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Tory MP defects to Labour – politicalbetting.com

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  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Johnson just reeling off a few “successes” (some of which are questionable) just won’t wash
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wakeford merely trying to save his seat. Even if the Tories scraped a narrow 1992 style re election Labour would gain his Bury South seat.

    Nothing more

    Puts me in mind of this:
    image

    If I was better technically I'd embed it as an image!
    I've done the Black Arts thingies for you
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited January 2022
    Ian Paisley Jnr sitting on the government benches, which isn't usual AFAIK.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited January 2022
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wakeford merely trying to save his seat. Even if the Tories scraped a narrow 1992 style re election Labour would gain his Bury South seat.

    Nothing more

    Puts me in mind of this:
    image

    If I was better technically I'd embed it as an image!
    Like that?

    image
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    edited January 2022

    He's like a broken record. "wait for Gray, wait for Gray"

    Yes: this might work in the commons but when the soundbites are played on the news Starmer is going to get all the good ones.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Starmer pissing himself laughing

    And really coming alive. Extraordinary.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Heathener said:

    Starmer at his very, very, best. Clinically forensic.

    This is agony for Johnson.

    This is why Johnson needs to be dumped ASAP. He's making Starmer look Prime Ministerial in comparison and making it more difficult for Truss or Sunak to put him back in his box.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    It's a perfectly logical function of our FPTP system, where individual constituency MPs are elected to represent an area and are free to decide at any time whether or not to take a party whip. Other (more proportional) electoral systems are available.

    In pure parliamentary terms there is not much meaningful difference between being a rebel MP who routinely votes against their party whip (e.g. Corbyn, Skinner, or the Maastricht rebels) and taking a different party whip. Only when it comes to a vote of confidence, but with a majority as big as Boris has that's a moot point anyway.
    This is nonsense. Clearly your party membership greatly affects your voting patterns. Wakeford has every right to change parties but he should have the decency to get the sign off of his constituents. The man is a coward.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    From ten points ahead to ten points behind in just a few months.

    And all due to self-inflicted injuries, at a time when there are good stories for the government and missteps from the opposition.

    When did a swing like this last happen? 2008?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2022
    Another Starner joke! “On the bright side at least Downing St staff know how to pack a suitcase”.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Speaker trying to be neutral on HMQ.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    It's a perfectly logical function of our FPTP system, where individual constituency MPs are elected to represent an area and are free to decide at any time whether or not to take a party whip. Other (more proportional) electoral systems are available.

    In pure parliamentary terms there is not much meaningful difference between being a rebel MP who routinely votes against their party whip (e.g. Corbyn, Skinner, or the Maastricht rebels) and taking a different party whip. Only when it comes to a vote of confidence, but with a majority as big as Boris has that's a moot point anyway.
    This is nonsense. Clearly your party membership greatly affects your voting patterns. Wakeford has every right to change parties but he should have the decency to get the sign off of his constituents. The man is a coward.
    And of course the media is biased towards centrist types so will not hold his feet to the fire over it. Just part of the elite stitch up.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Ooh, Starmer crossed the line there, we don’t bring HMQ into it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Another Starner joke! “On the bright side at least Downing St staff know how to pack a suitcase”.

    He’s definitely found a new writer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    tlg86 said:

    Speaker trying to be neutral on HMQ.

    Speaker should have jumped on that earlier.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Starmer is doing well but Johnson hasn’t collapsed (not that things were likely to get that bad). The defection makes this another day of failure for the PM regardless of these performances.
  • PM slapped down by Hoyle :lol:
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Catastrophic performance by Johnson
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, Starmer crossed the line there, we don’t bring HMQ into it.

    But wasn’t made to withdraw it and wasn’t interrupted and told to stop.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, Starmer crossed the line there, we don’t bring HMQ into it.

    Hit home though.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Does the speaker ever lose count of Loto's 6 qs? Or does he do the umpire pebble thing?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    SKS completely misses a gaping open goal with puerile jokes

    i call pre PMQs as peak SKS
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited January 2022
    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit and for the welfare cap and anti tax evasion measures but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    No, you don't. The vote is rightly for the individual but party membership is a major part of that vote. Therefore constituents should be able to vote again, on the individual, when there is a major change to their stances.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    It's a perfectly logical function of our FPTP system, where individual constituency MPs are elected to represent an area and are free to decide at any time whether or not to take a party whip. Other (more proportional) electoral systems are available.

    In pure parliamentary terms there is not much meaningful difference between being a rebel MP who routinely votes against their party whip (e.g. Corbyn, Skinner, or the Maastricht rebels) and taking a different party whip. Only when it comes to a vote of confidence, but with a majority as big as Boris has that's a moot point anyway.
    This is nonsense. Clearly your party membership greatly affects your voting patterns. Wakeford has every right to change parties but he should have the decency to get the sign off of his constituents. The man is a coward.
    That would cost £100,000+ or so, so given that MPs are elected in a personal capacity there is zero point doing so.

    The reality is that a lot of people don't actually understand our political system - if they did you wouldn't have things such as party members electing party leaders...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Great fightback, pretty clear win for Johnson.

    SKS fans please explain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Good PMQs from Boris there, Tory MPs shouting 'more'!
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,179
    Whatever my anger at Boris right now, I'm a bit miffed and rather surprised to see my own MP cross the floor.

    He always seemed a bit of a lightweight and not making a massive impression locally. The local Labour Party has eviscerated him, not least because of him remaining a Pendle Councillor on Lancs CC and drawing expenses for that. It will certainly be amusing to see the local Labour Party leaflets and door knockers explaining why he's now the man for the area. I'm quite looking forward to asking about that in person when they next come round.

    Many friends and family in this area detest the man. I think this defection might help the Tories hold the seat in 2024, oddly.
  • Hugely symbolic on so many levels. The one I like the best is that Bury South has a large Jewish community. The pain Corbyn caused there must have been immense. Wakeford - who is co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Jews - would never dared have moved if he felt Labour had not made substantial progress in tackling its anti-Semitism problem.

    Hugely symbolic in that SKS is happy to sit with Tories

    We feel your pain.

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    IshmaelZ said:

    Great fightback, pretty clear win for Johnson.

    .

    Tongue in cheek, right?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    A bit more fired up bluster from Boris... but it was still just bluster.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Great fightback, pretty clear win for Johnson.

    .

    Tongue in cheek, right?
    :innocent:
  • Golly.
    Sorry to go all BJO, but if this is a straw in the wind for the direction of New New Labour..
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    eek said:

    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    It's a perfectly logical function of our FPTP system, where individual constituency MPs are elected to represent an area and are free to decide at any time whether or not to take a party whip. Other (more proportional) electoral systems are available.

    In pure parliamentary terms there is not much meaningful difference between being a rebel MP who routinely votes against their party whip (e.g. Corbyn, Skinner, or the Maastricht rebels) and taking a different party whip. Only when it comes to a vote of confidence, but with a majority as big as Boris has that's a moot point anyway.
    This is nonsense. Clearly your party membership greatly affects your voting patterns. Wakeford has every right to change parties but he should have the decency to get the sign off of his constituents. The man is a coward.
    That would cost £100,000+ or so, so given that MPs are elected in a personal capacity there is zero point doing so.

    The reality is that a lot of people don't actually understand our political system - if they did you wouldn't have things such as party members electing party leaders...
    100k is too expensive for democracy and voter input? Oh please, the elitism and disdain towards the plebs is painful.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Roger said:

    Starmer is much funnier than I thought. Where's that been hiding?

    It shows how much personal confidence matters. Johnson now looks tacky and trite. Starmer looks suave and effortlessly witty.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Tory MP on Christian Wakeford defection: “The chief whip hauled him in last night and it sent him over the edge when they threatened his seat. This is what bully tactics look like”. There are plans to redraw Bury South seat under boundary change plans.

    https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1483774007283437569?s=20
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    SKS completely misses a gaping open goal with puerile jokes

    i call pre PMQs as peak SKS

    Remember SKS wants Boris to remain in power. Boris seating there means the Tory party continually lose votes and waiting until May to remove Boris seriously reduces the chances of Rishi becoming leader as the Cost of Living crisis becomes obvious to one and all.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Aslan said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    No, you don't. The vote is rightly for the individual but party membership is a major part of that vote. Therefore constituents should be able to vote again, on the individual, when there is a major change to their stances.
    The time to change it was when they let them have party logos on the ballot paper.

    It doesn’t actually bother me. Obviously it doesn’t matter much in this case, but it was interesting that Change UK or whatever they are called didn’t go for it. The reason you do it is for the publicity. As it was, they didn’t and are now a minor footnote in political history.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    HYUFD said:

    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
    He wrote a whole article for ComHome calling for more action on climate change:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2021/09/christian-wakeford-why-we-will-need-a-cabinet-minister-for-net-zero.html
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 882
    IshmaelZ said:

    Great fightback, pretty clear win for Johnson.

    SKS fans please explain.

    Felt like I was listening to audio porn, almost inappropriate at work! Boris was defiant, and he was punchy at the end, but I don't know if that equates to a win for him. SKS was on form, imo.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Union Jack mask too - we don't like to see that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2022
    Heathener said:

    Catastrophic performance by Johnson

    Under Starmer’s best performance ever I thought he held up as well as could be expected - still 6-0 to Starmer though….

    Edit 5-0 as one of Starmer’s questions was out of order.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Theoretically you are right but do you honestly believe that the vast majority of MPs aren’t elected because of the Party that they are telling voters they represent?

    Do you think this MP would be current MP if he had stood as an independent or even more appropriately- would he be the current MP if he had stood as a Labour candidate? Does he have some special genius that attracted the voters of Bury South?

    Well, no…… he was elected as a Tory MP and as I said, if he really believes that he is correct and the voters of his constituency value him above a party, or that he reflects the change in their views then he should have the balls to put it to the test.
  • HYUFD said:

    Good PMQs from Boris there, Tory MPs shouting 'more'!

    In perspective Starmer had so much ammunition which he used well, but not sure looking so self satisfied was a good look and Boris did not buckle despite the intensity and I think he will have done just enough to get to the Gray report

    I want him to resign but not sure it will be this week
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    Tory MP on Christian Wakeford defection: “The chief whip hauled him in last night and it sent him over the edge when they threatened his seat. This is what bully tactics look like”. There are plans to redraw Bury South seat under boundary change plans.

    https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1483774007283437569?s=20

    Gunshot after gunshot at their own feet over the past month.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    The media is describing Bury South as a Red Wall seat but it was Conservative from 1983 to 1997.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Whatever my anger at Boris right now, I'm a bit miffed and rather surprised to see my own MP cross the floor.

    He always seemed a bit of a lightweight and not making a massive impression locally. The local Labour Party has eviscerated him, not least because of him remaining a Pendle Councillor on Lancs CC and drawing expenses for that. It will certainly be amusing to see the local Labour Party leaflets and door knockers explaining why he's now the man for the area. I'm quite looking forward to asking about that in person when they next come round.

    Many friends and family in this area detest the man. I think this defection might help the Tories hold the seat in 2024, oddly.

    They can probably afford to get him to stand down from the Council now.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Re Bury South: It seems to me that when MPs choose to change parties that they should, generally, seek a by-election. There are some exceptions - if a party splits for example.

    I think it's quite weird that anyone could (currently) go from Tory to Labour though. Labour are still very left.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    HYUFD said:

    Good PMQs from Boris there, Tory MPs shouting 'more'!

    “They were shouting Boo-urns……”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    When will the by-election be?

    No by election, straight defection.
    This is very wrong. I am a centrist but the Kippers were willing to put their change of allegiance to the voters. Centrist MPs are too elitist to let their constituents have their say. Pure cowardice.
    Some centrists don't care about ideology or principle, just staying in power and keeping their seat.

    Wakeford would probably have defected to New Labour pre 1997 and the Cameron Tories before 2010 too if he could
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Omnium said:

    Labour are still very left.

    So are the current Conservatives ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    When will the by-election be?

    No by election, straight defection.
    This is very wrong. I am a centrist but the Kippers were willing to put their change of allegiance to the voters. Centrist MPs are too elitist to let their constituents have their say. Pure cowardice.
    Some centrists don't care about ideology or principle, just staying in power and keeping their seat.

    Wakeford would probably have defected to New Labour pre 1997 and the Cameron Tories before 2010 too if he could
    Ironic coming from you.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    In negotiation for 4 months???
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
    He wrote a whole article for ComHome calling for more action on climate change:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2021/09/christian-wakeford-why-we-will-need-a-cabinet-minister-for-net-zero.html
    Don’t forget Bercow was once arguably the most right wing MP in Parliament. Voting record (especially when accounting for how much is whipped) isn’t always a good guide. People do sometimes reach a point where they question the views they had always held.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    tlg86 said:

    Aslan said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    No, you don't. The vote is rightly for the individual but party membership is a major part of that vote. Therefore constituents should be able to vote again, on the individual, when there is a major change to their stances.
    The time to change it was when they let them have party logos on the ballot paper.

    It doesn’t actually bother me. Obviously it doesn’t matter much in this case, but it was interesting that Change UK or whatever they are called didn’t go for it. The reason you do it is for the publicity. As it was, they didn’t and are now a minor footnote in political history.
    Yes, Wakeford is showing himself to be just as much as an elitist as the Change UK types. Carswell was far too right wing for me but he clearly is a principled man and had huge respect for his constituents. This man is not.

    Finding out that Wakeford continues to be a councilor and draw expenses as an MP really sums him up as a chancer. As does the fact he writes pro climate action pieces on ConHome but then votes against the measures in parliament. I don't like him at all from what I have discovered so far.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Absolutely. If people want a party list system instead then they need to campaign for it.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Whatever my anger at Boris right now, I'm a bit miffed and rather surprised to see my own MP cross the floor.

    He always seemed a bit of a lightweight and not making a massive impression locally. The local Labour Party has eviscerated him, not least because of him remaining a Pendle Councillor on Lancs CC and drawing expenses for that. It will certainly be amusing to see the local Labour Party leaflets and door knockers explaining why he's now the man for the area. I'm quite looking forward to asking about that in person when they next come round.

    Many friends and family in this area detest the man. I think this defection might help the Tories hold the seat in 2024, oddly.

    Interesting info. It does seem highly likely that he is worried about losing income to support his young family. It would have been highly likely that he would lose his seat as a Tory MP and would be more likely to hold it if he joined Labour. His voting record suggests he isn't left wing at all. As much as it would be easy to complain about him doing so I do understand why he would make such a decision.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TimS said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Absolutely. If people want a party list system instead then they need to campaign for it.
    Party membership is a major part of who an individual MP is but not the entirety. This isn't a difficult concept.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .
    Heathener said:

    I've seen a few crossing floors in my life and still don't know what to make of them. They can really irritate party diehards.

    The situation would of course be a lot less dramatic if whips weren't so violent (I choose that word deliberately in its mostly non-physical meaning) in their insistence on towing the party line and if the two party system were not so starkly architectural in the two chambers.

    A more consensual, less adversarial, less two-party binary system would do the country a lot of good.*

    Not that I expect much support for such a comment in this frequently bear-pit online chamber.



    * Waits for the first person to mention Italy

    Toeing. :smile:
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited January 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    The media is describing Bury South as a Red Wall seat but it was Conservative from 1983 to 1997.

    Yes, Labour only arguably lost it in 2019 because Ivan Lewis and the Greens stood. It was a seat which Labour really shouldn't have lost in 2019 unlike some of the actual red wall seats.

    'Red wall' should only really apply to seats like Leigh, Burnley, Sedgefield, Bolsover etc
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Pretty brave to make yourself a pariah to everyone - especially if as suggested he only decided last night. Nobody likes a rat and I doubt he'll feel particularly welcome in his new seat.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315

    HYUFD said:

    Good PMQs from Boris there, Tory MPs shouting 'more'!

    In perspective Starmer had so much ammunition which he used well, but not sure looking so self satisfied was a good look and Boris did not buckle despite the intensity and I think he will have done just enough to get to the Gray report

    I want him to resign but not sure it will be this week
    Johnson always has the option of stonewalling questions, which he did effectively here. Indeed, his instincts will tell him that his only option now is to do exactly that & hope something turns up.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    AlistairM said:

    Whatever my anger at Boris right now, I'm a bit miffed and rather surprised to see my own MP cross the floor.

    He always seemed a bit of a lightweight and not making a massive impression locally. The local Labour Party has eviscerated him, not least because of him remaining a Pendle Councillor on Lancs CC and drawing expenses for that. It will certainly be amusing to see the local Labour Party leaflets and door knockers explaining why he's now the man for the area. I'm quite looking forward to asking about that in person when they next come round.

    Many friends and family in this area detest the man. I think this defection might help the Tories hold the seat in 2024, oddly.

    Interesting info. It does seem highly likely that he is worried about losing income to support his young family. It would have been highly likely that he would lose his seat as a Tory MP and would be more likely to hold it if he joined Labour. His voting record suggests he isn't left wing at all. As much as it would be easy to complain about him doing so I do understand why he would make such a decision.
    Isn't he on close to 90k as an MP?!
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Absolutely. If people want a party list system instead then they need to campaign for it.
    Party membership is a major part of who an individual MP is but not the entirety. This isn't a difficult concept.
    So... not a whole by-election, just a bit of one?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Strong performance from Starmer at PMQs - but Boris Johnson on fighting form - clearly hasn't given up yet.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1483776500293943298?s=20
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    I had been expecting rather better from Starmer - for me he lacked punch and the repetitions didn't work any better than the smugness. I guess he prefers Boris in post to a resignation. Pity as it prolongs the agony unnecessarily. The defection for me is badly timed and surely would have been far more sensible to trigger, and inevitably win, the subsequent by-election?
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    alex_ said:

    In negotiation for 4 months???

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
    He wrote a whole article for ComHome calling for more action on climate change:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2021/09/christian-wakeford-why-we-will-need-a-cabinet-minister-for-net-zero.html
    Don’t forget Bercow was once arguably the most right wing MP in Parliament. Voting record (especially when accounting for how much is whipped) isn’t always a good guide. People do sometimes reach a point where they question the views they had always held.
    Bercow is the most incredible right to left wing transformation that I can recall. Shows the impact one's partner can have too. When Bercow joined Labour it was the most unsurprising news.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    HYUFD said:

    Good PMQs from Boris there, Tory MPs shouting 'more'!

    In perspective Starmer had so much ammunition which he used well, but not sure looking so self satisfied was a good look and Boris did not buckle despite the intensity and I think he will have done just enough to get to the Gray report

    I want him to resign but not sure it will be this week
    I agree with Both of you it was a good PMQs from Boris.

    He is not without skills nor some good news to deliver.

    And yes, Starmer’s delivery of his jokes and lines were right off today. Much better last week channeling electorates anger, this week Starmer just self satisfied, complacent and so not delivering his lines very well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    When will the by-election be?

    No by election, straight defection.
    This is very wrong. I am a centrist but the Kippers were willing to put their change of allegiance to the voters. Centrist MPs are too elitist to let their constituents have their say. Pure cowardice.
    Some centrists don't care about ideology or principle, just staying in power and keeping their seat.

    Wakeford would probably have defected to New Labour pre 1997 and the Cameron Tories before 2010 too if he could
    Ironic coming from you.
    I don't change parties like I change my socks, no
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    alex_ said:

    In negotiation for 4 months???

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
    He wrote a whole article for ComHome calling for more action on climate change:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2021/09/christian-wakeford-why-we-will-need-a-cabinet-minister-for-net-zero.html
    Don’t forget Bercow was once arguably the most right wing MP in Parliament. Voting record (especially when accounting for how much is whipped) isn’t always a good guide. People do sometimes reach a point where they question the views they had always held.
    Which is why a by election should be held. If you change your views wholesale to the extent you change party allegiance, the voters should be able to have their input. But some MPs are too attached to their salary and expenses to respect their constituents.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    kinabalu said:

    Union Jack mask too - we don't like to see that.
    Starmer does

    Will he cross the floor on Lancashire CC too

    Anti Climate change, pro austerity pro statues of slavers true Thatcherite


    Perfect face for SKS Labour
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "Young Labour
    @YoungLabourUK

    Christian Wakeford MP should not be admitted to the Labour Party. He has consistently voted against the interests of working-class people; for the £20 universal credit cut, for the Nationality and Borders Bill and for the Police and Crime Bill. Young Labour does not welcome him.
    12:14 PM · Jan 19, 2022"
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    tlg86 said:

    A question I asked years ago:

    If you send a letter to Brady (not old lady...), can you recall it if you want? I.e. send in a letter contradicting it.

    If not, do letters have a lifetime? If I was an MP and sent it in two years ago, does it still count?

    Yes, it counts until you retract it.
    And, iirc, General Elections clear the drawer as well.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited January 2022
    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Absolutely. If people want a party list system instead then they need to campaign for it.
    Party membership is a major part of who an individual MP is but not the entirety. This isn't a difficult concept.
    A lot of people including people who should know better think they vote for a party and you really don't.

    Remember there are a number of votes that are very much personal with no whip involved (much to the disgust of HYUFD who believes that abortion, as an example, should be a political party issue).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Andy_JS said:

    The media is describing Bury South as a Red Wall seat but it was Conservative from 1983 to 1997.

    Yes, Labour only arguably lost it in 2019 because Ivan Lewis and the Greens stood. It was a seat which Labour really shouldn't have lost in 2019 unlike some of the actual red wall seats.

    'Red wall' should only really apply to seats like Leigh, Burnley, Sedgefield, Bolsover etc
    The most disappointed man or woman today will be Labour’s candidate there.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    tlg86 said:

    When will the by-election be?

    No by election, straight defection.
    This is very wrong. I am a centrist but the Kippers were willing to put their change of allegiance to the voters. Centrist MPs are too elitist to let their constituents have their say. Pure cowardice.
    Some centrists don't care about ideology or principle, just staying in power and keeping their seat.

    Wakeford would probably have defected to New Labour pre 1997 and the Cameron Tories before 2010 too if he could
    Ironic coming from you.
    I don't change parties like I change my socks, no
    You change your principles though. You’re currently cheering on a Corbynista manifesto with a few right wing populist policies sprinkled on top. The same policies you were criticising in 2017.

    The fact you made this comment is laughable. A laughable lack of self awareness.
  • Strong performance from Starmer at PMQs - but Boris Johnson on fighting form - clearly hasn't given up yet.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1483776500293943298?s=20

    Coming from Pippa that is interesting
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Not everyone is happy about the defection.

    https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1483774774350422016
    Christian Wakeford MP should not be admitted to the Labour Party. He has consistently voted against the interests of working-class people; for the £20 universal credit cut, for the Nationality and Borders Bill and for the Police and Crime Bill. Young Labour does not welcome him.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Quite entertaining PMQs. Boris quite feisty. Not really sure what to make of the defection, and whether, on balance, it makes much difference. The Tory whips obviously screwed up big time - think that may be the main lesson here.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Heathener said:

    I've seen a few crossing floors in my life and still don't know what to make of them. They can really irritate party diehards.

    The situation would of course be a lot less dramatic if whips weren't so violent (I choose that word deliberately in its mostly non-physical meaning) in their insistence on towing the party line and if the two party system were not so starkly architectural in the two chambers.

    A more consensual, less adversarial, less two-party binary system would do the country a lot of good.*

    Not that I expect much support for such a comment in this frequently bear-pit online chamber.



    * Waits for the first person to mention Italy

    Like Israel?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    boulay said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Theoretically you are right but do you honestly believe that the vast majority of MPs aren’t elected because of the Party that they are telling voters they represent?

    Do you think this MP would be current MP if he had stood as an independent or even more appropriately- would he be the current MP if he had stood as a Labour candidate? Does he have some special genius that attracted the voters of Bury South?

    Well, no…… he was elected as a Tory MP and as I said, if he really believes that he is correct and the voters of his constituency value him above a party, or that he reflects the change in their views then he should have the balls to put it to the test.
    Tiny majority, though, and per the current polls the seat is safe Labour. So all this is doing is reflecting that now rather than putting it off until 2024. It can be viewed as accelerated democracy.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Polruan said:

    Aslan said:

    TimS said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Absolutely. If people want a party list system instead then they need to campaign for it.
    Party membership is a major part of who an individual MP is but not the entirety. This isn't a difficult concept.
    So... not a whole by-election, just a bit of one?
    No, a whole by election where the guy can set out where he now agrees with Labour more and where he remains independent from their platform. You know, like any election for an MP.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Great theatre, but this defection is, objectively speaking, very odd indeed. Why would you defect just at the point where it's likely that there will be a new leader and probably a considerable change of direction in your party? Is Wakeford going to do a reverse flounce if the party chooses a new leader who is better aligned with his views?

    Which leading contender stands ready to deliver more for the North?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    maaarsh said:

    Pretty brave to make yourself a pariah to everyone - especially if as suggested he only decided last night. Nobody likes a rat and I doubt he'll feel particularly welcome in his new seat.

    Defectors are generally nothing but trouble. You buy a one-off PR boost on the day and suffer for it thereafter.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    kinabalu said:

    Union Jack mask too - we don't like to see that.
    Starmer does

    Will he cross the floor on Lancashire CC too

    Anti Climate change, pro austerity pro statues of slavers true Thatcherite


    Perfect face for SKS Labour
    30 minutes is a long time in politics. 😆

    It’s now bad day for Starmer and a good day for Boris!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    AlistairM said:

    alex_ said:

    In negotiation for 4 months???

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If that is his voting record he is even more rightwing than me, not only firmly pro Brexit but even anti climate change measures.

    His defection therefore merely to save his own skin rather than on principle
    He wrote a whole article for ComHome calling for more action on climate change:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2021/09/christian-wakeford-why-we-will-need-a-cabinet-minister-for-net-zero.html
    Don’t forget Bercow was once arguably the most right wing MP in Parliament. Voting record (especially when accounting for how much is whipped) isn’t always a good guide. People do sometimes reach a point where they question the views they had always held.
    Bercow is the most incredible right to left wing transformation that I can recall. Shows the impact one's partner can have too. When Bercow joined Labour it was the most unsurprising news.
    Portillo's zoom across the party was also interesting. In both cases the strong suggestion is that they were saying what they thought would get them elected. And in both cases, which was the real person? Neither?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    When is @HYUFD going to cross the floor?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Well said BJO, we may disagree politically but I respect your principles
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    AlistairM said:

    Not everyone is happy about the defection.

    https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1483774774350422016
    Christian Wakeford MP should not be admitted to the Labour Party. He has consistently voted against the interests of working-class people; for the £20 universal credit cut, for the Nationality and Borders Bill and for the Police and Crime Bill. Young Labour does not welcome him.

    LOL. Don’t look the gift horse in the mouth, Young Labour.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    HYUFD said:

    Corbynistas not happy.

    'You realise right, that centrist Labour sabotaged two general elections? This just shows Labour are actually Tory 2, the backup team. Pointless.'
    https://twitter.com/raystonian/status/1483769632431480832?s=20

    'You see the problem with Labour taking tories into its ranks though?'
    https://twitter.com/FALLLFAN/status/1483770154513272837?s=20

    'I can't believe I have to explain this, but winning an election is meaningless if the only material change is the colour and name of the governing party'
    https://twitter.com/thetertus/status/1483769753638424579?s=20

    'More Tories in the Parliamentary Labour Party. That’s *exactly* what we need.'
    https://twitter.com/MrGeorgePRS/status/1483769897612161026?s=20

    Big tents are popular.
  • IanB2 said:

    Great theatre, but this defection is, objectively speaking, very odd indeed. Why would you defect just at the point where it's likely that there will be a new leader and probably a considerable change of direction in your party? Is Wakeford going to do a reverse flounce if the party chooses a new leader who is better aligned with his views?

    Which leading contender stands ready to deliver more for the North?
    Any of them. Just a bit of moderately functional government would help. And it's not as though Labour have any better ideas on that agenda.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    Alistair said:

    boulay said:

    Regardless of Boris being crap I really don’t agree with MPs switching parties like this - really think morally they should trigger a by-election as in most cases they are elected as a member of their original party.

    If they believe that the other party is better for the country then they should have the courage of their convictions that their constituents would agree and vote for them in their new party.

    Would be more honest or fair to resign the whip and act as an Independent IMHO.

    Under FPTP we elect individuals. If we as a nation want to continue with the dreadful system then you have to accept that an individual can switch party at any time for any reason and demanding they put themselves up for re-election means you think FPTP is a sham.
    Theoretically you are right but do you honestly believe that the vast majority of MPs aren’t elected because of the Party that they are telling voters they represent?

    Do you think this MP would be current MP if he had stood as an independent or even more appropriately- would he be the current MP if he had stood as a Labour candidate? Does he have some special genius that attracted the voters of Bury South?

    Well, no…… he was elected as a Tory MP and as I said, if he really believes that he is correct and the voters of his constituency value him above a party, or that he reflects the change in their views then he should have the balls to put it to the test.
    Tiny majority, though, and per the current polls the seat is safe Labour. So all this is doing is reflecting that now rather than putting it off until 2024. It can be viewed as accelerated democracy.
    Accelerated democracy where the constituents don't get to vote. Sounds like the sort of democracy that elected von der Leyen as EU President.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    IanB2 said:

    maaarsh said:

    Pretty brave to make yourself a pariah to everyone - especially if as suggested he only decided last night. Nobody likes a rat and I doubt he'll feel particularly welcome in his new seat.

    Defectors are generally nothing but trouble. You buy a one-off PR boost on the day and suffer for it thereafter.
    At the same time you can’t actually stop them, can you? I guess you don’t have put them on your party whip’s lists.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Sandpit said:

    Another Starner joke! “On the bright side at least Downing St staff know how to pack a suitcase”.

    He’s definitely found a new writer.
    ...and that one wasn't even his best
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynistas not happy.

    'You realise right, that centrist Labour sabotaged two general elections? This just shows Labour are actually Tory 2, the backup team. Pointless.'
    https://twitter.com/raystonian/status/1483769632431480832?s=20

    'You see the problem with Labour taking tories into its ranks though?'
    https://twitter.com/FALLLFAN/status/1483770154513272837?s=20

    'I can't believe I have to explain this, but winning an election is meaningless if the only material change is the colour and name of the governing party'
    https://twitter.com/thetertus/status/1483769753638424579?s=20

    'More Tories in the Parliamentary Labour Party. That’s *exactly* what we need.'
    https://twitter.com/MrGeorgePRS/status/1483769897612161026?s=20

    Big tents are popular.
    Why don't they all just f*** off and join the Tories?
This discussion has been closed.