Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
If we vote for Brexit the EU should open negotiations with EFTA on June 24th to incorporate their institutions into the EU's and formalise an associate member status.
Fabians’ plan is to levy the one-off tax on those with assets over £10 million or who use “aggressive tax avoidance”. Those with over £20 million in assets will suffer an even bigger expropriation of their wealth. The authors of this plan think this will avoid losing votes as it will hit only the 0.1%.
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
Which is basically what is needed
Absolutely right; and the quicker everyone realises this, the happier we will all be.
The EU is not awful or evil, despite what some people think. It is merely not for us.
What benefits do we get from the EEA that we don't get from the EU?
Scott_P getting pretty desperate quoting AA Gill of all unpleasant people...
And the article is bollox, and simplistic bollox at that. Divide the country into people who are progressive, open minded, good Europeans, and narrow minded backwards looking "little Englanders". it really is that simple isn't it, out of his Islington window.
OK. If you say so. Keep writing that kind of stuff to maximise the Leave vote! Patronising tw@
Here's the other side article from Rod Liddle - they came as a matching pair in STimes
It's struck me for a long time that for a lot of folk diversity equates people to a tube of smarties. You're allowed to look different, but inside: all the same.
The biggest risk I see for Brexit is that I'm dependent on the calibre of the people who will implement it. The economic risk I've factored in. It will be easy to screw up an exit.
Eurosceptic MP James Cleverly has this novel idea for EU reform: why don't they pay us to stay in if we are that important?
He also rubbished the suggestion by Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, that Brexit could lead to the "destruction of Western civilisation".
Fabians’ plan is to levy the one-off tax on those with assets over £10 million or who use “aggressive tax avoidance”. Those with over £20 million in assets will suffer an even bigger expropriation of their wealth. The authors of this plan think this will avoid losing votes as it will hit only the 0.1%.
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
This is the same A A Gill (a Scotsman with a grievance) who wrote an ENTIRE BOOK about the awfulness of the English, "red faced blimps, like screaming toddlers, no one will miss them when their country has gone" - it was nauseating
He's a weird horrible man. I know many people that know him and loathe him. Ignore.
Sorry if my 'get our country back phrase' has riled you midwinter.
However the image of plucky patriots fighting uncaring federalist robots is anything but faux.
Contrast. I am spending my time hand delivering hundreds of Vote Leave leaflets which provide information about the EU and why my team believes those facts support a vote to Leave. My leaflets say they are from the Leave campaign.
The remain side by contrast sent out their information leaflet equally as partisan yet(branded as Her Majesty's Government, to every house in the country at tax payers expense.
Forgive me my phrase but Leave is the campaign of the little battalions, the battered old past it paddle steamers going across the English channel for one more load off the beaches and yes of those nostalgic for a better Britain that can and will be again. And we are going to do it.
I dislike the phrase because, firstly, it sounds like the kind of thing a recently spurned teenage girl might say about her departed beau in a particularly painful novel, but principally as I said before, because those who use it like to consider themselves more patriotic than anyone who might vote for Remain. I'm hoping your last paragraph was written with your tongue firmly in your cheek.....
Scott_P getting pretty desperate quoting AA Gill of all unpleasant people...
And the article is bollox, and simplistic bollox at that. Divide the country into people who are progressive, open minded, good Europeans, and narrow minded backwards looking "little Englanders". it really is that simple isn't it, out of his Islington window.
OK. If you say so. Keep writing that kind of stuff to maximise the Leave vote! Patronising tw@
Here's the other side article from Rod Liddle - they came as a matching pair in STimes
It's struck me for a long time that for a lot of folk diversity equates people to a tube of smarties. You're allowed to look different, but inside: all the same.
The biggest risk I see for Brexit is that I'm dependent on the calibre of the people who will implement it. The economic risk I've factored in. It will be easy to screw up an exit.
It's the best £8.67 pcm I spend. I don't bother with the tablet do da stuff - simple online gives me everything.
On the subject of diverse opinions - Brexiteers seem much more willing to take risks and be different. And not scared of it.
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
If we vote for Brexit the EU should open negotiations with EFTA on June 24th to incorporate their institutions into the EU's and formalise an associate member status.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
Sorry if my 'get our country back phrase' has riled you midwinter.
However the image of plucky patriots fighting uncaring federalist robots is anything but faux.
Contrast. I am spending my time hand delivering hundreds of Vote Leave leaflets which provide information about the EU and why my team believes those facts support a vote to Leave. My leaflets say they are from the Leave campaign.
The remain side by contrast sent out their information leaflet equally as partisan yet(branded as Her Majesty's Government, to every house in the country at tax payers expense.
Forgive me my phrase but Leave is the campaign of the little battalions, the battered old past it paddle steamers going across the English channel for one more load off the beaches and yes of those nostalgic for a better Britain that can and will be again. And we are going to do it.
I was wavering but this has tipped me into the remain camp. Paddle steamer, FFS. I will be one of the few waverers who can point to the exact moment they reached their final decision
Scott_P getting pretty desperate quoting AA Gill of all unpleasant people...
And the article is bollox, and simplistic bollox at that. Divide the country into people who are progressive, open minded, good Europeans, and narrow minded backwards looking "little Englanders". it really is that simple isn't it, out of his Islington window.
OK. If you say so. Keep writing that kind of stuff to maximise the Leave vote! Patronising tw@
Here's the other side article from Rod Liddle - they came as a matching pair in STimes
It's struck me for a long time that for a lot of folk diversity equates people to a tube of smarties. You're allowed to look different, but inside: all the same.
The biggest risk I see for Brexit is that I'm dependent on the calibre of the people who will implement it. The economic risk I've factored in. It will be easy to screw up an exit.
It's the best £8.67 pcm I spend. I don't bother with the tablet do da stuff - simple online gives me everything.
It can't compete with my Spotify Premium. I can live without the Times.
Eurosceptic MP James Cleverly has this novel idea for EU reform: why don't they pay us to stay in if we are that important?
He also rubbished the suggestion by Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, that Brexit could lead to the "destruction of Western civilisation".
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
Which is basically what is needed
Absolutely right; and the quicker everyone realises this, the happier we will all be.
The EU is not awful or evil, despite what some people think. It is merely not for us.
What benefits do we get from the EEA that we don't get from the EU?
We only pay about 1/7th - 1/8th of the gross contribution or about 1/4 of the net contribution we pay now. We only have to obey the laws directly concerned with the Single Market. Somewhere over 75% of EU legislation would no longer apply to us. No CFP and CAP. We get to vote on the important international bodies which actually decide the rules and standards of trade. We are no longer subject to rulings of the ECJ
Looking forward we will no longer be at risk of Ever Closer Union.
Scott_P getting pretty desperate quoting AA Gill of all unpleasant people...
And the article is bollox, and simplistic bollox at that. Divide the country into people who are progressive, open minded, good Europeans, and narrow minded backwards looking "little Englanders". it really is that simple isn't it, out of his Islington window.
OK. If you say so. Keep writing that kind of stuff to maximise the Leave vote! Patronising tw@
Here's the other side article from Rod Liddle - they came as a matching pair in STimes
It's struck me for a long time that for a lot of folk diversity equates people to a tube of smarties. You're allowed to look different, but inside: all the same.
The biggest risk I see for Brexit is that I'm dependent on the calibre of the people who will implement it. The economic risk I've factored in. It will be easy to screw up an exit.
It's the best £8.67 pcm I spend. I don't bother with the tablet do da stuff - simple online gives me everything.
It can't compete with my Spotify Premium. I can live without the Times.
I've been paying a tenner for SPremium for a year and keep forgetting to cancel it!
Sorry if my 'get our country back phrase' has riled you midwinter.
However the image of plucky patriots fighting uncaring federalist robots is anything but faux.
Contrast. I am spending my time hand delivering hundreds of Vote Leave leaflets which provide information about the EU and why my team believes those facts support a vote to Leave. My leaflets say they are from the Leave campaign.
The remain side by contrast sent out their information leaflet equally as partisan yet(branded as Her Majesty's Government, to every house in the country at tax payers expense.
Forgive me my phrase but Leave is the campaign of the little battalions, the battered old past it paddle steamers going across the English channel for one more load off the beaches and yes of those nostalgic for a better Britain that can and will be again. And we are going to do it.
I was wavering but this has tipped me into the remain camp. Paddle steamer, FFS. I will be one of the few waverers who can point to the exact moment they reached their final decision
Yep. That was grim
Deciding how you are going to vote in one of the most important elections based on an anonymous comment on PB does seem just a bit OTT!
Should England get dumped out of Euro 2016 by Slovakia next Monday evening, will Woy and the boys arrive home via Luton Airport before the polls open on Thursday morning? - This could prove crucial to the referendum outcome.
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
If we vote for Brexit the EU should open negotiations with EFTA on June 24th to incorporate their institutions into the EU's and formalise an associate member status.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
I agree and am strongly for Remain.
The more rational Leavers who wish to retain a relationship with the EU via staying in the EEA do have a blind spot about how Brexit would itself change the geometry of European politics. EFTA in its present form would not survive the UK attempting to use it as a means to claim squatters' rights to stay in the EEA.
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
If we vote for Brexit the EU should open negotiations with EFTA on June 24th to incorporate their institutions into the EU's and formalise an associate member status.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
The EU isn't working for Greece. Or Italy. Or Portugal. Or France, really. Or Spain. Or Europe.
Europe is the slowest growing continent on the planet.
I would think LatAm is shrinking right now, given that GDP growth is negative in Brazil, Venezuela, etc.
The forex markets, judging by dealers on Twitter, are convinced it's a 5 point lead for REMAIN
I HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY'RE RIGHT
It's an interesting test, tho. If they are proven correct it means the markets have inside info and we should look to them for early indicators.
If they had insider info wouldn't they be better not saying anything on twitter? You know, you wouldn't want to give the authorities the impression you were quite happy to use privileged info for personal gain or anything like that.
Dunno much about A A Gill's political views or likeability but the best piece of popular history I have just about ever read was this about the Battle of Towton:
Should England get dumped out of Euro 2016 by Slovakia next Monday evening, will Woy and the boys arrive home via Luton Airport before the polls open on Thursday morning? - This could prove crucial to the referendum outcome.
Should England get dumped out of Euro 2016 by Slovakia next Monday evening, will Woy and the boys arrive home via Luton Airport before the polls open on Thursday morning? - This could prove crucial to the referendum outcome.
Richard Tyndall. The whole leave campaign has been based on immigration. I can't see that being acceptable.
Actually - no! Vote Leave carefully kept away from immigration - until Purdah started. Whether it was due to Purdah or a coincidence in timings, I do not know.
Sorry if my 'get our country back phrase' has riled you midwinter.
However the image of plucky patriots fighting uncaring federalist robots is anything but faux.
Contrast. I am spending my time hand delivering hundreds of Vote Leave leaflets which provide information about the EU and why my team believes those facts support a vote to Leave. My leaflets say they are from the Leave campaign.
The remain side by contrast sent out their information leaflet equally as partisan yet(branded as Her Majesty's Government, to every house in the country at tax payers expense.
Forgive me my phrase but Leave is the campaign of the little battalions, the battered old past it paddle steamers going across the English channel for one more load off the beaches and yes of those nostalgic for a better Britain that can and will be again. And we are going to do it.
I was wavering but this has tipped me into the remain camp. Paddle steamer, FFS. I will be one of the few waverers who can point to the exact moment they reached their final decision
Yep. That was grim
Deciding how you are going to vote in one of the most important elections based on an anonymous comment on PB does seem just a bit OTT!
Well yeah .....but really, battered old paddle steamers? Not sure that's an image Leave want to be using to describe themselves. However apt.........
Richard Tyndall made an interesting point last night. Post-Brexit you can't just discount the views of Remainers. They will still represent a large part of the population. They plus a portion of the Leave vote may actually represent a majority for EEA/EFTA. As leavers constantly tell us, this is not an election. There is no Leave manifesto. All Leave means is ceasing to be an EU member state.
I am not sure that I agree, but there is an argument to be made here and it could provide Boris with some real wriggle room once he gets negotiations underway and he comes under pressure from the City and industry.
It's pretty clear to me we will go into EEA/EFTA with an emergency brake on migration, if necessary, and it is highly likely we will end up staying there.
As that voodoo Express poll shows, this position would command the consent of a large majority of Brits.
That may be right. EEA/EFTA would give more control over welfare etc, but in practice would make little difference as most migrants from the EU comes here looking for jobs, which they would still be free to do. It's a second best option that I could definitely live with. But it would leave 25%-30% of the population very angry indeed. That's very good news for UKIP and as it would be the Tories who did the deal they would be seen as the betrayers.
I think there will be a scramble to get on EEA after a Leave vote. Remainers will know the game is up for continued membership and will work with those Leavers concerned about minimising damage to the economy to get the next best thing.
The problem is, I don't think EEA will work for Britain. It retains all the things people dislike about the EU - remote decision making, giving up control over parts of immigration - while removing the institutional framework that provides the discipline to keep the EU together. The Norwegian prime minister and others have talked about EEA needing a spirit of compromise, and good faith. The illusion of Britain thinking it can do what it wants in the EEA when it is committed to doing the same as before I think will over-stress the EEA, which is a more fragile arrangement than the EU
Great outcome for the EU though, much the same as the status quo but the British can't veto things.
Good for the EU in the long run as it would promote a two tier Europe.
If we vote for Brexit the EU should open negotiations with EFTA on June 24th to incorporate their institutions into the EU's and formalise an associate member status.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
I agree and am strongly for Remain.
The more rational Leavers who wish to retain a relationship with the EU via staying in the EEA do have a blind spot about how Brexit would itself change the geometry of European politics. EFTA in its present form would not survive the UK attempting to use it as a means to claim squatters' rights to stay in the EEA.
Of course it would. The big difference between the EU and EFTA is that the latter does not require its members to follow common rules on anything but trade. Nor can any individual country be outvoted. It is a completely different dynamic to the EU.
Richard Tyndall. The whole leave campaign has been based on immigration. I can't see that being acceptable.
It will depend on what the will is of the whole population - Remainers and Brexiters - after we Leave. The votes of those who voted Remain will be just as valid as those who voted Leave in any future decisions on our relationship with the Single Market.
The forex markets, judging by dealers on Twitter, are convinced it's a 5 point lead for REMAIN
I HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY'RE RIGHT
It's an interesting test, tho. If they are proven correct it means the markets have inside info and we should look to them for early indicators.
The pollsters need to be ultra careful. If information is leaking out, the market abuse consequences for a market with over $300bn of daily turnover would be horrific.
Mr. Rentool, that's a quite rancid perversion of justice in Qatar.
I am sure FIFA will take this stuff very serious and consider if holding a world cup in the country fits with the values of such as equality that FIFA require host nations to embrace...
Or perhaps there are several billion other reasons why they won't.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
I agree and am strongly for Remain.
The more rational Leavers who wish to retain a relationship with the EU via staying in the EEA do have a blind spot about how Brexit would itself change the geometry of European politics. EFTA in its present form would not survive the UK attempting to use it as a means to claim squatters' rights to stay in the EEA.
Of course it would. The big difference between the EU and EFTA is that the latter does not require its members to follow common rules on anything but trade. Nor can any individual country be outvoted. It is a completely different dynamic to the EU.
But the raison d'etre of EFTA is access to the EEA of which the EU is the dominant part. If the EU doesn't like that arrangement it can, over time, make sure it doesn't go on that way.
I would think LatAm is shrinking right now, given that GDP growth is negative in Brazil, Venezuela, etc.
Perhaps at the very moment (dunno). But over the last ten years (a more sensible measure) LatAm has outstripped the EU
That's because they were comodity exporters at a time when the price of oil went from $30 to $150. The correlation between GDP growth and commodity prices is basically one for all of LatAm. Put in context, 93% of Venezuela's exports are oil; three-quarters of Argentina's, and two-thirds of Brazil's exports are primary commodities. The numbers will be similar, I'm sure, for Chile and the like.
Look, I totally buy the EU is not going to be the economic powerhouse of the world in the next decade, but last time we had a commodity down-cycle (1982-1999), Latin American basically went 18 years without growing.
This is the same A A Gill (a Scotsman with a grievance) who wrote an ENTIRE BOOK about the awfulness of the English
Yep, we obviously had a time-travelling named person sent back to indoctrinate him in the ways of Anglo hatred..
'Gill was born in Edinburgh to English parents, television producer and director Michael Gill and actress Yvonne Gilan, and brother to Nicholas. The family moved back to the south of England when he was one year old.'
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
This is the same A A Gill (a Scotsman with a grievance) who wrote an ENTIRE BOOK about the awfulness of the English, "red faced blimps, like screaming toddlers, no one will miss them when their country has gone" - it was nauseating
He's a weird horrible man. I know many people that know him and loathe him. Ignore.
He also shot a baboon IIRC - just to see how it felt.
He's an excellent prose stylist. But beyond restaurant criticism I wouldn't pay tuppence for his opinions, he is a paranoid hater by nature, bristling with contempt, especially for the English.
Ex smack addict, too.
Isn't he actually an Englishman pretending to be a Scot?
TSE 1m TSE @TSEofPB Staring intently at @guardian_clark twitter feed for that ICM poll. It is days like this I wish I wasn't interested in politics or betting.
Agreed that it is better than complete isolation, but is a much worse option than remaining in the EU, because it's fragile and won't work for the UK. The EU does work, even people don't like it much.
I agree and am strongly for Remain.
The more rational Leavers who wish to retain a relationship with the EU via staying in the EEA do have a blind spot about how Brexit would itself change the geometry of European politics. EFTA in its present form would not survive the UK attempting to use it as a means to claim squatters' rights to stay in the EEA.
Of course it would. The big difference between the EU and EFTA is that the latter does not require its members to follow common rules on anything but trade. Nor can any individual country be outvoted. It is a completely different dynamic to the EU.
But the raison d'etre of EFTA is access to the EEA of which the EU is the dominant part. If the EU doesn't like that arrangement it can, over time, make sure it doesn't go on that way.
No it can't. The EEA agreement is bound by treaty. Unless they want to break the treaty entirely there is really nothing they can do about it.
Comments
http://order-order.com/2016/06/13/jarvis-backs-fabian-wealth-tax-proposals-citing-hedge-fund-profiteering/
Mansion Tax to windfall Wealth Tax.
It's struck me for a long time that for a lot of folk diversity equates people to a tube of smarties. You're allowed to look different, but inside: all the same.
The biggest risk I see for Brexit is that I'm dependent on the calibre of the people who will implement it. The economic risk I've factored in. It will be easy to screw up an exit.
Eurosceptic MP James Cleverly has this novel idea for EU reform: why don't they pay us to stay in if we are that important?
He also rubbished the suggestion by Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, that Brexit could lead to the "destruction of Western civilisation".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/eu-referendum-tory-donor-funding-david-cameron-gordon-brown-live/#update-20160613-1429
I'm hoping your last paragraph was written with your tongue firmly in your cheek.....
On the subject of diverse opinions - Brexiteers seem much more willing to take risks and be different. And not scared of it.
We only have to obey the laws directly concerned with the Single Market. Somewhere over 75% of EU legislation would no longer apply to us.
No CFP and CAP.
We get to vote on the important international bodies which actually decide the rules and standards of trade.
We are no longer subject to rulings of the ECJ
Looking forward we will no longer be at risk of Ever Closer Union.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-odds-idUKKCN0YZ0J6
The idea we get back £100bn (perhaps more) from the EU is a shade optimistic.
Mr. T, that'd make the last few ICMs quite the pendulum.
The more rational Leavers who wish to retain a relationship with the EU via staying in the EEA do have a blind spot about how Brexit would itself change the geometry of European politics. EFTA in its present form would not survive the UK attempting to use it as a means to claim squatters' rights to stay in the EEA.
towton-bloodbath-changed-our-history.html
The worst place?
"A court in Qatar has convicted a Dutch woman of having sex outside marriage after she told police she was raped."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36516006
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/15/another-reason-why-cameron-shouldnt-hold-the-referendum-next-june/
Sterling falls as investors fret over Brexit uncertainty
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36515816
Vote Leave co-convenor allegedly failed to declare shareholdings in company offering tax planning for non-domiciled residents
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/13/labour-mp-gisela-stuart-inquiry-alleged-failure-declare-interests-vestra-wealth
The pollsters need to be ultra careful. If information is leaking out, the market abuse consequences for a market with over $300bn of daily turnover would be horrific.
Or perhaps there are several billion other reasons why they won't.
No Mr. Sharpe, either you or the reuters journalist is mistaken.
You didn't halve your odds, you cut them from 2/1 to 7/4. That's about a 6% reduction depending on how you calculate these things.
Definitely nowhere near half, though!
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result/bet-history/leave/today
Look, I totally buy the EU is not going to be the economic powerhouse of the world in the next decade, but last time we had a commodity down-cycle (1982-1999), Latin American basically went 18 years without growing.
Please. Make it stop.
'Gill was born in Edinburgh to English parents, television producer and director Michael Gill and actress Yvonne Gilan, and brother to Nicholas. The family moved back to the south of England when he was one year old.'
http://tinyurl.com/jtkspxa
I will be happy with mine.
No wonder productivity numbers are so weak...
Obviously FX markets are 24/7, but GBPUSD liquidity will dwindle as London goes home.
39% Leave
13% Leave and EFTA
33% Remain
Only regions favouring remain over Micky Flanagan Leave (out-out) were London, Scotland and NI.
Did I buy it ?
Did I heck D;
I have sent 18 emails since 8am. I think it safe to say Monday has been a complete write off.
Even though I'm making gradual rather than swift progress, I feel much better by comparison
Mildly miffed the Skyrim remaster appears to be full price, though.
If you weren't shifting paper, I'd be worried!
You must surely not tinker with the methodology once the raw data are in (confirmation bias).
So, the algorithm should be ready to go. There is no obvious algorithmic reason for the delay ...
TSE
1m
TSE @TSEofPB
Staring intently at @guardian_clark twitter feed for that ICM poll. It is days like this I wish I wasn't interested in politics or betting.
https://twitter.com/DamCou/status/742365193448095744
*Probably more like 3.11
10 more sleeps until 23 June...
As another said FPT, I hope the BPC do set some standards - we're all over the place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_France