German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU
I wonder if Merkel and Olaf have realised why Britain after opening up during the Summer is facing a better winter than Germany yet?
Olaf should have been saying "let's go bring back summer".
You really are a thick jingoistic halfwitted troll. Thick and stupid being the main part.
“Thick jingoistic halfwitted troll”. Good self awareness but it’s unhealthy - don’t be so hard on yourself Malc. It’s good to recognise your faults but use them to develop, don’t ruminate or dwell. Do some positive self-affirmations rather than beating up yourself for past transgressions.
BTW I’ve knitted those saltire socks you wanted. Where should I send them? My boyfriend said that putting “Biggest Snowflake in Ayrshire” on the package should do the trick.
Construction will last for nearly 20 years, and will cause extensive damage and pollution of almost every conceivable type to our communities, schools and businesses. I believe that is wholly unacceptable. I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities.
This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.
In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.
* In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.
But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.
BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.
Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.
In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?
Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.
We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)
This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
Not when it is a racist whistleblower, all he has done is start a woke racisthunt. English cricket is f***ed, the do gooders will all be trying to outdo each other in the racist hunting. Who will be the racist finder General appointed to clear out the stables. There will be a few nice sinecures for some yahoos for sure.
That’s what it’s about, or in part, people and organisations to come in to look at and manage the issue and be handsomely remunerated for it.
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
Strange and slightly unpleasant comparison. 2015 tweet. Starmer was opposed to HS2 then because his constituency was. Two things have changed. 1) HS2 (London to Birmingham) is happening. 2) Starmer is no longer a backbench MP fighting for his constituency, he's now national leader. No hypocrisy here.
It's not difficult.
It depends on the wording. If he said he wanted to stop the HS2-HS1 link only, and supported the rest of the HS2 network, fair enough. If he said he just wanted to stop HS2, it's not.
At least he's not as bad as (most of) the Greens, who spent decades wanting high-speed rail in the UK, and the moment it's proposed they realise there are more votes in being against it...
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
The French still get an awful lot of stick - mainly on here.
German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU
I wonder if Merkel and Olaf have realised why Britain after opening up during the Summer is facing a better winter than Germany yet?
Olaf should have been saying "let's go bring back summer".
You really are a thick jingoistic halfwitted troll. Thick and stupid being the main part.
“Thick jingoistic halfwitted troll”. Good self awareness but it’s unhealthy - don’t be so hard on yourself Malc. It’s good to recognise your faults but use them to develop, don’t ruminate or dwell. Do some positive self-affirmations rather than beating up yourself for past transgressions.
BTW I’ve knitted those saltire socks you wanted. Where should I send them? My boyfriend said that putting “Biggest Snowflake in Ayrshire” on the package should do the trick.
Cockroaches are coming out from under their rocks early today. F Off Loser and keep doing so. Afraid you trying to be anything other than tanktop man does not read well, your boyfriend sounds as big a plank as you do. Do try to be original in future, your patter is shite.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
The French still get an awful lot of stick - mainly on here.
Yes, and it’s a bit tiresome. See also the mild anti-Scots and anti-Irish stuff you see on here.
I think the playlist restriction will be the one most required to get people not to touch their phones while driving.
Although still plenty of fumbling to switch channels on car radios.
Bluetooth recently stopped working in my car for reasons mysterious to me. On my last longish journey fumbling through cds on the passenger seat added a a retro frisson to the driving experience.
Interesting, however there are still many unanswered questions, not least that there is evidence of cases around the world (France, Italy) etc before Dec 2021. Now these could be sample contamination, but might not be.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
SNP Leader Nicola Sturgeon claimed that “just short of 100% of all the electricity [Scotland uses] is from renewable sources.” But this isn’t correct.
Estimates suggest Scotland produced 32,000 gigawatt hours of renewable electricity in 2020, equivalent to around 97% of its entire electricity consumption. But it exports a lot of this, relying on non-renewable electricity sources to make up the difference. The Scottish government estimates that last year 56% of the electricity consumed in Scotland came from renewable sources, 30% from nuclear and 13% from fossil fuels. Renewables account for far more of Scotland’s electricity consumption than in England and Wales - but to suggest it's almost 100% is misleading.
A spokesperson from the Scottish Government told us that the First Minister was referring to Scotland’s gross electricity consumption and it was not her intention to suggest otherwise.
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Something can be good for the people of the UK, but bad for the people of Camden.
One would expect (or maybe hope) the leader of the Labour Party would prioritize the country as a whole. One would also expect that the MP for Camden would seek to stand up for his constituents.
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Slight problem with your arguments
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
It feels like schools are much more active against bullying than they were when I was a kid, not that I remember much of it personally.
Anti-bullying is much more important, in my opinion, than ever extreme attempts to police language.
It's night and day. The difference is not so much the classic school bullies (they still exist) but the casual group bullying ("teasing") which was endemic throughout schools in my childhood and now gets zero tolerance.
This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.
In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.
* In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.
But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.
BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.
Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.
In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?
Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.
We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)
This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
Not when it is a racist whistleblower, all he has done is start a woke racisthunt. English cricket is f***ed, the do gooders will all be trying to outdo each other in the racist hunting. Who will be the racist finder General appointed to clear out the stables. There will be a few nice sinecures for some yahoos for sure.
That’s what it’s about, or in part, people and organisations to come in to look at and manage the issue and be handsomely remunerated for it.
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
As @Cyclefree keeps on pointing out, there is a real need for external auditors to come in a fix the stupidly toxic cultures in various large organisations.
Confusing this with bullshit seminars on "Bad Facts" is a problem. People schedule the bullshit seminars and pat themselves on the back. Since Constable Savage got 100% on the test (online, 10 questions, multiple choice, unlimited repeats).
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps claims it is "not accurate" to suggest the eastern leg of HS2 has been scrapped - despite confirming that the majority of the project had been axed in yesterday's House of Commons announcement.
They haven't scrapped it. HS2 East still exists even though they have decided not to build it.
What does that mean? The people who protested against it because it went through their land / houses are still blighted. The land remains safeguarded, the houses remain worthless, their lives remain ruined.
Vote Conservative!
My local news last night was dominated by happy people in various locations that now think they have been spared and the planning 'blight' is over.
According to the IRP
3.48 We will look at the most effective way to run HS2 trains to Leeds and start work on the new West Yorkshire Mass Transit System 3.49 This work will inform decisions about future-proofing to be reflected in the hybrid Bill design for the East Midlands high speed line (if necessary, during its passage) to minimise the risk of costly changes later; and on safeguarding of the current route. However, pending conclusion of the work set out above, the Government does not intend to lift safeguarding on the previously proposed HS2 route at this time. Safeguarding Directions are kept under review and updated periodically to reflect the latest route design, and keeping the current provisions in place this will ensure that affected residential property owners retain access to the various support schemes.
It would appear that the planning 'blight' is likely to continue.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
I very rarely saw any bullying at secondary school but that’s not to say it didn’t exist. In fact I probably saw activity that was bullying it didn’t recognise it as such.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
Round here they voted for jam today and tomorrow as that is what Boris promised.
Now in theory we've got that (as we've got a very big Government department coming) so we are likely to be a fairly unique case (which is a shame as our Tory MP is utterly useless compared to a lot of the new intake) but I'm not sure the other Red Wall seats will be so happy.
What they really want to see is investment in their town and investment in their region and if they see neither they will move to a party that may offer them that.
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Slight problem with your arguments
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
Nerys' central points still remain namely (1) SKS is a hypocrite and has been found out (another one who forgets his tweets) and (2) plenty of people on here were saying HS2 was a waste but now seem to be fervent backers given it can be used to bash BJ
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I never heard of anyone being bullied for having red hair, nor did my wife (who had, at the time). Nor did our children, two of whom did. However a grandson and great-nephew both did, one at school in Lancashire and the other in Kent.
I saw a fair amount of bullying at all my schools. Of boys to boys, and girls to girls (it isn't just a male thing). In fact, I'd argue that some of the physical abuse from girls to other girls was worse than between the boys.
But it was fairly easy to ignore or turn a blind eye to the bullying. Bullies soon learn who, when and where to bully.
Fortunately, I wasn't much of a target. Perhaps because I had an obvious physical injury, which made me too 'soft' a target. Or the fact I was tall. Or the fact I hung around in the computer lab rather than the sports hall. Or the fact I had massive wooden crutches that I could swing at someone ...
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Something can be good for the people of the UK, but bad for the people of Camden.
One would expect (or maybe hope) the leader of the Labour Party would prioritize the country as a whole. One would also expect that the MP for Camden would seek to stand up for his constituents.
The way he worded it though doesn't leave much room for nuance. Surprising given he is a lawyer
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
I fear it's the mists of time. I doubt there was a school anywhere 40 years ago where bullying of sorts didn't exist. Particularly if you include name calling which is what to days episode is all about.
Interesting, however there are still many unanswered questions, not least that there is evidence of cases around the world (France, Italy) etc before Dec 2021. Now these could be sample contamination, but might not be.
There are lots of problems - such as the fact that antibody tests are far from perfect, and that exposure to other Coronaviruses can lead to positive results.
And there are also lots of explanations: 'lab leak', for example, could include a worker bit by a bat who passed the disease onto others without ever knowing he was patient zero.
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Slight problem with your arguments
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
Nerys' central points still remain namely (1) SKS is a hypocrite and has been found out (another one who forgets his tweets) and (2) plenty of people on here were saying HS2 was a waste but now seem to be fervent backers given it can be used to bash BJ
On 1) what SKS says about the mess at Euston is actually true, but because of previous decisions it's completely unavoidable as no other location exists that doesn't have bigger issues (Paddington Basin I'm looking at you). As the local MP that mess trumps everything, as a national leader the viewpoint shifts towards the benefits for 20 million outweighs the pain for 100,000.
2) Let me give you an opposite viewpoint (which has been mine for as least as long as I've been on this site).
Hs2 was a great idea, but in it's new form is a waste of money and work should be stopped immediately.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
If you don't remember bullying, then you were probably the bully.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
"It reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp." - exactly. Short of David Cameron standing up and saying "they are right".....
I voted Remain for pragmatic, rather than ideological reasons. And expecting a massive majority for out in a latter referendum - triggered by the EU expanded its competencies into health.
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps claims it is "not accurate" to suggest the eastern leg of HS2 has been scrapped - despite confirming that the majority of the project had been axed in yesterday's House of Commons announcement.
They haven't scrapped it. HS2 East still exists even though they have decided not to build it.
What does that mean? The people who protested against it because it went through their land / houses are still blighted. The land remains safeguarded, the houses remain worthless, their lives remain ruined.
Vote Conservative!
My local news last night was dominated by happy people in various locations that now think they have been spared and the planning 'blight' is over.
They're going to go apoplectic when they realised just how much they have been screwed over.
This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.
In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.
* In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.
But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.
BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.
Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.
In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?
Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.
We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)
This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
Not when it is a racist whistleblower, all he has done is start a woke racisthunt. English cricket is f***ed, the do gooders will all be trying to outdo each other in the racist hunting. Who will be the racist finder General appointed to clear out the stables. There will be a few nice sinecures for some yahoos for sure.
That’s what it’s about, or in part, people and organisations to come in to look at and manage the issue and be handsomely remunerated for it.
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
As @Cyclefree keeps on pointing out, there is a real need for external auditors to come in a fix the stupidly toxic cultures in various large organisations.
Confusing this with bullshit seminars on "Bad Facts" is a problem. People schedule the bullshit seminars and pat themselves on the back. Since Constable Savage got 100% on the test (online, 10 questions, multiple choice, unlimited repeats).
I disagree. External auditors cannot 'fix' toxic cultures. At best, they can identify toxic cultures exist and where the problems lie. It is up to the organisation to fix itself.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
Round here they voted for jam today and tomorrow as that is what Boris promised.
Now in theory we've got that (as we've got a very big Government department coming) so we are likely to be a fairly unique case (which is a shame as our Tory MP is utterly useless compared to a lot of the new intake) but I'm not sure the other Red Wall seats will be so happy.
What they really want to see is investment in their town and investment in their region and if they see neither they will move to a party that may offer them that.
I am a little further up the A167 from you but I completely echo this. This is exactly what people voted for up here too.
I have said it before to my Brexiteer mates who live in the South, who thought no deal was great and sovereignty the be all and end all. People voted Brexit to improve their lives and their communities and if that does not happen for the Tories there will be a heavy price to pay and a fair bit of anger.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Looks as if the NI protocol discussions are warming and let's hope for everyone's sake a deal is concluded and hopefully commence a period of more cooperation between UK - EU
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
I very rarely saw any bullying at secondary school but that’s not to say it didn’t exist. In fact I probably saw activity that was bullying it didn’t recognise it as such.
I think there are several elements. There is the you are a ****** and hence I will physically abuse you or other classic bullying elements for being a ******; and then there is the you are a ****** with no accompanying classic bullying behaviour but which relegates that person to a lesser individual and that is then normalised.
Is the latter "bullying"? Not sure. It is certainly discrimination and the context matters: playground, workplace, Yorkshire County Cricket Club, etc.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I spent most of my primary school years in a slightly iffy neighbourhood of Newcastle in the early-mid 1980s. There was a sizeable Asian community and the racism towards them was endemic. My dad caught some kids shouting "P*** bastard" through the letterbox of the local corner shop (everyone called the owner Colin because they were too thick to call him Mr Kohli). There were NF slogans spray painted everywhere. The local kids, who I used to play with in the back lane, would chuck bricks at people's windows, mostly Asian families' houses. Football games in the playground never had mixed teams. I myself once used a racial epithet against an Asian kid when I was 8 or 9. I still don't really understand how it happened as I knew it was wrong at the time. I'm still utterly ashamed. The school did its best but the atmosphere was completely toxic. My wife (who is Asian) grew up in a more middle class area of the East Midlands and didn't get a huge amount of overt racism. There was a kid at school (whose dad was a copper, naturally) who was always telling racist jokes. One girl told her "my dad hates P***s but you're okay". Some of the teachers made the odd comment. People said her house smelled. They were not good times and I am glad that we have made progress. Growing up in a multi racial London borough, I don't think our kids have even heard the P-word. But prejudice is still out there, often more covert and subtle. When Rafiq spoke about not wanting to believe that things that were happening to him were because of his race or religion, because once he did he'd never be able to stop thinking it, it struck a chord with me. Because I've heard my wife say exactly the same thing.
Looks as if the NI protocol discussions are warming and let's hope for everyone's sake a deal is concluded and hopefully commence a period of more cooperation between UK - EU
Seems like the U.K. has talked it’s toughest game, realised the EU won’t go much further, and thus decided not to pull the trigger.
Let’s see what the revised arrangements are.
The NIP as it was operating was a bloody disaster.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
I fear it's the mists of time. I doubt there was a school anywhere 40 years ago where bullying of sorts didn't exist. Particularly if you include name calling which is what to days episode is all about.
People still think this is about name calling? It is about filtering out a groups participation in a sport from 30% recreational level to 4% at professional level. It is about forcing teenagers to drink alcohol against their will, about literally pissing on them on hotel balconies, avoiding promoting them to senior teams not for sporting ability but based on how "clubbable" they are.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
If you don't remember bullying, then you were probably the bully.
I would guess more likely the bullies enabler. Presumably the bullies do remember.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
I don't remember much anti-black racism at my South London secondary school. Whether this was because the black kids knew their history about Malcolm X and Marcus Garvey I cannot be sure. Loads of Irish "jokes" though.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
Round here they voted for jam today and tomorrow as that is what Boris promised.
Now in theory we've got that (as we've got a very big Government department coming) so we are likely to be a fairly unique case (which is a shame as our Tory MP is utterly useless compared to a lot of the new intake) but I'm not sure the other Red Wall seats will be so happy.
What they really want to see is investment in their town and investment in their region and if they see neither they will move to a party that may offer them that.
I am a little further up the A167 from you but I completely echo this. This is exactly what people voted for up here too.
I have said it before to my Brexiteer mates who live in the South, who thought no deal was great and sovereignty the be all and end all. People voted Brexit to improve their lives and their communities and if that does not happen for the Tories there will be a heavy price to pay and a fair bit of anger.
I get confused between you and Cookie for rather complicated reasons to do with your avatars.
This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.
In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.
* In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.
But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.
BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.
Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.
In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?
Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.
We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)
This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
Not when it is a racist whistleblower, all he has done is start a woke racisthunt. English cricket is f***ed, the do gooders will all be trying to outdo each other in the racist hunting. Who will be the racist finder General appointed to clear out the stables. There will be a few nice sinecures for some yahoos for sure.
That’s what it’s about, or in part, people and organisations to come in to look at and manage the issue and be handsomely remunerated for it.
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
As @Cyclefree keeps on pointing out, there is a real need for external auditors to come in a fix the stupidly toxic cultures in various large organisations.
Confusing this with bullshit seminars on "Bad Facts" is a problem. People schedule the bullshit seminars and pat themselves on the back. Since Constable Savage got 100% on the test (online, 10 questions, multiple choice, unlimited repeats).
I disagree. External auditors cannot 'fix' toxic cultures. At best, they can identify toxic cultures exist and where the problems lie. It is up to the organisation to fix itself.
I would respectfully suggest that a number of organisations - such at the Met Police - have proven that they can't fix themselves internally.
External intervention is the only way forward, apart from burring the whole thing down and starting again.
Looks as if the NI protocol discussions are warming and let's hope for everyone's sake a deal is concluded and hopefully commence a period of more cooperation between UK - EU
Seems like the U.K. has talked it’s toughest game, realised the EU won’t go much further, and thus decided not to pull the trigger.
Let’s see what the revised arrangements are.
The NIP as it was operating was a bloody disaster.
My fervent hope is an agreement is reached and it heralds a better working relationship
The UK is not going to rejoin and so it is in everyone's interests to move on from the bitterness
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I would disagree with that - opinion polls showed that the desire for a referendum was growing over time.
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Slight problem with your arguments
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
Nerys' central points still remain namely (1) SKS is a hypocrite and has been found out (another one who forgets his tweets) and (2) plenty of people on here were saying HS2 was a waste but now seem to be fervent backers given it can be used to bash BJ
On 1) what SKS says about the mess at Euston is actually true, but because of previous decisions it's completely unavoidable as no other location exists that doesn't have bigger issues (Paddington Basin I'm looking at you). As the local MP that mess trumps everything, as a national leader the viewpoint shifts towards the benefits for 20 million outweighs the pain for 100,000.
2) Let me give you an opposite viewpoint (which has been mine for as least as long as I've been on this site).
Hs2 was a great idea, but in it's new form is a waste of money and work should be stopped immediately.
Let me give you the middle viewpoint. The previous full HS2 plan and the new "no money for plebs" plan are so far off into the future that we simply don't know what will happen. As the first phase of HS2 is already under construction it would be madness to cancel it now.
What is critical is that future connections are provisioned. Build Euston annd Curzon Street large enough to handle future service provisions. Allow for future junctions to additional phases. The risk is that we end up with it dumping traffic straight out onto the Trent Valley and the rest gets canned, which would be monumentally stupid.
Incidentally, one case I remember, from middle school. I was with my mum in the car park in town, when a boy threw bacon at our car windscreen (parked). It always seemed odd to me in those innocent days - why bacon? But we were known to be well-off, and I now wonder if it was some sort of weird and ill-targeted anti-Semitic thing.
I can't ask that lad, as I believe he got wiped out with two other lads in a stolen car on the A50. Sadly, they took out an elderly couple in another car as well.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
I fear it's the mists of time. I doubt there was a school anywhere 40 years ago where bullying of sorts didn't exist. Particularly if you include name calling which is what to days episode is all about.
People still think this is about name calling? It is about filtering out a groups participation in a sport from 30% recreational level to 4% at professional level. It is about forcing teenagers to drink alcohol against their will, about literally pissing on them on hotel balconies, avoiding promoting them to senior teams not for sporting ability but based on how "clubbable" they are.
I can affirm that bullying was rife in both my junior and grammar schools in the 1950's with actual beatings in some cases and nothing was done, indeed it seemed to be accepted as part of school life
Thing is, if Rafiq can say and apologise for racist comments and is deemed a thoroughly good bloke (which it seems he is), then people will debate, as we are doing here, the "harmless" playground name calling - ginger, skinny, jew, p****, etc.
But folded into that harmless name calling is toxic racist abuse and the danger is that toxic racist abuse and discrimination is deemed to be something that "everyone does" even those blowing the whistle on toxic racist abuse and discrimination and thereby people are less troubled by it.
At my school I think casual homophobia was far more common than casual racism. Anything uncool was "gay".
At my Grammar School in the late 1970s, there was one black boy, he was referred to as "Diddy Amin".Oh, and it wasn't just the other students who indulged.
A little bit of sign of the times fun, or unacceptable casual institutional racism?
Although you do have a point about the homophobia, which was relentless, irrespective of whether the recipient was gay, straight or indifferent.
I experienced casual anti semitism at school including holocaust references etc. Kids will be kids…
There was a German boy at the school I went to. He had to put up with references to Germany in WW2 for his entire time there including from his good friends. From my recollection (30 years ago now) it was all good natured but looking back it must have been difficult for him. Kids being kids.
From my time at school I never remember bullying or abuse about peers’ skin colour or ethnicity however if you were German/French (not so much other Europeans for some reason) you got teased/grief and if you were ginger it must have been hell. Kids are generally horrid!!
My brother had an Argentinian friend at school. In 1982. From what I was told, the school made it very clear that any bullying of him was unacceptable. Given the other bullying that was apparently going on at the time, it seems an odd exception ...
I can't think of any protected characteristic which did not attract bullying at my school (except sex, and that only because nobody was overtly female/trans)
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
If you don't remember bullying, then you were probably the bully.
I would guess more likely the bullies enabler. Presumably the bullies do remember.
One school bully I recall, stated later that it was all "in a good heart" aka.... banter, I believe.
This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.
In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.
* In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.
But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.
BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.
Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.
In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?
Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.
We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)
This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
Not when it is a racist whistleblower, all he has done is start a woke racisthunt. English cricket is f***ed, the do gooders will all be trying to outdo each other in the racist hunting. Who will be the racist finder General appointed to clear out the stables. There will be a few nice sinecures for some yahoos for sure.
That’s what it’s about, or in part, people and organisations to come in to look at and manage the issue and be handsomely remunerated for it.
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
As @Cyclefree keeps on pointing out, there is a real need for external auditors to come in a fix the stupidly toxic cultures in various large organisations.
Confusing this with bullshit seminars on "Bad Facts" is a problem. People schedule the bullshit seminars and pat themselves on the back. Since Constable Savage got 100% on the test (online, 10 questions, multiple choice, unlimited repeats).
I disagree. External auditors cannot 'fix' toxic cultures. At best, they can identify toxic cultures exist and where the problems lie. It is up to the organisation to fix itself.
I would respectfully suggest that a number of organisations - such at the Met Police - have proven that they can't fix themselves internally.
External intervention is the only way forward, apart from burring the whole thing down and starting again.
I understand that - but how does an external organisation fix it without making itself the company's leadership - essentially the same as burning the whole thing down and starting again?
No bullying at all at my (international, though mostly American) schools. At a British school that I attended early on, though, there was quite a lot. We've debated it here before, when I suggested it was a specifically British problem, and someone pointed out reports of bullying in Danish and German schools. So I dunno. Perhaps it's the broken window thing - if kids see bullying being tolerated, they join in?
If you think there is no bullying in American schools then I’ve a bridge to sell you. Seriously?
Bullying will surely be present at all schools of normal size anywhere. Not everyone will notice or remember it though, and of course where the schools have good policies to manage it then it may not be significant. It won't always be based on prejudices, other trivial reasons can lead to kids being picked on.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
Not arguing that bullying doesn't happen in American schools, but there wasn't any in mine (and I remember the bullying at the earlier British school very clearly so it's not really the mists of time). It's a sample of 3, so not significant, except to say that it's not inevitable.
I have a cleft palate, and I remember one kid asking in the spirit of evident curiosity what it's like. He was immediately told off by one of the others - "it must be difficult, you shouldn't talk about it". He apologised and I reassured them both that it was fine. But the incident was typical - basically both kids being instinctively nice. It's too pessimistic to assume that's not normal.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I would disagree with that - opinion polls showed that the desire for a referendum was growing over time.
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
My issue is with the form of the referendum rather than the timing per se.
It was gross complacency by Cameron, and a dereliction of duty by the civil service, to set up a single “in” or “out” vote.
Compare with the way NZ voted for a new electoral system.
Vote 1. Which of these new electoral systems do you prefer? Vote 2. Shall we move to that preferred system, or keep our old one?
Cameron thought presumably that voters would be wary of voting for the “unknown”, whereas instead Brexit was enabled to mean all things to all men.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I would disagree with that - opinion polls showed that the desire for a referendum was growing over time.
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
My issue is with the form of the referendum rather than the timing per se.
It was gross complacency by Cameron, and a dereliction of duty by the civil service, to set up a single “in” or “out” vote.
Compare with the way NZ voted for a new electoral system.
Vote 1. Which of these new electoral systems do you prefer? Vote 2. Shall we move to that preferred system, or keep our old one?
Cameron thought presumably that voters would be wary of voting for the “unknown”, whereas instead Brexit was enabled to mean all things to all men.
I think Cameron expected to win and the remain camp had a catastrophic campaign
It is not just Cameron's fault it was lost it was all those alongside him and Obama's back of the queue comment was terrible
So what do you think that about the fact that SKS voted against HS2 ?
Lets reverse it - what do YOU think we should think? Or better still what do you think red wall voters should think?
I'll give you a clue - this doesn't get Boris and the Tories off the hook.
Im not a politician and I don't really know enough about HS2 , but when a senior politician says "I speak to each and every one of my constituents in saying I will stand with them and fight with them over the wholly unacceptable damage that HS2 will bring to our communities." and then tries to score political points but stating that he would fully implement HS2, hypocrisy comes to mind. If HS2 was that terrible in 2016, surely it still is now.
My main recollection of HS2 is reading post after post on here over the past few years from all sides saying what a complete waste of money HS2 is and how it will not work. Now the Government have taken a bit of it away to spend the money on other local lines, that is now a terrible thing.
I think the poll showing only 28% of people disapproving of the Government action shows that HS2 is not as universally popular as HS2 has become on this site since the Government decided to remove a bit of it.
Slight problem with your arguments
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
Nerys' central points still remain namely (1) SKS is a hypocrite and has been found out (another one who forgets his tweets) and (2) plenty of people on here were saying HS2 was a waste but now seem to be fervent backers given it can be used to bash BJ
On 1) what SKS says about the mess at Euston is actually true, but because of previous decisions it's completely unavoidable as no other location exists that doesn't have bigger issues (Paddington Basin I'm looking at you). As the local MP that mess trumps everything, as a national leader the viewpoint shifts towards the benefits for 20 million outweighs the pain for 100,000.
2) Let me give you an opposite viewpoint (which has been mine for as least as long as I've been on this site).
Hs2 was a great idea, but in it's new form is a waste of money and work should be stopped immediately.
Let me give you the middle viewpoint. The previous full HS2 plan and the new "no money for plebs" plan are so far off into the future that we simply don't know what will happen. As the first phase of HS2 is already under construction it would be madness to cancel it now.
What is critical is that future connections are provisioned. Build Euston annd Curzon Street large enough to handle future service provisions. Allow for future junctions to additional phases. The risk is that we end up with it dumping traffic straight out onto the Trent Valley and the rest gets canned, which would be monumentally stupid.
That latter point is why I actually think it's better to stop it now for the sake of the Buckinghamshire seats that are now highly plausible Lib Dem targets.
The actual problem is that an awful lot of the projects, as we both know, only really work if all parts are built.
Leeds station needs to be rebuilt but you can't do so without HS2, yet the station improvements contained within the HS2 project are still being used everywhere although the cost of that work has been ignored.
Not arguing that bullying doesn't happen in American schools, but there wasn't any in mine (and I remember the bullying at the earlier British school very clearly so it's not really the mists of time). It's a sample of 3, so not significant, except to say that it's not inevitable.
I have a cleft palate, and I remember one kid asking in the spirit of evident curiosity what it's like. He was immediately told off by one of the others - "it must be difficult, you shouldn't talk about it". He apologised and I reassured them both that it was fine. But the incident was typical - basically both kids being instinctively nice. It's too pessimistic to assume that's not normal.
If I might say, an "international school" might be populated by enlightened children of enlightened (certainly, er, international, well off, worldly, well-read perhaps) parents and hence my guess is that there might easily have been less bullying where you were.
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I would disagree with that - opinion polls showed that the desire for a referendum was growing over time.
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
My issue is with the form of the referendum rather than the timing per se.
It was gross complacency by Cameron, and a dereliction of duty by the civil service, to set up a single “in” or “out” vote.
Compare with the way NZ voted for a new electoral system.
Vote 1. Which of these new electoral systems do you prefer? Vote 2. Shall we move to that preferred system, or keep our old one?
Cameron thought presumably that voters would be wary of voting for the “unknown”, whereas instead Brexit was enabled to mean all things to all men.
I think Cameron expected to win and the remain camp had a catastrophic campaign
It is not just Cameron's fault it was lost it was all those alongside him and Obama's back of the queue comment was terrible
Oh it was completely Cameron's fault for multiple reasons.
The vote was the EU as it was or Brexit, it was whatever Cameron had negotiated but couldn't explain or Brexit.
Also voters want hope and Brexit (as @Taz pointed out below) offered people a chance of hope (albeit one your typical remainer still cannot understand) and Remain offered nothing but more of the same (which for a lot of Brexiters meant more kicks while you are on the ground).
Looks as if the NI protocol discussions are warming and let's hope for everyone's sake a deal is concluded and hopefully commence a period of more cooperation between UK - EU
Seems like the U.K. has talked it’s toughest game, realised the EU won’t go much further, and thus decided not to pull the trigger.
Let’s see what the revised arrangements are.
The NIP as it was operating was a bloody disaster.
My fervent hope is an agreement is reached and it heralds a better working relationship
The UK is not going to rejoin and so it is in everyone's interests to move on from the bitterness
What seems to being forgotten, or ignored (IMHO anyway!) is that Boris desperately needs a win, even if only in a sham fight. So he and Frost will talk very tough, make all sorts of threats and then when the EU has conceded some minor point crow about 'victory' over the brutal enemy. Which line the Telegraph and Express will swallow whole, and which the BBC and the Mail will spend quite a lot of supportive time on.
At my school I think casual homophobia was far more common than casual racism. Anything uncool was "gay".
At my Grammar School in the late 1970s, there was one black boy, he was referred to as "Diddy Amin".Oh, and it wasn't just the other students who indulged.
A little bit of sign of the times fun, or unacceptable casual institutional racism?
Although you do have a point about the homophobia, which was relentless, irrespective of whether the recipient was gay, straight or indifferent.
1980s comp and yes the homophobic language was almost universally used and without an understanding of it being hurtful, whereas the racist language was used by a smallish minority who understood it was othering. Probably partly because we did not know anyone who was openly gay. We even thought George Michael was a ladies man.....
That's good politics but would they, given he has been a passionate campaigner against it previously.
Maybe he changed his mind.
Or maybe it is political expediency and his mind will change again if he gains power.
To be honest with you, Keir needs to work to be a bit more politically expedient.
I think this is politically expedient - your typical Labour voter is going to be favour of more trains and proper investment.
I actually don’t know.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
I disagree, they were sold a vision of leaving the EU as being one that would benefit their communities and their prosperity.
The remain camp offered more of the same.
I would suggest that, while the Remain camp thought they were offering more of the same, their message came out as "you'll be punished".
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
Yes, it was idiotic. I voted remain as the least worst option but I thought long and hard about it. Brexit was in part about a vote against the establishment. It was madness for the establishment to take that line. IT reinforced a fair few of the messages of the leave camp.
I guess I’ll agree.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Yes, a weak PM who promised a referendum as a knee jerk reply to mid term blues in the polls. An issue very few people cared either way about until the referendum,
I would disagree with that - opinion polls showed that the desire for a referendum was growing over time.
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
My issue is with the form of the referendum rather than the timing per se.
It was gross complacency by Cameron, and a dereliction of duty by the civil service, to set up a single “in” or “out” vote.
Compare with the way NZ voted for a new electoral system.
Vote 1. Which of these new electoral systems do you prefer? Vote 2. Shall we move to that preferred system, or keep our old one?
Cameron thought presumably that voters would be wary of voting for the “unknown”, whereas instead Brexit was enabled to mean all things to all men.
I think Cameron expected to win and the remain camp had a catastrophic campaign
It is not just Cameron's fault it was lost it was all those alongside him and Obama's back of the queue comment was terrible
Leavers and Remainers need to stop fighting the old war. It's just displacement activity for the far more difficult tasks the two camps should be engaged in. Leavers need to focus on making Brexit work, delivering the broad sunlit uplands that they promised. And Remainers need to be making the case for getting back into the EU, if leaving was the disaster that they think it is. The argument about Europe is dead. Long live the argument about Europe!
BREAK: 🇦🇹Austria will enter a fourth nationwide lockdown from Monday for twenty days, and impose compulsory vaccination from February, as a surge in #coronavirus cases threatens to overwhelm hospitals (via Bloomberg) https://twitter.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1461628726777683972
Forget about the lockdown, what about the compulsory vaccinations? That is quite some step! How are they going to force people?
BREAK: 🇦🇹Austria will enter a fourth nationwide lockdown from Monday for twenty days, and impose compulsory vaccination from February, as a surge in #coronavirus cases threatens to overwhelm hospitals (via Bloomberg) https://twitter.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1461628726777683972
Forget about the lockdown, what about the compulsory vaccinations? That is quite some step! How are they going to force people?
As for the EU Ref it is testament to the success of Nigel Farage and UKIP, as one of the most successful politicians and pressure groups of recent times.
There were millions of people who wanted an EU Ref (actually they wanted to leave the EU of course) and NFarage organised them to put pressure on to the government to include their demands in the manifesto. Had they not done so the Cons would easily have lost the election.
Exactly how (grass roots, or indeed any) politics is supposed to work.
Incidentally, one case I remember, from middle school. I was with my mum in the car park in town, when a boy threw bacon at our car windscreen (parked). It always seemed odd to me in those innocent days - why bacon? But we were known to be well-off, and I now wonder if it was some sort of weird and ill-targeted anti-Semitic thing.
I can't ask that lad, as I believe he got wiped out with two other lads in a stolen car on the A50. Sadly, they took out an elderly couple in another car as well.
Would not have been so bad if it was still in the wrapper and you could have had a nice bacon roll on them.
At my school I think casual homophobia was far more common than casual racism. Anything uncool was "gay".
At my Grammar School in the late 1970s, there was one black boy, he was referred to as "Diddy Amin".Oh, and it wasn't just the other students who indulged.
A little bit of sign of the times fun, or unacceptable casual institutional racism?
Although you do have a point about the homophobia, which was relentless, irrespective of whether the recipient was gay, straight or indifferent.
Think of the TV programmes in the 70's etc, when you see clips from them now you can hardly believe it and it was just normal then.
At my school I think casual homophobia was far more common than casual racism. Anything uncool was "gay".
At my Grammar School in the late 1970s, there was one black boy, he was referred to as "Diddy Amin".Oh, and it wasn't just the other students who indulged.
A little bit of sign of the times fun, or unacceptable casual institutional racism?
Although you do have a point about the homophobia, which was relentless, irrespective of whether the recipient was gay, straight or indifferent.
1980s comp and yes the homophobic language was almost universally used and without an understanding of it being hurtful, whereas the racist language was used by a smallish minority who understood it was othering. Probably partly because we did not know anyone who was openly gay. We even thought George Michael was a ladies man.....
Austin Powers: Yeah, and I can't believe Liberace was gay. I mean, women loved him! I didn't see that one coming.
A perfect shot, because it was so true to the times....
Got to love the way those who jumped on the Rafiq bus are convinced to stay on board ‘because his apology was so good’!!! Conveniently easily pleased on that score
The 2016 referendum has no more ended debate on Europe than the 1975 referendum. This will carry on for decades. It will swing back and forth over the years.
Right now the onus is on those in positions of power to build bridges. That means a more sophisticated approach than saying "we won, we can do what we like, tough", which doesn't really do anything to win hearts or minds.
There’s a cartoon joke doing the rounds online that goes thus: “How many Boris Johnson fans does it take to change a lightbulb? None. He’ll just tell them he’s changed it and then sit around in the dark applauding.”
He has now been prime minister for two and a half years, half a full term, and there exists no sign that this plan, if it can be called that, of government by saying and not by doing, is going to abate.
The 2016 referendum has no more ended debate on Europe than the 1975 referendum. This will carry on for decades. It will swing back and forth over the years.
Right now the onus is on those in positions of power to build bridges. That means a more sophisticated approach than saying "we won, we can do what we like, tough", which doesn't really do anything to win hearts or minds.
Might not be so bad if Leavers, having 'won' had any sensible ideas about how to implement their 'victory'. So far as I can see my life, any rate, has been made more difficult.
Got to love the way those who jumped on the Rafiq bus are convinced to stay on board ‘because his apology was so good’!!! Conveniently easily pleased on that score
I think that he has demonstrated that
- There is a massive problem in cricket. - He is a small part of the problem.
Cricket still needs fixing. Add Rafiq to the list of things to fix....
Got to love the way those who jumped on the Rafiq bus are convinced to stay on board ‘because his apology was so good’!!! Conveniently easily pleased on that score
I think that he has demonstrated that
- There is a massive problem in cricket. - He is a small part of the problem.
Cricket still needs fixing. Add Rafiq to the list of things to fix....
Not sure that there's a 'massive' problem. There are some silly juvenile 'jokers' and one or two older people who are still living in a 1930's mindset but most people have moved on.
If Hartlepool does turn out to be "peak Boris" perhaps he will retire there. He'll become a popular feature by the marina, wrapped in a blanket as Carrie pushes him in his chair, his thinning mop of blonde hair tousled by the stiff North Sea breeze. "I levelled all of this up," he will say, to everyone and no one. "I got Brexit done." "Of course you did, dear," Carrie will say, wiping the soup stain on his lapel with her hankie as the wind turns colder and she trundles him back to the home.
"Azeem Rafiq, the Yorkshire offspinner, has been suspended from all cricket for one month and ordered to pay costs of £500 after being found guilty of two breaches of the ECB Directive following his foul-mouthed Twitter attack on the England Under-19 coach John Abraham.
Rafiq, who captained England to a 199-run defeat in the first Test against Sri Lanka U19s, reacted to his omission from the second match at Scarborough (which England won) by firing a scathing attack on Abraham via Twitter, which read: "What a f***ing farsee ... John Abrahams is a useless ****... ECB prove it again what incompetent people are working for them!!"
And he hadn't finished there when he added: "John Abrahams is a useless w****r.""
I guess a "farsee" is a misspelt "farce", and not some racial slur I've never heard?
If this was how the guy behaved when he'd made it into the England set up, was his lack of further progression primarily down to cricket's institutional racism or was it down to his own dickishness?
If Hartlepool does turn out to be "peak Boris" perhaps he will retire there. He'll become a popular feature by the marina, wrapped in a blanket as Carrie pushes him in his chair, his thinning mop of blonde hair tousled by the stiff North Sea breeze. "I levelled all of this up," he will say, to everyone and no one. "I got Brexit done." "Of course you did, dear," Carrie will say, wiping the soup stain on his lapel with her hankie as the wind turns colder and she trundles him back to the home.
Alternatively, next time it'll be his turn in being dumped?
Got to love the way those who jumped on the Rafiq bus are convinced to stay on board ‘because his apology was so good’!!! Conveniently easily pleased on that score
Its pretty simple. He was racially abused both as a teen and as a man by a succession of YCCC players and officials. If you think we somehow forget all all about it and exonerate them because of one screenshot from when he was a teenager then you obviously don't care about racism.
Miss Livermore, I think Farsi is the Persian/Iranian script.
I thought that, and that the Zoroastrian Persian Mumbai community are the Parsis which is from the same source, but couldn't imagine how it could be linked to John Abraham of England U19s..
There's a Bollywood actor called John Abraham whose mother is a Keralan Parsi, but it can't be that!
Got to love the way those who jumped on the Rafiq bus are convinced to stay on board ‘because his apology was so good’!!! Conveniently easily pleased on that score
Its pretty simple. He was racially abused both as a teen and as a man by a succession of YCCC players and officials. If you think we somehow forget all all about it and exonerate them because of one screenshot from when he was a teenager then you obviously don't care about racism.
Still poetic justice that a racist has been caught out as he complained about being racially abused.
Comments
BTW I’ve knitted those saltire socks you wanted. Where should I send them? My boyfriend said that putting “Biggest Snowflake in Ayrshire” on the package should do the trick.
You are a NIMBY
He is is blocking vital National Infrastructure
There’s a fair amount of grift in the grievance industry.
At least he's not as bad as (most of) the Greens, who spent decades wanting high-speed rail in the UK, and the moment it's proposed they realise there are more votes in being against it...
An honourable exception https://hs2.green/:
See also the mild anti-Scots and anti-Irish stuff you see on here.
Anti-bullying is much more important, in my opinion, than ever extreme attempts to police language.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
Estimates suggest Scotland produced 32,000 gigawatt hours of renewable electricity in 2020, equivalent to around 97% of its entire electricity consumption. But it exports a lot of this, relying on non-renewable electricity sources to make up the difference. The Scottish government estimates that last year 56% of the electricity consumed in Scotland came from renewable sources, 30% from nuclear and 13% from fossil fuels. Renewables account for far more of Scotland’s electricity consumption than in England and Wales - but to suggest it's almost 100% is misleading.
A spokesperson from the Scottish Government told us that the First Minister was referring to Scotland’s gross electricity consumption and it was not her intention to suggest otherwise.
https://mailchi.mp/fullfact/paterson-vote-1058377?e=23c7e8ffc4
One would expect (or maybe hope) the leader of the Labour Party would prioritize the country as a whole. One would also expect that the MP for Camden would seek to stand up for his constituents.
I suspect a lot of the red wall gone Tory types are actually anti anything. They vote against their own economic interests.
1) the blight remains because the land hasn't been released because it will be needed in the future
2) HS2 has continually been sold on speed but that isn't the purpose of the project. HS2 is about capacity and that capacity has multiply effects.
The problem the Government now has is that its promised both faster services and more local services on lines that are already running at and beyond capacity. But that really isn't possible as running different speeds on a track reduces the capacity of the line from say 15 trains an hour to say 12 and the greater the difference the wider the gaps need to be so those 12 trains are likely to become 10.
Worse the entire plan is based on a report that isn't grounded in reality - it promises improvements and extra tracks on the route from Leeds to Manchester, which given that houses (and now flats) are often sat along the track isn't the cheaper, quicker solution the Government thinks it is.
https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1461620341306974213
The remain camp offered more of the same.
Confusing this with bullshit seminars on "Bad Facts" is a problem. People schedule the bullshit seminars and pat themselves on the back. Since Constable Savage got 100% on the test (online, 10 questions, multiple choice, unlimited repeats).
3.48 We will look at the most effective way to run HS2 trains to Leeds and start work on the new West Yorkshire Mass Transit System
3.49 This work will inform decisions about future-proofing to be reflected in the hybrid Bill design for the East Midlands high speed line (if necessary, during its passage) to minimise the risk of costly changes later; and on safeguarding of the current route. However, pending conclusion of the work set out above, the Government does not intend to lift safeguarding on the previously proposed HS2 route at this time. Safeguarding Directions are kept under review and updated periodically to reflect the latest route design, and keeping the current provisions in place this will ensure that affected residential property owners retain access to the various support schemes.
It would appear that the planning 'blight' is likely to continue.
Now in theory we've got that (as we've got a very big Government department coming) so we are likely to be a fairly unique case (which is a shame as our Tory MP is utterly useless compared to a lot of the new intake) but I'm not sure the other Red Wall seats will be so happy.
What they really want to see is investment in their town and investment in their region and if they see neither they will move to a party that may offer them that.
As a Retainer, it was the most stupid messaging in a political campaign before Mrs May had a go at general elections.
But it was fairly easy to ignore or turn a blind eye to the bullying. Bullies soon learn who, when and where to bully.
Fortunately, I wasn't much of a target. Perhaps because I had an obvious physical injury, which made me too 'soft' a target. Or the fact I was tall. Or the fact I hung around in the computer lab rather than the sports hall. Or the fact I had massive wooden crutches that I could swing at someone ...
And there are also lots of explanations: 'lab leak', for example, could include a worker bit by a bat who passed the disease onto others without ever knowing he was patient zero.
2) Let me give you an opposite viewpoint (which has been mine for as least as long as I've been on this site).
Hs2 was a great idea, but in it's new form is a waste of money and work should be stopped immediately.
I voted Remain for pragmatic, rather than ideological reasons. And expecting a massive majority for out in a latter referendum - triggered by the EU expanded its competencies into health.
I have said it before to my Brexiteer mates who live in the South, who thought no deal was great and sovereignty the be all and end all. People voted Brexit to improve their lives and their communities and if that does not happen for the Tories there will be a heavy price to pay and a fair bit of anger.
But the punishment is happening, more or less, so it wasn’t a false prospectus.
My main takeaway is that the whole referendum was a sham. I was always in favour of a referendum on Europe —- but not like that.
Cameron is ultimately to blame.
Is the latter "bullying"? Not sure. It is certainly discrimination and the context matters: playground, workplace, Yorkshire County Cricket Club, etc.
My wife (who is Asian) grew up in a more middle class area of the East Midlands and didn't get a huge amount of overt racism. There was a kid at school (whose dad was a copper, naturally) who was always telling racist jokes. One girl told her "my dad hates P***s but you're okay". Some of the teachers made the odd comment. People said her house smelled.
They were not good times and I am glad that we have made progress. Growing up in a multi racial London borough, I don't think our kids have even heard the P-word. But prejudice is still out there, often more covert and subtle. When Rafiq spoke about not wanting to believe that things that were happening to him were because of his race or religion, because once he did he'd never be able to stop thinking it, it struck a chord with me. Because I've heard my wife say exactly the same thing.
Let’s see what the revised arrangements are.
The NIP as it was operating was a bloody disaster.
The violence was pretty indiscriminate.
I think he is in Wigan. Where are you based?
External intervention is the only way forward, apart from burring the whole thing down and starting again.
The UK is not going to rejoin and so it is in everyone's interests to move on from the bitterness
The most intelligent thing to have done, would have been to have a referendum as early as possible and run a positive campaign.
At the start of the coalition government, this would have been 65% In, 35% out. Which would have killed the whole issue dead - "You've had the promised vote. Answer found and accepted...."
What is critical is that future connections are provisioned. Build Euston annd Curzon Street large enough to handle future service provisions. Allow for future junctions to additional phases. The risk is that we end up with it dumping traffic straight out onto the Trent Valley and the rest gets canned, which would be monumentally stupid.
I can't ask that lad, as I believe he got wiped out with two other lads in a stolen car on the A50. Sadly, they took out an elderly couple in another car as well.
But folded into that harmless name calling is toxic racist abuse and the danger is that toxic racist abuse and discrimination is deemed to be something that "everyone does" even those blowing the whistle on toxic racist abuse and discrimination and thereby people are less troubled by it.
"Keep on rockin' in the free World" At my Grammar School in the late 1970s, there was one black boy, he was referred to as "Diddy Amin".Oh, and it wasn't just the other students who indulged.
A little bit of sign of the times fun, or unacceptable casual institutional racism?
Although you do have a point about the homophobia, which was relentless, irrespective of whether the recipient was gay, straight or indifferent.
But groups of kids going from 5-16 or longer without ever seeing any bullying? I struggle to believe that.
Not arguing that bullying doesn't happen in American schools, but there wasn't any in mine (and I remember the bullying at the earlier British school very clearly so it's not really the mists of time). It's a sample of 3, so not significant, except to say that it's not inevitable.
I have a cleft palate, and I remember one kid asking in the spirit of evident curiosity what it's like. He was immediately told off by one of the others - "it must be difficult, you shouldn't talk about it". He apologised and I reassured them both that it was fine. But the incident was typical - basically both kids being instinctively nice. It's too pessimistic to assume that's not normal.
It was gross complacency by Cameron, and a dereliction of duty by the civil service, to set up a single “in” or “out” vote.
Compare with the way NZ voted for a new electoral system.
Vote 1. Which of these new electoral systems do you prefer?
Vote 2. Shall we move to that preferred system, or keep our old one?
Cameron thought presumably that voters would be wary of voting for the “unknown”, whereas instead Brexit was enabled to mean all things to all men.
It is not just Cameron's fault it was lost it was all those alongside him and Obama's back of the queue comment was terrible
The actual problem is that an awful lot of the projects, as we both know, only really work if all parts are built.
Leeds station needs to be rebuilt but you can't do so without HS2, yet the station improvements contained within the HS2 project are still being used everywhere although the cost of that work has been ignored.
The vote was the EU as it was or Brexit, it was whatever Cameron had negotiated but couldn't explain or Brexit.
Also voters want hope and Brexit (as @Taz pointed out below) offered people a chance of hope (albeit one your typical remainer still cannot understand) and Remain offered nothing but more of the same (which for a lot of Brexiters meant more kicks while you are on the ground).
Which line the Telegraph and Express will swallow whole, and which the BBC and the Mail will spend quite a lot of supportive time on.
The argument about Europe is dead. Long live the argument about Europe!
https://twitter.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1461628726777683972
Forget about the lockdown, what about the compulsory vaccinations? That is quite some step! How are they going to force people?
There were millions of people who wanted an EU Ref (actually they wanted to leave the EU of course) and NFarage organised them to put pressure on to the government to include their demands in the manifesto. Had they not done so the Cons would easily have lost the election.
Exactly how (grass roots, or indeed any) politics is supposed to work.
How did they compare to those you saw on Grange Hill .
Gripper Stebson was perhaps the best/worst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9pc5_slCFo
A perfect shot, because it was so true to the times....
Right now the onus is on those in positions of power to build bridges. That means a more sophisticated approach than saying "we won, we can do what we like, tough", which doesn't really do anything to win hearts or minds.
He has now been prime minister for two and a half years, half a full term, and there exists no sign that this plan, if it can be called that, of government by saying and not by doing, is going to abate.
So far as I can see my life, any rate, has been made more difficult.
- There is a massive problem in cricket.
- He is a small part of the problem.
Cricket still needs fixing. Add Rafiq to the list of things to fix....
"I levelled all of this up," he will say, to everyone and no one. "I got Brexit done."
"Of course you did, dear," Carrie will say, wiping the soup stain on his lapel with her hankie as the wind turns colder and she trundles him back to the home.
"Azeem Rafiq, the Yorkshire offspinner, has been suspended from all cricket for one month and ordered to pay costs of £500 after being found guilty of two breaches of the ECB Directive following his foul-mouthed Twitter attack on the England Under-19 coach John Abraham.
Rafiq, who captained England to a 199-run defeat in the first Test against Sri Lanka U19s, reacted to his omission from the second match at Scarborough (which England won) by firing a scathing attack on Abraham via Twitter, which read: "What a f***ing farsee ... John Abrahams is a useless ****... ECB prove it again what incompetent people are working for them!!"
And he hadn't finished there when he added: "John Abrahams is a useless w****r.""
I guess a "farsee" is a misspelt "farce", and not some racial slur I've never heard?
If this was how the guy behaved when he'd made it into the England set up, was his lack of further progression primarily down to cricket's institutional racism or was it down to his own dickishness?
There's a Bollywood actor called John Abraham whose mother is a Keralan Parsi, but it can't be that!