Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
Or you're a government agency, in which case you bleed staff and institutional knowledge until the responsible department points out to Treasury important things are going to close if they don't stop that.
Sunak should have been there throughout Macron should have been there at the start, disappeared for most of it and then returned at the end Biden should have turned up half way through
So the Italians should have opposed it until they could see it was going to be a success, and then joined in? And the Russians should have had their own celebration some miles away, and refused to give back the keys to the venue?
Deeply shocked by the assault on my colleague and friend Mette Frederiksen in Copenhagen. I strongly condemn any form of violence against democratically elected leaders in our free societies. My thoughts are with you, and I wish you strength during this difficult time."
How the dickens can England be losing to Iceland at football?
It says on scoreboard ISL which spelt correctly should be Israel, there is no S in Iceland
Erm no. Iceland. In their own language it is spelt Island.
Yes well this is English TV not Icelandic TV
And English TV follows standard international codes for naming countries.
ISL is the three letter code for ISLand funnily enough.
Also funnily enough ISR is the three letter code for ISRael.
Why would Israel be ISL instead of ISR?
I wish I could remember where I've put my I-Spy Guide to International Number Plates. There are still one or two I've yet to clock on the M40 and both ISR and ISL may be among them.
Meanwhile England currently losing to Israel in the football, so no Euros bounce likely for Rishi
You know this isn't the Euros, right?
I know you're gutted that your beloved Wales aren't in it, but pay attention!
Nor is it Israel playing - HY has Sunak levels of football knowledge.
Yes, I saw someone else had picked this up before me so left it alone.
If one went to a public school like Rishi and I football is rugby football and the game on now is soccer
No no no. If you're using soccer in the public school framing (assocker from association football ) then the other is rugger Soccer and rugger or association football and rugby football
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
As has been pointed out, it’s a competitive market & the UK has full employment right now. If you (as an employer) don’t spend what it takes to snag an employee, somebody else will.
The reason wages are so poor in this country is because UK plc is woefully unproductive, for a variety of reasons including an under-skilled workforce, poor management, expensive costs & immense difficulties in expanding profitable companies due to a sclerotic planning system that puts the interests of retired busybodies over economic growth at every turn. Employers can’t pay more than an employee is worth to them (including all taxes and costs) or they’ll very shortly go out of business.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
Oh, that reminded me, the one misstep that I thought Denyer made when she said that medical student was entering a vocation. Vocation tends to be code for we don't really need to pay you as much because you're there for higher reasons.
Sunak should have been there throughout Macron should have been there at the start, disappeared for most of it and then returned at the end Biden should have turned up half way through
The Canadians ....
...would apologise for being late, despite arriving early.
Jon Craig Sky political correspondent thinks Mordaunt was class and very polished . Jeez is he drunk !
I like Penny but really she wasn’t great tonight .
According the FT team, most of the social media chatter is about how annoying she was and her hairdo being rubbish or something. I'm not sure that's a sign of cut-through.
Sunak should have been there throughout Macron should have been there at the start, disappeared for most of it and then returned at the end Biden should have turned up half way through
Simon Harris should have said he was not attending, but then come anyway in an unofficial capacity.
This violence and abuse of our politicians has got to stop.
Do you remember the assassination attempt on Nigel (according to Nigel)? Someone didn't tighten the wheel nuts on his Volvo and the wheels came off in France. A similar thing happened to Rishi yesterday.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Meanwhile England currently losing to Israel in the football, so no Euros bounce likely for Rishi
You know this isn't the Euros, right?
I know you're gutted that your beloved Wales aren't in it, but pay attention!
Nor is it Israel playing - HY has Sunak levels of football knowledge.
Yes, I saw someone else had picked this up before me so left it alone.
If one went to a public school like Rishi and I football is rugby football and the game on now is soccer
No no no. If you're using soccer in the public school framing (assocker from association football ) then the other is rugger Soccer and rugger or association football and rugby football
I t helps to remember the mnemonic: rugger bugger.
Meanwhile England currently losing to Israel in the football, so no Euros bounce likely for Rishi
You know this isn't the Euros, right?
I know you're gutted that your beloved Wales aren't in it, but pay attention!
Nor is it Israel playing - HY has Sunak levels of football knowledge.
Yes, I saw someone else had picked this up before me so left it alone.
If one went to a public school like Rishi and I football is rugby football and the game on now is soccer
No no no. If you're using soccer in the public school framing (assocker from association football ) then the other is rugger Soccer and rugger or association football and rugby football
Not necessarily, we had soccer and football. Neither were rugby.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Yes, its happened to me on at least three occasions when I've received totally unexpected pay rises.
And for many others at my workplace - I've heard, and sometimes said myself, the phrase "X is being paid below what he is worth we need to bump him up a few thousand" many times.
Its what good employers often do to encourage their workers to develop themselves and as a precaution that they might look for alternative work.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Yes absolutely that situation happens all the time, whenever that employers competitors are offering £x+y then the employer can't afford to only offer £x unless they want to lose all of their good employees.
As you acknowledge, competition exists.
Currently the competition has to price in NI, which means they reduce wages proportionately as its a direct cost to them for employing someone. Remove employers NI and the competition can afford to pay more, which when we have full employment means only one thing.
I don't think the employment market works that effectively, at least it doesn't at the lower wage levels in my experience. I spent over a decade in one job at around £25k/year before realising that I was being underpaid, left for another job, my old employer advertised what was effectively my old job for £35k and within 3 years I was earning £50k.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Been on TV many times since then. You are something of an Enigma. Kids that can be left while you write books in Norway, so adult, but doesn’t remember the late seventies (or re-runs in the eighties). Uses a stick to beat people off in supermarkets. I guess we all have our knowledge gaps - music is mine. So often on PB reports that X or Y has died and I have no idea who they are.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
It’s set during the oil crisis of the seventies where people were conserving energy by boiling a kettle and saving it in a flask. Ahead of it’s time.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
Oh, that reminded me, the one misstep that I thought Denyer made when she said that medical student was entering a vocation. Vocation tends to be code for we don't really need to pay you as much because you're there for higher reasons.
Well that certainly doesn't apply to medicine. Wheelbarrows full of cash. And that is just the pension.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
If you only knew things that happened during your time that would preclude almost all of human history.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
Oh, that reminded me, the one misstep that I thought Denyer made when she said that medical student was entering a vocation. Vocation tends to be code for we don't really need to pay you as much because you're there for higher reasons.
And yet there is something to this. People expecting to go into medicine will be expected to show a certain vocation for the career. They will have undertaken work experience/shadowing etc, and voluntary work. Arguably my job is a vocation. You can get far better paid with my level of experience in science than I get as a lecturer at Uni.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Yes absolutely that situation happens all the time, whenever that employers competitors are offering £x+y then the employer can't afford to only offer £x unless they want to lose all of their good employees.
As you acknowledge, competition exists.
Currently the competition has to price in NI, which means they reduce wages proportionately as its a direct cost to them for employing someone. Remove employers NI and the competition can afford to pay more, which when we have full employment means only one thing.
I don't think the employment market works that effectively, at least it doesn't at the lower wage levels in my experience. I spent over a decade in one job at around £25k/year before realising that I was being underpaid, left for another job, my old employer advertised what was effectively my old job for £35k and within 3 years I was earning £50k.
As an employer I absolutely would take NI into account when determining what we could afford to pay.
If I did not, then HMRC would still demand their money and failing to pay it would not be an option.
Direct taxes affect prices, always have done, always will do. Suggesting Employers NI doesn't affect wages is as preposterous as saying fuel duty or alcohol duty doesn't affect fuel or alcohol prices.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
Watching The Acolyte (in sympathy with TSE). I get that the tech is resolutely 1970s - that’s just the origin story - but why is the costume aesthetic Middle Ages ?
That'll be the one that Farage was asked about and said that the original candidate had known about the possibility for months and was completely okay with it?
The debate? A lot of shouting and some blatant lies.
Question for PB Tories - how did that work for you last time?
The sad (for everyone) reality is that Farage made a far more rationale case than Mordaunt. For both how we got here and what we do about it.
This is E.L.E. looking large in the sky. Don't Look Up! Pretend the huge lump of rock isn't about to kill you. Instead rage rage rage against the awful traitors saying that massive lump of rock is about to kill you.
On the subject of the To The Manor Born, it's been repeated on BBC4 over the last year.
In my more impatient youth I used to to find it a bit irritating, but it's dated surprisingly well. Penelope Keith is much more likeable than she is in the Good Life, and it has a. slowness and intimate, gentle charm that has generally disappeared from British TV. I particularly liked a subtle and slow episode where she and Richard do very little other than argue and look for the most scenic views for a picnic by a stream. It now looks more like the 1950's than the 1980's, at the same time, which is also the effect of Yes Minister, and the country it describes has gone, for both good and ill.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Yes absolutely that situation happens all the time, whenever that employers competitors are offering £x+y then the employer can't afford to only offer £x unless they want to lose all of their good employees.
As you acknowledge, competition exists.
Currently the competition has to price in NI, which means they reduce wages proportionately as its a direct cost to them for employing someone. Remove employers NI and the competition can afford to pay more, which when we have full employment means only one thing.
I don't think the employment market works that effectively, at least it doesn't at the lower wage levels in my experience. I spent over a decade in one job at around £25k/year before realising that I was being underpaid, left for another job, my old employer advertised what was effectively my old job for £35k and within 3 years I was earning £50k.
My experience over the years too, they wont give you what you can get so you change jobs....in 1997 I went from Ici after I asked for a pay rise and got turned down and got an immediate 59% pay rise
Farage must have the easiest job on that stage. He does what he does well, but it must be shooting fish in a barrel.
Never really understood that idiom. Unless the barrel is completely packed with fish, it would actually be quite hard to shoot one.
Also, the drag of water is really high. If you fire a bullet into a pool, it rapidly loses forward momentum. All the fish need to do is hang out near the bottom of the barrel. First thing they teach in fish school.
You watched Mythbusters too?
I didn't, but I have seen plenty of videos on YouTube of bullets being shot in water.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I worked out the security guards were getting paid more than me at one point. Fair play to them for that salary, but it did make me double take.
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
The assault on Frederiksen happened in Kultorvet, which is a cobbled square near Noerreport, Denmark's busiest station. I'm assuming there was an election event there, they go to the polls on Sunday. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a couple of weeks, Saint Hans' Day near the solstice is a day when politicians traditionally give speeches at big public bonfire events. They often mingle with the crowd at these events.
One of the sadder things about standing for office is the security briefing...
On the subject of the To The Manor Born, it's been repeated on BBC4 over the last year.
In my more impatient youth I used to to find it a bit irritating, but it's dated surprisingly well. Penelope Keith is much more likeable than she is in the Good Life, and it has a. slowness and intimate, gentle charm that has generally disappeared from British TV. I particularly liked a subtle and slow episode where she and Richard look for the most scenic views for a picnic by a stream. It now looks more like the 1950's than the 1980's, at the same time, and like Yes Minister, and the country it describes has gone, for both good and ill.
The thing about Yes Minister is that every time I watch an episode I have to remember that it's not based on a headline I saw the other day.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Yes absolutely that situation happens all the time, whenever that employers competitors are offering £x+y then the employer can't afford to only offer £x unless they want to lose all of their good employees.
As you acknowledge, competition exists.
Currently the competition has to price in NI, which means they reduce wages proportionately as its a direct cost to them for employing someone. Remove employers NI and the competition can afford to pay more, which when we have full employment means only one thing.
I don't think the employment market works that effectively, at least it doesn't at the lower wage levels in my experience. I spent over a decade in one job at around £25k/year before realising that I was being underpaid, left for another job, my old employer advertised what was effectively my old job for £35k and within 3 years I was earning £50k.
As an employer I absolutely would take NI into account when determining what we could afford to pay.
If I did not, then HMRC would still demand their money and failing to pay it would not be an option.
Direct taxes affect prices, always have done, always will do. Suggesting Employers NI doesn't affect wages is as preposterous as saying fuel duty or alcohol duty doesn't affect fuel or alcohol prices.
Yes, but in my example, the employer knew that to replace me would cost £10k+extra Employers NI more (and they were willing to pay that as they did) but they give me that extra money. If they did, I might still be there.
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
Not a bloody prayer.
They could do well, if they were set up to play truly attacking football. Proper “you scoring one is fine because we’ll get three”.
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
Not a bloody prayer.
It’s a soddingvwarm up game. It’s like pre season friendlies. Someone commented on Monday that they really should be played behind closed doors.
I don’t think England will win the Euros, but I don’t think this match bears any relation to how we will play in 9 days time.
The debate? A lot of shouting and some blatant lies.
Question for PB Tories - how did that work for you last time?
The sad (for everyone) reality is that Farage made a far more rationale case than Mordaunt. For both how we got here and what we do about it.
This is E.L.E. looking large in the sky. Don't Look Up! Pretend the huge lump of rock isn't about to kill you. Instead rage rage rage against the awful traitors saying that massive lump of rock is about to kill you.
That massive lump of rock is populated by friendly aliens who've come to help us sort out our problems. It would be a pity if we settled our differences in order to blow it up.
Have I seen this movie already, or just imagined it?
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I am not saying its always the same, just mentioning that often public sector roles are not as underpaid as they seem due to the hidden pension contributions from the employer
On the subject of the To The Manor Born, it's been repeated on BBC4 over the last year.
In my more impatient youth I used to to find it a bit irritating, but it's dated surprisingly well. Penelope Keith is much more likeable than she is in the Good Life, and it has a. slowness and intimate, gentle charm that has generally disappeared from British TV. I particularly liked a subtle and slow episode where she and Richard look for the most scenic views for a picnic by a stream. It now looks more like the 1950's than the 1980's, at the same time, and like Yes Minister, and the country it describes has gone, for both good and ill.
Its a very interesting piece of television really. Shows the slow death and decay of the old money as Audrey has to sell up the Manor and live in the gate house (still with butler and gardener of course!), the passing of the old guard and landowners and the new money of the Eastern European immigrant supermarket owner buying her out. Says everything about the progress of the UK from end of war to the new world of Thatcherism
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Been on TV many times since then. You are something of an Enigma. Kids that can be left while you write books in Norway, so adult, but doesn’t remember the late seventies (or re-runs in the eighties). Uses a stick to beat people off in supermarkets. I guess we all have our knowledge gaps - music is mine. So often on PB reports that X or Y has died and I have no idea who they are.
Music used to be one of my specialist subjects, I just looked at the current top 20 singles and the only one I know (by artist/title) is Houdini by Eminem, that is a new entry at #1.
Btw for interest due to a couple of threads ago recommending exmouth constituency as a betting opportunity.....well I live here still yet to have a single leaflet or canvasser visit
Something interesting I spotted during the debate. A bit of a Molotov-Ribbentrop vibe between Rayner and Cooper.
Every other participant criticised Labour. Daisy didn’t. Rayner hit back at Flynn, Farage and (briefly) the green and the Plaid man, but not at Daisy.
Daisy said how we need more community police officers. When Angela said the same thing she looked over to Daisy in acknowledgement of who said it first.
Very unlike the Lib-Lab relationship of 2010-2019.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I am not saying its always the same, just mentioning that often public sector roles are not as underpaid as they seem due to the hidden pension contributions from the employer
Not much bloody use when you can't pay the bills right now.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
and once again Farage picks out something he know will get votes - he is some performer
The student loan thing is particularly galling since (as I understand things, I’m sure there was a recent article about this in the Economist or somewhere similar?) it would have been /cheaper/ just to pay out student grants. But no, we had to create a complicated loan scheme with all the hideously expensive bureaucracy to go with it instead.
The student loan debacle is also one of the drivers behind the imminent collapse of the UK university sector because, despite a decade of inflation since the fee cap was put in place, the government has refused to increase it at all. So university fees are now the equivalent of £6500 in 2012. Unsurprisingly, things are starting to fall apart at the seams.
I vaguely remember claims back in 2011 that universities would compete to offer the best value and that £6000 would likely become the standard level of student fees with only the top places charging the top fees.
Instead they all decided to charge maximum fees with immediate effect.
& now they’re all charging £6.5k in real terms and universities are completely reliant on income from foreign students to keep the lights on. This is not a recipe for stability & economic growth.
£6.5k in real terms being double what they were charging in 2010, so what's the problem?
The fees charged in 2010 were topped up by government grants to the higher education sector. These were removed when the £9k fee system was introduced. The £9k limit was roughly equal to the sum of the £3k fee & the grant paid per student at the time I believe.
(Anyone have any actual figures? I haven’t found any with a brief search, but I’m sure they exist somewhere...)
NB my partner (who works in HE) says: “students arriving in 2012 were under the mistaken impression that we (the university) now had 3x as much money to spend on them, when in fact we had no more than we had the previous year”.
I don’t know whether the direct grant was a block grant or per student, but it does suggest that the net cost per student was roughly unchanged. from 2011->2012.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I am not saying its always the same, just mentioning that often public sector roles are not as underpaid as they seem due to the hidden pension contributions from the employer
That's very true, but it's also true that a good pension doesn't do you much good if you can't pay your gas bill.
Farage must have the easiest job on that stage. He does what he does well, but it must be shooting fish in a barrel.
Never really understood that idiom. Unless the barrel is completely packed with fish, it would actually be quite hard to shoot one.
Also, the drag of water is really high. If you fire a bullet into a pool, it rapidly loses forward momentum. All the fish need to do is hang out near the bottom of the barrel. First thing they teach in fish school.
You watched Mythbusters too?
I didn't, but I have seen plenty of videos on YouTube of bullets being shot in water.
Oh it’s good. They rented(!) a swimming pool and shot various guns into it, then went looking for the bullets to see how deformed they were. It finished with a .50 that turned to dust!
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
Not a bloody prayer.
It’s a soddingvwarm up game. It’s like pre season friendlies. Someone commented on Monday that they really should be played behind closed doors.
I don’t think England will win the Euros, but I don’t think this match bears any relation to how we will play in 9 days time.
Well, we shall see. But the denouement of the last European Championship - at home, not conceding a single goal for the whole tournament, and still managing to throw it in a penalty shootout - does not inspire confidence. For whatever reason, the men's team seems utterly incapable of winning anything.
All he had to do is pick his best players for the Euros, the ones the fans like, get out of the group stages and lose to Germany on penalties and another two years in the bag.
One shot on target, losing a pre-tournament friendly to Iceland on the day he drops fan favourites isn't the best start.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I am not saying its always the same, just mentioning that often public sector roles are not as underpaid as they seem due to the hidden pension contributions from the employer
Not much bloody use when you can't pay the bills right now.
No but was always the case the public sector got lower pay now for the expectations of better pensions later. My father is typical of this he complains how low his pay was when he was working but his public sector pension is 20 odd k a year
Something interesting I spotted during the debate. A bit of a Molotov-Ribbentrop vibe between Rayner and Cooper.
Every other participant criticised Labour. Daisy didn’t. Rayner hit back at Flynn, Farage and (briefly) the green and the Plaid man, but not at Daisy.
Daisy said how we need more community police officers. When Angela said the same thing she looked over to Daisy in acknowledgement of who said it first.
Very unlike the Lib-Lab relationship of 2010-2019.
Probably suits the Tory 'truthful' campaign in the Blue Wall - send proper opposition to Westminster not Labour's little helpers
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Do you only know about things that have happened in your lifetime?
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Been on TV many times since then. You are something of an Enigma. Kids that can be left while you write books in Norway, so adult, but doesn’t remember the late seventies (or re-runs in the eighties). Uses a stick to beat people off in supermarkets. I guess we all have our knowledge gaps - music is mine. So often on PB reports that X or Y has died and I have no idea who they are.
Music used to be one of my specialist subjects, I just looked at the current top 20 singles and the only one I know (by artist/title) is Houdini by Eminem, that is a new entry at #1.
Other than Eminem, I heard #4 (A bar song (Tipsy)) for the first time earlier today, my wife asked me to play it while driving which was a challenge with the speech recognition as at first it just played a random bar song playlist instead.
Both my wife and I love #10 (Austin), that's a lot of fun and one I regularly play.
My wife likes #19 (Beautiful Things) so I listen to that a few times, I'm not too fussed with it.
The rest of the Top 20 I don't recognise. But then again a lot of the music I stream is new[ish] but may never have made the Top 20 in this country, music like other entertainment forms is a lot more diverse nowadays, we don't all listen to the same things.
Something interesting I spotted during the debate. A bit of a Molotov-Ribbentrop vibe between Rayner and Cooper.
Every other participant criticised Labour. Daisy didn’t. Rayner hit back at Flynn, Farage and (briefly) the green and the Plaid man, but not at Daisy.
Daisy said how we need more community police officers. When Angela said the same thing she looked over to Daisy in acknowledgement of who said it first.
Very unlike the Lib-Lab relationship of 2010-2019.
Probably suits the Tory 'truthful' campaign in the Blue Wall - send proper opposition to Westminster not Labour's little helpers
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Been on TV many times since then. You are something of an Enigma. Kids that can be left while you write books in Norway, so adult, but doesn’t remember the late seventies (or re-runs in the eighties). Uses a stick to beat people off in supermarkets. I guess we all have our knowledge gaps - music is mine. So often on PB reports that X or Y has died and I have no idea who they are.
Music used to be one of my specialist subjects, I just looked at the current top 20 singles and the only one I know (by artist/title) is Houdini by Eminem, that is a new entry at #1.
It's remarkable that people like Eminem and Beyoncé are still having number one songs in 2024. That's a level of resilience somewhere between Macca and Cliff Richard.
Something interesting I spotted during the debate. A bit of a Molotov-Ribbentrop vibe between Rayner and Cooper.
Every other participant criticised Labour. Daisy didn’t. Rayner hit back at Flynn, Farage and (briefly) the green and the Plaid man, but not at Daisy.
Daisy said how we need more community police officers. When Angela said the same thing she looked over to Daisy in acknowledgement of who said it first.
Very unlike the Lib-Lab relationship of 2010-2019.
Probably suits the Tory 'truthful' campaign in the Blue Wall - send proper opposition to Westminster not Labour's little helpers
I really don’t see that working
They'll push it on the doorsteps I'm sure in LD Tory fights, I'm not expecting a PEB on it
BREAKING: Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron exchanged messages and held a video call with someone purporting to be former Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, but the interactions were later determined to be a hoax.
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
Not a bloody prayer.
It’s a soddingvwarm up game. It’s like pre season friendlies. Someone commented on Monday that they really should be played behind closed doors.
I don’t think England will win the Euros, but I don’t think this match bears any relation to how we will play in 9 days time.
Well, we shall see. But the denouement of the last European Championship - at home, not conceding a single goal for the whole tournament, and still managing to throw it in a penalty shootout - does not inspire confidence. For whatever reason, the men's team seems utterly incapable of winning anything.
Odd, I thought Italy scored in the final? I get your point. Something not right in the killer instinct. In the WC against Croatia they needed the second goal and didn’t get it. Against Italy they needed the second goal and … we know the rest.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Do you only know about things that have happened in your lifetime?
Most people know things that happened in their lifetime better, yes.
I know To the Manor Born as it was still getting repeated in the 90s when I was a teen, but I wouldn't expect anyone younger than me to know it.
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
Peter Bowles, but his character was Richard De Vere...
Penny Mordaunt is hectoring and constantly interrupting. Really hope she loses her seat. Ghastly woman.
Less of the misogyny please, referring to her sex as a derogatory point is beneath you. You could have said “ghastly person” but ghastly woman is so loaded with some retro sexist memories of “to the manor born” and all that.
I like how all the OnlyFans references were ok but "ghastly woman" was somehow noteworthy
I was being ever so serious. Heathener is suitably strong, apparently accomplished and confident to give it out and take it back - it would probs be more sexist to think anyone had to rein it in because she’s a she.
Yeah I don’t have a problem with you calling it out. But what is to the manor born?
Really? Penelope Kieth, Richard Bowles? Huge in the late 1970s.
I don’t know who they are. Before my time.
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
Do you only know about things that have happened in your lifetime?
No obvs not but asking someone to know about some ancient tv show from 50 years ago at a time when there were, what 3 channels, 4 channels? is very silly.
Things which matter from back then I know about, like the universal suffrage election in 1929 to which I was referring earlier.
And on this subject, I want to know how we can attract younger people to this site? One for reflection for after the election.
Farage’s stat on the number of people paying the 40p rate is remarkable if true.
I'm now in the 40p rate and I'm completely fine with it, I earn a decent wedge and happy to pay my fair share. I believe the old line "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a good one to follow.
Don’t forget that your employer is paying 13.8% NI on top of your salary for the privilege of employing you. Real income tax rates on employment are punishingly high in this country, especially for those making student loan payments (effectively a graduate tax), for whom the marginal rate (assuming a higher rate tax payer & including employers NI) is approx 63%. Even more if you’re paying off a post-grad loan as well.
We have become a high tax country with shitty public services.
Since when does the employers NI reduce your disposable income?
Since always. Its a direct tax on wages, which means firms pay lower wages as a result as they budget the tax as part of their costs.
Tax on wages are far too high in this country. Tax on unearned incomes are far too low.
Working for a living should never be taxed any higher than making a living through means other than working.
I appreciate your naïve assumption that employers wouldn't just trouser any tax savings. Employers pay people as little as they can get away with.
So why isn't everyone on minimum wage ?
Because the demand for workers forces employers to pay more.
Ultimately the demand for workers pushes up wage rates to the point where it no longer becomes profitable to employ them.
Employers NI merely reduces the amount that the employee gets not what the employer is willing to pay.
If someone is willing to work for £x, has there been a situation where the manager has said "You're doing great, we'll pay you more money for exactly the same job" Employers look at retention rates and what the competition is offering to decide what to pay their employees.
Unless you're the government.
All jobs when advertised should have the total remuneration including the pension contribution advertised. It would make public sector jobs look a lot more competitive
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
Depends on the role. Prior to a regrading exercise my salary was something like 75% of the amount I'd have gotten for an equivalent role in industry even with the pension. Since then it's pretty much what I'd expect. The government still lives in a world where STEM roles are graded the same as clerical.
And teaching assistants the same as cleaners.
I am not saying its always the same, just mentioning that often public sector roles are not as underpaid as they seem due to the hidden pension contributions from the employer
Not much bloody use when you can't pay the bills right now.
No but was always the case the public sector got lower pay now for the expectations of better pensions later. My father is typical of this he complains how low his pay was when he was working but his public sector pension is 20 odd k a year
A CS pension is a genuinely good benefit but it has been eroded over the years (still better than my shitty DC pensions though) and the combined benefits package has become seriously uncompetitive. You can't expect senior software engineers to work for £30k, even if there's another £8k of pension contribution thrown in there. It's unreasonable to try to get an IP lawyer worth their chops with 10 years experience for £40k. I was a hair from leaving until someone in BEIS was uncharacteristically intelligent and introduced new grades for in-demand roles.
BREAKING: Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron exchanged messages and held a video call with someone purporting to be former Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, but the interactions were later determined to be a hoax.
Comments
"Petteri Orpo
@PetteriOrpo
Deeply shocked by the assault on my colleague and friend Mette Frederiksen in Copenhagen. I strongly condemn any form of violence against democratically elected leaders in our free societies. My thoughts are with you, and I wish you strength during this difficult time."
https://x.com/PetteriOrpo/status/1799167854035566963
If you're using soccer in the public school framing (assocker from association football ) then the other is rugger
Soccer and rugger or association football and rugby football
The 1970’s are half a century ago
I know the phrase ‘to the manner born’
The reason wages are so poor in this country is because UK plc is woefully unproductive, for a variety of reasons including an under-skilled workforce, poor management, expensive costs & immense difficulties in expanding profitable companies due to a sclerotic planning system that puts the interests of retired busybodies over economic growth at every turn. Employers can’t pay more than an employee is worth to them (including all taxes and costs) or they’ll very shortly go out of business.
How many of you can name the deputy leader of Reform UK? I’ve never seen or heard of him before,
Edit: Wikipedia tells me he is the co-deputy leader.
private sector 30k+1.5k pension contribution vs
public sector 25k+ 5k pension contribution
especially when the private sector contribution is to a defined contribution scheme which means they will likely get very little and the public sector contribution ends up with an indexed linked average final salary
And for many others at my workplace - I've heard, and sometimes said myself, the phrase "X is being paid below what he is worth we need to bump him up a few thousand" many times.
Its what good employers often do to encourage their workers to develop themselves and as a precaution that they might look for alternative work.
I guess we all have our knowledge gaps - music is mine. So often on PB reports that X or Y has died and I have no idea who they are.
The original Reform candidate for Clacton is planning to stand against Nigel Farage as an independent
@harriet_symonds
reports
https://x.com/politicshome/status/1799176527239672211
Arguably my job is a vocation. You can get far better paid with my level of experience in science than I get as a lecturer at Uni.
If I did not, then HMRC would still demand their money and failing to pay it would not be an option.
Direct taxes affect prices, always have done, always will do. Suggesting Employers NI doesn't affect wages is as preposterous as saying fuel duty or alcohol duty doesn't affect fuel or alcohol prices.
I get that the tech is resolutely 1970s - that’s just the origin story - but why is the costume aesthetic Middle Ages ?
Question for PB Tories - how did that work for you last time?
The sad (for everyone) reality is that Farage made a far more rationale case than Mordaunt. For both how we got here and what we do about it.
This is E.L.E. looking large in the sky. Don't Look Up! Pretend the huge lump of rock isn't about to kill you. Instead rage rage rage against the awful traitors saying that massive lump of rock is about to kill you.
In my more impatient youth I used to to find it a bit irritating, but it's dated surprisingly well. Penelope Keith is much more likeable than she is in the Good Life, and it has a. slowness and intimate, gentle charm that has generally disappeared from British TV. I particularly liked a subtle and slow episode where she and Richard do very little other than argue and look for the most scenic views for a picnic by a stream. It now looks more like the 1950's than the 1980's, at the same time, which is also the effect of Yes Minister, and the country it describes has gone, for both good and ill.
Anyone who thought this lot had a chance of winning that tournament should take note of this limp surrender at home to a nation with a population approximately equal to that of Coventry.
Not a bloody prayer.
But they aren’t.
I don’t think England will win the Euros, but I don’t think this match bears any relation to how we will play in 9 days time.
Have I seen this movie already, or just imagined it?
https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/uk-top-40-singles-chart/
Every other participant criticised Labour. Daisy didn’t. Rayner hit back at Flynn, Farage and (briefly) the green and the Plaid man, but not at Daisy.
Daisy said how we need more community police officers. When Angela said the same thing she looked over to Daisy in acknowledgement of who said it first.
Very unlike the Lib-Lab relationship of 2010-2019.
I don’t know whether the direct grant was a block grant or per student, but it does suggest that the net cost per student was roughly unchanged. from 2011->2012.
One shot on target, losing a pre-tournament friendly to Iceland on the day he drops fan favourites isn't the best start.
Still, onwards and upwards.
Both my wife and I love #10 (Austin), that's a lot of fun and one I regularly play.
My wife likes #19 (Beautiful Things) so I listen to that a few times, I'm not too fussed with it.
The rest of the Top 20 I don't recognise. But then again a lot of the music I stream is new[ish] but may never have made the Top 20 in this country, music like other entertainment forms is a lot more diverse nowadays, we don't all listen to the same things.
Not that the football I just watched was any better.
I get your point. Something not right in the killer instinct. In the WC against Croatia they needed the second goal and didn’t get it. Against Italy they needed the second goal and … we know the rest.
I know To the Manor Born as it was still getting repeated in the 90s when I was a teen, but I wouldn't expect anyone younger than me to know it.
Things which matter from back then I know about, like the universal suffrage election in 1929 to which I was referring earlier.
And on this subject, I want to know how we can attract younger people to this site? One for reflection for after the election.
Night all.