To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually as contracting parties. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
Good. If everyone on the Leave side agreed with Farage or Galloway then I'd have no doubt and would be backing Remain wholeheartedly. The fact that moderate voices are going for Leave now gives me confidence that we could have a rational Leave rather than one based on hatred.
Yep, it seems a good part of the Tory Out side is focused on looking after the City and is not that concerned about limiting free movement of people. Boris is certainly in that camp, as are a few on here. They could probably get a Brexit deal done pretty quickly. Msybe it wouldn't even end up as a full Brexit. But my guess is that this would not meet with universal approval, to say the least, on the Out side.
Yes, that is correct. If we do get a Leave result, the debate will switch to whether to go for an EEA-style deal or not. Much the same arguments will apply as we are currently seeing, and I expect it will be just as contentious.
The difference is that it would probably be parliament which decides. It could get very messy, because I think a majority of MPs are (probably) likely to want the EEA route, but a lot of Leave voters would have thought they were voting for killing off free movement.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
I don't believe so, no. But this is a grey area, and one that Richard Tyndall has been doing a lot of work on.
Gerard Lyons @DrGerardLyons "3/ Chief Exec of CityUK praised the deal ... I am on the board of CityUK & thought deal far from what City wanted or needed"
Yes, but for the most part the deal has been well received by the City.
What we really need is a heavyweight report by City lawyers on the effect on the City of the three options (Remain, Leave/EEA, Leave/Something else). I expect there will be some such reports over the next couple of months.
There have been loads of such reports already. They ping into my inbox on a daily basis.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
No, we are signatories in our capacity as EU members. The EEA agreement is basically an agreement between the three EEA countries and the EU. We'd have to agree a new treaty with the 30 other countries to join as EEA members.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
With the EU, they'd have to have a rethink given their substantial profit from dealing with us.
Joining efta eea means no substantive change to where we are now. This is no really bad thing, we pull out of all the eu Parliament suff, put Farage out of a job and send him on his way to the Big Brother House and Strictly Come Dancing, and stay in the single market and free movement of labour and continue to implement the EUs regulations. Efta even has its own court to rule over its members, based in Luxembourg.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
Everyone of those "respected public figures" said we would go to hell in a handcart if we didn't join the Euro. Not one of them has a sliver of credibility yet sycophantic idiots like you believe every word they say.
Meeks may well be a very intelligent man, but his sneering elitist attitude to anyone who disagrees with him is shows a crushingly dull spirit with no other outlook on life other than play it safe.
Have any of you Remainers got anything positive to say about the EU or will you just spend the next few months insulting anyone who disagrees with you frighteningly intellectual superior beings?
Gerard Lyons @DrGerardLyons "3/ Chief Exec of CityUK praised the deal ... I am on the board of CityUK & thought deal far from what City wanted or needed"
Yes, but for the most part the deal has been well received by the City.
What we really need is a heavyweight report by City lawyers on the effect on the City of the three options (Remain, Leave/EEA, Leave/Something else). I expect there will be some such reports over the next couple of months.
There have been loads of such reports already. They ping into my inbox on a daily basis.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
At the end of the day referendums are one on the issues not personalities, see Scotland
Gerard Lyons @DrGerardLyons "3/ Chief Exec of CityUK praised the deal ... I am on the board of CityUK & thought deal far from what City wanted or needed"
Yes, but for the most part the deal has been well received by the City.
What we really need is a heavyweight report by City lawyers on the effect on the City of the three options (Remain, Leave/EEA, Leave/Something else). I expect there will be some such reports over the next couple of months.
What the City wants most of all is access to the single market. What they don't want is a load of stupid rules and taxes imposed by countries who either understand nothing about financial markets or are determined to harm the UK's one in the hope that they will get the benefit, without any ability for Britain to stop it. (Oh I forgot: they can ask for a discussion. Fantastic. I expect there will be cartwheels around the City at that.)
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
'If only we all had Hungarian heated swimming pools, earned 20x the aver salary and voted for greenie parties. And thought rural people should pay extra and farming was unnecessary.'
You missed out the million pound apartment in Shoreditch, a salary not driven down by mass immigration, no kids to run the state school lottery & if the NHS is not great loads of money for private treatment
This is what LEAVE looks like. No wonder waverers are repulsed even when they think LEAVE might be right. Roundheads.
Err the Roundheads won didn't they ?
They won. Then a decade later people got sick of them, and they went back to the way things were, apparently for ever
The impact of their victory was much more long lasting than you apparently believe, and greatly informed the political and social developments of the decades to follow. That we did not remain a Republic, the most obvious development, does not discount that - it's not as though that was even the original goal of the civil war.
I think when people quote Boris' favourability rating, they ignore the fact that Boris is not running a department. People outside London have a view of him shaped only by the media.
What does the people of Liverpool think of him ?
This is why Boris will not put himself at the front and centre of the Leave campaign. He's calculated what's best for him politically, now he'll leave it to others to do the heavy lifting in set-piece interviews, debates etc.
..... The Sunday Times Business quotes the city as being releived ar the outcome of the negotiations and satisfied with the safeguards and that 50 of the FTSE100 leaders will be writing an official letter of support for continued membership. ......
Will that include the companies controlled by the Government? Also the ones with very low corporation tax payments etc etc. In the current climate any major company considering entering the political sphere needs to ensure it has a squeaky clean image and a great record in paying tax and delivering customer service. People such as British Gas etc need to stay away.
Go ahead ignore facts. Why am I not surprised at your twisting.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
Yep, I agree with that. The Tory manifesto would be fascinating and could genuinely split the party.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
I don't believe so, no. But this is a grey area, and one that Richard Tyndall has been doing a lot of work on.
One of the advantages for Leave is that they have a whole menu of options for post-Brexit, while Remain has only the substandard deal to offer. Leave offers a lot of options, so if you don't like one they have others on the table.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
only in the short term.
Remain has no more certainty over what it has just signed up to than leave, Paradoxically Leave probably offers more certainty in the medium to long term.
Great to see there will be no Bush Mk III in the White House come next January. Now its time to ensure that there won't be a Clinton there too. Assuming the Republican side comes down to Rubio Trump, what's the best guess for how Cruz's voters would transfer to Rubio and Trump - 60:40 in Rubio's favour?
It will not come down to Rubio v Trump, as Rubio will suspend his campaign three weeks on Tuesday when Trump beats him in Florida. Cruz will likely win Texas, Arkansas and a few other states on Super Tuesday which will be enough to set up a straight contest with Trump lasting until the end of April
That depends on a lot what Kasich does.
By the way, what is Trump's view on health care ? I know he has sound bites against Obamacare but what if "Universal care" is mentioned.
What is Trump's position on Israel ? Same as every other US politician ?
Trump supports healthcare, he doesn't like Obamacare because it favours the drug companies.
Trump has promised to be neutral on Israel-Palestine, has rejected calls to make Jerusalem the capital of Israel and has also said the Israelis are partially to blame for the violence. So no, definitely not like every other US politician. He supports a traditional isolationist/America First realist foreign policy. Be interesting to see who he picks for his foreign policy team, been meeting General Mike Flynn a lot, would be a superb pick. Of course Trump has already cast aspersions on the official story regarding MH17 and Litvinenko, the official stories being obvious nonsense.
Interesting despite Cruz mimicking Trump's rhetoric he has gone full on neocon in his foreign policy picks with Woolsey, Abrams and even suggesting John Bolton as Secretary of State! Scary stuff.
Rubio will be easy to take down with him being a memeber of the gang of eight for amnesty. Plus of course the sinister financial backers behind him.
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
only in the short term.
Remain has no more certainty over what it has just signed up to than leave, Paradoxically Leave probably offers more certainty in the medium to long term.
Quite. the notion the EU is going to stay the same is a completely false one. They are bent on ever closer union.
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
Like Blair Brown then?
Johnson is to the Tories what Prescott once was to New Labour.
So Boris and Gove, quite possibly the next PM and Chancellor come out for leave. I didn't think Tim Montgomery could look any more stupid but I once again underestimated the man. What a fool.
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
Like Blair Brown then?
Johnson is to the Tories what Prescott once was to New Labour.
I don;t think I've ever read a more ridiculous comparison.
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
For once I agree with you. Do you think Gove has ambitions to be leader?
I think that if Remain win we could see Gove as Chancellor, if he fancies it. Mmmm... I'm not sure if he would be any good. Not sure really who would make it as next chancellor.
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
Best I could find! (Well, apart from the Indy, and I drew the line at citing them!)
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
Like Blair Brown then?
Johnson is to the Tories what Prescott once was to New Labour.
I don;t think I've ever read a more ridiculous comparison.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
How about a reciprocal agreement whereby they can trade with us? After all we import £3 billion a year from them than we export, so surely it would be in their interest, no?
Joining efta eea means no substantive change to where we are now. This is no really bad thing, we pull out of all the eu Parliament suff, put Farage out of a job and send him on his way to the Big Brother House and Strictly Come Dancing, and stay in the single market and free movement of labour and continue to implement the EUs regulations. Efta even has its own court to rule over its members, based in Luxembourg.
I'm not suggesting that we join EFTA; I'm suggesting we use their agreements as base documents and then seek to mirror their trade agreements in bi-lateral negotiations with their existing partners.
With the EU we would do that but reject their social policy demands.I'm unconvinced that the EU would seek trade barriers as a price for removing EU social impositions, as they make a big profit from our existing arrangement.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
Oh, dear ! The Tories are at each other already. Citing the BBC ? What has the world come to ?
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
Clearly Melanie has never lived in servitude.
She gives the impression of quite liking Palestinians to be kept in that state.
So Boris and Gove, quite possibly the next PM and Chancellor come out for leave. I didn't think Tim Montgomery could look any more stupid but I once again underestimated the man. What a fool.
Yes, another weird misreading from him. Predicting what's going to happen is not his forte. (He must have one, mustn't he?)
Boiling down to the bold visionaries against the cautious managers.
There are two kinds of people in the world. There are those which, if you gave them a precious vase to carry across the room, would carefully manouvre the vase from one side of the room to the other. And there are those who will get flustered, impatient or bolshy, then drop, throw or kick the vase into a thousand pieces, and then blame it on you. I understand the importance of the latter, but I will usually side with the former.
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
Like Blair Brown then?
Johnson is to the Tories what Prescott once was to New Labour.
I don;t think I've ever read a more ridiculous comparison.
A bit harsh on Prescott perhaps.
Prescott was New Labour’s token uneducated, ignorant pleb; don’t think that applies to Boris.
Say Remain win and Cameron has to give Boris a key Cabinet post so as not to appear petty, presumably we will be back to the Blair/Brown situation of the guys at the top pretending to make nice while all the while scheming against each other, a far cry from the mostly harmonious top team we've had (even considering the Coalition) for some time.
At least with a Leave win they'll end up united again. Eventually.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
LEAVE has many policy variations within it. Starting from Little Englander to just protecting the City [ or, more precisely, giving it an unfair advantage ]
There is nothing unfair proposed.
What's wrong with giving the city an unfair advantage? Isn't it the same as a country lowering corporation tax, for instance?
There is nothing wrong with having a British Prime Minister fighting for a British sector, a profitable one.
The financial sector is not asking for an unfair advantage - or competition, as it is usually known - but not to made subject to eurozone rules when, er, we are not in the eurozone. What the other states want is to stop the city being competitive because it might show up their own failings.
Also note in some cases what this stops is individual countries having stronger rules than those proposed by the EU. So even if you think that, say, your insurers should be subject to X and Y rules (and you want to do this because this gives the public reassurance) if the EU says that only X is permitted, then you cannot do this. In other words, the EU can sometimes stop national governments providing more protection for consumers.
It's the absurdity of the one size fits all mentality and a desire to avoid any sort of competition. It's what happens when you get formulation of rules by bureaucrats who have no instinctive or any sort of understanding of free markets, competition or, indeed, the details of how this sector works at all. And what it also means is that if they make a mistake in regulation, they make it across the entire area. And if that mistake is a vital one the consequences are felt by everyone and are magnified. One size fits all regulation, when it goes wrong - and note that I say when, not if, because it will go wrong or be found wanting at some point - creates - or has the potential for creating - a systemic risk.
In terms of his leadership ambitions, I don't think Boris has done himself any good with his dithering. The contrast with Michael Gove is very marked. Irrespective of which side of the Leave/Remain argument one leans, Boris looks either like someone who can't make a decision, or (worse still) like someone interested primarily on his career.
You don't think the Gove/Johnson partnership could be quite a powerful combination (Gove the brains, Johnson the "front man") then?
Like Blair Brown then?
Johnson is to the Tories what Prescott once was to New Labour.
I don;t think I've ever read a more ridiculous comparison.
A bit harsh on Prescott perhaps.
Prescott was New Labour’s token uneducated, ignorant pleb; don’t think that applies to Boris.
That's a bit harsh on uneducated ignorant plebs...
The fact is nobody really knows what the City would look like after Brexit. Losing the single market would be a big hit to euro denominated business, probably, but there could be offsetting benefits in less aggressively socialist, controlling regulation. And the euro business might come back.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
At the end of the day referendums are one on the issues not personalities, see Scotland
Support for Scottiah Independence started it's late surge in the Polling following Salmond's demolition job on Darling in the second debate.
Who knows what might have been if Salmond hadn't been utter pish in the first debate.
Say Remain win and Cameron has to give Boris a key Cabinet post so as not to appear petty, presumably we will be back to the Blair/Brown situation of the guys at the top pretending to make nice while all the while scheming against each other, a far cry from the mostly harmonious top team we've had (even considering the Coalition) for some time.
At least with a Leave win they'll end up united again. Eventually.
Except Cameron won't be around for much longer after the referendum, so it wouldn't be a long term situation.
There have been loads of such reports already. They ping into my inbox on a daily basis.
Can you point us to any?
You'll find them on this websites: slaughter and May and hogan Lovells are quite interesting for examole. However, they don't give certainty as to next steps because they don't know what they will be. Instead there's a range of options and possibilities.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
Yet more Daily Doddy Drib....
Actually no. Apologies. You are absolutely right here. Moreover I honestly don't think the Tories will split. There may or may not be bad blood. I don't know as I am not in the Tory party. But the attempts so far by the LEAVE Tories to try and maintain a decorous relationship makes me think that they may get through this okay so long as Cameron doesn't do anything else stupid like set the attack dogs on the LEAVE Tories.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
I don't believe so, no. But this is a grey area, and one that Richard Tyndall has been doing a lot of work on.
One of the advantages for Leave is that they have a whole menu of options for post-Brexit, while Remain has only the substandard deal to offer. Leave offers a lot of options, so if you don't like one they have others on the table.
Yes. The EEA / EFTA / NAFTA / just USA / Commonwealth / Empire....... / link with Mars
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No
He
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
Clearly Melanie has never lived in servitude.
I'm sure she hasn't, but since when has colorful expression been allowed to undermine a point?
Edit: Wait, it always has. Although we then criticise people for blandness when they try to avoid it. Morton's Fork right there, end up being dismissed the same way but for different reasons.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
Everyone of those "respected public figures" said we would go to hell in a handcart if we didn't join the Euro. Not one of them has a sliver of credibility yet sycophantic idiots like you believe every word they say.
Meeks may well be a very intelligent man, but his sneering elitist attitude to anyone who disagrees with him is shows a crushingly dull spirit with no other outlook on life other than play it safe.
Have any of you Remainers got anything positive to say about the EU or will you just spend the next few months insulting anyone who disagrees with you frighteningly intellectual superior beings?
Positive parts of the EU: Free market and free trade across Europe. A British passport becomes a European passport and allows you to holiday, move, work or retire to any nation in Europe without going through a visa process first.
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
Best I could find! (Well, apart from the Indy, and I drew the line at citing them!)
City is quoted to be satisfied in the Sunday Times. I have not noticed any howling complaints quoted anywhere. I think itssafe to say the mainstream press have lost any interest they have ever had in facts or issues now. They have what they want to sell papers. Boris v Dave. Well really its Boris v anyone they can imagine. You have to puty the poor public.
Say Remain win and Cameron has to give Boris a key Cabinet post so as not to appear petty, presumably we will be back to the Blair/Brown situation of the guys at the top pretending to make nice while all the while scheming against each other, a far cry from the mostly harmonious top team we've had (even considering the Coalition) for some time.
At least with a Leave win they'll end up united again. Eventually.
Except Cameron won't be around for much longer after the referendum, so it wouldn't be a long term situation.
That had been my assumption when I thought the referendum would be in late 2017, that he would announce he'd stand down in a year or something as time for a new leader etc, but with it being so early, I assumed that was at least partly so if he won, it would be far too early to talk about him going, even though the party would have torn itself to bits.
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
So you keep saying, but the City doesn't seem to think so. (Nor does the Beeb, for that matter).
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
Absolutely nothing in Cameron's deal is of any substance but that doesn't really matter. It will be lost in the debate to come: are we better off in the EU or out of it?
As I have repeatedly said this is a very complicated question and the answer is far from clear cut. I think the answer to your question is that it really won't make much difference. If the EZ begin to use their QMV it really won't matter whether we are in or out. We will be outvoted anyway.
The question is whether there is more benefits to being out that offset the possible loss of influence from staying in. Both of these are "hopes" and uncertain so the answer is unclear but for me the compelling obligation is on Remain to show why things are going to be ok if we stay put.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No
He
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
Clearly Melanie has never lived in servitude.
I'm sure she hasn't, but since when has colorful expression been allowed to undermine a point?
Edit: Wait, it always has. Although we then criticise people for blandness when they try to avoid it. Morton's Fork right there, end up being dismissed the same way but for different reasons.
She can say anything she likes. And I am free to think that she is talking rubbish.
The hated Melanie Phillips put it quite well on Daily Politics earlier
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
It isn't certainty people will get, it's absolution from responsibility. No matter how bad it gets, some people just want it to be someone else's decision. If it all goes wrong they can moan about the EU in the queue to the re-education camp. 'Leave' means taking responsibility. People don't want to do that.
The problem for a Brexit government is priorities.
If we really do want an Australian points system for our immigration policy, then the trade deal we can cut with the EU will probably be a pretty poor one. If we can get one at all.
Again, we could probably get some better ones elsewhere, so as with finance its swings and roundabouts.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
I think when people quote Boris' favourability rating, they ignore the fact that Boris is not running a department. People outside London have a view of him shaped only by the media.
What does the people of Liverpool think of him ?
This is why Boris will not put himself at the front and centre of the Leave campaign. He's calculated what's best for him politically, now he'll leave it to others to do the heavy lifting in set-piece interviews, debates etc.
He is entitled to think we ought to leave the eu without committing to tramping the country to argue so. All govt ministers still have their jobs to do as well. They will get plenty opportunity to display their otherwise loyalty in parliament as well.
What Boris has not done other than a generality is suggest where we ought to go, how we sensibly get there and define just what the end term difference will really be. The Sunday Times Business quotes the city as being releived ar the outcome of the negotiations and satisfied with the safeguards and that 50 of the FTSE100 leaders will be writing an official letter of support for continued membership. David Smith the Sunday Times Economics Editor confirms that immigration has a net economic benefit and that net migration from the EU is lower than other migration and that of the (larger) remainder a significant part is students here to study.
If they are basing that optimism on what they have been told by Cameron then they are going to be sadly disappointed when realty sets in. There is no protection for the city. None at all.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
Everyone of those "respected public figures" said we would go to hell in a handcart if we didn't join the Euro. Not one of them has a sliver of credibility yet sycophantic idiots like you believe every word they say.
Meeks may well be a very intelligent man, but his sneering elitist attitude to anyone who disagrees with him is shows a crushingly dull spirit with no other outlook on life other than play it safe.
Have any of you Remainers got anything positive to say about the EU or will you just spend the next few months insulting anyone who disagrees with you frighteningly intellectual superior beings?
Positive parts of the EU: Free market and free trade across Europe. A British passport becomes a European passport and allows you to holiday, move, work or retire to any nation in Europe without going through a visa process first.
Free market and free trade will not end, as we run a £3 billion trade deficit with them, unless of course they are so spiteful they shoot themselves in the foot,
I don't care one bit about visas, as they would need one to come here so as IDS was correct in saying, we would be safer.
I'll take on all comers tonight, any more Remainers come up with what they see as a positive?
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No
He
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Th
Clearly Melanie has never lived in servitude.
I'm sure she hasn't, but since when has colorful expression been allowed to undermine a point?
Edit: Wait, it always has. Although we then criticise people for blandness when they try to avoid it. Morton's Fork right there, end up being dismissed the same way but for different reasons.
She can say anything she likes. And I am free to think that she is talking rubbish.
Of course you are. I wouldn't term my objection to the EU as she did there either. But her point was clearly metaphorical, and her being in actual servitude has nothing to do with whether her point was rubbish. Presumably I am free to think that as well.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
The FTPA can be repealed by a simple act of parliament.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
At the end of the day referendums are one on the issues not personalities, see Scotland
Support for Scottiah Independence started it's late surge in the Polling following Salmond's demolition job on Darling in the second debate.
Who knows what might have been if Salmond hadn't been utter pish in the first debate.
The result was 55-45, exactly the same as ICM was polling in the summer, well before the debates!
'If only we all had Hungarian heated swimming pools, earned 20x the aver salary and voted for greenie parties. And thought rural people should pay extra and farming was unnecessary.'
You missed out the million pound apartment in Shoreditch, a salary not driven down by mass immigration, no kids to run the state school lottery & if the NHS is not great loads of money for private treatment
This is what LEAVE looks like. No wonder waverers are repulsed even when they think LEAVE might be right. Roundheads.
I found Mr Meeks's original comment - clearly directed at Theresa Villiers - was pretty immature. Remain like to portray themselves as being on the moral high ground. They're doing a good job at undermining that position at the moment.
I sense panic amongst the Europhiles. No positive case for remaining just insulting those advocating leaving the EU and scaremongering or outright lying in some cases.
BSE's campaign director Lucy Thomas is seriously out of her depth. I saw her on Sky News earlier talking complete rubbish about Norway and access to the single market. What is particularly infuriating is even after BSE have been proved wrong time and time again they will continue to spout nonsense. 3.10 mins in Robert Oulds from the Bruges Group completely destroys her. Thomas' knowledge of the EU is clearly limited to whatever soundbites she has been told to repeat.
The Leave campaign need to bang the message again and again about Norway and Switzerland being the two richest countries in Europe, and keep their campaign as positive as possible about the sunlit uplands outside of the EU. Boris mentioned that phrase this afternoon, we need much more of it from leave.
Norway is rich because it is a petro-state.
Focus on Switzerland.
With its 25% immigrant population. Focus on us staying in the single market and common standards and free movement of labour and people. Focus on Norways 15% immigrant population. Focus on being in the EEA is not much different to being in the EU. Why is it only I am offering a coherent option for us out of the EU.
Excuse me? I have been advocating the Norway option for bloody years on here.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
Does anyone remember that program on Channel 4 about the first 100 days of a UKIP government? Are they going to do another about the first 100 days ater a vote to leave the EU? A general feeling of jollity in the nation, street parties, etc, the devious (deviant) Europhiles packing their bags to go live in the EU - go on Channel 4 and Jon Snow, you know you want to!
Actually, I suspect the first 100 days would be an orgy of hard work as (a) we would then need to work out what relationship we would have with the EU, and then after that (b) civil servants and politicians rushed to negotiate new trade deals and to draft new legislation to take over from the point when - two years later - we were officially free.
While there would be hope in the air, there would also be trepidation.
I think in reality we would be bogged down in trade talks for years.
Would it be that hard to pull the EFTA agreements off the shelf, approach the same partners they have, strike the same/similar deals - except with the EU?
The easiest, and simplest, option is for us to go "Full EFTA". That is, we'd rejoin EFTA, and with it all of its existing trade agreements - with the EU, Canada, etc.
The next easiest would be for us to go the Swiss route, and negotiate bilateral treaties with the EU like Switzerland has done. This would be harder, as there there would be a lot of 'one on one' discussions with the EU, and it could take a long, long time.
The EEA agreements list all the member states individually. Would our withdrawal from the EU necessarily annul the EEA agreement that we're already party to? It doesn't seem obvious that we could be expelled from the EEA if we wished to remain part of it on the same terms.
On a technical basis are we listed as an EEA member in our own rights and not as part of the EU?
I don't believe so, no. But this is a grey area, and one that Richard Tyndall has been doing a lot of work on.
One of the advantages for Leave is that they have a whole menu of options for post-Brexit, while Remain has only the substandard deal to offer. Leave offers a lot of options, so if you don't like one they have others on the table.
Yes. The EEA / EFTA / NAFTA / just USA / Commonwealth / Empire....... / link with Mars
You'd never imagine from the puddles on the floor being left by Remainers here that we weren't even in this ridiculous organisation until 1973.
As I have repeatedly said this is a very complicated question and the answer is far from clear cut. I think the answer to your question is that it really won't make much difference. If the EZ begin to use their QMV it really won't matter whether we are in or out. We will be outvoted anyway.
I agree it's complex, but in the large view: having zero votes in QMV makes us more likely to be outvoted than having one vote in QMV, and having institutional protection in the treaties (beefed up by the renegotiation) is better than having no protection - in an EEA-style deal there would not be even a nominal requirement not to discriminate against us. So it seems to me pretty much 100% clear that the EEA route cannot possibly be better, and very probably would be worse, in this respect.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
The FTPA can be repealed by a simple act of parliament.
Of course, but not in a hurry if the Lords object and not at all if a Commons majority is lacking (which it might be).
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No
He
theres equally the possibility of a major row on the remain side.
So what ?
I think a Remain vote provides more certainty, at least in the short term. Leavers seem more passionate and hence more likely to feel betrayed if the final Brexit terms are not to their liking. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Th
Clearly Melanie has never lived in servitude.
I'm sure she hasn't, but since when has colorful expression been allowed to undermine a point?
Edit: Wait, it always has. Although we then criticise people for blandness when they try to avoid it. Morton's Fork right there, end up being dismissed the same way but for different reasons.
She can say anything she likes. And I am free to think that she is talking rubbish.
Of course you are. I wouldn't term my objection to the EU as she did there either. But her point was clearly metaphorical, and her being in actual servitude has nothing to do with whether her point was rubbish. Presumably I am free to think that as well.
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
The FTPA can be repealed by a simple act of parliament.
OK Robert I'm joining you. after two days the EUref has proved to be lttle more than mindless guff on the threads.
Can we talk about the impending August implosion of capital markets instead ?
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
Everyone of those "respected public figures" said we would go to hell in a handcart if we didn't join the Euro. Not one of them has a sliver of credibility yet sycophantic idiots like you believe every word they say.
Meeks may well be a very intelligent man, but his sneering elitist attitude to anyone who disagrees with him is shows a crushingly dull spirit with no other outlook on life other than play it safe.
Have any of you Remainers got anything positive to say about the EU or will you just spend the next few months insulting anyone who disagrees with you frighteningly intellectual superior beings?
Positive parts of the EU: Free market and free trade across Europe. A British passport becomes a European passport and allows you to holiday, move, work or retire to any nation in Europe without going through a visa process first.
Free market and free trade will not end, as we run a £3 billion trade deficit with them, unless of course they are so spiteful they shoot themselves in the foot,
I don't care one bit about visas, as they would need one to come here so as IDS was correct in saying, we would be safer.
I'll take on all comers tonight, any more Remainers come up with what they see as a positive?
I would guess on the second part not that much would change. It is in the interest of both EU and Britain to allow European passport holders to holiday, move and work in different countries. And UK Business would lobby incredibly hard to ensure that the access to cheap labour from Eastern Europe coming to live in the UK and in Europe itself remains.
Ken Clark or Boris? Everyone loves a clown but unless people treat this referendum as a trip to the circus when it comes to trusting the judgement of the respective sides the amiable and always reasonable Ken will trump Boris every day of the week.
Alistaire Meeks is right. The team line-ups look like Respected Public Figures V The Mavericks and the more high profile chancers like Boris that join the more oddball the Maverics seem.
The Maastricht Rebels were a perfect template for this. All we remember is a man in a funny striped jacket and a strange short lady surrounded by some seriously odd grinning blokes. I daresay they were all serious but collectively they came across as a freak-show
This isn't a reflection on the wit and wisdom of Boris it's just that most people see him as a joke. Joining a team with players seen as weird and even slightly sinister like Gove Farage IDS and Galloway makes them collectively look like Maastricht Rebels MK2
At the end of the day referendums are one on the issues not personalities, see Scotland
I think that's right if the choice is relatively straightforward like the Scottish one. This is far more complex and under these circumstances voters will by and large be influenced by who is making the argument. Rather like a general election.
I think when people quote Boris' favourability rating, they ignore the fact that Boris is not running a department. People outside London have a view of him shaped only by the media.
What does the people of Liverpool think of him ?
This is why Boris will not put himself at the front and centre of the Leave campaign. He's calculated what's best for him politically, now he'll leave it to others to do the heavy lifting in set-piece interviews, debates etc.
He is entitled to think we ought to leave the eu without committing to tramping the country to argue so. All govt ministers still have their jobs to do as well. They will get plenty opportunity to display their otherwise loyalty in parliament as well.
What Boris has not done other than a generality is suggest where we ought to go, how we sensibly get there and define just what the end term difference will really be. The Sunday Times Business quotes the city as being releived ar the outcome of the negotiations and satisfied with the safeguards and that 50 of the FTSE100 leaders will be writing an official letter of support for continued membership. David Smith the Sunday Times Economics Editor confirms that immigration has a net economic benefit and that net migration from the EU is lower than other migration and that of the (larger) remainder a significant part is students here to study.
If they are basing that optimism on what they have been told by Cameron then they are going to be sadly disappointed when realty sets in. There is no protection for the city. None at all.
They have read the agreement. Countries outside the eurzone can regulate their own financial institutions. Its easy to spout all sorts of conjecture when tou start 'If...'
To all those on PB who think the Tories are done for over the EU Ref..they could split..engage in bloody warfare..eat each others dead bodies on the battlefield..crap them out..eat them again.. crap them out... and still beat Corbyn in 2020
This is true.
The really big civil war may still be to come though given that there is no agreed Brexit strategy. Do all Tory Outers have the same aims?
No more than all remainers would have the same aims I should think.
But Brexit would have to be negotiated immediately. What will the position be on freedom of movement, for example? We know what it will be if we stay. Boris dors not seem to have a problem with it and wants a free trade deal with the EU that has more protection for the City, which also supports free movement. Is that what we get if he is PM? Does the Tory right support that, let alone UKIP?
Really you're just trolling and it sticks out a mile.
Fair enough. If you don't have an answer so be it.
No more than you do.
Post a remain vote as is likely do you stop UK relationship dead or when the Commsssion press on with ever closer union some remainers push will for joining and while others regret voting remain as it wasn't what they were promised.
Both sides have fairly broad churches and it;s pretty daft to say there is one answer which sums either side.
Hence the possibility of a major row on the Leave side over Brexit terms. I do, indeed, have no idea. Neither does anyone else. And no-one can provide a definitive answer. The day after a Remain vote we will know exactly where we are. The day after a Leave vote we will have no clue at all.
That's why we should hold a general election in the event of a Leave vote.
I agree with you on that. But the FTPA is still there.
...and is trivial to get around.
If you mean the auto-no-confidence-suicide-manoeuvre I don't think that's a goer.
Maybe it's just me, but I hope that ministers haven't been deciding which way to lean based on how it would impact their leadership prospects. Country first and all that.
"No, the country comes first!" - Liz Kendall, 2015.
Ok. Say he wins and does give Boris a key Cabinet post then. Granted, while the early politeness and talk of retaining/promoting Leavers should Remain win are just statements of intent, given how divided the party is on the issue, it seems at least probable that will remain the strategy in a futile attempt to keep a lid on division.
Cameron isn't coming out of this stronger if Remain wins - too many Leavers will be too bitter to have that happen. Yes, that is just a guess, but the intensity of many people in Leave, and the intensity of their rubbishing of the deal Cameron made and how he presented it, will surely ensure that enough will remain(ha) pissed off enough in great enough numbers that they will need to be mollified.
If Leave wins, my money would be on Boris as PM and Gove as Foreign Secretary. Perhaps Patel as Home Secretary. Maybe even Andrea Leadsom as Chancellor.
You'd need Leavers doing the biggest jobs during the renegotiation.
There would be a reconciliation reshuffle, with Remainers being brought into the cabinet too, but Osborne and May would be toast.
Gove is the man I'd want batting for Britain in the exit negotiations.
Comments
So what ?
The difference is that it would probably be parliament which decides. It could get very messy, because I think a majority of MPs are (probably) likely to want the EEA route, but a lot of Leave voters would have thought they were voting for killing off free movement.
http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/
Each new member upon joining the EU has it's own separate agreement to become part of the EEA.
Efta even has its own court to rule over its members, based in Luxembourg.
Meeks may well be a very intelligent man, but his sneering elitist attitude to anyone who disagrees with him is shows a crushingly dull spirit with no other outlook on life other than play it safe.
Have any of you Remainers got anything positive to say about the EU or will you just spend the next few months insulting anyone who disagrees with you frighteningly intellectual superior beings?
That is what Cameron's brilliant negotiation has got them. The square root of f*** all.
Leave offers a lot of options, so if you don't like one they have others on the table.
Remain has no more certainty over what it has just signed up to than leave, Paradoxically Leave probably offers more certainty in the medium to long term.
Trump has promised to be neutral on Israel-Palestine, has rejected calls to make Jerusalem the capital of Israel and has also said the Israelis are partially to blame for the violence. So no, definitely not like every other US politician. He supports a traditional isolationist/America First realist foreign policy. Be interesting to see who he picks for his foreign policy team, been meeting General Mike Flynn a lot, would be a superb pick. Of course Trump has already cast aspersions on the official story regarding MH17 and Litvinenko, the official stories being obvious nonsense.
Interesting despite Cruz mimicking Trump's rhetoric he has gone full on neocon in his foreign policy picks with Woolsey, Abrams and even suggesting John Bolton as Secretary of State! Scary stuff.
Rubio will be easy to take down with him being a memeber of the gang of eight for amnesty. Plus of course the sinister financial backers behind him.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/649237053121687552
Looks plain sailing for Trump now anyway.
In any case, that isn't even quite the point. The point is, would an EEA-style deal be better in that respect? (I'm 99% sure the answer is No, it would be worse, but IANAL). Or, alternatively, is there any other deal which would give the full access to the Single Market without the danger?
To paraphrase "Yes REMAIN offers more certainty, the certainty of servitude"
Boris for next PM whether the Remain or Leave wins.
With the EU we would do that but reject their social policy demands.I'm unconvinced that the EU would seek trade barriers as a price for removing EU social impositions, as they make a big profit from our existing arrangement.
She says the unsayable in the face of personal abuse let through by their moderaters.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/what-britain-would-look-like-after-brexit/
At least with a Leave win they'll end up united again. Eventually.
The financial sector is not asking for an unfair advantage - or competition, as it is usually known - but not to made subject to eurozone rules when, er, we are not in the eurozone. What the other states want is to stop the city being competitive because it might show up their own failings.
Also note in some cases what this stops is individual countries having stronger rules than those proposed by the EU. So even if you think that, say, your insurers should be subject to X and Y rules (and you want to do this because this gives the public reassurance) if the EU says that only X is permitted, then you cannot do this. In other words, the EU can sometimes stop national governments providing more protection for consumers.
It's the absurdity of the one size fits all mentality and a desire to avoid any sort of competition. It's what happens when you get formulation of rules by bureaucrats who have no instinctive or any sort of understanding of free markets, competition or, indeed, the details of how this sector works at all. And what it also means is that if they make a mistake in regulation, they make it across the entire area. And if that mistake is a vital one the consequences are felt by everyone and are magnified. One size fits all regulation, when it goes wrong - and note that I say when, not if, because it will go wrong or be found wanting at some point - creates - or has the potential for creating - a systemic risk.
In the end, its a judgement call.
Who knows what might have been if Salmond hadn't been utter pish in the first debate.
Actually no. Apologies. You are absolutely right here. Moreover I honestly don't think the Tories will split. There may or may not be bad blood. I don't know as I am not in the Tory party. But the attempts so far by the LEAVE Tories to try and maintain a decorous relationship makes me think that they may get through this okay so long as Cameron doesn't do anything else stupid like set the attack dogs on the LEAVE Tories.
Edit: Wait, it always has. Although we then criticise people for blandness when they try to avoid it. Morton's Fork right there, end up being dismissed the same way but for different reasons.
Free market and free trade across Europe.
A British passport becomes a European passport and allows you to holiday, move, work or retire to any nation in Europe without going through a visa process first.
I think itssafe to say the mainstream press have lost any interest they have ever had in facts or issues now. They have what they want to sell papers. Boris v Dave. Well really its Boris v anyone they can imagine. You have to puty the poor public.
As I have repeatedly said this is a very complicated question and the answer is far from clear cut. I think the answer to your question is that it really won't make much difference. If the EZ begin to use their QMV it really won't matter whether we are in or out. We will be outvoted anyway.
The question is whether there is more benefits to being out that offset the possible loss of influence from staying in. Both of these are "hopes" and uncertain so the answer is unclear but for me the compelling obligation is on Remain to show why things are going to be ok if we stay put.
If we really do want an Australian points system for our immigration policy, then the trade deal we can cut with the EU will probably be a pretty poor one. If we can get one at all.
Again, we could probably get some better ones elsewhere, so as with finance its swings and roundabouts.
Why aren't they protesting at the French government?
I don't care one bit about visas, as they would need one to come here so as IDS was correct in saying, we would be safer.
I'll take on all comers tonight, any more Remainers come up with what they see as a positive?
Or, as Pat Robertson said: "you don’t strike the king unless you kill him"
Stealing my bloody clothes!! Hrumpph.
Can we talk about the impending August implosion of capital markets instead ?
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/701499743235657729
Cameron isn't coming out of this stronger if Remain wins - too many Leavers will be too bitter to have that happen. Yes, that is just a guess, but the intensity of many people in Leave, and the intensity of their rubbishing of the deal Cameron made and how he presented it, will surely ensure that enough will remain(ha) pissed off enough in great enough numbers that they will need to be mollified.
https://www.mcc.co.ke/Home.aspx
You'd need Leavers doing the biggest jobs during the renegotiation.
There would be a reconciliation reshuffle, with Remainers being brought into the cabinet too, but Osborne and May would be toast.
Gove is the man I'd want batting for Britain in the exit negotiations.
He would be superb.
Cameron - Look at those dodgy f##kers on Team Leave
IDS - If we remain, ISIS is going to come and blow us all up
Boris - Huzzzzahhh