I was in the gym listening in the municipal sauna to the political discussion. Essentially people were complaining about how the school let children choose their gender at age 5, that there will be no men in 20 years, just people with a penis as masculinity is being destroyed. Then the discussion moved on to how useless EV's are and the injustice of 'road tax', only 17% of it apparently gets spent on repairing the roads, everything else is spent on other things.
This did serve to reinforce my sense that the views held by the Reform party are quite widespread. It used to be that the Conservative party represented them but they went 'woke' in 2021 and I think this is a big historic cause of the current popularity of the Reform party. Had the tories just stuck with the strategy set out in 2019 they may be in a better position now.
They went woke after the 2005 election when Cameron won and ended the memberships right to choose candidates and imposed various proto lib dems and sundry public school nice but dims and spivs from central A lists on the local associations.
Now it has come home to roost.
Johnson and Cameron were significantly more "woke" than Sunak who just produced the worst result in the Conservatives' history.
Perhaps you need to move on from the culture wars and think about why you actually lost as opposed to arguments you rehearse in front of the mirror every morning.
One of the reasons they lost was undoubtedly that they lost votes to the Reform Party; any serious analysis has to factor that in.
Labour to seek joint declaration with EU on wide-ranging security pact
Exclusive: Foreign secretary says deal would allow UK work more closely with bloc on issues such as defence and energy
Labour is seeking a sweeping joint declaration with the EU to usher in a wide-ranging security pact covering defence, energy, the climate crisis, pandemics and even illegal migration, the foreign secretary, David Lammy, has said.
As part of the new government’s plan to reset its relations with the EU and bring “an end to the Brexit era”, Lammy told the Guardian that a broadly defined security deal would not undermine Labour’s commitment to remain outside the EU’s single market and customs union.
Under Labour plans, the pact would see the UK work more closely with the bloc on a slew of areas related to security, ideally without the need for a legally binding deal, which could take years to agree.
Lammy has also accepted an invitation from the EU foreign affairs chief, Josep Borrell, to attend the September meeting of the EU foreign affairs council – something that was rejected by the previous Conservative government.
It is rare for non-EU states to attend the foreign affairs council, and Labour thinks it may be possible to go on an irregular basis if the planned security pact develops
Hmm. Farage will have to object to this, but how does he do so without opening himself to the charge that he's compromising national security? Sir Keir will presumably also want this to go to some kind of parliamentary vote to flush Reform out that way. If Reform don't vote in favour then the attack ads will write themselves. Tricky.
Yes. And it was good to see the new British Defence Secretary in Odesa with the promise of continuing support, and the new ministers from the Netherlands likewise.
Be fascinating to think what would happen if we had the French system with about 500+ run-off elections due next week with every combination of run-off candidates imaginable.
Some results are easy to work out like IDS would be out of a job. OTOH Liz Truss might have survived.
The French election is in reality, a shift to both Right and Left. Macron has not done as badly as seemed likely, but he’s still in a worse position than a month ago.
One of the reasons they lost was undoubtedly that they lost votes to the Reform Party; any serious analysis has to factor that in.
The first place the Tories have gone wrong is assuming these voters are Tory voters or would have only voted Tory if it weren't for X. This is a silly analysis.
Labour to seek joint declaration with EU on wide-ranging security pact
Exclusive: Foreign secretary says deal would allow UK work more closely with bloc on issues such as defence and energy
Labour is seeking a sweeping joint declaration with the EU to usher in a wide-ranging security pact covering defence, energy, the climate crisis, pandemics and even illegal migration, the foreign secretary, David Lammy, has said.
As part of the new government’s plan to reset its relations with the EU and bring “an end to the Brexit era”, Lammy told the Guardian that a broadly defined security deal would not undermine Labour’s commitment to remain outside the EU’s single market and customs union.
Under Labour plans, the pact would see the UK work more closely with the bloc on a slew of areas related to security, ideally without the need for a legally binding deal, which could take years to agree.
Lammy has also accepted an invitation from the EU foreign affairs chief, Josep Borrell, to attend the September meeting of the EU foreign affairs council – something that was rejected by the previous Conservative government.
It is rare for non-EU states to attend the foreign affairs council, and Labour thinks it may be possible to go on an irregular basis if the planned security pact develops
Labour to seek joint declaration with EU on wide-ranging security pact
Exclusive: Foreign secretary says deal would allow UK work more closely with bloc on issues such as defence and energy
Labour is seeking a sweeping joint declaration with the EU to usher in a wide-ranging security pact covering defence, energy, the climate crisis, pandemics and even illegal migration, the foreign secretary, David Lammy, has said.
As part of the new government’s plan to reset its relations with the EU and bring “an end to the Brexit era”, Lammy told the Guardian that a broadly defined security deal would not undermine Labour’s commitment to remain outside the EU’s single market and customs union.
Under Labour plans, the pact would see the UK work more closely with the bloc on a slew of areas related to security, ideally without the need for a legally binding deal, which could take years to agree.
Lammy has also accepted an invitation from the EU foreign affairs chief, Josep Borrell, to attend the September meeting of the EU foreign affairs council – something that was rejected by the previous Conservative government.
It is rare for non-EU states to attend the foreign affairs council, and Labour thinks it may be possible to go on an irregular basis if the planned security pact develops
I love it. Everybody telling us that Labour won't go near rejoin nor a de facto rejoin for at least 3 generations, and we get this in the first 48 hours. Personally I am delighted.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
All you and @Heathener do is moan about me, I’m starting to suspect you are two sock puppets I have cleverly invented so as to get even more attention, but somehow I did it without realising. That’s how smart I am. Heh
I was in the gym listening in the municipal sauna to the political discussion. Essentially people were complaining about how the school let children choose their gender at age 5, that there will be no men in 20 years, just people with a penis as masculinity is being destroyed. Then the discussion moved on to how useless EV's are and the injustice of 'road tax', only 17% of it apparently gets spent on repairing the roads, everything else is spent on other things.
This did serve to reinforce my sense that the views held by the Reform party are quite widespread. It used to be that the Conservative party represented them but they went 'woke' in 2021 and I think this is a big historic cause of the current popularity of the Reform party. Had the tories just stuck with the strategy set out in 2019 they may be in a better position now.
They went woke after the 2005 election when Cameron won and ended the memberships right to choose candidates and imposed various proto lib dems and sundry public school nice but dims and spivs from central A lists on the local associations.
Now it has come home to roost.
Johnson and Cameron were significantly more "woke" than Sunak who just produced the worst result in the Conservatives' history.
Perhaps you need to move on from the culture wars and think about why you actually lost as opposed to arguments you rehearse in front of the mirror every morning.
I don't think Sunak or Johnson had the remotest interest in wokery. Cameron pretended to, to shore up his Heir to Blair credentials, but unconvincingly.
Do you honestly think with the recent election results that there is any mileage in the anti-woke stuff? Really?
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
I was in the gym listening in the municipal sauna to the political discussion. Essentially people were complaining about how the school let children choose their gender at age 5, that there will be no men in 20 years, just people with a penis as masculinity is being destroyed. Then the discussion moved on to how useless EV's are and the injustice of 'road tax', only 17% of it apparently gets spent on repairing the roads, everything else is spent on other things.
This did serve to reinforce my sense that the views held by the Reform party are quite widespread. It used to be that the Conservative party represented them but they went 'woke' in 2021 and I think this is a big historic cause of the current popularity of the Reform party. Had the tories just stuck with the strategy set out in 2019 they may be in a better position now.
They went woke after the 2005 election when Cameron won and ended the memberships right to choose candidates and imposed various proto lib dems and sundry public school nice but dims and spivs from central A lists on the local associations.
Now it has come home to roost.
Johnson and Cameron were significantly more "woke" than Sunak who just produced the worst result in the Conservatives' history.
Perhaps you need to move on from the culture wars and think about why you actually lost as opposed to arguments you rehearse in front of the mirror every morning.
I don't think Sunak or Johnson had the remotest interest in wokery. Cameron pretended to, to shore up his Heir to Blair credentials, but unconvincingly.
Do you honestly think with the recent election results that there is any mileage in the anti-woke stuff? Really?
Pretty toxic in what is now the Yellow Wall.
It was toxic everywhere. People go "the NHS is broken" and the Tories go "don't you care what SKS thinks a man is?".
The Tories lost for being incompetent and not understanding the needs of the public. Woke is not what the public care about it, it is a fringe issue that loses more votes than it gains.
I was in the gym listening in the municipal sauna to the political discussion. Essentially people were complaining about how the school let children choose their gender at age 5, that there will be no men in 20 years, just people with a penis as masculinity is being destroyed. Then the discussion moved on to how useless EV's are and the injustice of 'road tax', only 17% of it apparently gets spent on repairing the roads, everything else is spent on other things.
This did serve to reinforce my sense that the views held by the Reform party are quite widespread. It used to be that the Conservative party represented them but they went 'woke' in 2021 and I think this is a big historic cause of the current popularity of the Reform party. Had the tories just stuck with the strategy set out in 2019 they may be in a better position now.
They went woke after the 2005 election when Cameron won and ended the memberships right to choose candidates and imposed various proto lib dems and sundry public school nice but dims and spivs from central A lists on the local associations.
Now it has come home to roost.
Johnson and Cameron were significantly more "woke" than Sunak who just produced the worst result in the Conservatives' history.
Perhaps you need to move on from the culture wars and think about why you actually lost as opposed to arguments you rehearse in front of the mirror every morning.
I don't think Sunak or Johnson had the remotest interest in wokery. Cameron pretended to, to shore up his Heir to Blair credentials, but unconvincingly.
Do you honestly think with the recent election results that there is any mileage in the anti-woke stuff? Really?
Pretty toxic in what is now the Yellow Wall.
Point of order: Is that vast wall across the south yellow or orange? Time for the LibDems to come off the fence.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
Don't go, I really enjoy reading your posts.
That's kind but not what I'm seeking. It's already decided. This is me saying goodbye.
Sorry to see you go but over the course of a week a certain poster spamming the site with his medical opinion over Biden has been bollocks. Knocking it on the head makes sense to me too.
That age profile is by no means as bad for the right as seemed likely two months ago.
I struggle to see how it's not a disaster. The bulk of working age people now and over the next decade despise the Tories and everything they stand for. The Tories now have no ability to build houses because they are not in government.
Be fascinating to think what would happen if we had the French system with about 500+ run-off elections due next week with every combination of run-off candidates imaginable.
Some results are easy to work out like IDS would be out of a job. OTOH Liz Truss might have survived.
Swings and roundabouts.
Agreed, a lot would be very difficult to predict. I would like to have know how the Reform vote would have split in Con-Lab contests. I don't think it would have been the straight switch to the Tories that some believe. 2-1 would be my guess but we shall never know.
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
Don't go, I really enjoy reading your posts.
That's kind but not what I'm seeking. It's already decided. This is me saying goodbye.
Sorry to see you go but over the course of a week a certain poster spamming the site with his medical opinion over Biden has been bollocks. Knocking it on the head makes sense to me too.
You don't have to read his posts.
This site is somewhere you get to read views well out of your comfort zone, often well elucidated, not an echo chamber.
It is possible to disagree with the view without disliking the poster.
Yes. And it was good to see the new British Defence Secretary in Odesa with the promise of continuing support, and the new ministers from the Netherlands likewise.
And rather amusing to see him solemnly lecturing China as to what they should be doing as regards the situation there.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
Don't go, I really enjoy reading your posts.
That's kind but not what I'm seeking. It's already decided. This is me saying goodbye.
Sorry to see you go but over the course of a week a certain poster spamming the site with his medical opinion over Biden has been bollocks. Knocking it on the head makes sense to me too.
FFS the now-undeniable senility of the US President is the biggest political story of the year. Even bigger than the French and Uk elections, as it means the victory of Donald Trump is now much more likely; unless the Dems can belatedly change course. And - even as a right winger - I can see that a second Trump presidency is potentially a global catastrophe. it is that bad
Are we meant to ignore it? Does it just annoy you that I said he was senile a year ago? Or is it simply that you don’t like news that makes you uncomfortable? What??
Attitudes like yours - “look away, don’t talk about, it’s Trumpite propaganda” - have allowed the Democrats to conceal his problems, a foolish and damaging policy which has - as we now realise - made everything considerably worse
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
As we all know, the Conservative Party is a lobby organisation for wealthy pensioners who own their own homes. It's useless to just about everyone else, save perhaps for heirs waiting to collect vast inheritances when the aforementioned pensioners join the choir celestial.
I'm actually surprised they're doing as well as 14% amongst the 18-24 cohort, given that the Tories' main manifesto contribution on youth issues was a pledge to exploit school leavers either as cheap cannon fodder for the army, or as slave labour to plug gaps in creaking public services.
One of the reasons I’m stepping back from this forum is the ridiculous aggression and downright abuse that accompanies @Leon ’s certitude.
He ‘may’ be right about Biden although he is not a medic. He might be right about various other things, but it’s all clouded in Trumpian aggression and abuse. He has been completely wrong about countless things including this latest aggression over the victory of the Far Right in France.
I’m tired of the nonsense. This was one of the few places left on the internet where people of different persuasions could objectively discuss the direction of politics in a way that informed not only the debate but also their bets.
I’ll leave it there.
Enjoy yourselves and be kind. And don’t believe all the extremists. There are enough decent people still left in this world, even across La Manche.
I feel the same. I won't be here again after today. That's a guarantee.
All you and @Heathener do is moan about me, I’m starting to suspect you are two sock puppets I have cleverly invented so as to get even more attention, but somehow I did it without realising. That’s how smart I am. Heh
I think there is a fairly hard ceiling in France for NR support at 40%, regardless of how bad things might get 40% is the limit. That means no NR president and no NR majority but it is extremely worrying that 40% of people in France are ready to vote for NR and that there's no party in the centre that is defusing their support. They've just ignored the issues driving that support and this is the result. It's a warning to everyone in Europe right now, issues around immigration, asylum and housing costs all need to be taken seriously.
As we all know, the Conservative Party is a lobby organisation for wealthy pensioners who own their own homes. It's useless to just about everyone else, save perhaps for heirs waiting to collect vast inheritances when the aforementioned pensioners join the choir celestial.
I'm actually surprised they're doing as well as 14% amongst the 18-24 cohort, given that the Tories' main manifesto contribution on youth issues was a pledge to exploit school leavers either as cheap cannon fodder for the army, or as slave labour to plug gaps in creaking public services.
I can tell you with categorical assurance that the national service policy has damaged the standing with the 16-30 bracket and will not be forgotten. A massive mis-step for the long term of the Tories.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
It's been 72 hours. I know we've all been rushing to do detailed analysis but the politicians themselves need time to rest and reflect.
I think there is a fairly hard ceiling in France for NR support at 40%, regardless of how bad things might get 40% is the limit. That means no NR president and no NR majority but it is extremely worrying that 40% of people in France are ready to vote for NR and that there's no party in the centre that is defusing their support. They've just ignored the issues driving that support and this is the result. It's a warning to everyone in Europe right now, issues around immigration, asylum and housing costs all need to be taken seriously.
The centre needs to step up, not step away. If SKS does not deal with controlling immigration (which being outside the EU will help him with), Reform will many more seats next time.
Isn't that rather more young people voting Conservative than predicted ?
By who(m)?
By opinion polls reported here.
No details I afraid so my memory might be wrong IIRC there were predictions of below 10% for the youngest age group.
Presumably SOME predictions of below 10% for the yout?
Note that subsample(s) would logically have pretty high margin of error; meaning that 14% youth-Con vote may well be within margin(s) of error for youngest voter cohort.
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
It's been 72 hours. I know we've all been rushing to do detailed analysis but the politicians themselves need time to rest and reflect.
Do you think Jenrick and Braverman amongst others have the intelligence to do it, really?
I was in the gym listening in the municipal sauna to the political discussion. Essentially people were complaining about how the school let children choose their gender at age 5, that there will be no men in 20 years, just people with a penis as masculinity is being destroyed. Then the discussion moved on to how useless EV's are and the injustice of 'road tax', only 17% of it apparently gets spent on repairing the roads, everything else is spent on other things.
This did serve to reinforce my sense that the views held by the Reform party are quite widespread. It used to be that the Conservative party represented them but they went 'woke' in 2021 and I think this is a big historic cause of the current popularity of the Reform party. Had the tories just stuck with the strategy set out in 2019 they may be in a better position now.
They went woke after the 2005 election when Cameron won and ended the memberships right to choose candidates and imposed various proto lib dems and sundry public school nice but dims and spivs from central A lists on the local associations.
Now it has come home to roost.
Johnson and Cameron were significantly more "woke" than Sunak who just produced the worst result in the Conservatives' history.
Perhaps you need to move on from the culture wars and think about why you actually lost as opposed to arguments you rehearse in front of the mirror every morning.
I don't think Sunak or Johnson had the remotest interest in wokery. Cameron pretended to, to shore up his Heir to Blair credentials, but unconvincingly.
Do you honestly think with the recent election results that there is any mileage in the anti-woke stuff? Really?
Pretty toxic in what is now the Yellow Wall.
Though not a regular Lib Dem voter the most cheery thing for me about the UK election has been the number of seats gained by the Lib Dems. More than the Labour vote which attracts some pretty uncomfortable bedfellows the Lib Dems are the ones with the purist credentials. Not racist and pretty well 100% anti Brexit
Yes. And it was good to see the new British Defence Secretary in Odesa with the promise of continuing support, and the new ministers from the Netherlands likewise.
And rather amusing to see him solemnly lecturing China as to what they should be doing as regards the situation there.
What would you recommend; sending Xi a candy-gram or fruit-basket?
OT, this is fascinating news. I'm not so keen on the far left but seeing Macron's lot apparently beating the fashy right is very welcome news and I'm happy with it. It just goes to show that the far right can often only function in an atmosphere of inevitability, and that when brave men and women stand up against them and say "non", they can be stopped.
No, the rise of the right is not inevitable. It never was.
Ils ne passeront pas? Précisément! La France est de retour, baby!
Also sorry to see you go @Farooq but tbh also don’t blame you; I have given up most social media; here and a few discord groups are my only online convo spaces really.
I’m also happy with this apparent outcome, and enjoying the near-palpable sense of disappointment on the media’s part who have been dampening their collective helmet at the prospect of La Fash Francaise for weeks now.
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
You seem obsessed by the conservative party when Starmer has just won a landslide and 5 year term
As far as 'slavish' support for the elderly Starmer is on the same page and as was pointed out to him he had a choice to support the 3d child benefit but has chosen the elderly and triple lock instead
I have no idea what will happen in the conservative party nor for that matter Reform but as someone said earlier it is hardly of an immediate concern when Starmer can do anything he choses and all the opposition including the Lib Dems are irrelevant
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
It's been 72 hours. I know we've all been rushing to do detailed analysis but the politicians themselves need time to rest and reflect.
Do you think Jenrick and Braverman amongst others have the intelligence to do it, really?
I'd be backing Hunt or Tom T if I were a Tory.
At the moment, those who are pontificating from within the Conservative Party are doing so for personal advantage. I doubt they have even begun to think through what happened and why it happened and what the solutions to the party's problems might be and where they might be found.
After weeks of campaigning, I suspect most of them need sleep, time with their families and time to think and you don't get any of that turning up on Sunday political shows.
This forum seems full of people with the answers but I doubr we're any better off.
Best just to forget the Conservative Party for a few weeks and get on with the real political business.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
A masterstroke, no. Is he a very lucky general, yes.
I think there is a fairly hard ceiling in France for NR support at 40%, regardless of how bad things might get 40% is the limit. That means no NR president and no NR majority but it is extremely worrying that 40% of people in France are ready to vote for NR and that there's no party in the centre that is defusing their support. They've just ignored the issues driving that support and this is the result. It's a warning to everyone in Europe right now, issues around immigration, asylum and housing costs all need to be taken seriously.
The centre needs to step up, not step away. If SKS does not deal with controlling immigration (which being outside the EU will help him with), Reform will many more seats next time.
And they'll win the votes from Labour next time rather than the Tories so the 15% ceiling I think they had this time becomes more like 20% at which point 4 seats becomes more like 150.
Yes. And it was good to see the new British Defence Secretary in Odesa with the promise of continuing support, and the new ministers from the Netherlands likewise.
And rather amusing to see him solemnly lecturing China as to what they should be doing as regards the situation there.
What would you recommend; sending Xi a candy-gram or fruit-basket?
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
It's been 72 hours. I know we've all been rushing to do detailed analysis but the politicians themselves need time to rest and reflect.
Do you think Jenrick and Braverman amongst others have the intelligence to do it, really?
The issue for the Tories now is that if they want to win back voters under the age of 65, they are going to have to about turn on their slavish support for the elderly. I am not seeing signs they are wanting to do that, it still seems like collective denial about what has happened.
It's been 72 hours. I know we've all been rushing to do detailed analysis but the politicians themselves need time to rest and reflect.
Do you think Jenrick and Braverman amongst others have the intelligence to do it, really?
I'd be backing Hunt or Tom T if I were a Tory.
Do we know what proportion of the 121 surviving tories are on which wing of the party?
That will surely tell us the likely top two candidates.
I think there is a fairly hard ceiling in France for NR support at 40%, regardless of how bad things might get 40% is the limit. That means no NR president and no NR majority but it is extremely worrying that 40% of people in France are ready to vote for NR and that there's no party in the centre that is defusing their support. They've just ignored the issues driving that support and this is the result. It's a warning to everyone in Europe right now, issues around immigration, asylum and housing costs all need to be taken seriously.
The centre needs to step up, not step away. If SKS does not deal with controlling immigration (which being outside the EU will help him with), Reform will many more seats next time.
And they'll win the votes from Labour next time rather than the Tories so the 15% ceiling I think they had this time becomes more like 20% at which point 4 seats becomes more like 150.
Yes, my analysis is that this time Reform did not cannibalise Labour votes - but they have the potential to. However, I think based on my reading today, SKS and McSweeney are well aware of the threat, so hopefully they have a plan.
Isn't that rather more young people voting Conservative than predicted ?
By who(m)?
By opinion polls reported here.
No details I afraid so my memory might be wrong IIRC there were predictions of below 10% for the youngest age group.
Presumably SOME predictions of below 10% for the yout?
Note that subsample(s) would logically have pretty high margin of error; meaning that 14% youth-Con vote may well be within margin(s) of error for youngest voter cohort.
Well I don't know but Sean Fear says its a swing to the right since 2019 so I'll leave it at that.
Isn't that rather more young people voting Conservative than predicted ?
The key numbers are the 65+ demographic - in 2019 64% voted for Boris Johnson against 17% for Corbyn. The swing away from the Conservatives to the LDs and Reform is significant in explaining why so many affluent seats in southern and eastern England went LD.
I'd be looking at the correlation between LD gains and the demographic profile of a seat.
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
Exit poll said 134-152. So far they have 131 with 123 seats to go.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
A masterstroke, no. Is he a very lucky general, yes.
He gambled on the people of France, and he was right. Well played, Manu. Now France to win Euro 2024 and they'll be dancing on the streets of Paris.
I thought you were going? No need to drag it out, old bean
PR would also be an essential part of any reforms SKS needs to make. If he's going to include 16 and 17 year olds which I strongly support, proper electoral reform must also take place.
Founded a polling company with the worst record of any pollster and thought Le Pen was a shoe in and she's losing.
He is a grade A prat.
Goodwin is a mixed bag, and needs a directional shift. As a politics academic who wrote readable books about the rise and meaning of populism he seems to me to have found a field which was simultaneously important, interesting, ignored and sold books. That was and is excellent.
He should have stuck to his last, and provided the intellectual foundations of a much needed new conservatism, which cannot possibly be based on pretending there are simple solutions to complex problems. Which is why understanding Reform and co is very different from joining their agenda.
I would like Goodwin to get out of selling subscriptions to pop substacks and polling, and write hard books and articles on how a conservative, rightist agenda can be turned into hard and detailed policy with proper underpinning in political philosophy. This is what academics are for.
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
They’re not gonna hit 200, I don’t think?
But they will do well in the context of prior elections
They have, however, played the expectations game really badly
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
Exit poll said 134-152. So far they have 131 with 123 seats to go.
Isn't that rather more young people voting Conservative than predicted ?
The key numbers are the 65+ demographic - in 2019 64% voted for Boris Johnson against 17% for Corbyn. The swing away from the Conservatives to the LDs and Reform is significant in explaining why so many affluent seats in southern and eastern England went LD.
I'd be looking at the correlation between LD gains and the demographic profile of a seat.
No gratitude from too many oldies perhaps ?
Or maybe they have high enough standards that they were repulsed by the misconduct of the Conservatives ?
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
Exit poll said 134-152. So far they have 131 with 123 seats to go.
That's for the seats that are still up for grab, they won a fair number in the first round.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
A masterstroke, no. Is he a very lucky general, yes.
He gambled on the people of France, and he was right. Well played, Manu. Now France to win Euro 2024 and they'll be dancing on the streets of Paris.
I thought you were going? No need to drag it out, old bean
"after today". You may well have to endure another three and a half hours of me.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
A masterstroke, no. Is he a very lucky general, yes.
He gambled on the people of France, and he was right. Well played, Manu. Now France to win Euro 2024 and they'll be dancing on the streets of Paris.
His PM is resigning in the morning. He will have to try some form of cohabitation with the socialist grouping about whom he has always been incredibly rude. He has lost control of domestic policy. But yes, he has proved that a majority of the French do not support the far right.
Isn't that rather more young people voting Conservative than predicted ?
By who(m)?
By opinion polls reported here.
No details I afraid so my memory might be wrong IIRC there were predictions of below 10% for the youngest age group.
Presumably SOME predictions of below 10% for the yout?
Note that subsample(s) would logically have pretty high margin of error; meaning that 14% youth-Con vote may well be within margin(s) of error for youngest voter cohort.
Well I don't know but Sean Fear says its a swing to the right since 2019 so I'll leave it at that.
As usual, @Sean_F is overegging the Conservative side of the story.
In 2019, the 18-24 age group voted 62% Labour, 19% Conservative, 9% LD and 10% Others. The Focaldata numbers are Labour 47%, Conservative 14%, Green 14%, Reform 11% and LD 8%.
Yes, a 5% swing to Conservative from Labour but Conservatives still down among younger voters and tied with Greens who are the big winners (Reform did well). Again, look at where the Greens won or did well and see the demographic profile of the seat - may be informative.
I’m sorry to see Farooq go. He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors. It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
You're not wrong but let me be absolutely clear: this isn't a "me or him" thing. I'm off and not coming back no matter what happens. I'm not asking for anything, just giving the courtesy of saying goodbye before I delete my account.
Now let's get back to talking about France. I'm not here to be the centre of attention.
If this French result is as it appears, calling the election has been a masterstroke by Macron. We saw Sanchez do something similar recently in Spain. If only Rishi had done the s... oh he did. Oh well. Two out of three ain't bad.
A masterstroke, no. Is he a very lucky general, yes.
He gambled on the people of France, and he was right. Well played, Manu. Now France to win Euro 2024 and they'll be dancing on the streets of Paris.
His PM is resigning in the morning. He will have to try some form of cohabitation with the socialist grouping about whom he has always been incredibly rude. He has lost control of domestic policy. But yes, he has proved that a majority of the French do not support the far right.
If SKS had any sense, with this massive majority he would immediately scrap the stupid triple lock. But he won't.
No, he's backed into a corner there. Extend NI to all income - that would raise enough to cover the cost of the triple lock for a few years.
Reducing the 2.5% element to 0.5% might be a possibility but smacks of underhandedness.
Extend NI to all income and the top rate of tax becomes 53%, the state taking more than half of someone income is immoral. I and many others go out to work to ear for myself and my family, not for the state.
If SKS had any sense, with this massive majority he would immediately scrap the stupid triple lock. But he won't.
Not sure breaking a manifesto pledge two days into government would help with trust in politics. The Tories beat Labour in the over 65s . If Labour hadn’t made a pledge to keep the triple lock then the margin would have been much higher and could have cost them many seats and even their majority.
Founded a polling company with the worst record of any pollster and thought Le Pen was a shoe in and she's losing.
He is a grade A prat.
Goodwin is a mixed bag, and needs a directional shift. As a politics academic who wrote readable books about the rise and meaning of populism he seems to me to have found a field which was simultaneously important, interesting, ignored and sold books. That was and is excellent.
He should have stuck to his last, and provided the intellectual foundations of a much needed new conservatism, which cannot possibly be based on pretending there are simple solutions to complex problems. Which is why understanding Reform and co is very different from joining their agenda.
I would like Goodwin to get out of selling subscriptions to pop substacks and polling, and write hard books and articles on how a conservative, rightist agenda can be turned into hard and detailed policy with proper underpinning in political philosophy. This is what academics are for.
The problem is that Goodwin actually supports Reform, which isn't itself a problem but he's now just using "research" to support his own worldview and policy preferences which is a big no no.
He was initially very interesting on UKIP and the impact on Labour but he went completely loopy with Johnson, believing he'd reset the UK for good and Goodwin had all the answers.
It is shame to see him descend but as of the moment he is a total loser and prat.
Founded a polling company with the worst record of any pollster and thought Le Pen was a shoe in and she's losing.
He is a grade A prat.
Goodwin is a mixed bag, and needs a directional shift. As a politics academic who wrote readable books about the rise and meaning of populism he seems to me to have found a field which was simultaneously important, interesting, ignored and sold books. That was and is excellent.
He should have stuck to his last, and provided the intellectual foundations of a much needed new conservatism, which cannot possibly be based on pretending there are simple solutions to complex problems. Which is why understanding Reform and co is very different from joining their agenda.
I would like Goodwin to get out of selling subscriptions to pop substacks and polling, and write hard books and articles on how a conservative, rightist agenda can be turned into hard and detailed policy with proper underpinning in political philosophy. This is what academics are for.
Newt Gingrich was an academic before he became a politico.
Is it a sign of the Prime Minister's disdain for traditional English values, that he's yet to fill the office of Second Church Estates Commissioner?
Wicked incompetence? OR visa-versa?
He is stalling pending instructions from Moscow.
A petunia will be placed in the window of a particular St Petersburg flat by a man with a Marks and Spencer carrier bag and a Kit Kat and then we will know who it is to be.
Your truly just noted, that Larry the Cat the Chief Mouser to the Treasury, has been removed from wiki list of "Also Attending Cabinet" as part of new HMG (he was on this list when I looked 8 hours or so ago).
DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?
Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!
Humphrey the Downing Street cat (as was) was evicted from Number 10 when Blair came into power in 97 (or so the story went). Apparently centrist Labour Governments aren't animal lovers.
The so called far right surge in Europe never really happened.
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
It has happened, at the last election in France RN had under 20 seats, now they're going to have over 200. It's not a majority but it's a huge boost to the party and if the hard left/centre left alliance continues to ignore immigration reform then that 40% ceiling will begin to approach 50% as we get to 2026 and the presidential election.
Exit poll said 134-152. So far they have 131 with 123 seats to go.
That's for the seats that are still up for grab, they won a fair number in the first round.
Don't think so, thats the whole assembly 577 seats.
Comments
Keeping out le pen
Swings and roundabouts.
I'll save my applause for when the factories and power stations get built.
@TelePolitics
🔴 EXCLUSIVE: Suella Braverman’s Tory leadership campaign dealt blow as key ally abandons her
https://x.com/TelePolitics/status/1810039124616695864
I hope you will drop back in occasionally.
None of this "this will be my last post" bollocks please.
I am very impressed how fast they are doing it.
RN (incl. LR-RN) (122)
Macron's coalition Ensemble (115)
NFP left-wing coalition (106)
LR (right) (36)
Ind. right (15)
Ind. left (9)
Ind. center (6)
Regionalists (4)
Misc. (1)
Not available (163)
See you in about eight months, i hope
I do genuinely enjoy your commentary, even if it is occasionally spiced with this mad loathing of me, perhaps that is why I enjoy it
A bientot
The Tories need to understand why this is.
The Tories lost for being incompetent and not understanding the needs of the public. Woke is not what the public care about it, it is a fringe issue that loses more votes than it gains.
And leaving the culture wars behind but you won't like that I feel.
https://youtu.be/cOeFhSzoTuc?si=z5mT_g_l6ihn31gA
This site is somewhere you get to read views well out of your comfort zone, often well elucidated, not an echo chamber.
It is possible to disagree with the view without disliking the poster.
Are we meant to ignore it? Does it just annoy you that I said he was senile a year ago? Or is it simply that you don’t like news that makes you uncomfortable? What??
Attitudes like yours - “look away, don’t talk about, it’s Trumpite propaganda” - have allowed the Democrats to conceal his problems, a foolish and damaging policy which has - as we now realise - made everything considerably worse
He is/was quite witty and often said very interesting things.
The truth is there are whole spells when @Leon clogs up the site with shite about aliens, the supposed rise of the far right, how shite Britain is etc. At least the incessant travel pictures have been banned.
It’s a challenge for the editors.
It’s possible Leon repels more contributors than he gains actual readers.
No details I afraid so my memory might be wrong IIRC there were predictions of below 10% for the youngest age group.
I'm actually surprised they're doing as well as 14% amongst the 18-24 cohort, given that the Tories' main manifesto contribution on youth issues was a pledge to exploit school leavers either as cheap cannon fodder for the army, or as slave labour to plug gaps in creaking public services.
Mrs Thatcher won the youth vote.
Commenting
In the EU elections, it was really only RN and AfD, who seem to hate each other, and now the RN are coming THIRD in these assembly elections.
Farage meanwhile (who I would necessarily call far right but some of the weird creatures floating about Refuk certainly are) only managed 4 seats.
For southern middle class graduates its a very different matter.
Note that subsample(s) would logically have pretty high margin of error; meaning that 14% youth-Con vote may well be within margin(s) of error for youngest voter cohort.
I'd be backing Hunt or Tom T if I were a Tory.
I’m also happy with this apparent outcome, and enjoying the near-palpable sense of disappointment on the media’s part who have been dampening their collective helmet at the prospect of La Fash Francaise for weeks now.
Surely they won't?
As far as 'slavish' support for the elderly Starmer is on the same page and as was pointed out to him he had a choice to support the 3d child benefit but has chosen the elderly and triple lock instead
I have no idea what will happen in the conservative party nor for that matter Reform but as someone said earlier it is hardly of an immediate concern when Starmer can do anything he choses and all the opposition including the Lib Dems are irrelevant
After weeks of campaigning, I suspect most of them need sleep, time with their families and time to think and you don't get any of that turning up on Sunday political shows.
This forum seems full of people with the answers but I doubr we're any better off.
Best just to forget the Conservative Party for a few weeks and get on with the real political business.
That will surely tell us the likely top two candidates.
I'd be looking at the correlation between LD gains and the demographic profile of a seat.
He should have stuck to his last, and provided the intellectual foundations of a much needed new conservatism, which cannot possibly be based on pretending there are simple solutions to complex problems. Which is why understanding Reform and co is very different from joining their agenda.
I would like Goodwin to get out of selling subscriptions to pop substacks and polling, and write hard books and articles on how a conservative, rightist agenda can be turned into hard and detailed policy with proper underpinning in political philosophy. This is what academics are for.
Reducing the 2.5% element to 0.5% might be a possibility but smacks of underhandedness.
But they will do well in the context of prior elections
They have, however, played the expectations game really badly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starmer_ministry
DOES THIS MEAN that that Keir Starmer is demoting Britain's favorite feline?
Would make better attack-line spin than the bilge PB right-wing wack-jobs been pumping since Thursday!
Or maybe they have high enough standards that they were repulsed by the misconduct of the Conservatives ?
In 2019, the 18-24 age group voted 62% Labour, 19% Conservative, 9% LD and 10% Others. The Focaldata numbers are Labour 47%, Conservative 14%, Green 14%, Reform 11% and LD 8%.
Yes, a 5% swing to Conservative from Labour but Conservatives still down among younger voters and tied with Greens who are the big winners (Reform did well). Again, look at where the Greens won or did well and see the demographic profile of the seat - may be informative.
He was initially very interesting on UKIP and the impact on Labour but he went completely loopy with Johnson, believing he'd reset the UK for good and Goodwin had all the answers.
It is shame to see him descend but as of the moment he is a total loser and prat.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/07/07/2024-french-election-results-chart-and-map-of-second-round-winners_6676976_8.html.
Latest
RN (incl. LR-RN) (133)
NFP left-wing coalition (127)
Macron's coalition Ensemble (127)
LR (right) (37)
Ind. right (15)
Ind. left (9)
Ind. center (6)
Regionalists (4)
Misc. (1)
No Result Yet (118)