typical of Leave supporters or voters in the country as a whole .
I have to say that the one asset that is highly likely to become more... ahhh... affordable post Brexit is London property.
An unparalleled amount of new supply coming, at a time when demand is dipping (both from EU and off-plan foreign investors).
Hong Kong property fell 60% in one 18 month stretch. I think something similar is entirely possible in London.
Which is good, because my wife would really like to upgrade.
I'm glad you think it's good that this insanity has the potential to plunge London families like mine into negative equity. I have been close to tears at times worried about my family's livelihood.
Asset price bubbles rarely end well. It sadly hurts some people - and that is why as a society we ameliorate that.
What about families who don't have a massive asset to live in? There is almost always someone worse off.
Don't be so patronising. There a plenty of people who have just bought their first home and so on. It isn't any sort of an asset if you're plunged into negative equity.....
Surely a house is first a home?
The laws of supply and demand will still apply.
House prices are too high, or do you think otherwise?
It might have escaped your notice there may have been other periods of time where negative equity occurred.
I had 2 friends badly affected - it may amaze people to learn that they kept their houses and they survived.
But this is only about project fear isn't it.
Give me positive reasons to stay.
It is amazing how those saying leavers are heartless and don't care about people but at the same time just ignore the life destroying mistakes made by the EU.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yesbi am a member if the Batti Wallahs dining society that meets monthly at the National Liberal Club.
I have to say that the one asset that is highly likely to become more... ahhh... affordable post Brexit is London property.
...
snip
I was talking to someone who has put their house on the market today. They were shocked at the valuation and wouldn't mind it going down so younger people can afford houses,bBut that's just selfish Tories for you.
They are welcome to sell it for less if they wish.
And I don't understand the selfish Tories reference.
I have to say that the one asset that is highly likely to become more... ahhh... affordable post Brexit is London property.
...
I'm glad you think it's good that this insanity has the potential to plunge London families like mine into negative equity. I have been close to tears at times worried about my family's livelihood.
SNIP.
SNIP.
SNIP
Oh, and my livelihood depends on not making the wrong calls about buying assets. I have a bit of experience....
SNIP
Oh and well done with the job.
Emotional investment makes it hard to be rational. It is why houses should not be considered as investments, but homes.
If the mortgage was affordable in positive equity, it will be affordable in negative equity barring external changes.
Negative equity is one of those irregular verb situations isnt it. I made a sensible property choice (when prices go up), he makes a fortune in flipping his homes, they screwed us by crashing the economy.
Negative impacts can be rooted in causes closer to home - including over stretching, failing to take out adequate mortgage protection insurance etc.
SNIP
Oh and is it not possible that Brexit could bring about external changes through job losses, wage cuts and so on. I don't know if that's so...but here's the rub..nor do you.
SNIP
And as soon as they got one, you'd be gleefully willing down their asset value, telling them how their being pushed into negative equity would be good for the people in the situation they used to be in.
Emotions getting in the way, again. Buying on a bubble is heartbreaking, lord knows I've done it many times - but heartbreak is irrational. Cold, hard, market asset valuations are not.
Where did I say I bought on the bubble ?
I bought my most recent property three years ago and my house had grown considerably in value since then. I just don't see how my family seeing the equity I have gained wiped out is something that I should wish for. Normal people don't wish that on others, either.
A working class northern Labour voter is shown three doors. Behind one is a restriction on immigration, behind the other two are City bankers warning about the stock market crashing.
He picks door one, the host opens door two to reveal a wide boy Southern softie crying because his bonus is down 20% this year.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
I used to be, in the decadent eighties. Many happy japes with my medical chums. We used to book tables under the name Frank Melaena and Party.
Stuart Rose puts his finger on the pulse of popular opinion once again:
Rose also urged voters to be as “selfish” as possible and vote to protect their finances as well as those of their children and grandchildren.
He said: “Nobody has ever left the EU. It’s a big social and economic experiment. At the end of the day, it’s like joining a golf club or a dining club, or any sort of club, a squash club. We may not like all the members, we may not like all the rules.
“We may not like the cost of teeing off or the cost of playing on a squash court. But we joined the club. And we’ve got more chance if we’re in the club of being elected to a committee or influencing the rules if we’re in the club.”
Drawing analogies with golf and squash clubs are clearly the best way of resonating with Labour Leave voters across the land.
A true man of the people.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
They sound very metropolitan elitey.
A couple in Oxford, and over the years a couple in London. Sadly my wife made me choose between Mosimann's and Boodle's despite my argument that they served different purposes.
Comments
A true man of the people.
You are on the side my friend of racists who are stoking up fear of immigration to deliver an outcome that will be truly disastrous for our country, for your house value, for the NHS, for our Armed Forces, for our influence and role in the world.
'I have to say, my friend, having spent the better part of the last 10 days in Greece I've seen what a "huge shock to the economy" really looks like.
I've done this politics lark for a long time and one of the lessons I learnt early on was what people say during an election campaign bears no resemblance to how what they say once the votes are counted.
I understand REMAIN trying to paint the most dystopic vision possible for a post-LEAVE Britain - I get that, I really do. There are people and companies who do very well out of the current situation but our Government, society, economy and politics doesn't just function for them but for all of us.
The rhetoric of the campaign will vanish like the morning mist once the votes are counted because it will be in everyone's interests to make the result work whatever it is. There may be some political turmoil but that's politics. As far as the wider economy is concerned, June 24th will be "just another day".
I've been told too often about Doomsday that it may be I won't either recognise the doom when it arrives or the day when it turns up but it won't happen if we vote to leave the EU. Life will go on and, the wonder of human adaptability being what it is, we will make it work.
IF, as I hope, we vote to LEAVE, a process will begin as will a second and arguably far more significant and interesting debate about our political, economic and societal future to which we will all have a say. Arguably it's the debate we've never really had since 1945 but it's the one we need to have about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.
I'm an internationalist and I realise not all LEAVE voters think as I do but I've come to the conclusion that however much we may hope for that "reform" of the EU, it won't happen and we need to construct a new positive relationship with the world. That might be as part of a revamped EFTA or it may not but I deeply resent being told if I support LEAVE, I am turning my back on the world.
That's not how I see it.'
LIKE
I am sure his message will be resonating around the dining clubs of Burslem, Longton, Fenton, Hanley etc this evening...
Oh, they don't care its all about the result not facts.
It is truly DREADFUL this Brexit idea - I mean, I mean, wages will go UP!
Mr Stodge fine post.
When I see things like that I wonder "do these people actually want us to leave?" Is this some clever trick they're playing? I always said that it was very difficult for Leave to win this, but not that difficult for Remain to lose it. Very odd.
Billions that they say could go to fund the NHS will instead go in to the pockets of super-farms or the elite country estates who will net millions a year in subsidies and the rest will be going to help prop up an inefficient farming sector that can't stand on its own feet...through a grant system that that is riddled with corruption and fraud.
Stuart Rose sounds like the sort of twat who joins a golf club for networking purposes.
Are there racists in the Leave camp? Undoubtedly, how could there not be? There are, in my view, plenty of equally pernicious racists in the Remain cohort; they despise the WWC - and why not? They're not always easy to love.
Some Leavers want to pull up the drawbridge. A tiny minority would love to deport all the 'darkies' and 'muslimics'.
What are the (borrowing Stodge's label) internationalist leavers supposed to do? Eschew the cause because the chavs are polluting the moral purity of our stance?
There are going to be a lot of angry, disappointed people, no matter what happens. But British qualities of tolerance and fair play will not evaporate after Brexit or Bremain. People come to this country because they know what we're like. We're by and large good and decent folk.
Yet again - share prices have been volatile for years now. This is just a pathetic attempt to scare people for short term advantage.
In terms of a potential vow. Something like that may win over some voters but it is weak.
The Leave campaign can simply reply:
"The Prime Minister informed us that his new deal was a victory for the UK, we had a new special status. Now, however, he informs us his deal was fundamentally flawed. So he asks us to believe that what he could not achieve in years of negotiation will be achieved at some vague point in the future and after we have voted to remain in the EU. Nonsense. The Prime Minister has today demonstrated that his case has been built on sand and that the real risks are in remaining in the EU. He asks us to believe in promises of change and he asks us to belief that tomorrow will be different to the previous 42 years. We shouldn't have to beg a supranational organisation for the ability to control our borders. No, only a vote to Leave can let us take back control; seize this opportunity. Vote Leave."
No doubt the excitible schoolgirls on the trading desks will all run around thinking the sky is falling on 24/6. Realistic investors have been hedged against that for a while now.
Sell in May and go away.
Very well said, Sir. I agree with every word.
Don't forget the dining clubs.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
I bought my most recent property three years ago and my house had grown considerably in value since then. I just don't see how my family seeing the equity I have gained wiped out is something that I should wish for. Normal people don't wish that on others, either.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Never heard of dining clubs, but we do have an excellent local chippy. Any similarity? Same sort of concept? Or off the mark?
Wages MAY go up for those with jobs - unemployment WILL go up as firms fail to fill vacancies and turn down opportunities for expansion. I worked with a home care provider who consistently turned down work offered because he couldn't get the staff. It was solved by recruiting from Bulgaria - the solution to the problem of "foreigners taking our jobs" is to stop fecking moaning about it and find british workers to do the work...then and only then would there be no need to foreign workers.
It's about the PERCEPTION. PER-CEP-TION.
Say it slowly, P-E-R-C-E-P-T-I-O-N
The average voter/casual viewer will see this on Sky News and think, oh Brexit isn't a good thing.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/742790117211922432
He sounds like Bertie Wooster talking about a snifter in the Drones Club.
I am actually beginning to feel a bit sorry for REMAIN.
I mean they have the support of the UK Govt, the Welsh Govt, the Scottish Govt, the leadership of the Tories, LibDems, SNP, PC, Greens and Labour. All of luvvie-dom, the Universities and most of the top of British Industry.
Just with the resources they have, REMAIN should walk this. I think Richard Nabavi (missing in action) was right when he said REMAIN should have won this by 20 per cent.
Just because they have all the resources, and the forces arraigned against them are weak and disparate and comparatively disorganised.
Cameron really is the man who lost an almost unlosable referendum.
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yes - we founded our own that mandated the wearing of a Fez whist eating in cheap middle-eastern restaurants, with the loss of tie stripes for drinking misdeeds. It was tremendous fun; but we must have looked like absolute fools.
This is just such bollocks and apart from some like Mark Senior who is utterly clueless the rest of you spreading bilge about the end of days should be ashamed of yourselves.
Feck in 2008 there were daily falls of 5% at times around the world - not that long ago again in China's case when jitters hit the market.
Tell me WHY we should stay, tell me what is so good about the E.U.?
Job creation - LOL try another one
Security - oh dear................
Go on, surprise us.
'No...not in my view. In the view of the IMF, our government, 85% of economists'
85% of the 600 economists that replied to the questionnaire the other 3400 didn't bother to reply.
And what's all this "Nobody ever leaves the KGB" nonsense?
The principles at stake in this vote could not be higher.
I will *not*, under any circumstances, be bullied, threatened or intimidated into voting to stay part of this arrogant, contemptible, anti-democratic protection racket.
Isabel Oakeshott tweeting 'rumour' that Tom Watson claims the postal votes in northern towns are a horror show for Remain.
Its the 2016 Holyrood 'SLab to the slaughter experience', if true.
It might work, but I'll be fucked if I ever vote Tory again. Shame I can't vote UKIP though.
I've been to the curry club at Wetherspoons
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Yup, I have been a member of several dining clubs over the years. The most memorable was the Bitter and Twisted Club in Hong Kong (motto: Asperi at Torte) I have still got the tie.
If the majority view doesnt fit in with yours you have to resort to insults.
You are being found out at last.
Are you the same kraken awakes, that was so incisive and accurate in his commentary leading up to the last election?
"If the public votes to leave on 23 June, we will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020, or up to the date when the EU is due to conclude individual programmes if that is earlier than 2020."
So only for four years, or two years if we take the full two years to leave.
No - I don't think I was actually
I have been to many working men's clubs.
I have lived in one room and small flats. Did you know that there was an unwritten law during Israels early years, when times were hard and money was short, that the minimum size flat for a family should be 46 sq meters, that's 495sq ft. The average new flat is now 170 sq meters or 1,829 sq ft, though there are of course bigger properties, but not many smaller.
I'm worried they may get over-confident and turn out might suffer. It's raining, and we're so far head, I might not bother. One vote won't matter.
Remain has a big problem - it's the called the EU. They're keeping shtum for a few weeks but would you trust them as far as you can throw them?
And there's something cathartic about Leave's "Fuck off. Europe, we're leaving" that Remain can never match. And two fingers to the smug bastards who think they know best.
How can they compete with that?
Has anyone here ever been a member of a dining club ?
Are we the wrong type Leaves?
And anyway, we were not named after Rhodes....
They sound very metropolitan elitey.
Cameron has dug the most enormous booby-trapped hole for himself, and fallen in.
Why should Corbyn go and haul him out ?
You are on the side of the oppressor, those that will squeeze the last dime out of the poor, drive wages down and prices up.
The NHS isn't a disaster now? Brexit will not have a noticeable effect on it. Your faith in the vested interest is brave, in the Sir Humphry sense.
The laws of supply and demand will still apply.
House prices are too high, or do you think otherwise?
It might have escaped your notice there may have been other periods of time where negative equity occurred.
I had 2 friends badly affected - it may amaze people to learn that they kept their houses and they survived.
But this is only about project fear isn't it.
Give me positive reasons to stay.
It is amazing how those saying leavers are heartless and don't care about people but at the same time just ignore the life destroying mistakes made by the EU.
Yesbi am a member if the Batti Wallahs dining society that meets monthly at the National Liberal Club.
He picks door one, the host opens door two to reveal a wide boy Southern softie crying because his bonus is down 20% this year.
Does he switch?
They are welcome to sell it for less if they wish.
And I don't understand the selfish Tories reference.
I used to be, in the decadent eighties. Many happy japes with my medical chums. We used to book tables under the name Frank Melaena and Party.
I don't recall shagging any pigs though.
A couple in Oxford, and over the years a couple in London. Sadly my wife made me choose between Mosimann's and Boodle's despite my argument that they served different purposes.