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The Tory Party’s long term problems – politicalbetting.com

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  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    Muesli said:

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    If your argument is that the general quality of our political class has been in freefall since 1997 (and even well before then), you'll catch no disagreement from me.
    I'm not sure about that. In the 1990s it wasn't unheard of for the older members to harumph at the paucity of talent on the Labour front bench "It used to be a cabinet of big beasts, Callaghan, Healey, Crosland, Jenkins. Now what have you got? Brown, Straw, Blunkett, not fit to lace their boots."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Quite happy to leave Babi Yar TBH
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,150
    edited June 10

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    But the LibDems have got Paddleboard Man!
    True! It's over
    Not until Ed Davey does "Dent Arthur Dent at Lords" :smile:

    (It strikes me that Rishi Sunk needs about 293625456047252 Somebody Else's Problem fields.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,353
    ToryJim said:

    Reform candidate with some ‘interesting’ views

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko

    Hatred for Churchill seems to be common on both the crank right, and the crank left. The crank right think we should have made peace with Hitler. The crank left think Western powers were no better than Hitler.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Muesli said:

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    If your argument is that the general quality of our political class has been in freefall since 1997 (and even well before then), you'll catch no disagreement from me.
    That's precisely my point, yes. We are left to choose from rotted fruits
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10
    ToryJim said:

    Reform candidate with some ‘interesting’ views

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko

    It is unclear from that is articles published on the website or were comments made in the comments section.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Sue Webber
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    So would you spend it ? It's a simple yes or no.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    Leon said:

    Quite happy to leave Babi Yar TBH

    Yes, A terrible place,
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,138
    edited June 10
    Sean_F said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    I do find it desperately sad to wander round places like Glastonbury Abbey, or the London Charterhouse, and contemplate what was lost - as well as the courage of people who were martyred in a lost cause.
    Glastonbury Abbey looks like it was one of the most beautiful churches in Europe, and many of the remaining ones in these islands are nothing special by European standards.

    England, and also Britain, gained a lot in terms of liberty of thought and tolerance, but also lost a lot by the Reformation. We've forgotten how much was on the debit side, hence the arrogant attitudes to Europe, particularly since World War II, and also a failure to see where the resulting scepticism of grand ideas has turned to turgid anti-intellectualism in our culture.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10
    Shut the System, a recently launched underground climate movement, partnered with Palestine Action's underground division to launch the attacks, both activist groups confirmed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1rrzp1qwp1o

    The clue is in the name, it has little to do with Barclays indirectly investing Israel.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    You forget Im posting from abroad.

    We can get on to IT when youve stopped sulking.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    Well they’d have to start at the very top. Although Farage disowns himself all the time especially when what he said yesterday is inconsistent with what he wants to say today.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    edited June 10

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.

    The list is here. 90% have a clear statutory purpose, many of which will have grown due to Brexit (which I supported and still support, but I get that it drives decision making, and therefore these sorts of bodies, home).

    https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Muesli said:

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    If your argument is that the general quality of our political class has been in freefall since 1997 (and even well before then), you'll catch no disagreement from me.
    More an embarrassment of poverty than an embarrassment of riches.

    Richard Holden's interview at the weekend just summed it all up for me. The state of politics.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited June 10
    DM_Andy said:

    Phil Burton-Cartledge, leftie blogger has compiled a list of the left independents standing in this election. Might be a good resource for people looking at potential left-wing vote splitting.

    https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-far-left-and-2024-general-election.html

    Aberdeen South - Sophie Molly
    Banbury - Cassie Bellingham
    Bethnal Green and Stepney - Ajmal Masroor
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - Ellie Merton
    Birmingham Edgbaston - Ammar Waraich
    Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley - Mohammad Hafeez
    Birmingham Ladywood - Akhmed Yakoob
    Birmingham Selly Oak - Kamel Hawwash
    Brentford and Isleworth - Zebunisa Rao
    Bristol East - Wael Arafat
    Cardiff West - John Urquhart
    Central Devon - Arthur Price
    Chingford and Woodford Green - Faiza Shaheen
    Dewsbury West - Tanisha Bramwell
    Dudley - Shakeela Bibi
    East Ham - Tahir Mirza
    Eltham and Chislehurst - John Courtneidge
    Enfield North - Ertan Karpazli
    Feltham and Heston - Damian Read
    Frome and East Somerset - Gareth Heathcote
    Grantham and Bourne - Charmaine Morgan
    Harrow West - Pamela Fitzpatrick
    Heywood and Middleton North - Chris Furlong
    Holborn St Pancras - Andrew Feinstein
    Hove and Portslade - Tanushka Marah
    Ilford North - Leanne Mohamad
    Ilford South - Syed Siddiqi
    Islington North - Jeremy Corbyn
    Kensington and Bayswater - Emma Dent Coad
    Kingston and Surbiton - Yvonne Tracey
    Leicester East - Claudia Webbe
    Leicester South - Shockat Adam
    Leyton and Wanstead - Shanell Johnson
    Liverpool Garston - Sam Gorst
    Liverpool Wavertree - Anne San
    Mid Cheshire - Helen Clawson
    Monmouthshire - Owen Lewis
    Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West - Yvonne Ridley
    Newport East - Pippa Bartolotti
    Oxford East - Jabu Nala-Hartley
    Preston - Michael Lavalette
    Reading West and Mod Berkshire - Adrian Abbs
    Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough - Maxine Bowler
    Sittingbourne and Sheppey - Mike Baldock
    South Dorset - Giovanna Lewis
    Southgate and Wood Green - Karl Vidol
    Southport - Sean Halsall
    Stockport - Asley Walker
    Stockton West - Monty Brack
    Stoke-on-Trent Central - Andy Polshaw
    Stratford and Bow - Fiona Lali
    Stratford and Bow - Steve Headley
    Tottenham - Nandita Lal
    Tunbridge Wells - Hassan Kassem
    Walsall and Bloxwich - Aftab Nawaz
    Wells and Mendip Hills - Abi McGuire
    West Suffolk - Katie Parker
    West Ham and Beckton - Sophia Naqvi
    Wigan - Jan Cunliffe
    Windsor - David Buckley
    Wycombe - Ajaz Rehman
    I'd treat that list with some caution. Tanisha Bramwell in Dewsbury West was a winning council ward candidate and Iqbal Mohammed is who I presume to be the left flank (i.e. pro-Gaza) independent in Dewsbury & Batley.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    This is just not up to the standard of UKIP though. Where are the gay donkeys raping horses?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Dangerous idiot racist. Sounds about right.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited June 10

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    You forget Im posting from abroad.

    We can get on to IT when youve stopped sulking.
    Sorry I have a life (last night was Pet Shop Boys at Co-op, great venue shame security is a mess and transport a complete disaster), now slowly back home and tomorrow the actual holiday

    But again you need people to audit the maths and that used to be done in house and was shunted elsewhere. It’s a job that needs to be done hence it’s as pointless as your other harebrained schemes
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    The OBR's budget was £4.38m in 2021-22. You'd save maybe a couple of hundred k by merging it with the Treasury.

    So what you're proposing is actually below the "just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss" level; you're advocating for a minor form of the salami slicing variant of austerity that Osborne fell back on when his initial 'bonfire of the quangoes' approach failed.

    Why would it turn out to be any more effective now than it was in 2014-15?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Weren’t we supposed to get Redfield & Wilton this morning? Have I missed it?
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    I commend the Reform staffer that came up with the term "offence archaeology".
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,912
    edited June 10
    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not showing up on Ladbrokes
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited June 10
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    Many thanks - really good to know.

    Just bought, as homework for next holiday, Underdown Fire from Heaven about the Civil Wars times in Dorchester, a century or so later ... and with only a link or two to get to Hardy.
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 187
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    Indeed. Many NDPBs are funded by industry levies too (e.g. FCA, most of OFCOM, etc). So if you axe them you don’t necessarily have their money. So you either have to retain the various levies as sector specific taxes or just get rid. .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,353
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    This is just not up to the standard of UKIP though. Where are the gay donkeys raping horses?
    I'm sure there are more than a few admirers of Der Fuhrer, among their candidates.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    This is just not up to the standard of UKIP though. Where are the gay donkeys raping horses?
    We want Pat Mountain for PM! Peak Kipper 19 to 20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,150
    edited June 10
    DM_Andy said:

    Phil Burton-Cartledge, leftie blogger has compiled a list of the left independents standing in this election. Might be a good resource for people looking at potential left-wing vote splitting.

    https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-far-left-and-2024-general-election.html

    Aberdeen South - Sophie Molly
    Banbury - Cassie Bellingham
    Bethnal Green and Stepney - Ajmal Masroor
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - Ellie Merton
    Birmingham Edgbaston - Ammar Waraich
    Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley - Mohammad Hafeez
    Birmingham Ladywood - Akhmed Yakoob
    Birmingham Selly Oak - Kamel Hawwash
    Brentford and Isleworth - Zebunisa Rao
    Bristol East - Wael Arafat
    Cardiff West - John Urquhart
    Central Devon - Arthur Price
    Chingford and Woodford Green - Faiza Shaheen
    Dewsbury West - Tanisha Bramwell
    Dudley - Shakeela Bibi
    East Ham - Tahir Mirza
    Eltham and Chislehurst - John Courtneidge
    Enfield North - Ertan Karpazli
    Feltham and Heston - Damian Read
    Frome and East Somerset - Gareth Heathcote
    Grantham and Bourne - Charmaine Morgan
    Harrow West - Pamela Fitzpatrick
    Heywood and Middleton North - Chris Furlong
    Holborn St Pancras - Andrew Feinstein
    Hove and Portslade - Tanushka Marah
    Ilford North - Leanne Mohamad
    Ilford South - Syed Siddiqi
    Islington North - Jeremy Corbyn
    Kensington and Bayswater - Emma Dent Coad
    Kingston and Surbiton - Yvonne Tracey
    Leicester East - Claudia Webbe
    Leicester South - Shockat Adam
    Leyton and Wanstead - Shanell Johnson
    Liverpool Garston - Sam Gorst
    Liverpool Wavertree - Anne San
    Mid Cheshire - Helen Clawson
    Monmouthshire - Owen Lewis
    Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West - Yvonne Ridley
    Newport East - Pippa Bartolotti
    Oxford East - Jabu Nala-Hartley
    Preston - Michael Lavalette
    Reading West and Mod Berkshire - Adrian Abbs
    Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough - Maxine Bowler
    Sittingbourne and Sheppey - Mike Baldock
    South Dorset - Giovanna Lewis
    Southgate and Wood Green - Karl Vidol
    Southport - Sean Halsall
    Stockport - Asley Walker
    Stockton West - Monty Brack
    Stoke-on-Trent Central - Andy Polshaw
    Stratford and Bow - Fiona Lali
    Stratford and Bow - Steve Headley
    Tottenham - Nandita Lal
    Tunbridge Wells - Hassan Kassem
    Walsall and Bloxwich - Aftab Nawaz
    Wells and Mendip Hills - Abi McGuire
    West Suffolk - Katie Parker
    West Ham and Beckton - Sophia Naqvi
    Wigan - Jan Cunliffe
    Windsor - David Buckley
    Wycombe - Ajaz Rehman
    A forever-blogger - interesting analysis, that needs itself to be analysed, since about 2006.

    I think he loves pushing buttons so much he will put this on his grave.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqAUmgE3WyM
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    As usual, AlanB misunderstands my argument.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to cut spending. But it is politically difficult, and the difficulties have to be directly addressed.

    The big spending quangos fall into the 'controversial' category.

    'Cutting quangos' is therefore dishonest either because it means no cuts of any real significance - or it's not being upfront about choices which are likely to be very unpopular with large parts of the electorate.

    He's criticising the parties for being dishonest about the choices which face us - which is entirely fair comment - but in this particular case doing much the same himself.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    Taz said:

    Muesli said:

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    If your argument is that the general quality of our political class has been in freefall since 1997 (and even well before then), you'll catch no disagreement from me.
    More an embarrassment of poverty than an embarrassment of riches.

    Richard Holden's interview at the weekend just summed it all up for me. The state of politics.
    A richness of embarrassments, you might say.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    Thats just over half a pence per person per month saving. How much did the budget without the OBR review attached increase mortgage costs by......
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Bet365 has Tatton as 4/7 Lab, 13/8 Con. Feels like slight value on McVey there.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,912
    ToryJim said:

    Dangerous idiot racist. Sounds about right.
    But not the C*** word anywhere. Not a word I use often but if I was only allowed one word......
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 10
    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,353

    Sean_F said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    I do find it desperately sad to wander round places like Glastonbury Abbey, or the London Charterhouse, and contemplate what was lost - as well as the courage of people who were martyred in a lost cause.
    Glastonbury Abbey looks like it was one of the most beautiful churches in Europe, and many of the remaining ones in these islands are nothing special by European standards.

    England, and also Britain, gained a lot in terms of liberty of thought and tolerance, but also lost a lot by the Reformation. We've forgotten how much was on the debit side, hence the arrogant attitudes to Europe, particularly since World War II, and also a failure to see where the resulting scepticism of grand ideas has turned to turgid anti-intellectualism in our culture.
    The 16th and 17th centuries are examples of how rising standards of education, and the creation of great works of art and literature, can go hand in hand with total barbarism.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Shut the System, a recently launched underground climate movement, partnered with Palestine Action's underground division to launch the attacks, both activist groups confirmed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1rrzp1qwp1o

    The clue is in the name, it has little to do with Barclays indirectly investing Israel.

    Quite likely they are being egged on or supported in other ways by Russia even if they are unaware of it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    There's always a hope Roger. Electoral Calculus have it going to Labour.

    Although Esther's comedy gig seems quite popular at the hustings:

    https://x.com/JaThLa/status/1799567986329628934
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    He'll be suspended by Farage pretty soon.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    edited June 10

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
    Too many times the bridesmaid? Murdo has a very much over masticated piece of chewing gum vibe.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    MattW said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Phil Burton-Cartledge, leftie blogger has compiled a list of the left independents standing in this election. Might be a good resource for people looking at potential left-wing vote splitting.

    https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-far-left-and-2024-general-election.html

    Aberdeen South - Sophie Molly
    Banbury - Cassie Bellingham
    Bethnal Green and Stepney - Ajmal Masroor
    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - Ellie Merton
    Birmingham Edgbaston - Ammar Waraich
    Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley - Mohammad Hafeez
    Birmingham Ladywood - Akhmed Yakoob
    Birmingham Selly Oak - Kamel Hawwash
    Brentford and Isleworth - Zebunisa Rao
    Bristol East - Wael Arafat
    Cardiff West - John Urquhart
    Central Devon - Arthur Price
    Chingford and Woodford Green - Faiza Shaheen
    Dewsbury West - Tanisha Bramwell
    Dudley - Shakeela Bibi
    East Ham - Tahir Mirza
    Eltham and Chislehurst - John Courtneidge
    Enfield North - Ertan Karpazli
    Feltham and Heston - Damian Read
    Frome and East Somerset - Gareth Heathcote
    Grantham and Bourne - Charmaine Morgan
    Harrow West - Pamela Fitzpatrick
    Heywood and Middleton North - Chris Furlong
    Holborn St Pancras - Andrew Feinstein
    Hove and Portslade - Tanushka Marah
    Ilford North - Leanne Mohamad
    Ilford South - Syed Siddiqi
    Islington North - Jeremy Corbyn
    Kensington and Bayswater - Emma Dent Coad
    Kingston and Surbiton - Yvonne Tracey
    Leicester East - Claudia Webbe
    Leicester South - Shockat Adam
    Leyton and Wanstead - Shanell Johnson
    Liverpool Garston - Sam Gorst
    Liverpool Wavertree - Anne San
    Mid Cheshire - Helen Clawson
    Monmouthshire - Owen Lewis
    Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West - Yvonne Ridley
    Newport East - Pippa Bartolotti
    Oxford East - Jabu Nala-Hartley
    Preston - Michael Lavalette
    Reading West and Mod Berkshire - Adrian Abbs
    Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough - Maxine Bowler
    Sittingbourne and Sheppey - Mike Baldock
    South Dorset - Giovanna Lewis
    Southgate and Wood Green - Karl Vidol
    Southport - Sean Halsall
    Stockport - Asley Walker
    Stockton West - Monty Brack
    Stoke-on-Trent Central - Andy Polshaw
    Stratford and Bow - Fiona Lali
    Stratford and Bow - Steve Headley
    Tottenham - Nandita Lal
    Tunbridge Wells - Hassan Kassem
    Walsall and Bloxwich - Aftab Nawaz
    Wells and Mendip Hills - Abi McGuire
    West Suffolk - Katie Parker
    West Ham and Beckton - Sophia Naqvi
    Wigan - Jan Cunliffe
    Windsor - David Buckley
    Wycombe - Ajaz Rehman
    A forever-blogger - interesting analysis, that needs itself to be analysed, since about 2006.

    I think he loves pushing buttons so much he will put this on his grave.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqAUmgE3WyM
    His top 100 dance songs of the 80s.

    https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2010/12/top-100-dance-songs-of-80s.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10
    glw said:

    Shut the System, a recently launched underground climate movement, partnered with Palestine Action's underground division to launch the attacks, both activist groups confirmed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1rrzp1qwp1o

    The clue is in the name, it has little to do with Barclays indirectly investing Israel.

    Quite likely they are being egged on or supported in other ways by Russia even if they are unaware of it.
    Its the same far left groups that come back around under a different guise. In 2000s, it was smashing up banks, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc because of WTO. In 2010s, it was smashing them up because of public spending cuts. In 2024, its smashing them up because of climate change and Israel.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    And Reform have backed him. They realise quite quickly they can't afford to disown hundreds of candidates with highly iffy views
    "I would welcome Nigel into the Conservative party. There’s not much difference really between him and many of the policies that we stand for..."
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    Most modern cars don’t even have a spare tyre. Calling out the AA when you get a puncture is pretty much inevitable!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Sean_F said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    I do find it desperately sad to wander round places like Glastonbury Abbey, or the London Charterhouse, and contemplate what was lost - as well as the courage of people who were martyred in a lost cause.
    Glastonbury Abbey looks like it was one of the most beautiful churches in Europe, and many of the remaining ones in these islands are nothing special by European standards.

    England, and also Britain, gained a lot in terms of liberty of thought and tolerance, but also lost a lot by the Reformation. We've forgotten how much was on the debit side, hence the arrogant attitudes to Europe, particularly since World War II, and also a failure to see where the resulting scepticism of grand ideas has turned to turgid anti-intellectualism in our culture.
    Wasn’t our greatest contribution to thought and tolerance after the reformation? The great thinkers and writers of the enlightenment, for example Locke, Hobbes, Bacon and Newton, and later Paine, contributed far more than I can think of pre-reformation.

    Also I can’t agree re our churches being nothing special by European standards. Outside of specialities such as the Sainte-Chapelle our churches are pretty fantastic on the whole.

    Go around much of France or Switzerland and you will find very few churches that match the great churches built off the wool trade. Our college chapels are generally beautiful and often the leaks of ecclesiastical design such as King’s Canterbury.

    Sure in Catholic countries you will have lots of fluff inside their churches but the cool beauty of our churches is wonderful.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
    Too many times the bridesmaid? Murdo has a very much over masticated piece of chewing gum vibe.
    Transitional. To achieve the split they will desperately want post July 4
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
    Too many times the bridesmaid? Murdo has a very much over masticated piece of chewing gum vibe.
    Not a MSP. And the seat Mr Ross may or may not vacate is a list one, so the next person on the list will get it automatically (mind, I didn't check who that is).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    As usual, AlanB misunderstands my argument.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to cut spending. But it is politically difficult, and the difficulties have to be directly addressed.

    The big spending quangos fall into the 'controversial' category.

    'Cutting quangos' is therefore dishonest either because it means no cuts of any real significance - or it's not being upfront about choices which are likely to be very unpopular with large parts of the electorate.

    He's criticising the parties for being dishonest about the choices which face us - which is entirely fair comment - but in this particular case doing much the same himself.
    Mr b I perfectly understand where you are but a bit surprised by it. When I raise the prospects of spending cuts - which this country will have to face up to - there is a general wailing that othing can be done. You in your business must go through costs regularly and in practice weed out the non essentials from the have to dos. Thats in a normal year, when you are having a year when you are being squeezed you get a bigger knife out. In the private sector everybody has to do it. I have spent the last 20 years running distressed companies and sometimes it gets painful but usually cuts need to be done.

    I reject your accusation that I am being dishonest I am simply flagging up that the people saying they are taking "difficult decisions" are not and need to start doing so. And while quangos are easy meat, I also threw in the pot we need to reschedule debt. Again just cries of no we cant, yet this could save anywhere upwards of £10 billion a year.
    Oddly Gordon Brown got on the case in an article over the weekend and now suddenly it's worth considering.

    As I said before if you dont go looking for savings they wont just drop in to your lap. So having said all that back to my original question would you save the £5 million.

    ( PS dont know where you found the figure my searches said OBR dont publish r=theirrunning costs )
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Phil said:

    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    Most modern cars don’t even have a spare tyre. Calling out the AA when you get a puncture is pretty much inevitable!
    Mine has a kit which squirts goo into the punctured tyre, which hardens. You have to drive around slowly for a couple of miles, then re-inflate the tyre and see if it holds. Drawn-out process, but it actually worked for me.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    glw said:

    Shut the System, a recently launched underground climate movement, partnered with Palestine Action's underground division to launch the attacks, both activist groups confirmed.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1rrzp1qwp1o

    The clue is in the name, it has little to do with Barclays indirectly investing Israel.

    Quite likely they are being egged on or supported in other ways by Russia even if they are unaware of it.
    Its the same far left groups that come back around under a different guise. In 2000s, it was smashing up banks, McDonalds, Starbucks, etc because of WTO. In 2010s, it was smashing them up because of public spending cuts. In 2024, its smashing them up because of climate change and Israel.
    I'm not saying the groups are new or founded by Russian intelligence services, but they sure as hell are trying to stir up trouble using such proxies. There have been numerous incidents across Europe where Russia is recruiting or directing criminals and protest groups to cause trouble.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Carnyx said:

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
    Too many times the bridesmaid? Murdo has a very much over masticated piece of chewing gum vibe.
    Not a MSP. And the seat Mr Ross may or may not vacate is a list one, so the next person on the list will get it automatically (mind, I didn't check who that is).
    He is an MSP if you're referring to Murdo?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    There's always a hope Roger. Electoral Calculus have it going to Labour.

    Although Esther's comedy gig seems quite popular at the hustings:

    https://x.com/JaThLa/status/1799567986329628934
    Knowing Tatton as I do (which is to say - a bit), I find the idea of it going anything other than Tory kind of an astonishing prospect - the Golden Triangle etc.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,150
    edited June 10
    carnforth said:

    Phil said:

    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    Most modern cars don’t even have a spare tyre. Calling out the AA when you get a puncture is pretty much inevitable!
    Mine has a kit which squirts goo into the punctured tyre, which hardens. You have to drive around slowly for a couple of miles, then re-inflate the tyre and see if it holds. Drawn-out process, but it actually worked for me.
    Mine has a space saver spare, which was an option.

    Used once, and I did call out the included breakdown service.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    As usual, AlanB misunderstands my argument.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to cut spending. But it is politically difficult, and the difficulties have to be directly addressed.

    The big spending quangos fall into the 'controversial' category.

    'Cutting quangos' is therefore dishonest either because it means no cuts of any real significance - or it's not being upfront about choices which are likely to be very unpopular with large parts of the electorate.

    He's criticising the parties for being dishonest about the choices which face us - which is entirely fair comment - but in this particular case doing much the same himself.
    Mr b I perfectly understand where you are but a bit surprised by it. When I raise the prospects of spending cuts - which this country will have to face up to - there is a general wailing that othing can be done. You in your business must go through costs regularly and in practice weed out the non essentials from the have to dos. Thats in a normal year, when you are having a year when you are being squeezed you get a bigger knife out. In the private sector everybody has to do it. I have spent the last 20 years running distressed companies and sometimes it gets painful but usually cuts need to be done.

    I reject your accusation that I am being dishonest I am simply flagging up that the people saying they are taking "difficult decisions" are not and need to start doing so. And while quangos are easy meat, I also threw in the pot we need to reschedule debt. Again just cries of no we cant, yet this could save anywhere upwards of £10 billion a year.
    Oddly Gordon Brown got on the case in an article over the weekend and now suddenly it's worth considering.

    As I said before if you dont go looking for savings they wont just drop in to your lap. So having said all that back to my original question would you save the £5 million.

    ( PS dont know where you found the figure my searches said OBR dont publish r=theirrunning costs )
    It would be more honest just to say cuts to public spending. The idea that there is £80 billion being spent by a few regulators on red tape is just plain wrong.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    edited June 10

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10
    It seems crazy to me that it isn't the law for car manufacturers to provide room for a proper spare and that you must have carry one.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457
    edited June 10

    Sky saying you have to go to page 112 for the Lib Dems to refer to Europe and their hope to rejoin the single market

    And yet the actual document talks about Europe on pages 7,8,9,11,12,17 and 18 - and that's just the first 10 of 65 mentions of Europe or the EU in the manifesto.

    Yes, they list an ambition to eventually join the Single Market on page 112 - but Sky are simply wrong if they're saying that the Lib Dems are otherwise silent on Europe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    AlsoLei said:

    Sky saying you have to go to page 112 for the Lib Dems to refer to Europe and their hope to rejoin the single market

    And yet the actual document talks about Europe on pages 7,8,9,11,12,17 and 18 - and that's just the first 10 of 65 mentions of Europe or the EU in the manifesto.

    Yes, they list an ambition to eventually join the Single Market on page 11 - but Sky are simply wrong if they're saying that the Lib Dems are otherwise silent on Europe.
    Sky news wrong...never....unheard of.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
    I agree with that but as in other costs cutting efforts sometimes you can just get rid of a whole department and integrate it elsewhere in the business. It's like the examples you cite who needs the coal authority ? The country will go on without it. A "difficult decision" but it needs to be made.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    I run Marathon Pluses myself and have snapped teaspoons and tyre irons getting the buggers off. It does take a lot to get through them though (I've pulled out nails, tacks, big chunks of glass etc) and in fact couple of the punctures have come from the spoke breaking and putting a hole in the inner from the wheel-rim side.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    AlsoLei said:

    Sky saying you have to go to page 112 for the Lib Dems to refer to Europe and their hope to rejoin the single market

    And yet the actual document talks about Europe on pages 7,8,9,11,12,17 and 18 - and that's just the first 10 of 65 mentions of Europe or the EU in the manifesto.

    Yes, they list an ambition to eventually join the Single Market on page 112 - but Sky are simply wrong if they're saying that the Lib Dems are otherwise silent on Europe.
    No mention of 20mph limits though, so that's BigG's vote secured!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    It seems crazy to me that it isn't the law for car manufacturers to provide room for a proper spare and that you must have carry one.

    Maybe, maybe not. I have not had a puncture that required the use of a spare in over 30 years. I do about 12,000 miles a year. Should cars also carry battery packs in case of flat batteries? etc
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    It seems crazy to me that it isn't the law for car manufacturers to provide room for a proper spare and that you must have carry one.

    Decent modern cars have run flat tyres which are good enough to get the vehicle to a garage.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,138
    edited June 10
    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    I do find it desperately sad to wander round places like Glastonbury Abbey, or the London Charterhouse, and contemplate what was lost - as well as the courage of people who were martyred in a lost cause.
    Glastonbury Abbey looks like it was one of the most beautiful churches in Europe, and many of the remaining ones in these islands are nothing special by European standards.

    England, and also Britain, gained a lot in terms of liberty of thought and tolerance, but also lost a lot by the Reformation. We've forgotten how much was on the debit side, hence the arrogant attitudes to Europe, particularly since World War II, and also a failure to see where the resulting scepticism of grand ideas has turned to turgid anti-intellectualism in our culture.
    Wasn’t our greatest contribution to thought and tolerance after the reformation? The great thinkers and writers of the enlightenment, for example Locke, Hobbes, Bacon and Newton, and later Paine, contributed far more than I can think of pre-reformation.

    Also I can’t agree re our churches being nothing special by European standards. Outside of specialities such as the Sainte-Chapelle our churches are pretty fantastic on the whole.

    Go around much of France or Switzerland and you will find very few churches that match the great churches built off the wool trade. Our college chapels are generally beautiful and often the leaks of ecclesiastical design such as King’s Canterbury.

    Sure in Catholic countries you will have lots of fluff inside their churches but the cool beauty of our churches is wonderful.
    Personally, I wouldn't rate most British churches apart from the remains of Glastonbury on the level of the cream of the Continent's, but there are some definitely some magnificent standouts and exceptions here and there, like Durham.

    Britain contributed a huge amount intellectually, bur early on, post-Reformation, not later. 18th century Britain was an intellectual powerhouse that continental Europeans came to visit and learn from, but 19th century Britain wasn't, primarily because we drew the wrong and old anti-intellectual conclusions from the Terror after the French Revolution. Science was definitely the shining exception to this, but that's because it was seen and protected as the home of sceptical enquiry.

    Post-Thatcherism, this misunderstanding of scepticism has unfotunately led us to a situation where our public culture is much more degraded and dumbed-down than France and Germany's, as mentioned yesterday with the example of the uncompromisingly intellectual discussion programmes that still abound on French television, but left ours thirty years ago. If you don't value these things as much as some of your near neighbours, they are expendable.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where its needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Thank you for illustrating my point.
    The OBR's annual spend is about £5m.
    And he hasn’t saved any money, just moved the people elsewhere - which was how the OBR was created in the first place
    As usual, AlanB misunderstands my argument.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to cut spending. But it is politically difficult, and the difficulties have to be directly addressed.

    The big spending quangos fall into the 'controversial' category.

    'Cutting quangos' is therefore dishonest either because it means no cuts of any real significance - or it's not being upfront about choices which are likely to be very unpopular with large parts of the electorate.

    He's criticising the parties for being dishonest about the choices which face us - which is entirely fair comment - but in this particular case doing much the same himself.
    Mr b I perfectly understand where you are but a bit surprised by it. When I raise the prospects of spending cuts - which this country will have to face up to - there is a general wailing that othing can be done. You in your business must go through costs regularly and in practice weed out the non essentials from the have to dos. Thats in a normal year, when you are having a year when you are being squeezed you get a bigger knife out. In the private sector everybody has to do it. I have spent the last 20 years running distressed companies and sometimes it gets painful but usually cuts need to be done.

    I reject your accusation that I am being dishonest I am simply flagging up that the people saying they are taking "difficult decisions" are not and need to start doing so. And while quangos are easy meat, I also threw in the pot we need to reschedule debt. Again just cries of no we cant, yet this could save anywhere upwards of £10 billion a year.
    Oddly Gordon Brown got on the case in an article over the weekend and now suddenly it's worth considering.

    As I said before if you dont go looking for savings they wont just drop in to your lap. So having said all that back to my original question would you save the £5 million.

    ( PS dont know where you found the figure my searches said OBR dont publish r=theirrunning costs )
    It would be more honest just to say cuts to public spending. The idea that there is £80 billion being spent by a few regulators on red tape is just plain wrong.
    Most 'public sector wastage' is caused by ministers having idiotic ideas. They should only be allowed three ideas each per parliament.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
    I agree with that but as in other costs cutting efforts sometimes you can just get rid of a whole department and integrate it elsewhere in the business. It's like the examples you cite who needs the coal authority ? The country will go on without it. A "difficult decision" but it needs to be made.
    But I bet it’s three people in an office. Not worth the political argument. I don’t disagree with a lot of rationalisation though. What you have to bear in mind though it that there are only 450,000 civil servants. For the purposes of this discussion (FCA etc.) let’s call it half a million. Average wage is probably 40K, which gets us to 20Bn. Add on 50% for NI, rents, teasing etc and you get to 30Bn.

    That will be a massive over-estimate, and even then a massive 20% reduction gets you 6Bn, which is well under 1% of annual government spend.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
    I agree with that but as in other costs cutting efforts sometimes you can just get rid of a whole department and integrate it elsewhere in the business. It's like the examples you cite who needs the coal authority ? The country will go on without it. A "difficult decision" but it needs to be made.
    But I bet it’s three people in an office. Not worth the political argument. I don’t disagree with a lot of rationalisation though. What you have to bear in mind though it that there are only 450,000 civil servants. For the purposes of this discussion (FCA etc.) let’s call it half a million. Average wage is probably 40K, which gets us to 20Bn. Add on 50% for NI, rents, teasing etc and you get to 30Bn.

    That will be a massive over-estimate, and even then a massive 20% reduction gets you 6Bn, which is well under 1% of annual government spend.
    Plus politicians of all stripes just can't help themselves; they'll create more anyway.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,150
    Ghedebrav said:

    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    I run Marathon Pluses myself and have snapped teaspoons and tyre irons getting the buggers off. It does take a lot to get through them though (I've pulled out nails, tacks, big chunks of glass etc) and in fact couple of the punctures have come from the spoke breaking and putting a hole in the inner from the wheel-rim side.
    I usually refer to them as "tractor tyres" :smile: .

    There's a whole sub-art of tips and tricks.

    One useful trick (I am told) is to carry 3 or 4 zip ties or straps, to put on one side of the tyre, which makes the other side looser and a bit easier to get off.

    But they will give 5k or 8k miles between punctures.

    Round here the tricky season is when the hawthorn hedges are cut or drop their thorns.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    I’m looking at a decrepit babushka crossing the road as I near the ravine of death. Incredible to think that it’s just about possible she personally saw Yaroslav the Wise found the city, if she is about 980 years old and she’s definitely old

    History is so much closer than we think. Its kinda humbling

    Thomas Hardy, who was taken to see a public execution when fairly young, lived into the lifetime of HM QEII as well as people I know still living.
    Yes that’s impressive but not as impressive as this old lady. She could actually have seen Yaroslav march over the Dnieper and build the Church of Tithes, on the old pagan shrines of Podil - IF she is nearly 1000 years old. And as I say she’s definitely knocking on

    That’s incredible
    For those of a historical bent, Christopher Trychay was Vicar of Morebath in Devon from 1520 to 1574 and his annotated parish accounts are a diary of the tumultuous conversion of England from what was (largely - especially in Devon) an extremely devout Catholic nation through radical Protestantism to the uneasy compromise of the Elizabethan settlement. Morebath was a small Catholic village, forced to abandon its allegiance to the Pope, forced to regain it, and then told to lose it again, in the meantime sending villagers don to Exeter to to join the Prayer Book Rebellion. Keeping his head, let alone his job, over those 54 years was quite an achievment.
    Got Eamon Duffy's history of the village. Must find it and reread it now you've reminded me.

    As Duffy himself says, it is a "pendant" to Stripping of the Altars, which is an amazing work of scholarship but gets a bit polemical in trying to wrest the narrative of the Traditionalists like AJ Dickens. The reality is quite nuanced. In England, rural upland areas seemed to be the most Catholic, while Londoners were actually getting ahead of themselves in tearing down crucifixes and altars etc before governmental injunction required it - in fact a few parishes were required to put them back up. Duffy isn't good on geographical nuance IMHO.
    I do find it desperately sad to wander round places like Glastonbury Abbey, or the London Charterhouse, and contemplate what was lost - as well as the courage of people who were martyred in a lost cause.
    Glastonbury Abbey looks like it was one of the most beautiful churches in Europe, and many of the remaining ones in these islands are nothing special by European standards.

    England, and also Britain, gained a lot in terms of liberty of thought and tolerance, but also lost a lot by the Reformation. We've forgotten how much was on the debit side, hence the arrogant attitudes to Europe, particularly since World War II, and also a failure to see where the resulting scepticism of grand ideas has turned to turgid anti-intellectualism in our culture.
    Wasn’t our greatest contribution to thought and tolerance after the reformation? The great thinkers and writers of the enlightenment, for example Locke, Hobbes, Bacon and Newton, and later Paine, contributed far more than I can think of pre-reformation.

    Also I can’t agree re our churches being nothing special by European standards. Outside of specialities such as the Sainte-Chapelle our churches are pretty fantastic on the whole.

    Go around much of France or Switzerland and you will find very few churches that match the great churches built off the wool trade. Our college chapels are generally beautiful and often the leaks of ecclesiastical design such as King’s Canterbury.

    Sure in Catholic countries you will have lots of fluff inside their churches but the cool beauty of our churches is wonderful.
    Indeed. The beauty and noom of British/English churches and cathedrals is likely peerless. As we have discussed on here French churches lack the spirituality (tho often impressive on the outside). Only Italy comes close

    If you walk into any English village there is a 20% chance you will find an architectural
    masterpiece or an historical gem (or both) at its centre
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10

    It seems crazy to me that it isn't the law for car manufacturers to provide room for a proper spare and that you must have carry one.

    Maybe, maybe not. I have not had a puncture that required the use of a spare in over 30 years. I do about 12,000 miles a year. Should cars also carry battery packs in case of flat batteries? etc
    I think the difference there is you aren't going to get a flat battery as you are driving about. Its either a serious fault on your car or you parked it for a long period with lights etc left on.

    I think Anabobazina point is a better one about cars that have run flats. Although, after a few years and the tyres need changing (particularly if you brought it 2nd hand) how many people then start putting the shitty Chinese knock-off tyres on that can't do this.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Indeed, and it’s wishful thinking that the LDs are going to suddenly morph into a centre-right orange booker party. They are liberal ‘progressive’ left and they’re not going to change overnight. Are there even any orange bookers left?
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    DM_Andy said:

    Muesli said:

    Muesli said:

    Heathener said:

    OT it’s now June 10th and the most recent opinion polls had fieldwork from 6-8th and 5th-7th.

    We need some fresh data please. They should now be post Faragasm and D-Day gate and we may have a clearer picture of how this election is heading.

    My sense is that nothing much from here will change, barring anything extraordinary. People begin voting next week ...

    Note of caution Heathener: in 1997 the Labour lead halved between this point and election day.
    In 1997, Labour were up against John Major, Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind (and John Selwyn Gummer and Peter Lilley tbf).

    This time around, they're up against *checks notes* Rishi Sunak (at the time of writing), Richard Holden, Michael Green and Kemi Badenoch.
    Labour had Prezza, Blair, Brown, Kinnock, Beckett, Cook, Livingstone and any other number of big beasts from the Wilson and Callaghan years still on the scene. Now they have *checks notes* a boring guy and that woman with shiny hair

    The paucity of talent runs rife throughout
    If your argument is that the general quality of our political class has been in freefall since 1997 (and even well before then), you'll catch no disagreement from me.
    I'm not sure about that. In the 1990s it wasn't unheard of for the older members to harumph at the paucity of talent on the Labour front bench "It used to be a cabinet of big beasts, Callaghan, Healey, Crosland, Jenkins. Now what have you got? Brown, Straw, Blunkett, not fit to lace their boots."
    And the likes of Callaghan, Healey, Crosland, Jenkins, Williams et al were compared unfavourably to Attlee, Bevan and Hardie no doubt. I guess it is the fate of every generation of politicians to be dismissed as a pale shadow of its forebears. It just feels that the current lot have a particular shortage of figures that inspire, that exude competent authority, that command respect... and I don't think that was the case in, say, 1997.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,653
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
    I agree with that but as in other costs cutting efforts sometimes you can just get rid of a whole department and integrate it elsewhere in the business. It's like the examples you cite who needs the coal authority ? The country will go on without it. A "difficult decision" but it needs to be made.
    But I bet it’s three people in an office. Not worth the political argument. I don’t disagree with a lot of rationalisation though. What you have to bear in mind though it that there are only 450,000 civil servants. For the purposes of this discussion (FCA etc.) let’s call it half a million. Average wage is probably 40K, which gets us to 20Bn. Add on 50% for NI, rents, teasing etc and you get to 30Bn.

    That will be a massive over-estimate, and even then a massive 20% reduction gets you 6Bn, which is well under 1% of annual government spend.
    Just flicking through the Coal Authority's publications and frankly it looks like interesting and important work.

    Disused colliery tip inspection is probably something we can all get behind, given prior disasters. Lots on metals pollution too.

    Mine water heating... cool! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/project-explores-potential-demand-for-mine-water-heat
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    MattW said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    I run Marathon Pluses myself and have snapped teaspoons and tyre irons getting the buggers off. It does take a lot to get through them though (I've pulled out nails, tacks, big chunks of glass etc) and in fact couple of the punctures have come from the spoke breaking and putting a hole in the inner from the wheel-rim side.
    I usually refer to them as "tractor tyres" :smile: .

    There's a whole sub-art of tips and tricks.

    One useful trick (I am told) is to carry 3 or 4 zip ties or straps, to put on one side of the tyre, which makes the other side looser and a bit easier to get off.

    But they will give 5k or 8k miles between punctures.

    Round here the tricky season is when the hawthorn hedges are cut or drop their thorns.
    It's roadside debris for me, and the notoriously crap state of Manchester's roads in general.

    The zip-tie trick is interesting, though my favourite trick is to take it to my local bike shop for a service which will likely be overdue at the time of puncture anyway :)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    If things go as currently anticipated it will be interesting to see how this affects the stability of all political parties going forward. The Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having someone clearly unsuited to the role in the position of leader. Up to now, even if this was not optimal, one would expect swing back and old time loyalties to reduce that cost to tolerable levels. In the more febrile present it appears that that is not the case.

    I think this will make MPs, and not just Tory MPs, much more anxious about their leadership in future. If Starmer is not cutting the mustard in 2-3 years time there will be 200-300 Labour MPs worried about their future. The consequences of the complacency and arrogance of this episode will burn deep in their souls.

    Technically I think the Tories are about to pay a terrible price for having three people unsuited to the role as leader, one after another.
    The leaders dont help, but lack of policies is the bigger problem.
    "Cutting quangos" isn't a policy; it's a slogan.
    Like the earlier 'bonfire of the quangos', it's meaningless in financial or policy terms.

    Eg, would you scrap the rest of HS2 ?
    Cut your 4% from NHS England ?

    Or a you just talking about a few million pounds from scrapping some of the obscure ones few would miss ?
    Yes, you routinely come up with this drivel by chosing the most contoversial things to cut. Quangos are off balance sheet government. They employ something like 700,000 people and cost anywhere from £40 -80 billion depending on whose numbers you chose to believe. There are over 750 of them.

    You say you couldnt find savings in that. You shouldnt be put in charge of a budget. Like any cost savings you start with a target, protect the essentials and eliminate nice to dos and not needed. Then you end up with a potential list.

    Ive already said as an example I'd close the OBR we lived without it prior to Osborne. Merge its with the BoE or the Treasury for forecasts and take the headcount savings. Then look at the other 750. It may well be you find more savings than you wanted, so park a budget and put some money back where it’s needed. I'd go for infrastructure.

    Quangos are not (usually) off balance sheet. And they usually have a statutory purpose. Taking the OBR as an example, before there was an OBR there was a forecasting team in HMT: pretty much exactly the same team operating from the same desks.
    Of course but you can repeal laws. The treasury still does forecasts so now we're paying twice over for the same service and in the OBRs case they admit their forecasts are consistently out and not timely. Would you spend £5 million on that or spend it on something more useful ?
    No, Treasury uses the OBR numbers.

    On laws. Yes, you can start to deregulate but your getting into something far more complex than just “cutting quangos”:

    As noted above, many regulators charge their industry for the service and much if the other stuff is political third rail stuff: good luck cutting the Coal Authority or Historic England for example. We don’t really need either, but they don’t cost much and those who love them really love them.
    You seem to be saying nobody can take difficult decisions
    No, I’m saying they take different ones, routinely. In the case of the public sector the decision has routinely been made to depress salaries to retain staff numbers. I’d increase salaries and reduce staff, and do that fairly evenly in most areas but in an accelerated manner where, for example, AI can help boost productivity.

    In the Whitehall centre the standard staff turnover in post is about 20%, so you don’t even need redundancies if you reshape the teams. The problem with most recruitment freezes is that no one plans for it, and all the holes randomly appear where all your best people (usually the first to move on) happen to leave. What’s needed is proper org redesign (and no, I don’t mean you hire McKinsey, it can be done internally).
    I agree with that but as in other costs cutting efforts sometimes you can just get rid of a whole department and integrate it elsewhere in the business. It's like the examples you cite who needs the coal authority ? The country will go on without it. A "difficult decision" but it needs to be made.
    But I bet it’s three people in an office. Not worth the political argument. I don’t disagree with a lot of rationalisation though. What you have to bear in mind though it that there are only 450,000 civil servants. For the purposes of this discussion (FCA etc.) let’s call it half a million. Average wage is probably 40K, which gets us to 20Bn. Add on 50% for NI, rents, teasing etc and you get to 30Bn.

    That will be a massive over-estimate, and even then a massive 20% reduction gets you 6Bn, which is well under 1% of annual government spend.
    Quangos have 700,000 employees so thats 1.2 million at a time when we are being told we have to import people to do the jobs. At a time when we have a deficit of £50 billion we should be taking any saving we can get.
    .
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580
    Might it be worth betting on Labour in Bexhill and Battle, if the Reform candidate gets disavowed?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Indeed, and it’s wishful thinking that the LDs are going to suddenly morph into a centre-right orange booker party. They are liberal ‘progressive’ left and they’re not going to change overnight. Are there even any orange bookers left?
    Yes, in some respects the LD manifesto is left of Starmer Labour, including a massive rise in council tax for second homes and restoration of student grants. Davey clearly trying to attract left liberals disillusioned by a centrist, authoritarian Labour Party as Kennedy did to Blair New Labour.

    Clearly only Reform are a real alternative to the Tories on the right
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078

    Carnyx said:

    Ok, I know it's ultimately an exercise in politcal irrelevancy, but which of the rich smörgåsbord of talent on the Holyrood benches is next SCon leader? I'm going for Sandesh 'does my hair look good' Gulhane, with a lol saver on Annie Wells.

    Murdo
    on the Orient Express?
    Could be!
    I think it's him though, the SCons will split from the UK party per his plan and he's the obvious man to poke at Swinney whilst he's there. Possible he'll be an interim to achieve the split and then hand on after 2026
    Too many times the bridesmaid? Murdo has a very much over masticated piece of chewing gum vibe.
    Not a MSP. And the seat Mr Ross may or may not vacate is a list one, so the next person on the list will get it automatically (mind, I didn't check who that is).
    He is an MSP if you're referring to Murdo?
    Murdo Fraser is a list MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife, We were university contemporaries, although politically very different brands. We got on OK back then, and he has certainly mellowed a fair deal with age. He might yet get there.
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580
    Aren't a lot of potential Lib Dem voters, also owners of second homes?

    I think it's an interesting policy idea for sure but am surprised the LDs have gone for it!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,987
    I've skimmed through the whole Lib Dem manifesto document, as I'll need to be au fait with its contents on fiscal policy for my work later, but also out of interest as a party member.

    There is much to applaud in there - whilst it's very much on the social democrat end of the Lib Dem spectrum, their manifestos often are. But it pains me to say that many of the tax policies are ill-advised and badly thought out.

    The share buyback tax would be introduced in a completely different context from Biden's, and might well raise virtually nothing. The "proper, one off windfall tax" on upstream oil and gas makes the same category error that Labour make in confusing global profits with UK upstream activity, and could end up drying up future investment.

    As for pushing for a global minimum tax of 21% rather than the current 15%, that's just silly. It's both unfair (why should smaller resource-poor countries be forced to tax at rates that suit large countries with resources or large markets?), and politically unworkable - not going to happen. And finally, all it does is shuffle tax revenue among rich countries, in an inefficient way. It does nothing to increase tax take by developing countries.

    They do have some other decent tax policies but those three suggest they really should have taken some expert advice.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    HYUFD said:

    Indeed, and it’s wishful thinking that the LDs are going to suddenly morph into a centre-right orange booker party. They are liberal ‘progressive’ left and they’re not going to change overnight. Are there even any orange bookers left?
    Yes, in some respects the LD manifesto is left of Starmer Labour, including a massive rise in council tax for second homes and restoration of student grants. Davey clearly trying to attract left liberals disillusioned by a centrist, authoritarian Labour Party as Kennedy did to Blair New Labour.

    Clearly only Reform are a real alternative to the Tories on the right
    Reform need to stop banging on about migration everybody knows where they stand, they need to put some focus on cost of living if they want to pick up extra votes.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    MattW said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    MattW said:

    This is my picture for the day.


    https://x.com/tricyclemayor/status/1798998515718500596

    It is the tricycle of Dr Harrie Larrington-Spencer (@tricyclemayor on Twitter, who is doing research into whether physical barriers reduce motorcycle ASB) being rescued by a recovery service after she had a puncture. For techies the tyres are Marathon Pluses (removing them makes a strong man weep) running Tannus inserts - it must have been one hell of a drawing pin. It is a Babboe Flow Mountain e-cargo bike which weighs 69kg, and has a stepless gearbox.

    Reactions have been interesting in the desire to avoid the underlying point - that especially for disabled people such vehicles give autonomy and equality. Far fewer disabled have driving licences - 40% of adults do not vs 25% of able-bodied.

    eg "Not able to do basic repairs should not be on the road". Fascinating doublethink - no mention of those of us who call out the AA to a spare tyre.

    I run Marathon Pluses myself and have snapped teaspoons and tyre irons getting the buggers off. It does take a lot to get through them though (I've pulled out nails, tacks, big chunks of glass etc) and in fact couple of the punctures have come from the spoke breaking and putting a hole in the inner from the wheel-rim side.
    I usually refer to them as "tractor tyres" :smile: .

    There's a whole sub-art of tips and tricks.

    One useful trick (I am told) is to carry 3 or 4 zip ties or straps, to put on one side of the tyre, which makes the other side looser and a bit easier to get off.

    But they will give 5k or 8k miles between punctures.

    Round here the tricky season is when the hawthorn hedges are cut or drop their thorns.
    I've always bought more pliable and less resistant tyres like the delta cruiser plus. You have a slightly higher chance of a puncture but at least they will come off on a cold, wet and windy night.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    I doubt the Liberal Democrats will be that bothered by a negative review from Guido. It'd be like Reform UK pinning their hopes on a glowing editorial by the Canary.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Undecided voters are turning away from the Conservatives, according to new
    @JLPartnersPolls modelling that if replicated at the election would kill off Rishi Sunak’s already slim chances of avoiding a huge defeat

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1800141295467593949
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    edited June 10
    Muesli said:

    I doubt the Liberal Democrats will be that bothered by a negative review from Guido. It'd be like Reform UK pinning their hopes on a glowing editorial by the Canary.
    Obviously, but my point was the policies are much further to the left than the Lib Dems of 10 years ago, where they were making the pitch for combination of centre and centre left, with Orange Bookers being in charge.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Anyone know if Esther Mcvey has a chance of losing in Tatton? I'm looking for constituency odds. That one's not dshowing up on Ladbrokes

    Tatton is 130th safest seat so on the YouGov MRP it's on the edge
    Election Maps UK has Labour winning Tatton with 37.8% to 30% for the Tories and 15.6% for Reform,.

    So Reform will likely cost the Tories the seat
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    Serves them right, they chose Osborne as an MP
  • lockhimuplockhimup Posts: 59
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reform candidate said UK should have been neutral against Hitler

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmrwexv4ko
    A Reform UK candidate claimed the country would be "far better" if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality" instead of fighting the Nazis in World War Two.
    Ian Gribbin, the party's candidate in Bexhill and Battle, also wrote online that women were the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of health care".
    In posts from 2022 on the Unherd magazine website, seen by the BBC, he said Winston Churchill was "abysmal" and praised Russian President Vladimir Putin...

    He'll be suspended by Farage pretty soon.
    If he isn't he may well cost the parachute-in Conservative the seat.

    Labour got 25% in 2017. Lots of metropolitan types have moved here from London over the last 5 years or so.
    With a bit of help from LDs and general swing Labour should go up to around 40%
    Reform getting to 16/17% would make it a toss up.
    There's a reform candidate too.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,994
    Scott_xP said:

    @alexwickham

    NEW: Undecided voters are turning away from the Conservatives, according to new
    @JLPartnersPolls modelling that if replicated at the election would kill off Rishi Sunak’s already slim chances of avoiding a huge defeat

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1800141295467593949

    Tory campaign going well...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited June 10

    HYUFD said:

    Indeed, and it’s wishful thinking that the LDs are going to suddenly morph into a centre-right orange booker party. They are liberal ‘progressive’ left and they’re not going to change overnight. Are there even any orange bookers left?
    Yes, in some respects the LD manifesto is left of Starmer Labour, including a massive rise in council tax for second homes and restoration of student grants. Davey clearly trying to attract left liberals disillusioned by a centrist, authoritarian Labour Party as Kennedy did to Blair New Labour.

    Clearly only Reform are a real alternative to the Tories on the right
    Reform need to stop banging on about migration everybody knows where they stand, they need to put some focus on cost of living if they want to pick up extra votes.
    Reform have proposed raising the IHT threshold to £2 million, clearly their focus is on anti immigration white working class Leavers and upper middle class Thatcherite rich southern rightwing home owners and their heirs
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