I'm at Trooping the Colour and it's complete and utter chaos. We're in a massive queue for ticket holders and there are just swarms of unticketed people swarming down Great George Street swamping the queue. No barriers, marshals or any form of crowd control. Loads of elderly veterans getting swamped and jostled. I thought we were supposed to be good at this kind of thing.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
Nah, enjoy the day off. Bread and Circuses. Bread is a bit pricy, so enjoy the Circus.
Yes, all the pagentry and deference is archaic guff, but a day off in the sunshine imakes it worth raising a glass to the grumpy old dear.
And has little meaningful impact on how we are actually run by the elected anyway. Adds a bit of charming absurdity to the political culture.
Logically our rhetoric on rights and equality should mean we're all republics, but I think the British middle still works pretty well. I'd just prefer some tweaks to have a more proportional voting system, simplify local government and revamp the Lords.
Nobody should get honours except for bravery and voluntary work and the hierarchy should have nothing to with your status but with what you did.
Well that is my view anyway.
And I have to say that was what really turned me off re Alan Clarke's diary extract the other day. His priority seemed to be getting a knighthood, elevation to the Lords and becoming a Privy Councillor. Nothing else mattered as much.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
When I lived in Slough, briefly, in 1989 I noticed 3 bed semis on the market for about 90000.
When we bought our first house in 1991 it cost 80000.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
TBH I think you are underplaying that.
AIUI and judging by video evidence the police "overreacted" when there was nothing to react to. The alleged protagonist largely did not exist.
I suspect so, but reputations do endure. Remember England fans smashing up Marseille?
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
Yes. So it isn't quite as simple as they built it in the wrong part of the City. It's something else.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
When I lived in Slough, briefly, in 1989 I noticed 3 bed semis on the market for about 90000.
When we bought our first house in 1991 it cost 80000.
China plays a much subtler and long term game than Putin’s Russia. It is no less brutal.
It's got the economy (not based on primary industries, but value added too) to back it up as well. Nonetheless. It remains rational for the time being also, for which we must give thanks.
Nobody should get honours except for bravery and voluntary work and the hierarchy should have nothing to with your status but with what you did.
Well that is my view anyway.
And I have to say that was what really turned me off re Alan Clarke's diary extract the other day. His priority seemed to be getting a knighthood, elevation to the Lords and becoming a Privy Councillor. Nothing else mattered as much.
I'm sanguine about honours as its harmless (though people still shouldn't be able to buy them through donations). Peerages is another matter as they have actual authority as a result.
Nah, enjoy the day off. Bread and Circuses. Bread is a bit pricy, so enjoy the Circus.
Yes, all the pagentry and deference is archaic guff, but a day off in the sunshine imakes it worth raising a glass to the grumpy old dear.
I had a nice cup of tea in my Harry and Meghan mug to celebrate.
Love it. I'd hope that stuff fetches a decent price now but they probably produced way too much from the Chinese factory and there's warehouses full of leftovers.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
When I lived in Slough, briefly, in 1989 I noticed 3 bed semis on the market for about 90000.
When we bought our first house in 1991 it cost 80000.
In maidenhead.
Our first home, in 1962 just outside Rochdale, was a rented flat over a corner shop. One bed, toilet a step away from the back door. £2 per week, inclusive. Lovely views up towards the Pennines.
1.5 man hours=3 people working for half an hour to clean one car? Seems unlikely. (I clean my own car so I don't have first hand knowledge on this PB perennial but I would have 0.5 man hours as the upper limit on what seems plausible).
To do it 'properly' it takes me a day and a half with the wheels off and seats out. Rainwater washes, clay bar, wax, ceramic coat, etc. Longer, if I'm doing paint correction.
You're better off doing nothing than taking it to an automatic one or a gang of tatterdemalion kurds with buckets of gritty water. Both will destroy your clear coat.
You cannot escape the second law of thermodynamics. It's rotting and wearing down. My Dad, who worked for Simoniz (car wax etc.) never cleaned his car
I read it as DA getting the wagon ready for sale. Disbelief is proverbially suspended in all sorts of ways in the second-hand horse, and horseless carriage, market.
umm, yes the 2nd law still applies, but maybe you're right. I'm, errrr, a bit rusty on the topic, having sold my only car---Morse Traveler, utterly rotten but otherwise easy to work on and hand-cranked ( I ran it on a dud battery for six months)---in 1973.
Ah freedom from bureaucracy and freedom to use my limbs.
Instinctual aversion to voting Labour meaning no other alternative, NIMBYism, and a dash of conservative liberalism.
Knowing that Socialism was tried and failed, so only thicko’s want to try again, and utter despair at Boris unConservative car crash of a government. Barely a week goes by without Boris government doing some Populist that’s utterly unConservative. He’s not come to praise Conservatism, but to bury it.
"Knowing that Socialism was tried and failed, so only thicko’s want to try again"
That's all very well. Labour under Starmer may be many things. But it ain't Socialism. Or that. Lib Dem fail there.
Ha. Then what? What are Starmer’s values rooted in? What values set are Labour rooted in today 2300 June 1st 2022? What are its texts it will draw policy from, what are its instincts and values it will draw ideals from, who are its heroes it will draw inspiration from?
Couple of simple questions. If Labour get in again will they seek to reset UK capitalism, or is everything just hunky dory today? What is Global Britain to them, what are Labours policies for tackling all the negatives of globalisation the red wall knows too well?
Libdem fail? Or waking you up to your delusion? I’m not expecting thanks from anyone for this service.
The values of social democracy. Those of Attlee, Wilson and Blair. Some of us grew up (literally) fighting actual Communists as our main opponents. I find your Soviet insinuations a little offensive. But then again. You're too young to remember it.
Then let’s look forward. The first point of party politics is to explain the issues and required action from your point of view 🙂
Couple of simple questions. If Labour get in again will they seek to reset UK capitalism, or is everything just hunky dory today? What is Global Britain to them, what are Labours policies for tackling all the negatives of globalisation the red wall knows too well?
Two simple questions, no answers?
You were all a bit cheeky to start with, soon as it turns out MoonRabbit too clever for you, you legged it. 😀
Well these questions about what Starmer Labour are actually for, and will do with power if they have it in 2025, are not going away. They will be waiting for you in the morning.
And here I am. I fear they are above my pay grade, but. Firstly. They are fair criticisms. There hasn't been a great deal of the "vision thing" so far. So I'll have a go from my point of view. "Seek to reset UK capitalism?" I don't think that's the governments job. That's capitalists' job. The issue is the consumer. In areas the government has some control. Too often they've been ignored and made to feel confused by the sheer complexity of it all. Look at energy companies. Public transport. Everything is getting more expensive. And, in many cases, the service is getting worse. Labour needs to be the Party of the consumer champion. Globalisation is a red herring I think. You don't get anywhere restricting international trade. It's a lose lose. Many of the issues of the Red Wall would be eased if public services weren't in such a dire state. The Tories response is to issue diktats based on the Daily Mail, and flap about for "efficiency savings." All the while the delivery gets worse. You can't see a GP, get a passport on time, a driving licence or test. Trains cost a fortune and buses don't exist outside London. The police force? Well. Less said. No one ever seems to start from the question What is the point of it? Buses as an example. What are they for? What should the police be doing? Ask the people who use them. And work from there, with the folk who deliver it, to answer how we get there. And give them the tools to achieve it. It's all tinkering at the moment. Penny pinching and lack of strategic thinking. So. Party of delivery in public services.
The problem is, that the Labour Party, and the Labour movement in general, is now a creature of the people who work in public services, rather than the end user.
Public services are now increasing run for the benefit of their own staff, how will Labour turn that around when under pressure from their own member Unions?
I'm at Trooping the Colour and it's complete and utter chaos. We're in a massive queue for ticket holders and there are just swarms of unticketed people swarming down Great George Street swamping the queue. No barriers, marshals or any form of crowd control. Loads of elderly veterans getting swamped and jostled. I thought we were supposed to be good at this kind of thing.
It's an odd thing, but surprisingly often we're quite bad at things we think we're good at and quite good at things we think we're bad at.
Kind of related: I spoke once to a German student who spent 2 years, GCSE and the A-S-level year, in the UK. When I asked her about the comparision between Britisch and German schools she said that the syllabus has notably less content in England but the quality of teaching is much higher than in Germany. (I assume this is because of the rigourous pestering by Ofsted).
I reckon most Brits would think it the other way round, the sylabus is good but the teaching is poor.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
Really? Had some mates in Catford in the 90's. We always thought it had an unusual air of respectable, dull suburbia for Central London. Either it's gone downhill, or the rest of London has exploded in wealth. Probably the latter.
It's really telling that the only argument supporters can summon up to defend Johnson are that the alternatives might be worse. Not one positive reason for keeping him.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
It's really telling that the only argument supporters can summon up to defend Johnson are that the alternatives might be worse. Not one positive reason for keeping him.
If the alternatives to Johnson are worse than a self-confessed criminal who is accused of financial impropriety, subverted disciplinary proceedings and misled the House, all that proves is the Tories are unfit for government.
1.5 man hours=3 people working for half an hour to clean one car? Seems unlikely. (I clean my own car so I don't have first hand knowledge on this PB perennial but I would have 0.5 man hours as the upper limit on what seems plausible).
To do it 'properly' it takes me a day and a half with the wheels off and seats out. Rainwater washes, clay bar, wax, ceramic coat, etc. Longer, if I'm doing paint correction.
You're better off doing nothing than taking it to an automatic one or a gang of tatterdemalion kurds with buckets of gritty water. Both will destroy your clear coat.
You cannot escape the second law of thermodynamics. It's rotting and wearing down. My Dad, who worked for Simoniz (car wax etc.) never cleaned his car
I read it as DA getting the wagon ready for sale. Disbelief is proverbially suspended in all sorts of ways in the second-hand horse, and horseless carriage, market.
umm, yes the 2nd law still applies, but maybe you're right. I'm, errrr, a bit rusty on the topic, having sold my only car---Morse Traveler, utterly rotten but otherwise easy to work on and hand-cranked ( I ran it on a dud battery for six months)---in 1973.
Ah freedom from bureaucracy and freedom to use my limbs.
Hmmm. I guess that shoulda been "Morris Traveler" ? Anyway I'm out-uv-it.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
I once lived near there. I remember it for that cat statue and the dog track - my last visit to which left me with itchy skin for a few days. Think it's closed now, sadly, which maybe does point to gentrification. You probably shouldn't have a dog track if you want to gentrify.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
I've never experienced (or even seen) violence at any rugby match I've been to.
It starts and ends with banter.
You haven’t been watching what happens on the pitch, then!
I'm at Trooping the Colour and it's complete and utter chaos. We're in a massive queue for ticket holders and there are just swarms of unticketed people swarming down Great George Street swamping the queue. No barriers, marshals or any form of crowd control. Loads of elderly veterans getting swamped and jostled. I thought we were supposed to be good at this kind of thing.
Due to staff shortages, crowd control has been subcontracted to the French.
Instinctual aversion to voting Labour meaning no other alternative, NIMBYism, and a dash of conservative liberalism.
Knowing that Socialism was tried and failed, so only thicko’s want to try again, and utter despair at Boris unConservative car crash of a government. Barely a week goes by without Boris government doing some Populist that’s utterly unConservative. He’s not come to praise Conservatism, but to bury it.
"Knowing that Socialism was tried and failed, so only thicko’s want to try again"
That's all very well. Labour under Starmer may be many things. But it ain't Socialism. Or that. Lib Dem fail there.
Ha. Then what? What are Starmer’s values rooted in? What values set are Labour rooted in today 2300 June 1st 2022? What are its texts it will draw policy from, what are its instincts and values it will draw ideals from, who are its heroes it will draw inspiration from?
Couple of simple questions. If Labour get in again will they seek to reset UK capitalism, or is everything just hunky dory today? What is Global Britain to them, what are Labours policies for tackling all the negatives of globalisation the red wall knows too well?
Libdem fail? Or waking you up to your delusion? I’m not expecting thanks from anyone for this service.
The values of social democracy. Those of Attlee, Wilson and Blair. Some of us grew up (literally) fighting actual Communists as our main opponents. I find your Soviet insinuations a little offensive. But then again. You're too young to remember it.
Then let’s look forward. The first point of party politics is to explain the issues and required action from your point of view 🙂
Couple of simple questions. If Labour get in again will they seek to reset UK capitalism, or is everything just hunky dory today? What is Global Britain to them, what are Labours policies for tackling all the negatives of globalisation the red wall knows too well?
Two simple questions, no answers?
You were all a bit cheeky to start with, soon as it turns out MoonRabbit too clever for you, you legged it. 😀
Well these questions about what Starmer Labour are actually for, and will do with power if they have it in 2025, are not going away. They will be waiting for you in the morning.
And here I am. I fear they are above my pay grade, but. Firstly. They are fair criticisms. There hasn't been a great deal of the "vision thing" so far. So I'll have a go from my point of view. "Seek to reset UK capitalism?" I don't think that's the governments job. That's capitalists' job. The issue is the consumer. In areas the government has some control. Too often they've been ignored and made to feel confused by the sheer complexity of it all. Look at energy companies. Public transport. Everything is getting more expensive. And, in many cases, the service is getting worse. Labour needs to be the Party of the consumer champion. Globalisation is a red herring I think. You don't get anywhere restricting international trade. It's a lose lose. Many of the issues of the Red Wall would be eased if public services weren't in such a dire state. The Tories response is to issue diktats based on the Daily Mail, and flap about for "efficiency savings." All the while the delivery gets worse. You can't see a GP, get a passport on time, a driving licence or test. Trains cost a fortune and buses don't exist outside London. The police force? Well. Less said. No one ever seems to start from the question What is the point of it? Buses as an example. What are they for? What should the police be doing? Ask the people who use them. And work from there, with the folk who deliver it, to answer how we get there. And give them the tools to achieve it. It's all tinkering at the moment. Penny pinching and lack of strategic thinking. So. Party of delivery in public services.
The problem is, that the Labour Party, and the Labour movement in general, is now a creature of the people who work in public services, rather than the end user.
Public services are now increasing run for the benefit of their own staff, how will Labour turn that around when under pressure from their own member Unions?
Au contraire. Public services increasingly aren't run at all. No one is more frustrated by this than the folk who work in them. You can tell this by the fact that, rather than rejoicing in their good fortune at having such a cushy number, they are defecting in droves to other employment.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure it's treason to talk like that on This Of All Days. Shouldn't you be eating imperial vanilla iced slices round a plyboard table in the drizzle?
Bit difficult in sunny Tbiiisi. But you have a point. Maybe I should have a glass of Saperavi on my terrace?
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
I once lived near there. I remember it for that cat statue and the dog track - my last visit to which left me with itchy skin for a few days. Think it's closed now, sadly, which maybe does point to gentrification. You probably shouldn't have a dog track if you want to gentrify.
Good point.
They got rid of the dog tracks at Hackney Wick and Clapton just before gentrification began.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure it's treason to talk like that on This Of All Days. Shouldn't you be eating imperial vanilla iced slices round a plyboard table in the drizzle?
Bit difficult in sunny Tbiiisi. But you have a point. Maybe I should have a glass of Saperavi on my terrace?
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
When Casino is fully erect with a glans like a pomegranate. That's the moment. That's when we'll know.
So, the Jube is here and the weather playing ball. Turns out the road next to us is having a 'street party'. Found this out just yesterday. I was pretty mortified at first but I guess no harm. Might show my face briefly.
The extraordinary thing is that so many people appear mystified as to why it happens.
Shootings of any kind are rare in this country. So are guns. Handguns are virtually non-existent, owners of rifles are subject to careful vetting, and you can forget all about assault weapons.
The extraordinary thing is that so many people appear mystified as to why it happens.
Shootings of any kind are rare in this country. So are guns. Handguns are virtually non-existent, owners of rifles are subject to careful vetting, and you can forget all about assault weapons.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
I once lived near there. I remember it for that cat statue and the dog track - my last visit to which left me with itchy skin for a few days. Think it's closed now, sadly, which maybe does point to gentrification. You probably shouldn't have a dog track if you want to gentrify.
Good point.
They got rid of the dog tracks at Hackney Wick and Clapton just before gentrification began.
And Walthamstow - the Royal Ascot of greyhound racing. No fleas there.
I used to go to the dogs quite regularly in my 20s and 30s.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
I once lived near there. I remember it for that cat statue and the dog track - my last visit to which left me with itchy skin for a few days. Think it's closed now, sadly, which maybe does point to gentrification. You probably shouldn't have a dog track if you want to gentrify.
Bit too suburban to be the new Peckham I think. But it has solid Edwardian housing stock and decent rail links. More like the new Walthamstow or new Balham.
I think the bearded hipster threshold will stay along the Hither Green/ Ladywell/Crofton Park/Nunhead demarcation line. Beyond that they don’t thrive.
The point that he himself got where he is through inbuilt advantages is well-taken, but several of the points he makes in the article are reasonably good, and at least his business does seem to be genuinely helping a lot of unqualified school-leavers into better jobs.
The proud advertisng of living the high life inherited from his father I find a bit odd.
I would credit the businesses and politicians who pay and levy the compulsory training fund. Hopefully there is more to his wealth than grabbing government subsidy spending.
He does seem to be a sort of digital enabler, hooking google up with various businesses.
I looked at this some time ago. This is a skeptical evaluation.
AIUI it grew off the back of the Apprenticeship Levy, the training tax imposed by the Govt on all larger employers, raising several billion a year, and provides a link for potential staff and all those companies who have paid the tax and get can part of it back if they spend it on training.
So an apprentice -> employer link was required. It really imo functioned at that time as an outsourced part of the Apprenticeship offering.
Unless they diversify the model is fragile. So I think the £700m value is a touch hypothetical.
It's dependent on a temporary govt policy and could go pop if the next govt change tack, so he needs to diversify or get money out before the Apprenticeship Levy dependent cash firehose vanishes.
It somewhat reminds me of a Training Provider or several under New Labour who got government contracts to train unemployed people and got rich, then an honour and faded. I recall one that was based in Sheffield, but not the name.
He now has money from tax-subsidised rises in high end London property prices.
For those of us on Netflix, I see Borgen is back! A glimpse of a healthier political world.
Stranger Things is back too, which is more my cup of tea. Great 80s soundtrack. Interesting that in the 80s the Russians were the bad guys, and they are again now in 2022.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure it's treason to talk like that on This Of All Days. Shouldn't you be eating imperial vanilla iced slices round a plyboard table in the drizzle?
Bit difficult in sunny Tbiiisi. But you have a point. Maybe I should have a glass of Saperavi on my terrace?
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
The coronation was 2 June, but 1953, so 69 years today. Has someone miscounted 🤔
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
England Russia in Marseilles 2016 was probably part of the reason for that. Our hooligans, and others, got a severe warning as to what could happen and stayed away or adapted their behaviour.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure it's treason to talk like that on This Of All Days. Shouldn't you be eating imperial vanilla iced slices round a plyboard table in the drizzle?
Bit difficult in sunny Tbiiisi. But you have a point. Maybe I should have a glass of Saperavi on my terrace?
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
The coronation was 2 June, but 1953, so 69 years today. Has someone miscounted 🤔
The succession happens when the prevous one pops clogs so yes - you
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
This one involves random police violence (yes - Paris, I know), in addition to robbery, sexual assault and the rest, by criminal gangs. It is also 2 years before the same place is the main Olympic Stadium. That is a somewhat different category to political violence.
Here's a link I posted the other day - blind fans with their white sticks subjected to clouds of tear gas at an official gate for disabled people, in a queue with wheelchair users.
Macron's big risk is his own political situation, and the Olympics - now that the story has broken through.
Well, not really. There is no danger to the Olympics, because policing of football matches has always been more difficult and aggressive than other sporting events. Football fans have a reputation, one that crosses borders and has endured through modern times.
In the UK crowds have become more middle class and family oriented, in part because of the costs involved, but the Ultras are usually working class men. Supporting a football team is a semi-authorised outlet for aggression, as we see every week in chants, verbal abuse and now social media abuse. It is all part of the atmosphere at big matches. There are few other places where you can shout insults at people in public.
It isn't surprising that it overspills the boundaries to violence at times. It is a difficult situation to police, and it does seem as if the reputation of Liverpool fans caused rather an overreaction by the French Police and SdF management. What looks like exuberent to fans can look potentially riotous to police.
What a farcically pointless misinformed comment. Like a 3 year old trying to explain compound interest
I have been to about 25 football matches a year for the last couple of decades, so have a fair amount of direct observation.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
This has got fuck all to do with football per se and a lot more to do with the ethnic minorities in St Denis and French attitudes to them, accusatory and exculpatory by turns, AND their animosity to the French states, AND the particular history of brutal French policing, AND the history of terrorism at St Denis causing very specific crowd problems, and so on and so forth
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
I'm no legal expert, but I'm pretty sure it's treason to talk like that on This Of All Days. Shouldn't you be eating imperial vanilla iced slices round a plyboard table in the drizzle?
Bit difficult in sunny Tbiiisi. But you have a point. Maybe I should have a glass of Saperavi on my terrace?
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
The coronation was 2 June, but 1953, so 69 years today. Has someone miscounted 🤔
No, it's just nobody wanted a bank holiday in the middle of February. Better to hold it in the summer and have a nice jolly.
I’m afraid the endearing ineptitude of that makes me more of a monarchist
Republicans always get their timing, tone and arguments wrong. Always wrong.
They will try again at the next coronation, and lose then too.
They will always lose.
Yep
The genius of a monarchy is its predictably human unpredictability. So it has inherent drama, like a soap opera, and we are all addicted, even when it takes a dark turn
So you get periods when it’s awful, ugh, Prince Andrew is a fiddler, yuk, and the Queen is nearly dead, oh no, and then suddenly you get a birth or a birthday or a wedding and then Yay, look, the Mall is lovely in the sun! - it reminds me of having a baby which is exactly like Brexit, no, it’s like bringing up a baby - you have periods when it is all nappies and what the F and then you get the first smile or the first word and happiness is unconfined
Except for the churlish, joyless republicans, but then I suspect they get a secret surly joy out of being churlish and joyless, so it’s all good
I'm at Trooping the Colour and it's complete and utter chaos. We're in a massive queue for ticket holders and there are just swarms of unticketed people swarming down Great George Street swamping the queue. No barriers, marshals or any form of crowd control. Loads of elderly veterans getting swamped and jostled. I thought we were supposed to be good at this kind of thing.
Good morning from Old Tbilisi, and a happy Jubilee to everyone, monarchist, anarchist, Fascist, communist….. even republican
To veer slightly off topic, I recall there were some people on here dismissing the Stade de France story as “a scuffle at a football game, will be forgotten in two days”. i said that was not the case, it is indeed not the case. From the Spectator
“The shambles at the Stade de France on Saturday night took a sinister turn on Wednesday as allegations emerged of incidents of sexual assault committed against supporters by gangs of local youths.
“What unfolded outside France’s national stadium on Saturday evening as Liverpool and Real Madrid met inside in the final of the Champions League has dominated the news in France ever since. Most of the criticism for what is seen as a national humiliation is directed at Gérald Darmanin, the Minister of the Interior, who since Saturday evening has insisted that Liverpool supporters were predominantly to blame for the trouble. On Wednesday he received the indirect support of his boss, Emmanuel Macron, via his official spokeswoman, Olivia Grégoire, who assured reporters the president is ‘totally’ behind his beleaguered minister.”
There's rugby and kickball internationals at the SdF, so a complete coin toss which was going on last Saturday, no?
No.
Hooligans gonna hooligan, Paris police gonna do what they do best, and life being the harsh struggle against unfair odds, rounded off by a cheap funeral, that it is, Liverpool fans no matter how saintly gonna have the sins of their fathers visited upon them.
Your normal lazy, low-watt, misinformed take on what is now a huge story - in France
You’re also wrong about the footie/rugby thing. It turns out there have been similar problems at Stade de France at rugby matches too. They have just never been reported as they have been on a smaller scale, and rugby is less salient than soccer
Huge story in France that the banlieus are bandit country? I should get a job at Le Monde, I could have told them that 25 years ago
It's pretty unfortunate because it brings to the fore issues France/Macron would rather just ignore. Juxtaposed with what should have been a French triumph.
Echoes of the 2011 riots?
Exactly. it’s a big story by itself - thousands of people attacked, dozens of children molested, etc etc - but it throws uncomfortable light on an even bigger story, which Macron is desperate not to talk about
Remember that the Interior Minister’s FIRST version of events was that the problems all came from “thousands of British fans trying to get in without tickets and violating stewards”
A complete load of astonishing bollocks from beginning to end.
He also tried to support this ludicrous version of events by saying “most of the people arrested are English”.
However since then French journalists have dug into the truth and revealed that most people arrested are “Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian” etc.
His response to this, last night, when it was pointed out at a press conference? “It is nauseous [ie racist] to talk about the nationality of suspects”. Even tho he was quite happy to call them “English” when it suited him. Incroyable
It looks like his career is going to be truncated, he will be the sacrificial lamb to propitiate the angry gods. However Macron won’t sack him immediately because, elections
Yeah it's fucking carnage out there though. Have a guess before looking at the death and injury count over the last 4 years in gilets jaunes carry ons
and hugely ironically, when I was googling for dangers in Paris generally, I find (Nov 2015)
Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[66] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[67] At the time, the stadium was hosting an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[68][69] The suicide bombers arrived slightly late for the game, and eyewitness reports indicated they did not have tickets, resulting in them being turned away by security guards several times.[65]
The first explosion near the stadium occurred about 20 minutes after the start of the game.[68][69] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium again after a security guard patted him down and found the explosive vest.[70] A few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest outside the security gate, killing himself and a bystander.[65][71] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[72] Three minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up outside another security gate.[note 1][65] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated near the stadium. According to some reports, the location of the third explosion was at a McDonald's restaurant, where over 50 people were injured, seven seriously;[65][70][73] others state the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[74]
The irony being, nobody has commented on the precedent/parallel because NOBODY REMEMBERED IT. And it's a lot more memorable than last weekend's nonsense
Yes, some of the problems seem to come from the Stade de France changing its crowd management policies, after the terror attacks. Eg there are few if any reports of crowd difficulties before the big attacks of 2015, they all date from after then, when the authorities got paranoid about the wrong people getting in
And of course you’re right that is a bigger story than last weekend, but last weekend is still pretty bloody serious. 1000s of people robbed, attacked and traumatised, and dozens if not hundreds of sexual assaults - with police officers saying they have never witnessed anything on this scale
It looks like the French now have a toxic cocktail of near-impossible crowd management problems in the face of terrorism, and all of this with a stadium surrounded by Islamist migrants, and on top of that they now have the threat of constant Cologne style mass robbery and sexual molestation
This is a French paper speculating that the mess might cost Macron “fifty deputies”
“It will end up costing us 50 deputies like the social VAT of Borloo”, fears a senior officer of the macronie. Darmanin in the middle of the fire lopinion.fr/politique/stad… by @LVigogne@mdeprieck Drawing @MonsieurKak”
Personally, I would not go to the Stade de France to watch anything, not now. And I would have been happy to do so, before, because I was oblivious, like all of us
They really should not have built that stadium in Paris 93
Yet. Has been noted before. Stratford wasn't ritzy when we built ours there. It was a dump in the 90's.
When I was living in London in the period around 2000, 3 bed semis in decent streets in Stratford for £70k or so were one hot tip from the London Property Guide.
I reckon Catford might be the next gentrification target. I went out for a drink and a meal with a mate there last night. It's really quite ropey but has excellent transport links into central London with two train stations side by side. There's a bizarrely good and cheap Italian restaurant there too - two pizzas, two deserts and a nice bottle of Primitivo for a bit over £50. Catford is the new Peckham - you heard it here first.
I once lived near there. I remember it for that cat statue and the dog track - my last visit to which left me with itchy skin for a few days. Think it's closed now, sadly, which maybe does point to gentrification. You probably shouldn't have a dog track if you want to gentrify.
Good point.
They got rid of the dog tracks at Hackney Wick and Clapton just before gentrification began.
And Walthamstow - the Royal Ascot of greyhound racing. No fleas there.
I used to go to the dogs quite regularly in my 20s and 30s.
I used to go Southend track OUAT. Quite enjoy dog racing, provided one realises it can be just a tiny bit iffy!
My pattern was identical. Are your first words something certain people are allergic to and somewhere people live?
No, WorLdle, with an extra "L". You are shown the silhouette of a country or territory, and have to guess which one it is. If you guess wrong you are shown a distance and an arrow pointing towards where the actual answer is. 6 attempts allowed. Only Anguilla has defeated me so far.
All rather imperial today, stuck in the century before last. Or (almost) a millennium ago. Empire this, Victoria that, some mediaeval king's ladyfriend's lingerie next.
The point that he himself got where he is through inbuilt advantages is well-taken, but several of the points he makes in the article are reasonably good, and at least his business does seem to be genuinely helping a lot of unqualified school-leavers into better jobs.
The proud advertisng of living the high life inherited from his father I find a bit odd.
I would credit the businesses and politicians who pay and levy the compulsory training fund. Hopefully there is more to his wealth than grabbing government subsidy spending.
He does seem to be a sort of digital enabler, hooking google up with various businesses.
I looked at this some time ago. This is a skeptical evaluation.
AIUI it grew off the back of the Apprenticeship Levy, the training tax imposed by the Govt on all larger employers, raising several billion a year, and provides a link for potential staff and all those companies who have paid the tax and get can part of it back if they spend it on training.
So an apprentice -> employer link was required. It really imo functioned at that time as an outsourced part of the Apprenticeship offering.
Unless they diversify the model is fragile. So I think the £700m value is a touch hypothetical.
It's dependent on a temporary govt policy and could go pop if the next govt change tack, so he needs to diversify or get money out before the Apprenticeship Levy dependent cash firehose vanishes.
It somewhat reminds me of a Training Provider or several under New Labour who got government contracts to train unemployed people and got rich, then an honour and faded. I recall one that was based in Sheffield, but not the name.
He now has money from tax-subsidised rises in high end London property prices.
This is an entrepreneurial thing, chasing subsidies from government initiatives. And maybe the government would say that is the point of them, or at least a fraction of the point.
I oppose the Royal Family on principle but I have no interest in seeing them removed.
I have always believed that we should do things that reduce inequality, increase opportunity and create a better society for all. Removing the Royal Family achieves none of those things.
I will enjoy my extra bank holidays with pleasure, thanks Queenie.
I’m afraid the endearing ineptitude of that makes me more of a monarchist
Republicans always get their timing, tone and arguments wrong. Always wrong.
They will try again at the next coronation, and lose then too.
They will always lose.
Yep
The genius of a monarchy is its predictably human unpredictability. So it has inherent drama, like a soap opera, and we are all addicted, even when it takes a dark turn
So you get periods when it’s awful, ugh, Prince Andrew is a fiddler, yuk, and the Queen is nearly dead, oh no, and then suddenly you get a birth or a birthday or a wedding and then Yay, look, the Mall is lovely in the sun! - it reminds me of having a baby which is exactly like Brexit, no, it’s like bringing up a baby - you have periods when it is all nappies and what the F and then you get the first smile or the first word and happiness is unconfined
Except for the churlish, joyless republicans, but then I suspect they get a secret surly joy out of being churlish and joyless, so it’s all good
Pride, misty eyed patriotism, bemusement, hatred, vitriol, boredom, irrelevance, pageant and swans in equal measure
So, the Jube is here and the weather playing ball. Turns out the road next to us is having a 'street party'. Found this out just yesterday. I was pretty mortified at first but I guess no harm. Might show my face briefly.
Anything that gets people socialising with their neighbours sounds good to me. And if you're mortified I have some worrying news for you. There are far worse things going on in the world.
My pattern was identical. Are your first words something certain people are allergic to and somewhere people live?
No, WorLdle, with an extra "L". You are shown the silhouette of a country or territory, and have to guess which one it is. If you guess wrong you are shown a distance and an arrow pointing towards where the actual answer is. 6 attempts allowed. Only Anguilla has defeated me so far.
Oh that, yes. I play worldle too, with the children. Tradle is the best though. Richer and more complex information.
My question was about the previous post about wordle so I was responding to the wrong one.
And one I am surprised a well read person hasn't heard of. Mind you. As I age I'm finding what folk know and don't know increasingly perplexing.
of course I've heard of it, I bloody love CCR, and had it down as some kind of geographical feature. Just never bothered to narrow it down beyond that.
I’m afraid the endearing ineptitude of that makes me more of a monarchist
Republicans always get their timing, tone and arguments wrong. Always wrong.
They will try again at the next coronation, and lose then too.
They will always lose.
I believe in taking my thoughts straight to the enemy's stronghold, not just sniping opportunistically when the bootlickers are lost in the forest of trying explain away Andrew's sweaty, wandering hands.
This republican stands by his principles in any weather.
Yes.
You're the guy who charges straight at the machine gun nest across 400 yards of no man's land in full view, in the middle of the day, dressed in bright orange whilst carrying a pompous placard and an unloaded antique pistol.
We feel so sorry for you we don't even shoot you.
We just laugh at you as you flounder in the mud half-day across and wait for you to go home again.
I’m afraid the endearing ineptitude of that makes me more of a monarchist
Republicans always get their timing, tone and arguments wrong. Always wrong.
They will try again at the next coronation, and lose then too.
They will always lose.
Yep
The genius of a monarchy is its predictably human unpredictability. So it has inherent drama, like a soap opera, and we are all addicted, even when it takes a dark turn
So you get periods when it’s awful, ugh, Prince Andrew is a fiddler, yuk, and the Queen is nearly dead, oh no, and then suddenly you get a birth or a birthday or a wedding and then Yay, look, the Mall is lovely in the sun! - it reminds me of having a baby which is exactly like Brexit, no, it’s like bringing up a baby - you have periods when it is all nappies and what the F and then you get the first smile or the first word and happiness is unconfined
Except for the churlish, joyless republicans, but then I suspect they get a secret surly joy out of being churlish and joyless, so it’s all good
Joyless my arse , you slaver over a bunch of grifters, crooked, sexual deviants , ne'er do wells etc. A pox on your Royals.
I oppose the Royal Family on principle but I have no interest in seeing them removed.
I have always believed that we should do things that reduce inequality, increase opportunity and create a better society for all. Removing the Royal Family achieves none of those things.
I will enjoy my extra bank holidays with pleasure, thanks Queenie.
Comments
But I did enjoy it back in the day.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/trump-who-withdrawal-china/616475/
China plays a much subtler and long term game than Putin’s Russia. It is no less brutal.
Logically our rhetoric on rights and equality should mean we're all republics, but I think the British middle still works pretty well. I'd just prefer some tweaks to have a more proportional voting system, simplify local government and revamp the Lords.
Well that is my view anyway.
And I have to say that was what really turned me off re Alan Clarke's diary extract the other day. His priority seemed to be getting a knighthood, elevation to the Lords and becoming a Privy Councillor. Nothing else mattered as much.
When we bought our first house in 1991 it cost 80000.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/euro-2016-england-fans-must-look-at-themselves-after-marseille-violence-their-conduct-is-an-embarrassment-a7077911.html
It's something else.
Then at the party conference that year they hit 30+%!
Surely not.
Hmmm.
Have a good day, all.
Nonetheless. It remains rational for the time being also, for which we must give thanks.
Some things are more important than constitutional politics.
I was at the World Cup in St Petersburg and Moscow in 2018 too. The Russians ran it very well, no issues with crowd control or policing at all. Perhaps the CL final should have stayed in StP.
Lovely views up towards the Pennines.
Ah freedom from bureaucracy and freedom to use my limbs.
Public services are now increasing run for the benefit of their own staff, how will Labour turn that around when under pressure from their own member Unions?
I reckon most Brits would think it the other way round, the sylabus is good but the teaching is poor.
Bucket!
Not for the first time, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, you stupid, myopic, bum-faced, wobble-bottomed, morally narcissistic old quack, so shut the fuck up or I shall be forced into rudeness
Yep. Knitted Royalty everywhere, Thousands of em...
Either it's gone downhill, or the rest of London has exploded in wealth. Probably the latter.
Platinum Jubilee: Holmes Chapel welcomes knitted Queen https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-61646243
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1532289597375496192
You can tell this by the fact that, rather than rejoicing in their good fortune at having such a cushy number, they are defecting in droves to other employment.
i must say the Mall looks pretty splendid from this distance, with all the scrambled eggs on the guardly shoulders on the horses in the sun,..
is there a moment which is Actual Jubilee? Like, when we can say: this is it. This is when they put the crown on her head, a billion years ago. Like 11am on November 11?
52.575686,-1.110499
It's crochet though. Not a purl stitch to be seen.
Oklahoma hospital shooting: Four killed and multiple injured
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61669873
They got rid of the dog tracks at Hackney Wick and Clapton just before gentrification began.
Asking for a friend. And a pervert.
Shootings of any kind are rare in this country. So are guns. Handguns are virtually non-existent, owners of rifles are subject to careful vetting, and you can forget all about assault weapons.
This isn't rocket science.
They will try again at the next coronation, and lose then too.
They will always lose.
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
I used to go to the dogs quite regularly in my 20s and 30s.
I think the bearded hipster threshold will stay along the Hither Green/ Ladywell/Crofton Park/Nunhead demarcation line. Beyond that they don’t thrive.
AIUI it grew off the back of the Apprenticeship Levy, the training tax imposed by the Govt on all larger employers, raising several billion a year, and provides a link for potential staff and all those companies who have paid the tax and get can part of it back if they spend it on training.
So an apprentice -> employer link was required. It really imo functioned at that time as an outsourced part of the Apprenticeship offering.
Unless they diversify the model is fragile. So I think the £700m value is a touch hypothetical.
It's dependent on a temporary govt policy and could go pop if the next govt change tack, so he needs to diversify or get money out before the Apprenticeship Levy dependent cash firehose vanishes.
It somewhat reminds me of a Training Provider or several under New Labour who got government contracts to train unemployed people and got rich, then an honour and faded. I recall one that was based in Sheffield, but not the name.
He now has money from tax-subsidised rises in high end London property prices.
Hold my beer I've had an idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayou
Great 80s soundtrack.
Interesting that in the 80s the Russians were the bad guys, and they are again now in 2022.
Tips on what to see in Faro please - 3 hours, near train station
Cheers all.
The genius of a monarchy is its predictably human unpredictability. So it has inherent drama, like a soap opera, and we are all addicted, even when it takes a dark turn
So you get periods when it’s awful, ugh, Prince Andrew is a fiddler, yuk, and the Queen is nearly dead, oh no, and then suddenly you get a birth or a birthday or a wedding and then Yay, look, the Mall is lovely in the sun! - it reminds me of having a baby which is exactly like Brexit, no, it’s like bringing up a baby - you have periods when it is all nappies and what the F and then you get the first smile or the first word and happiness is unconfined
Except for the churlish, joyless republicans, but then I suspect they get a secret surly joy out of being churlish and joyless, so it’s all good
You are shown the silhouette of a country or territory, and have to guess which one it is.
If you guess wrong you are shown a distance and an arrow pointing towards where the actual answer is.
6 attempts allowed. Only Anguilla has defeated me so far.
All rather imperial today, stuck in the century before last. Or (almost) a millennium ago. Empire this, Victoria that, some mediaeval king's ladyfriend's lingerie next.
I have always believed that we should do things that reduce inequality, increase opportunity and create a better society for all. Removing the Royal Family achieves none of those things.
I will enjoy my extra bank holidays with pleasure, thanks Queenie.
Mind you. As I age I'm finding what folk know and don't know increasingly perplexing.
What’s the problem? All they have to do it Arm The Patients. Maybe even give a couple of guns to the dead
My question was about the previous post about wordle so I was responding to the wrong one.
You're the guy who charges straight at the machine gun nest across 400 yards of no man's land in full view, in the middle of the day, dressed in bright orange whilst carrying a pompous placard and an unloaded antique pistol.
We feel so sorry for you we don't even shoot you.
We just laugh at you as you flounder in the mud half-day across and wait for you to go home again.
I tend to agree.