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Team Harris will take this right now – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128

    FPT

    Having taken legal advice.

    Anybody who seeks to glorify, excuse/condone etc the current riots will be banned from PB.

    Anybody who posts locations of upcoming disorder will meet a similar fate.

    These are in the first of a series of steps we are taking to protect PB.

    I have my own views on this issue which I will wait until calm has been restored before posting.

    Suffice to say I'm entirely unimpressed, as I am unsurprised, by the equally unimaginative, sluggish, and autocratic response by Starmer.
    Were you not impressed by how Dave dealt with the knobheads in 2011? Strikes me Starmer is going along with Dave's textbook.
    Strikes you, but he's not.

    Firstly, Dave had a got a grip by now - Starmer has not, and it's not clear he's anywhere close - and nor did he go full finger-in-the-ears and cryptoauthoritarian.

    Checking back, in 2011 it was Sunday 7 August until Thursday 11th August, when Parliament was recalled.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2011_England_riots

    This time, it has built far less rapidly afaics.

    On the Dave vs Starmer thing, we should remind ourselves that David Cameron's key adviser was .... Keir Starmer, who was DPP from 2008 to 2013.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,421
    edited August 5
    If the Labour government have decided they need to get tough on a sudden surge of violent and anti social behaviour, with rapid justice and tough custodial sentences....will they carry that on once it calms down? There's a gang of scum that ride around Loughborough Town centre, in broad daylight, on stolen scooters and motorbikes, with 2 or 3 of them on one bike in balaclavas and hoodies, weaving in and out of traffic and riding the wrong way down roads and kicking cars as they pass. They even comment on the multiple posts in the town Facebook groups about them. I've been waiting at traffic lights with a police car behind me, when the scum have driven past. They were gone before the copper had woken up.
    Cracking down on this sort of shit would improve the town immeasurably.
  • Twickbait_55Twickbait_55 Posts: 127
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:
    Didn't realise he wasn't white.
    Nor indeed that his Dad was an International chess Master.
    He obviously didn't inherit the intelligence his father had.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
  • DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    That was damn close from Duplantis. He was miles over the bar.
  • This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    KH "almost certain..."? Bold prediction :smiley:
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
    I didn't mention Shukr or Haniyeh. I gave examples of Israel killing Iranian officials and attacking Iranian territory. That is a more complicated situation.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Well Google have had their arses handed to them.

    🚨 DOJ v. Google 🚨

    - Court finds that Google has monopoly power in two relevant markets

    - Distribution agreements found to be anticompetitive and in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act

    - Remedies to come


    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205.1033.0_1.pdf
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457

    TimS said:

    a

    DM_Andy said:

    Roger said:

    Eabhal said:

    I like Northumbria Police's style: https://x.com/northumbriapol/status/1820506183297343819?t=QZg3QaQNjGtOR1aymt2wKw&s=19

    I hope a fear of your face and name being plastered all over social media is going to limit this to only the most hardcore individuals.

    Clever move. Photograph them and put their mug shots in the local papers. Then hold them in custody until their trial. This thing isn't going to last too long. They'll be joining the ANL before you can say cheese
    They've had their trial, at least they are smart enough to plead guilty - they are on remand until sentencing.

    The true nazi whacko believers would probably see a custodial as a badge of honour but I doubt any of them are actually on the frontline rather than agitating from the sidelines or online.
    Do we have any hardcore Nazis like the US or Russians types - genuinely scary, committed etc.

    The ones I’ve seen come to trial all seem both nasty and pathetic.
    We have a different tradition I think, more beer than vodka-fuelled, more football hooligan than cosplay SS.
    I'm not talking about the SS cosplay types - more the prison gang types with multiple murders who are really not afraid of anything that might be done to them.
    Parts of the UDA probably qualify (the South Belfast and South-East Antrim brigades, especially). The LVF, even more so, back when that was a thing.

    The UDA, of course, were behind the rioting in Belfast over the past few days, hand-in-hand with their new-found friends from Dublin's anti-immigration groups.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    Fun fact: Keely Hodgekinson was 10 years old when the Olympics were held in London.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    edited August 5
    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
    Compiling a list of Israel striking those who have attacked it, after it was attacked?

    That's self-defence!

    You can do a similar list of people Ukraine has successfully hit after it was attacked.

    The giveaway in @bondegezou language is the turn of phrase "no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion" - no but they have equivalents in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia after Russia's invasion. We're already into the war stage and have been since October last year, we're not in a pre-war conflict. War was declared and Israel has every right to defend herself against legitimate targets.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    There was a comment on Sky News that the protestors say they aren't racist but they just want their country back. I would love them to explain what that looks like in a way that's not racist.

    If I remember correctly, the phrase was popularised by William Hague in respect to the EU, appealing to Eurosceptics worried about the UK joining the Euro during the 2001 election campaign. It was also criticised as being xenophobic at the time. Unlikely this lot are talking about wanting to be free from Brussels, though.
    That was "In Europe, not run by Europe", wasn't it?
    "48 hours to save the pound" ... is what I recall.

    Which turned out to be Project Fear since Labour won and we still have it - the aforementioned pound - to this day.
    Only because Hague's election campaign put the fear of God into them so they didn't dare ditch the pound. He almost decimated Labour's majority.
    It was a terrible campaign. And "he almost decimated Labour's majority" is as accurate as a Farage retweet.
    Labour's majority went from 179 to 165, just 4 short of decimation. The Tories even gained a seat!
    I "almost" conquered Everest, but I missed the boat train from Victoria.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:
    Didn't realise he wasn't white.
    Nor indeed that his Dad was an International chess Master.
    Muslim too, or so he claims.

    Why a self described misogynist felt attracted to Islam is quite a mystery.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Sandpit said:

    Fun fact: Keely Hodgekinson was 10 years old when the Olympics were held in London.

    Thanks for making me feel old.

    So she wasn't even born when The Fellowship of the Ring was released.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
    Some Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

    Some Palestinians want to exterminate the Israelis.

    Its been going on for four thousand years.
  • DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
    I didn't mention Shukr or Haniyeh. I gave examples of Israel killing Iranian officials and attacking Iranian territory. That is a more complicated situation.
    Every one of those had people who were attacking Israel, after they'd attacked Israel.

    That Iran is behind the attacks is not a reason for them to be struck back after they attack.

    Are you proposing that Iran can use proxies to fight Israel without retribution?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
    Compiling a list of Israel striking those who have attacked it, after it was attacked?

    That's self-defence!

    You can do a similar list of people Ukraine has successfully hit after it was attacked.

    The giveaway in @bondegezou language is the turn of phrase "no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion" - no but they have equivalents in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia after Russia's invasion. We're already into the war stage and have been since October last year, we're not in a pre-war conflict. War was declared and Israel has every right to defend herself against legitimate targets.
    Israel and Iran have not declared war against each other, as far as I know. Is an Iranian embassy in Syria a legitimate target? I'm not certain it is under international law. One can make an argument that Israel acted appropriately then and are doing so now, but this isn't the same as the Russian-Ukrainian war. The question at hand is whether Netanyahu could have avoided this escalation of tensions against Iran. I don't know the answer to that myself, but his conduct in office generally has been horrendous.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,131
    On the riots, I wonder what the role of the dubious Tory-commissioned report that the threat of right-wing violent extremism was being "overstated", compared to Islamism, has had in the lack of preparedness.

    Certainly bears some looking at.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    The assassinations of Fuad Shukr and Ismail Haniyeh would have been provocative at any time but right now, with feelings running so high over Gaza, it is inviting a war. The last round of assassinations were intended to provoke Iran but they rather ducked out. Are they going to so this time? @Yokes thinks not and I defer to his knowledge.
    Most people on this site have been saying that Israel should not be going after Hamas in Palestine and should be going after the leaders abroad. But then when Israel goes after the leaders abroad, they're accused of provoking a war.

    So which is it? How can Israel best defend itself in your eyes?

    Does it have the right to target Hamas in Gaza?
    Does it have the right to target Hamas abroad?

    Which is better?

    Personally, I'd rather there were no innocent Palestinian civilian casualties. Targeting the Hamas leaders abroad is preferable to blowing up people in Gaza, preferably, but its bloody difficult.

    Israel should be applauded should they not for getting Shukr and Haniyeh? Far better than killing more people in Gaza in my eyes.
    Except it's been done in addition to the mass killing of civilians rather than as an alternative to it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Full respect to the Pennsylvania swing voter who I interviewed last week, who was convinced Kamala's name was "Pamela" and wouldn't hear anything otherwise

    https://x.com/jamesjohnson252/status/1820526369421627512
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    MaxPB said:
    "I didn't think the leopards would eat my face"!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
    Some Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

    Some Palestinians want to exterminate the Israelis.

    Its been going on for four thousand years.
    It has not been going on for 4000 years. Prior to the late 19th century, there was centuries without significant such tensions in the area.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:
    Didn't realise he wasn't white.
    Nor indeed that his Dad was an International chess Master.
    Muslim too, or so he claims.

    Why a self described misogynist felt attracted to Islam is quite a mystery.
    I thought you were quite relaxed about Islam?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Off topic: For Dr. Foxy, who is fond of old dwellings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Palace

    And here's a continuously-inhabited village of a respectable age: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oraibi,_Arizona

    The ancestral Puebloan culture is much older, beginning somewhere around 2 or 3 millennia ago, depending, I suppose, on which archaeologist you consult.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603
    LBC reporter chased out of Birmingham:

    https://x.com/fraser_knight/status/1820532972887388328
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Well Google have had their arses handed to them.

    🚨 DOJ v. Google 🚨

    - Court finds that Google has monopoly power in two relevant markets

    - Distribution agreements found to be anticompetitive and in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act

    - Remedies to come


    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205.1033.0_1.pdf

    Those seem like the most obvious facts in existence to require an opinion over 200 pages long, but I appreciate the legal nicities will be complex.
  • EScrymgeourEScrymgeour Posts: 141
    Duplantis flies.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Did @Leon go home bored?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    dixiedean said:

    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
    The 800m is the most horrific race to run at this level. It’s basically a sprint but let’s see who slows down the least at the end.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Nigelb said:

    Well Google have had their arses handed to them.

    🚨 DOJ v. Google 🚨

    - Court finds that Google has monopoly power in two relevant markets

    - Distribution agreements found to be anticompetitive and in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act

    - Remedies to come


    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205.1033.0_1.pdf

    Judge Mehta ….. I have questions.
    The bisms are insisting that I sign up with google before they will let me see other people's scores on my fitbit. A completely unnecessary and irritating change. They deserve all they get.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    World record!!!!!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
    I didn't mention Shukr or Haniyeh. I gave examples of Israel killing Iranian officials and attacking Iranian territory. That is a more complicated situation.
    Every one of those had people who were attacking Israel, after they'd attacked Israel.

    That Iran is behind the attacks is not a reason for them to be struck back after they attack.

    Are you proposing that Iran can use proxies to fight Israel without retribution?
    Iran shouldn't be doing what it is doing in Lebanon (or Syria or Yemen). However, it's more complicated when proxies are involved. We're giving Ukraine considerable help (as we should). Does that give Russia the right to attack us?

    Perhaps more to the point, the question isn't whether Israel has a right to strike back directly at Iran. The question is whether Netanyahu has handled the situation as well as possibly. Netanyahu made choices. Would de-escalation have been better? Netanyahu sometimes seems more interested in extending war to secure his political position.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    AlsoLei said:

    TimS said:

    a

    DM_Andy said:

    Roger said:

    Eabhal said:

    I like Northumbria Police's style: https://x.com/northumbriapol/status/1820506183297343819?t=QZg3QaQNjGtOR1aymt2wKw&s=19

    I hope a fear of your face and name being plastered all over social media is going to limit this to only the most hardcore individuals.

    Clever move. Photograph them and put their mug shots in the local papers. Then hold them in custody until their trial. This thing isn't going to last too long. They'll be joining the ANL before you can say cheese
    They've had their trial, at least they are smart enough to plead guilty - they are on remand until sentencing.

    The true nazi whacko believers would probably see a custodial as a badge of honour but I doubt any of them are actually on the frontline rather than agitating from the sidelines or online.
    Do we have any hardcore Nazis like the US or Russians types - genuinely scary, committed etc.

    The ones I’ve seen come to trial all seem both nasty and pathetic.
    We have a different tradition I think, more beer than vodka-fuelled, more football hooligan than cosplay SS.
    I'm not talking about the SS cosplay types - more the prison gang types with multiple murders who are really not afraid of anything that might be done to them.
    Parts of the UDA probably qualify (the South Belfast and South-East Antrim brigades, especially). The LVF, even more so, back when that was a thing.

    The UDA, of course, were behind the rioting in Belfast over the past few days, hand-in-hand with their new-found friends from Dublin's anti-immigration groups.
    New friends you say? Who is selling who drugs?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453
  • EScrymgeourEScrymgeour Posts: 141
    dixiedean said:

    Did @Leon go home bored?

    Off to the Beach Volleyball. Unfortunately the women don't play until tomorrow.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
    Compiling a list of Israel striking those who have attacked it, after it was attacked?

    That's self-defence!

    You can do a similar list of people Ukraine has successfully hit after it was attacked.

    The giveaway in @bondegezou language is the turn of phrase "no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion" - no but they have equivalents in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia after Russia's invasion. We're already into the war stage and have been since October last year, we're not in a pre-war conflict. War was declared and Israel has every right to defend herself against legitimate targets.
    Israel and Iran have not declared war against each other, as far as I know. Is an Iranian embassy in Syria a legitimate target? I'm not certain it is under international law. One can make an argument that Israel acted appropriately then and are doing so now, but this isn't the same as the Russian-Ukrainian war. The question at hand is whether Netanyahu could have avoided this escalation of tensions against Iran. I don't know the answer to that myself, but his conduct in office generally has been horrendous.
    I think this is all rather missing the point. Iran is constantly at war with Israel. It keeps its hands clean by using proxies to do the work for them. All part of the ring of fire strategy. Of course they try not to push it too far for fear of retaliation that might affect the future of their own regime. So it is carefully calibrated.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
    The 800m is the most horrific race to run at this level. It’s basically a sprint but let’s see who slows down the least at the end.
    But we like to think that the athletes kick for home and unleash their sprint finish.

    In reality, the first lap is run faster than the second.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Duplantis flies.

    It is a much easier sport that way.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
    Compiling a list of Israel striking those who have attacked it, after it was attacked?

    That's self-defence!

    You can do a similar list of people Ukraine has successfully hit after it was attacked.

    The giveaway in @bondegezou language is the turn of phrase "no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion" - no but they have equivalents in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia after Russia's invasion. We're already into the war stage and have been since October last year, we're not in a pre-war conflict. War was declared and Israel has every right to defend herself against legitimate targets.
    Israel and Iran have not declared war against each other, as far as I know. Is an Iranian embassy in Syria a legitimate target? I'm not certain it is under international law. One can make an argument that Israel acted appropriately then and are doing so now, but this isn't the same as the Russian-Ukrainian war. The question at hand is whether Netanyahu could have avoided this escalation of tensions against Iran. I don't know the answer to that myself, but his conduct in office generally has been horrendous.
    I think this is all rather missing the point. Iran is constantly at war with Israel. It keeps its hands clean by using proxies to do the work for them. All part of the ring of fire strategy. Of course they try not to push it too far for fear of retaliation that might affect the future of their own regime. So it is carefully calibrated.
    That is kind of the point I was trying to make. There is a long history to this. It's not an outright war. Both countries can and have in the past de-escalated. Both countries can and have in the past escalated. Iran is the greater threat to world stability, undeniably, but Netanyahu personally is no angel and puts himself above the needs of his country all the time.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
    The 800m is the most horrific race to run at this level. It’s basically a sprint but let’s see who slows down the least at the end.
    Obviously never run at this level, but isn't that more the 400?
    Although 8 successive 14.6 second 100 metres is sprinting for me.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
    Some Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

    Some Palestinians want to exterminate the Israelis.

    Its been going on for four thousand years.
    It has not been going on for 4000 years. Prior to the late 19th century, there was centuries without significant such tensions in the area.
    You mean when Jews were officially second class dhimmis and at risk of being casually killed if they upset someone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    Sandpit said:

    World record!!!!!

    Top win for the great ^ lots of Paul Atreides
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    A much more comprehensive reply. Thank you.
    Compiling a list of Israel striking those who have attacked it, after it was attacked?

    That's self-defence!

    You can do a similar list of people Ukraine has successfully hit after it was attacked.

    The giveaway in @bondegezou language is the turn of phrase "no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion" - no but they have equivalents in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia after Russia's invasion. We're already into the war stage and have been since October last year, we're not in a pre-war conflict. War was declared and Israel has every right to defend herself against legitimate targets.
    Israel and Iran have not declared war against each other, as far as I know. Is an Iranian embassy in Syria a legitimate target? I'm not certain it is under international law. One can make an argument that Israel acted appropriately then and are doing so now, but this isn't the same as the Russian-Ukrainian war. The question at hand is whether Netanyahu could have avoided this escalation of tensions against Iran. I don't know the answer to that myself, but his conduct in office generally has been horrendous.
    I think this is all rather missing the point. Iran is constantly at war with Israel. It keeps its hands clean by using proxies to do the work for them. All part of the ring of fire strategy. Of course they try not to push it too far for fear of retaliation that might affect the future of their own regime. So it is carefully calibrated.
    Enough. Let them go to war
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    Sheldon Cooper had the best idea, move Israel to the Mexican desert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shO1rZ-Q_e8
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    I wring my hands. Israel faces genuine existential threat which is dismissed far too easily, and forgotten even before they retaliate and have the chance to go too far, but they also are a strong and powerful nation compared to most of their opponents, which does engender sympathy for the Palestinians at least in being in a hopeless situation.

    It hasn't been solved before my lifetime and there seems no reason to believe it will in my lifetime or the next either. Hence the world just hoping things quiet down most of the time so we can live in denial.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    It’s worth remembering that Max Whitlock wasn’t nominated in 2021. He defended one of the iconic Olympic titles but was overlooked for Raheem Sterling.

    Bellingham won La Liga and the European Cup this season and was pretty much the main man for much of the season. He’s not favourite for the Ballon D’Or - but he’s likely to be in the top three or four. That’s far more than Sterling achieved in 2021.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,889
    kinabalu said:

    Starmer. I think, has had the best start of any PM since Cameron.

    Cameron however quickly showed himself to be arrogant and entitled, whereas Starrmer is surprising on the upside, so far.

    He seens, to me, surprisingly wable to carry off a number of modes; serious, empathic, hopeful, or stern. The first signs for his premiership, I would say, look pretty hopeful.

    And his position is strong structurally with the new landscape forged by GE24. The Cons are squeezed by Reform on the Right and the LDs in the Centre. Labour otoh have no serious electoral threat to the Left and the LDs are all about encroaching yet further into Tory territory rather than taking seats from Labour.

    I make him around 1.7 to still be PM after the next GE. The big vulnerability is Growth. They've made that a massive deal but whether we get good growth or not is more to do with global macro factors, with events and random chance, than with anything that's in his power to do. So if he's unlucky on that the next election is losable.
    Reform can also eat into the Labour vote as UKIP did in 2015. There are now a lot of northern and Midlands and south Wales cities and towns where Reform were second to Labour on 4th July
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,889
    On the CBS numbers there is certainly a chance Trump could win the popular vote but Harris the EC. Given there is just 1% between the national and battleground states margins
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,131

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
    I didn't mention Shukr or Haniyeh. I gave examples of Israel killing Iranian officials and attacking Iranian territory. That is a more complicated situation.
    Every one of those had people who were attacking Israel, after they'd attacked Israel.

    That Iran is behind the attacks is not a reason for them to be struck back after they attack.

    Are you proposing that Iran can use proxies to fight Israel without retribution?
    Iran shouldn't be doing what it is doing in Lebanon (or Syria or Yemen). However, it's more complicated when proxies are involved. We're giving Ukraine considerable help (as we should). Does that give Russia the right to attack us?

    Perhaps more to the point, the question isn't whether Israel has a right to strike back directly at Iran. The question is whether Netanyahu has handled the situation as well as possibly. Netanyahu made choices. Would de-escalation have been better? Netanyahu sometimes seems more interested in extending war to secure his political position.
    Ofcourse he is. Every time Western criticism of him mounts, this time after his meeting with Harris, and earlier in the year when the moises from Washington about possible restrictions in arms supplies were becoming louder, he transparently obviously seeks to solidify Western backing by precipitating wars with Iran, then presented as a civilisationa clash.

    It's exceptionally obvious, and he's not only almost as much a war criminal as Haniyeh, who he targeted, but also an exceptionally machiavellian strategist. He is the worst Israeli leader for at least 40 years.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
    Some Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

    Some Palestinians want to exterminate the Israelis.

    Its been going on for four thousand years.
    It has not been going on for 4000 years. Prior to the late 19th century, there was centuries without significant such tensions in the area.
    You mean when Jews were officially second class dhimmis and at risk of being casually killed if they upset someone.
    The situation for Jews worsened in the 19th century. But the situation for Jews in the Ottoman Empire, more so in earlier centuries, does not match your description of 4000 years of Israeli/Palestinian conflict. (Indeed, neither Israeli or Palestinian really existed as identities for that period.)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    Sheldon Cooper had the best idea, move Israel to the Mexican desert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shO1rZ-Q_e8
    It's a good enough joke though it does feel rather close to the bone on what some people think.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?

    Better now the swimming events are concluded.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    kle4 said:

    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?

    Better now the swimming events are concluded.
    Hurrah, this is always my benchmark for deciding if Team GB had a successful Olympics or not.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    I wring my hands. Israel faces genuine existential threat which is dismissed far too easily, and forgotten even before they retaliate and have the chance to go too far, but they also are a strong and powerful nation compared to most of their opponents, which does engender sympathy for the Palestinians at least in being in a hopeless situation.

    It hasn't been solved before my lifetime and there seems no reason to believe it will in my lifetime or the next either. Hence the world just hoping things quiet down most of the time so we can live in denial.
    The situation was a lot better in, say, the 1990s. Hamas and the rise of extremists in Israel have caused the situation to get worse. Hopefully, it can get better again.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    Sheldon Cooper had the best idea, move Israel to the Mexican desert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shO1rZ-Q_e8
    Is advocating ethnic cleansing not verboten on this site?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Drama all over the place again.
    France hit the post twice in 2 minutes for the third and fourth time in the game.
    Still 1-0 down to Egypt with 15 to go in the semi.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,517

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    The assassinations of Fuad Shukr and Ismail Haniyeh would have been provocative at any time but right now, with feelings running so high over Gaza, it is inviting a war. The last round of assassinations were intended to provoke Iran but they rather ducked out. Are they going to so this time? @Yokes thinks not and I defer to his knowledge.
    Most people on this site have been saying that Israel should not be going after Hamas in Palestine and should be going after the leaders abroad. But then when Israel goes after the leaders abroad, they're accused of provoking a war.

    So which is it? How can Israel best defend itself in your eyes?

    Does it have the right to target Hamas in Gaza?
    Does it have the right to target Hamas abroad?

    Which is better?

    Personally, I'd rather there were no innocent Palestinian civilian casualties. Targeting the Hamas leaders abroad is preferable to blowing up people in Gaza, preferably, but its bloody difficult.

    Israel should be applauded should they not for getting Shukr and Haniyeh? Far better than killing more people in Gaza in my eyes.
    As you know I was one of those saying Israel should go after the Hamas leadership (and Hezbollah although I didn't mention that at the time) and I am very pleased they are doing so. As you say, assassinating the leadership of these organisations seems to me a far more justified way to fight them than killing thousands of civilians who have no ability to get out of the way.

    So I was extremely pleased when I heard of the assasinations in Tehran and Beurit and hope they continue this policy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:
    Didn't realise he wasn't white.
    Nor indeed that his Dad was an International chess Master.
    Muslim too, or so he claims.

    Why a self described misogynist felt attracted to Islam is quite a mystery.
    I thought you were quite relaxed about Islam?
    I am. It isn't the only religion or belief system that is institutionally misogynistic of course, including many Christian sects.

    People are entitled to their own views, just not to force them on others. I suspect that Tate is attracted to force rather than the spirituality of Sufism.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    Luke Tryl
    @LukeTryl
    ·
    26m
    On a lighter unexpectedly note our focus group in Basildon tonight were strongly of the opinion Mel Stride should go into audio book narration after seeing a clip of him. So there’s something if the leadership bid doesn’t work out.

    If?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    There was a comment on Sky News that the protestors say they aren't racist but they just want their country back. I would love them to explain what that looks like in a way that's not racist.

    If I remember correctly, the phrase was popularised by William Hague in respect to the EU, appealing to Eurosceptics worried about the UK joining the Euro during the 2001 election campaign. It was also criticised as being xenophobic at the time. Unlikely this lot are talking about wanting to be free from Brussels, though.
    That was "In Europe, not run by Europe", wasn't it?
    "48 hours to save the pound" ... is what I recall.

    Which turned out to be Project Fear since Labour won and we still have it - the aforementioned pound - to this day.
    Only because Hague's election campaign put the fear of God into them so they didn't dare ditch the pound. He almost decimated Labour's majority.
    He almost decimated Labour's majority?

    So he almost cut Labour's majority by 1/10th?

    Bemusing way to describe Labour winning 412 seats (down 6) from 418 the previous time.
    I think that was the joke.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664

    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?

    We could get half a dozen golds in the velodrome...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Eabhal said:

    dixiedean said:

    I am not a cycle geek, but the fork design of the GB team's Lotus (*) bikes seems strange. The forks seem to continue up to the handlebars, with little or no stem?

    (*) Lotus have a brilliant history of revolutionary bike designs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_108

    The first six words of that post belie the rest.
    The thing about being a geek is there is always a bigger geek
    Especially on PB.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,889
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer. I think, has had the best start of any PM since Cameron.

    Cameron however quickly showed himself to be arrogant and entitled, whereas Starrmer is surprising on the upside, so far.

    He seens, to me, surprisingly wable to carry off a number of modes; serious, empathic, hopeful, or stern. The first signs for his premiership, I would say, look pretty hopeful.

    And his position is strong structurally with the new landscape forged by GE24. The Cons are squeezed by Reform on the Right and the LDs in the Centre. Labour otoh have no serious electoral threat to the Left and the LDs are all about encroaching yet further into Tory territory rather than taking seats from Labour.

    I make him around 1.7 to still be PM after the next GE. The big vulnerability is Growth. They've made that a massive deal but whether we get good growth or not is more to do with global macro factors, with events and random chance, than with anything that's in his power to do. So if he's unlucky on that the next election is losable.
    Reform can also eat into the Labour vote as UKIP did in 2015. There are now a lot of northern and Midlands and south Wales cities and towns where Reform were second to Labour on 4th July
    The Greens could also take more votes from Labour in metropolitan urban areas and of course there are still the Corbynite Independents
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    Sheldon Cooper had the best idea, move Israel to the Mexican desert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shO1rZ-Q_e8
    Is advocating ethnic cleansing not verboten on this site?
    Well the episode was written by more than one Jewish writer.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?

    home advantage will gain them more medals than previous olympics (they're at the point they finished in Tokyo). if they get the 25% boost in medals we did in 2012 they'll challenge us in total medals and probably pip us in golds.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Briefly.

    Iran has informed the Israelis via intermediary that they will attack israel directly

    Russias defence minister has completed a meeting with the Iranians in recent hours

    A number of Western countries are into active evacuation of citizens from Lebanon. Bear in mind thats a step up from 'get yourselves out and do not go'.

    Certainly suggests an anywhere from 6 to 48 hours timeline.

    Feck. Netanyahu is becoming a serious liability. The world did not need this.
    Unless this is WWE conflict.

    Iran need to be seen to hit back, and Israel to deflect it.

    So lots of flash and noise, but little bang.
    I love that analogy.

    But I'm curious how @DavidL reckons Netanyahu is being a liability for the suggested actions of Iran.

    Iran's actions are not Netanyahu's responsibility, any more than saying that Zelensky is becoming a liability for the actions of Russia.
    Here's some Wikipedia extracts. These are Netanyahu's responsibility and have no equivalent in terms of Ukrainian action against Russia before Russia's invasion:

    On 25 December, Razi Mousavi, an Iranian commander, was killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike at his residence in Sayyidah Zaynab, 10 km (6 mi) south of Damascus, amid the Israel–Hamas war. Mousavi's assassination marked the highest-ranking killing of a senior Iranian military official since the targeted assassination of Qasem Soleimani, until the subsequent killing of Mohammad Reza Zahedi in 2024.[46][47]

    On 20 January 2024, Sadegh Omidzadeh, along with four other Iranian officials, Ali Aghazadeh, Saeed Karimi, Hossein Mohammadi,[48] and Mohammad Amin Samadi,[49] was killed during a meeting at a building in the Mezzeh district of Damascus. The Israeli airstrikes, as reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, resulted in the complete destruction of the building, leading to the death of at least 10 military personnel.[50]

    On 1 April, Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. The attack killed 16 people, including multiple Iranian officers and proxy fighters. Most notably, Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a commander for the Quds Force was killed in the airstrike.[16]

    On the morning of 19 April, Israel retaliated against Iran. Israel attacked three targets in or near Isfahan International Airport, including a military base. One of the targets was a radar for the Natanz nuclear site. Iran claimed that its air defense shot down all Israeli projectiles and that the explosions were from air defense, but satellite images showed a destroyed air defense battery and damage to the radar system.[71][72] Israel did not comment or claim responsibility for any attack. In southern Syria, SAA bases were targeted, leading to material losses.[73] Explosions and fighter jets were also heard in Iraq,[74] and debris from an Israeli missile was found in central Iraq, suggesting Israel fired from there.[75]


    Now, Israel had reason for these attacks, and one could write a long list of Iranian actions too. But this isn't like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
    Israel is defending itself after it was attacked.
    Ukraine is defending itself after it was attacked.

    When a Russian General or ship or munitions dump in Russia gets blown up, then I for one applaud Ukraine for defending herself.

    Ditto Israel. Shukr and Haniyeh both lead groups that attacked Israel. Both with Iran's support. They are legitimate targets.
    I didn't mention Shukr or Haniyeh. I gave examples of Israel killing Iranian officials and attacking Iranian territory. That is a more complicated situation.
    Every one of those had people who were attacking Israel, after they'd attacked Israel.

    That Iran is behind the attacks is not a reason for them to be struck back after they attack.

    Are you proposing that Iran can use proxies to fight Israel without retribution?
    Iran shouldn't be doing what it is doing in Lebanon (or Syria or Yemen). However, it's more complicated when proxies are involved. We're giving Ukraine considerable help (as we should). Does that give Russia the right to attack us?

    Perhaps more to the point, the question isn't whether Israel has a right to strike back directly at Iran. The question is whether Netanyahu has handled the situation as well as possibly. Netanyahu made choices. Would de-escalation have been better? Netanyahu sometimes seems more interested in extending war to secure his political position.
    Ofcourse he is. Every time Western criticism of him mounts, this time after his meeting with Harris, and earlier in the year when the moises from Washington about possible restrictions in arms supplies were becoming louder, he transparently obviously seeks to solidify Western backing by precipitating wars with Iran, then presented as a civilisationa clash.

    It's exceptionally obvious, and he's not only almost as much a war criminal as Haniyeh, who he targeted, but also an exceptionally machiavellian strategist. He is the worst Israeli leader for at least 40 years.
    Given his tiresome longevity in them role it sometimes feels like he’s been the only Israeli leader for 40 years
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    This is the Nazi language of the Warsaw ghetto.

    Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says starving Gazans "to death" may be moral, but the "world won't let us"

    https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1820496414629351556

    🤮

    That is vile, disgusting and unforgivable.

    Taking the fight to Hamas, especially its leaders, is perfectly legitimate self-defence.

    Starving innocents to death is a completely different kettle of fish. It is neither moral nor acceptable.
    I'm glad you've noticed this now, but Smotrich has been saying much the same for many months.
    Some Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians.

    Some Palestinians want to exterminate the Israelis.

    Its been going on for four thousand years.
    It has not been going on for 4000 years. Prior to the late 19th century, there was centuries without significant such tensions in the area.
    You mean when Jews were officially second class dhimmis and at risk of being casually killed if they upset someone.
    The situation for Jews worsened in the 19th century. But the situation for Jews in the Ottoman Empire, more so in earlier centuries, does not match your description of 4000 years of Israeli/Palestinian conflict. (Indeed, neither Israeli or Palestinian really existed as identities for that period.)
    Bronze age tribes fighting over the fertile land and arguing about their blood thirsty sky fairies.

    Everything since has been endless echoes, sometimes louder, sometimes quieter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
    The 800m is the most horrific race to run at this level. It’s basically a sprint but let’s see who slows down the least at the end.
    Obviously never run at this level, but isn't that more the 400?
    Although 8 successive 14.6 second 100 metres is sprinting for me.
    One concecutive 14.6s 100m is sprinting for me!

    At the elite level, they can run about 5-600m flat out, then it’s all lactic acid and adrenaline for the last 2-300m. There’s a documentary about van Neikerk somewhere that explains it.

    Which reminds me of the “can you run Kipchoge’s marathon pace for one lap of the track?” challenge.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41WC1hH8WX0 tl:dr it’s 68 seconds a lap, and no you probably can’t.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Sandpit said:

    Fun fact: Keely Hodgekinson was 10 years old when the Olympics were held in London.

    Thanks for making me feel old.

    So she wasn't even born when The Fellowship of the Ring was released.
    Confused me for a moment till I realised you meant a kinematograph.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    Sheldon Cooper had the best idea, move Israel to the Mexican desert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shO1rZ-Q_e8
    Is advocating ethnic cleansing not verboten on this site?
    Well the episode was written by more than one Jewish writer.
    “Ken Livingstone has entered the chat…”
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Why aren't there any GB competitors in the canoe sprints ?

    We used to win medals in that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,603
    https://x.com/jessphillips/status/1820557465001570462

    People in Yardley are scared tonight. We have directed police to all locations of violence we are hearing about. Any acts of violence will not be tolerated.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    I wring my hands. Israel faces genuine existential threat which is dismissed far too easily, and forgotten even before they retaliate and have the chance to go too far, but they also are a strong and powerful nation compared to most of their opponents, which does engender sympathy for the Palestinians at least in being in a hopeless situation.

    It hasn't been solved before my lifetime and there seems no reason to believe it will in my lifetime or the next either. Hence the world just hoping things quiet down most of the time so we can live in denial.
    That's a little pessimistic. Remember you had the Abraham Accords. I've no idea how the Trump administration pulled it off but they did. There was clearly legitimate fear of Israel getting closer to Saudi and that may have sparked the 7 October pogrom. The Iranian regime is brittle.

    I sense that Biden has totally mishandled the middle east. He negotiated with Iran, released frozen funds for them to use, stopped designating the Houthis as terrorists and what did he get in return? Nothing so far as I can see.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    What's the likelihood of us finishing ahead of the French at these Olympics?

    At this moment 5 of the top 12 countries are English speaking. Which slightly parallels the language bias of international top university league tables.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,694

    Why aren't there any GB competitors in the canoe sprints ?

    We used to win medals in that.

    not as trendy as paddleboarding these days
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Well Google have had their arses handed to them.

    🚨 DOJ v. Google 🚨

    - Court finds that Google has monopoly power in two relevant markets

    - Distribution agreements found to be anticompetitive and in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act

    - Remedies to come


    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205/gov.uscourts.dcd.223205.1033.0_1.pdf

    How did you find out? Did you Google it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    algarkirk said:

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
    Unheard demand for free Crocs and cosmetics perhaps:

    https://x.com/Hasselschmuck/status/1820465000449741233?t=QdnKXR_aHzws6OS-BsLJ5Q&s=19

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    algarkirk said:

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
    I'm doubtful of this. Firstly the Brixton riots had a specific cause of police discrimination against blacks, which Scarman investigated and provided recommendations for. Secondly Thatcher refused to implement those recommendations.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 142
    Sandpit said:

    Picture of the day.

    No-one went home early, did they?


    Much better than staying up for Portillo. Nowhere near as late either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,407
    OK, I've just rewatched Skyfall: it's pretty good, with some superb acting, particularly from Bérénice Marlohe. Maybe I misjudged it.

    Not sure how the BBC are going to treat the Huw Edwards cameo in it though.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,366
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
    Unheard demand for free Crocs and cosmetics perhaps:

    https://x.com/Hasselschmuck/status/1820465000449741233?t=QdnKXR_aHzws6OS-BsLJ5Q&s=19

    Hasn’t there been a lot of tourists rioting in many locations - this isn’t like the previous riots where the rioters were local people
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    Q: What do you think about what’s going on in Venezuela?

    Trump: It’s being run by a dictator. And it’s very safe. It’s safer than many of our cities

    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1820512030681370703
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
    Unheard demand for free Crocs and cosmetics perhaps:

    https://x.com/Hasselschmuck/status/1820465000449741233?t=QdnKXR_aHzws6OS-BsLJ5Q&s=19

    If (a big if) this new government is as profound as some are hoping then it will in time be looking for a Lord Scarman to dig a tiny bit deeper than Twitter, the DTel or the Guardian into why stupid people riot and loot in 2024, just as they did in 1981. I submit Lady Hale, Lord Sumption and Torsten Bell to look into it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    That’s one brave Ref not giving that penalty.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    algarkirk said:

    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.


    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453

    This misses the mark. It may be too early to be pointing out that riots are the voice of the unheard, but there will, I suspect, be too many people who won't in this case find it convenient to remember the aphorism at any stage. First however there needs to be law and justice done on some terrible rioters. But Brixton (1981) ended up with Lord Scarman's report. Matt Goodwin will be one of the few making the point with a degree of rationality that law and justice (long prison for some) needs to be followed by consideration of why, as at Brixton, NI, Toxteth, Hackney etc, people rioted and in what sense it represents the unheard.
    How some of these areas have changed. I think it’d have to be a national avocado shortage to cause a riot in Hackney nowadays.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ratters said:

    tlg86 said:

    At this point, I’d say there are three who are almost certain to be nominated for SPOTY:

    Hodgkinson
    Bellingham
    Hewett

    I'm not sure why helping England be second best team in Europe at a sport is even worth consideration versus being the best in the world at a proper* race like 800m.

    * Nothing against the more niche Olympic sports, but there's something more impressive about being the quickest women in the world twice round an athletics track.
    This and the 1500 are the ones that aren't just about being the fastest. There's a level of strategy and tactics which make it difficult to dominate for long.
    The 800m is the most horrific race to run at this level. It’s basically a sprint but let’s see who slows down the least at the end.
    Obviously never run at this level, but isn't that more the 400?
    Although 8 successive 14.6 second 100 metres is sprinting for me.
    Last year Keely ran 1:23 for the 600m indoors, that is 6 X 13.9.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,407
    Leon said:

    One of the problems with Israel - which I have visited, many times - is that you soon realise many of them really do have these quite Nazi/South African dispositions towards the Palestinians

    They think the Arabs are a lowlier caste, poisoned with anti Semitism, inbred, violent and stupid

    So then of course your liberal western sympathies shift to the Palestinians. And they are charming and hospitable people on the West Bank. And you reassure them of your sympathy

    And then, once reassured; they say “well of course we want to drive all the Jews into the sea. Let them be gone. This is our land”

    And then, PB, what exactly do you do? Who do you support? My atavistic sense is: let them fight it out

    This is the problem when you get down to it: it is Alien v Predator.
This discussion has been closed.