To be clear, any proposal by either side to disregard the referendum result should be laughed to scorn. Failing that, peasants with pitchforks should march on the Palace of Westminster.
This applies whether the result is Remain or Leave.
Would be quite hilarious if the vote was for Remain, but Parliament decided 'f*ck it'...
I see some leavers are getting a bit heated. Best avoided but I suppose if you had felt passionately about something for the best part of four decades, campaigned for a referendum for two decades and begun against expectations to see the possibility of victory, you would be a bit cross if the other side said they would ignore the wrong answer.
I'm not angry, I think its hilarious. The most spectactular own goal since this:
Sky News bad news for leave. 65 billion gone out of UK in last two months. Maybe this is why leave are drifting in the betting
If that were true the pound would have collapsed over the period. It has actually appreciated since March, when it went sub 1.40 when Boris joined Vote Leave.
More Remain lies.
Now you are saying Sky News are part of the lies. You really csnnot address any fact without trashing it. Fact - 65 billion has gone out of UK assets or converted into foreign currency in last two months
Ok, but quoting a vaguely big number is meaningless without context. How much usually gets converted to foreign currency per month? £65 billion leaving the UK with no appreciable effect on Sterling makes me wonder if this sort of flow is in fact quite normal.
The sums traded on the Foreign Exchange markets in London really are huge - we are talking about trillions not billions. So without a context and comparison I am inclined to write of this story as just another spoke in the project fear wheel.
World foreign exchange turnover - if I recall correctly - is approximately $2-3 trillion, per day.
Sterling is not "top tier" as far as volume goes (that goes to the US Dollar and Euro), but is probably used in 6-8% of al forex trades. So, that means that approximately $150-200bn of sterling is traded every day. In this context, $100bn sterling leaving the country over two months is meaningless noise.
I would note that quite a lot of traders are positioned to benefit if the UK votes for Brexit. These people have almost certainly sold sterling assets now (perhaps having borrowed them first) with the intention of buying them back at lower prices in the event of a Leave vote.
Does variable 3-4 mean I'm going to have 'a bit of a crossing" in the morning?
Mr. Mortimer, winds of 3-4 on the Beaufort Scale will barely be felt on a modern cross-channel ferry. You will have a nice smooth crossing. If the winds get up 8 or 9 then you will have a problem (actually I can be relied upon to spew up on strength 7 but then I am not a good sailor).
Right, chaps, I'm off now (not because of the arguments, just time to stop before my eyes go fuzzy).
Hope people can try and cool off a bit. Although there are some lunatics on either side, most people simply have different opinions (which is, of course, the point of democracy).
Sky News bad news for leave. 65 billion gone out of UK in last two months. Maybe this is why leave are drifting in the betting
If that were true the pound would have collapsed over the period. It has actually appreciated since March, when it went sub 1.40 when Boris joined Vote Leave.
More Remain lies.
Now you are saying Sky News are part of the lies. You really csnnot address any fact without trashing it. Fact - 65 billion has gone out of UK assets or converted into foreign currency in last two months
Ok, but quoting a vaguely big number is meaningless without context. How much usually gets converted to foreign currency per month? £65 billion leaving the UK with no appreciable effect on Sterling makes me wonder if this sort of flow is in fact quite normal.
The sums traded on the Foreign Exchange markets in London really are huge - we are talking about trillions not billions. So without a context and comparison I am inclined to write of this story as just another spoke in the project fear wheel.
World foreign exchange turnover - if I recall correctly - is approximately $2-3 trillion, per day.
Sterling is not "top tier" as far as volume goes (that goes to the US Dollar and Euro), but is probably used in 6-8% of al forex trades. So, that means that approximately $150-200bn of sterling is traded every day. In this context, $100bn sterling leaving the country over two months is meaningless noise.
I would note that quite a lot of traders are positioned to benefit if the UK votes for Brexit. These people have almost certainly sold sterling assets now (perhaps having borrowed them first) with the intention of buying them back at lower prices in the event of a Leave vote.
And if we remain, won't they make a loss - or do 'traders' not need to worry about that sort of thing ?
Will they have an approximately arbitraged product on the other side ?
There is no chance that a Leave vote will be ignored.
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
To be clear, any proposal by either side to disregard the referendum result should be laughed to scorn. Failing that, peasants with pitchforks should march on the Palace of Westminster.
This applies whether the result is Remain or Leave.
To be clear, any proposal by either side to disregard the referendum result should be laughed to scorn. Failing that, peasants with pitchforks should march on the Palace of Westminster.
This applies whether the result is Remain or Leave.
Good for you.
I did actually put this in a thread header a few days ago!
There is no chance that a Leave vote will be ignored.
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
Whether it will or won't be ignored, Kinnock and Astor are Crazy to suggest it this side of the polls
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
Does variable 3-4 mean I'm going to have 'a bit of a crossing" in the morning?
Mr. Mortimer, winds of 3-4 on the Beaufort Scale will barely be felt on a modern cross-channel ferry. You will have a nice smooth crossing. If the winds get up 8 or 9 then you will have a problem (actually I can be relied upon to spew up on strength 7 but then I am not a good sailor).
Thanks for all the kind replies on this.
Worst I've ever had was Naples to Capri after a storm and 2 days of no crossings.
Sky News bad news for leave. 65 billion gone out of UK in last two months. Maybe this is why leave are drifting in the betting
If that were true the pound would have collapsed over the period. It has actually appreciated since March, when it went sub 1.40 when Boris joined Vote Leave.
More Remain lies.
Now you are saying Sky News are part of the lies. You really csnnot address any fact without trashing it. Fact - 65 billion has gone out of UK assets or converted into foreign currency in last two months
Ok, but quoting a vaguely big number is meaningless without context. How much usually gets converted to foreign currency per month? £65 billion leaving the UK with no appreciable effect on Sterling makes me wonder if this sort of flow is in fact quite normal.
The sums traded on the Foreign Exchange markets in London really are huge - we are talking about trillions not billions. So without a context and comparison I am inclined to write of this story as just another spoke in the project fear wheel.
World foreign exchange turnover - if I recall correctly - is approximately $2-3 trillion, per day.
Sterling is not "top tier" as far as volume goes (that goes to the US Dollar and Euro), but is probably used in 6-8% of al forex trades. So, that means that approximately $150-200bn of sterling is traded every day. In this context, $100bn sterling leaving the country over two months is meaningless noise.
I would note that quite a lot of traders are positioned to benefit if the UK votes for Brexit. These people have almost certainly sold sterling assets now (perhaps having borrowed them first) with the intention of buying them back at lower prices in the event of a Leave vote.
Thanks for that, Mr Robert, I rather suspected that the absence of context meant that the story was a nonsense cooked by by Project Fear. I am pleased to have professional confirmation.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
Surely that's right.
In fact, the one way in which a Leave result could end up not being enacted is if, say, two years go past, Article 50 has not been invoked and public opinion has swung drastically back the other way. But it would be in the hands of the victorious Leave campaign to prevent that by simply invoking Article 50 at an early stage. Then we're committed. Afaik there is no mechanism for withdrawing it?
It would be a lot simpler if everyone just voted Leave. That way there is no chance of a second referendum and PB can go back to being a more pleasant place.
Mr. Royale, this, by Mr. Fire below, is relevant to the Astor comments: "OK, that's [Astor's comments] different, and I completely agree that would be outrageous."
Thank you MD. Much as I hope Remain win, I too would be out with placards were Parliament to overrule or ignore a Leave result as Astor appears to have suggested.
But you have said you see no problem in keeping us in the single market, even in the event of a leave vote. I'm not sure how that would even be possible, unless we join EFTA, in which case all the arguments we've been having about immigration and access to the single market will be moot.
My point is that it is up to Parliament to decide. A Leave result (morally) binds Parliament to leave the EU. It doesn't mandate what happens next. So, yes, the arguments on immigration may be moot if Parliament were to decide to down the EFTA route. It's Parliament's call.
In an attempt to calm tempers - here I agree with you.
The most sensible approach, after a Brexit vote, would be for MPs to take us straight into the EEA or EFTA, so trade is not unduly troubled, and some stability is restored. And the initial detachment from the EU can begin.
Then I think we would need a new election, after a year or two, in which case all parties would put forward their plans for our new relationship with the EU - EEA, EFTA, WTO, or something completely bespoke, at the same time spelling out their plans for immigration.
And then the voters would choose which precise relationship they want to be negotiated with Brussels.
That seems fair and democratic, while likely to do the least damage to our economy.
And in turn I agree with you. Though the bettor in me would find a EEA vs EFTA vs WTO referendum would be highly entertaining, especially if it was run under AV
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
A lectuter in psychology and earns less than £18600 a year?
I never understood why for the visa thing they didn't do combined family income. I presume there must have been some reason.
lets say he is earning less than the level, if the other half earns a fortune, you would have thought there would be a way for her to pay her husband for some sort of admin work or something similar to top up his earnings.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
A lectuter in psychology and earns less than £18600 a year?
I never understood why for the visa thing they didn't do combined family income. I presume there must have been some reason.
Sounds like the husband is on a skilled migrant visa for which the earnings threshold has recently been raised to £35k, which I suspect is the problem.
I don 't understand why he hasn't just switched to a spouse visa though where as you say the earnings threshold is only £18k.
There is no chance that a Leave vote will be ignored.
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
So that's official. The BoE is working for Remain - a total disgrace.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
Yes, the craziness of a rigid points system and quota to reduce to the tens of thousands! It creates a well paid job for a Brit though.
In terms of Parliament respecting the result, it certainly should and would. The only circumstances where this would not be the case would be if within the 2 year leaving negotiations that a second referendum was held that reversed the vote.
Sounds like the husband is on a skilled migrant visa for which the earnings threshold has recently been raised to £35k, which I suspect is the problem.
I don 't understand why he hasn't just switched to a spouse visa though where as you say the earnings threshold is only £18k.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
A lectuter in psychology and earns less than £18600 a year?
He was ill for a while, and is only working part-time in a private school. His wife earns a hell of a lot to be honest, more than enough to keep them both comfortably. They don't claim benefits, have no kids and her private health was picking up the tab for his treatment. It's something to do with them getting caught up in a retro active rule change, as far as I can tell.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
It seems reasonable that if one has a points-type system the migrant has to meet the criteria themselves not via their spouse. It's harsh but then, that's the idea isn't it?
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
A lectuter in psychology and earns less than £18600 a year?
He was ill for a while, and is only working part-time in a private school. His wife earns a hell of a lot to be honest, more than enough to keep them both comfortably. They don't claim benefits, have no kids and her private health was picking up the tab for his treatment. It's something to do with them getting caught up in a retro active rule change, as far as I can tell.
To be honest, it sounds like they have been badly advised. As we one very high earner you should be able to arrange your affairs for it not to be a problem.
The system is certainly pretty crappy in many respects, but for high earners none of this should be an issue with the proper advice. It is those who have more "average" wagers that get the crappy treatment.
As I say, I don't really understand why they didn't go for both greater than say £25k OR a combined couple income of say greater than £60k.
I've been told I'm a frother, unhinged, tin foiled, xenophobic, foamer and lunatic.
What could possibly have given people that impression?
F**k off. I've said and done *nothing* until today to give anyone any justification for such labels. In fact, my contributions on the site on this debate have been commended as measured and informative by both sides.
But I've had enough. I'm sick of the sneering, condescension, pomposity, arrogance, lies, manipulation and insults by Remain. I've had it up to here, and just boiled over.
People like YOU own this problem.
My perception is that most of the abuse comes from the Leave side.
Peter Hitchens (who opposes the idea of this referendum), thinks that Leave may win it and it will cause the biggest constitutional crises since Lloyd George's peoples budget of 1909
I've been told I'm a frother, unhinged, tin foiled, xenophobic, foamer and lunatic.
What could possibly have given people that impression?
F**k off. I've said and done *nothing* until today to give anyone any justification for such labels. In fact, my contributions on the site on this debate have been commended as measured and informative by both sides.
But I've had enough. I'm sick of the sneering, condescension, pomposity, arrogance, lies, manipulation and insults by Remain. I've had it up to here, and just boiled over.
People like YOU own this problem.
My perception is that most of the abuse comes from the Leave side.
Peter Hitchens (who opposes the idea of this referendum), thinks that Leave may win it and it will cause the biggest constitutional crises since Lloyd George's peoples budget of 1909
Mr. Royale, this, by Mr. Fire below, is relevant to the Astor comments: "OK, that's [Astor's comments] different, and I completely agree that would be outrageous."
Thank you MD. Much as I hope Remain win, I too would be out with placards were Parliament to overrule or ignore a Leave result as Astor appears to have suggested.
But you have said you see no problem in keeping us in the single market, even in the event of a leave vote. I'm not sure how that would even be possible, unless we join EFTA, in which case all the arguments we've been having about immigration and access to the single market will be moot.
My point is that it is up to Parliament to decide. A Leave result (morally) binds Parliament to leave the EU. It doesn't mandate what happens next. So, yes, the arguments on immigration may be moot if Parliament were to decide to down the EFTA route. It's Parliament's call.
Yebbut.....
The problem is that the Tories stood on a manifesto pledge of reducing immigration to fewer than 100k net per year.. and they form a majority of MPs.The only way to honour that pledge is to leave the EU and the EEA.
If the Tories en masse for EFTA without stopping free movement they will be crucified at the next opportunity. See LibDems for details.
A lectuter in psychology and earns less than £18600 a year?
I never understood why for the visa thing they didn't do combined family income. I presume there must have been some reason.
lets say he is earning less than the level, if the other half earns a fortune, you would have thought there would be a way for her to pay her husband for some sort of admin work or something similar to top up his earnings.
Don't get me started!
The current system is a complete joke. There are all sorts of rules about where you can earn the money from and where you can't over how many months and in which financial institutions you are allowed to keep any money and for how long if you are relying on them as declared saving. There are further idiotic rules involving additional amounts required for each child, so there have been several cases of people who have enough money to sponsor their wife, but can't bring their children as well, so they have to leave the kids with relatives for six months while they build up more income in the UK (because foreign earned income is disallowed in most cases) before they can bring their kids over as well.
I reckon the atmosphere after the vote is going to be tense enough, without the likes of mostly unpopular politicians trying to stand in the way. That's heading down piano and lamp post territory, somewhere we never want to be.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
Dirct action by family friends and neighbours was the call. Or are they all too middle class to protest? Putting your faith in the system, mugs game.
I've been told I'm a frother, unhinged, tin foiled, xenophobic, foamer and lunatic.
What could possibly have given people that impression?
F**k off. I've said and done *nothing* until today to give anyone any justification for such labels. In fact, my contributions on the site on this debate have been commended as measured and informative by both sides.
But I've had enough. I'm sick of the sneering, condescension, pomposity, arrogance, lies, manipulation and insults by Remain. I've had it up to here, and just boiled over.
People like YOU own this problem.
My perception is that most of the abuse comes from the Leave side.
Perhaps we can ask Yougov to run a poll
Its as likely to be as accurate as all their other polls, and all the other polls from the other polling companies.
Frankly , and of course I could be absolutely wrong , I think leave is overhyping itself.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
It seems reasonable that if one has a points-type system the migrant has to meet the criteria themselves not via their spouse. It's harsh but then, that's the idea isn't it?
It is much the same with a number of my friends. They object to immigrants in principle for pushing up house prices and taking jobs, yet will approve of all the individual immigrants that they meet.
Could I put a further plug in for Channel 4's programme led by Hennig Wehn "An immigrants Guide to Britain". The Indian Chemist learning how to chat up women and play rugby is a scream. I do wonder if he is Sunil's twin. The Polish guy seeing if he can provoke Brits into complaining about the coffee he sells too. It is a hilarious backdrop to a referendum that sorely needs a little levity.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
I find that very odd. Let me give you two examples.
There is a developer at PythonAnywhere who came on a working holiday visa. That visa has now run out. PythonAnywhere has hired an immigration lawyer, and is jumping through the appropriate hoops, and said developer (who earns sub 50k per year) will get to stay.
The head of development at CrowdScores is also a commonwealth citizen who's visa has come to an end. He's a lot more senior developer - and may meet the income criteria - but he (again) is having no problem in getting a visa to stay. (Admittedly, though, he's had to go to Australia for a month and apply from there.)
On Sterling, I expect that if it is Leave then it will fall in the immediacy but rise fairly soon after. However, as many are currently saying, the UK economy isn't looking particularly rosy. Any investment outflows may be down to the shocking current account deficit, people are working out that the current boom is built on sand. Brexit or no Brexit, we're heading into a rocky patch, and Osborne is not the person best suited to guide us through.
Mr. Royale, this, by Mr. Fire below, is relevant to the Astor comments: "OK, that's [Astor's comments] different, and I completely agree that would be outrageous."
Thank you MD. Much as I hope Remain win, I too would be out with placards were Parliament to overrule or ignore a Leave result as Astor appears to have suggested.
But you have said you see no problem in keeping us in the single market, even in the event of a leave vote. I'm not sure how that would even be possible, unless we join EFTA, in which case all the arguments we've been having about immigration and access to the single market will be moot.
My point is that it is up to Parliament to decide. A Leave result (morally) binds Parliament to leave the EU. It doesn't mandate what happens next. So, yes, the arguments on immigration may be moot if Parliament were to decide to down the EFTA route. It's Parliament's call.
Yebbut.....
The problem is that the Tories stood on a manifesto pledge of reducing immigration to fewer than 100k net per year.. and they form a majority of MPs.The only way to honour that pledge is to leave the EU and the EEA.
If the Tories en masse for EFTA without stopping free movement they will be crucified at the next opportunity. See LibDems for details.
It is worth remembering that non-EU immigration is currently running at 155,000 a year. So, the government is lucky to have the excuse of the EU to draw attention from the fact that even if EU immigration was zero, they would have missed by more than 50%.
There is no chance that a Leave vote will be ignored.
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
The problem is to define what ignore means. For instance, Michael Gove, a leading member of Vote Leave, doesn't want the UK to leave in two years. He thinks it should be more like four or five - after which there would be a totally new set of MPs, with fresher mandates than the referendum.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
I find that very odd. Let me give you two examples.
There is a developer at PythonAnywhere who came on a working holiday visa. That visa has now run out. PythonAnywhere has hired an immigration lawyer, and is jumping through the appropriate hoops, and said developer (who earns sub 50k per year) will get to stay.
The head of development at CrowdScores is also a commonwealth citizen who's visa has come to an end. He's a lot more senior developer - and may meet the income criteria - but he (again) is having no problem in getting a visa to stay. (Admittedly, though, he's had to go to Australia for a month and apply from there.)
As I say, I don't know all the details, just that it's something to do with earnings.
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
I've been told I'm a frother, unhinged, tin foiled, xenophobic, foamer and lunatic.
What could possibly have given people that impression?
F**k off. I've said and done *nothing* until today to give anyone any justification for such labels. In fact, my contributions on the site on this debate have been commended as measured and informative by both sides.
But I've had enough. I'm sick of the sneering, condescension, pomposity, arrogance, lies, manipulation and insults by Remain. I've had it up to here, and just boiled over.
People like YOU own this problem.
My perception is that most of the abuse comes from the Leave side.
Perhaps we can ask Yougov to run a poll
Its as likely to be as accurate as all their other polls, and all the other polls from the other polling companies.
Frankly , and of course I could be absolutely wrong , I think leave is overhyping itself.
One thing is certain, some of them will end up with egg on their face.
There is no chance that a Leave vote will be ignored.
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
The problem is to define what ignore means. For instance, Michael Gove, a leading member of Vote Leave, doesn't want the UK to leave in two years. He thinks it should be more like four or five - after which there would be a totally new set of MPs, with fresher mandates than the referendum.
Article 50 would be invoked immediately. I suspect a full settlement would take 5 to 6 years, but an interim EEA-type deal would be achieved within two.
I find that very odd. Let me give you two examples.
There is a developer at PythonAnywhere who came on a working holiday visa. That visa has now run out. PythonAnywhere has hired an immigration lawyer, and is jumping through the appropriate hoops, and said developer (who earns sub 50k per year) will get to stay.
The head of development at CrowdScores is also a commonwealth citizen who's visa has come to an end. He's a lot more senior developer - and may meet the income criteria - but he (again) is having no problem in getting a visa to stay. (Admittedly, though, he's had to go to Australia for a month and apply from there.)
The problem people have is usually that the money is not earned in the UK, for some bizarre reason that is usually disallowed. So the people that usually have the problem are expats abroad for years that marry a local girl and start a family, then something happens like a parent dies and they want to move back to the UK. It largely doesnt matter what they earn abroad (with certain exception) they will fail the test due to no money being earned in the UK, also if they were careless enough to not have their saving in an international bank for six months prior to application then that will get discounted as well. I would guess someone living in the UK but being paid abroad could run into the same sort of problem.
Anecdote: We dont have the only stupid system, I met a kiwi here a few days ago, retired with a filipina wife in her 40s and a kid. They were in New Zealand living on his various benefits which were sufficient to put him over the earnings requirement to sponsor her visa, they came to the Philippines for a few months on vacation not realising that some of his benefits got downgraded after being out of the country for three months, at which point he was not earning enough to sponsor his wife's visa and they revoked her visa. So he now has to got back on his own for six months to pick up his rights again, and earn enough to qualify once more to sponsor her visa.
The problem is to define what ignore means. For instance, Michael Gove, a leading member of Vote Leave, doesn't want the UK to leave in two years. He thinks it should be more like four or five - after which there would be a totally new set of MPs, with fresher mandates than the referendum.
I pointed this out some time ago. To use the phrase "ignore the vote to LEAVE" or "respect the vote to LEAVE" one must define what LEAVE means.
If LEAVE wins and Gove becomes PM and still hasn't invoked Article whatever within 1-2 years, then...is the vote being respected - because a LEAVER is PM - or ignored - because we haven't given notice of departure?
"t is much the same with a number of my friends. They object to immigrants in principle for pushing up house prices and taking jobs, yet will approve of all the individual immigrants that they meet."
Nothing odd about that, Doc. It is perfectly respectable position to disagree with the process of large scale immigration, yet be more than happy with individual immigrants. Personally I think increasing the population of the country by the size of a medium city each year is a very bad idea, but I spent some time this afternoon writing a letter of recommendation for a business set up by an immigrant from Eastern Europe and his wife.
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
It seems reasonable that if one has a points-type system the migrant has to meet the criteria themselves not via their spouse. It's harsh but then, that's the idea isn't it?
It is much the same with a number of my friends. They object to immigrants in principle for pushing up house prices and taking jobs, yet will approve of all the individual immigrants that they meet.
Could I put a further plug in for Channel 4's programme led by Hennig Wehn "An immigrants Guide to Britain". The Indian Chemist learning how to chat up women and play rugby is a scream. I do wonder if he is Sunil's twin. The Polish guy seeing if he can provoke Brits into complaining about the coffee he sells too. It is a hilarious backdrop to a referendum that sorely needs a little levity.
I'll watch that over dinner. Has to be said that the instinct for self-mockery, which is meant to be our national trademark, seems to have gone awol.
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
Anyone think Leave are starting to wobble?
Enjoyed his 'little list'; detest the way we can't call a spade a spade anymore.
Article 50 would be invoked immediately. I suspect a full settlement would take 5 to 6 years, but an interim EEA-type deal would be achieved within two.
There is no scope in the legislation for an interim deal
The existing treaties are in force until the withdrawal agreement is enacted.
Mr. Royale, this, by Mr. Fire below, is relevant to the Astor comments: "OK, that's [Astor's comments] different, and I completely agree that would be outrageous."
Thank you MD. Much as I hope Remain win, I too would be out with placards were Parliament to overrule or ignore a Leave result as Astor appears to have suggested.
But you have said you see no problem in keeping us in the single market, even in the event of a leave vote. I'm not sure how that would even be possible, unless we join EFTA, in which case all the arguments we've been having about immigration and access to the single market will be moot.
My point is that it is up to Parliament to decide. A Leave result (morally) binds Parliament to leave the EU. It doesn't mandate what happens next. So, yes, the arguments on immigration may be moot if Parliament were to decide to down the EFTA route. It's Parliament's call.
Yebbut.....
The problem is that the Tories stood on a manifesto pledge of reducing immigration to fewer than 100k net per year.. and they form a majority of MPs.The only way to honour that pledge is to leave the EU and the EEA.
If the Tories en masse for EFTA without stopping free movement they will be crucified at the next opportunity. See LibDems for details.
It is worth remembering that non-EU immigration is currently running at 155,000 a year. So, the government is lucky to have the excuse of the EU to draw attention from the fact that even if EU immigration was zero, they would have missed by more than 50%.
Remind me never to hire you as my defence attorney.
You would add 5 years to my sentence.
"No, m'lud, my client couldn't have robbed that bank at the time alleged because he was busy robbing a much more lucrative jeweller's instead."
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The problem is to define what ignore means. For instance, Michael Gove, a leading member of Vote Leave, doesn't want the UK to leave in two years. He thinks it should be more like four or five - after which there would be a totally new set of MPs, with fresher mandates than the referendum.
I pointed this out some time ago. To use the phrase "ignore the vote to LEAVE" or "respect the vote to LEAVE" one must define what LEAVE means.
If LEAVE wins and Gove becomes PM and still hasn't invoked Article whatever within 1-2 years, then...is the vote being respected - because a LEAVER is PM - or ignored - because we haven't given notice of departure?
Gove would be denounced as a LINO before Christmas if he hadn't invoked Article 50.
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
So far on this thread I've seen Remainers referred to as "scum", as "anti-democrats" and read talk of how we must be "CRUSHED" - talk which was then applauded.
Clearly I was very wrong to return to this site. Fine, I'm gone for good this time. The atmosphere is vile and full of hate. If you hard line Leavers wish to converse on here with nobody other than those who share your own views then you're clearly very close to achieving that goal. I'm not the first to go and I'm sure I'll not be the last either.
I've had enough too. Not a sane place for discussion at the moment. I'll look in again after the referendum and with a bit the worst offenders will have spontaneously combusted after Remain have won.
'Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on '
The example he gave was Canada who have objected to it being included,why would a country like Canada want the EU sticking its nose in their justice system.
Bet the EU have not made the same requirement with the USA trade deal.
So far on this thread I've seen Remainers referred to as "scum", as "anti-democrats" and read talk of how we must be "CRUSHED" - talk which was then applauded.
Clearly I was very wrong to return to this site. Fine, I'm gone for good this time. The atmosphere is vile and full of hate. If you hard line Leavers wish to converse on here with nobody other than those who share your own views then you're clearly very close to achieving that goal. I'm not the first to go and I'm sure I'll not be the last either.
I've had enough too. Not a sane place for discussion at the moment. I'll look in again after the referendum and with a bit the worst offenders will have spontaneously combusted after Remain have won.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The post-Brexit government would want at least a mini crackdown on EU sourced immigration without loosening up on non -EU immigration, surely? Otherwise what would be the point of all that grief and anti immigration rhetoric?
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
Precisely. The rate of rejections of application submitted through embassies and consulates suddenly increased by 18% this year, are we to believe applicants suddenly got 18% worse ? Not just that but rules on appeal for applicants outside the country just got dramatically tougher last October, to the extend that you are no longer allowed to submit extra evidence to support your case on appeal, the appeal is only on the basis of evidence submitted with the application. Ironically the equivalent rules for people inside the country got comparatively easier at the same time.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The majority Of EU migrants in 2015 had a job , the majority of non EU migrants ( circa 180,000 ) who came here in 2015 did not become employed .
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?
Poor.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
Don't even try and talk to me.
I don't engage with autocrats and anti-democrats.
I work to defeat them.
You guys are seriously starting to sound unhinged and there's still 2 weeks to go. The world won't end either way on June 24th you need to get a sense of proportion for your own sake.
I'll be polite: please sod off.
I've been told I'm a frother, unhinged, tin foiled, xenophobic, foamer and lunatic.
How about I call all Remainers traitors, cowards, selfish money-grabbing urchins, or plutocrats? Would you like that? Would you?
Because I can't see any other reason for a free born Brit to vote *against* democratic self-governance of his/her own country, with the right to elect/kick-out those who make his/her own laws.
Sky News bad news for leave. 65 billion gone out of UK in last two months. Maybe this is why leave are drifting in the betting
If that were true the pound would have collapsed over the period. It has actually appreciated since March, when it went sub 1.40 when Boris joined Vote Leave.
More Remain lies.
Now you are saying Sky News are part of the lies. You really csnnot address any fact without trashing it. Fact - 65 billion has gone out of UK assets or converted into foreign currency in last two months
Why are you here? I thought you'd promised to log off and not come back until 24th June?
Remind me never to hire you as my defence attorney.
You would add 5 years to my sentence.
"No, m'lud, my client couldn't have robbed that bank at the time alleged because he was busy robbing a much more lucrative jeweller's instead."
Actually, Mr Bilge, given the way the criminal justice system works in this Country that may be a very valid and workable defence.
One can only be convicted of the crime for which one is charged. So convincing the jury that one could not have committed the crime because one was committing another elsewhere at the time would guarantee a verdict of not guilty and you would walk away without a stain on your character.
Should the Plod then try and prosecute you for the offence you have admitted they would have to have some real evidence as your admission at a previous hearing would have to be kept from the jury. You could even do a reverse and claim that you couldn't have robbed the jewellers because you were robbing the bank at the time (an offence for which you have already been acquitted and so cannot be tried again).
A. P. Herbert should have written a story about such legal nonsense.
Sky News bad news for leave. 65 billion gone out of UK in last two months. Maybe this is why leave are drifting in the betting
If that were true the pound would have collapsed over the period. It has actually appreciated since March, when it went sub 1.40 when Boris joined Vote Leave.
More Remain lies.
Now you are saying Sky News are part of the lies. You really csnnot address any fact without trashing it. Fact - 65 billion has gone out of UK assets or converted into foreign currency in last two months
Why are you here? I thought you'd promised to log off and not come back until 24th June?
So far on this thread I've seen Remainers referred to as "scum", as "anti-democrats" and read talk of how we must be "CRUSHED" - talk which was then applauded.
Clearly I was very wrong to return to this site. Fine, I'm gone for good this time. The atmosphere is vile and full of hate. If you hard line Leavers wish to converse on here with nobody other than those who share your own views then you're clearly very close to achieving that goal. I'm not the first to go and I'm sure I'll not be the last either.
I've had enough too. Not a sane place for discussion at the moment. I'll look in again after the referendum and with a bit the worst offenders will have spontaneously combusted after Remain have won.
So anyhoo. Got a bit cheery today when I realised that if LEAVE won, my returns (tho' not my winnings!) would be of the same order of magnitude of my bonus. Yay!
Then I got a bit glum when I realised that if LEAVE won, nobody would be getting a bonus next year...
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The majority Of EU migrants in 2015 had a job , the majority of non EU migrants ( circa 180,000 ) who came here in 2015 did not become employed .
What are all the non EU migrants doing (Yr number excludes short term students iirc ?)
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The majority Of EU migrants in 2015 had a job , the majority of non EU migrants ( circa 180,000 ) who came here in 2015 did not become employed .
Doesn't that reflect the fact the hanger oners have to come with the non EU migrants? The EU workers can claim benefits for their kids back home - though I think that will end once Dave's deal is ratified.
BBC accused of 'PC nonsense' after saying football fans dressed as knights could be offensive to Muslims and the St George's cross is 'associated with far-right nationalism'
So far on this thread I've seen Remainers referred to as "scum", as "anti-democrats" and read talk of how we must be "CRUSHED" - talk which was then applauded.
Clearly I was very wrong to return to this site. Fine, I'm gone for good this time. The atmosphere is vile and full of hate. If you hard line Leavers wish to converse on here with nobody other than those who share your own views then you're clearly very close to achieving that goal. I'm not the first to go and I'm sure I'll not be the last either.
I've had enough too. Not a sane place for discussion at the moment. I'll look in again after the referendum and with a bit the worst offenders will have spontaneously combusted after Remain have won.
I think as a Remainer you are required to remain. We are becoming an endangered species,
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The majority Of EU migrants in 2015 had a job , the majority of non EU migrants ( circa 180,000 ) who came here in 2015 did not become employed .
Doesn't that reflect the fact the hanger oners have to come with the non EU migrants? The EU workers can claim benefits for their kids back home - though I think that will end once Dave's deal is ratified.
No it won't, all he got them to agree to was to let the UK prorate the benefit according to the cost of living in the country the kid is living in. Bureaucratic nightmare or what, it would have to be calculated for each country where someone is sending benefit to a child, and constantly updated, not only that in some of the countries we would have to pay more rather than less.
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
I find that very odd. Let me give you two examples.
There is a developer at PythonAnywhere who came on a working holiday visa. That visa has now run out. PythonAnywhere has hired an immigration lawyer, and is jumping through the appropriate hoops, and said developer (who earns sub 50k per year) will get to stay.
The head of development at CrowdScores is also a commonwealth citizen who's visa has come to an end. He's a lot more senior developer - and may meet the income criteria - but he (again) is having no problem in getting a visa to stay. (Admittedly, though, he's had to go to Australia for a month and apply from there.)
The threshold is about £41k at the moment... I can see a developer in London being on it a lecturer is less likely to be...
The craziness of our immigration system in one little vignette. A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here. For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair. Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears. Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight. The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English. The street is in uproar. They want out.
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Not so. There has been a massive tightening up in 'soft' immigration targets over the last few years to compensate for the fact that EU migration is so large. Non EU migrants with a lot to offer the country are being thrown out in favour of EU migrants who may have nothing to offer at all.
The majority Of EU migrants in 2015 had a job , the majority of non EU migrants ( circa 180,000 ) who came here in 2015 did not become employed .
What are all the non EU migrants doing (Yr number excludes short term students iirc ?)
Half of the people who arrive long term (more than one year) are students, mainly at university.
Asylum seekers and Family joiners are 30-40k each.
260,000 or so are workers, of which 100,000 are granted high skilled visas.
It seems fairly probable that if Remain win, the 160,000 workers who are not classified as highly skilled will become the focus of further reductions.
Most non-EU arrivals come from China, India and the USA these days.
@JoeWatts_: @DanHannanMEP says if it's a very tight win for #Leave there will have to be a middle way found between #Remain and full #Brexit
Hmm. If Hannan has said that I don't think he's just being nice to Remainers. He must either think Leave will win comfortably (and he wants to sound statesmanlike in the meantime) or he thinks it will be very close either way and wants to put pressure on Remain to make an equivalent commitment.
Many journalists are looking in the wrong place for EUref poll data about immigration. People don't think of immigration as a separate issue from "jobs" and "the economy". But I've said that before. Here is something far more interesting that I found in the YouGov poll data:
People who said which way they intended to vote were distributed like this:
leaving EU would mean more immigration: Remain 7%, Leave 1% leaving EU would have no effect on immigration: Remain 47%, Leave 9% leaving EU would mean less immigration: Remain 33%, Leave 87% don't know: Remain 13%, Leave 3%
So clearly almost everyone who intends to vote Leave thinks leaving will reduce immigration. But the majority of those who intend to vote Remain think leaving will either increase immigration or have no effect on it.
I just wonder whether the Remain campaign is going to take people for such morons that it will try to win over intending Leave voters by urging them to believe that leaving wouldn't actually reduce immigration at all. I wouldn't put it past them. But they would be underestimating people's intelligence, rare though that is for politicians of any stripe.
I know that several LEAVERs have gotten intense after reports that MPs plan to join EEA post-Brexit. Whilst I acknowledge their anger I need to pont out todays Times editorial, which states:
"...Yet it is an indictment that the LEAVE campaign declines to spell out its vision of a post-EU future, largely because it cannot agree with it....The House of Commons will not be violating the will of the British people in preserving membership of the single market if Brexit campaigners refuse to be straight with the voters about the alternative..."
I also need to point out that I have in previous posts advocated an Artice 50 invocation immediately after the LEAVE vote, on the grounds that a) the country cannot afford confusion, b) ease of administation, and c) otherwise it's just f***ing around.
@JoeWatts_: @DanHannanMEP says if it's a very tight win for #Leave there will have to be a middle way found between #Remain and full #Brexit
That sounds eminently sensible to me. I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the public aren't that enamoured of the EU in it's current guise, but not to the point where they really actually want to leave. A narrow leave vote might be the catalyst that leads to the reform the EU clearly needs, and that a lot of the citizens of Europe would like to see take place.
@JoeWatts_: @DanHannanMEP says if it's a very tight win for #Leave there will have to be a middle way found between #Remain and full #Brexit
Might persuade a few tepid Remainers to follow their hearts and vote Leave. Smart politics by Hannan.
Yes, consideing Remain so monstered Boris when he hinted that there could be further negotiations and another referendum on a better package and said OUT MEANS OUT for fear of soft remainers.voting out in the hope of this they have rather just shot their fox with Astor Kinnock et als spoutings
Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on. Something Leavers consider trivial. I have no idea whether it's important or not but for those who remember Peter Lilley singing at Party Conferences it doesn't look good. Moreso as the story followed Mike Ashley where conditions were so bad a pregnant woman had to give birth in a toilet
Anyone think Leave are starting to wobble?
Looking forward to Farage vs Cameron. Are you ?
Neither exactly floats my boat. As Farage has spent most of his life arguing this one he should start at an advantage. Any thoughts?
Comments
I'm not angry, I think its hilarious. The most spectactular own goal since this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afnflTBzuys
Sterling is not "top tier" as far as volume goes (that goes to the US Dollar and Euro), but is probably used in 6-8% of al forex trades. So, that means that approximately $150-200bn of sterling is traded every day. In this context, $100bn sterling leaving the country over two months is meaningless noise.
I would note that quite a lot of traders are positioned to benefit if the UK votes for Brexit. These people have almost certainly sold sterling assets now (perhaps having borrowed them first) with the intention of buying them back at lower prices in the event of a Leave vote.
Brexit: Are you in or out? Does the UK really want to be governed by people that are unelected?
https://twitter.com/bryanadams/status/735780715523084288
Hope people can try and cool off a bit. Although there are some lunatics on either side, most people simply have different opinions (which is, of course, the point of democracy).
Will they have an approximately arbitraged product on the other side ?
None. Zero. Nada.
Politicians care about one thing. And that thing is not the EU. They care about remaining on the parliamentary gravy train, getting cheap booze, having sex with their researchers, and getting the respect that comes with the letters MP.
Any Conservative MP that sought to ignore the vote would be deselected. Any Labour MP who was in a Leave voting area (with UKIP nipping at the heals) would lose their seat at the next general election. I even suspect that a few Liberal Democrat MPs would baulk at the prospect of reneging on a referendum result.
In any case, it's irrelevent. Either David Cameron or his successor will invoke Article 50 within weeks of a Leave vote.
A neighbour a few doors down to me is American. He's a lecturer in psychology, married to a British woman who has a high powered job in finance with a big US corporation. They met when she was based in the US when he was doing some work for her firm. They've been in this country since 2013. They rent the house, but were hoping to buy it once he'd been granted leave to settle over here.
For some reason, he's been told he doesn't meet the criteria to stay, something to do with his earnings not being enough, even though his wife earns a fortune. I don't know all the details, to be fair.
Appeals to Nicky Morgan, our MP, to get involved fell on deaf ears.
Fortunately, his wife's firm have offered her her old position back in the states with a better package, and they're paying to ship their stuff back to the states, so they're packing up to leave tonight.
The firm packing their stuff up have sent two Polish lads to box up, who barely speak English.
The street is in uproar. They want out.
Worst I've ever had was Naples to Capri after a storm and 2 days of no crossings.
Nothing a 3 hour lunch didn't solve!
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/marine/beaufort-scale
Calm sea, prosperous voyage.
In fact, the one way in which a Leave result could end up not being enacted is if, say, two years go past, Article 50 has not been invoked and public opinion has swung drastically back the other way. But it would be in the hands of the victorious Leave campaign to prevent that by simply invoking Article 50 at an early stage. Then we're committed. Afaik there is no mechanism for withdrawing it?
I never understood why for the visa thing they didn't do combined family income. I presume there must have been some reason.
lets say he is earning less than the level, if the other half earns a fortune, you would have thought there would be a way for her to pay her husband for some sort of admin work or something similar to top up his earnings.
I don 't understand why he hasn't just switched to a spouse visa though where as you say the earnings threshold is only £18k.
In terms of Parliament respecting the result, it certainly should and would. The only circumstances where this would not be the case would be if within the 2 year leaving negotiations that a second referendum was held that reversed the vote.
The system is certainly pretty crappy in many respects, but for high earners none of this should be an issue with the proper advice. It is those who have more "average" wagers that get the crappy treatment.
As I say, I don't really understand why they didn't go for both greater than say £25k OR a combined couple income of say greater than £60k.
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/06/the-leave-campaign-may-well-be-winning-.html
The problem is that the Tories stood on a manifesto pledge of reducing immigration to fewer than 100k net per year.. and they form a majority of MPs.The only way to honour that pledge is to leave the EU and the EEA.
If the Tories en masse for EFTA without stopping free movement they will be crucified at the next opportunity. See LibDems for details.
The current system is a complete joke. There are all sorts of rules about where you can earn the money from and where you can't over how many months and in which financial institutions you are allowed to keep any money and for how long if you are relying on them as declared saving. There are further idiotic rules involving additional amounts required for each child, so there have been several cases of people who have enough money to sponsor their wife, but can't bring their children as well, so they have to leave the kids with relatives for six months while they build up more income in the UK (because foreign earned income is disallowed in most cases) before they can bring their kids over as well.
protest?
Putting your faith in the system, mugs game.
Frankly , and of course I could be absolutely wrong , I think leave is overhyping itself.
Could I put a further plug in for Channel 4's programme led by Hennig Wehn "An immigrants Guide to Britain". The Indian Chemist learning how to chat up women and play rugby is a scream. I do wonder if he is Sunil's twin. The Polish guy seeing if he can provoke Brits into complaining about the coffee he sells too. It is a hilarious backdrop to a referendum that sorely needs a little levity.
There is a developer at PythonAnywhere who came on a working holiday visa. That visa has now run out. PythonAnywhere has hired an immigration lawyer, and is jumping through the appropriate hoops, and said developer (who earns sub 50k per year) will get to stay.
The head of development at CrowdScores is also a commonwealth citizen who's visa has come to an end. He's a lot more senior developer - and may meet the income criteria - but he (again) is having no problem in getting a visa to stay. (Admittedly, though, he's had to go to Australia for a month and apply from there.)
TBF the immigration rules your street object to are under our control already. Brexit would just allow us to extend the same stupidity across the board.
Anyone think Leave are starting to wobble?
http://order-order.com/2016/06/07/key-electoral-commission-expenses-fraud-staffer-ranted-against-tories/
Anecdote: We dont have the only stupid system, I met a kiwi here a few days ago, retired with a filipina wife in her 40s and a kid. They were in New Zealand living on his various benefits which were sufficient to put him over the earnings requirement to sponsor her visa, they came to the Philippines for a few months on vacation not realising that some of his benefits got downgraded after being out of the country for three months, at which point he was not earning enough to sponsor his wife's visa and they revoked her visa. So he now has to got back on his own for six months to pick up his rights again, and earn enough to qualify once more to sponsor her visa.
If LEAVE wins and Gove becomes PM and still hasn't invoked Article whatever within 1-2 years, then...is the vote being respected - because a LEAVER is PM - or ignored - because we haven't given notice of departure?
"t is much the same with a number of my friends. They object to immigrants in principle for pushing up house prices and taking jobs, yet will approve of all the individual immigrants that they meet."
Nothing odd about that, Doc. It is perfectly respectable position to disagree with the process of large scale immigration, yet be more than happy with individual immigrants. Personally I think increasing the population of the country by the size of a medium city each year is a very bad idea, but I spent some time this afternoon writing a letter of recommendation for a business set up by an immigrant from Eastern Europe and his wife.
The people and the process are not the same.
The existing treaties are in force until the withdrawal agreement is enacted.
There is no 3rd door
You would add 5 years to my sentence.
"No, m'lud, my client couldn't have robbed that bank at the time alleged because he was busy robbing a much more lucrative jeweller's instead."
'Peter Lilley objects to human rights being part of trade deals which is something EU trade negotiators insist on '
The example he gave was Canada who have objected to it being included,why would a country like Canada want the EU sticking its nose in their justice system.
Bet the EU have not made the same requirement with the USA trade deal.
'Oh dear, when will people learn....if you are in a position where you have to show neutrality, you are better reserving social media for cat pics.'
http://order-order.com/2016/06/07/key-electoral-commission-expenses-fraud-staffer-ranted-against-tories/
Has she been fired ?
2. Direct Democracy – you call the shots.
6. Sack me if I fail you – I will adhere to the Powers of Recall.
Oops.
You really are a nasty piece of work
One can only be convicted of the crime for which one is charged. So convincing the jury that one could not have committed the crime because one was committing another elsewhere at the time would guarantee a verdict of not guilty and you would walk away without a stain on your character.
Should the Plod then try and prosecute you for the offence you have admitted they would have to have some real evidence as your admission at a previous hearing would have to be kept from the jury. You could even do a reverse and claim that you couldn't have robbed the jewellers because you were robbing the bank at the time (an offence for which you have already been acquitted and so cannot be tried again).
A. P. Herbert should have written a story about such legal nonsense.
Then I got a bit glum when I realised that if LEAVE won, nobody would be getting a bonus next year...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3628876/BBC-mocked-article-offensive-England-fan-costumes.html
@JoeWatts_: @DanHannanMEP says if it's a very tight win for #Leave there will have to be a middle way found between #Remain and full #Brexit
Asylum seekers and Family joiners are 30-40k each.
260,000 or so are workers, of which 100,000 are granted high skilled visas.
It seems fairly probable that if Remain win, the 160,000 workers who are not classified as highly skilled will become the focus of further reductions.
Most non-EU arrivals come from China, India and the USA these days.
People who said which way they intended to vote were distributed like this:
leaving EU would mean more immigration: Remain 7%, Leave 1%
leaving EU would have no effect on immigration: Remain 47%, Leave 9%
leaving EU would mean less immigration: Remain 33%, Leave 87%
don't know: Remain 13%, Leave 3%
So clearly almost everyone who intends to vote Leave thinks leaving will reduce immigration.
But the majority of those who intend to vote Remain think leaving will either increase immigration or have no effect on it.
I just wonder whether the Remain campaign is going to take people for such morons that it will try to win over intending Leave voters by urging them to believe that leaving wouldn't actually reduce immigration at all. I wouldn't put it past them. But they would be underestimating people's intelligence, rare though that is for politicians of any stripe.
"...Yet it is an indictment that the LEAVE campaign declines to spell out its vision of a post-EU future, largely because it cannot agree with it....The House of Commons will not be violating the will of the British people in preserving membership of the single market if Brexit campaigners refuse to be straight with the voters about the alternative..."
I also need to point out that I have in previous posts advocated an Artice 50 invocation immediately after the LEAVE vote, on the grounds that a) the country cannot afford confusion, b) ease of administation, and c) otherwise it's just f***ing around.