If things get really sticky for the Remain campaign during the final week Cameron should publish thousands of manifestos titled An Invitation To Join The Government of Europe. He could get a top class graphic designer to put a photo of a destitute Greek pensioner on the front.
If things get really sticky for the Remain campaign during the final week Cameron should publish thousands of manifestos titled An Invitation To Join The Government of Europe. He could get a top class graphic designer to put a photo of a destitute Greek pensioner on the front.
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
It's not enough to LEAVE, LEAVE wants the EU to fall apart as well.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
It's not enough to LEAVE, LEAVE wants the EU to fall apart as well.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
They only joined because we were going to so they couldn't afford not to. Similarly they stayed out of Schenegan rather than risk the common travel area.
Like it or not they are an economic dependency of the UK if not a political one..
Its not unthinkable.
However tbe EU is an illegal crime syndicate with no right even to exist so us leaving causing its collapse would be a bonus to many brexiter
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
The Irish are in the Eurozone and benefit too much from EU largesse, possible the Czechs, Hungarians and Poles could leave too though
The Dutch were the most likely after Sweden and Denmark because of their electoral cycle in our analysis. If we do leave and make a decent go of it, there will be a lot of pressure on the mainstream parties to offer an in/out referendum there because the PVV are definitely going to have one.
Poland and Hungary are even bigger beneficiaries of EU largess than the Irish, if they vote to leave then I think the EU will be in even bigger trouble than we currently think is possible.
This is how it goes down after Brexit IMO:
UK Sweden Denmark
Ireland Finland Netherlands France? (election in Spring 2017, Les Republicans may be backed into a corner by MLP into having a referendum)
Wasn't planning on posting much whilst away in that most fabulous of places, an Island off the coast of France which is not in the EU, but today's triumphalism my Remainians about the voting registration extension takes me back to the day it was announced that the saviour of the Labour Party Russell Brand would be backing Miliband. That endorsement was going to get Miliband over the line, right?
All together now: what's the problem with appealing to non-voters?
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
It's not enough to LEAVE, LEAVE wants the EU to fall apart as well.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
I think that's a misrepresentation. I'd be very happy to see the Eurozone pursue the necessary steps towards ever closer union. They're going to be miserable if they don't.
Other countries (obviously outside the EZ) would do better just treating the EU as a trading bloc. It's all about pragmatism.
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
It's not enough to LEAVE, LEAVE wants the EU to fall apart as well.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
Not quite, well not as far as I am concerned.
I take the view that we left the EU, or it left us, back in 1999,
At the moment we are trying to have one leg in the door and one out. We aren't alone in that.
The existing three tier arrangement of EZ,EU,EFTA needs rationalising back to two.
Let the people who want to press ahead with building a single country get on with it, unimpeded by our reluctance.
Let's be good friends and neighbours with them, trade freely, help with safety but we don't need to move in and marry them. We don't need to tell them how to run their house, and they should show us the same courtesy.
The Ireland thing is about economic and geographic entanglement, not empire.
Also, for @Casino_Royale, as my pen hovered over the ballot paper, the last vestiges of doubt about a leave vote were cast out the moment Dave called us "little Englanders". The sneering attitude of the remain side has driven me away from them more than I thought it would.
Mr. 124, must confess to being a shade surprised. It is interesting to see just how the traditional fault lines don't really apply to this referendum.
Mr. Royale, more importantly, the octo-lemur have forecast a 52/48 Leave victory. However, they might be taking the piss (it can be rather hard to tell).
Also, for @Casino_Royale, as my pen hovered over the ballot paper, the last vestiges of doubt about a leave vote were cast out the moment Dave called us "little Englanders". The sneering attitude of the remain side has driven me away from them more than I thought it would.
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
Denmark is outside the Euro and overwhelmingly voted against it in a referendum on the subject, if the EU sees Brexit as giving the green light to full integration it will lose more members outside the Eurozone
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
Because they aren't in the EMU and they would have lost their largest non-EMU partner. Especially as the only other nation with a permanent EMU opt-out, it leaves them looking extremely lonely without us fighting in the same corner.
Wasn't planning on posting much whilst away in that most fabulous of places, an Island off the coast of France which is not in the EU, but today's triumphalism my Remainians about the voting registration extension takes me back to the day it was announced that the saviour of the Labour Party Russell Brand would be backing Miliband. That endorsement was going to get Miliband over the line, right?
All together now: what's the problem with appealing to non-voters?
Except extending voting registration potentially gets thousands more Remain voters to the polls, Russell Brand endorsing Miliband may even have lost him votes it certainly did not win him any
I have crossed the Leave box on my postal vote, signed it and sealed the envelope. I will post it tomorrow morning on the walk up to the station. I am officially a Leave voter!
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
The Irish are in the Eurozone and benefit too much from EU largesse, possible the Czechs, Hungarians and Poles could leave too though
The Dutch were the most likely after Sweden and Denmark because of their electoral cycle in our analysis. If we do leave and make a decent go of it, there will be a lot of pressure on the mainstream parties to offer an in/out referendum there because the PVV are definitely going to have one.
Poland and Hungary are even bigger beneficiaries of EU largess than the Irish, if they vote to leave then I think the EU will be in even bigger trouble than we currently think is possible.
This is how it goes down after Brexit IMO:
UK Sweden Denmark
Ireland Finland Netherlands France? (election in Spring 2017, Les Republicans may be backed into a corner by MLP into having a referendum)
Poland and Hungary are both outside the Euro and have nationalist governments, if a Eurozone member like Ireland, Finland, the Netherlands or France left, especially the latter two, the entire Union would collapse and the Euro with it
Also, for @Casino_Royale, as my pen hovered over the ballot paper, the last vestiges of doubt about a leave vote were cast out the moment Dave called us "little Englanders". The sneering attitude of the remain side has driven me away from them more than I thought it would.
Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:
“There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”
Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
It's not enough to LEAVE, LEAVE wants the EU to fall apart as well.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
Not quite, well not as far as I am concerned.
I take the view that we left the EU, or it left us, back in 1999,
At the moment we are trying to have one leg in the door and one out. We aren't alone in that.
The existing three tier arrangement of EZ,EU,EFTA needs rationalising back to two.
Let the people who want to press ahead with building a single country get on with it, unimpeded by our reluctance.
Let's be good friends and neighbours with them, trade freely, help with safety but we don't need to move in and marry them. We don't need to tell them how to run their house, and they should show us the same courtesy.
The Ireland thing is about economic and geographic entanglement, not empire.
You did write that the ideal outcome was for a wave of countries in Northern Europe to leave the EU, including the partial dismantling of the euro area, presumably for them to enter the UK's sphere of Atlantic/North Sea economic influence.
So basically what they already have in Europe, except with no say in the economic direction of this trading bloc, which would be dominated by the UK.
Gawd, the Europhobes on here are becoming a self-help group like Alcoholics Anonymous without even the redeeming feature of offering us a lively backstory.
Wasn't planning on posting much whilst away in that most fabulous of places, an Island off the coast of France which is not in the EU, but today's triumphalism my Remainians about the voting registration extension takes me back to the day it was announced that the saviour of the Labour Party Russell Brand would be backing Miliband. That endorsement was going to get Miliband over the line, right?
All together now: what's the problem with appealing to non-voters?
Except extending voting registration potentially gets thousands more Remain voters to the polls, Russell Brand endorsing Miliband may even have lost him votes it certainly did not win him any
Nah, it potentially gets thousands more eligible electors on the register.
If people have not registered by now, they're very unlikely to remember/bother to vote on the 23rd.
Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes On Friday, apparently Stronger In coalition has agreed that it will be Labour's turn to "dominate" the media. *Ed Miliband* is the star turn
Gawd, the Europhobes on here are becoming a self-help group like Alcoholics Anonymous without even the redeeming feature of offering us a lively backstory.
Nothing more enjoyable than seeing a rattled undecided Eurofanatic.
Wasn't planning on posting much whilst away in that most fabulous of places, an Island off the coast of France which is not in the EU, but today's triumphalism my Remainians about the voting registration extension takes me back to the day it was announced that the saviour of the Labour Party Russell Brand would be backing Miliband. That endorsement was going to get Miliband over the line, right?
All together now: what's the problem with appealing to non-voters?
Except extending voting registration potentially gets thousands more Remain voters to the polls, Russell Brand endorsing Miliband may even have lost him votes it certainly did not win him any
Nah, it potentially gets thousands more eligible electors on the register.
If people have not registered by now, they're very unlikely to remember/bother to vote on the 23rd.
If they are motivated enough to register to vote there is more than a chance they will then actually go to the polling station, once registered they get their poll card too reminding them when polling day is and where to vote
@MP_SE If all the site's Leavers are going to tell us one by one that they've found a pen and worked out how to use it, it's going to make for very dull reading in the coming fortnight.
Gawd, the Europhobes on here are becoming a self-help group like Alcoholics Anonymous without even the redeeming feature of offering us a lively backstory.
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
That europhile dictionary in full:
Patriotism: leading Europe by giving up more powers to the EU and not influencing it Jingoism: leading Europe by setting an example outside the EU and actually influencing it
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
That europhile dictionary in full:
Patriotism: leading Europe by giving up more powers to the EU and not influencing it Jingoism: leading Europe by setting an example outside the EU and actually influencing it
This is an example of the bad-faith slanging and refusal to engage with opposing arguments that is poisoning PB comments and repelling those who disagree with the ever-narrowing consensus.
Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes On Friday, apparently Stronger In coalition has agreed that it will be Labour's turn to "dominate" the media. *Ed Miliband* is the star turn
I can't think of anything that might go wrong.
Another piece of PR brilliance: isn't friday the opening day of the European football competition?
Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes On Friday, apparently Stronger In coalition has agreed that it will be Labour's turn to "dominate" the media. *Ed Miliband* is the star turn
I can't think of anything that might go wrong.
Another piece of PR brilliance: isn't friday the opening day of the European football competition?
@MP_SE If all the site's Leavers are going to tell us one by one that they've found a pen and worked out how to use it, it's going to make for very dull reading in the coming fortnight.
At least Leavers HAVE a pen - Remainers are less sophisticated and use biros or felt-tips. Quink Rules OK!
I have crossed the Leave box on my postal vote, signed it and sealed the envelope. I will post it tomorrow morning on the walk up to the station. I am officially a Leave voter!
I have just done the same. The other 3 in the household are also for LEAVE. It is time to let those who want a single european state go and do that. I hope it is a Safe European Home for them and not a Clash of cultures..
@MP_SE If all the site's Leavers are going to tell us one by one that they've found a pen and worked out how to use it, it's going to make for very dull reading in the coming fortnight.
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
That europhile dictionary in full:
Patriotism: leading Europe by giving up more powers to the EU and not influencing it Jingoism: leading Europe by setting an example outside the EU and actually influencing it
This is an example of the bad-faith slanging and refusal to engage with opposing arguments that is poisoning PB comments and repelling those who disagree with the ever-narrowing consensus.
A majority of Scots voted to stay in the UK and new polls show they would still do so even after Brexit but it could give a few pause south of the border
Why exactly would Denmark leave Europe after Brexit?
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
That europhile dictionary in full:
Patriotism: leading Europe by giving up more powers to the EU and not influencing it Jingoism: leading Europe by setting an example outside the EU and actually influencing it
Hmm. There are many ways to play the dictionary game:
Cutting red tape: slashing rights for mothers-to-be and holiday pay. Let's call it the Mike Ashley school of management.
How far is the extension of registration going to be?
Midnight tomorrow
Server crash at 11pm.
I've no idea what their infrastructure involves, but many IT operations allow a scaling up at crisis points by using cloud infrastructure (e.g. Amazon web services).
It is quite amusing to note how many of Leavers on here proudly announcing they have just used their postal votes to vote Leave are the same posters who in the past frequently whinge about postal voting and post that its use should be severely curtailed .
Have just voted Leave by post! Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.
Excellent news, Sir.
Did anything sway your vote during recent weeks?
Europe has never been a very salient issue for me one way or the other.However, the sheer contempt that Cameron and Osborne have shown for the British people in this campaign by treating us as fools has persuaded me that this style of politics must not prevail. It is so reminiscent of how they conducted the 2015 election campaign.
I have some sympathy with this and I'm a Remainer!
It is quite amusing to note how many of Leavers on here proudly announcing they have just used their postal votes to vote Leave are the same posters who in the past frequently whinge about postal voting and post that its use should be severely curtailed .
It is quite amusing to note how many of Leavers on here proudly announcing they have just used their postal votes to vote Leave are the same posters who in the past frequently whinge about postal voting and post that its use should be severely curtailed .
@FrancisUrquhart From a few threads ago about what the barmaid in my local knew about Eddie Izzard. The response was "I've heard of the name but don't know anything about him"
Which tbf was pretty similar to my response when I was asked if I knew who Mary Berry was.
Osborne has one objective in this interview - to make people think leaving the EU is risky.
People on here may follow the minutiae of the debate - that is all irrelevant to 95% of viewers.
Yebbut it's not working. Andrew is making him look a laughing stock.
Honestly, I'm *trying* to be scared, just to put myself in the shoes of a floating voter, but I'm just laughing at him.
Nobody on this site - not you, not me, not anyone else, is a good judge of whether or not he is succeeding - because everyone on here is a million times more interested in politics than the average voter.
Comments
That'll win over the undecided.
Essentially, some in LEAVE seem to want a new European Union arranged with Britain alone in the driving seat, and for the rest of the actually existing Europe to fall apart.
I'm guessing that in particular, the days of Ireland following the UK belong in Empire nostalgia.
Sir Danny Alexander overheard suggesting Leave will win 51:49 on his way out of the QE2 conference centre yesterday.
Like it or not they are an economic dependency of the UK if not a political one..
Its not unthinkable.
However tbe EU is an illegal crime syndicate with no right even to exist so us leaving causing its collapse would be a bonus to many brexiter
Poland and Hungary are even bigger beneficiaries of EU largess than the Irish, if they vote to leave then I think the EU will be in even bigger trouble than we currently think is possible.
This is how it goes down after Brexit IMO:
UK
Sweden Denmark
Ireland
Finland
Netherlands
France? (election in Spring 2017, Les Republicans may be backed into a corner by MLP into having a referendum)
All together now: what's the problem with appealing to non-voters?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3631801/Road-closed-police-incident-central-London.html
Other countries (obviously outside the EZ) would do better just treating the EU as a trading bloc. It's all about pragmatism.
I fear this is just the LEAVE campaign engaging in a bit of jingoism. We don't want to be part of Europe, we want Europe to follow us.
I take the view that we left the EU, or it left us, back in 1999,
At the moment we are trying to have one leg in the door and one out. We aren't alone in that.
The existing three tier arrangement of EZ,EU,EFTA needs rationalising back to two.
Let the people who want to press ahead with building a single country get on with it, unimpeded by our reluctance.
Let's be good friends and neighbours with them, trade freely, help with safety but we don't need to move in and marry them. We don't need to tell them how to run their house, and they should show us the same courtesy.
The Ireland thing is about economic and geographic entanglement, not empire.
Mr. 124, must confess to being a shade surprised. It is interesting to see just how the traditional fault lines don't really apply to this referendum.
Mr. Royale, more importantly, the octo-lemur have forecast a 52/48 Leave victory. However, they might be taking the piss (it can be rather hard to tell).
So basically what they already have in Europe, except with no say in the economic direction of this trading bloc, which would be dominated by the UK.
But Empire is over, there's no getting it back.
If people have not registered by now, they're very unlikely to remember/bother to vote on the 23rd.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/08/david-cameron-raises-risk-scotland-leaving-uk-after-brexit#comment-75932600
Patriotism: leading Europe by giving up more powers to the EU and not influencing it
Jingoism: leading Europe by setting an example outside the EU and actually influencing it
Quink Rules OK!
Unfortunately the EU isn't.
Cameron from November
It's ok, I get it.
Cutting red tape: slashing rights for mothers-to-be and holiday pay. Let's call it the Mike Ashley school of management.
Not a Prime Ministerial performance so far.
I've no idea what their infrastructure involves, but many IT operations allow a scaling up at crisis points by using cloud infrastructure (e.g. Amazon web services).
Dick.
Totally bombs.
Not even close.
People on here may follow the minutiae of the debate - that is all irrelevant to 95% of viewers.
Bullseye.
The response was "I've heard of the name but don't know anything about him"
Which tbf was pretty similar to my response when I was asked if I knew who Mary Berry was.
Honestly, I'm *trying* to be scared, just to put myself in the shoes of a floating voter, but I'm just laughing at him.
Ozzy on ropes.