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EX-PBER DAVID HERDSON JOINS THE YORKSHIRE PARTY – politicalbetting.com

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Anyway, who needs trains when there are lovely new offences to be introduced.

    This is government for the very elderly.

    If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.


    Totally agree. For many people (myself included) dogs are an integral part of our family and too many have been stolen, causing immense heartache. Criminals were undeterred because the penalties were a joke. Not now.
    We already had such an offence. It’s called “Theft” and carries a maximum sentence of 7 years.

    Most of the time we don’t need populist new laws, we just need to enforce the existing ones.
    Except that the Police treated the theft of a dog like stealing a mobile. Basically irrelevant and not worth the effort. Introducing the new offence changes the priority for the Police.

    But I take it on your logic that you are against the whole concept of "hate crimes" given they are already covered by existing offences?
    The priority of the Police (and their resources) can be changed without introducing pointless new offences which just repeat what we already have.

    Less, higher quality laws are better than more laws.
    And the question about hate crimes? Do you agree that, on your logic, we shouldn't have the category of hate crimes?
    I am not against sentencing guidelines imposing harsher sentences if offences are racially etc motivated but neither am I particularly for it either, if that’s what you mean.
    But, as you argued with the laws against dog-napping, fewer higher quality laws are what we need so why do we differentiate because different types of the same crime, especially as it means Police are pressurised to investigate one type of the same crime over another.
    Do you have a particular offence in mind?
    This:

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

    And particularly this:

    "These crimes are covered by legislation (Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and section 66 of the Sentencing Act 2020) which allows prosecutors to apply for an uplift in sentence for those convicted of a hate crime."

    We have the case where the law treats one type of the same offence as more serious than another.

    But I am assuming you agree that legislation should be repealed?
    A sentencing uplift is not the same as a whole new offence. Its a weird how you’ve taken this opportunity to attack the concept of “hate crimes” seemingly out of nowhere.

    We can debate sentencing if you like
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What I find interesting is -

    That many people whose eyes usually glaze over with boredom or who seek to empathize with or find excuses for white men accused of racism/misogyny suddenly, when the racism/misogyny is coming from a Muslim source, leap into action and become absolute IRON.

    Quite the opposite. I think we are all a little bit racist, and this may show when we are young and foolish, AND IT SHOULD BE FORGIVEN

    What I despise - and what makes me angry - is double standards and hypocrisy. Like this guy Rafiq

    When he was accusing every one else of inhuman racism, did he forget that he is also a racist, or did he just hope that no one would notice that he is a racist?
    I'm sorry but I think this is ... to go a bit @IshmaelZ ... bollocks bollocks bollocks.

    Not the points about racism being present in most people and about forgiving youthful misjudgements, both of which I agree with, but what you present as where you're coming from. I think you come from a different place when it comes to Muslims. Quite a jaundiced one. Sorry if that's a misread but there you go.

    Some questions for you anyway. You say you hate Rafiq's hypocrisy. What do you mean by that? That because he was antisemitic back then he should have kept his trap shut now about years of racist bullying in his workplace? Should have just sucked it up?

    And what about his apology? Is that no good at all for you?

    And if you're so keen on cutting slack to a 19 year old for some racist tweets why come straight in with "he's a fucking racist!" - using the present tense and the superstrong racist noun option, plus a 'fucking' for good measure?

    It just doesn't scan. YOU don't scan. Not on this subject anyway.
    Fuck off you old Jew hater. Really. Enough of your cant
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Johnson calls new rail plans "monumental" says BBC News.

    Well, it's a monumental something...

    I'm sure he expects them to be a Titanic success.
    Reminds me of a uni friend who, in some ribald discourse and trying to conjure the powerfulness of a nuclear explosion, ended up claiming to have an atomic dick, and then arguing blind for the next hour that atomic didn't mean that.

    Very much in the vane of that Kendrick Lamar lyric misjudging, possibly intentionally?, the relative sizes of 'Eiffel Tower' and 'Wotld'

  • Speaking of David Herdson's prescience in 2017, by happenstance just took delivery of my copy of "The British General Election of 2017"

    Have just begun dipping into the contents, but plenty of documentation already, that general expectation right up to polling day was for Theresa May's Tories to win a solid if not overwhelming majority.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    Perhaps Starmer should have been more muted in response to the HS2 decision given his past position.

    https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/712691982813028352

    Just voted against HS2 Bill: it is my duty to stand with my constituents facing 20yrs of devastation
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Craswall church under a full moon. Late November dusk in the olchon valley
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Bit depressing on here tonight

    So I will raise the spirits. I am in Herefordshire doing research, and it’s the first time in 3 decades I’ve properly explored the county and town where I grew up

    OMG Herefordshire is exquisite. I had forgotten. Perhaps the loveliest county in England? Certainly the most unspoiled.

    However, everyone knows Herefordshire is gorgeous, they just have to be reminded. What is surprising is the city, Hereford. The scruffy, boozy, likeable Marches town - with edgy bits - that I remember, has been transformed into a chic, posh, prosperous cathedral city with specialist cheese shops and lots of cyclists. Like Winchester or Salisbury or an affluent, historic town in Holland or Bavaria

    It is also spookily quiet. Gone are the gangs of drinkers. Now people eat politely in Korean barbecues.

    Amazing. And definitely a change for the better even if I miss the boisterousness

    Thanks yet again for another report on your travels!

    But why so glum? Heck, just suggested an election that you personally (so to speak) can NOT lose!
    I’m not glum!

    I’ve had a wondrous day tramping the wilds of Herefordshire. Craswall Church under a full moon! It was like a Samuel Palmer painting

    Now I drink Amarone in the 17th century wood paneled rooms of the Green Dragon Hotel, opposite the delicately illuminated medieval Cathedral. Life is sweet
    BTW is it "Her-e-ford" or "Her'ferd"? The latter being what we call the cattle in US.
    Her - eeee - ford
    In US there are several towns named Hereford. Including county seat of Deaf Smith County, Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford,_Texas

    Apparently locals call it "Hur'furd" and call the place
    > Beef Capital of the World;
    > The Town Without a Toothache (because of naturally-occurring fluoride in the water)
    > Most Conservative Town in America (which somehow does NOT compute with above!)
    The Green Party are opposed to fluoridation, as an "assault on civil liberties."
    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/archive/emergencymotions/2.html
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    Speaking of David Herdson's prescience in 2017, by happenstance just took delivery of my copy of "The British General Election of 2017"

    Have just begun dipping into the contents, but plenty of documentation already, that general expectation right up to polling day was for Theresa May's Tories to win a solid if not overwhelming majority.

    There were folk on here predicting 400+ seats for the Tories even on election day.
  • Leon said:

    Craswall church under a full moon. Late November dusk in the olchon valley

    Not far from Capel-y-ffin youth hostel, which I stayed for a couple of nights many many moons ago. :+1:
  • dixiedean said:

    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.

    BBC have wasted an air fare then?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    dixiedean said:

    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.

    BBC have wasted an air fare then?
    Yes. He's too thoughtful and considered for this format.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    dixiedean said:

    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.

    He really knows nothing about the questions being asked. What is the point of having him on?

    Stella is, well, stellar. One of the best and most empathetic speakers in the party. Should be on the front bench.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Long wait for results in the local by-elections tonight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2021
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.

    BBC have wasted an air fare then?
    Yes. He's too thoughtful and considered for this format.
    He is certainly more thoughtful than the SNP drone on the panel.

    Though the former Chief Prosecutor Nazir Afzal is comfortably the most articulate and passionate
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    Craswall church under a full moon. Late November dusk in the olchon valley

    Not far from Capel-y-ffin youth hostel, which I stayed for a couple of nights many many moons ago. :+1:
    A sublime place. Llanthony priory!!! Have you ever stayed there?!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Farooq said:

    Thank goodness the guy who suffered racism is also racist. That's made it all better.

    She’d have turned a blind eye to the anti semitism too. This could unite the Labour Party

    “I'm surprised Yorkshire Cricket Club didn't appoint Shami Chakrabarti to "investigate" the racism at the club.”

    https://twitter.com/exstrategist/status/1460548572655534080?s=21
  • Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jordan Peterson spectacularly uninteresting on QT thus far.

    He really knows nothing about the questions being asked. What is the point of having him on?

    Stella is, well, stellar. One of the best and most empathetic speakers in the party. Should be on the front bench.
    She looks OK :)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    Aren’t you a little surprised that someone so sensitive to racist language that he picked up on it when other people present didn’t hear it, then explained to them how it was so ingrained in their culture that they were tone deaf to it, was so casual about using it himself to degrade others?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    slade said:

    Long wait for results in the local by-elections tonight.

    Roger Bannister is running in Liverpool Kirkdale.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What I find interesting is -

    That many people whose eyes usually glaze over with boredom or who seek to empathize with or find excuses for white men accused of racism/misogyny suddenly, when the racism/misogyny is coming from a Muslim source, leap into action and become absolute IRON.

    Quite the opposite. I think we are all a little bit racist, and this may show when we are young and foolish, AND IT SHOULD BE FORGIVEN

    What I despise - and what makes me angry - is double standards and hypocrisy. Like this guy Rafiq

    When he was accusing every one else of inhuman racism, did he forget that he is also a racist, or did he just hope that no one would notice that he is a racist?
    I'm sorry but I think this is ... to go a bit @IshmaelZ ... bollocks bollocks bollocks.

    Not the points about racism being present in most people and about forgiving youthful misjudgements, both of which I agree with, but what you present as where you're coming from. I think you come from a different place when it comes to Muslims. Quite a jaundiced one. Sorry if that's a misread but there you go.

    Some questions for you anyway. You say you hate Rafiq's hypocrisy. What do you mean by that? That because he was antisemitic back then he should have kept his trap shut now about years of racist bullying in his workplace? Should have just sucked it up?

    And what about his apology? Is that no good at all for you?

    And if you're so keen on cutting slack to a 19 year old for some racist tweets why come straight in with "he's a fucking racist!" - using the present tense and the superstrong racist noun option, plus a 'fucking' for good measure?

    It just doesn't scan. YOU don't scan. Not on this subject anyway.
    Fuck off you old Jew hater. Really. Enough of your cant
    Oh dear oh dear. Cannot handle any scrutiny whatsoever.

    Ok, just get back to your 'high style' wittering about this & that. There's appetite for it, I know, and I don't wish to distract.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    One thing I disagree with directly, one thing by omission.

    The thing I disagree with directly is you still seem to be making a distinction between racism and anti-semitism. What he said was not only anti-Semitic but also racist. Do you accept he made racist comments?

    The omission part is that he criticised others for their forgetfulness and has called for them to be sacked yet he appears he was also (give him the benefit of the doubt) forgetful about his own racist comments. Sure, we can forgive him but he doesn’t seem in too keen a mood to forgive others.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Are the Yorkshire Party the same geezers who wanted to annex Kings Cross and St Pancras as part of an independent Yorkshire within London, along with the width of the track to Sheffield and Leeds? Or was that some other bunch of nutters?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    edited November 2021

    dixiedean said:

    slade said:

    Long wait for results in the local by-elections tonight.

    Roger Bannister is running in Liverpool Kirkdale.
    So we should get the result in under 4 minutes then?
    And we did!
    A Labour hold surprisingly (not).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?

    Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
    Bullying that reduces one groups participation in a sport from something like 30% at recreational level to 3% at professional level clearly has a wider impact than random bullying of an individual.

    Both are equally wrong, but their impact and importance at the societal level is different.
    What you say is right

    But you are misunderstanding my point. If they hadn’t been bullying him about his race it could have been his height or the shape of his ears or anything else. Bullies pick on perceived weaknesses.

    It’s the action, not the intention, that matters
    But only in a racist society is having brown skin perceived as a weakness.
    That's a very sharp point indeed for somebody with Covid. :smile:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    dixiedean said:

    slade said:

    Long wait for results in the local by-elections tonight.

    Roger Bannister is running in Liverpool Kirkdale.
    You’ll be telling me Liz McColgan is in a tight race in Edinburgh North Leith next.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Big Green win in my ward (Binscombe, Waverley) - Green 491 Con 309.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    Aren’t you a little surprised that someone so sensitive to racist language that he picked up on it when other people present didn’t hear it, then explained to them how it was so ingrained in their culture that they were tone deaf to it, was so casual about using it himself to degrade others?
    Not really. What's your point?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Lab hold in South Ribble.
  • Big Green win in my ward (Binscombe, Waverley) - Green 491 Con 309.

    Do you know previous result?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Anyway, who needs trains when there are lovely new offences to be introduced.

    This is government for the very elderly.

    If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.


    Totally agree. For many people (myself included) dogs are an integral part of our family and too many have been stolen, causing immense heartache. Criminals were undeterred because the penalties were a joke. Not now.
    We already had such an offence. It’s called “Theft” and carries a maximum sentence of 7 years.

    Most of the time we don’t need populist new laws, we just need to enforce the existing ones.
    Except that the Police treated the theft of a dog like stealing a mobile. Basically irrelevant and not worth the effort. Introducing the new offence changes the priority for the Police.

    But I take it on your logic that you are against the whole concept of "hate crimes" given they are already covered by existing offences?
    The priority of the Police (and their resources) can be changed without introducing pointless new offences which just repeat what we already have.

    Less, higher quality laws are better than more laws.
    And the question about hate crimes? Do you agree that, on your logic, we shouldn't have the category of hate crimes?
    I am not against sentencing guidelines imposing harsher sentences if offences are racially etc motivated but neither am I particularly for it either, if that’s what you mean.
    But, as you argued with the laws against dog-napping, fewer higher quality laws are what we need so why do we differentiate because different types of the same crime, especially as it means Police are pressurised to investigate one type of the same crime over another.
    Do you have a particular offence in mind?
    This:

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

    And particularly this:

    "These crimes are covered by legislation (Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and section 66 of the Sentencing Act 2020) which allows prosecutors to apply for an uplift in sentence for those convicted of a hate crime."

    We have the case where the law treats one type of the same offence as more serious than another.

    But I am assuming you agree that legislation should be repealed?
    A sentencing uplift is not the same as a whole new offence. Its a weird how you’ve taken this opportunity to attack the concept of “hate crimes” seemingly out of nowhere.

    We can debate sentencing if you like
    You disagree that a new law was introduced to allow hate crimes to be sentenced differently? The CPS make it clear it was legislation that allowed this.

    Your original point was that we should have fewer, higher quality laws.

    In fact, you said we already had laws to deal with the theft of dogs so why introduce a new law. Same point here. We already had laws to deal with hateful language, acts etc so why was new legislation needed?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Hard to compare but it's a traditional Tory ward which was captured by LD and Lab (me) candidates in 2019. The Greens (whosse councillor fell ill, hence the by-election) are in coalition with us and we gave them a clear run. There was a serious Tory effort even though it's just a town Council ward.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Hard to compare but it's a traditional Tory ward which was captured by LD and Lab (me) candidates in 2019. The Greens (whosse councillor fell ill, hence the by-election) are in coalition with us and we gave them a clear run. There was a serious Tory effort even though it's just a town Council ward.

    Doesn’t sound that spectacular. It was taken from the Tories in 2019. You allowed the Greens a clear run hence the anti-Tory vote coalesced around a single party. How many times will you stand aside in the future?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    A strange result _ No Description gain from Brockworth First in Tewkesbury.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Ah, I remember the Ritz fondly. Wednesday night was student’s night, ended with the theme from ‘The Dambusters’. Never went on Saturday, which was locally known as ‘Grab a Grannie’ night.

    The Wedding Present - that is a blast from the past
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    One thing I disagree with directly, one thing by omission.

    The thing I disagree with directly is you still seem to be making a distinction between racism and anti-semitism. What he said was not only anti-Semitic but also racist. Do you accept he made racist comments?

    The omission part is that he criticised others for their forgetfulness and has called for them to be sacked yet he appears he was also (give him the benefit of the doubt) forgetful about his own racist comments. Sure, we can forgive him but he doesn’t seem in too keen a mood to forgive others.
    I simply do not see where you or anybody else is getting this about me making this 'distinction'. I am not. Here, look - He made antisemitic comments and ANTISEMITISM IS RACISM AGAINST JEWS.

    On the 'forgetfulness', ok, but what is your actual point? That those he named should face no consequences? Or that he shouldn't have named anybody? Or just that you personally think ill of him because to you he's more hypocrite than victim? Or what?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    It sure would be a lot simpler if the good guys could be completely good and the bad guys would be completely bad.

    I'll say something in Rafiq's favour - he knows how to apologise properly. His apology was a lot better than the mealy-mouthed norm. But, I think he could go further and extend the forgiveness he will hope to receive for his indiscretion to at least some of those he has accused. If his comments about Jews had been made verbally, rather than on an electronic medium where they were preserved, would he have remembered them any more than Vaughan has been able to remember the "your lot" comment?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What I find interesting is -

    That many people whose eyes usually glaze over with boredom or who seek to empathize with or find excuses for white men accused of racism/misogyny suddenly, when the racism/misogyny is coming from a Muslim source, leap into action and become absolute IRON.

    Quite the opposite. I think we are all a little bit racist, and this may show when we are young and foolish, AND IT SHOULD BE FORGIVEN

    What I despise - and what makes me angry - is double standards and hypocrisy. Like this guy Rafiq

    When he was accusing every one else of inhuman racism, did he forget that he is also a racist, or did he just hope that no one would notice that he is a racist?
    I'm sorry but I think this is ... to go a bit @IshmaelZ ... bollocks bollocks bollocks.

    Not the points about racism being present in most people and about forgiving youthful misjudgements, both of which I agree with, but what you present as where you're coming from. I think you come from a different place when it comes to Muslims. Quite a jaundiced one. Sorry if that's a misread but there you go.

    Some questions for you anyway. You say you hate Rafiq's hypocrisy. What do you mean by that? That because he was antisemitic back then he should have kept his trap shut now about years of racist bullying in his workplace? Should have just sucked it up?

    And what about his apology? Is that no good at all for you?

    And if you're so keen on cutting slack to a 19 year old for some racist tweets why come straight in with "he's a fucking racist!" - using the present tense and the superstrong racist noun option, plus a 'fucking' for good measure?

    It just doesn't scan. YOU don't scan. Not on this subject anyway.
    Fuck off you old Jew hater. Really. Enough of your cant
    Oh dear oh dear. Cannot handle any scrutiny whatsoever.

    Ok, just get back to your 'high style' wittering about this & that. There's appetite for it, I know, and I don't wish to distract.
    Is "high style" when you're a heroin addict and find God on a park bench?
    I'd say it is, yes. Very much so. He does class A, I do midget gems. Says it all.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Ah, I remember the Ritz fondly. Wednesday night was student’s night, ended with the theme from ‘The Dambusters’. Never went on Saturday, which was locally known as ‘Grab a Grannie’ night.

    The Wedding Present - that is a blast from the past
    Wednesday night was a semi-regular forme between 1993 and 1996 ( though I was from, rather than a student in, Manchester) - if that was your time period I may have seen you in there in the dima and distant past.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Saw the Wedding Present under the Archway in Notting Hill in early 90's. We were tripping on some cheap and nasty acid.
    David Gedge jumped off stage and started dancing with my gf now wife.
    Apparently, she was invited backstage. Or so I am told.
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Bit depressing on here tonight

    So I will raise the spirits. I am in Herefordshire doing research, and it’s the first time in 3 decades I’ve properly explored the county and town where I grew up

    OMG Herefordshire is exquisite. I had forgotten. Perhaps the loveliest county in England? Certainly the most unspoiled.

    However, everyone knows Herefordshire is gorgeous, they just have to be reminded. What is surprising is the city, Hereford. The scruffy, boozy, likeable Marches town - with edgy bits - that I remember, has been transformed into a chic, posh, prosperous cathedral city with specialist cheese shops and lots of cyclists. Like Winchester or Salisbury or an affluent, historic town in Holland or Bavaria

    It is also spookily quiet. Gone are the gangs of drinkers. Now people eat politely in Korean barbecues.

    Amazing. And definitely a change for the better even if I miss the boisterousness

    Thanks yet again for another report on your travels!

    But why so glum? Heck, just suggested an election that you personally (so to speak) can NOT lose!
    I’m not glum!

    I’ve had a wondrous day tramping the wilds of Herefordshire. Craswall Church under a full moon! It was like a Samuel Palmer painting

    Now I drink Amarone in the 17th century wood paneled rooms of the Green Dragon Hotel, opposite the delicately illuminated medieval Cathedral. Life is sweet
    BTW is it "Her-e-ford" or "Her'ferd"? The latter being what we call the cattle in US.
    Her - eeee - ford
    In US there are several towns named Hereford. Including county seat of Deaf Smith County, Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford,_Texas

    Apparently locals call it "Hur'furd" and call the place
    > Beef Capital of the World;
    > The Town Without a Toothache (because of naturally-occurring fluoride in the water)
    > Most Conservative Town in America (which somehow does NOT compute with above!)
    The Green Party are opposed to fluoridation, as an "assault on civil liberties."
    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/archive/emergencymotions/2.html
    That's a proposed motion to conference, so it's the view of some members, not the party.
    There's no indication of any vote on it, so it's impossible to tell whether it was adopted, supported, or slung it.
    And going by the reference to EDM 247... it's from 2003.

    Poor effort, Matt. Try harder next time.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    MrEd said:

    Hard to compare but it's a traditional Tory ward which was captured by LD and Lab (me) candidates in 2019. The Greens (whosse councillor fell ill, hence the by-election) are in coalition with us and we gave them a clear run. There was a serious Tory effort even though it's just a town Council ward.

    Doesn’t sound that spectacular. It was taken from the Tories in 2019. You allowed the Greens a clear run hence the anti-Tory vote coalesced around a single party. How many times will you stand aside in the future?
    The anti-Tory effort here is quite well organised. The Greens stood aside for me and the Libdems in the same (2-seat) ward in 2019. The Tories had held the ward for ages - I was the first Labour councillor since 2002 - so 61% for the rainbow candidate is solidly reassuring.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Hard to compare but it's a traditional Tory ward which was captured by LD and Lab (me) candidates in 2019. The Greens (whosse councillor fell ill, hence the by-election) are in coalition with us and we gave them a clear run. There was a serious Tory effort even though it's just a town Council ward.

    Doesn’t sound that spectacular. It was taken from the Tories in 2019. You allowed the Greens a clear run hence the anti-Tory vote coalesced around a single party. How many times will you stand aside in the future?
    The anti-Tory effort here is quite well organised. The Greens stood aside for me and the Libdems in the same (2-seat) ward in 2019. The Tories had held the ward for ages - I was the first Labour councillor since 2002 - so 61% for the rainbow candidate is solidly reassuring.
    That is fair enough. With coalition skills like that Nick, you should become Labour leader :)
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cookie said:

    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Ah, I remember the Ritz fondly. Wednesday night was student’s night, ended with the theme from ‘The Dambusters’. Never went on Saturday, which was locally known as ‘Grab a Grannie’ night.

    The Wedding Present - that is a blast from the past
    Wednesday night was a semi-regular forme between 1993 and 1996 ( though I was from, rather than a student in, Manchester) - if that was your time period I may have seen you in there in the dima and distant past.
    I’m the same as you, I’m from Manchester but didn’t study there. But I used to come home a lot - I worked in a bar with a whole load of Manchester Poly girls who used to drag me out to all the clubs. It was terrible :)
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Liverpool is really a case. They are claiming that Labour have won all three seats but are not declaring the results until tomorrow!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    One thing I disagree with directly, one thing by omission.

    The thing I disagree with directly is you still seem to be making a distinction between racism and anti-semitism. What he said was not only anti-Semitic but also racist. Do you accept he made racist comments?

    The omission part is that he criticised others for their forgetfulness and has called for them to be sacked yet he appears he was also (give him the benefit of the doubt) forgetful about his own racist comments. Sure, we can forgive him but he doesn’t seem in too keen a mood to forgive others.
    I simply do not see where you or anybody else is getting this about me making this 'distinction'. I am not. Here, look - He made antisemitic comments and ANTISEMITISM IS RACISM AGAINST JEWS.

    On the 'forgetfulness', ok, but what is your actual point? That those he named should face no consequences? Or that he shouldn't have named anybody? Or just that you personally think ill of him because to you he's more hypocrite than victim? Or what?
    Then just call it racism. Don’t have it as a ‘special category’. It gives the impression it’s a somewhat lesser crime.

    As to your other comment, you are spectacularly missing the point or wilfully neglecting it. Rafiq has been calling for the heads of others and claims that their forgetfulness is a sign they are unrepentant, yet he now asks for forgiveness for his own forgetfulness.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    slade said:

    Liverpool is really a case. They are claiming that Labour have won all three seats but are not declaring the results until tomorrow!

    It looks as if the Labour vote has collapsed by half or two thirds but they had huge majorities.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cookie said:

    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Ah, I remember the Ritz fondly. Wednesday night was student’s night, ended with the theme from ‘The Dambusters’. Never went on Saturday, which was locally known as ‘Grab a Grannie’ night.

    The Wedding Present - that is a blast from the past
    Wednesday night was a semi-regular forme between 1993 and 1996 ( though I was from, rather than a student in, Manchester) - if that was your time period I may have seen you in there in the dima and distant past.
    By the way Cookie, did you ever go to Friday’s?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Lib hold in Ryedale.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Farooq said:

    MattW said:



    The Green Party are opposed to fluoridation, as an "assault on civil liberties."
    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/archive/emergencymotions/2.html

    That's a proposed motion to conference, so it's the view of some members, not the party.
    There's no indication of any vote on it, so it's impossible to tell whether it was adopted, supported, or slung it.
    And going by the reference to EDM 247... it's from 2003.

    Poor effort, Matt. Try harder next time.
    "reiterates" though?

    For interest: the EDM was sponsored by David Amess, and signed by Nick Palmer.
    Yes, happy days - David and I signed lots of EDMs together. With the chequered history of my teeth you'd vote for flouridation from birth.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    It sure would be a lot simpler if the good guys could be completely good and the bad guys would be completely bad.

    I'll say something in Rafiq's favour - he knows how to apologise properly. His apology was a lot better than the mealy-mouthed norm. But, I think he could go further and extend the forgiveness he will hope to receive for his indiscretion to at least some of those he has accused. If his comments about Jews had been made verbally, rather than on an electronic medium where they were preserved, would he have remembered them any more than Vaughan has been able to remember the "your lot" comment?

    That’s a very good point re the verbal vs written part.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Looks like a Green gain in Canterbury.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:



    The Green Party are opposed to fluoridation, as an "assault on civil liberties."
    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/archive/emergencymotions/2.html

    That's a proposed motion to conference, so it's the view of some members, not the party.
    There's no indication of any vote on it, so it's impossible to tell whether it was adopted, supported, or slung it.
    And going by the reference to EDM 247... it's from 2003.

    Poor effort, Matt. Try harder next time.
    "reiterates" though?

    For interest: the EDM was sponsored by David Amess, and signed by Nick Palmer.
    Yes, happy days - David and I signed lots of EDMs together. With the chequered history of my teeth you'd vote for flouridation from birth.
    I see the Greens did oppose flouridation in 2000 (with Ken Livingstone, sigh):

    https://fluoridealert.org/news/greens-claim-london-anti-fluoridation-announcement-a-victory-for-whole-country/
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    'Evening everyone.
    To lighten the mood, let, in the slightly alcoholic haze typical of my reportage of 'first x post-covid', tell you of my first post-covid gig. The Wedding Present (anyone remember them?), the Ritz, Manchester. Average age of audience must have been in the upper forties, but I did hear some youngsters in the audience next to me discuss what they were doing at school the next day. Anyway, an utterly joyous occasion.
    The annoying bit first: 02 venues insist on proof of vaccination or an LFT, so - uninformed of thus beforehand - I had a quick trip to a pharmacy where three other people were also getting LFTs. It was unnecessarily complex to get one - you needed to scan a qr code, which my phone seems unable to do, and register it with the NHS, which, having gone into town with the intention of watching g my glasses and therefore without my glasses, was difficult to achieve. All sorted in the end through basic bloody-mindedness.
    Anyway, that over with, it was brilliant. Night clubs, contrary to supposition are very much not dead. Not only first post-covid gig but first covid mosh pit - the joy of which is the same as it ever was.
    David Gedge has aged though. But it was, what, 20 years since I last saw them. He's 61 now. I suppose I've probably aged on the last two decades too.

    Ah, I remember the Ritz fondly. Wednesday night was student’s night, ended with the theme from ‘The Dambusters’. Never went on Saturday, which was locally known as ‘Grab a Grannie’ night.

    The Wedding Present - that is a blast from the past
    Wednesday night was a semi-regular forme between 1993 and 1996 ( though I was from, rather than a student in, Manchester) - if that was your time period I may have seen you in there in the dima and distant past.
    By the way Cookie, did you ever go to Friday’s?
    I don't think I did, no.
    Fridays were rarely a clubbing day in my youth - I suppose Friday is where the clubs can maximise their income from the mainstream so the niches get the obscurer days of the week.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    slade said:

    Looks like a Green gain in Canterbury.

    Big swing Lab to Green.
  • slade said:

    Liverpool is really a case. They are claiming that Labour have won all three seats but are not declaring the results until tomorrow!

    Its Liverpool. They could have claimed that Labour have won all three seats but voting starts tomorrow!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    slade said:

    Looks like a Green gain in Canterbury.

    A first for the favourite in these betting markets?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2021
    Starting to feel that the LDs will win North Shropshire despite the negatives for them in the constituency, like for example the fact that it voted 59% Leave and that it has a lower than average number of graduates. Just a hunch.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    slade said:

    slade said:

    Looks like a Green gain in Canterbury.

    Big swing Lab to Green.
    LD not standing as last time. Is this a tacit agreement?
    If so, this, and what NPXMP was alluding to earlier, could certainly game the FPTP system in the future.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    edited November 2021
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite
    I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
    Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
    Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.

    As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
    I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.

    However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
    What's 'not a good look' is getting overly bogged down in this. To me it's pretty simple.

    Rafiq testified to racism in cricket and particularly at Yorkshire. This should be taken seriously. He also said some antisemitic things as a young man. This shames him but doesn't affect the first thing.

    He's apologized. It sounds sincere. It sounds like he's ashamed and has changed. That he isn't antisemitic now. But I don't know for sure. How can I?

    As for other people, it's case by case, you can't sensibly say otherwise. So, the context, the circumstances, the actual things said and done, time passed, age of protagonists, the power relationships, credibility, apology or not, tone of it if so, other factors, bla bla.

    Tell me what you disagree with in any of the above.
    One thing I disagree with directly, one thing by omission.

    The thing I disagree with directly is you still seem to be making a distinction between racism and anti-semitism. What he said was not only anti-Semitic but also racist. Do you accept he made racist comments?

    The omission part is that he criticised others for their forgetfulness and has called for them to be sacked yet he appears he was also (give him the benefit of the doubt) forgetful about his own racist comments. Sure, we can forgive him but he doesn’t seem in too keen a mood to forgive others.
    I simply do not see where you or anybody else is getting this about me making this 'distinction'. I am not. Here, look - He made antisemitic comments and ANTISEMITISM IS RACISM AGAINST JEWS.

    On the 'forgetfulness', ok, but what is your actual point? That those he named should face no consequences? Or that he shouldn't have named anybody? Or just that you personally think ill of him because to you he's more hypocrite than victim? Or what?
    Then just call it racism. Don’t have it as a ‘special category’. It gives the impression it’s a somewhat lesser crime.

    As to your other comment, you are spectacularly missing the point or wilfully neglecting it. Rafiq has been calling for the heads of others and claims that their forgetfulness is a sign they are unrepentant, yet he now asks for forgiveness for his own forgetfulness.
    You really have lost me, Ed, as regards the language thing. Antisemitism is the word for anti jewish racist prejudice. Just as (say) Islamophobia is for anti muslim racist prejudice.

    So how on earth is somebody using those standard usage terms implying that they are lesser forms of racist prejudice than other types? This is a ridiculous inference. No?

    And your other point - Rafiq was saying the fact people didn't remember indicated how normal it was, not that they were unrepentant. That's what I heard anyway. Maybe there was more. In which case, ok, I see the point.

    But again, what's the upshot for you? That those he shamed should face no consequences because he himself has now been shamed? I don't get where you're going with it.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    It looks as if both Labour and the Conservatives are suffering in the elections tonight. The sleaze issue is playing across the aisle.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Labour hold in Mcr Chorlton.
    And that's your lot.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    dixiedean said:

    Labour hold in Mcr Chorlton.
    And that's your lot.

    West Devon counting tomorrow.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    Lab hold in Chorlton but Lib Dems cut majority from 2500 to under 1000.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Peng Shuai still missing.
    Not good. At all.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    slade said:

    Lab hold in Chorlton but Lib Dems cut majority from 2500 to under 1000.

    Still comfortably over 50% of the vote. Of more interest to me is that the LD's leapfrogged the Greens into second. Somewhat against trend.
  • dixiedean said:

    Peng Shuai still missing.
    Not good. At all.

    Slim chance she'll be seen again. 😟
  • dixiedean said:

    Labour hold in Mcr Chorlton.
    And that's your lot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo6C_CebBqc
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "England cricketer Alex Hales pictured in blackface heaping more shame on sport rocked by racism"

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/16779926/england-cricketer-alex-hales-pictured-face-black-racism/
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    slade said:

    Liverpool is really a case. They are claiming that Labour have won all three seats but are not declaring the results until tomorrow!

    Its Liverpool. They could have claimed that Labour have won all three seats but voting starts tomorrow!
    Under Big Joe anything was possible - any news on his helping the police with their enquiries?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Gorrell (Canterbury) by-election result:

    GRN: 43.9% (+10.3)
    LAB: 30.7% (-6.0)
    CON: 23.2% (+0.2)
    WPGB: 2.2% (+2.2)

    Green GAIN from Labour.

    No LDem (-6.8) as prev.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    @Leon try Scotland pal
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    dixiedean said:

    Peng Shuai still missing.
    Not good. At all.

    Slim chance she'll be seen again. 😟
    Would like. But can't. Dismal. Not you, the PRC.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    The Yorkshire Party.... I welcome a bit more electoral competition - the LDs/Greens have tended to struggle in the White Rose County. Whilst it may be called a wasted vote, people said the same about UKIP etc, IMO the Conservatives would be the most threatened.... with good candidates and a fair wind who knows?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    O/T

    "Why America can’t kick its opioid addiction
    Naive policies can't compete with today's drugs
    BY OLIVER WISEMAN"

    https://unherd.com/2021/11/why-america-cant-kick-its-opioid-addiction/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    For those saying Rafiq was 'young' as an excuse: at 19, the age he made these comments, he had been a senior player at Yorkshire for a year or two, and had captained their under-15 and under-19 sides. He captained England junior sides around this time.

    He was integral to the culture of the club at the time he made these comments.

    The year before (2010), he had been suspended by the ECB for a month for sending abuse on Twitter. Evidently he did not learn from that...

    He deserves exactly the same criticism that he lays out on other players who called him names (not some of the other stuff, though.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    As for Alex Hales blacking up, we all know that’s not a resigning matter. :tongue:
  • tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.

    BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.

    Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.

    In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?

    Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.

    We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)

    This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.

    BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.

    Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.

    In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?

    Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.

    We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)

    This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
    Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.

    BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.

    Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.

    In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?

    Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.

    We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)

    This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
    Actually, he didn’t confess. He was found out. Had he confessed to the select committee that he’d made such comments when he was younger, he’d look incredibly virtuous. But he didn’t.
    Whatever individuals may have said/written in public/private or not, Yorkshire Cricket has still got a long way to go and blaming the whistleblower as a tactic is never good.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.

    BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.

    Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.

    In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?

    Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.

    We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)

    This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
    He was a senior player at the club. He was captain of their junior sides. From the usage in the tweets, this was language that he could easily slip into. If there was institutionalised racism and bullying at that time, then the chances are he was as much part of it as those he complained about. I think the tweets he got the ban for a month against the coach highlight that well.

    It's a shame he didn't feel fit to bring the subject of his ban up front of the committee (I don't think he did?). It would have led to a question about why abuse of the coach was seen as worthy of a ban by the ECB, yet what went on later was ignored. But he was silent.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    In my far off, misspent youth I heard the N-word fairly frequently at school in my small, rural-industrial hometown in West Virginia. Despite the near-total absence of Black people, just one woman, a doctor's maid who I never actually saw.

    BTW never heard the n-word from my parents or friends parents (except to warn against it) when I was a kid, and seldom as an adult myself from other adults. At school can't recall hearing it used by or around girls, always just among boys.

    Think uttering the N-word was partly reflection of what some kids heard at home or from relatives & family friends, but also some kids wanting to sound tough, edgy, cool or all of the above, among ourselves if not others.

    In other words, locker room talk. To which jocks are especially, occupationally susceptible?

    Which is a different thing from institutionalized racism and bullying. Albeit very much related, however connections are not always straightforward.

    We live, learn . . . and improve. (The Whig Theory of Progress!)

    This sportsman has fessed up and repented. His sport should start doing the same.
    He was a senior player at the club. He was captain of their junior sides. From the usage in the tweets, this was language that he could easily slip into. If there was institutionalised racism and bullying at that time, then the chances are he was as much part of it as those he complained about. I think the tweets he got the ban for a month against the coach highlight that well.

    It's a shame he didn't feel fit to bring the subject of his ban up front of the committee (I don't think he did?). It would have led to a question about why abuse of the coach was seen as worthy of a ban by the ECB, yet what went on later was ignored. But he was silent.
    Sky News went as far as to say that the rafiq racism is further proof that YCCC has/has a problem with racism. I thought that was a bit of a stretch of logic.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,785
    edited November 2021
    Good morning, everyone.

    I must fundamentally disagree with this desire to slice England into pieces... only just got up so don't really want to type an essay right now, but my views on this are pretty well-known to people who have been here a while.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    If they do actually electrify the whole of the MML, then it wouldn’t take much to infill the bits around it.

    They said that about the Chase Line and it wasn't true.
    You mean in the 1960s? It is now electrified.
    I'm aware of that, I live in Cannock fifty yards from the fecking tracks and travel on it frequently.

    I also remember that the 'wouldn't take much to electrify it' we were promised turned out to take two years longer than expected and ended up 75% over budget. Which were two rather unpleasant years for those of us who used the railway.

    And at the end of it, because of the appalling congestion of the WCML from Rugby to Euston the London service we were promised lasted only 18 months.

    Which may be a thread header on the reasons why these so called plans are a pack of lies put together by total retards who don't have a clue about just about anything, including railways or basic things like mathematics.

    Anyway, I have a busy day tomorrow. Good night.
    Well you should get a direct service once the London Brum line is completed. :)
    Sigh. You have again completely missed the point.

    I am fully aware of that, and my understanding of how capacity constraints affect much more than the spine network is one reason why I am in favour of HS2.

    But electrifying local lines, which Network Rail finds very difficult and does badly, won’t help if there is no capacity for those trains on the main line. And on these plans capacity on the MML would be significantly reduced.

    So on the basis of Cannock’s experience I am saying that your claims are completely wrong and this is a disaster for local services in the area from Nottingham to Sheffield.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited November 2021
    pigeon said:


    George Eaton
    @georgeeaton
    ·
    7h
    Just *0.7%* of the UK's rail network is high-speed – today's
    @NewStatesman
    Chart of the Day on how Britain trails behind Europe for high-speed rail. https://newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2021/11/how-the-uk-trails-behind-europe-for-high-speed-rail

    Three reasons:

    1. Britain is small: a bog-standard inter city service will get you between almost all the main population centres in a fairly reasonable time (if you're lucky enough to pick a day when it's working properly, that is)
    2. Britain is hopeless at infrastructure projects and has been for at least the last hundred years: they're typically very late, vastly over budget, and often both
    3. Most crucially, Britain is absolutely full from top to bottom with nimbies. The Government can't even defend by-elections in the wealthier parts of Buckinghamshire, so deep and visceral is the loathing felt for HS2 by the locals

    All that having been said, there's a good argument to be made for throwing the entire project in the dustbin and delivering line upgrades across the North at a fraction of the price. One wonders how much the decision not to do this (or, at most, finish the half-constructed line from London to Birmingham and stop at that) has to do with the appalling optics of not bothering to plumb the North into the system at all, and how much is actually down to the sunk costs fallacy.
    They have already started building the line north of Birmingham as well.

    PS - HS2 is an upgrade to the network and without it there is nowhere for trains on other upgraded lines to run.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2021
    Wasn’t Sheffield supposedly a winner from yesterdays review? Well this is the local paper

    image
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    eek said:

    Wasn’t Sheffield supposedly a winner from yesterdays review? Well this is the local paper

    image

    There were no winners in yesterday’s review. Yorkshire and North East are the big losers. Unfortunately for Johnson given they are not as stupid as Shapps or Mogg they have realised this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is not to excuse the cricketer in question, but when I was at secondary school* "Don't be a Jew" was used by almost every kid when attempting to cadge chocolate or crisps off a school friend.

    In retrospect, it rather makes me wince.

    * In Horsham. And I don't think there were any Jews in the school.

    That’s interesting, because such stereotypes weren’t in our thinking at my secondary school.

    But I agree that Rafiq doesn’t deserve too much criticism (certainly no more than Ollie Robinson deserves). The YCCC story is awful because it is a bullying scandal.
    And because the institution refused to accept anything needed changing (which is Rafiq's main point).
    I was at school in the 70s, and casual racism was not at all uncommon. I can't recall anyone using the racist 'Jew' stereotype either.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Senior Conservative MPs, regional leaders and industry figures have accused ministers of betraying the north with a delayed and downgraded £96bn rail plan…experts poured doubt on the idea of rapid progress, warning of delays and disruption for commuters after longstanding plans were ripped up. Boris Johnson was accused of reneging on commitments to level up.

    Tory MPs were among furious critics in the Commons on Thursday. Huw Merriman, who chairs the Commons transport select committee, suggested Johnson was “selling perpetual sunlight and then leaving it to others to explain the arrival of moonlight”.

    Keighley’s Robbie Moore, one of the 2019 intake of red wall Tories, said he was bitterly disappointed that his region had been “left completely shortchanged”, telling ministers: “We need to do much, much more.”

    Kevin Hollinrake, MP for Thirsk and Malton in North Yorkshire, said a new station in Bradford would have given the city “a King’s Cross-style regeneration opportunity [but instead] the economic price will be paid for generations”.

    Sir Edward Leigh, MP for Gainsborough, said the north-east had “heard these promises again and again” to improve rail lines. While HS2 was a white elephant, it was now “a white elephant missing a leg”, he added. Philip Davies, MP for Shipley, called the U-turn a “massively missed opportunity”.

    Regional Tory leaders expressed similar frustration. Martyn Cox, leader of Bolton council, signed a letter to Johnson organised by the West Yorkshire mayor, Tracy Brabin, that said the scaling back of NPR was “contrary to your ambition to ‘level-up’ the north” and “runs the risk of holding back our regional economies and compromising our plans to cut carbon emissions”. Ben Houchen, the Tees Valley mayor, said without the eastern leg of HS2, the whole project was now “a waste of money and should be scrapped”.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2021

    Good morning, everyone.

    I must fundamentally disagree with this desire to slice England into pieces... only just got up so don't really want to type an essay right now, but my views on this are pretty well-known to people who have been here a while.

    I think it would be wrong to characterise David's move in that way. I take it more as being forced by utter despair with the national party rather than a 'desire to slice England into pieces'.
This discussion has been closed.