Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
I’m not here to bat for the government. I want the election asap, and Inwant Starmer to have his go, but I also think PB is a better place without the nastiness we are getting from some posters.
I don't like nastiness either, but I am also reminded of some comments complaining about Tories being triumphant on 13 December 2019 - I think on the day of big elections wins supporters of the winning side are reasonably going to crow about it, and opponents and the neutral can probably forgive a bit of snideness and line walking commentary.
I'd actually like to hear from the Tories on what they are going to do to get out of this hole - but so far nothing is coming across.
So, what do the Tories need to do?
Get back to the centre, accept that Brexit was wrong, and wait for Labour to bankrupt the country?😀
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job. Rishi will lead the Tories into the next GE, there is no viable alternative in Parliament now and if he loses and takes the blame for defeat then the Conservatives have the time to decide what direction they want the party to go into in Opposition
Rishi clearly isn’t that intelligent
I disagree - he is on his subjects but he is terrible as a politician
He would be good in the IMF or similar
Yep. He's utterly hopeless as politics.
Absolute class Peter Principle or whatever its called - promoted way above his ability. Chief Sec to Treasury is his level.
If Sunak hadn't cancelled HS2 Brum to Manchester, Street would be mayor again tonight.
Rishi Sunak has completely and utterly pissed on him. I feel bad for him as by all accounts he was one of the few sane Tories left.
Maybe there's still an open parliamentary seat he could have a run at, but I doubt any competitive ones are left unless someone in a safe seat decides to pull out now.
Perhaps his other half might take the Hundreds for Hubby?
Solihull?
Lichfield. Incidentally I've just noticed someone has vandalised Fabricant's wiki page in the "Personal Info" section.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
INSIDE WESTMINSTER: How 'coiled mamba' Boris could come back to save the Tories from total annihilation - even though Rishi 'hasn't picked up the phone' | Daily Mail Online
There’ll be psychology textbooks written about that woman
How's about TV series featuring Mad Nad stand-in, solving Woke-inspired and/or trans-perpetrated murders from Wick to Wookey Hole? Think "Murder, She Wrote" taken to dark, weird extremes by an certifiable (in more ways than one) extremist.
You want caves, make it Smoo Cave to Wookey Hole ...
The fact Andy Street lost the West Midlands, a key swing region, by just over 1000 votes really is not the basis for a leadership challenge.
Far more significant is the fact that on NEV from the local elections Labour is not even heading for a clear majority let alone a landslide so there is plenty of opportunity for Rishi to squeeze the gap, especially by winning over voters who voted LD or Independent on Thursday.
The fact Reform failed to beat the Tories in Blackpool South also shows Rishi has the chance to squeeze their vote as well.
Hall, despite losing, also got a higher voteshare in London than Boris in 2019 and Houchen won Tees Valley, so it could certainly have been an even worse series of results for the Tories and PM than it was
They should send you out on the media round instead of your chairman.
I met our chairman a few weeks ago at a campaign event so I wouldn't dream of taking his job. Happy to provide him with some effective lines though!
Prospective Tory candidates might well be advised to practice online commentary with anonymous accounts, in order to usefully hone their skills in this modern digital world without leaving an obvious trail of embarrassing material as they learned the ropes. The party could then assess how well someone defended difficult decisions, how well they can pivot, whether they can judge when to concede a point and when to attack.
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job
Rishi worked very hard and was very studious, and nobody can take his academic achievements away from him. But he doesn't strike me as at all intelligent. He's not curious about anything. His views on things outside his immediate field of experience are sloppy inane cliches. His speeches are witless scripted lines - he isn't able to tailor his message or think on his feet. I can't imagine a long in-depth interview with Sunak - I couldn't watch such a thing, I'd be cringeing. If he is so much more intelligent than Mordaunt, where has his intelligence got his party? Where is his intelligence getting us a country?
Mordaunt speaks well in the Commons and interviews pretty well. It's interesting that you've called her hardworking - I got the sense she was pretty lazy. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. She's a roll of the dice. If she has the good sense to form a strong Government, I think she could front it quite well.
I can't remember which election it was. 2017? The PM refused to debate and put various patsies up in the debates. Amber Rudd was one and was quite good. Rishi Sunak was another - and was bloody awful.
I genuinely thought he had developed as a politician. He hasn't.
The problem is going to be Sir Ed's inadequate response to the Post Office stuff on his watch. He may be able to laugh about it, hur hur, but all those suicide guys not so much.
On that basis the Tories shouldn’t joke about anything ever again because their blooded hands are all over the Post Office debacle to this day. Including Kemi refusing payouts only a few months ago. But hey, Ed Davey…
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
deficit is to debt as inflation is to prices. If debt is still going up every year for 10 years you haven't dealt with the deficit.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
You don't think cutting all of the Police officers was a good idea do you?
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job. Rishi will lead the Tories into the next GE, there is no viable alternative in Parliament now and if he loses and takes the blame for defeat then the Conservatives have the time to decide what direction they want the party to go into in Opposition
Rishi clearly isn’t that intelligent
I disagree - he is on his subjects but he is terrible as a politician
He would be good in the IMF or similar
I don't think so. The third world has suffered enough.
I have absolutely no doubt in mind whatsoever that if Labour had run the economy from 2010 onwards we'd not have any of the societal problems we have today.
Any of them? Really? You think it’s ALL down to the Tories?
It looks like the requirement for photo ID didn't save the Tory bacon.
I hope there is a proper analysis of who was turned away or otherwise prevented.
Time to limit it to over sixty five bus pass?
Elvis bus pass?
The strange thing is neither my wife or I have been on a bus in decades,
As well as transporting me from a to b they’re great for listening to what people think about things. I use trains and buses all the time. Don’t own a car, which is the ultimate cocooned way of travelling.
I’ve never really believed tory MPs would try and oust Rishi. For the first time tonight, I’m not so sure. It’s not just the very poor results, it’s the cack-handed way the expectations were managed. It suggests that the No 10 machine hasn’t got a clue.
Would someone like Penny shore things up? Probably but I don’t think the Party is in the mood to appoint a moderate (yet).
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job. Rishi will lead the Tories into the next GE, there is no viable alternative in Parliament now and if he loses and takes the blame for defeat then the Conservatives have the time to decide what direction they want the party to go into in Opposition
Rishi clearly isn’t that intelligent
I disagree - he is on his subjects but he is terrible as a politician
He would be good in the IMF or similar
Lots of really intelligent people have little common sense and absolutely no common touch.
Thinking of people like David "two brains" Willets and Oliver bloody Letwin...
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
I think there was an argument to cut public spending but the Tories not only didn't actually cut spending, they raised it whilst also destroying society and things we actually need to work.
All of the biggest issues can be traced back to those cuts.
NHS backlog Border chaos Homelessness Crime Etc
Sure Start was the biggest one of all. Closed because it was a successful Labour policy. We are only now beginning to see the results.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
I’m not here to bat for the government. I want the election asap, and Inwant Starmer to have his go, but I also think PB is a better place without the nastiness we are getting from some posters.
I don't like nastiness either, but I am also reminded of some comments complaining about Tories being triumphant on 13 December 2019 - I think on the day of big elections wins supporters of the winning side are reasonably going to crow about it, and opponents and the neutral can probably forgive a bit of snideness and line walking commentary.
I'd actually like to hear from the Tories on what they are going to do to get out of this hole - but so far nothing is coming across.
So, what do the Tories need to do?
Get back to the centre, accept that Brexit was wrong, and wait for Labour to bankrupt the country?😀
And for goodness sake drop all this culture war guff. It just makes them look old, decrepit, and out of touch.
I can't remember which election it was. 2017? The PM refused to debate and put various patsies up in the debates. Amber Rudd was one and was quite good. Rishi Sunak was another - and was bloody awful.
I genuinely thought he had developed as a politician. He hasn't.
I think it was Phillip who left this place, who tipped Sunak as a potential amazing PM after the debates in 2019. He got it half right I suppose.
He was obviously dreadful as a politician from the beginning of COVID - when I said so - despite others here saying he was the future of the Tory Party. Of course they also said Johnson would govern for a decade so there's that too.
W Mids - yet another mayor vote where LibDems do terribly and are behind Greens.
I think it’s a brand thing, which is interesting. Lib Dems have a solid brand in local government. In Westminster they’re either in contention in certain areas or wholly irrelevant. Mayors and PCCs, for whatever reason, just not seen as in scope.
A bit like quiche Lorraine: you enjoy eating it for lunch. You might at a push consider it at dinner. But you would never countenance it at breakfast despite it sharing most ingredients with a fry up.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
deficit is to debt as inflation is to prices. If debt is still going up every year for 10 years you haven't dealt with the deficit.
It was a whopping deficit and the gap was being closed. Close it sooner by savage cuts? That’s the Canadian version of austerity, I.e. real austerity, not the version of increased spending the 2010 government did.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Exactly. Austerity failed in its stated objective of getting the deficit down. None of our peer countries went down this route and none of them seriously damaged civic services for nothing, in the same way.
I have absolutely no doubt in mind whatsoever that if Labour had run the economy from 2010 onwards we'd not have any of the societal problems we have today.
Any of them? Really? You think it’s ALL down to the Tories?
Well, they've been in government the entire time so I think they are mostly to blame yes. You can make an argument post COVID they aren't entirely to blame but up until then, sure why not?
Or do you think Labour weren't totally to blame for the GFC? It didn't stop the Tories claiming Labour caused it.
The problem is going to be Sir Ed's inadequate response to the Post Office stuff on his watch. He may be able to laugh about it, hur hur, but all those suicide guys not so much.
On that basis the Tories shouldn’t joke about anything ever again because their blooded hands are all over the Post Office debacle to this day. Including Kemi refusing payouts only a few months ago. But hey, Ed Davey…
Sure but everyone expects Tories to be shits. Non shitness is sort the LD USP.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
deficit is to debt as inflation is to prices. If debt is still going up every year for 10 years you haven't dealt with the deficit.
It was a whopping deficit and the gap was being closed. Close it sooner by savage cuts? That’s the Canadian version of austerity, I.e. real austerity, not the version of increased spending the 2010 government did.
Actually Osborne tried proper austerity for a year. It destroyed the 2% growth he was given by "useless" Brown and we've never really recovered. Only when they adopted more of Labour's plans did the economy start to grow a bit again.
Sadly then they'd already destroyed the Police, border force, NHS, local government and put into place all of the disasters to come.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
You don't think cutting all of the Police officers was a good idea do you?
I don't know what the 'right' number of officers would be, or how well how crime rates actually coincide with those numbers, and the level of impact other factors (such as the failures arising from cuts in Justice or legislative or administrative messing about) have had. And given increasing the number of officers back has not led to swift improvements in some forces, such as my own local one, I don't think it certain cutting them to some degree was the sole or necessarily main factor behind their failure or success, nor just throwing money at them a solution.
In short, I think it was not inherently a good or bad idea.
The expresserati are fuming. A few claims of vote tampering and betrayal of the British people. I have to admit that I am nervous about the far right after the GE. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a Capitol Hill style event. Without their guys in office to moderate them the safety is going to come off that crowd.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
I'm reading "Cameron at 10", so I'll give you Libya. I'd also say the expansion in smaller train stations and the mayoralities. The PCCs were also a good idea IMO, although I think nobody else likes them.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
The OBR.
Halving unemployment, I guess. But that’s no longer considered a big issue.
I think the Tories have done well on education reform (in England), pensions freedoms, welfare reform, reducing unemployment, deficit reduction and delivering Brexit. I also think they've begun to check the culture wars in the last few years.
But, there are plenty of disappointments on top.
Plus cutting national insurance.
And enriching oldies - not something I cheer but plenty do.
The banks are also hopefully less likely to go bust.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
You don't think cutting all of the Police officers was a good idea do you?
I don't know what the 'right' number of officers would be, or how well how crime rates actually coincide with those numbers, and the level of impact other factors (such as the failures arising from cuts in Justice or legislative or administrative messing about) have had. And given increasing the number of officers back has not led to swift improvements in some forces, such as my own local one, I don't think it certain cutting them to some degree was the sole or necessarily main factor behind their failure or success, nor just throwing money at them a solution.
In short, I think it was not inherently a good or bad idea.
I think it's quite evident cutting the officers has increased crime and broken down social cohesion. And the experience we've lost in the force is destroyed even if we hire replacements.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
Both. If you fix the deficit you ultimately fix the debt. The Austerity programme did neither.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
I would just comment how the left airbrush out the serious economic damage that closing the country down for 2 years with covid ( and remember Sturgeon, Drakeford and Starmer wanted it for longer) caused and the oil shocks from the war in Ukraine
It is also not discussed but the difficulties we now face are being faced by governments across the west for the same reasons and why incumbent governments are struggling and the rise of the right in Europe is happening
W Mids - yet another mayor vote where LibDems do terribly and are behind Greens.
I think it’s a brand thing, which is interesting. Lib Dems have a solid brand in local government. In Westminster they’re either in contention in certain areas or wholly irrelevant. Mayors and PCCs, for whatever reason, just not seen as in scope.
A bit like quiche Lorraine: you enjoy eating it for lunch. You might at a push consider it at dinner. But you would never countenance it at breakfast despite it sharing most ingredients with a fry up.
What's interesting is that back in the day - when they were Liberals - they had such big characters who would have cut through and become mayors or at least had a v good run.
Grimmond Thorpe (yes I know about later in his career etc, but in his hey day) Freud Penhaligon Steel
Maybe Rayner will get charged and Labour might suffer their own dramas. So even though I’m enjoying seeing the Tories in melt down I’m well aware that things can and do often change very quickly !
W Mids - yet another mayor vote where LibDems do terribly and are behind Greens.
When the LDs are strong they can have some incredible results. When they are weak they collapse to abject nothingness. I find it surprising, their status as essentially the main third party of the UK should, to my mind, mean a lower floor even in weaker areas.
As it is they are nowhere in Wales, regionally limited in Scotland, and still absent from much of England. As a multiple time LD voter it surprises me how much many people don't even consider them at all.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
I’m not here to bat for the government. I want the election asap, and Inwant Starmer to have his go, but I also think PB is a better place without the nastiness we are getting from some posters.
How big is the deficit today?
How was austerity "working"? It literally failed on its own terms.
We haven't had austerity.
We've had cuts in some areas and profligacy in some others.
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job. Rishi will lead the Tories into the next GE, there is no viable alternative in Parliament now and if he loses and takes the blame for defeat then the Conservatives have the time to decide what direction they want the party to go into in Opposition
Rishi clearly isn’t that intelligent
I disagree - he is on his subjects but he is terrible as a politician
He would be good in the IMF or similar
He'd be terrible at the IMF. He doesn't have the specific skills required to do a technical role and he lacks the political nous needed for a leadership position there. His natural mileau is a consultancy role or a financial position at a tech firm. I think he made a mistake going into politics, to be honest. I've never met him but I know smart people in finance who met him before he was PM and were very impressed by his fluency and intelligence. I suspect this was because he spoke their language, and the skills required to schmooze the 0.01% are not the ones that work in mass market politics. If I were a better person I'd feel bad for him.
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
Both. If you fix the deficit you ultimately fix the debt. The Austerity programme did neither.
It didn't fix it, but it slowed down the accumulation of debt. The logic of "the truck got closer to the cliff edge after we slammed on the brakes, therefore braking doesn't work" is pretty stupid.
I have absolutely no doubt in mind whatsoever that if Labour had run the economy from 2010 onwards we'd not have any of the societal problems we have today.
Any of them? Really? You think it’s ALL down to the Tories?
Well, they've been in government the entire time so I think they are mostly to blame yes. You can make an argument post COVID they aren't entirely to blame but up until then, sure why not?
Or do you think Labour weren't totally to blame for the GFC? It didn't stop the Tories claiming Labour caused it.
I dont think Labour was to blame for the GFC. I do blame Brown for his hubris and for breaking his own spending rules. I also blame him for the vast expansion of PPI, many contracts of which are still costing vastly over the odds. I don’t think any government is entirely responsible for all of societies problems - I think that’s rather naive. Parents have a huge role in raising the next generation. It’s not down to the government.
The expresserati are fuming. A few claims of vote tampering and betrayal of the British people. I have to admit that I am nervous about the far right after the GE. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a Capitol Hill style event. Without their guys in office to moderate them the safety is going to come off that crowd.
You seriously think people would be arsed to riot on behalf of Rishi Sunak? 😂
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
UK's national debt in 2009/10 was £1.08t. In 2018/19, the last full year before Covid it was £1.82t. Austerity was working at being the excuse for the Tories to starve public services but let's not pretend it was dealing with the deficit.
Please, deficit is not the same as the debt. We are better than this on PB.
deficit is to debt as inflation is to prices. If debt is still going up every year for 10 years you haven't dealt with the deficit.
It was a whopping deficit and the gap was being closed. Close it sooner by savage cuts? That’s the Canadian version of austerity, I.e. real austerity, not the version of increased spending the 2010 government did.
The deficit in 2010 was whopping but mostly caused by one off actions like the purchase of HBOS which a) wasn't going to be repeated in following years and b) was fully recouped over a number of years by selling it back.
Harry Cole is an absolute fucking moron. That has been proved over and over today.
Harry Cole writes what's going to make his readership, editor and proprietor happy, it makes him appear to be a moron but doesn't mean he is one.
But he literally wrote Susan Hall was going to win the election on nothing other than hearsay. Isn't he supposed to be a professional?
He's a journalist. A profession whose function is to provide clicks and readership, with truth a long way behind.
There really needs to be a reframing of what most media figures are, which is commentators, versus journalists who actually gather and present information. Particularly but not solely with the highly partisan ones.
Sure, some commentators will do a bit of journalism from time to time, but it won't be the bulk of their job.
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
I've not read the whole thread but I'm sorry if some of the comments felt nasty. The exchange between Richard Parker and Andy Street in which each thanked the other is how politics should be. It's fine to have passionate opinions (I'm probably to the left of most people here) but that doesn't mean people who disagree aren't entitled to be treated with respect as well.
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
Sorry dude, but this "I'm very sad because bile is directed at the tories" line feels very pathetic. The Tories have made a bloody mess over the last five years in the most arrogant, inconsiderate way possible. The reason Street gets so much kudos is he isn't that person. He's what the tory party could be if they weren't full of people who are corrupt, incompetent, stupid or borderline evil. That's why they cop the sharp edge of the tongue. Just like Labour did under Corbyn. The lesson is simple: be better.
I’m not trying to defend the Tories, far from it. It’s just the tone from some posters is rather nasty.
It’s easy and in my view rather lazy the blame the incumbent government during a once in a century pandemic and a major European war with resulting surgedvinflation for all the ills of the country. Starmer and Labour will not find many easy answers out there. I wish that there were.
I'm sorry, what?
Are you saying we shouldn't blame the Tories for partying through lockdown - illegally - against their own advice?
I think everyone agrees they handled the vaccine rollout well and the pandemic itself the UK was middling but not terrible.
But what has anything since then got to do with it?
Boris Johnson chose to lie - nothing to do with COVID The Tories chose to defend Johnson's lies - nothing to do with COVID They chose to elect Liz Truss - nothing to do with COVID Rishi Sunak chose to cancel HS2 - nothing to do with COVID Rishi Sunak chose to pursue an electoral strategy based on one London seat - nothing to do with COVID
I think the Tories have been dealt a bad hand - and played it incredibly badly. You can't honestly say at this point Labour would have done any of those things with a straight face.
Covid was a huge hit financially, hit schooling with the potential effects lasting a decade, hit healthcare hugely. If you can see the effects of covid, then you need to look a bit harder.
Johnson and the Conservative Party were held aloft as the nation's COVID saviours. They claimed to have saved the economy through the furlough scheme and trumpeted their part in developing and distributing vaccines. They were the nation's heroes.
However unbeknownst to us they were milking a PPE procurement crisis by fast tracking their friends and relations to multi million pounds profits from cheap PPE purchased, and then sold at an astronomical profit, from AliExpress. And to celebrate whilst we were peering out from under the bedsheets in fear as 160,000 Britons died in agony, they were pissing it up at Downing Street.
Would Labour have done the same. I dunno, but we have the smoking gun from the Tories
He'd be terrible at the IMF. He doesn't have the specific skills required to do a technical role and he lacks the political nous needed for a leadership position there. His natural mileau is a consultancy role or a financial position at a tech firm. I think he made a mistake going into politics, to be honest. I've never met him but I know smart people in finance who met him before he was PM and were very impressed by his fluency and intelligence. I suspect this was because he spoke their language, and the skills required to schmooze the 0.01% are not the ones that work in mass market politics. If I were a better person I'd feel bad for him.
From friends of friends who worked in the finance world, he's very well thought of in those circles. Actually his public record speaks for itself. I don't doubt he's intelligent.
But it doesn't mean he's a good PM.
Gordon Brown was/is incredibly intelligent, most people don't think he was a good PM at all.
Every day Richi continues to squat in No 10, the polling will get worse for him
Can it get worse
It can. There will be plenty of scope for bad stories to continue in the next 6 months. But Rishi is an optimist and his internal opponents too demoralised about the likely outcomes to really do anything.
Lets assume the Tories move for Sunak. Lets further assume that having sent the likes of Richard Holden and Andrew Mitchell into bat that Sunak ends up in the Yousless position.
Shall we line up the runners and riders for the Tory salvation gig? Priti Patel - mad Suella Braverman - mad Penny Mordaunt - ineffective Rehman Chisti - its Chisti time Boris Johnson - because hopium Liz Truss
Anyone else?
This is why they wont in the end move.
It is all piss and wind or whatever the expression de jour is.
Only Johnson makes sense as a 'what the fuck, nothing to lose here and he might just pull something off' candidate.
I sort of disagree. I think Mordaunt could give them a bump in polls if she held an election quickly after becoming leader, before being found out.
At most she might get a brief bounce but she would soon be found out as over promoted as PM, she is mid rank Cabinet material level at most, not even great Office of State level yet alone PM.
Mordaunt is perfectly decent and hardworking but is much less intelligent than Rishi and doesn't have the statute or presence needed for the top job. Rishi will lead the Tories into the next GE, there is no viable alternative in Parliament now and if he loses and takes the blame for defeat then the Conservatives have the time to decide what direction they want the party to go into in Opposition
Rishi clearly isn’t that intelligent
I disagree - he is on his subjects but he is terrible as a politician
He would be good in the IMF or similar
He'd be terrible at the IMF. He doesn't have the specific skills required to do a technical role and he lacks the political nous needed for a leadership position there. His natural mileau is a consultancy role or a financial position at a tech firm. I think he made a mistake going into politics, to be honest. I've never met him but I know smart people in finance who met him before he was PM and were very impressed by his fluency and intelligence. I suspect this was because he spoke their language, and the skills required to schmooze the 0.01% are not the ones that work in mass market politics. If I were a better person I'd feel bad for him.
He became prime minister... you can hardly say it was a mistake to go into politics! He's not a particularly good prime minister, but history will surely remember him as better than Truss or Johnson and possibly Theresa May as well.
I don't think HS2 was salvageable given the billions that the Bank of England's taxpayer-backed quantative tightening programme is taking out of the Government's budget. Note that Labour hasn't said it will reinstate it.
Regarding the economy more generally, a very simple summary of the economy at the moment is of a seesaw. The more that the Government succeeds in growing the economy and putting more money into peoples' pockets, the more that the Bank of England will remove it in the cause of fighting inflation. They will do this by raising interest rates and selling government bonds, which will impoverish both the public, and the Government.
That results in an uncomfortable stalemate. There's only one way off the seesaw that I can see, which is to increase supply. Increasing the supply of energy and food drives prices down, that drives inflation down, whilst growing the economy.
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
I've not read the whole thread but I'm sorry if some of the comments felt nasty. The exchange between Richard Parker and Andy Street in which each thanked the other is how politics should be. It's fine to have passionate opinions (I'm probably to the left of most people here) but that doesn't mean people who disagree aren't entitled to be treated with respect as well.
Yes it was brilliant to see the civility and generosity of that exchange. The way we used to do politics in this country and how we should again.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
I’m not here to bat for the government. I want the election asap, and Inwant Starmer to have his go, but I also think PB is a better place without the nastiness we are getting from some posters.
I don't like nastiness either, but I am also reminded of some comments complaining about Tories being triumphant on 13 December 2019 - I think on the day of big elections wins supporters of the winning side are reasonably going to crow about it, and opponents and the neutral can probably forgive a bit of snideness and line walking commentary.
I'd actually like to hear from the Tories on what they are going to do to get out of this hole - but so far nothing is coming across.
So, what do the Tories need to do?
You know the old Brecht joke about the East German government dissolving the electorate and choosing a new one?
The Conservatives can't do that for the country, but somehow they need to do it for the party. Because party memberships tend to please themselves, which is why all this happens. (Hall is archetypal outer London Conservative. @Leon was on to something with "Make London Fun Again." But that requires a belief in the desirability both London and fun.)
And whilst Labour had enough vitality left to grow back when Corbyn was binned, I'm not as confident that will be the case after the coming defeat for the Conservatives.
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
Why has Frost any leverage or heft in the tory party? It is beyond me. Never elected to a position in his life. He knows nothing about running for office.
The expresserati are fuming. A few claims of vote tampering and betrayal of the British people. I have to admit that I am nervous about the far right after the GE. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a Capitol Hill style event. Without their guys in office to moderate them the safety is going to come off that crowd.
You seriously think people would be arsed to riot on behalf of Rishi Sunak? 😂
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
Why has Frost any leverage or heft in the tory party? It is beyond me. Never elected to a position in his life. He knows nothing about running for office.
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
I've not read the whole thread but I'm sorry if some of the comments felt nasty. The exchange between Richard Parker and Andy Street in which each thanked the other is how politics should be. It's fine to have passionate opinions (I'm probably to the left of most people here) but that doesn't mean people who disagree aren't entitled to be treated with respect as well.
Well said @NickPalmer and many should learn that most people want passionate opinions but respect for other views
The fact is that all of the mayors of the great urban centres - London, West Mids, Manchester, West Yorks - are now all held by Labour. That means something.
I don't think HS2 was salvageable given the billions that the Bank of England's taxpayer-backed quantative tightening programme is taking out of the Government's budget. Note that Labour hasn't said it will reinstate it.
Regarding the economy more generally, a very simple summary of the economy at the moment is of a seesaw. The more that the Government succeeds in growing the economy and putting more money into peoples' pockets, the more that the Bank of England will remove it in the cause of fighting inflation. They will do this by raising interest rates and selling government bonds, which will impoverish both the public, and the Government.
That results in an uncomfortable stalemate. There's only one way off the seesaw that I can see, which is to increase supply. Increasing the supply of energy and food drives prices down, that drives inflation down, whilst growing the economy.
Anyone know another way?
Trains are an obsession among male middle class nerds.
PB is filled with male middle class nerds.
As to the BoE and reversing QE - its probably a good idea to 'reload the magazine' for when it is needed again.
Whether they're doing it at the right pace and to the right amount I've no idea.
I would say it was setting a good base to build from, and we have made many poor decisions since.
Interestingly Ed Miliband implicitly agreed with the financial policies by criticising the Coalition for not meeting its deficit elimination goal.
You could have achieved what they did without destroying the Police, the border force and NHS.
I don't think the policies of the coalition have destroyed the Police or the NHS, the issues they face go well beyond that. Justice was a major error for sure, and Local Government was an easy cut that went too far and has been messed about with gimmicks from those days.
You don't think cutting all of the Police officers was a good idea do you?
I don't know what the 'right' number of officers would be, or how well how crime rates actually coincide with those numbers, and the level of impact other factors (such as the failures arising from cuts in Justice or legislative or administrative messing about) have had. And given increasing the number of officers back has not led to swift improvements in some forces, such as my own local one, I don't think it certain cutting them to some degree was the sole or necessarily main factor behind their failure or success, nor just throwing money at them a solution.
In short, I think it was not inherently a good or bad idea.
I think it's quite evident cutting the officers has increased crime and broken down social cohesion. And the experience we've lost in the force is destroyed even if we hire replacements.
That was an INCREDIBLY short-sighted decision.
My Dad is an ex policeman (retired 28 years ago as an acting superintendent). He always believed that crime goes up and down with economy, and I think he has a point. I don’t think it is evident that cutting officers increased crime. Where is the proof? You need to beware of spurious correlation. What percentage of the police force is 10,000 officers? Around 170,000 nationally in the ranks, so 10,000 is about 6% fewer. Does that really constitute ‘destrying the police’ and losing all the experience?
Sam Freedman @Samfr · 10m You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
The fact is that all of the mayors of the great urban centres - London, West Mids, Manchester, West Yorks - are now all held by Labour. That means something.
Are you insinuating that Middlesbrough isn't a great urban centre?
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
Why has Frost any leverage or heft in the tory party? It is beyond me. Never elected to a position in his life. He knows nothing about running for office.
I'm genuinely stumped how much attention he used to get. He had a position which deservedly got some media attention, but he has never risen any higher than a junior minister and I can't see anything electrifying about him, he doesn't have the pull of say, Farage. What is it people in the party found so compelling?
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
I'm reading "Cameron at 10", so I'll give you Libya. I'd also say the expansion in smaller train stations and the mayoralities. The PCCs were also a good idea IMO, although I think nobody else likes them.
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
Why has Frost any leverage or heft in the tory party? It is beyond me. Never elected to a position in his life. He knows nothing about running for office.
I'm genuinely stumped how much attention he used to get. He had a position which deservedly got some media attention, but he has never risen any higher than a junior minister and I can't see anything electrifying about him, he doesn't have the pull of say, Farage. What is it people in the party found so compelling?
Sam Freedman @Samfr · 10m You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
Ah, they're going to kick the Tory Lords out then.
The expresserati are fuming. A few claims of vote tampering and betrayal of the British people. I have to admit that I am nervous about the far right after the GE. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a Capitol Hill style event. Without their guys in office to moderate them the safety is going to come off that crowd.
You seriously think people would be arsed to riot on behalf of Rishi Sunak? 😂
W Mids - yet another mayor vote where LibDems do terribly and are behind Greens.
I think it’s a brand thing, which is interesting. Lib Dems have a solid brand in local government. In Westminster they’re either in contention in certain areas or wholly irrelevant. Mayors and PCCs, for whatever reason, just not seen as in scope.
A bit like quiche Lorraine: you enjoy eating it for lunch. You might at a push consider it at dinner. But you would never countenance it at breakfast despite it sharing most ingredients with a fry up.
A lot of LD councillors also do actually do quite a good job of being a councillor, which helps.
Sam Freedman @Samfr · 10m You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
Ooh, ooh, how's this for a plan - Cutting red tape? I bet that's not been tried yet.
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
Why has Frost any leverage or heft in the tory party? It is beyond me. Never elected to a position in his life. He knows nothing about running for office.
'He told a Scottish Parliament committee in 2015 that the “single market and single trade policy” were major benefits of EU membership.
“When we get to the referendum, I hope it is a real debate about everything that Europe offers. You mentioned quite a few of those things: I would add the single market and single trade policy to that,” he told the devolved legislature at the time.
“Although estimates vary about how much wealth the single market generates for the UK, since we joined, it’s probably in the order of five, six, seven, eight per cent uplift to GDP.
“For somebody on an average salary that’s about £1,500 a year. Most people think that that’s worth having. [...]'
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
I'm reading "Cameron at 10", so I'll give you Libya. I'd also say the expansion in smaller train stations and the mayoralities. The PCCs were also a good idea IMO, although I think nobody else likes them.
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
I've not read the whole thread but I'm sorry if some of the comments felt nasty. The exchange between Richard Parker and Andy Street in which each thanked the other is how politics should be. It's fine to have passionate opinions (I'm probably to the left of most people here) but that doesn't mean people who disagree aren't entitled to be treated with respect as well.
Yes it was brilliant to see the civility and generosity of that exchange. The way we used to do politics in this country and how we should again.
Sam Freedman @Samfr · 10m You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
Ooh, ooh, how's this for a plan - Cutting red tape? I bet that's not been tried yet.
Johnson was an arse and I’m glad he’s gone and is not coming back. But the public finance constrain what governments can do. How many schools you can rebuild, how many doctors you can pay etc. This version of the Tories are getting most things wrong. I think cancelling HS2 was wrong, Inthink Rwanda is wrong. I’ll be voting for labour at the GE. But I think it’s right to appreciate the challenges thrown at the government since 2019.
But you didn't respond to any of the points I made, that have nothing to do with the finances.
You're reminding me of myself when Corbyn was about to lose.
Can you point to a single thing the Tories have actually done since 2010? A single positive change they've actually made?
I'll name one: gay marriage.
Apart from that, can you really agree that they've really done anything?
Ukraine. Covid vaccines. Inherited a huge deficit in 2010 and in coalition with the Lib Dems choose a policy called austerity (that really wasn’t) that was gradually working until Covid. It may not have been the right policy - a nations finances are not like personal finances after all. But I don’t think it was that badly done. Others will disagree.
I’m not here to bat for the government. I want the election asap, and Inwant Starmer to have his go, but I also think PB is a better place without the nastiness we are getting from some posters.
I don't like nastiness either, but I am also reminded of some comments complaining about Tories being triumphant on 13 December 2019 - I think on the day of big elections wins supporters of the winning side are reasonably going to crow about it, and opponents and the neutral can probably forgive a bit of snideness and line walking commentary.
I'd actually like to hear from the Tories on what they are going to do to get out of this hole - but so far nothing is coming across.
So, what do the Tories need to do?
Get back to the centre, accept that Brexit was wrong, and wait for Labour to bankrupt the country?😀
I think you've already beaten them to the bankrupting the country part!
The fact is that all of the mayors of the great urban centres - London, West Mids, Manchester, West Yorks - are now all held by Labour. That means something.
They need a catchy name that captures this image...
I don't think HS2 was salvageable given the billions that the Bank of England's taxpayer-backed quantative tightening programme is taking out of the Government's budget. Note that Labour hasn't said it will reinstate it.
Regarding the economy more generally, a very simple summary of the economy at the moment is of a seesaw. The more that the Government succeeds in growing the economy and putting more money into peoples' pockets, the more that the Bank of England will remove it in the cause of fighting inflation. They will do this by raising interest rates and selling government bonds, which will impoverish both the public, and the Government.
That results in an uncomfortable stalemate. There's only one way off the seesaw that I can see, which is to increase supply. Increasing the supply of energy and food drives prices down, that drives inflation down, whilst growing the economy.
Anyone know another way?
PB is filled with male middle class nerds.
Sure, but some of us are lower middle class nerds at least.
Based on the London Mayor and Assembly elections I think the Tories should hold at minimum 13 of their London seats - everything from Finchley up and maybe a couple more
Andy Street is a decent guy. That's how you give a losing speech.
He should join Labour.
This place tonight is rather nasty. It’s perfectly possible to be a conservative and be a decent guy. Being conservative is a view of how the world works, and how you think the country should be run. Being labour has different views on that. Their is an astonishingly nasty streak of some posters on here tonight (not talking about you, horse). The bile is coming from the left. It’s time for Labour to have their go at running the country. But to here some, a party that was in tatters a few short years ago are set for a decade of power, all before a single vote in the GE has been cast. Hubris, I name thee Heathener.
Sorry dude, but this "I'm very sad because bile is directed at the tories" line feels very pathetic. The Tories have made a bloody mess over the last five years in the most arrogant, inconsiderate way possible. The reason Street gets so much kudos is he isn't that person. He's what the tory party could be if they weren't full of people who are corrupt, incompetent, stupid or borderline evil. That's why they cop the sharp edge of the tongue. Just like Labour did under Corbyn. The lesson is simple: be better.
I’m not trying to defend the Tories, far from it. It’s just the tone from some posters is rather nasty.
It’s easy and in my view rather lazy the blame the incumbent government during a once in a century pandemic and a major European war with resulting surgedvinflation for all the ills of the country. Starmer and Labour will not find many easy answers out there. I wish that there were.
I'm sorry, what?
Are you saying we shouldn't blame the Tories for partying through lockdown - illegally - against their own advice?
I think everyone agrees they handled the vaccine rollout well and the pandemic itself the UK was middling but not terrible.
But what has anything since then got to do with it?
Boris Johnson chose to lie - nothing to do with COVID The Tories chose to defend Johnson's lies - nothing to do with COVID They chose to elect Liz Truss - nothing to do with COVID Rishi Sunak chose to cancel HS2 - nothing to do with COVID Rishi Sunak chose to pursue an electoral strategy based on one London seat - nothing to do with COVID
I think the Tories have been dealt a bad hand - and played it incredibly badly. You can't honestly say at this point Labour would have done any of those things with a straight face.
Covid was a huge hit financially, hit schooling with the potential effects lasting a decade, hit healthcare hugely. If you can see the effects of covid, then you need to look a bit harder.
Johnson and the Conservative Party were held aloft as the nation's COVID saviours. They claimed to have saved the economy through the furlough scheme and trumpeted their part in developing and distributing vaccines. They were the nation's heroes.
However unbeknownst to us they were milking a PPE procurement crisis by fast tracking their friends and relations to multi million pounds profits from cheap PPE purchased, and then sold at an astronomical profit, from AliExpress. And to celebrate whilst we were peering out from under the bedsheets in fear as 160,000 Britons died in agony, they were pissing it up at Downing Street.
Would Labour have done the same. I dunno, but we have the smoking gun from the Tories
Labour might well have pissed away more on worthless PPE but I don't think the personal sleaze would have been as great.
Labour would have had longer and harder lockdowns, with all the damage they caused, but they wouldn't have flouted their own restrictions as stupidly.
Sam Freedman @Samfr · 10m You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
They could make a start by eliminating the vast amount of their own employees paid so poorly that they have to rely on universal credit.
Comments
Absolute class Peter Principle or whatever its called - promoted way above his ability. Chief Sec to Treasury is his level.
The question for Sunak is whether he can pull that up into the very low 30s by polling day, because it'll make a hell of a lot of difference to seats.
I genuinely thought he had developed as a politician. He hasn't.
That's Michael Fabricant.
Quite something to recall that autumn relaunch
Canned hs2 p2 against wishes of Andy Street, Conservative with the biggest personal mandate in the UK.
To replace with promised funding for local projects across English council areas…
- WM looks lost
- half council seats lost
I’ve never really believed tory MPs would try and oust Rishi. For the first time tonight, I’m not so sure. It’s not just the very poor results, it’s the cack-handed way the expectations were managed. It suggests that the No 10 machine hasn’t got a clue.
Would someone like Penny shore things up? Probably but I don’t think the Party is in the mood to appoint a moderate (yet).
Thinking of people like David "two brains" Willets and Oliver bloody Letwin...
Closed because it was a successful Labour policy.
We are only now beginning to see the results.
He was obviously dreadful as a politician from the beginning of COVID - when I said so - despite others here saying he was the future of the Tory Party. Of course they also said Johnson would govern for a decade so there's that too.
A bit like quiche Lorraine: you enjoy eating it for lunch. You might at a push consider it at dinner. But you would never countenance it at breakfast despite it sharing most ingredients with a fry up.
Or do you think Labour weren't totally to blame for the GFC? It didn't stop the Tories claiming Labour caused it.
Sadly then they'd already destroyed the Police, border force, NHS, local government and put into place all of the disasters to come.
In short, I think it was not inherently a good or bad idea.
I do wish we could get on and have this General Election.
And enriching oldies - not something I cheer but plenty do.
The banks are also hopefully less likely to go bust.
That was an INCREDIBLY short-sighted decision.
It is also not discussed but the difficulties we now face are being faced by governments across the west for the same reasons and why incumbent governments are struggling and the rise of the right in Europe is happening
Grimmond
Thorpe (yes I know about later in his career etc, but in his hey day)
Freud
Penhaligon
Steel
As it is they are nowhere in Wales, regionally limited in Scotland, and still absent from much of England. As a multiple time LD voter it surprises me how much many people don't even consider them at all.
We've had cuts in some areas and profligacy in some others.
I've never met him but I know smart people in finance who met him before he was PM and were very impressed by his fluency and intelligence. I suspect this was because he spoke their language, and the skills required to schmooze the 0.01% are not the ones that work in mass market politics.
If I were a better person I'd feel bad for him.
I don’t think any government is entirely responsible for all of societies problems - I think that’s rather naive. Parents have a huge role in raising the next generation. It’s not down to the government.
@DavidGHFrost
·
Jul 19, 2023
Congratulations to @Councillorsuzie on her selection as @Conservatives candidate for London Mayor.
Sadiq Khan may not realise it yet but he has a fight on his hands next year.
So he managed to destroy society and local government whilst increasing spending. A genius.
Sure, some commentators will do a bit of journalism from time to time, but it won't be the bulk of their job.
However unbeknownst to us they were milking a PPE procurement crisis by fast tracking their friends and relations to multi million pounds profits from cheap PPE purchased, and then sold at an astronomical profit, from AliExpress. And to celebrate whilst we were peering out from under the bedsheets in fear as 160,000 Britons died in agony, they were pissing it up at Downing Street.
Would Labour have done the same. I dunno, but we have the smoking gun from the Tories
But it doesn't mean he's a good PM.
Gordon Brown was/is incredibly intelligent, most people don't think he was a good PM at all.
Regarding the economy more generally, a very simple summary of the economy at the moment is of a seesaw. The more that the Government succeeds in growing the economy and putting more money into peoples' pockets, the more that the Bank of England will remove it in the cause of fighting inflation. They will do this by raising interest rates and selling government bonds, which will impoverish both the public, and the Government.
That results in an uncomfortable stalemate. There's only one way off the seesaw that I can see, which is to increase supply. Increasing the supply of energy and food drives prices down, that drives inflation down, whilst growing the economy.
Anyone know another way?
The Conservatives can't do that for the country, but somehow they need to do it for the party. Because party memberships tend to please themselves, which is why all this happens. (Hall is archetypal outer London Conservative. @Leon was on to something with "Make London Fun Again." But that requires a belief in the desirability both London and fun.)
And whilst Labour had enough vitality left to grow back when Corbyn was binned, I'm not as confident that will be the case after the coming defeat for the Conservatives.
PB is filled with male middle class nerds.
As to the BoE and reversing QE - its probably a good idea to 'reload the magazine' for when it is needed again.
Whether they're doing it at the right pace and to the right amount I've no idea.
Sam Freedman
@Samfr
·
10m
You will be astonished to learn that the post-election fightback will include crackdowns on "benefits spongers" and "dangling tax cuts".
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-single-market-lord-frost-b1963535.html
'He told a Scottish Parliament committee in 2015 that the “single market and single trade policy” were major benefits of EU membership.
“When we get to the referendum, I hope it is a real debate about everything that Europe offers. You mentioned quite a few of those things: I would add the single market and single trade policy to that,” he told the devolved legislature at the time.
“Although estimates vary about how much wealth the single market generates for the UK, since we joined, it’s probably in the order of five, six, seven, eight per cent uplift to GDP.
“For somebody on an average salary that’s about £1,500 a year. Most people think that that’s worth having. [...]'
Cutting is for tory wet wimps.
Some kind of coloured structure...
Mindful of the fact that she’s not got a mandate set the date for the election in October.
She can say this gives her time for the public to get to know her and for her to formulate her plans .
This might seem like a Hail Mary but Sunak is useless and has zero connection with the public .
Labour would have had longer and harder lockdowns, with all the damage they caused, but they wouldn't have flouted their own restrictions as stupidly.