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The Tory Party’s long term problems – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    I think Rishi's line on hoping people find it in their hearts to forgive him over D-Day is a good one. Best one given the circumstances.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    love him or hate him, Trump reading off the Cheesecake Factory menu at a rally is hilarious
    https://x.com/0xgaut/status/1800075579078607268

    It actually really smart from Trump, The Cheesecake Factory is incredibly popular restaurant chain. Its aspirational / special occasion place that middle classes in America love to go to eat. Europeans might look at it as rather tacky wannabe proper restaurant, but in US it is much loved.

    I hated the Cheesecake Factory, so yeah Trump is probably catnip to Cheesecake Factory diners.
    The only thing I know about the Cheesecake Factory is its where Penny (and for a while Bernadette) worked in the early seasons of The Big Bang Theory.
    It's a similar fayre to the old shite you used to get at Frankie and Bennies, but with cheesecake themed deserts. It's a bit like Peter Kaye with garlic bread "garlic and bread? dirty b@5tards!" Cheese and cake? Dirty bas****!
    Actually that's not true. Frankie and Bennies is loads of frozen / reheated / pre-prepared food. One of the USPs for Cheesecake Factory is every is made on site and to order. Its certainly not of the standard that mid-level restaurants in the UK could get away with, but the US it fits a niche between fast food / fast casual (that people every day) and the "real" restaurants that are either out of a lot of people price range or simply don't exist in many towns in the US.
    I speak from experience. To my mind it was not "mom and pop" fayre, it was still very much from "the man".
    Oh god, in terms of actual quality, it absolutely is, its fake "posh" food but it isn't frozen /
    microwave blast cuisine. That is places like Olive Garden or Applebee's. Frankie and Bernie = Applebee's in the US.

    But remember even in the UK these days we have a much higher quality when you start to spend £30 a dish.
    I'm currently in Gozo. Dined at a Michelin starred place in the harbour area called T'mun last night, E25 for a main and it was sublime. Way ahead of anything you'd get for £25 in the UK or 50 bucks from a chain in the US.
    Of course there are many places you can eat in Europe, particularly places like Spain and Italy, better for less. But the UK is much better across the board than it was in the 80s and 90s. I am not sure that's true in the US, fast food is now really terrible (not only terrible for you, but looks and taste foul, and relatively very expensive), and mid isn't much better.

    We talked the other day on here why small towns in France can still have high streets that work, where as the UK, its only coffee shops, bars and chain restaurants these days. Wages, rents, rates, etc.
    In the US Katz Diner type independent places are great. I went to a fantastic one In Reading Market in Philadelphia a few years ago. Those are the places to eat reasonably. Other than the queue Katz Diner is great too.

    Back in Blighty pub food remains extraordinarily poor yet expensive.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Trump still ahead of Biden according to the Economist's tracker, by 46% to 45%.

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls

    New CBS poll though has Biden ahead of Trump now 50% to 49% in the battleground states
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-trump-biden-neck-and-neck-06-09-2024/
    Whenever I look at BF prices for Trump as against the polls I have to remind myself that, in 2020, people were still betting on Trump after he had actually lost the EC vote. People who were at least there in spirit on 6 Jan were have always been active in that market, making it a less than rational one.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    It is horrifying that Braverman uses the phrase "unite the right" - she knows exactly what she is doing

    "The Unite the Right rally was a white supremacist[4][5][6][7] rally that took place in Charlottesville, Virginia, from August 11 to 12, 2017.[8][9][10] Marchers included members of the alt-right,[11] neo-Confederates,[12] neo-fascists,[13] white nationalists,[14] neo-Nazis,[15] Klansmen,[16] and far-right militias.[17] Some groups chanted racist and antisemitic slogans and carried weapons, Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols, the Valknut, Confederate battle flags, Deus vult crosses, flags, and other symbols of various past and present antisemitic and anti-Islamic groups.[23] The organizers' stated goals included the unification of the American white nationalist movement[11] and opposing the proposed removal of the statue of General Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville's former Lee Park."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    I think Rishi's line on hoping people find it in their hearts to forgive him over D-Day is a good one. Best one given the circumstances.

    Was it his Longest Day?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    I think Rishi's line on hoping people find it in their hearts to forgive him over D-Day is a good one. Best one given the circumstances.

    To most of us it was no big deal anyway. But then I was never going to vote for him anyway.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,997

    love him or hate him, Trump reading off the Cheesecake Factory menu at a rally is hilarious
    https://x.com/0xgaut/status/1800075579078607268

    It actually really smart from Trump, The Cheesecake Factory is incredibly popular restaurant chain. Its aspirational / special occasion place that middle classes in America love to go to eat. Europeans might look at it as rather tacky wannabe proper restaurant, but in US it is much loved.

    I hated the Cheesecake Factory, so yeah Trump is probably catnip to Cheesecake Factory diners.
    The only thing I know about the Cheesecake Factory is its where Penny (and for a while Bernadette) worked in the early seasons of The Big Bang Theory.
    It's a similar fayre to the old shite you used to get at Frankie and Bennies, but with cheesecake themed deserts. It's a bit like Peter Kaye with garlic bread "garlic and bread? dirty b@5tards!" Cheese and cake? Dirty bas****!
    Actually that's not true. Frankie and Bennies is loads of frozen / reheated / pre-prepared food. One of the USPs for Cheesecake Factory is every is made on site and to order. Its certainly not of the standard that mid-level restaurants in the UK could get away with, but the US it fits a niche between fast food / fast casual (that people every day) and the "real" restaurants that are either out of a lot of people price range or simply don't exist in many towns in the US.
    I speak from experience. To my mind it was not "mom and pop" fayre, it was still very much from "the man".
    Oh god, in terms of actual quality, it absolutely is, its fake "posh" food but it isn't frozen /
    microwave blast cuisine. That is places like Olive Garden or Applebee's. Frankie and Bernie = Applebee's in the US.

    But remember even in the UK these days we have a much higher quality when you start to spend £30 a dish.
    I'm currently in Gozo. Dined at a Michelin starred place in the harbour area called T'mun last night, E25 for a main and it was sublime. Way ahead of anything you'd get for £25 in the UK or 50 bucks from a chain in the US.
    Of course there are many places you can eat in Europe, particularly places like Spain and Italy, better for less. But the UK is much better across the board than it was in the 80s and 90s. I am not sure that's true in the US, fast food is now really terrible (not only terrible for you, but looks and taste foul, and relatively very expensive), and mid isn't much better.

    We talked the other day on here why small towns in France can still have high streets that work, where as the UK, its only coffee shops, bars and chain restaurants these days. Wages, rents, rates, etc.
    In the US Katz Diner type independent places are great. I went to a fantastic one In Reading Market in Philadelphia a few years ago. Those are the places to eat reasonably. Other than the queue Katz Diner is great too.

    Back in Blighty pub food remains extraordinarily poor yet expensive.
    Maybe you need to eat at different pubs ;-)
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    wtf is the “cheesecake factory”??

    As a well travelled for flint knappers weekly, are you seriously saying you have never seen or been to a cheesecake factory in the US? You can't miss the gaudy buildings that are housed in. They are everywhere in the US.

    Think Trump Tower....but you go to get a slightly better meal than most US chains and a huge piece of cheesecake. Thus, its the go to location for people for birthdays etc.
    I have honestly missed it. And I travel in America a lot

    I see they do a “factory turkey burger”

    https://www.thecheesecakefactory.com/menu/glamburgers/factory-turkey-burger

    These words must have different connotations in the USA. Honestly America is sometimes so foreign

    Last time I was there I did note there was some new (to me) nationwide chain which actually did decent and not disgustingly large oversweet
    sandwiches. A bit like an American Pret. I forget the name but it was ok!

    I’m back in September and I will try and seek out…. The cheesecake factory
    As somebody who is well travelled and versed in high quality food, I am not sure you will enjoy the experience !!!
    Panera?
    Yes! Well spotted. Panera

    Genuinely ok sarnies
    My wife is american... we go stateside regularly....
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    HYUFD said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    This will surely be a sub-50-seat scenario if Tatton goes. It is one of the most Conservative places I can imagine.
    No, even without Tatton Election Maps UK has the Tories on 101 seats.

    Tatton was lost by the Tories in 1997 to Martin Bell remember and voted Remain in 2016
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    The Martin Bell scenario was unique, and all the other parties stood aside for him. I agree that remain may have an attritional effect, but my question is perhaps better phrased as: if the Tories aren't winning Tatton, what are they actually for?
    Rural and market town and commuter belt Leave seats
    That's a sad decline from 'Natural Party of Government'.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Interesting odds appearing now on Bet365
    I'd recommend (as value) 12/1 on Jody McIntyre for WPB in Birmingham Yardley. They are pushing this one hard, its Labour's weakest held seat in Brum and although Jess P has a profile this might be closer than imagined given Labour's chaos in Birmingham.
    Value in the odds not a prediction........
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Cookie said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    This will surely be a sub-50-seat scenario if Tatton goes. It is one of the most Conservative places I can imagine.
    Is Esther McVey just a bad campaigner? Going through her record, she performed slightly better than the national swing in Wirral West 2005, but underachieved the national swing in Wirral West 2010 and 2015 and Tatton in 2017 and 2019.

    Wirral West 2005 - local swing 3.7% Lab to Con, national swing 3.1% Lab to Con
    Wirral West 2010 - local swing 4.4% Lab to Con, national swing 5.0% Lab to Con
    Wirral West 2015 - local swing 3.6% Con to Lab, national swing 0.5% Con to Lab
    Tatton 2017 - local swing 5.1% Con to Lab, national swing 2.0% Con to Lab
    Tatton 2019 - local swing 2.7% Lab to Con, national swing 4.5% Lab to Con

    Fair enough, in 2017 McVey was losing any Osborne personal vote but in 2015 and 2019 she should have benefited from the usual boost that any sitting MP gets and she didn't seem to get that, in fact she seems to get an incumbency penalty.
    Remainer seat effect, maybe?
    I don't think Tatton was Remain?

    In Esther's defence, national swing is the wrong comparator. I think Merseyside has been swinging relatively to Lab for some time. It would be relevant to compare Wirral West to Wirral South, and perhaps to Wallasey and Crosby and its successors; and Tatton to Macclesfield.
    55.56% to Remain.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    He'll be suspended by Farage pretty soon.
    All the rest of it, and the dogwhistling, suggests he is a Nazi sympathetiser; however, being neutral/making peace with Hitler was an establishment view in 1940 - as exemplified by Lord Halifax.

    Easy to be wise after the event, as we know how it all turned out, but plenty thought Churchill a dangerous and deranged warmonger.
  • lockhimuplockhimup Posts: 59
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Trump still ahead of Biden according to the Economist's tracker, by 46% to 45%.

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls

    New CBS poll though has Biden ahead of Trump now 50% to 49% in the battleground states
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-trump-biden-neck-and-neck-06-09-2024/
    Whenever I look at BF prices for Trump as against the polls I have to remind myself that, in 2020, people were still betting on Trump after he had actually lost the EC vote. People who were at least there in spirit on 6 Jan were have always been active in that market, making it a less than rational one.
    Also out of kilter with other markets such as percentage vote. There were some superb arbs last time out
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    love him or hate him, Trump reading off the Cheesecake Factory menu at a rally is hilarious
    https://x.com/0xgaut/status/1800075579078607268

    It actually really smart from Trump, The Cheesecake Factory is incredibly popular restaurant chain. Its aspirational / special occasion place that middle classes in America love to go to eat. Europeans might look at it as rather tacky wannabe proper restaurant, but in US it is much loved.

    I hated the Cheesecake Factory, so yeah Trump is probably catnip to Cheesecake Factory diners.
    The only thing I know about the Cheesecake Factory is its where Penny (and for a while Bernadette) worked in the early seasons of The Big Bang Theory.
    It's a similar fayre to the old shite you used to get at Frankie and Bennies, but with cheesecake themed deserts. It's a bit like Peter Kaye with garlic bread "garlic and bread? dirty b@5tards!" Cheese and cake? Dirty bas****!
    Actually that's not true. Frankie and Bennies is loads of frozen / reheated / pre-prepared food. One of the USPs for Cheesecake Factory is every is made on site and to order. Its certainly not of the standard that mid-level restaurants in the UK could get away with, but the US it fits a niche between fast food / fast casual (that people every day) and the "real" restaurants that are either out of a lot of people price range or simply don't exist in many towns in the US.
    I speak from experience. To my mind it was not "mom and pop" fayre, it was still very much from "the man".
    Oh god, in terms of actual quality, it absolutely is, its fake "posh" food but it isn't frozen /
    microwave blast cuisine. That is places like Olive Garden or Applebee's. Frankie and Bernie = Applebee's in the US.

    But remember even in the UK these days we have a much higher quality when you start to spend £30 a dish.
    I'm currently in Gozo. Dined at a Michelin starred place in the harbour area called T'mun last night, E25 for a main and it was sublime. Way ahead of anything you'd get for £25 in the UK or 50 bucks from a chain in the US.
    Of course there are many places you can eat in Europe, particularly places like Spain and Italy, better for less. But the UK is much better across the board than it was in the 80s and 90s. I am not sure that's true in the US, fast food is now really terrible (not only terrible for you, but looks and taste foul, and relatively very expensive), and mid isn't much better.

    We talked the other day on here why small towns in France can still have high streets that work, where as the UK, its only coffee shops, bars and chain restaurants these days. Wages, rents, rates, etc.
    In the US Katz Diner type independent places are great. I went to a fantastic one In Reading Market in Philadelphia a few years ago. Those are the places to eat reasonably. Other than the queue Katz Diner is great too.

    Back in Blighty pub food remains extraordinarily poor yet expensive.
    Maybe you need to eat at different pubs ;-)
    Perhaps it's unique to Wales. I can't think of any that I have been to since COVID that aren't vile.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    Henry Hill posted an article on ConservativeHome that struck me as thoughtful. I want to see a Tory party with ideas that could make this country more competitive, I just think that it'll take more than one election defeat to get the message through to them.

    https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/10/it-is-no-good-trying-to-unite-the-right-until-we-have-answered-the-crucial-question-around-what/
    Reform UK enjoys the normal advantage of a minor party in that it doesn’t have to produce anything resembling a workable programme for government; it’s diagnoses do not need to engage properly with either trade-offs or the practicalities of implementation. At present, any merger would be little more than a union with the Tories’ renegade id.

    It might be more comfortable for MPs to focus on the need to win votes to their right, but the cold truth is that the overwhelming majority of losses next month will be to Labour and the Liberal Democrats. The path back to office, however long and winding, runs through those voters.

    That does not mean, as some commentators claim, that the Conservatives must do nothing but tack back towards the imagined ‘centre’, which is normally a label adopted by people who hold a clutch of minority positions which they imagine to be in the middle of their own Overton Window. As I recently wrote elsewhere:

    “…the politics of being sensible can too easily stray into the politics of the easy short-term decision, even as the long-term costs (political and real) become increasingly unsustainable.”

    There is plenty of scope – indeed, need – for radical challenges to the oh-so-sensible status quo. Mass immigration exacerbates the housing crisis and props up a low-productivity economy without raising living standards; large parts of the higher education sector freight taxpayers and young workers with debt merely to despatch workers into jobs school-leavers did a generation before; the forward projections of our biggest public spending commitments are unsustainable.

    On those areas and others, such as tax and family policy, there is plenty of room for new answers. Finding those answers – and understanding why it has so totally failed to meet these challenges in office – must be the mission of the Conservative Party in Opposition.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Indeed I’ll develop that argument. One of the great problems with American food is not the cooking or the restaurants - the chains and the recipes - it’s the corruption of the basic ingredients. Fructose and hormones. Shit at the source

    There is also the corporate push for deskilled kitchens. It far cheaper to create recipes that require little to no equipment beyond a microwave or ones of those special ovens that cooks /steams in rapid time, and in doing so doesn't require actual trained chefs. Its like the school dinners here, but in the US you are now paying $20-30-40 (+20% tip) for it.
    20%? Dream on. 30%!!

    https://x.com/thespectator/status/1793582677196485030?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580
    lockhimup said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Trump still ahead of Biden according to the Economist's tracker, by 46% to 45%.

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls

    New CBS poll though has Biden ahead of Trump now 50% to 49% in the battleground states
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-trump-biden-neck-and-neck-06-09-2024/
    Whenever I look at BF prices for Trump as against the polls I have to remind myself that, in 2020, people were still betting on Trump after he had actually lost the EC vote. People who were at least there in spirit on 6 Jan were have always been active in that market, making it a less than rational one.
    Also out of kilter with other markets such as percentage vote. There were some superb arbs last time out
    Would hope some PBers could share similar this time round on election night!
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    BobSykes said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    This will surely be a sub-50-seat scenario if Tatton goes. It is one of the most Conservative places I can imagine.
    No, even without Tatton Election Maps UK has the Tories on 101 seats.

    Tatton was lost by the Tories in 1997 to Martin Bell remember and voted Remain in 2016
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    Tatton, Altrincham and Sale W and Macclesfield are neighbouring seats anyone of sane mind would for years have considered safe Tory seats for all time but demographic change and the surge in very affluent remainerish Manchester based professionals taking firmly against the Tories in the past few years and notably post Partygate and the Truss disaster, in my view makes fertile ground for Labour, alongside the likes of Cheadle and Hazel Grove which are also in the same environs and will without a shadow of doubt go Lib Dem for same reasons.

    As a Manchester professional and north Manchester resident i talk about the 'Chorltonifcation' of the Greater Manchester hinterland as a vast swathe from Ramsbottom in the north to Knutsford in the south comes to resemble hipsterish Chorlton cum Hardy in south Manchester. Its all becoming quite uniform now with hipster beards and artisan bakeries everywhere you turn... which isn't good for Tories even before the present catastrophes began to unfold.
    Isn't voting a bit, you know, unhipsterish?
    I have a thesis that only around 60 or 70 actual hipsters have ever existed at any given time. It's a journalistic shorthand rather than an actual type of person.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,997
    edited June 10
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Indeed I’ll develop that argument. One of the great problems with American food is not the cooking or the restaurants - the chains and the recipes - it’s the corruption of the basic ingredients. Fructose and hormones. Shit at the source

    There is also the corporate push for deskilled kitchens. It far cheaper to create recipes that require little to no equipment beyond a microwave or ones of those special ovens that cooks /steams in rapid time, and in doing so doesn't require actual trained chefs. Its like the school dinners here, but in the US you are now paying $20-30-40 (+20% tip) for it.
    20%? Dream on. 30%!!

    https://x.com/thespectator/status/1793582677196485030?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    The funniest (if you want to call it that) I have seen is demand for a tip at a self service check-out.

    When minimum wage in the US was exceptionally low it made some sense, but in some states the minimum wage is as high as $20/hr, then to ask for 20% minimum tip on top is absolute piss take.

    It has creeped into London as well. The automatic service charge of 15%, including some establishments who try to frame it as compulsory fee.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    NEW THREAD

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,439

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The bigger issue is the quality of candidate selection.

    That's the pool from which leaders are drawn.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    DM_Andy said:

    Henry Hill posted an article on ConservativeHome that struck me as thoughtful. I want to see a Tory party with ideas that could make this country more competitive, I just think that it'll take more than one election defeat to get the message through to them.

    https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/10/it-is-no-good-trying-to-unite-the-right-until-we-have-answered-the-crucial-question-around-what/

    Reform UK enjoys the normal advantage of a minor party in that it doesn’t have to produce anything resembling a workable programme for government; it’s diagnoses do not need to engage properly with either trade-offs or the practicalities of implementation. At present, any merger would be little more than a union with the Tories’ renegade id.

    It might be more comfortable for MPs to focus on the need to win votes to their right, but the cold truth is that the overwhelming majority of losses next month will be to Labour and the Liberal Democrats. The path back to office, however long and winding, runs through those voters.

    That does not mean, as some commentators claim, that the Conservatives must do nothing but tack back towards the imagined ‘centre’, which is normally a label adopted by people who hold a clutch of minority positions which they imagine to be in the middle of their own Overton Window. As I recently wrote elsewhere:

    “…the politics of being sensible can too easily stray into the politics of the easy short-term decision, even as the long-term costs (political and real) become increasingly unsustainable.”

    There is plenty of scope – indeed, need – for radical challenges to the oh-so-sensible status quo. Mass immigration exacerbates the housing crisis and props up a low-productivity economy without raising living standards; large parts of the higher education sector freight taxpayers and young workers with debt merely to despatch workers into jobs school-leavers did a generation before; the forward projections of our biggest public spending commitments are unsustainable.

    On those areas and others, such as tax and family policy, there is plenty of room for new answers. Finding those answers – and understanding why it has so totally failed to meet these challenges in office – must be the mission of the Conservative Party in Opposition.

    "As far back as I remember I always wanted to be a Tory."
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    Cookie said:

    BobSykes said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    This will surely be a sub-50-seat scenario if Tatton goes. It is one of the most Conservative places I can imagine.
    No, even without Tatton Election Maps UK has the Tories on 101 seats.

    Tatton was lost by the Tories in 1997 to Martin Bell remember and voted Remain in 2016
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    Tatton, Altrincham and Sale W and Macclesfield are neighbouring seats anyone of sane mind would for years have considered safe Tory seats for all time but demographic change and the surge in very affluent remainerish Manchester based professionals taking firmly against the Tories in the past few years and notably post Partygate and the Truss disaster, in my view makes fertile ground for Labour, alongside the likes of Cheadle and Hazel Grove which are also in the same environs and will without a shadow of doubt go Lib Dem for same reasons.

    As a Manchester professional and north Manchester resident i talk about the 'Chorltonifcation' of the Greater Manchester hinterland as a vast swathe from Ramsbottom in the north to Knutsford in the south comes to resemble hipsterish Chorlton cum Hardy in south Manchester. Its all becoming quite uniform now with hipster beards and artisan bakeries everywhere you turn... which isn't good for Tories even before the present catastrophes began to unfold.
    This is fun. Slidey map tools for London and Manchester (and hinterland) showing socio-economic change 2011-2021. Shows how much posher south Manchester and North Cheshire have got in the past ten years.
    https://citygeographics.org/2022/12/15/tracking-gentrification-in-london-and-manchester-using-the-2021-census-occupational-class-data/
    The same effect in and around Romford. (Also, notable that Hornchurch is distinctly upmarket from Romford). And that's before the Elizabeth Line opened. Might not kill Rosser's chances this time round, but I'm dubious that his successor will be able to win on the same pitch that has served him so well for so long.

    No actual hipsters yet, though I did recently see someone cycling while wearing a bowler hat. I don't think he was doing it ironically, either.
  • .

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Indeed I’ll develop that argument. One of the great problems with American food is not the cooking or the restaurants - the chains and the recipes - it’s the corruption of the basic ingredients. Fructose and hormones. Shit at the source

    There is also the corporate push for deskilled kitchens. It far cheaper to create recipes that require little to no equipment beyond a microwave or ones of those special ovens that cooks /steams in rapid time, and in doing so doesn't require actual trained chefs. Its like the school dinners here, but in the US you are now paying $20-30-40 (+20% tip) for it.
    20%? Dream on. 30%!!

    https://x.com/thespectator/status/1793582677196485030?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    The funniest (if you want to call it that) I have seen is demand for a tip at a self service check-out.
    My lad upset his American girlfriend when he refused to tip at the counter when he picked up a takeaway pizza in Ohio. She was mortified and went back in to tip the member of staff who handed him the pizza box.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Interesting odds appearing now on Bet365
    I'd recommend (as value) 12/1 on Jody McIntyre for WPB in Birmingham Yardley. They are pushing this one hard, its Labour's weakest held seat in Brum and although Jess P has a profile this might be closer than imagined given Labour's chaos in Birmingham.
    Value in the odds not a prediction........

    Word on the street has been Jess is toast since the Mayoralty when this guy did well.

    The most gratifying Portillo moments for the PB Tories will be Phillips, Streeting and Debonnaire.

    On the other hand Hunt, Penny and JRM all survive even if it is a bad night for the Tories.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,055
    Andy_JS said:

    love him or hate him, Trump reading off the Cheesecake Factory menu at a rally is hilarious
    https://x.com/0xgaut/status/1800075579078607268

    It actually really smart from Trump, The Cheesecake Factory is incredibly popular restaurant chain. Its aspirational / special occasion place that middle classes in America love to go to eat. Europeans might look at it as rather tacky wannabe proper restaurant, but in US it is much loved.

    Never heard of it.
    The character of Penny in The Big Bang Theory works at The Cheesecake Factory as a waitress. This is perhaps how it is best known to people in the UK.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    Scott_xP said:
    What biscuit do we think might represent crossover and actually have Tory lead? Millionaire shortbread?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Andy_JS said:

    https://x.com/JLPartnersPolls/status/1800143930102779918

    NEW:
    @RestisPolitics
    / JLP poll, 7th-9th June

    *Labour lead at 17 points*

    Change on last week in brackets

    LAB: 41% (-2)
    CON: 24% (-2)
    REF: 15% (+3)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+2)

    https://x.com/Samfrspare/status/1800144343745069304

    Sam Freedman
    @Samfrspare
    JLP show same movement to Reform as others. This is the first fully post D-Day poll and doesn't show too big a drop for the Tories (though is the methodology that helps them most and they're on 24%).

    ----------

    The headline figures might look disappointing for Reform - but I think we are going to see crossover today/tomorrow from a polling company that has more favourable methodology to them / less favourable methodology to the Tories.

    DYOR but I would lump on those trading bets right now if you can. Lib Dems over 40.5 seats still looks very good to me.

    I've been going on about betting on Labour getting just below 40%, and since then a lot of the polls have made that seem a distinct possibility.
    My perception (which may be very wrong) is that regardless of the Tory numbers, Labour have slipped a little to just over 40%, and this may well be on the way to a 38-39% final share, With the Tories likely no higher than the mid 20's it will be enough for a whopping majority, but as ever with FPTP, does 41% explicit consent for a government really justify a huge majority? (Anymore than 2019, or 1997, 2001 etc)?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,258

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    He'll be suspended by Farage pretty soon.
    All the rest of it, and the dogwhistling, suggests he is a Nazi sympathetiser; however, being neutral/making peace with Hitler was an establishment view in 1940 - as exemplified by Lord Halifax.

    Easy to be wise after the event, as we know how it all turned out, but plenty thought Churchill a dangerous and deranged warmonger.
    Halifax hated Hitler and all his works - his private diaries and letters make that clear.

    He thought fighting against a united Europe would end up with a WWI style slaughter, plus not achieve much. Except possibly get the U.K. invaded.

    What he was thinking of seems to have been a heavily armed neutrality. Not a trusting or cordial peace.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited June 10
    Not sure if this has been posted -

    NEW:
    @RestisPolitics
    / JLP poll, 7th-9th June

    *Labour lead at 17 points*

    Change on last week in brackets

    LAB: 41% (-2)
    CON: 24% (-2)
    REF: 15% (+3)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 5% (+2)

    Tables: http://jlpartners.co.uk/polling-results

    EDIT: apologies - I see that is has
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    OK, @Farooq, I’m in:

    In how many seats will:
    1. Reform beat Conservative (don't count draws)? 60
    2. Labour finish 3rd or lower (don't count where they didn't stand)? 80
    3. Conservatives lose their deposit? 130
    4. Lib Dems lose their deposit? 220
    5. Reform lose their deposit? 380
    6. Labour lose their deposit? 14

    How big:
    7. Will the largest winning vote margin be? 31,000
    8. Will the biggest notional majority defeated be (only count where the incumbent party stands)? 19,500

    How small:
    9. Will the smallest winning vote margin be (1st - 2nd)? 22
    10. Will the smallest gap between 1st and 3rd be? 190
    11. Will the lowest number of votes for any candidate? 2

    How many:
    12. Parties will be elected (whether or not they take their seats. All true independents are grouped as a single party)? 16
    13. Seats will the Conservatives win? 70
    14. Seats will Labour win? 488
    15. Seats will Lib Dems win? 46
    16. Seats will the SNP win? 16
    17. Seats will Sinn Fein win? 6
    18. Seats will DUP win? 4
    19. Seats will Reform come second in? 60

    What percentage vote:
    20. Will Conservatives get across the UK? 21%
    21. Will Reform get across the UK? 14%
    22. Will SNP get in Scotland? 27%
    23. Will be lowest of any winning candidate? 27%
    24. Will be highest of any 2nd place candidate? 42%
    25. Will Speaker get? 75%

    Thanks!
    (N.B. Do you need to clarify in advance whether Rotherham counts in Q1 - do Reform count as beating the Cons here with Cons not standing? Doesn't change my guess but might need to pre-empt a small argument!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Interesting odds appearing now on Bet365
    I'd recommend (as value) 12/1 on Jody McIntyre for WPB in Birmingham Yardley. They are pushing this one hard, its Labour's weakest held seat in Brum and although Jess P has a profile this might be closer than imagined given Labour's chaos in Birmingham.
    Value in the odds not a prediction........

    Word on the street has been Jess is toast since the Mayoralty when this guy did well.

    The most gratifying Portillo moments for the PB Tories will be Phillips, Streeting and Debonnaire.

    On the other hand Hunt, Penny and JRM all survive even if it is a bad night for the Tories.
    If JRM survives it will be an extremely bad night for the Tories.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    edited June 10

    @Farooq Thankw for doing this! Gulp. Here goes:

    1. Reform beat Conservative (don't count draws)? 50 seats.

    3. Labour finish 3rd or lower (don't count where they didn't stand)? 150

    5. Conservatives lose their deposit? 100

    7. Lib Dems lose their deposit? 100

    9. Reform lose their deposit? 400

    11. Labour lose their deposit? 20

    How big:

    7. Will the largest winning vote margin be? 40,000

    10. Will the biggest notional majority defeated be (only count where the incumbent party stands)? 24,000

    How small:
    9. Will the smallest winning vote margin be (1st - 2nd)? 42

    11. Will the smallest gap between 1st and 3rd be? 250

    13. Will the lowest number of votes for any candidate? 50

    How many:
    12. Parties will be elected (whether or not they take their seats. All true independents are grouped as a single party)? 13 - assumed coop=labour

    14. Seats will the Conservatives win? 180

    16. Seats will Labour win? 390

    18. Seats will Lib Dems win? 50

    20. Seats will the SNP win? 20

    22. Seats will Sinn Fein win? 7

    24. Seats will DUP win? 6

    26. Seats will Reform come second in? 15

    What percentage vote:

    20. Will Conservatives get across the UK? 30%

    22. Will Reform get across the UK? 8%

    25. Will SNP get in Scotland? 32%

    27. Will be lowest of any winning candidate? 28%

    29. Will be highest of any 2nd place candidate? 30%

    31. Will Speaker get? 67%

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,151
    I think one intractible element of public finance is how to get NI to pay for itself.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913

    love him or hate him, Trump reading off the Cheesecake Factory menu at a rally is hilarious
    https://x.com/0xgaut/status/1800075579078607268

    It actually really smart from Trump, The Cheesecake Factory is incredibly popular restaurant chain. Its aspirational / special occasion place that middle classes in America love to go to eat. Europeans might look at it as rather tacky wannabe proper restaurant, but in US it is much loved.

    I hated the Cheesecake Factory, so yeah Trump is probably catnip to Cheesecake Factory diners.
    The only thing I know about the Cheesecake Factory is its where Penny (and for a while Bernadette) worked in the early seasons of The Big Bang Theory.
    It's a similar fayre to the old shite you used to get at Frankie and Bennies, but with cheesecake themed deserts. It's a bit like Peter Kaye with garlic bread "garlic and bread? dirty b@5tards!" Cheese and cake? Dirty bas****!
    When I went to the one in Chicago. The Hancock Building I think. They served large whole chickens. Just huge amounts. Much like everywhere in Chicago.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,151
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ok, I've compiled 25 questions for the General Election Competition.
    Thanks to everyone who's made suggestions. A reminder that I've dropped all non-numerical questions, so if someone wants to run something parallel asking questions like "in which seat will..." then be my guest.

    Also, I've devised a fiendish scoring system to make sure all questions count equally. That is, on difficult questions like "how many seats will Labour win?" just as many points will be given out as easier questions like "how many seats will the DUP get?" Obviously it's easier to hit the exact right number with the DUP one than the Labour one, but my scoring system flattens that out.

    In essence the most important thing is that you give better answers than other people. Being 1 off the Labour seats will probably earn you big points, but being 1 off with DUP seats might well get you nothing at all.

    More details on the scoring will follow later, but for now... the questions!

    General Election Competition - Scoring

    First up, DON'T WORRY ABOUT ALL THIS. You don't need to understand it to enter, this is just for transparency so you know you're all being treated fairly. It's complicated, but the idea is to even out the scoring so it's not all weighted towards getting the easy questions right. In short, guess better than the other players! If you miss but you're nearer than everyone else, you'll be fully rewarded.

    There will be 100 points awarded for each question. Each player can earn up to 20 points per question.
    When the result of a question is known, all answers are grouped into tiers. The closest to the correct answer is Tier 1. All players who are equally close are placed into that Tier. The next nearest answers are grouped into Tier 2, and so on.
    Tier 1 players receive an equal share of the 100 points not exceeding 20 points each. If there are any remaining points to be awarded, they are shared among Tier 2 players and will not exceed 15 points each. This carries on until all 100 points are allocated. The maximum points available to a player at each tier are 20, 15, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, and all subsequent tiers are 5.

    Example 1 The players provide the following answers
    Player A: 112
    Player B: 110
    Player C: 113
    Player D : 109
    Player E: 113
    Player F: 71
    Player G: 188
    Player H: 188
    Player I: 201
    The result is 111.
    Players A and B are the closest, and receive 20 points each, leaving 60 points.
    Players C, D, and E are in Tier 2 and receive 15 points each, leaving 15 points.
    Player F is in Tier 3 and receives 10 points, leaving 5 points.
    Players G and H are in Tier 4 and cannot receive their full 9 points because there's only 5 points remaining. They get 2.5 points each leaving 0 points.
    Player I is in Tier 5 and since there are no points left available receives 0 points.

    Example 2 The players provide the following answers
    Player A: 4
    Player B: 5
    Player C: 4
    Player D : 3
    Player E: 4
    Player F: 4
    Player G: 5
    Player H: 4
    Player I: 4
    The result is 4.
    Players A, C, E, F, H, and I are closest. They can't get the full 20 points because that would mean more than 100 points are given out. They each get 16.67 points. There are no points left.
    Players B, D, and G get nothing because there's no points left to give out, even though they were all very close to the right answer.
    Cannot snip .. on phone.

    Complex .. RU the ghost og Gordon Brown? :-)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Is this really the Danish PM?!

    “Denmark PM confronted by a Pakistani Muslim.

    “We have 5 children while you have 1 or 2.
    In 10 years, there will be more Pakis(Muslims) than Danes here.
    There are only 5 million Danes. You will soon be exterminated””

    https://x.com/imtiazmadmood/status/1800049986635448633?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They don’t seem very nice
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Leon said:

    Is this really the Danish PM?!

    “Denmark PM confronted by a Pakistani Muslim.

    “We have 5 children while you have 1 or 2.
    In 10 years, there will be more Pakis(Muslims) than Danes here.
    There are only 5 million Danes. You will soon be exterminated””

    https://x.com/imtiazmadmood/status/1800049986635448633?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They don’t seem very nice

    A tweet beneath says it is not the PM, but a minor Danish politician (I have no idea). Quite the confrontation however, if the translation is correct
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    That word cloud for Nigel Farage could be @Leon couldn’t it?

    Is this another alias of which we haven’t been informed?

    (No offence @Leon only joshing)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    I have finally encountered the war in Kyiv. Tank traps, armoured cars, aggressive soldiers, razor wire. Think this is Parliament/zelenskys home
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Farooq said:

    biggles said:


    @Farooq Thankw for doing this! Gulp. Here goes:

    1. Reform beat Conservative (don't count draws)? 50 seats.

    3. Labour finish 3rd or lower (don't count where they didn't stand)? 150

    5. Conservatives lose their deposit? 100

    7. Lib Dems lose their deposit? 100

    9. Reform lose their deposit? 400

    11. Labour lose their deposit? 20

    How big:

    7. Will the largest winning vote margin be? 40,000

    10. Will the biggest notional majority defeated be (only count where the incumbent party stands)? 24,000

    How small:
    9. Will the smallest winning vote margin be (1st - 2nd)? 42

    11. Will the smallest gap between 1st and 3rd be? 250

    13. Will the lowest number of votes for any candidate? 50

    How many:
    12. Parties will be elected (whether or not they take their seats. All true independents are grouped as a single party)? 13 - assumed coop=labour

    14. Seats will the Conservatives win? 180

    16. Seats will Labour win? 390

    18. Seats will Lib Dems win? 50

    20. Seats will the SNP win? 20

    22. Seats will Sinn Fein win? 7

    24. Seats will DUP win? 6

    26. Seats will Reform come second in? 15

    What percentage vote:

    20. Will Conservatives get across the UK? 30%

    22. Will Reform get across the UK? 8%

    25. Will SNP get in Scotland? 32%

    27. Will be lowest of any winning candidate? 28%

    29. Will be highest of any 2nd place candidate? 30%

    31. Will Speaker get? 67%

    Labour == Co-op, thanks for pointing that one out.
    It's almost like somebody wrote an article that specifically mentioned the Cooperative Party!

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/06/05/parties/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    MattW said:

    I think one intractible element of public finance is how to get NI to pay for itself.

    We could just abolish unemployment benefit and pensions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Leon said:

    Is this really the Danish PM?!

    “Denmark PM confronted by a Pakistani Muslim.

    “We have 5 children while you have 1 or 2.
    In 10 years, there will be more Pakis(Muslims) than Danes here.
    There are only 5 million Danes. You will soon be exterminated””

    https://x.com/imtiazmadmood/status/1800049986635448633?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They don’t seem very nice

    Those bloody Daleks. Always knew they were a lot sneakier than Terry Nation let on.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Leon said:

    I have finally encountered the war in Kyiv. Tank traps, armoured cars, aggressive soldiers, razor wire. Think this is Parliament/zelenskys home

    Isn't this the point where the brainwashed switch in your head gets flipped and you run towards the home with glowing red eyes and a specially sharpened flint dildo screaming "Victory for Putin, the Thousand-Year Tsar!"

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Is this really the Danish PM?!

    “Denmark PM confronted by a Pakistani Muslim.

    “We have 5 children while you have 1 or 2.
    In 10 years, there will be more Pakis(Muslims) than Danes here.
    There are only 5 million Danes. You will soon be exterminated””

    https://x.com/imtiazmadmood/status/1800049986635448633?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    They don’t seem very nice

    Those bloody Daleks. Always knew they were a lot sneakier than Terry Nation let on.
    There are of course precedents for Pakistani Daleks, courtesy of the documentary film-maker Spike Milligan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    GF2 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    This will surely be a sub-50-seat scenario if Tatton goes. It is one of the most Conservative places I can imagine.
    No, even without Tatton Election Maps UK has the Tories on 101 seats.

    Tatton was lost by the Tories in 1997 to Martin Bell remember and voted Remain in 2016
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    The Martin Bell scenario was unique, and all the other parties stood aside for him. I agree that remain may have an attritional effect, but my question is perhaps better phrased as: if the Tories aren't winning Tatton, what are they actually for?
    Yeah he benefitted from the 35% odd Lab/LD vote from 1992 not standing.
    Hamilton just about performed in line with the decline in safe seats in 97, he'd have possibly lost in a normal fight to Labour in a hyper marginal finish (extra 4% swing on top of UNS)
    Bet365 has odds up for (I think) all UK constituencies; Tatton has Labour at 4/7, Tories at 5/4. I do wonder whether their odds in general are overstating the likelihood of Tory catastrophe.
    What does an accumulator on the ten last Labour targets look like?

    I mean, they do do accumulators don’t they? Related what you say?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    viewcode said:


    Leon said:

    I have finally encountered the war in Kyiv. Tank traps, armoured cars, aggressive soldiers, razor wire. Think this is Parliament/zelenskys home

    Isn't this the point where the brainwashed switch in your head gets flipped and you run towards the home with glowing red eyes and a specially sharpened flint dildo screaming "Victory for Putin, the Thousand-Year Tsar!"


    I guess this is how they defend zelensky. Layers and layers of tough armed security. It goes on and on. This entire quarter of the city is heavily fortified and impenetrable
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    @Farooq Here are the results from the Fairliered jury.

    In how many seats will:
    1. Reform beat Conservative (don't count draws)? 47
    2. Labour finish 3rd or lower (don't count where they didn't stand)? 87
    3. Conservatives lose their deposit? 26
    4. Lib Dems lose their deposit? 257
    5. Reform lose their deposit? 373
    6. Labour lose their deposit? 19

    How big:
    7. Will the largest winning vote margin be? 37,654
    8. Will the biggest notional majority defeated be (only count where the incumbent party stands)? 21,236

    How small:
    9. Will the smallest winning vote margin be (1st - 2nd)? 9
    10. Will the smallest gap between 1st and 3rd be? 356
    11. Will the lowest number of votes for any candidate? 14

    How many:
    12. Parties will be elected (whether or not they take their seats. All true independents are grouped as a single party)? 13
    13. Seats will the Conservatives win? 138
    14. Seats will Labour win? 382
    15. Seats will Lib Dems win? 42
    16. Seats will the SNP win? 20
    17. Seats will Sinn Fein win? 7
    18. Seats will DUP win? 6
    19. Seats will Reform come second in? 47

    What percentage vote:
    20. Will Conservatives get across the UK? 24%
    21. Will Reform get across the UK? 11%
    22. Will SNP get in Scotland? 31%
    23. Will be lowest of any winning candidate? 34%
    24. Will be highest of any 2nd place candidate? 40%
    25. Will Speaker get? 83%
This discussion has been closed.