As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
Try a report that isn't incredibly dodgy based on a Labour press release with their ludicrous spin and that isn't nearly a year out of date.
The last I heard, it was 18 billion over budget and that was January. Came from parliament, not labour party. I'll try and find the report tomorrow for you.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
So Algeria, Albania, Chile, South Korea and loads more have free trade agreements with the EU but we would be denied one?
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
Not for the first time, I think you need to calm down.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
Try a report that isn't incredibly dodgy based on a Labour press release with their ludicrous spin and that isn't nearly a year out of date.
I actually quite like the idea of UC. But it shows that IDS is pretty incompetent at implementation, amongst many other flaws.
Or that rather than sticking to artificial deadlines and cause long term havoc IDS would prefer to take the time to make sure implementation is done right.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Sorry I didn't realise you lived in one of those ex-mining villages that were full of jobs. My bad.
You're obviously a bit dopey and I need to have my bitty before bed, but all I'm saying is this:
Pit closures cost jobs, and we suffered. Of course we did, I had family who worked for the NCB. But economies and circumstances change.
Gordon Brown (and I have no doubt he embarked on it with good intentions) decided the way to deal with generational poverty was to design a convoluted benefit system which eventually deterred people from working.
IDS (and lots of other people) saw the system had become counter-productive abs set out to tackle it. He may not have entirely succeeded but for someone who was an abject leader and who could've slunk away from politics in humiliation, I at least give him credit for trying to tackle a complex issue.
By the way. I love where I live and wouldn't move. I'm in London tomorrow morning. The thought of living there would make me physicallu sick.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
Try a report that isn't incredibly dodgy based on a Labour press release with their ludicrous spin and that isn't nearly a year out of date.
Are you going to furnish us with such a report. Any moment now we'll also have a paean to Chris Grayling and all his wondrous works at the Justice Department too.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Cuckoo
You'd know all about generational poverty in Scotland.
I've been to Glasgow..fuck me, my area is like the Bellagio in comparison.
Yes I know Glasgow has very poor areas but I also know that nothing IDS has done has helped that. If they made even a fraction of the effort they spend chasing people on benefits on tax dodgers they would no worries. Chasing those at the bottom in isolation is not devotion.
PS many areas of Glasgow are extremely rich as well.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
So Algeria, Albania, Chile, South Korea and loads more have free trade agreements with the EU but we would be denied one?
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
I'm not scaremongering. I'm saying that while you are probably right I don't trust the French and so we can't guarantee it. In an ideal world you'd be right, but then in an ideal world the EU would be lot better anyway.
But with only 175 000 on UC compared to the old system of 7 million claiments, surely any changes in the valleys in terms of behaviour cannot be due to UC? I thought the pilots were in NW England.
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
The austerity of the EZ has been harsh in many ways, but it has been much better for exporters than our own "march of the makers".
People are very keen to draw attention to US companies' profits which are taxed elsewhere, but what happens with the 700,000 cars the Germans sell here?
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
The most popular politician in the country campaigns for Brexit... What a disaster say the in spin
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
So say the headlines
And as he is the most popular politician in the country, that will probably be enough for the overwhelming number of people who aren't really interested in politics
You only have to see how many times Scott P has tried to make it seem bad news for Leave to know its a major plus for them
He is the most popular politician in the country because he carefully avoided doing anything political. Now he has: he sort of, kind of wants to leave the EU, but maybe not if things change. Let's see how popular that makes him.
But with only 175 000 on UC compared to the old system of 7 million claiments, surely any changes in the valleys in terms of behaviour cannot be due to UC? I thought the pilots were in NW England.
Presumably you think the reason for there being far fewer people unemployed is nothing to do with there being more jobs, either?
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Sorry I didn't realise you lived in one of those ex-mining villages that were full of jobs. My bad.
You're obviously a bit dopey and I need to have my bitty before bed, but all I'm saying is this:
Pit closures cost jobs, and we suffered. Of course we did, I had family who worked for the NCB. But economies and circumstances change.
Gordon Brown (and I have no doubt he embarked on it with good intentions) decided the way to deal with generational poverty was to design a convoluted benefit system which eventually deterred people from working.
IDS (and lots of other people) saw the system had become counter-productive abs set out to tackle it. He may not have entirely succeeded but for someone who was an abject leader and who could've slunk away from politics in humiliation, I at least give him credit for trying to tackle a complex issue.
By the way. I love where I live and wouldn't move. I'm in London tomorrow morning. The thought of living there would make me physicallu sick.
Why..its just a series of villages connected by the underground. I'm from Aberystwyth and my family still live there. Thats much scarier on a Friday night believe me.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Not so. We are signatories independently of our membership of the EU. Each state is a separate signatory and the EU itself signed separately as well.
Yes, but we are signatories in our capacity as EU members.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Cuckoo
You'd know all about generational poverty in Scotland.
I've been to Glasgow..fuck me, my area is like the Bellagio in comparison.
Yes I know Glasgow has very poor areas but I also know that nothing IDS has done has helped that. If they made even a fraction of the effort they spend chasing people on benefits on tax dodgers they would no worries. Chasing those at the bottom in isolation is not devotion.
PS many areas of Glasgow are extremely rich as well.
IDS isn't part of the Scottish government which has been in power longer than the British government. Maybe if the Scottish government had made even a fraction of the effort the spend on constitutional matters on improving the economy they would have no worries.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
If I remember correctly, there was a survey of US people during the peak of US-Japan competition in the 90's. The survey asked if they would be OK with Japanese GDP falling by 10%, if the cost was US GDP falling by 5%. A majority said yes.
Which is insane.
Trade wars are like nuclear wars: nobody wins. If country X imposes tariffs on our goods, then it makes hem more expensive and fewer are bought, causing unemployment in our country. If we in turn impose tariffs on their goods in revenge, that makes their goods more expensive, forcing us to choose inferior goods as replacement. This is not a victory for either side. The "game of poker" you envisage is the equivalent of you cutting off your own foot, cutting off two of county X's feet, and calling it a victory. It isn't.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Cuckoo
You'd know all about generational poverty in Scotland.
I've been to Glasgow..fuck me, my area is like the Bellagio in comparison.
Yes I know Glasgow has very poor areas but I also know that nothing IDS has done has helped that. If they made even a fraction of the effort they spend chasing people on benefits on tax dodgers they would no worries. Chasing those at the bottom in isolation is not devotion.
PS many areas of Glasgow are extremely rich as well.
No, I agree. We had some nasty experiences over my Dad's Alzheimers with my mother being interrogated to get benefits when my Dad clearly needed 24-hr care. That wasn't pretty.
But areas of Scotland, like round here, we're badly let down by longterm Labour MPS who just took their votes for granted. I applaud the SNP on routing them at GE2015. Sadly, here the alternative is Plaid, and I dont think they are a serious party.
On topic, I notice that Outers are not so scornful now. But I think the valueof the endorsement may have been somewhat undermined by the apparent indecision.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
So Algeria, Albania, Chile, South Korea and loads more have free trade agreements with the EU but we would be denied one?
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
I'm not scaremongering. I'm saying that while you are probably right I don't trust the French and so we can't guarantee it. In an ideal world you'd be right, but then in an ideal world the EU would be lot better anyway.
I don't trust anyone, least of all our own politicians, but at least I get the chance to vote them out.
Thanks for the debate though, genuinely enjoyed it.
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
The austerity of the EZ has been harsh in many ways, but it has been much better for exporters than our own "march of the makers".
People are very keen to draw attention to US companies' profits which are taxed elsewhere, but what happens with the 700,000 cars the Germans sell here?
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
Amazon legally dodge tax by basing their operations in Luxembourg and taking advantage of EU rules.
It seems to be all about civil war in the Tory Party. I'm not at all sure that Boris has brought anything other than cynicism to the leave campaign. Tories trade unionists Labour Scots Nats Lib Dems are all joining forces to ridicule the self seeking Leavers in the Tory Party
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
You sound odious.
Yeah well your're not the first person on here called Sean to be a rational human being.
The most popular politician in the country campaigns for Brexit... What a disaster say the in spin
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
So say the headlines
And as he is the most popular politician in the country, that will probably be enough for the overwhelming number of people who aren't really interested in politics
You only have to see how many times Scott P has tried to make it seem bad news for Leave to know its a major plus for them
He is the most popular politician in the country because he carefully avoided doing anything political. Now he has: he sort of, kind of wants to leave the EU, but maybe not if things change. Let's see how popular that makes him.
It's good news for people who want out of the EU that he has done what he has done today, it's as simple as that
1) Maybe 2) Corbyn isn't immortal (politically or otherwise)
I'm constantly staggered by how little credence many people on here give to Corbo's poor ratings. And even more so by the comfort they seek by the idea that he won't be around forever.
In the meantime, the Labour party is dying, and, after the boundaries are evened up, the path to No. 10 for anyone other than Cons is simply too difficult.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
So Algeria, Albania, Chile, South Korea and loads more have free trade agreements with the EU but we would be denied one?
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
I'm not scaremongering. I'm saying that while you are probably right I don't trust the French and so we can't guarantee it. In an ideal world you'd be right, but then in an ideal world the EU would be lot better anyway.
I don't trust anyone, least of all our own politicians, but at least I get the chance to vote them out.
Thanks for the debate though, genuinely enjoyed it.
We do. We don't get to vote out a French government that starts a trade war with us though. Glad you enjoyed it.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Not so. We are signatories independently of our membership of the EU. Each state is a separate signatory and the EU itself signed separately as well.
Yes, but we are signatories in our capacity as EU members.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
It seems to be all about civil war in the Tory Party. I'm not at all sure that Boris has brought anything other than cynicism to the leave campaign. Tories trade unionists Labour Scots Nats Lib Dems are all joining forces to ridicule the self seeking Leavers in the Tory Party
I had a conversation with the very own Rogerdamus in my own family this weekend. Ex civil servant europhile who couldnt be much more out of line with public opinion on most issues; she had no real arguments, thinks the Tories are crap, thought Brown would win a Maj in 2010, thought Miliband would in in 2015. She is convinced Remain will win a thumping majority. For me, there is no greater indication that Leave could do it.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
Poor sod, having to listen to Sturgeon witter on for an hour without being able to a word in edge ways. I, like most people up here, including her supporters, tune her out when she starts up. She never says anything important anyway, her legal training stops her.
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
The austerity of the EZ has been harsh in many ways, but it has been much better for exporters than our own "march of the makers".
People are very keen to draw attention to US companies' profits which are taxed elsewhere, but what happens with the 700,000 cars the Germans sell here?
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
Amazon legally dodge tax by basing their operations in Luxembourg and taking advantage of EU rules.
Yes, and much attention is drawn to it.
How much is drawn to BMW, Mercedes etc selling 700,000 cars in the UK and paying zero (I assume) corporation tax?
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Not so. We are signatories independently of our membership of the EU. Each state is a separate signatory and the EU itself signed separately as well.
Yes, but we are signatories in our capacity as EU members.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Not so. We are signatories independently of our membership of the EU. Each state is a separate signatory and the EU itself signed separately as well.
Yes, but we are signatories in our capacity as EU members.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
At the very least it's ambiguous what the status of a country would be after withdrawal from the EU and in practice would depend entirely on the political will of the team negotiating the exit.
Surely a single market requires a single set of rules equally applied?
No. Why should it? You don't have the same VAT rates or the
If you are saying that different rules should be applied in different parts of the market, that is quite distant from a single market. It is of course reasonable to argue that a single market is not a good idea.
No. It's what we have now. I can set up a bookselling business here and sell to French, Italian and German readers and others across the EU. I can do that because of the single market. Whether I choose to start work at 6 am or 10 am is up to me. The level of tax I pay is dependant on where my business is located. The price at which I sell does not have to be the same as every other bookseller in the market. But it is still a single market.
What the EU hierarchy want is not a single market where lots of different entities compete. They want one market where everything is the same, where competition within it is largely eliminated. Hence the talk by the Germans about "unfair" tax competition by the Irish over corporation tax, for instance.
The removal of non-tarriff barriers in services has been one of the longstanding goals of the single market, and these are always contentious. Take animal husbandry rules for bacon for example. Is this a non-tarriff barrier or a legitimate British concern?
Issues relating to services including financial services are similar, and one reason why we should remain where our voice can be heard.
If the EZ can impose its rules over our objections, then how much easier when we are outside the EU?
Yes - that is why this is a very difficult choice. But if the eurozone can impose rules on us over our objections even when we are members, what's the point of membership?
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
Mr Wilson closed more mines than Mrs Thatcher.
And those who lost jobs got new ones and communities did not shrivel.
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
The austerity of the EZ has been harsh in many ways, but it has been much better for exporters than our own "march of the makers".
People are very keen to draw attention to US companies' profits which are taxed elsewhere, but what happens with the 700,000 cars the Germans sell here?
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
Amazon legally dodge tax by basing their operations in Luxembourg and taking advantage of EU rules.
Yes, and much attention is drawn to it.
How much is drawn to BMW, Mercedes etc selling 700,000 cars in the UK and paying zero (I assume) corporation tax?
The whole corporation tax argument is so tedious, short-sighted and hyperbolic. It is as if people cannot understand the internet, a globalised world and competitive tax rates - oh, and the notion that we might export goods/services too.
Niall Ferguson comes out against Brexit in his ST column today 'Brexit now and we will only have to return to save a disintegrating Europe'
It's a quaint line, isn't it? Dear Lord Bramall argued much the same recently i.e. we can't leave because those poor Europeans won't know what to do without us.
Personally I think we are all grown up countries now, and we do not have a duty of care for our European neighbours.
Niall Ferguson comes out against Brexit in his ST column today 'Brexit now and we will only have to return to save a disintegrating Europe'
It's a quaint line, isn't it? Dear Lord Bramall argued much the same recently i.e. we can't leave because those poor Europeans won't know what to do without us.
Personally I think we are all grown up countries now, and we do not have a duty of care for our European neighbours.
Similarly patronising line in the Guardian - titled something like 'how to argue with a Brexiter - and win'. Vacuous arguments like 'what about the Irish' - we're their biggest market'.
1) Maybe 2) Corbyn isn't immortal (politically or otherwise)
I'm constantly staggered by how little credence many people on here give to Corbo's poor ratings. And even more so by the comfort they seek by the idea that he won't be around forever.
In the meantime, the Labour party is dying, and, after the boundaries are evened up, the path to No. 10 for anyone other than Cons is simply too difficult.
@ShippersUnbound: Boris's article makes clear he still wants to have his cake and eat it - a no vote to get concessions. It is au revoir to Brussels not adieu
I have just managed to lose all the respect for Boris Johnson that I'd just gained...
Out is out.
Don't. He is not saying what the Remain camp are trying to claim. Read the piece. He wants a better deal. But he believes that deal is predicated on us leaving, not on us trying to get them to get back round the table again so we will stay.
The key passage which shows this clearly is this:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Ignore the frightened Europhiles. They are just trying to disarm what they see as their greatest threat.
2) It reads like an article written by a commentator, not a potential leader.
Do you think? I enjoy BoJo's sentiments but don't often finish his posts (either on fb or in newspapers) because they go on a bit. Turgid is pretty usual for him...
I agree with you on the second comment - but then so did Cameron's articles published in various papers when in opposition; Miliband's too. Newspaper articles sound like they were written by a journalist shocker!
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Not so. We are signatories independently of our membership of the EU. Each state is a separate signatory and the EU itself signed separately as well.
Yes, but we are signatories in our capacity as EU members.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
Since we signed in our own right our position in the treaty is governed by the 1969 Vienna Convention on Treaties. This means that irrespective of whatever other treaties we might withdraw from, as long as we do not choose to withdraw from the EEA traty we are still members. The requirement under the EEA treaty is that we either members of the EU or EFTA. If we leave one but do not join the other then we are in breach of our treaty obligations but as long as we transfer from the EU to EFTA we remain part of the EEA.
If the EU had signed on our behalf - bearing in mind they did sign in their own right - and we had not signed ourselves then you would have been correct. As it is we remain members of the EEA as long as we are in either the EU or EFTA.
1) Maybe 2) Corbyn isn't immortal (politically or otherwise)
I'm constantly staggered by how little credence many people on here give to Corbo's poor ratings. And even more so by the comfort they seek by the idea that he won't be around forever.
In the meantime, the Labour party is dying, and, after the boundaries are evened up, the path to No. 10 for anyone other than Cons is simply too difficult.
God, such complacency.
Reality often looks like complacency when it is not what you want to hear...
Within the framework of the provisions of this Agreement, there shall be no restrictions between the Contracting Parties on the movement of capital belonging to persons resident in EC Member States or EFTA State
The three EFTA states are defined on page 7. How on earth would the treaty suddenly rewrite itself so that we spontaneously moved from one category to the other?
Obviously, therefore, we'd need to negotiate a variant of the treaty, or a new treaty, with the 30 other signatories. We couldn't simply pop up and say 'Hi, We're an EFTA state now'
@steverichards14: Boris Tel column shows he is not for 'out'. Instead he argues the rest of the EU will 'listen' if UK votes 'out'.. An unconvincing Third Way
The most prominent outer, is not an outer...
Is Cameron the luckiest PM in history?
No - he's showing up Cameron's useless deal by saying that he would have been for In had Cameron done a better job. He's not the only one who thinks that.
And the EU has form for making countries vote again if they give the "wrong" answer. The EU is pretty quick about reversing gear when it suits them, whatever they may have said beforehand.
As for the EMU rule book changes, these are - in effect - a disguised attempt to squeeze us into the euro in time. Once we're subject to all the rules, the arguments against going the whole way will become harder and harder to resist. A vote for Remain will inevitably mean a vote for full political and economic integration. We are being salami sliced into it.
Within the framework of the provisions of this Agreement, there shall be no restrictions between the Contracting Parties on the movement of capital belonging to persons resident in EC Member States or EFTA State
The three EFTA states are defined on page 7. How on earth would the treaty suddenly rewrite itself so that we spontaneously moved from one category to the other?
The EC member states are explicitly listed in the agreement and in the text 'EC Member States' is shorthand for those states. It is not at all clear that a state which subsequently ceases to be a member state is therefore excluded from the agreement. In fact, it must be the case that all the parties would need to sign an amendment to say that country X was no longer included.
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
Nobody knows what a LEAVE vote means, agreed, Mr Observer. And nobody has the least idea what a REMAIN vote means either.
The whole thing is a waste of time. Its only purpose was and is to prevent the Tory Party from splitting. I think the Tories ought to foot the bill. How much is it costing us taxpayers?
@JananGanesh: Outers now having to pretend that Boris's line is exactly what they were hoping for.
See isam's posts this evening...
Haha
I'm just responding to your desperate spinning. If you honestly think it's bad news for the LEAVE campaign that's down to you and the people whose tweets you copy and paste. I can take or leave Boris, but everyone I know who isn't interested in politics thinks he is great, and that'll do for me
@steverichards14: Boris Tel column shows he is not for 'out'. Instead he argues the rest of the EU will 'listen' if UK votes 'out'.. An unconvincing Third Way
The most prominent outer, is not an outer...
Is Cameron the luckiest PM in history?
No - he's showing up Cameron's useless deal by saying that he would have been for In had Cameron done a better job. He's not the only one who thinks that.
And the EU has form for making countries vote again if they give the "wrong" answer. The EU is pretty quick about reversing gear when it suits them, whatever they may have said beforehand.
As for the EMU rule book changes, these are - in effect - a disguised attempt to squeeze us into the euro in time. Once we're subject to all the rules, the arguments against going the whole way will become harder and harder to resist. A vote for Remain will inevitably mean a vote for full political and economic integration. We are being salami sliced into it.
The EU cannot make the UK vote again. In the event of an Out, the UK would invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. Suggesting anything else is disingenuous at best.
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
The austerity of the EZ has been harsh in many ways, but it has been much better for exporters than our own "march of the makers".
People are very keen to draw attention to US companies' profits which are taxed elsewhere, but what happens with the 700,000 cars the Germans sell here?
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
Amazon legally dodge tax by basing their operations in Luxembourg and taking advantage of EU rules.
As for the EMU rule book changes, these are - in effect - a disguised attempt to squeeze us into the euro in time. Once we're subject to all the rules, the arguments against going the whole way will become harder and harder to resist. A vote for Remain will inevitably mean a vote for full political and economic integration. We are being salami sliced into it.
yes yes yes
In a few years, 'undecideds' like Richard N will be telling us that euro membership, while not ideal, is our only option. Just like they tried to 15 years ago.
The whole corporation tax argument is so tedious, short-sighted and hyperbolic. It is as if people cannot understand the internet, a globalised world and competitive tax rates - oh, and the notion that we might export goods/services too.
Not in this context.
We have campaigns designed to challenge US corporations' tax arrangements on the basis of goods sold in the UK.
Where are the corresponding campaigns about EU corporations?
The reason why this matters is Germany's £30+bn trade profit from Britain for starters.
At least we get the jobs with Starbucks - what do Mercedes give to the UK in return for all our purchases and entry into our market?
We are a very good customer. How have we reached a situation where we part with fortunes, yet the Prime Minister is batted off at EU conferences as though our money (their profit) is an irrelevance?
@iainmartin1: Only a complete loon would think that after Brexit there wouldn't be several years of talks and establishment of a new relationship.
Iain Martin is clearly so thick he doesn't realise the talks and establishment of a new relationship come before Brexit not after. That is what Article 50 is all about.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
So Algeria, Albania, Chile, South Korea and loads more have free trade agreements with the EU but we would be denied one?
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
I'm not scaremongering. I'm saying that while you are probably right I don't trust the French and so we can't guarantee it. In an ideal world you'd be right, but then in an ideal world the EU would be lot better anyway.
I don't trust anyone, least of all our own politicians, but at least I get the chance to vote them out.
Thanks for the debate though, genuinely enjoyed it.
We do. We don't get to vote out a French government that starts a trade war with us though. Glad you enjoyed it.
One-sixth of people who were born in Ireland now live outside the country. It's over 25% for those in their 20s. The female population aged between 20 and 24 has decreased by 34% since 2009.
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
Nobody knows what a LEAVE vote means, agreed, Mr Observer. And nobody has the least idea what a REMAIN vote means either.
The whole thing is a waste of time. Its only purpose was and is to prevent the Tory Party from splitting. I think the Tories ought to foot the bill. How much is it costing us taxpayers?
Maybe if it hadn't been a manifesto commitment that a majority of Parliament was elected on.
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
Nobody knows what a LEAVE vote means, agreed, Mr Observer. And nobody has the least idea what a REMAIN vote means either.
The whole thing is a waste of time. Its only purpose was and is to prevent the Tory Party from splitting. I think the Tories ought to foot the bill. How much is it costing us taxpayers?
Whatever it's purpose, settling the issue would seem to be an endeavour worthy of its cost. Given how it is predicted to be close, it may be Tories most riled up by the issue but it is not an issue of concern only to them, so suggesting they should foot the bill is simply absurd, even if we accepted the proposition people should only have to foot the bill for things they are interested in.
1) Maybe 2) Corbyn isn't immortal (politically or otherwise)
I'm constantly staggered by how little credence many people on here give to Corbo's poor ratings. And even more so by the comfort they seek by the idea that he won't be around forever.
In the meantime, the Labour party is dying, and, after the boundaries are evened up, the path to No. 10 for anyone other than Cons is simply too difficult.
God, such complacency.
Reality often looks like complacency when it is not what you want to hear...
There's literally nothing I have ever wanted less, politically, than a Corbyn government. I joined the Conservative Party specifically to help prevent it. But I see that Conservative members such as yourself don't take the danger seriously. To be clear it's very unlikely but it's not impossible and in my view would be catastrophic.
As to Corbyn resigning or being replaced, that could happen at any time.
Also, whatever else its problems, Labour isn't dying. It has a large, young membership in stark contrast with the Conservatives.
As for the EMU rule book changes, these are - in effect - a disguised attempt to squeeze us into the euro in time. Once we're subject to all the rules, the arguments against going the whole way will become harder and harder to resist. A vote for Remain will inevitably mean a vote for full political and economic integration. We are being salami sliced into it.
yes yes yes
In a few years, 'undecideds' like Richard N will be telling us that euro membership, while not ideal, is our only option. Just like they tried to 15 years ago.
Indeed.
The argument will be - "if the UK joins the EZ it will have 6% on the votes whereas it has no voice now and is being outvoted every time by the EZ bloc".
The most popular politician in the country campaigns for Brexit... What a disaster say the in spin
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
So say the headlines
And as he is the most popular politician in the country, that will probably be enough for the overwhelming number of people who aren't really interested in politics
You only have to see how many times Scott P has tried to make it seem bad news for Leave to know its a major plus for them
He is the most popular politician in the country because he carefully avoided doing anything political. Now he has: he sort of, kind of wants to leave the EU, but maybe not if things change. Let's see how popular that makes him.
It's good news for people who want out of the EU that he has done what he has done today, it's as simple as that
Obviously Boris supporting Leave is excellent news for them. It requires very tortured thinking to claim otherwise. The news cycle is dominated by the fact that the country's most popular politician supports Leave, not the minutiae of his article.
Comments
Get real and stop the only tactic Remainers have, scaremongering
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Sorry I didn't realise you lived in one of those ex-mining villages that were full of jobs. My bad.
You're obviously a bit dopey and I need to have my bitty before bed, but all I'm saying is this:
Pit closures cost jobs, and we suffered. Of course we did, I had family who worked for the NCB. But economies and circumstances change.
Gordon Brown (and I have no doubt he embarked on it with good intentions) decided the way to deal with generational poverty was to design a convoluted benefit system which eventually deterred people from working.
IDS (and lots of other people) saw the system had become counter-productive abs set out to tackle it. He may not have entirely succeeded but for someone who was an abject leader and who could've slunk away from politics in humiliation, I at least give him credit for trying to tackle a complex issue.
By the way. I love where I live and wouldn't move. I'm in London tomorrow morning. The thought of living there would make me physicallu sick.
I look forward to Nige and Gorgeous George explaining that one for the next 4 months.
If they made even a fraction of the effort they spend chasing people on benefits on tax dodgers they would no worries. Chasing those at the bottom in isolation is not devotion.
PS many areas of Glasgow are extremely rich as well.
Yep, it does. Johnson is the little boy saying 'Kejseren har jo ikke noget tøj på'
But with only 175 000 on UC compared to the old system of 7 million claiments, surely any changes in the valleys in terms of behaviour cannot be due to UC? I thought the pilots were in NW England.
How much tax do they pay? Also, unlike Starbucks etc - how many of the German car manufacturers' jobs are based here?
Is tax campaigning essentially anti-American, but blind-eyed with the EU?
You're obviously a bit dopey and I need to have my bitty before bed, but all I'm saying is this:
Pit closures cost jobs, and we suffered. Of course we did, I had family who worked for the NCB. But economies and circumstances change.
Gordon Brown (and I have no doubt he embarked on it with good intentions) decided the way to deal with generational poverty was to design a convoluted benefit system which eventually deterred people from working.
IDS (and lots of other people) saw the system had become counter-productive abs set out to tackle it. He may not have entirely succeeded but for someone who was an abject leader and who could've slunk away from politics in humiliation, I at least give him credit for trying to tackle a complex issue.
By the way. I love where I live and wouldn't move. I'm in London tomorrow morning. The thought of living there would make me physicallu sick.
Why..its just a series of villages connected by the underground. I'm from Aberystwyth and my family still live there. Thats much scarier on a Friday night believe me.
For example:
- See pages 4 and 5: list of contracting parties. It's no coincidence that the AND separates EU states from the EFTA states
- .. because (see Article 2 page 7);
the term "EFTA States" means the Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Kingdom of Norway;
Obviously, we wouldn't automatically become an 'EFTA state' on leaving the EU, this treaty would have to be amended to include us as such.
http://www.efta.int/media/documents/legal-texts/eea/the-eea-agreement/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf
Which is insane.
Trade wars are like nuclear wars: nobody wins. If country X imposes tariffs on our goods, then it makes hem more expensive and fewer are bought, causing unemployment in our country. If we in turn impose tariffs on their goods in revenge, that makes their goods more expensive, forcing us to choose inferior goods as replacement. This is not a victory for either side. The "game of poker" you envisage is the equivalent of you cutting off your own foot, cutting off two of county X's feet, and calling it a victory. It isn't.
2) Corbyn isn't immortal (politically or otherwise)
But areas of Scotland, like round here, we're badly let down by longterm Labour MPS who just took their votes for granted. I applaud the SNP on routing them at GE2015. Sadly, here the alternative is Plaid, and I dont think they are a serious party.
See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/boris-johnson-joins-leave-campaign/32458#sthash.oUhf4n6x.dpuf
On topic, I notice that Outers are not so scornful now. But I think the valueof the endorsement may have been somewhat undermined by the apparent indecision.
Thanks for the debate though, genuinely enjoyed it.
In the meantime, the Labour party is dying, and, after the boundaries are evened up, the path to No. 10 for anyone other than Cons is simply too difficult.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/regulars/article1669873.ece
How much is drawn to BMW, Mercedes etc selling 700,000 cars in the UK and paying zero (I assume) corporation tax?
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-brits-have-freed-the-eu-from-the-yoke-of-political-union-foreign-press-reactions-to-uk-eu-deal/
See isam's posts this evening...
http://www.efta.int/sites/default/files/documents/legal-texts/eea-enlargement/2014/Agreement+Annexes-en.pdf
At the very least it's ambiguous what the status of a country would be after withdrawal from the EU and in practice would depend entirely on the political will of the team negotiating the exit.
So trade would not cease?
It's a quaint line, isn't it? Dear Lord Bramall argued much the same recently i.e. we can't leave because those poor Europeans won't know what to do without us.
Personally I think we are all grown up countries now, and we do not have a duty of care for our European neighbours.
1) It's uncharacteristically turgid.
2) It reads like an article written by a commentator, not a potential leader.
'Boris is a copper bottomed, double dealing hypocritical little shit. The press will destroy him'
http://tinyurl.com/zqmwtuo
Now, about that dignified, good-natured, non-divisive EU debate that the Cons will be having..
The key passage which shows this clearly is this:
"If the “Leave” side wins, it will indeed be necessary to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed. But why should that be impossible? We have become so used to Nanny in Brussels that we have become infantilised, incapable of imagining an independent future. We used to run the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and with a much smaller domestic population and a relatively tiny Civil Service. Are we really unable to do trade deals? We will have at least two years in which the existing treaties will be in force."
Ignore the frightened Europhiles. They are just trying to disarm what they see as their greatest threat.
I agree with you on the second comment - but then so did Cameron's articles published in various papers when in opposition; Miliband's too. Newspaper articles sound like they were written by a journalist shocker!
correct
Mr Wilson closed more mines than Mrs Thatcher.
Yes but don't let quality over quantity or investment over spite damage your arguement.
Since we signed in our own right our position in the treaty is governed by the 1969 Vienna Convention on Treaties. This means that irrespective of whatever other treaties we might withdraw from, as long as we do not choose to withdraw from the EEA traty we are still members. The requirement under the EEA treaty is that we either members of the EU or EFTA. If we leave one but do not join the other then we are in breach of our treaty obligations but as long as we transfer from the EU to EFTA we remain part of the EEA.
If the EU had signed on our behalf - bearing in mind they did sign in their own right - and we had not signed ourselves then you would have been correct. As it is we remain members of the EEA as long as we are in either the EU or EFTA.
https://twitter.com/SaraMurray/status/701420194300882945
As you see there is plenty of things that can go wrong, if Trump didn't had a large lead in the polls I would be worried.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-21/cameron-unleashes-project-fear-uk-military-leaders-warn-against-brexit-threat-nation
Maybe my thought of defence not playing much part over the next 4 months is mistaken. Huge risks for both sides of the debate if you ask me.
Consider article 40:
Within the framework of the provisions of this Agreement, there shall be no restrictions between the Contracting Parties on the movement of capital belonging to persons resident in EC Member States or EFTA State
The three EFTA states are defined on page 7. How on earth would the treaty suddenly rewrite itself so that we spontaneously moved from one category to the other?
Obviously, therefore, we'd need to negotiate a variant of the treaty, or a new treaty, with the 30 other signatories. We couldn't simply pop up and say 'Hi, We're an EFTA state now'
And the EU has form for making countries vote again if they give the "wrong" answer. The EU is pretty quick about reversing gear when it suits them, whatever they may have said beforehand.
As for the EMU rule book changes, these are - in effect - a disguised attempt to squeeze us into the euro in time. Once we're subject to all the rules, the arguments against going the whole way will become harder and harder to resist. A vote for Remain will inevitably mean a vote for full political and economic integration. We are being salami sliced into it.
The whole thing is a waste of time. Its only purpose was and is to prevent the Tory Party from splitting. I think the Tories ought to foot the bill. How much is it costing us taxpayers?
I'm just responding to your desperate spinning. If you honestly think it's bad news for the LEAVE campaign that's down to you and the people whose tweets you copy and paste. I can take or leave Boris, but everyone I know who isn't interested in politics thinks he is great, and that'll do for me
Stodge posted some good advice earlier on this subject.
yes yes yes
In a few years, 'undecideds' like Richard N will be telling us that euro membership, while not ideal, is our only option. Just like they tried to 15 years ago.
We have campaigns designed to challenge US corporations' tax arrangements on the basis of goods sold in the UK.
Where are the corresponding campaigns about EU corporations?
The reason why this matters is Germany's £30+bn trade profit from Britain for starters.
At least we get the jobs with Starbucks - what do Mercedes give to the UK in return for all our purchases and entry into our market?
We are a very good customer. How have we reached a situation where we part with fortunes, yet the Prime Minister is batted off at EU conferences as though our money (their profit) is an irrelevance?
In that case, we can only conclude that Scotland WILL NOT have any meaningful independence if it joins the EU.
Yes, and between a couple of dozen of them, they only have one cr*p line.
As to Corbyn resigning or being replaced, that could happen at any time.
Also, whatever else its problems, Labour isn't dying. It has a large, young membership in stark contrast with the Conservatives.
The argument will be - "if the UK joins the EZ it will have 6% on the votes whereas it has no voice now and is being outvoted every time by the EZ bloc".