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A fortnight on – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited August 26 in General
A fortnight on – politicalbetting.com

This is a pretty detailed case and most of the reasons are pretty obvious. But here's one factor that I think has been overlooked. pic.twitter.com/G2iz6Or2sD

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,450
    first?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,258
    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    I think Harris has a unique opportunity where she can just choose a person - a friend. I don't think she will do that, but she won't need to choose someone other than she likes.

    So we just finish up with Harris and her friend. It might be too thin to be really convincing, but when the alternative is the lumbering oaf.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    What style of mask do you like for your rioting? If you bring the bricks for the shopping, i'll bring the fashion wear.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    FPT

    There's gonna be a lot of people crying for their mothers on that first night in the cell at the start of an eight year stretch.

    Jordan
    @_jrdnp
    ·
    10m
    Young rioters in Middlesbrough live streaming themselves on TikTok smashing up new build homes and random cars

    If you can't do time, don't do racist, thuggish, stupid crime.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    On topic - The favourable for Mark Kelly combined with the very low negatives are interesting.

    Especially in light of some of the issues with Shapiro that might turn off the left of the party.

    Yes, Harris needs Pennsylvania. But past history of campaigns suggests that it is far from certain that a VP pick delivers their home state.

    I increasingly think that Kelly is the safe pick.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    Ohio is 5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123396

    Florida is 3.5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.229997015

    And Texas is 2.16s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123858


    But these are markets with no liquidity at the moment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @JesseRodriguez

    VP Harris is meeting separately, in person today with Gov Tim Walz (D-MN), Gov Josh Shapiro (D-PA) and Sen Mark Kelly (D-AZ),
    @Yamiche
    reports #veepstakes
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    edited August 4
    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    No, I would say not. But Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, possibly North Carolina?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,258
    edited August 4

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    Ohio is 5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123396

    Florida is 3.5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.229997015

    And Texas is 2.16s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123858

    But these are markets with no liquidity at the moment.
    Yes the back lay spread is big and there's not much money there.

    I'd like to get matched at:

    Ohio 8
    Florida 7
    Texas 6

    That sort of level.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    Son and girlfriend back home for a visit after doing the European debating competition and he's got Covid. He's also got an auto-immune disease and was waiting for hospital treatment. Sigh.

    Seems most people at the Euros came down with it. I have, anecdotally, heard of more cases of Covid in the last month or so than for more than a year. Its disrupting trials etc in a way we haven't seen since 2022.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,845
    The Mail has abruptly shut down its comments on the riots, I see.

    Possibly a word or two from plod on Russian bots and others stirring it up, as when they abruptly shut down the thousands of pro-Putin comments a year or two ago.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    edited August 4
    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    I take this as confirmation. :)

    F-16s in Ukraine.

    https://x.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1820097797556765019
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018
    DavidL said:

    Son and girlfriend back home for a visit after doing the European debating competition and he's got Covid. He's also got an auto-immune disease and was waiting for hospital treatment. Sigh.

    Seems most people at the Euros came down with it. I have, anecdotally, heard of more cases of Covid in the last month or so than for more than a year. Its disrupting trials etc in a way we haven't seen since 2022.

    I was ill two weeks ago. No COVID tests so can't be sure, but I don't recall being ill in July ever in my life. I guess that was COVID.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240

    The Mail has abruptly shut down its comments on the riots, I see.

    Possibly a word or two from plod on Russian bots and others stirring it up, as when they abruptly shut down the thousands of pro-Putin comments a year or two ago.

    The sheer weight of pro riot comments - often with the same tone of voice, “I don’t excuse this BUT” - was deeply suspicious. Definite bottery
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Son and girlfriend back home for a visit after doing the European debating competition and he's got Covid. He's also got an auto-immune disease and was waiting for hospital treatment. Sigh.

    Seems most people at the Euros came down with it. I have, anecdotally, heard of more cases of Covid in the last month or so than for more than a year. Its disrupting trials etc in a way we haven't seen since 2022.

    I was ill two weeks ago. No COVID tests so can't be sure, but I don't recall being ill in July ever in my life. I guess that was COVID.
    We bought some today because my wife is primary carer for her mother who is exceptionally vulnerable. Its going to be a real headache if she gets infected.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053
    edited August 4

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    Ohio is 5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123396

    Florida is 3.5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.229997015

    And Texas is 2.16s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123858


    But these are markets with no liquidity at the moment.
    That liquidity is appalling! Is there nobody that has higher liquidity. The best odds on there are £30 at 1.12 on Florida going Republican. A £3.60 profit. Oh, for pity's sake... :(
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,258
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    No, I would say not. But Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, possibly North Carolina?
    Ah yes but apart from NC they are already blue - and Harris is quite fancied to win them even if not a fav. I'm looking for longer shots that might come off if things keep moving against the Trump/Vance ticket. Eg if (as I think is possible verging on likely) it implodes rather.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    edited August 4
    Off topic, but endlessly debated here: Two thoughts on immigration: First, it is helpful to distinguish between pull, and push, in the motives of immigrants, legal and otherwise. For example, many Venezuelans are being pushed out of that country. In contrast, as far as I know, most immigrants from India are being pulled by the attractions of the American economy.

    It is much more difficult to control immigration from the pushed people, than the pulled. (Of course, many immigrants have both kinds of motivations.)

    Economists tend to pay most attention to the "pull" immigrants; Christians, even of the cultural variety like myself, tend to pay most attention to the "push" immigrants.

    Second, neither group pays as much attention to the character of would-be immigrants as we should. If we had, then, for example, we might have excluded Donald Trump's paternal grandfather.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,053
    edited August 4
    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    There is a part of me that thinks Florida will flip to Dems due to abortion. But happy to be pointed at and mocked for this... :)

    (the author wishes to emphasise this is an idle fancy and not backed up by my cash. DYOR)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954
    Say there were all of a sudden far right rallies in upstate Wisconsin or Michigan because some crazy second generation Somalian from Minnesota went on a rampage, who would that help?

    If they rallies turn into riots I could see it helping Harris.

    (hopefully of course it doesn't happen)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    Pete Boot-Edge-Edge

    Co-lin Powell

    "Commola" Harris

    Why do Americans have such stupid names?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    There is a part of me that thinks Florida will flip to Dems due to abortion. But happy to be pointed at and mocked for this... :)

    (the author wishes to emphasise this is an idle fancy and not backed up by my cash. DYOR)
    To be fair, I was mocking people who thought Biden would win Georgia in the early part of 2020.

    Until it became possible.
    Do you have some sort of a diary as to these things?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    edited August 4
    There is another advantage for Harris that will help her in states like Georgia and Arizona: Trump has badly split the Republican Party in those states. A good friend of mine, who spends half the year in Arizona and half the year in Pennsylvania, says the struggle between the two factions in Arizona has become a "fight to the death".

    Example: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/07/29/mesa-arizona-mayor-john-giles-endorses-harris/74596202007/ (Mesa is the third largest city in Arizona.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    Completely irrelevant to anything either myself or Leon said, but OK.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @YvetteCooperMP

    The criminal, violent attack on a hotel housing asylum seekers in Rotherham is utterly appalling. Deliberately setting fire to a building with people known to be inside.

    South Yorkshire Police have full Government support for the strongest action against those responsible.

    @REWearmouth

    PM @Keir_Starmer on the riots: “I guarantee you will regret taking part in this disorder, whether directly or those whipping up this action online and running away themselves.

    “This is not protest. It is organised, violent thuggery and it has no place on our streets or online.”
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    DavidL - Buying those Covid tests seems prudent, and I hope they come up negative for you and your family.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    Completely irrelevant to anything either myself or Leon said, but OK.
    "Completely irrelevant"?

    Like Farage's attitude towards the people of Clacton.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.

    I agree with Leon on this. Being a backbench MP, having to reveal his earnings, doing constituency work etc etc is not for Farage. It's too much hard, unrewarding work. He wants to be hanging out with Trump, pontificating on the telly, hanging out with his very wealthy mates, making money for himself and so on. I suspect he'll find a way out of Clacton before this five years is up.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    Omnium said:

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
    It's a bit depressing, on Friday afternoon I was worried if my father would come back safely from the mosque, then yesterday I saw an innocent black man go through a de facto lynching in Piccadilly Gardens, where I walk through regularly and was planning on meeting somebody for lunch tomorrow.
    I despise Islam, I think it's awful. However I would happily escort your father or anyone else to a Mosque as it's what you want to do.

    I think most people have everyone elses back in the UK. We're just British and that's a mixed bag but I'm sure we quite like it,
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,022
    Yvette Cooper announces an extra 29.4 million pounds for emergency security for mosques
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358

    I agree with Leon on this. Being a backbench MP, having to reveal his earnings, doing constituency work etc etc is not for Farage. It's too much hard, unrewarding work.

    He hasn't declared his earnings.

    He hasn't set up surgery.

    A recall petition would be a fitting end
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605

    Yvette Cooper announces an extra 29.4 million pounds for emergency security for mosques

    Does she mean they will pay overtime to the police?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @Steven_Swinford
    Keir Starmer says that riots over the past week are 'far-right thuggery'

    'There is no justification - none - for taking this action. All right minded people should be condemning this sort of violence.

    'People in this country have a right to be safe and yet we have seen Muslim communities targeted, attacks on mosques, other minority communities singled out, Nazi salutes in the street, attacks on the police, wanton violence alongside racist rhetoric

    'So no I won't shy away from calling it what it is - far-right thuggery'

    He says government will do 'whatever it takes to bring these thugs to justice as quickly as possible'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,258
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    Getting the hard right into government (or even anywhere close) in the UK is a mammoth undertaking and Farage won't put the work in, I agree. Someone else might though. So I wouldn't despair entirely.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @REWearmouth

    One rioter in Middlesbrough was filmed stopping cars asking: “Are you white?”

    Now rioters are looting a store
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
    It's a bit depressing, on Friday afternoon I was worried if my father would come back safely from the mosque, then yesterday I saw an innocent black man go through a de facto lynching in Piccadilly Gardens, where I walk through regularly and was planning on meeting somebody for lunch tomorrow.
    I despise Islam, I think it's awful. However I would happily escort your father or anyone else to a Mosque as it's what you want to do.

    I think most people have everyone elses back in the UK. We're just British and that's a mixed bag but I'm sure we quite like it,
    Thank you for your kind and generous offer but it really should't have to come to that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    I wonder when these fascists thugs put on their rioting trousers this morning they were thinking "If we do this right, Mosques will get extra funding..."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.

    I agree with Leon on this. Being a backbench MP, having to reveal his earnings, doing constituency work etc etc is not for Farage. It's too much hard, unrewarding work. He wants to be hanging out with Trump, pontificating on the telly, hanging out with his very wealthy mates, making money for himself and so on. I suspect he'll find a way out of Clacton before this five years is up.

    I haven't noticed many (any?) MPs not finding time to get on TV and pontificate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    FPT

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    DavidL said:

    Nunu5 said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:


    Stand Up To Racism
    @AntiRacismDay
    ·
    42m
    TODAY 🚨

    The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:

    📍 Rotherham
    📍 Birmingham
    @sutrbrum

    📍 Weymouth
    📍 Lancaster

    Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
    If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country

    I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial

    Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster


    Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
    Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_riots

    1981, 1991, 2001, 2011, 2024. So we were overdue.

    Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.

    There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
    2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
    Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
    These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.

    Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
    I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.

    They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.

    Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
    But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
    The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.

    There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.

    While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.

    Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.

    People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.

    The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.

    We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.

    Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:

    Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice.
    A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community.
    And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool…
    These people are showing our country exactly who they are.
    Mosques targeted because they are Mosques.
    Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill.
    A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph.
    And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets.
    Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.

    I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.

    I see two issues with the speech. Firstly, as I said, it makes no attempt to separate those legitimately excerising their right to gather and protest - rights that I believe the Labour movement was founded upon, with those who were there to vandalise property and assault people. Secondly, I think it was simply inaccurate. The arrests made by the police have included many (if not an overwhelming majority) of Southport locals. So it wasn't just bussed in thugs (though I am sure they were there too), it was overheated locals.

    A more well-judged speech might have been to say that whilst anger at the horrifying crimes was understandable and that he understood concerns around recent migration, he needed time to work on these issues, and for now, given that protests were being hijacked by a lawless minority, he urged people to stay at home, and punish Labour at the ballot box in the next election if it had failed on immigration and security matters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    edited August 4
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    Getting the hard right into government (or even anywhere close) in the UK is a mammoth undertaking and Farage won't put the work in, I agree. Someone else might though. So I wouldn't despair entirely.
    Lol. That was quite good. A sting in the tail

    But you’re wrong. I did that latest “find your position on the political compass” test a few weeks ago. I ended up EXACTLY on the spot occupied by the Tories

    I thought - “hold on, that can’t be right. I despise the weak blairite lefty Tories”

    Then I realised: the compass is based on the avowed policies and ideologies of the parties, not what they actually do. So I am a classic Tory voter it’s just that the Tory party never does what it says it will do, it does things way to the left

    It’s the Tory party that deserted me and became new Labour. I simply want a classic Tory government. Low tax small state reduce immigration promote integration be patriotic and get the economy racing with enterprise. Is that too much to ask??
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Keir Starmer says that riots over the past week are 'far-right thuggery'

    'There is no justification - none - for taking this action. All right minded people should be condemning this sort of violence.

    'People in this country have a right to be safe and yet we have seen Muslim communities targeted, attacks on mosques, other minority communities singled out, Nazi salutes in the street, attacks on the police, wanton violence alongside racist rhetoric

    'So no I won't shy away from calling it what it is - far-right thuggery'

    He says government will do 'whatever it takes to bring these thugs to justice as quickly as possible'

    The point being that he very much does 'shy away' even from speaking of the crimes of BLM or Gaza protestors, or Harehill rioters, let alone using such strident terms. So it's slightly discordant that he now finds where he put his big boy shorts. That's where accusations of double standards come in.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Pete Boot-Edge-Edge

    Co-lin Powell

    "Commola" Harris

    Why do Americans have such stupid names?

    Because they are a nation of immigrants, and American English is rather more varied in pronunciation than is English on our small island.
    Not as daft as naming yourself after a Bond novel,though.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Keir Starmer says that riots over the past week are 'far-right thuggery'

    'There is no justification - none - for taking this action. All right minded people should be condemning this sort of violence.

    'People in this country have a right to be safe and yet we have seen Muslim communities targeted, attacks on mosques, other minority communities singled out, Nazi salutes in the street, attacks on the police, wanton violence alongside racist rhetoric

    'So no I won't shy away from calling it what it is - far-right thuggery'

    He says government will do 'whatever it takes to bring these thugs to justice as quickly as possible'

    The point being that he very much does 'shy away' even from speaking of the crimes of BLM or Gaza protestors, or Harehill rioters, let alone using such strident terms. So it's slightly discordant that he now finds where he put his big boy shorts. That's where accusations of double standards come in.
    Wishing there was peace between Israel and Palestine is not the same as wanting to burn alive asylum seekers. That's the double standards and double standards are completely justified.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    Getting the hard right into government (or even anywhere close) in the UK is a mammoth undertaking and Farage won't put the work in, I agree. Someone else might though. So I wouldn't despair entirely.
    Lol. That was quite good. A sting in the tail

    But you’re wrong. I did that latest “find your position on the political compass” test a few weeks ago. I ended up EXACTLY on the spot occupied by the Tories

    I thought - “hold on, that can’t be right. I despise the weak blairite lefty Tories”

    Then I realised: the compass is based on the avowed policies and ideologies of the parties, not what they actually do. So I am a classic Tory voter it’s just that the Tory party never does what it says it will do, it does things way to the left

    It’s the Tory party that deserted me and became new Labour. I simply want a classic Tory government. Low tax small state reduce immigration promote integration be patriotic and get the economy racing with enterprise. Is that too much to ask??
    Hear hear.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    I take this as confirmation. :)

    F-16s in Ukraine.

    https://x.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1820097797556765019

    Awesome, a massive well done to everyone involved in that programme. Every small step, every new military system and capability that the Ukranians can get their hands on, helps to make the difference.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Keir Starmer says that riots over the past week are 'far-right thuggery'

    'There is no justification - none - for taking this action. All right minded people should be condemning this sort of violence.

    'People in this country have a right to be safe and yet we have seen Muslim communities targeted, attacks on mosques, other minority communities singled out, Nazi salutes in the street, attacks on the police, wanton violence alongside racist rhetoric

    'So no I won't shy away from calling it what it is - far-right thuggery'

    He says government will do 'whatever it takes to bring these thugs to justice as quickly as possible'

    The point being that he very much does 'shy away' even from speaking of the crimes of BLM or Gaza protestors, or Harehill rioters, let alone using such strident terms. So it's slightly discordant that he now finds where he put his big boy shorts. That's where accusations of double standards come in.
    And again he’s completely ignored the counter violence over the last few days. There are multiple videos coming out of Bolton right now of the “opposition” to the far right thugs beating the crap out of people and being arrested with knives etc

    Does he mention any of this? No. And that’s a massive error because the Two Tier Kier thing is clever and it will stick

    Go ahead and lock up every looting skinhead for years. It must be done. But don’t look one way only
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358

    The point being that he very much does 'shy away' even from speaking of the crimes of BLM or Gaza protestors, or Harehill rioters, let alone using such strident terms. So it's slightly discordant that he now finds where he put his big boy shorts. That's where accusations of double standards come in.

    The question he seems to be asking is are the majority on the side of the rioters or not
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
    It's a bit depressing, on Friday afternoon I was worried if my father would come back safely from the mosque, then yesterday I saw an innocent black man go through a de facto lynching in Piccadilly Gardens, where I walk through regularly and was planning on meeting somebody for lunch tomorrow.
    I despise Islam, I think it's awful. However I would happily escort your father or anyone else to a Mosque as it's what you want to do.

    I think most people have everyone elses back in the UK. We're just British and that's a mixed bag but I'm sure we quite like it,
    Thank you for your kind and generous offer but it really should't have to come to that.
    But sometimes it does. Like at Holly Cross school, when the Chief Constable led the convoy of children through. Wearing his ordinary uniform. While his officers wore full riot gear.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @BarristerSecret

    Free legal advice:

    You don’t have to attend a riot to be prosecuted for conspiracy to riot. You don’t have to be present at a terrorist incident to be guilty of encouraging it.

    A lot of Twitter warriors will be getting some unpleasant knocks on the door over the coming weeks.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,450

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
    It's a bit depressing, on Friday afternoon I was worried if my father would come back safely from the mosque, then yesterday I saw an innocent black man go through a de facto lynching in Piccadilly Gardens, where I walk through regularly and was planning on meeting somebody for lunch tomorrow.
    I despise Islam, I think it's awful. However I would happily escort your father or anyone else to a Mosque as it's what you want to do.

    I think most people have everyone elses back in the UK. We're just British and that's a mixed bag but I'm sure we quite like it,
    Thank you for your kind and generous offer but it really should't have to come to that.
    No it shouldn't. but it's the kind of action which builds the bridges that the yobbos are trying to burn down.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,349
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    Ohio is 5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123396

    Florida is 3.5s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.229997015

    And Texas is 2.16s

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.230123858

    But these are markets with no liquidity at the moment.
    Yes the back lay spread is big and there's not much money there.

    I'd like to get matched at:

    Ohio 8
    Florida 7
    Texas 6

    That sort of level.
    I just laid Rep in Texas at 1.14 for £100. That's 7/1. More money still on the table.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
    If you are willing to use fascists then you yourself just might be a fascist.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    Out of curiosity: Are riots in celebraton of athletic victories as common in the UK, as in the US?

    Related: Edward Banfield's "Rioting mainly for fun and profit".

    Example that sticks in my mind: In one of the big "race" riots in Detroit, something like 10 percent of the rioters were white who -- it is rude to suggest this, I admit -- may have been looking for 10-finger discounts, rather than protesting racial injustice.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    a

    Yvette Cooper announces an extra 29.4 million pounds for emergency security for mosques

    Does she mean they will pay overtime to the police?
    Probably funding for CCTV and private security. See the stuff that has been done previously. Such as for synagogues.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    One thing I didn't put in the thread header is that the R-CCC are planning on putting abortion at the heart of the campaign so that may potentially help Harris and give the Dems the holy trinity in January.

    Cheer up TSE. The 'and another thing' definitely isn't you.
    It's a bit depressing, on Friday afternoon I was worried if my father would come back safely from the mosque, then yesterday I saw an innocent black man go through a de facto lynching in Piccadilly Gardens, where I walk through regularly and was planning on meeting somebody for lunch tomorrow.
    I despise Islam, I think it's awful. However I would happily escort your father or anyone else to a Mosque as it's what you want to do.

    I think most people have everyone elses back in the UK. We're just British and that's a mixed bag but I'm sure we quite like it,
    Thank you for your kind and generous offer but it really should't have to come to that.
    Well we're all a bit stuffed if it comes to that.

    It's pretty hard to radically disagree with much of what someone stands for and yet entirely embrace them as a fellow person. Or at least to phrase such a thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    It's hard in a FPTP world to turn votes into seats. And doing it efficiently has (historically) required a lot of "ground game" to ensure that the votes are in the right places. There's no point - as the Alliance in 1983 or Reform in 2015 showed - in getting a significant chunk of the vote, if it's very evenly distributed around the country.

    Reform needs a young leader, who is extremely organized and not unafraid of hard work: a sort of Marine Le Pen character, who is not afraid to roll her sleeves up, do the policy work, and get the local municipalities and mayors under the belt.

    I don't think Farage is that person. I can see him getting lots of limelight, and attracting a fair number of votes... but breaking through is hard... and hard work. Farage does not have the advantage of taking over a political party with volunteers, money, a brand and thousands of local councillors who are willing to hit the streets.

    If - however - a younger leader were to emerge (and Farage is no spring chicken of course), then things could look very different very fast.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Scott_xP said:

    @YvetteCooperMP

    The criminal, violent attack on a hotel housing asylum seekers in Rotherham is utterly appalling. Deliberately setting fire to a building with people known to be inside.

    South Yorkshire Police have full Government support for the strongest action against those responsible.

    @REWearmouth

    PM @Keir_Starmer on the riots: “I guarantee you will regret taking part in this disorder, whether directly or those whipping up this action online and running away themselves.

    “This is not protest. It is organised, violent thuggery and it has no place on our streets or online.”

    The Home Secretary is presumably not asking South Yorkshire Police to mete out extra-judicial beatings. She is in danger of coming across like a supply teacher out of her depth in her first class, and should have made more on the appalling dangers of arson turning into mass murder, which probably none of the protestors actually want.

    The government as a whole, and I don't mean this particular administration, seems to be blindsided by social media trolls and bots despite their existence for years (and not just Brexit!). Serious questions should be asked about our cybersecurity infrastructure and whether the NCSC remit is adequate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    Scott_xP said:

    The point being that he very much does 'shy away' even from speaking of the crimes of BLM or Gaza protestors, or Harehill rioters, let alone using such strident terms. So it's slightly discordant that he now finds where he put his big boy shorts. That's where accusations of double standards come in.

    The question he seems to be asking is are the majority on the side of the rioters or not
    But again, that seems like classic political manipulation - are you on the side of brick throwers, or do you want to be one of the good, nice people*.

    *which means never complaining about migration or whether it's having a negative affect on your life or community again.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    .

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Red Wall of Ohio, Florida, Texas.

    Can we dare to dream on any of these?

    Any of them value in the 5 to 9 odds range?

    There is a part of me that thinks Florida will flip to Dems due to abortion. But happy to be pointed at and mocked for this... :)

    (the author wishes to emphasise this is an idle fancy and not backed up by my cash. DYOR)
    To be fair, I was mocking people who thought Biden would win Georgia in the early part of 2020.

    Until it became possible.
    It will be a while before there’s any decent liquidity on the state markets, but I think it’s correct that she possibly expands the map.

    Under Harris the Democrats appear to have abandoned the self-denying cringe, which has previously prevented their responding to Trump style campaigning in the appropriate manner.

    I hope they keep it up.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    It's hard in a FPTP world to turn votes into seats. And doing it efficiently has (historically) required a lot of "ground game" to ensure that the votes are in the right places. There's no point - as the Alliance in 1983 or Reform in 2015 showed - in getting a significant chunk of the vote, if it's very evenly distributed around the country.

    Reform needs a young leader, who is extremely organized and not unafraid of hard work: a sort of Marine Le Pen character, who is not afraid to roll her sleeves up, do the policy work, and get the local municipalities and mayors under the belt.

    I don't think Farage is that person. I can see him getting lots of limelight, and attracting a fair number of votes... but breaking through is hard... and hard work. Farage does not have the advantage of taking over a political party with volunteers, money, a brand and thousands of local councillors who are willing to hit the streets.

    If - however - a younger leader were to emerge (and Farage is no spring chicken of course), then things could look very different very fast.
    Farage has always seemed pretty uninterested in obtaining power, which is probably the most convincing argument against him being any kind of fascist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    I just don’t see it in his face. No hunger for power or the immense hard work involved in doing what you say

    He’s already kind of “won”. He made a mockery of his critics by becoming an MP. Reforms large vote probably will influence the Tory leadership election

    He can quasi-retire as one of the most significant British politicians of the 21st century. That’s what I predict

    He will then become a kind of told-you-so elder statesman
    It's hard in a FPTP world to turn votes into seats. And doing it efficiently has (historically) required a lot of "ground game" to ensure that the votes are in the right places. There's no point - as the Alliance in 1983 or Reform in 2015 showed - in getting a significant chunk of the vote, if it's very evenly distributed around the country.

    Reform needs a young leader, who is extremely organized and not unafraid of hard work: a sort of Marine Le Pen character, who is not afraid to roll her sleeves up, do the policy work, and get the local municipalities and mayors under the belt.

    I don't think Farage is that person. I can see him getting lots of limelight, and attracting a fair number of votes... but breaking through is hard... and hard work. Farage does not have the advantage of taking over a political party with volunteers, money, a brand and thousands of local councillors who are willing to hit the streets.

    If - however - a younger leader were to emerge (and Farage is no spring chicken of course), then things could look very different very fast.
    Farage has always seemed pretty uninterested in obtaining power, which is probably the most convincing argument against him being any kind of fascist.
    Yes he likes attention and influence. Not “power” - which is hard yakka. And as for actual governance - Lord no

    As @rcs1000 says the big change might come if Reform find a young charismatic new leader. I have wondered if Matt Goodwin could do it - he’s a persuasive speaker and he’s smart

    If that happens they could break through. But I don’t believe it will and I reckon reform will fade and merge with the Tories de facto or de jure
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,705
    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    We could bring back water cannon. Most of them look like they haven't seen a flannel in weeks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    edited August 4
    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    I’ve been advocating this for months!

    We need to bring back shame punishment and corporal punishment. As the prisons are full but we still need deterrence

    I’ve no idea why we are so squeamish about inflicting physical or social pain when we put people in jail for years - which is mental torture and also horribly expensive and wasteful and encourages people to form criminal links

    Two weeks of having pepper spray squirted in your eyes would deter a lot of people from ever repeating a crime but it causes no long term damage and you can immediately return to society
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    I’ve been advocating this for months!

    We need to bring back shame punishment and corporal punishment. As the prisons are full but we still need deterrence

    I’ve no idea why we are so squeamish about inflicting physical or social pain when we put people in jail for years - which is mental torture and also horribly expensive and wasteful and encourages people to form criminal links

    Two weeks of having pepper spray squirted in your eyes would deter a lot of people from ever repeating a crime but it causes no long term damage and you can immediately return to society
    We already have community-based punishment. You smashed it. You fix it.

    Compare and contrast. Boro has morons smashing up new build houses and asking drivers if they’re white. Across the A66 in Stockton it’s the International Festival with the town full of people from all over Europe doing art and culture.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Sandpit said:

    I take this as confirmation. :)

    F-16s in Ukraine.

    https://x.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1820097797556765019

    Awesome, a massive well done to everyone involved in that programme. Every small step, every new military system and capability that the Ukranians can get their hands on, helps to make the difference.
    Here's a recent video on the F-16 with the excellent Prof. Justin Bronk.

    TL:DR; the Ukrainians will only be able to use them in a very limited combat role; they will not have enough for their needs for a long time; and the training to get them flying is only the beginning, despite the limited roles.

    Well worth a watch IMO, as everything with Bronk in is.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLcfS0ki950
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Nunu5 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
    If you are willing to use fascists then you yourself just might be a fascist.
    The difference being that he would also use Communists if it suited his ends. He makes his living from getting idiots riled up; and it just so happens he uses the right instead of the left. The only core ideology in the shit he showers over the country is : "FARAGE!"
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1820092316436299809

    This is really grim.

    I don't care about a few Muslims holding knives actually, they might have been next as they were defending themselves against themselves lot.

    Sad to say but sometimes you need to defend yourself by any means to not die.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139
    I've 2 close Spanish friends - one from the left IU and the other centre left. Both gave identical reactions to the Southport murders. If the perpetrator was not a citizen they should be kicked out of the country. Both also have zero tolerance for immigrants who don't work and who live on benefits. To me and them, their reactions were simple common sense views which would be shared by many across the political spectrum. Yet on here they could easily be labelled as far right racists.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Southport's Tommy Fleetwood wins silver in the Olympics golf a week after three of the town's young girls are slaughtered for no apparent reason.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,904
    Scott_xP said:

    @BarristerSecret

    Free legal advice:

    You don’t have to attend a riot to be prosecuted for conspiracy to riot. You don’t have to be present at a terrorist incident to be guilty of encouraging it.

    A lot of Twitter warriors will be getting some unpleasant knocks on the door over the coming weeks.

    Starmer made a deliberate equivalence between those in rioting in person and those encouraging or planning it online. Consider the JSO activists and their zoom meeting.

    It's low hanging fruit for the police, and likely quite a few normal-ish people who will get caught up in it. Councillors, small business owners and so on. I've even warned some older relatives who are physically harmless but can get a bit excitable on Facebook.

    I've previously noted that IDS is rather brave in his support of ULEZ vandals. Tory/Reform MPs are gonna have to be careful.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    edited August 4
    Nunu5 said:
    “You are further charged with wearing a loud shirt in a built up area, stepping on the cracks in the pavement and looking at me funny. The only reason I’m not charging you with possessing an offensive wife is that you’re fuckugly and can’t get any.”
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1820092316436299809

    This is really grim.

    I don't care about a few Muslims holding knives actually, they might have been next as they were defending themselves against themselves lot.

    Sad to say but sometimes you need to defend yourself by any means to not die.

    The allegations of "Muslims holding knives" has zero relevance to some right-wing shitheads setting fire to a building with people in it. It's odd that you link them.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954

    Nunu5 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
    If you are willing to use fascists then you yourself just might be a fascist.
    The difference being that he would also use Communists if it suited his ends. He makes his living from getting idiots riled up; and it just so happens he uses the right instead of the left. The only core ideology in the shit he showers over the country is : "FARAGE!"
    Nope. He purposely sews division between races. He's no lefty and never has been. I don't believe for one second it's all about narcissism with him. It's deeper.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,139
    The problem is it is so much easier to label people and therefore ignore them than to consider their concerns. The violent thugs are no more or less than that. It's when the voice of the rest is lost because of them that causes the problem.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,650
    Is there enough evidence to arrest Anderson et al for inciting violence and hatred?
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1820092316436299809

    This is really grim.

    I don't care about a few Muslims holding knives actually, they might have been next as they were defending themselves against themselves lot.

    Sad to say but sometimes you need to defend yourself by any means to not die.

    The allegations of "Muslims holding knives" has zero relevance to some right-wing shitheads setting fire to a building with people in it. It's odd that you link them.
    Actually it does. If those Muslims weren't there, then the right wing thugs would have burnt Blackburn to the ground. But for their presence it is likely lives were saved. Tommy's thugs intentionally targeted Blackburn
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092

    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    We could bring back water cannon. Most of them look like they haven't seen a flannel in weeks.
    NI is the only part of the UK where water cannon can be used legally.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Nunu5 said:

    Nunu5 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
    If you are willing to use fascists then you yourself just might be a fascist.
    The difference being that he would also use Communists if it suited his ends. He makes his living from getting idiots riled up; and it just so happens he uses the right instead of the left. The only core ideology in the shit he showers over the country is : "FARAGE!"
    Nope. He purposely sews division between races. He's no lefty and never has been. I don't believe for one second it's all about narcissism with him. It's deeper.
    I disagree. He's not a fool, and he knows which section of society he can best manipulate.

    What makes you think it's not about narcissism? It's certainly not about helping the people of Clacton, is it, given the amount of time he spends there? You know, the job he's been elected to do, and is paid to do.

    Farage is about Farage.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092
    edited August 4
    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    The Awakener :naughty:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Nunu5 said:

    Nunu5 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    No one is listening to my legitimate concerns about why I'm not first.
    Am only asking questions.

    The striking thing is not Farage exploiting this with his “legitimate questions” it’s his absence from the debate. He’s made one 90 second speech that I can see

    This is what makes me think Reform might simply melt into the Tories at the next GE. Farage does not have the heart. He doesn’t really want to be MP for Clacton. He doesn’t want to spend his last vital years as some firebrand demagogue who doesn’t change much and gets a lot of grief

    He’s 60? I reckon he might bow out in a year or two and claim he steered the Tories in a more reform-y direction. And without Farage reform are nothing

    That should be a source of solace for the Tories. But my god they need to seize the opportunity
    Farage has said he's on a 7 year (afaicr) mission to create a movement in politics that gets into Government and then presumably implements the desired policies on migration etc. I see no reason to disbelieve that he wants to do that without new information.
    Farage says many things.

    They are not about making a better Britain.

    They are about Farage.
    It will be interesting to see how he distances himself from the Farascists who tried to kill brown people today
    'Farascists'

    Ha. I like that.

    I don't think Farage is a fascist, but I do think he's willing to use people who are fascist-leaning towards propelling himself forwards.
    If you are willing to use fascists then you yourself just might be a fascist.
    The difference being that he would also use Communists if it suited his ends. He makes his living from getting idiots riled up; and it just so happens he uses the right instead of the left. The only core ideology in the shit he showers over the country is : "FARAGE!"
    Nope. He purposely sews division between races. He's no lefty and never has been. I don't believe for one second it's all about narcissism with him. It's deeper.
    I think is it a narcissism in a direction in which he is personally inclined.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Nunu5 said:

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1820092316436299809

    This is really grim.

    I don't care about a few Muslims holding knives actually, they might have been next as they were defending themselves against themselves lot.

    Sad to say but sometimes you need to defend yourself by any means to not die.

    The allegations of "Muslims holding knives" has zero relevance to some right-wing shitheads setting fire to a building with people in it. It's odd that you link them.
    Actually it does. If those Muslims weren't there, then the right wing thugs would have burnt Blackburn to the ground. But for their presence it is likely lives were saved. Tommy's thugs intentionally targeted Blackburn
    That sounds like you're blaming the 'Muslims' for the right-wing thugs' violence???
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    Too unpredictable. Could lead to maiming or death.

    Don't like someone? Really, really want to shut them up for good? Go along with swedes with half a brick hidden in them. Or pay some neds in the pub to do it for you.

    And there would be further rioting if your supporters clashed with the other lot.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,279
    A public condemnation from Boris wouldn't go amiss. Doubt it would get through to the violent types, but it might help a little with the rest.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    Omnium said:

    I think the police should round up the rioters and deport them to Rwanda. There is an irony that will be lost on them but not those of us with brain cells

    Whatever happened to punishment such as the Stocks and the Pillory? Does anyone know if there are nations still with such punishments?
    We could bring back water cannon. Most of them look like they haven't seen a flannel in weeks.
    NI is the only part of the UK where water cannon can be used legally.
    Didn't Mr Johnson buy some for London?
This discussion has been closed.