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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Ah, there we have it.
    You might remember my other prediction from February. If Leave were spending the last few weeks of the referendum talking exclusively about immigration/Muslims then it was purely a core vote strategy by Leave in anticipation of a shellacking.
    Oh you're a Muslim aren't you, TSE?

    *innocent face*
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425
    RobD said:

    perdix said:

    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    Do I rember correctly that HMQ is referred to in the coronation ceremony as "Queen of France"?

    You remember incorrectly, unless you count "her other realms and territories, Queen" as including France.
    We gave up our claim to France in 1802.

    Cowardly Tories

    Dave = Lord Addington
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    What does it mean to REMAIN or LEAVE?

    REMAIN is young, sexy, cosmopolitan

    LEAVE is sweaty, shouty, swivel-eyed
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,303

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    The quietness of Remainers has more to do with the fact that quite a few of them have evidently decided that they have better things to do with their time than hang around somewhere where they routinely get called quislings and traitors by swivel-eyed Leavers.

    I'm loving it. It fortifies my soul when I go out campaigning. Which I'm going to do tonight, again.

    The interesting thing is how few PB leavers seem to be out campaigning for Leave.
    So let me get this right.

    First there was the 9m pound brochure
    Most of the world's great and the good telling us the world would end
    World War 3 "could" happen we are told
    Economic Armageddon "could" happen we are told
    Refugee camps in Kent "could" happen we are told
    Leave have all the unsavory types like Farage
    Remain have all the saints like the ABoC and Obama
    Three months of campaigning with the full force of the civil service
    AND the Leavers can't be bothered to go out and canvass apparently.

    That must explain why Remain is 20% ahead in the polls.
    Christ, you must come to the UK, living in The Philippines really is distorting your perception of reality.
    If I come back and find Britain is not the PB Tory utopia I imagined I will be very disappointed. :(
    It won't be PB Tory utopia until George Osborne becomes PM.
    Osborne has a -41 rating amongst tory members which is equivalent to something smelly and unpleasant on the bottom of a shoe.
    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/06/cameron-slumps-boris-slides-and-davidson-soars-in-our-cabinet-league-table.html
    And he's had worse ratings and recovered before.

    PS Are those ConHome polls conducted by Andrew Cooper's ComRes?
    Come on TSE, even you must know Osborne's chances of becoming PM are over.

    He'd lose a popularity contest against Nicolae Ceaușescu
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,303

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Ah, there we have it.
    You might remember my other prediction from February. If Leave were spending the last few weeks of the referendum talking exclusively about immigration/Muslims then it was purely a core vote strategy by Leave in anticipation of a shellacking.
    We have a lot of other evidence that seems to suggest otherwise.

    And Gove on Friday night talked about the positive case for Leave, "Project Hope", so.. no.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Freggles said:

    What does it mean to REMAIN or LEAVE?

    REMAIN is young, sexy, cosmopolitan

    LEAVE is sweaty, shouty, swivel-eyed

    REMAIN is naïve, easily lead, timid.

    LEAVE is experienced, a leader and bold.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    That is a popularly held, but possibly mistaken, view:

    The title of duke of Normandy was renounced by Henry III in 1259, and removed from his seal and official styles in 1260. It was never again used in the official styles of his successors, except in a few homages by Norman vassals to Edward III in 1356, and by Henry V, occasionally, in documents concerning occupied Normandy between 1417 and 1419. Furthermore, in both instances the use of the title was indistinguishable from the English king's claim to the throne of France, and hence was unrelated to the title held until 1259.
    In over 750 years, it was used once by an English sovereign to describe himself in his relation to the Channel islands.

    There is no trace of its use for the past 390 years.

    Loyal subjects in the Islands, just as those in Lancashire, may well toast their Queen as "Duke". But that does not make her one, any more than the people of Vanuatu who worship the duke of Edinburgh as a god make him one.


    http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,928
    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,950
    Freggles said:

    What does it mean to REMAIN or LEAVE?

    REMAIN is young, sexy, cosmopolitan

    LEAVE is sweaty, shouty, swivel-eyed

    Remain is magic, Leave is tragic.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081

    Freggles said:

    What does it mean to REMAIN or LEAVE?

    REMAIN is young, sexy, cosmopolitan

    LEAVE is sweaty, shouty, swivel-eyed

    Remain is tragic, Leave is magic.
    :)

  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,303
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    We can conclude from the last minute extension of the voting registration deadline, as well as other moves this week from Remain and the PM, that the Remain camp are concerned this vote is going to be extremely close.

    Bet accordingly.

    All the signs tell me that REMAIN now believe they are going to lose.
    My gut tells me they might.

    What if those worried about economic fallout but also very concerned by ongoing high migration just can't bring themselves to turnout and actively cast that vote for Remain to endorse it, whilst the Leavers are more fired up than Mount Vesuvius ?

    My head tells me the turnout to some extent will be self-correcting and that the UK (incl. NI and Gibraltar) will conspire to deliver a result of 51% or 52% to Remain.

    But I could be wrong and there could be something more visceral going on here.

    Dunno.
    Put a gun to most people's heads and they couldn't name one ECJ judgement that they believe has infringed our sovereignty.

    But they sure as hell would be able to tell you the immigration numbers.
    Votes for prisoners.

    They'd also cite Human Rights for terrorists (even though that's far more complicated as it's a function of ECHR v. Charter of Fundamental Rights v. ECJ v. UK's own HRA)
    QED
    Not really. People are aware that the EU is infringing on our justice and home affairs policy, and don't like it.

    Whether they don't like it enough for it to influence their vote is another matter of course.
    People are being told that the EU is infringing on our justice, and home affairs policy. But I bet if we went to that bloke's shop and asked his customers to give examples, they wouldn't be able to.

    The EU is just a convenient scapegoat for the perceived loss of control of our lives in this ever more complex world. If we leave it, another will emerge.
    I don't think that's true in the slightest. I don't even think you in your heart of hearts believe it either.

    We have just reached the state now where all you're doing is rationalising your decision to vote Remain.
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    nunu said:

    Just looking over the archives for April 2015 before the GE, and Ave_It was predicting another 1992- Tories 38% and Labour28% I wonder how right even he thought he was?
    I wonder what he is predicting for the ref?

    Ave_It came out for LEAVE a few nights ago! :open_mouth:

    Most important intervention of the campaign, IMO...
    Ave It is awesome.
    The fact that he has bought me the odd beer at a PB drinks do is entirely unconnected.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,950

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Ah, there we have it.
    You might remember my other prediction from February. If Leave were spending the last few weeks of the referendum talking exclusively about immigration/Muslims then it was purely a core vote strategy by Leave in anticipation of a shellacking.
    We have a lot of other evidence that seems to suggest otherwise.

    And Gove on Friday night talked about the positive case for Leave, "Project Hope", so.. no.
    If immigration really was the most important issue in the country, UKIP would have more than one MP.

    Have you ever noticed UKIP have never won a Westminster seat without a defector-incumbent.

    And on that note, I'm going to campaign for the Remain. West Yorkshire, brace yourselves.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Top Gear -

    having watched the second episode, it's worse than the first one. The 'star in a rallycross car' segment is MUCH too long, among other problems.

    Sabine wasn't involved this week. Instead we had 3 musicians, and (presumably because they couldn't find a conjuror and a steel band) Eddie Jordan, who was woefully out of his depth and looked like a refugee from a Punch and Judy show.

    Get Sabine back and have a regular cast of no more than 3.

    As always, the fundamental problem was, is, and probably will remain, Chris Evans. He is out of his depth, does not have the skill or gravitas to carry the show on his back. He is much more suited to Top 40 radio than a TV role.

    Finally, I have to say it: Top Gear US is now better than Top Gear UK. Why? Because it's based on 3 guys cocking about and teasing each other. Maybe that's an idea the BBC could pursue.

    We are promised major changes in episode 3 next week. One can only hope. The show is being panned and ratings are down world wide.

    Hurry up Amazon - we are more than ready!
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    There are 15 X 24 - 4 minute periods in a day = 360
    That means there are 131,400 such periods in a year.

    Immigration is 335000 (minimum) - so 1 house for nearly every three immigrants seems reasonable.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,928
    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.

    So yes, I'll go with the ad hominem. Happy to.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,950

    GIN1138 said:

    nunu said:

    Just looking over the archives for April 2015 before the GE, and Ave_It was predicting another 1992- Tories 38% and Labour28% I wonder how right even he thought he was?
    I wonder what he is predicting for the ref?

    Ave_It came out for LEAVE a few nights ago! :open_mouth:

    Most important intervention of the campaign, IMO...
    Ave It is awesome.
    The fact that he has bought me the odd beer at a PB drinks do is entirely unconnected.
    He is, and he bought me several drinks too.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,928
    weejonnie said:

    There are 15 X 24 - 4 minute periods in a day = 360
    That means there are 131,400 such periods in a year.

    Immigration is 335000 (minimum) - so 1 house for nearly every three immigrants seems reasonable.

    So easily covered by the promise from each government for the past 20 years (at least) to build their famous 200,000 new homes a year.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,070
    edited June 2016
    Tim_B said:


    Finally, I have to say it: Top Gear US is now better than Top Gear UK. Why? Because it's based on 3 guys cocking about and teasing each other. Maybe that's an idea the BBC could pursue.

    Wooooo steady on now...its crap, but its not THAT crap...
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Ah, there we have it.
    You might remember my other prediction from February. If Leave were spending the last few weeks of the referendum talking exclusively about immigration/Muslims then it was purely a core vote strategy by Leave in anticipation of a shellacking.
    Actually it is hitting Leave's strongest point at the most effective time.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    Linked to earlier, but worth repeating the intro:

    As we barrel towards June 23rd and a vote which is increasingly less about the UK’s future in the EU and more about wanting to be able to gloat at those fuckers on Facebook – formerly your friends and family – who have lost.....

    https://excelpope.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/246/
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    That is a popularly held, but possibly mistaken, view:

    The title of duke of Normandy was renounced by Henry III in 1259, and removed from his seal and official styles in 1260. It was never again used in the official styles of his successors, except in a few homages by Norman vassals to Edward III in 1356, and by Henry V, occasionally, in documents concerning occupied Normandy between 1417 and 1419. Furthermore, in both instances the use of the title was indistinguishable from the English king's claim to the throne of France, and hence was unrelated to the title held until 1259.
    In over 750 years, it was used once by an English sovereign to describe himself in his relation to the Channel islands.

    There is no trace of its use for the past 390 years.

    Loyal subjects in the Islands, just as those in Lancashire, may well toast their Queen as "Duke". But that does not make her one, any more than the people of Vanuatu who worship the duke of Edinburgh as a god make him one.


    http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy
    Retreats less boldly to pedant's corner (!)

    Is she still Lord of Man though?

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306

    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    That is a popularly held, but possibly mistaken, view:

    The title of duke of Normandy was renounced by Henry III in 1259, and removed from his seal and official styles in 1260. It was never again used in the official styles of his successors, except in a few homages by Norman vassals to Edward III in 1356, and by Henry V, occasionally, in documents concerning occupied Normandy between 1417 and 1419. Furthermore, in both instances the use of the title was indistinguishable from the English king's claim to the throne of France, and hence was unrelated to the title held until 1259.
    In over 750 years, it was used once by an English sovereign to describe himself in his relation to the Channel islands.

    There is no trace of its use for the past 390 years.

    Loyal subjects in the Islands, just as those in Lancashire, may well toast their Queen as "Duke". But that does not make her one, any more than the people of Vanuatu who worship the duke of Edinburgh as a god make him one.


    http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy
    The British historian Ben Pimlott noted that while Queen Elizabeth II was on a visit to mainland Normandy in May 1967, French locals began to doff their hats and shout "Vive la Duchesse!", to which the Queen supposedly replied "Well, I am The Duke of Normandy!".[


    I think she gave herself the dukedom at that point :D
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,070
    edited June 2016
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I would rather watch Top gear...

    @bbcquestiontime: Here's this week's #bbcqt panel in full: Chris Grayling @hilarybennmp @Nigel_Farage @eddieizzard @allisonpearson https://t.co/sLyhV9njqH
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    The quietness of Remainers has more to do with the fact that quite a few of them have evidently decided that they have better things to do with their time than hang around somewhere where they routinely get called quislings and traitors by swivel-eyed Leavers.

    I'm loving it. It fortifies my soul when I go out campaigning. Which I'm going to do tonight, again.

    The interesting thing is how few PB leavers seem to be out campaigning for Leave.
    So let me get this right.

    First there was the 9m pound brochure
    Most of the world's great and the good telling us the world would end
    World War 3 "could" happen we are told
    Economic Armageddon "could" happen we are told
    Refugee camps in Kent "could" happen we are told
    Leave have all the unsavory types like Farage
    Remain have all the saints like the ABoC and Obama
    Three months of campaigning with the full force of the civil service
    AND the Leavers can't be bothered to go out and canvass apparently.

    That must explain why Remain is 20% ahead in the polls.
    Christ, you must come to the UK, living in The Philippines really is distorting your perception of reality.
    If I come back and find Britain is not the PB Tory utopia I imagined I will be very disappointed. :(
    It won't be PB Tory utopia until George Osborne becomes PM.

    But come to Yorkshire, that is pure utopia.
    GICIPM
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Unfairly cropped!
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:


    Finally, I have to say it: Top Gear US is now better than Top Gear UK. Why? Because it's based on 3 guys cocking about and teasing each other. Maybe that's an idea the BBC could pursue.

    Wooooo steady on now...its crap, but its not THAT crap...
    Afraid so - watched a couple of episodes of the new series last night. The are improving even as the new Top Gear heads downhill rapidly.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,191

    GIN1138 said:

    nunu said:

    Just looking over the archives for April 2015 before the GE, and Ave_It was predicting another 1992- Tories 38% and Labour28% I wonder how right even he thought he was?
    I wonder what he is predicting for the ref?

    Ave_It came out for LEAVE a few nights ago! :open_mouth:

    Most important intervention of the campaign, IMO...
    Ave It is awesome.
    The fact that he has bought me the odd beer at a PB drinks do is entirely unconnected.
    It sounded like he is being pursued by HMRC while Cameron and Osborne shower his hard earned money on layabouts and losers (paraphrasing)

    So he's going to pull the plug on them via the referendum.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081
    Scott_P said:

    I would rather watch Top gear...

    @bbcquestiontime: Here's this week's #bbcqt panel in full: Chris Grayling @hilarybennmp @Nigel_Farage @eddieizzard @allisonpearson https://t.co/sLyhV9njqH

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/738043854247604224
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Scott_P said:

    I would rather watch Top gear...

    @bbcquestiontime: Here's this week's #bbcqt panel in full: Chris Grayling @hilarybennmp @Nigel_Farage @eddieizzard @allisonpearson https://t.co/sLyhV9njqH

    UK or US (or God Help Us, Australia or Germany)?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    That is a popularly held, but possibly mistaken, view:

    The title of duke of Normandy was renounced by Henry III in 1259, and removed from his seal and official styles in 1260. It was never again used in the official styles of his successors, except in a few homages by Norman vassals to Edward III in 1356, and by Henry V, occasionally, in documents concerning occupied Normandy between 1417 and 1419. Furthermore, in both instances the use of the title was indistinguishable from the English king's claim to the throne of France, and hence was unrelated to the title held until 1259.
    In over 750 years, it was used once by an English sovereign to describe himself in his relation to the Channel islands.

    There is no trace of its use for the past 390 years.

    Loyal subjects in the Islands, just as those in Lancashire, may well toast their Queen as "Duke". But that does not make her one, any more than the people of Vanuatu who worship the duke of Edinburgh as a god make him one.


    http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy
    Retreats less boldly to pedant's corner (!)

    I shouldn't worry - you're in the very best company:

    ...... HM visiting France, Normandy specifically, in a private capacity.

    "peasants in the villages knew they were coming. Some doffed their caps and
    shouted "Vive la Duchesse!" (Well, I am Duke of Normandy,' said the Queen)"


    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.talk.royalty/GKy9i2i2yOM/6MMhfg0o1hAJ
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,406
    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    But it hasn't. That is a myth.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,191
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @georgeeaton: New Eurostat data shows UK attracts more highly-skilled migrants than any other EU country.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Gibraltar also has a different constitutional relationship with the UK, than Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

    Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory (along with your Falklands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda et al.)

    Man, Guernsey and Jersey are Crown Dependencies.

    Do people in the IoM and Channel Isles get a vote in the referendum then?
    Channel Islands no - because they are not in the EU (apart from the Customs Union) and are not part of the UK.

    If it was an organisation chart, the Channel Islands would report directly to the Queen....

    Emerges boldly from pedant's corner.

    The Queen? You mean the Duke of Normandy surely in their case? (Oddly she is the Duke I think and not the Duchess - go figure).
    That is a popularly held, but possibly mistaken, view:

    The title of duke of Normandy was renounced by Henry III in 1259, and removed from his seal and official styles in 1260. It was never again used in the official styles of his successors, except in a few homages by Norman vassals to Edward III in 1356, and by Henry V, occasionally, in documents concerning occupied Normandy between 1417 and 1419. Furthermore, in both instances the use of the title was indistinguishable from the English king's claim to the throne of France, and hence was unrelated to the title held until 1259.
    In over 750 years, it was used once by an English sovereign to describe himself in his relation to the Channel islands.

    There is no trace of its use for the past 390 years.

    Loyal subjects in the Islands, just as those in Lancashire, may well toast their Queen as "Duke". But that does not make her one, any more than the people of Vanuatu who worship the duke of Edinburgh as a god make him one.


    http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy
    Retreats less boldly to pedant's corner (!)

    I shouldn't worry - you're in the very best company:

    ...... HM visiting France, Normandy specifically, in a private capacity.

    "peasants in the villages knew they were coming. Some doffed their caps and
    shouted "Vive la Duchesse!" (Well, I am Duke of Normandy,' said the Queen)"


    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.talk.royalty/GKy9i2i2yOM/6MMhfg0o1hAJ
    Remerges from pedant's corner.

    Well if she says she is that's good enough for me!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    GIN1138 said:

    PM surrounded by friends....

    twitter.com/eyespymp/status/740563695663734786

    #Toxic
    Is that an IPA?
  • Options
    VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412
    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: New Eurostat data shows UK attracts more highly-skilled migrants than any other EU country.

    Yes, among the chaff are some diamonds.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,717
    YouGov London poll tables are available:

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bcpps63ha9/EveningStandard_EUReferendum_160606_W.pdf

    Headline figures (excl DK/WNV) 57(.4)% Remain, 42(.6)% Leave
    but of these: 10/10 Certain to Vote 72% Remain, 79% Leave
    None of this differential in turnout has been adjusted for.

    Confine the poll to those who declare themselves 10/10 certain to vote (=67% of total, similar to GE turnout levels) and you get a split of 55% Remain 45% Leave.
    Not exactly an overwhelming lead for Remain in what should be its best region in England.

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,406
    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    Yes, among the chaff are some diamonds.

    More diamonds than any other country. Quick, shut the door...
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    There are 15 X 24 - 4 minute periods in a day = 360
    That means there are 131,400 such periods in a year.

    Immigration is 335000 (minimum) - so 1 house for nearly every three immigrants seems reasonable.

    So easily covered by the promise from each government for the past 20 years (at least) to build their famous 200,000 new homes a year.
    But that was BEFORE migration shot off - wasn't it!?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    Yes, among the chaff are some diamonds.

    More diamonds than any other country. Quick, shut the door...
    It's be interesting to know what fraction they make up of the total.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306

    RobD said:

    PM surrounded by friends....

    twitter.com/eyespymp/status/740563695663734786

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
    Smoking is a great way of socialising with other smokers ;)
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
    Probably started only about a week ago (!). Probably up to 60 a day by now.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,928
    edited June 2016

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
    Probably started only about a week ago (!). Probably up to 60 a day by now.
    I think he's mentioned smoking at PMQs a couple of times, so it's definitely a long term thing.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,070
    Scott_P said:

    I would rather watch Top gear...

    @bbcquestiontime: Here's this week's #bbcqt panel in full: Chris Grayling @hilarybennmp @Nigel_Farage @eddieizzard @allisonpearson https://t.co/sLyhV9njqH

    Oh god, that is a terrible line-up....I would rather watch Shouty McShouty Face on loop for the next 24hrs than be forced to watch that.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked. </

    Farage has complained of Dave scrounging his fags before.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
    Probably started only about a week ago (!). Probably up to 60 a day by now.
    I think he's mentioned smoking at PMQs a couple of times, so it's definitely a long term thing.
    Knew Cleggy did. Didn't Know Dave did tbh.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,928
    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    There are 15 X 24 - 4 minute periods in a day = 360
    That means there are 131,400 such periods in a year.

    Immigration is 335000 (minimum) - so 1 house for nearly every three immigrants seems reasonable.

    So easily covered by the promise from each government for the past 20 years (at least) to build their famous 200,000 new homes a year.
    But that was BEFORE migration shot off - wasn't it!?
    Not 100% sure it was. Every government for decades has promised to build more houses. They have failed (remember Avery LP's famous yellow boxes on housing starts, I could find the stats if I could be bothered).

    Certainly pre-dated the immigration explosion so it is a pre-existing problem.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,717
    Welsh YouGov poll tables also available:

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/gapliwnrt9/WelshBarometer_June2016_w.pdf

    Headline on referendum Remain 41%, Leave 41%. Now level pegging, compared to 2% Remain lead a month previously.

    No adjustment to headline figure for turnout, no question on likelihood to vote either. But the age split certainly suggests that Leave would be ahead if there were one:
    i.e.
    18-24 Remain 67%, Leave 15%.
    65+ Remain 33%, Leave 56%
  • Options
    VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Isn't Boris partly Turkish?

    Also, after Cameron's sick-making attacks on Khan a Cameron fanboy like yourself has no cause for complaint.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
    Well you know how crowded London is these days - imagine it with another Million people pushing to get on the Tube in 4 or 5 years time.

    Hell on earth - if we don't vote Leave.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited June 2016

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked. </

    Farage has complained of Dave scrounging his fags before.</p>
    A fag at Eton is different to a fag on the Commons terrace....
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked.
    Neither did I! But a quick google yielded this:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-still-smoke-pm-7023657
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked. </

    Farage has complained of Dave scrounging his fags before.</p>
    A fag at Eton is different to a fag on the Commons terrace....
    Lots of public schools used to have fagging - I was a fag for my first year at Durham.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Welsh YouGov poll tables also available:

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/gapliwnrt9/WelshBarometer_June2016_w.pdf

    Headline on referendum Remain 41%, Leave 41%. Now level pegging, compared to 2% Remain lead a month previously.

    No adjustment to headline figure for turnout, no question on likelihood to vote either. But the age split certainly suggests that Leave would be ahead if there were one:
    i.e.
    18-24 Remain 67%, Leave 15%.
    65+ Remain 33%, Leave 56%

    The age profile splits really are gobsmackingly large.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Unfairly cropped!
    I honestly didn't know Cameron smoked. </

    Farage has complained of Dave scrounging his fags before.</p>
    A fag at Eton is different to a fag on the Commons terrace....
    Lots of public schools used to have fagging - I was a fag for my first year at Durham.
    Me too, but not at Durham.
  • Options
    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    edited June 2016
    Tim_B said:

    Top Gear -

    having watched the second episode, it's worse than the first one. The 'star in a rallycross car' segment is MUCH too long, among other problems.

    Sabine wasn't involved this week. Instead we had 3 musicians, and (presumably because they couldn't find a conjuror and a steel band) Eddie Jordan, who was woefully out of his depth and looked like a refugee from a Punch and Judy show.

    Get Sabine back and have a regular cast of no more than 3.

    As always, the fundamental problem was, is, and probably will remain, Chris Evans. He is out of his depth, does not have the skill or gravitas to carry the show on his back. He is much more suited to Top 40 radio than a TV role.

    Finally, I have to say it: Top Gear US is now better than Top Gear UK. Why? Because it's based on 3 guys cocking about and teasing each other. Maybe that's an idea the BBC could pursue.

    We are promised major changes in episode 3 next week. One can only hope. The show is being panned and ratings are down world wide.

    Hurry up Amazon - we are more than ready!

    The fundamental problem is not Evans per se, it's the fact Clarkson, Hammond, May and Wilman reinvented the old car show format in a style of their choosing and it continued to evolve (note that even early "new" Top Gears look old hat and clunky when viewed now against the slick and polished output until last year). Evans et al needed to come in and reinvent it, and I expected they were going to, he is accomplished enough to do it and had the full force of the BBC (and its £200m pa at stake) to make sure it happened.

    Instead they're trying to carry on with the Clarkson et al format and style. That's why the first one was shit, and why viewers didn't tune in for ep 2.

    It's sunk, and probably too late now to "reinvent" it as they should have done. Top Gear can only come back from this if Clarkson et al come back. Which I still think will happen, eventually...
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    GIN1138 said:
    Beautiful desolate Hopperesque atmosphere.
  • Options
    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Does anyone know when the debate between Boris Johnson and the "ladies" is on and which channel?
  • Options
    VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
    Well, let's have a rational plan for population growth, what's needed in addition to natural growth for industries etc., how much Green Belt has to be ploughed under, how many schools, hospitals, etc. need to built and myriad other factors and get democratic assent fo this plan.

    Then I'll tell you.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Does anyone know when the debate between Boris Johnson and the "ladies" is on and which channel?

    ITV tomorrow night I think
  • Options
    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    edited June 2016

    Does anyone know when the debate between Boris Johnson and the "ladies" is on and which channel?

    ITV Thursday 8pm I believe.

    Boris has the stamina to manage 2 hours against the Euro ladies. Cameron managed 30 mins last night, in solus!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Osborne is on with Neil tonight, if I'm not mistaken.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.
  • Options
    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Heard Iain Dale earlier ask Alex Salmond about those Scandinavian countries that are holding evening classes for Muslim men on the way to behave towards western women. He just totally brushed off the question, as he was more interested in smearing Nigel Farage as a racist.

    The left have been playing the racist card for years because they know it just shuts down the debate.

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,406
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?

    Nope they have been taken over by incompetents. It seems like every election now we are getting issues from them. Add to that the anti-Tory diatribe a few days ago by someone from the EC and you get the impression they are really not in control.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    There is no housing shortage in the UK, there is just a surplus of people wishing to live in London.

    If we had a half sensible interest rate and we stopped the enormous housing benefit subsidy in London, it would go some of the way to remedying it.

    That said, a local family man (or woman) trying to raise a family is never going to be able to meet the rent that half a dozen transient workers will if they share a house, a room apiece.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,425

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?

    Nope they have been taken over by incompetents. It seems like every election now we are getting issues from them. Add to that the anti-Tory diatribe a few days ago by someone from the EC and you get the impression they are really not in control.
    And yet Cameron still lacks the spine to sack any of them.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,429
    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Yes, new system means voters under the age of 30 are only allowed to register in a 2 hour window from 10pm to midnight 16 days before the vote - it's a disgrace!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    maaarsh said:

    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Yes, new system means voters under the age of 30 are only allowed to register in a 2 hour window from 10pm to midnight 16 days before the vote - it's a disgrace!
    The deadline was 12 midnight, not 10pm when the website ceased to function.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?

    Nope they have been taken over by incompetents. It seems like every election now we are getting issues from them. Add to that the anti-Tory diatribe a few days ago by someone from the EC and you get the impression they are really not in control.
    While I do question her neutrality, those posts were from five/six years ago.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,406

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?

    Nope they have been taken over by incompetents. It seems like every election now we are getting issues from them. Add to that the anti-Tory diatribe a few days ago by someone from the EC and you get the impression they are really not in control.
    And yet Cameron still lacks the spine to sack any of them.
    I think the only one he might be able to sack is the lady at the top and I am not even sure if he has the power to do that. Is the EC part of the Civil Service or is it a quango?
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Bravo!
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    RobD said:

    Osborne is on with Neil tonight, if I'm not mistaken.

    730pm BBC1
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
    Well you know how crowded London is these days - imagine it with another Million people pushing to get on the Tube in 4 or 5 years time.

    Hell on earth - if we don't vote Leave.
    I imagine the London underground would be like this train in Japan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A9-oUoMug
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    maaarsh said:

    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Yes, new system means voters under the age of 30 are only allowed to register in a 2 hour window from 10pm to midnight 16 days before the vote - it's a disgrace!
    At the rate Cameron is going registration will be extended to June 23rd with a free trip to Ibiza for all under 25s who sign themselves up!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: So just to be clear, the Electoral Commission have also been taken over by the Euro Lizards?

    Nope they have been taken over by incompetents. It seems like every election now we are getting issues from them. Add to that the anti-Tory diatribe a few days ago by someone from the EC and you get the impression they are really not in control.
    And yet Cameron still lacks the spine to sack any of them.
    I think the only one he might be able to sack is the lady at the top and I am not even sure if he has the power to do that. Is the EC part of the Civil Service or is it a quango?
    Wikipedia says it is independent of government and answerable to Parliament. Not sure if that puts it outside the Civil Service.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Excellent news, Sir.

    Did anything sway your vote during recent weeks?
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Scott_P said:



    No side that expected to win comfortably would have had supporters discussing ways in which Parliament could ignore the result.


    (1) Talk of ignoring the result
    (2) Total saturation of Canary Wharf yesterday with adverts to vote Remain
    (3) Cameron pushing a Little England, Greater Britain line
    (4) Last minute press conference by PM
    (5) Pushing out voter registration deadline

    So if Remain win by 10-20 points, which nefarious skulduggery will have done it?
    I'm not falling prey to hubris but I don't think that's where we're heading.

    If you doubt my sincerity, check my entry into the pb.com competition where I predicted 58/42 to Remain.

    Both TSE and the originator of Vapid Bilge had Remain at over 60%
    Point of order, my prediction was Remain by around 12-15%, which is Remain on tops 57.5%
    That's your prediction now, it wasn't then.
    It was my hope and aspiration, I wasn't expecting the Farage lite duplicitous foghorn Boris and Gove are playing on Turkey.

    I thought they were better than that.
    Ah, there we have it.
    You might remember my other prediction from February. If Leave were spending the last few weeks of the referendum talking exclusively about immigration/Muslims then it was purely a core vote strategy by Leave in anticipation of a shellacking.
    We have a lot of other evidence that seems to suggest otherwise.

    And Gove on Friday night talked about the positive case for Leave, "Project Hope", so.. no.
    If immigration really was the most important issue in the country, UKIP would have more than one MP.

    Have you ever noticed UKIP have never won a Westminster seat without a defector-incumbent.

    And on that note, I'm going to campaign for the Remain. West Yorkshire, brace yourselves.
    Why don't you give us actual numbers when you finish, rather than your usual vague hint?
  • Options
    OK I am going to risk making an idiot of myself now.

    Based on:

    * Trend in Recent Polls (not the overall figures)
    * The recent craziness from Remain politicians and mass die off of Remain supporters Here.
    * There 57-43 remain vote in the london opinion poll which included all those who expressed even a 10% chance of voting and noted 50% of 18-24s probably wouldn't vote.
    * Polls in Wales showing basically 50/50
    * Lord Haywards research in todays Telegraph.

    I make the following prediction. Short of heaven forfend a terrible event (as happened before that election in Spain) or other major black swan event in the same league

    Leave victory, with 60% chance of the margin exceeding that of the Scottish Referendum.

    Range Leave 53%-57% Remain 43-47%




  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:

    “There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”

    http://order-order.com/2016/06/08/europes-biggest-investor-brexit-good-for-eu/
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
    Well, let's have a rational plan for population growth, what's needed in addition to natural growth for industries etc., how much Green Belt has to be ploughed under, how many schools, hospitals, etc. need to built and myriad other factors and get democratic assent fo this plan.

    Then I'll tell you.
    The plan will be wholesale demolition of 1920s and 1930s estates of houses with decent gardens and replacement with flats because it is the only practicable way.

    It will be upward growth not outward.

    Commieblocks, as they are called in east Germany.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,686
    I have crossed the Leave box on my postal vote, signed it and sealed the envelope. I will post it tomorrow morning on the walk up to the station. I am officially a Leave voter!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281

    OK I am going to risk making an idiot of myself now.

    Based on:

    * Trend in Recent Polls (not the overall figures)
    * The recent craziness from Remain politicians and mass die off of Remain supporters Here.
    * There 57-43 remain vote in the london opinion poll which included all those who expressed even a 10% chance of voting and noted 50% of 18-24s probably wouldn't vote.
    * Polls in Wales showing basically 50/50
    * Lord Haywards research in todays Telegraph.

    I make the following prediction. Short of heaven forfend a terrible event (as happened before that election in Spain) or other major black swan event in the same league

    Leave victory, with 60% chance of the margin exceeding that of the Scottish Referendum.

    Range Leave 53%-57% Remain 43-47%




    ORB on Monday had Remain ahead by 1% with those certain to vote, even if by a significantly lower margin than all potential voters
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081
    MP_SE said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    weejonnie said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pew Reseach have found that only 6% of British people want more powers transferred to the EU. It is quite surprising how few people realise that the EU is a political project whose ultimate aim is ever closer union.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/

    Or that the UK has achieved special status via an opt out from that ever closer union.
    How many of the British public do you figure are aware of that detail ?
    0.000001%

    Which supports my point that people are voting emotively because the EU is a convenient bogeyman whom it is easy to blame for any number of other things, from a lack of school places, to the preponderance of the WWC appearing on Jeremy Kyle.
    A case in point (apologies to respond to my own post...having fun here...) - Nigel's latest tweet that we would need to build a new home every four minutes to accommodate current immigration levels.

    The UK has suffered a housing shortage for the past, oh 30 years (ask tim for details). But now, it is the fault of the immigrants and hence we should vote to leave the EU.

    Truly he is despicable and I very rarely say that about politicians.
    Do you deny his claim - if so you are basically doing an ad hominem attack.
    We have a housing shortage in the UK, and have done for many years. Certainly since before the accession countries joined the EU.

    The failure has been in successive governments not building enough houses, then and now. Nige is using immigrants as a scapegoat.
    Housing shortage? People forced to sleep in parks? I remember when the population of the UK fell.
    Population growth in the Naughties was due to immigration. This is unprecedented.

    Also, it is morally bankrupt to sympathise with those having trouble housing themselves whilst simultaneously increasing demand for housing through unfettered immigration.
    Either we have a housing shortage and need to build houses every four minutes or we don't. Make up your mind.

    btw, how much immigration is acceptable for you?
    Well you know how crowded London is these days - imagine it with another Million people pushing to get on the Tube in 4 or 5 years time.

    Hell on earth - if we don't vote Leave.
    I imagine the London underground would be like this train in Japan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A9-oUoMug
    Well, at least Crossrail opens in 2018-2019
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    MP_SE said:

    Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:

    “There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”

    http://order-order.com/2016/06/08/europes-biggest-investor-brexit-good-for-eu/

    Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    MP_SE said:

    Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:

    “There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”

    http://order-order.com/2016/06/08/europes-biggest-investor-brexit-good-for-eu/

    Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
    Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    PlatoSaid said:

    justin124 said:

    Have just voted Leave by post!
    Has the system of Electoral Registration changed in recent years? From memory I had understood that people could only register in respect of the address at which they were living on October 15th of a given year and that such a register came into operation the following February.

    Excellent news, Sir.

    Did anything sway your vote during recent weeks?
    Europe has never been a very salient issue for me one way or the other.However, the sheer contempt that Cameron and Osborne have shown for the British people in this campaign by treating us as fools has persuaded me that this style of politics must not prevail. It is so reminiscent of how they conducted the 2015 election campaign.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    MaxPB said:

    I have crossed the Leave box on my postal vote, signed it and sealed the envelope. I will post it tomorrow morning on the walk up to the station. I am officially a Leave voter!

    Get your tippex out! There is still time!
    Please, please, please
    D Cameron.
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    justin124 said:

    Europe has never been a very salient issue for me one way or the other.However, the sheer contempt that Cameron and Osborne have shown for the British people in this campaign by treating us as fools has persuaded me that this style of politics must not prevail. It is so reminiscent of how they conducted the 2015 election campaign.

    I couldn`t agree more, Justin.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,081
    @justin124

    Good to know you voted LEAVE!
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    I have crossed the Leave box on my postal vote, signed it and sealed the envelope. I will post it tomorrow morning on the walk up to the station. I am officially a Leave voter!

    Chapeau Sir!
  • Options
    Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
    On Friday, apparently Stronger In coalition has agreed that it will be Labour's turn to "dominate" the media. *Ed Miliband* is the star turn
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    MP_SE said:

    Europe's biggest investor, Mohamed El-Erian on Brexit:

    “There are two fundamental divisions of the EU: There’s the British view — that it’s a super free-trade zone, that it’s a destination. Whereas the Germany-France view is that it’s a means to something else — to an ever closer union. These are fundamentally two very different views on what the EU is about. If the referendum [results in the U.K. remaining in the union], we don’t resolve these different views. It means we are going to have tensions over and over again, because they are pursuing two different objectives, within one institutional agreement. So, ironically, over the longer term, an exit may actually solve one of the basic inconsistencies of the European Union.”

    http://order-order.com/2016/06/08/europes-biggest-investor-brexit-good-for-eu/

    Fine but Sweden and Denmark would be leaving with us
    Which is close to the ideal outcome. Ideally the Irish would as well.
    The Irish are in the Eurozone and benefit too much from EU largesse, possible the Czechs, Hungarians and Poles could leave too though
This discussion has been closed.