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Ils ne passeront pas – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    Croisement!

    NFP left-wing coalition (144)
    Macron's coalition Ensemble (140)
    RN (incl. LR-RN) (135)
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,883
    OT. My ex PA sent me some photos of her latest production (she lives and works in Hollywood) and next to her in one of the photos is a familiar figure. 'What' I texted back 'are you doing with Madam Vice President standing next to you!'. 'She's a neighbour and a friend' she replied......

    This was about six months ago and though we speak quite often I haven't thought about it since. However I've just read that MVP's in with a good chance of taking over. Wouldn't that be fun.....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    dixiedean said:

    Crossover klaxon!
    95 seats to go. Almost all around Paris.
    NFP 140 RN 135 Macron 133.

    Likelihood of RN winning many more seats looks slim, seeing as how only a dozen or so of the remaining seats still outstanding are outside the Paris region.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited July 7
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

  • Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
  • HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers
    You could you know, abstain.
  • Clacton Labour candidate, Jovan Owusu-Nepaul says Reform supporters spat at him, tore up his leaflets and asked him where he was “really from”

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1810056422627131439

    Lovely.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    They didn't have to vote though.

    Macron's problem is that there looks to be a large majority for various forms of Truss/Farage/Corbyn economics.
    LR and the Macronists and independent right and centre maybe reach 230 or so. My guess is a PM from that grouping would at least get some part of the left to abstain on a confidence vote, but they won’t achieve anything.

    I don't see how LR goes into a coalition, they absolutely hate Macron. They'd rather let Macron do a deal with the hard left and drive centrist voters back to LR for the presidential election.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
    That's thanks to your rightwing American friends, don't you know?

    Take two aspirins and go soak your head. AND try NOT to kick the cat.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,568

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Off to Le Bed in a second

    One point: France can be weirdly cheap

    This is the Luberon, a lavishly pretty corner of touristy Provence. Peter Mayle territory. Lots of gorgeous little viillages and sweet hilltop restaurants and rolling green vineyards. Surely boring as buggery in winter but lush in July

    I have arrived a day early, my friend’s house is available tomorrow. I have therefore rented a rustic 1 bed apartment with a little garden in a sweet village 2km from Mayle’s house. Price? Seventy euro….

    Feck, I have just been charged £100 for a soulless room in a 3* hotel in Glasgow which doesn't even have a kettle in it.
    I detest that modern trend of no tea and coffee making facilities in the room in some 'hotels' making you go down to the achingly hip "communal area" to get a cup of tea. Bugger OFF. Give me my shortbread and nescafe sachets.
    I once had a €30 hotel room in Tarifa (ferry cancelled due to weather) which didn't even have a drinking vessel. Not even a plastic cup. Had to go and ask at reception.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    They didn't have to vote though.

    Macron's problem is that there looks to be a large majority for various forms of Truss/Farage/Corbyn economics.
    One fear I have is that allowing the far left into government could lead to President Le Pen. I'm not sure how he finesses this.
    Indeed, Le Pen got 65% to 35% for Melenchon in an April 2024 French poll, while Le Pen only beat Attal 53% to 47% and Philippe 51% to 49%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_French_presidential_election
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    If France had only one round and it was FPTP then RN would have a huge majority . It’s all ifs and buts . French voters vote according to the system they have . A French political commentator makes a good point . The first round was a referendum on Macron , the second round voters mobilized to stop RN .

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,410
    carnforth said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Off to Le Bed in a second

    One point: France can be weirdly cheap

    This is the Luberon, a lavishly pretty corner of touristy Provence. Peter Mayle territory. Lots of gorgeous little viillages and sweet hilltop restaurants and rolling green vineyards. Surely boring as buggery in winter but lush in July

    I have arrived a day early, my friend’s house is available tomorrow. I have therefore rented a rustic 1 bed apartment with a little garden in a sweet village 2km from Mayle’s house. Price? Seventy euro….

    Feck, I have just been charged £100 for a soulless room in a 3* hotel in Glasgow which doesn't even have a kettle in it.
    I detest that modern trend of no tea and coffee making facilities in the room in some 'hotels' making you go down to the achingly hip "communal area" to get a cup of tea. Bugger OFF. Give me my shortbread and nescafe sachets.
    I once had a €30 hotel room in Tarifa (ferry cancelled due to weather) which didn't even have a drinking vessel. Not even a plastic cup. Had to go and ask at reception.
    Ugh. If anything is going to ensure the ascendancy of the hard right, that's it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Starmer has a family cat called Jojo according to Sunday Times.

    Vic is worried that Larry and Jojo may not find common ground.
    Larry is going to live on a lovely farm in the country.
    Apparently.
  • Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
    If you wanted to vote for Le Pen's party, you either could or you couldn't. Which is it?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,281
    UK results:

    Surveyed the 65 most Muslim constituencies in the UK (i.e. 10% of the total electorate), per Henry Jackson society.

    - Average Labour vote share drop across the 65 constituencies is 16.5%
    - That is Labour dropped 1.65% national vote share in these places (and given an overall gain of 1.6% gained 3.25% everywhere else)
    - Only gained vote share in 1/65 constituencies: Pendle & Clitheroe
    - Con hold in Keighley probably due to this, though didn't prevent Labour gaining seats such as Wycombe, Burnley, Peterborough despite their reduced vote share
    - Splitting further by 13 seat groupings average vote share loss was: 1-13 most Muslim, -32.2% (including 3 seats losses); seats 14-26, -18.5% (including Ashworth and Streeting); seats 27-39, -14.1% (including Starmer); seats 40-52, -9.4%; seats 53-65, -8.5%.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    But it isn't the far left block of Melenchon!!!
    It is, Melenchon leads it and is as bad as Corbyn and even more economically illiterate and anti Israel and even more pro Putin than Le Pen
    But Melenchon does not lead it. They have no leader. Every single Party in the coalition, apart from LFI agrees. They don't know who the leader is. But it isn't Melenchon.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
    That's thanks to your rightwing American friends, don't you know?

    Take two aspirins and go soak your head. AND try NOT to kick the cat.
    You are trying too hard and not winning here. I said two posts back that I am in US terms firmly Dem (and firmly pro gun control).
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,366
    So, Goodwin reckons the 'elites' have conspired against Le Pen today. That means, presumably, he thinks Melenchon and the other leftists and greens voting for the left bloc are part of this 'elite' conspiring to stop the march of the far right.

    For an academic, he shows a pretty poor grasp of what an 'elite' is. It's not just anybody who doesn't agree with him, as he seems to think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,577
    EPG said:

    When the far right loses, we get lectures telling us that the new government should be far right anyway, because voter concerns. That's not how elections work for other parties. You fail, you lose.

    Is this a reference to Tony Blair's advice to Starmer?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Clacton Labour candidate, Jovan Owusu-Nepaul says Reform supporters spat at him, tore up his leaflets and asked him where he was “really from”

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1810056422627131439

    Lovely.

    Not nice at all. But the most disturbing stories still appear to be those involving Gaza independents.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    edited July 7
    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651

    EPG said:

    When the far right loses, we get lectures telling us that the new government should be far right anyway, because voter concerns. That's not how elections work for other parties. You fail, you lose.

    Is this a reference to Tony Blair's advice to Starmer?
    The sneaking regarders of global ethnic sectarianism, who whine when they lose that their policies should still win, or else.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    But it isn't the far left block of Melenchon!!!
    It is, Melenchon leads it and is as bad as Corbyn and even more economically illiterate and anti Israel and even more pro Putin than Le Pen
    But Melenchon does not lead it. They have no leader. Every single Party in the coalition, apart from LFI agrees. They don't know who the leader is. But it isn't Melenchon.
    It is Melenchon, his LFI party is by far the biggest in it
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Pro_Rata said:

    UK results:

    Surveyed the 65 most Muslim constituencies in the UK (i.e. 10% of the total electorate), per Henry Jackson society.

    - Average Labour vote share drop across the 65 constituencies is 16.5%
    - That is Labour dropped 1.65% national vote share in these places (and given an overall gain of 1.6% gained 3.25% everywhere else)
    - Only gained vote share in 1/65 constituencies: Pendle & Clitheroe
    - Con hold in Keighley probably due to this, though didn't prevent Labour gaining seats such as Wycombe, Burnley, Peterborough despite their reduced vote share
    - Splitting further by 13 seat groupings average vote share loss was: 1-13 most Muslim, -32.2% (including 3 seats losses); seats 14-26, -18.5% (including Ashworth and Streeting); seats 27-39, -14.1% (including Starmer); seats 40-52, -9.4%; seats 53-65, -8.5%.

    Keighley. This and the closure of the household waste recycling centre in Ilkley.

    Last time I mention it. But I did suggest it as a potential Tory hold for these two reasons.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342
    edited July 7
    FF43 said:
    The left is up about 40 seats on 2022. RN is up 55. The Macronists down about 90. This a very Pyrrhic victory for Macron.

    Overall, parties of the Right look set to have a plurality in the Assembly. If indeed, LR hate Macron, and LFI hate Macron, I don’t see where a majority can be found.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 7

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    Apparently voting ends 2 hours later in cities.

    This seems very odd, if anything rural areas should finish later as longer travelling distance to polling station.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
    Well, it's just my subjunctive opinion that you're wrong there; your parents should ask for their money back.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Pro_Rata said:

    UK results:

    Surveyed the 65 most Muslim constituencies in the UK (i.e. 10% of the total electorate), per Henry Jackson society.

    - Average Labour vote share drop across the 65 constituencies is 16.5%
    - That is Labour dropped 1.65% national vote share in these places (and given an overall gain of 1.6% gained 3.25% everywhere else)
    - Only gained vote share in 1/65 constituencies: Pendle & Clitheroe
    - Con hold in Keighley probably due to this, though didn't prevent Labour gaining seats such as Wycombe, Burnley, Peterborough despite their reduced vote share
    - Splitting further by 13 seat groupings average vote share loss was: 1-13 most Muslim, -32.2% (including 3 seats losses); seats 14-26, -18.5% (including Ashworth and Streeting); seats 27-39, -14.1% (including Starmer); seats 40-52, -9.4%; seats 53-65, -8.5%.

    Did you know that Henry "Scoop" Jackson, was a Democratic US Senator from Washington State from 1953-83?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Jackson

    Happen to have his copy (embossed with his name) of "Senate Procedure: Precedents and Practices" (1981) which I obtained years ago, from a used bookstore in Jackson's home town of Everett WA.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    They didn't have to vote though.

    Macron's problem is that there looks to be a large majority for various forms of Truss/Farage/Corbyn economics.
    LR and the Macronists and independent right and centre maybe reach 230 or so. My guess is a PM from that grouping would at least get some part of the left to abstain on a confidence vote, but they won’t achieve anything.

    I don't see how LR goes into a coalition, they absolutely hate Macron. They'd rather let Macron do a deal with the hard left and drive centrist voters back to LR for the presidential election.
    Indeed, the biggest winners from tonight may be LR ironically, RN have proved they cannot win a majority for the right. Macron's party is no longer largest in France and if they do a deal with Melenchon that will send centrists and centre right voters back to LR in big numbers
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    Apparently voting ends 2 hours later in cities.

    This seems very odd, if anything rural areas should finish later as longer travelling distance to polling station.
    Good point though, whatever the reasoning.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    Because. They count by commune. Many of which have only a few dozen votes. They don't carry them all to a central location then begin counting once they've all arrived.
    And the cities have polls open two hours longer. So they get a head start.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    So many on here don't seem to WANT TO understand that.
  • Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207
    edited July 7

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    They count at the polling stations, don't they? Which cuts out a step we have in the UK.

    And if the district is made of lots of tiddly little villages, each one can presumably count their tiddly pile of ballots fairly quickly, working in parallel.

    (ETA: What @dixiedean said.)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
    If you wanted to vote for Le Pen's party, you either could or you couldn't. Which is it?
    Correct, you could, you could also for the party of your choice rather than being left with a reduced list of candidates. The FN wasnt going to form a government because a) they probably wouldnt have had the numbers based on the results we have tonight and b) no one would go into coalition with them anyway.

    I would tend to trust the French populous to know where its at. Resentment and victim status is a powerful sustaining force for parties such as FN, dont give them it. They now have an excuse about why they lost, which will just be another reason for their support to cosolidate. The way to beat them is take away their arguments.
  • Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
    If you wanted to vote for Le Pen's party, you either could or you couldn't. Which is it?
    Correct, you could, you could also for the party of your choice rather than being left with a reduced list of candidates. The FN wasnt going to form a government because a) they probably wouldnt have had the numbers based on the results we have tonight and b) no one would go into coalition with them anyway.

    I would tend to trust the French populous to know where its at. Resentment and victim status is a powerful sustaining force for parties such as FN, dont give them it. They now have an excuse about why they lost, which will just be another reason for their support to cosolidate. The way to beat them is take away their arguments.
    But as I said, you're a far right supporter so instead you choose to vote for a leftist? Your logic doesn't make sense.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
    That's thanks to your rightwing American friends, don't you know?

    Take two aspirins and go soak your head. AND try NOT to kick the cat.
    You are trying too hard and not winning here. I said two posts back that I am in US terms firmly Dem (and firmly pro gun control).
    My apology on that point. Missed it due to you being such a humorless a-hole tonight.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    Doesn't that depend on how moderate the 'moderate' leftists are.

    How many of them want to return the retirement age to 60 and introduce price caps ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    dixiedean said:

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    Because. They count by commune. Many of which have only a few dozen votes. They don't carry them all to a central location then begin counting once they've all arrived.
    And the cities have polls open two hours longer. So they get a head start.
    It seems an obvious thing we could do here. Every polling station could count their votes and phone the counts back to Returning Officer just after 10pm. The paper votes could be double-checked the next day. If the result appears close, declare a recount and do it the next day with the paper ballots.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274

    I do find it odd that the French can count the votes of vast underpopulated districts like the Corrèze (1st district François HOLLANDE btw) faster than all the citiy centre districts.

    Apparently voting ends 2 hours later in cities.

    This seems very odd, if anything rural areas should finish later as longer travelling distance to polling station.
    There’s no problem in rural areas . And most rural communes are very small in size and have a higher proportion of polling places than urban areas hence the longer voting hours .
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
    If you wanted to vote for Le Pen's party, you either could or you couldn't. Which is it?
    Correct, you could, you could also for the party of your choice rather than being left with a reduced list of candidates. The FN wasnt going to form a government because a) they probably wouldnt have had the numbers based on the results we have tonight and b) no one would go into coalition with them anyway.

    I would tend to trust the French populous to know where its at. Resentment and victim status is a powerful sustaining force for parties such as FN, dont give them it. They now have an excuse about why they lost, which will just be another reason for their support to cosolidate. The way to beat them is take away their arguments.
    They lost because most people wanted something different. This isn't some kind of Ulster unionist gerrymandering, it was a straight choice.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
    That's thanks to your rightwing American friends, don't you know?

    Take two aspirins and go soak your head. AND try NOT to kick the cat.
    You are trying too hard and not winning here. I said two posts back that I am in US terms firmly Dem (and firmly pro gun control).
    My apology on that point. Missed it due to you being such a humorless a-hole tonight.
    His account seems to have been hacked by his brother Tweedledumb.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    "concerns"

    Just fucking say what you mean.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    But it isn't the far left block of Melenchon!!!
    It is, Melenchon leads it and is as bad as Corbyn and even more economically illiterate and anti Israel and even more pro Putin than Le Pen
    But Melenchon does not lead it. They have no leader. Every single Party in the coalition, apart from LFI agrees. They don't know who the leader is. But it isn't Melenchon.
    It is Melenchon, his LFI party is by far the biggest in it
    It is the biggest. But not by far. Nor even a majority. It's between a third and 40%.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,366
    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
    Well, it's just my subjunctive opinion that you're wrong there; your parents should ask for their money back.
    It has seriously affected his mood.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry

    DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?

    Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!

    Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
    You get my point!
    Sadly it failed to gain enough traction to make significant dents in the Labour majority in 2001. I think they ended up photographing Humphrey (or perhaps a Manchurian-style stand in) with some newspapers to convince the public that they hadn't euthanased him.
    Seeing as how Larry is now 17 year old, Tory fog machine may get another chance of resurrecting (ahem) the "Labour cat-killer danger!" line.

    ADDENDUM

    1724 > "Church in danger!"
    2024 > "Cat in danger!"
    From the land of "People in danger of an average of two mass shootings (defined as 4 or more fatalities) every day of the year." Amusing.
    That's thanks to your rightwing American friends, don't you know?

    Take two aspirins and go soak your head. AND try NOT to kick the cat.
    You are trying too hard and not winning here. I said two posts back that I am in US terms firmly Dem (and firmly pro gun control).
    My apology on that point. Missed it due to you being such a humorless a-hole tonight.
    Sure.

    I think you possibly sound a bit funnier in your own head than comes across on the page. But you have correctly identified me as having no sense of humour, so don't pay me no nevermind.
  • I think you possibly sound a bit funnier in your own head than comes across on the page. But you have correctly identified me as having no sense of humour, so don't pay me no nevermind.

    Glad you've finally got back posting, it took me a while to notice who you are.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342
    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615

    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    Doesn't that depend on how moderate the 'moderate' leftists are.

    How many of them want to return the retirement age to 60 and introduce price caps ?
    It's RN policy to reverse the pension age too,

    They aren't Far Right with every policy. More welfarist but nativist.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,009

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,281

    So, Goodwin reckons the 'elites' have conspired against Le Pen today. That means, presumably, he thinks Melenchon and the other leftists and greens voting for the left bloc are part of this 'elite' conspiring to stop the march of the far right.

    For an academic, he shows a pretty poor grasp of what an 'elite' is. It's not just anybody who doesn't agree with him, as he seems to think.

    Not liking Freedom of Association?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    EPG said:

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    Macron hasn't blocked anything. The French people went out and voted, they voted against Le Pen.
    He did, he withdrew his candidates and told them to back Le Pen's opponent even if from the far left Corbynite Melenchon block
    So are you saying the French people actually wanted to vote for Le Pen but somehow put their ticks in the centrist/left box instead?
    The top and bottom is, if a party that is seen as effectively blacklisted by every other party such is its extremity, yet it still gets the kind of vote it got then there are some serious issues of public concern they are tapping into. Beyond those who cast a vote for it how many within France may also share those concerns but didnt feel they could vote for the FN. Add them up its potentially a sizeable slice of the French populous.

    This win for those opposed to the FN will not address those concerns, rather they may even try to bury them as if they dont exist. So guess what, those concerns will grow.

    The fact the far right is extreme is neither here nor there, I am objecting to the idea they've somehow been "blocked".
    Well in a way they have in that pretty much every other political faction teamed to stop them rather than perhaps trusting to the French people to make free choice between a full slate of candidates. Im sure the French are just as capable of tactical voting and I suspect they would have done the job.
    If you wanted to vote for Le Pen's party, you either could or you couldn't. Which is it?
    Correct, you could, you could also for the party of your choice rather than being left with a reduced list of candidates. The FN wasnt going to form a government because a) they probably wouldnt have had the numbers based on the results we have tonight and b) no one would go into coalition with them anyway.

    I would tend to trust the French populous to know where its at. Resentment and victim status is a powerful sustaining force for parties such as FN, dont give them it. They now have an excuse about why they lost, which will just be another reason for their support to cosolidate. The way to beat them is take away their arguments.
    They lost because most people wanted something different. This isn't some kind of Ulster unionist gerrymandering, it was a straight choice.
    They were going to make that choice anyway with a full slate of candidates. There was always enough opposition to FN to get a result as tonight has proven and they woud have no excuses, no victim status.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,809

    If SKS had any sense, with this massive majority he would immediately scrap the stupid triple lock. But he won't.

    No, he's backed into a corner there. Extend NI to all income - that would raise enough to cover the cost of the triple lock for a few years.

    Reducing the 2.5% element to 0.5% might be a possibility but smacks of underhandedness.
    I can just see NI being extended to all income for future oldies but present oldies being exempted.
    Too complex. And what's the logic? Phase it in over 5 years maybe, alongside the triple lock.
    Not logic but personal fear that I'm going to get financially hit multiple ways while others get protected.

    I'm already assuming that my state pension age will be put back a year which is the equivalent of a £11k hit.

    Now I don't mind too much if all future earnings come under NI but I really don't want NI to be put on any income from my pension fund that I've already saved as that would be a few tens of thousands more.
    It's not on state pension becvause that's how the credits are generated. And to some extent there is a link with company/private pensions through opting out, or there used to be anyway.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
    Echoes of the stunt Pedro Sanchez pulled in Spain last year.

    See the right on the rise (Vox in Spain, RN in France) and do well in a set of secondary elections. Then put the really stark choice before both the voters and the other political parties. Basically, if you don't want these guys to win real power, stop dicking around.

    In broad terms, it seems to have worked.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    Pro_Rata said:

    UK results:

    Surveyed the 65 most Muslim constituencies in the UK (i.e. 10% of the total electorate), per Henry Jackson society.

    - Average Labour vote share drop across the 65 constituencies is 16.5%
    - That is Labour dropped 1.65% national vote share in these places (and given an overall gain of 1.6% gained 3.25% everywhere else)
    - Only gained vote share in 1/65 constituencies: Pendle & Clitheroe
    - Con hold in Keighley probably due to this, though didn't prevent Labour gaining seats such as Wycombe, Burnley, Peterborough despite their reduced vote share
    - Splitting further by 13 seat groupings average vote share loss was: 1-13 most Muslim, -32.2% (including 3 seats losses); seats 14-26, -18.5% (including Ashworth and Streeting); seats 27-39, -14.1% (including Starmer); seats 40-52, -9.4%; seats 53-65, -8.5%.

    Keighley. This and the closure of the household waste recycling centre in Ilkley.

    Last time I mention it. But I did suggest it as a potential Tory hold for these two reasons.
    The LOL bit is that Labour's candidate in Keighley (lost by 1,625) was John Grogan - formerly MP for Selby (won by 10,195).

    Was there no members of the Cryer family for Labour to have as a candidate ?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,366
    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342

    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
    If the run off is between Le Pen and a centrist, the centrist wins. If the run off is between Le Pen and Melenchon, or similar, Le Pen wins.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    Doesn't that depend on how moderate the 'moderate' leftists are.

    How many of them want to return the retirement age to 60 and introduce price caps ?
    No. I am simply agreeing with DixieDean and JohnO that a number of posters don't seem to understand that the NFP is a fairly wide coalition on the left including Greens and the old PS of Hollande. Melanchon certainly is part of it but only about a third of it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
    He's a big mouth, very like Nigel Farage in that respect.

    BUT election blocs & parties, are NOT always led by the biggest loudmouth, Boris Johnson and Donald Trump notwithstanding.
  • Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No you see it's a victory for whichever side you naturally support any way.

    HYUFD saying he'd voted actively for Le Pen tells us all you need to know.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
    Just like Corbyn asserted he was the next PM.
    Doesn't make it so.
  • I proclaim I slept with Dua Lipa.

    It doesn't make it true.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342

    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
    Echoes of the stunt Pedro Sanchez pulled in Spain last year.

    See the right on the rise (Vox in Spain, RN in France) and do well in a set of secondary elections. Then put the really stark choice before both the voters and the other political parties. Basically, if you don't want these guys to win real power, stop dicking around.

    In broad terms, it seems to have worked.
    It failed. Macron has gone backwards.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,577
    edited July 7
    If you break it down to the individual parties, the RN are still the biggest force. At present Macron's party only has 73, the socialist party has 56 and Melenchon has 55.

    https://www.francetvinfo.fr/elections/legislatives/infographies-resultats-des-elections-legislatives-2024-decouvrez-en-direct-la-composition-de-l-assemblee-nationale_6645201.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342

    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No indeed. It’s not a victory for anyone.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
    She has had a shot before and missed, no reason to believe 2027 will be any different
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
    There's more to someone being a leader than them saying it live on telly.

    Unless, I suppose, they have an army that has taken over the studios.

    Melenchon may think he is the leader, and may well be awfully miffed when the rest of the left alliance don't follow him, but that's about his delusion and nothing else.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    There are no LDs in his block, the French LDs are basically Macron's party. Melenchon's block is a combination of his party and Socialists
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 7
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:
    The left is up about 40 seats on 2022. RN is up 55. The Macronists down about 90. This a very Pyrrhic victory for Macron.

    Overall, parties of the Right look set to have a plurality in the Assembly. If indeed, LR hate Macron, and LFI hate Macron, I don’t see where a majority can be found.
    Not sure. Macron's own party minority government had run into the sands. He held an election to determine another government he could work with that didn't include Le Pen. His gamble seems to have paid off at least to that extent. Another plus he's stopped the Le Pen momentum after her party's stunning results in the Euro elections.

    There is a possibility of new left dominated government he can work with but it could be just as stalemated as his previous Ensemble government.

    Overall I suspect between better than neutral to as successful as he could hope to be in the circumstances.

    Edit LR don't hate Macron, and LFI don't hate Macron, at least at the voter level. I posted this analysis earlier.

    https://x.com/mathieugallard/status/1810010894937575572
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
    Well, it's just my subjunctive opinion that you're wrong there; your parents should ask for their money back.
    Someone should tell Skee-Lo they need to change their lyrics
    "I wish I were a little bit taller, I wish I were a baller"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    Doesn't that depend on how moderate the 'moderate' leftists are.

    How many of them want to return the retirement age to 60 and introduce price caps ?
    It's RN policy to reverse the pension age too,

    They aren't Far Right with every policy. More welfarist but nativist.
    Indeed.

    I keep saying that there's a big majority for 'unsafe' economics in France.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    Left 169
    Macron 145
    RN 140
    42 to come.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252

    I proclaim I slept with Dua Lipa.

    It doesn't make it true.

    Channeling your inner Leon?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,812

    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No. No-one has won. Which is good in one way (not convinced a left or RN government is good either way) but there is no stable government and France is tremendously divided.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,009
    dixiedean said:

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
    Just like Corbyn asserted he was the next PM.
    Doesn't make it so.
    I agree but he did proclaim it live on BBC

    Mind you it seems a divided nation with no agreement on how it moves forward
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252

    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No you see it's a victory for whichever side you naturally support any way.

    HYUFD saying he'd voted actively for Le Pen tells us all you need to know.
    Does he get a vote?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
    Well, it's just my subjunctive opinion that you're wrong there; your parents should ask for their money back.
    You are wrong, as I am part French by heritage it was not a completely imaginary situation so I was could be used
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,366
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No indeed. It’s not a victory for anyone.
    Agree. But given the expectations of a week ago, it's RN/Le Pen that will be most disappointed by tonight's result.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,342
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:
    The left is up about 40 seats on 2022. RN is up 55. The Macronists down about 90. This a very Pyrrhic victory for Macron.

    Overall, parties of the Right look set to have a plurality in the Assembly. If indeed, LR hate Macron, and LFI hate Macron, I don’t see where a majority can be found.
    Not sure. Macron's own party minority government had run into the sands. He held an election to determine another government he could work with that didn't include Le Pen. His gamble seems to have paid off at least to that extent. Another plus he's stopped the Le Pen momentum after her party's stunning results in the Euro elections.

    There is a possibility of new left dominated government he can work with but it could be just as stalemated as his previous Ensemble government.

    Overall I suspect between better than neutral to as successful as he could hope to be in the circumstances.
    But now, his support base has shrunk further.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    I have now watched all four Beverly Hills Cop films + the unaired TV pilot (you can find it on YouTube). I recommend it as a post-election detox (but leave out film 3).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,809
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utter disaster in the French legislative elections. All Macron's trying to block Le Pen's party winning them has resulted in is instead first place taken by the far left block of Melenchon. While tonight Macron's PM has had to tender his resignation anyway

    I imagine there may be a few seats where anti-RN voters have voted LR.

    The problem now is any Governkment formed will need to include either RN or NFP. I imagine Macron is hoping to cobble together something with NFP and LR but, as a man of the centre-right, would you prefer LR to support a minority RN government?

    It might be a position you have to face here in 2029 - would you, as a Conservative, support your party doing a deal with a minority Farage-led Reform Government?

    In other European countries, the established centre right party has been dominant over the insurgent populist anti-immigrant party (Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden) but in France the roles are reversed.
    I would vote for Le Pen over Melenchon he is that awful if I was French. I would prefer an LR and Ensemble centre to centre right government but it lacks the numbers.

    In Italy of course the populist right party of Meloni leads a government with the centre right Forza Italia.

    "...if I were French". Didn't they teach you anything at grammar school?
    I am part French by heritage so grammatically it was not an unrealistic statement and I was could still be used and I went to public school not grammar school
    Well, it's just my subjunctive opinion that you're wrong there; your parents should ask for their money back.
    You are wrong, as I am part French by heritage it was not a completely imaginary situation so I was could be used
    I'm descended from some biped in the Rift Valley of East Africa. On your logic I get a vote in Kenya.

    *expectant*
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    French stock and bond "gilts" markets will be entertaining tomorrow.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874

    Sean_F said:

    The left will hold 190-200 seats, out of 577. It’s no left wing victory.

    The right will hold 200-210.

    So it's no right-wing victory either.
    No you see it's a victory for whichever side you naturally support any way.

    HYUFD saying he'd voted actively for Le Pen tells us all you need to know.
    As would 65% of French over Melenchon according to this Cluster17 poll

    https://www.commission-des-sondages.fr/notices/files/notices/2024/avril/9753-pdt-ruffin-cluster-17-picardie-debout-21-avril-2024.pdf
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Yokes said:

    dixiedean said:

    74 results to go. RN now in third. 148/142/137.

    I'm calling peak Le Pen tonight. Outwitted by the combined forces of Macron and the left, she won't win the next presidential election.
    It's the equivalent high point of that Hartlepool by-election win for Boris.
    She has had a shot before and missed, no reason to believe 2027 will be any different
    I’m sure she’ll find some other specious snowflakery to blame her loss on

    That’s the thing with the hard right. Constant grievance; toys permanently out the pram.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633
    Wondering if the UK result had an impact in France. If one thing can unify the French it is not to be outdone by the Brits.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Isn't claiming Melenchon is the leader a bit like claiming Corbyn is. I suppose if you vote all of the Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, SNP etc together he COULD lead it but I highly doubt he would.

    Melenchon proclaimed it live on BBC
    There's more to someone being a leader than them saying it live on telly.

    Unless, I suppose, they have an army that has taken over the studios.

    Melenchon may think he is the leader, and may well be awfully miffed when the rest of the left alliance don't follow him, but that's about his delusion and nothing else.
    My guess is that Melenchon is about as personally popular with majority of NFP deputies (and perhaps those of his own party) as poo on one's shoe.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    JohnO said:

    Don't forget that the hard left component of the NPF is probably just over a third of the total. The more moderate PS, Greens and even the rump of the Communists will have a clear majority of its MPs. That won't make forming a government any easier but whatever emerges will not be extreme dominated.

    So many on here don't seem to understand that.
    Doesn't that depend on how moderate the 'moderate' leftists are.

    How many of them want to return the retirement age to 60 and introduce price caps ?
    It's RN policy to reverse the pension age too,

    They aren't Far Right with every policy. More welfarist but nativist.
    Indeed.

    I keep saying that there's a big majority for 'unsafe' economics in France.
    And yet.
    Their economy seems to troll along like ours.
    With noticeably better public services.
    So who's unsafe?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332

    I have now watched all four Beverly Hills Cop films + the unaired TV pilot (you can find it on YouTube). I recommend it as a post-election detox (but leave out film 3).

    Under no circumstances can I be watching the 4th in the series if there is not a new Harold Faltermeyer score for it.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited July 7
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:
    The left is up about 40 seats on 2022. RN is up 55. The Macronists down about 90. This a very Pyrrhic victory for Macron.

    Overall, parties of the Right look set to have a plurality in the Assembly. If indeed, LR hate Macron, and LFI hate Macron, I don’t see where a majority can be found.
    Not sure. Macron's own party minority government had run into the sands. He held an election to determine another government he could work with that didn't include Le Pen. His gamble seems to have paid off at least to that extent. Another plus he's stopped the Le Pen momentum after her party's stunning results in the Euro elections.

    There is a possibility of new left dominated government he can work with but it could be just as stalemated as his previous Ensemble government.

    Overall I suspect between better than neutral to as successful as he could hope to be in the circumstances.
    But now, his support base has shrunk further.
    Plus if he forms a government between his party and the hard left NFP it will send the centrist and centre right liberal voters he and his party have won since 2017 rushing back to the centre right Les Republicains who have been out of power in France since 2012
This discussion has been closed.