"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
Yup if they vote in favour then it's curtains in 2024 anyway. At least if they vote this down and Boris gets axed they've got a shot.
Is there evidence there is huge demand in the RedWall for an HS2 to Leeds?
Certainly campaigners who faced their properties being demolished because they were in its path, including as far north as Bramley, Rotherham, are elated it has been scrapped https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59334043
Anyone who knows anyone that lives east of the Pennines knows what an utter nightmare the current rail transport infrastructure is. I've friends going on about it for years.
This is another disastrous error by Johnson.
It may be an error in big Yorkshire cities like Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford for whom faster links to London are a benefit but every seat in those cities is Labour held anyway.
In Yorkshire villages and small towns which are more likely to be part of seats which are Tory or went Tory in 2019 and where properties faced demolition and noise pollution from HS2 I am sceptical this decision will be greeted poorly
They still face that prospect, the land is not being released so the risk is still there.
When the people discover that I suspect they won't like being misinformed / lied to.
My local news tonight was awash with vox pop interviews with delighted house owners who no longer would be threatened with the line coming through their property.
Seems to me the journos had not checked details. The properties are still under orders iirc.
Yep - it's going to be a nasty surprise especially as they rush to sell.
There is so much counter-factual detail behind the headlines. They won't be able to hide it.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.
I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.
Though we do get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
In the US one thing that makes Thanksgiving approachable and attractive for immigrants from around the world, is the fact that it is firmly non-sectarian and, despite its specific origins and national traditions, broadly multi-cultural.
Even when you remove the myths, and recognize that the Native Americans REALLY got the short end of the wish-bone, at the core is the coming together of the families AND the whole American family.
Plus even atheists are willing to give thanks every now and then!
The problem in our household is getting a fresh Turkey a month before Christmas
Perhaps on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) we should reactivate "Bundles for Britain"?
OR maybe we could arrange for you to get a very special Christmas goose?!?
Personally am not a big fan of turkey UNLESS it is really done right, which in my experience is not often.
How's about a holiday ham?
PS - IF I ask around, sure I can find PLENTY of last-year's fruit cakes to send over . . .
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
I think Johnson is absolutely fecked now. Just waiting for the inevitable downfall
I agree. I said on the day of Hartlepool that that was peak Johnson, and I can't think of any reason to revise that view. A great entertainer, and that's it.
I think Johnson is absolutely fecked now. Just waiting for the inevitable downfall
I agree. I said on the day of Hartlepool that that was peak Johnson, and I can't think of any reason to revise that view. A great entertainer, and that's it.
Brexit - he can muddle through, the Pandemic, people will give him the benefit of the doubt. Rebuilding the county after? He couldn’t give a shit
"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
'Levelling up' feels dead in the waters of the rivers Aire and Don tonight to me.
But I have been wrong before.
As noted previously, renaming the DCLG to the even sillier named DLUHC may have been a mistake.
DCLG is horribly close to DDLG and could lead to terrible, career ending typos. Best to change
That's an acronym I hadn't been aware of (I nearly said 'come across') which may be as well given my current profession, and don't feel that my life has been particularly enriched by knowing it.
It's the sort of mad idea that old reprobate SeanT would have come up with, if he were still around.
On the other announcement, one thought hadn't occurred to me until I looked at some of the detail. This plan, such as it is, would actually massively reduce capacity on the Midland Mainline by putting more and faster express trains on it. Goodbye to any hope of extra trains on any line that runs near Derby, Chesterfield, Nottingham or Loughborough.
And yet it's promising more trains in those areas.
Something doesn't add up here.
Especially since the section that's being shelved is the cheapest section. It would cost around £5 billion. Peanuts compared to Euston's remodelling (although they're scaling that back too, of course).
I am starting to think an investigation of the bank accounts of certain senior ministers and civil servants would be in order, just to ensure there are no mysterious payments from the air transport industry.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
HIs treatment absolutely matters.
What also matters is that, as someone pointed out, he criticised others for claiming not to recollect such abuse only for him to then forget his own tweets.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
I obviously wasn't clear otherwise Ed wouldn't have agreed with me. I started by saying in order to do what rafiq has done 'you'd have to be whiter than white...' I wrote it without thinking and changed it to something else and then changed tack completely.
.......My point was that any charge of racism trumps everything. You can lose your job with a word in the wrong place. Maybe that's fair but everyone of us has done it at least inadvertently. If suggesting Rafiq should return his £200,000 to YCC because he was no better than those he accuses is mad.
It wasn't the magic word 'racism' that earned him that £200,000 it was the bullying. Do I think he's a racist who should lose £200,000 and the possibility of future earnings because something he said comes under the category racism? No I don't. This thing had become silly and has a whiff of McCarthyism to boot.
You will be disappointed Rog but I actually agree with you on that as well.
"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
Yup if they vote in favour then it's curtains in 2024 anyway. At least if they vote this down and Boris gets axed they've got a shot.
Is there evidence there is huge demand in the RedWall for an HS2 to Leeds?
Certainly campaigners who faced their properties being demolished because they were in its path, including as far north as Bramley, Rotherham, are elated it has been scrapped https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59334043
Screw the NIMBYs
The Tories lost Chesham and Amersham in part because of opposition to HS2
Screw the NIMBYs.
In a way that's what's most extraordinary. The way the government have done this they manage the maximum of expenditure and political pain for minimal actual gains.
True, a significant capacity uplift on the WCML corridor is in itself welcome, but something like 60% of the extra capacity is reliant on HS2's eastern leg being built.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
They are, and those can be easily spotted. But not everyone focusing on the latest reveal is trying to do that, so it is not to be presumed to be the case.
I think Johnson is absolutely fecked now. Just waiting for the inevitable downfall
I agree. I said on the day of Hartlepool that that was peak Johnson, and I can't think of any reason to revise that view. A great entertainer, and that's it.
Tbh I've been distinctly unentertained by BJ's antics up till recently. Quite enjoying the show now though.
OT covid lab-leak fans might be interested in Matt Ridley talking about this (to plug his book) on this week's Spectator TV, and this is immediately followed by an American scientist on different evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDh0wc-9hJQ&t=1689s
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist
He is also a total fucking hypocrite
I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
Those tweets are indicative of antisemitic sentiment at that time in their author. That is undeniable.
As for now, I don't know. Obviously I don't. So why are you asking me?
I'm asking you (1) so that we have uniform standards and (2) because you seemed to draw a distinction between anti-Semitic and racist comments, which others have also highlighted as well. My own view on Rafiq is that people can change and that he may not be a racist now but complaining about others forgetting when he has skeletons in his own closet is not a good look.
However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.
I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.
Though we do get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
In the US one thing that makes Thanksgiving approachable and attractive for immigrants from around the world, is the fact that it is firmly non-sectarian and, despite its specific origins and national traditions, broadly multi-cultural.
Even when you remove the myths, and recognize that the Native Americans REALLY got the short end of the wish-bone, at the core is the coming together of the families AND the whole American family.
Plus even atheists are willing to give thanks every now and then!
The problem in our household is getting a fresh Turkey a month before Christmas
Perhaps on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) we should reactivate "Bundles for Britain"?
OR maybe we could arrange for you to get a very special Christmas goose?!?
Personally am not a big fan of turkey UNLESS it is really done right, which in my experience is not often.
How's about a holiday ham?
PS - IF I ask around, sure I can find PLENTY of last-year's fruit cakes to send over . . .
Some Spam perhaps.
My partner's parents spoke quite fondly of this US bounty during rationing.
Re HS2 i have always thought it a stupid project and i generally like infrastructure projects - even Boris' garden bridge seemed fine to me. I
HS2 is a sensible project when you understand the need for additional capacity and the impact multiple speeds on a single track has on total capacity.
We literally go from 10 trains an hour to 30 just by adding the extra set of tracks. And 10 of those additional trains can be local services that simply can't be run at the moment.
Trouble is that the arguments against HS2 can be boiled down to free-standing three word slogans; "Waste of money", "Save the trees", "Go away London". They're dumb arguments, but short.
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
'Levelling up' feels dead in the waters of the rivers Aire and Don tonight to me.
But I have been wrong before.
As noted previously, renaming the DCLG to the even sillier named DLUHC may have been a mistake.
DCLG is horribly close to DDLG and could lead to terrible, career ending typos. Best to change
That's an acronym I hadn't been aware of (I nearly said 'come across') which may be as well given my current profession, and don't feel that my life has been particularly enriched by knowing it.
It's the sort of mad idea that old reprobate SeanT would have come up with, if he were still around.
On the other announcement, one thought hadn't occurred to me until I looked at some of the detail. This plan, such as it is, would actually massively reduce capacity on the Midland Mainline by putting more and faster express trains on it. Goodbye to any hope of extra trains on any line that runs near Derby, Chesterfield, Nottingham or Loughborough.
And yet it's promising more trains in those areas.
Something doesn't add up here.
Especially since the section that's being shelved is the cheapest section. It would cost around £5 billion. Peanuts compared to Euston's remodelling (although they're scaling that back too, of course).
I am starting to think an investigation of the bank accounts of certain senior ministers and civil servants would be in order, just to ensure there are no mysterious payments from the air transport industry.
Here is reality. The politicians are clueless. They are spouting nonsense - Johnson claimed they are doubling Manchester - Leeds capacity and TREBLING Manchester - Liverpool. Claims for new journey times that don't pass the sniff test. They know all of this is a decade away from being signed off - they just want the headlines.
Then you dig down. Most of it doesn't yet have a detailed business plan, or sign-off from the Treasury. Laughable "warp speed" announcements like Brum - Nottingham in 28 minutes are an outright fraud moving Nottingham to East Mids Parkway. 12 minutes Leeds - Bradford is an "as little as" "target" pending on the business case supporting it.
Its a lie. We scrapped HS2 and NPR because it was too slow and wouldn't connect places. So instead here is a scheme on the same delivery timetable as the scrapped plans that delivers LESS connectivity.
Why does @david_herdson joining the Yorkshire Party matter? Because there has been a growing movement of voters into local, sub-regional and regional parties. When the big parties don't deliver, find a platform to make your demands.
Yorkshire has just been utterly screwed by the Integrated Rail Plan, with basic connectivity improvements not even in scope of a plan that reaches out to 2043. Labour did nowt, Tories are doing nowt, why vote for either?
I've said for a while that the people who abandoned Labour for Brexit and the Tories will then need another new home as the betrayal becomes clear. Today was a Big Step on their journey in recognising they have been screwed.
All hail the Yorkshire Party, your time has come.
Yorkshire's one of the few areas of England where regional identification is strong enough to make a party vaguely viable. A Nottinghamshire Party would I think be met with bemusement, and a Surrey Party with outright derision. Where else might a local party have traction? I could imagine a London Party, arguing that the capital has needs not recognised by the national parties.
Incidentally, a fiercely-fought Town Council by-election in my ward of Binscombe tonight - Tories vs Greens (a Green councillor stood down due to illness, and Labour and LibDems as coalition partners decided to let them have a clear run). Jeremy Hunt has been taking an active interest.
I'd be curious to know if there's a correlation between those who are pro HS2 and those who voted for Brexit. I say cancel the whole bloody thing, but by all means build an ordinary modern rail service there instead, including Yorkshire.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.
I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.
Though we do get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
In the US one thing that makes Thanksgiving approachable and attractive for immigrants from around the world, is the fact that it is firmly non-sectarian and, despite its specific origins and national traditions, broadly multi-cultural.
Even when you remove the myths, and recognize that the Native Americans REALLY got the short end of the wish-bone, at the core is the coming together of the families AND the whole American family.
Plus even atheists are willing to give thanks every now and then!
The problem in our household is getting a fresh Turkey a month before Christmas
Perhaps on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) we should reactivate "Bundles for Britain"?
OR maybe we could arrange for you to get a very special Christmas goose?!?
Personally am not a big fan of turkey UNLESS it is really done right, which in my experience is not often.
How's about a holiday ham?
PS - IF I ask around, sure I can find PLENTY of last-year's fruit cakes to send over . . .
Some Spam perhaps.
My partner's parents spoke quite fondly of this US bounty during rationing.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist
He is also a total fucking hypocrite
I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
Referring to someone as a Jew in a third party communication because they are tight-fisted is clearly racist. We don't know if the person is Jewish, quite probably not. It sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, the sort of terminology used in the playground when I was a kid, say 45 years ago.
It is quite clearly different in scale and quality to persistent racial bullying that Azim Rafiq has described.
45 years ago, it was acceptable to talk about the 'Banana Boat' and plenty of other things. That doesn't make it right. And Rafiq's comments are not 45 years ago.
Not sure what happens to the Winter Olympics if Peng Shuai stays missing. This will escalate bigly beyond the control of the sports authorities who may prefer to keep China on board.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
Nope. Four word response to that, of which the second to fourth are "off and die."
If you are trying to make the case that objecting very, very strongly to racism is evidence of racism, the chances are very, very strongly that you are a stupid racist c--t.
Re HS2 i have always thought it a stupid project and i generally like infrastructure projects - even Boris' garden bridge seemed fine to me. I
HS2 is a sensible project when you understand the need for additional capacity and the impact multiple speeds on a single track has on total capacity.
We literally go from 10 trains an hour to 30 just by adding the extra set of tracks. And 10 of those additional trains can be local services that simply can't be run at the moment.
Trouble is that the arguments against HS2 can be boiled down to free-standing three word slogans; "Waste of money", "Save the trees", "Go away London". They're dumb arguments, but short.
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
And we all know what happens then.
It helped of course that in Joe Rukin Stop HS2 had the only man less intelligent, less scrupulous and less capable of understanding complex issues while still coming up with pithy slogans than Dominic Cummings.
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
Bullying that reduces one groups participation in a sport from something like 30% at recreational level to 3% at professional level clearly has a wider impact than random bullying of an individual.
Both are equally wrong, but their impact and importance at the societal level is different.
Re HS2 i have always thought it a stupid project and i generally like infrastructure projects - even Boris' garden bridge seemed fine to me. I
HS2 is a sensible project when you understand the need for additional capacity and the impact multiple speeds on a single track has on total capacity.
We literally go from 10 trains an hour to 30 just by adding the extra set of tracks. And 10 of those additional trains can be local services that simply can't be run at the moment.
Trouble is that the arguments against HS2 can be boiled down to free-standing three word slogans; "Waste of money", "Save the trees", "Go away London". They're dumb arguments, but short.
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
And we all know what happens then.
It's really very simple - HS2 provides extra capacity that will allow you both a faster train to London and a lot more local services.
It's the latter bit that has never been mentioned and you can see it in the reports that look at increases in Leeds to London trade and ignore all the increases everywhere in between.
Well there was only one story on this evening's Look North, as you might expect.
There was a vox pop from a red wall first time Tory voter from 2019. Realises now that he's been shafted by them and taken for a mug. I do hope that he's representative of the many who were duped.
Let's see if we can turn Airedale and Wharfedale red on the back of this. Wouldn't that be nice?
(Well, those bits in West Yorkshire. Skip and Rip would be a bit of a stretch!)
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
Over 1000 complaints to the new cricket hotline in a week show it is not about one bloke.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist
He is also a total fucking hypocrite
I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
Referring to someone as a Jew in a third party communication because they are tight-fisted is clearly racist. We don't know if the person is Jewish, quite probably not. It sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, the sort of terminology used in the playground when I was a kid, say 45 years ago.
It is quite clearly different in scale and quality to persistent racial bullying that Azim Rafiq has described.
45 years ago, it was acceptable to talk about the 'Banana Boat' and plenty of other things. That doesn't make it right. And Rafiq's comments are not 45 years ago.
Hard to believe but it was acceptable to to talk about tank topped bum boys and piccaninnies with water melon smiles only a few years ago.
"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
Yup if they vote in favour then it's curtains in 2024 anyway. At least if they vote this down and Boris gets axed they've got a shot.
Is there evidence there is huge demand in the RedWall for an HS2 to Leeds?
Certainly campaigners who faced their properties being demolished because they were in its path, including as far north as Bramley, Rotherham, are elated it has been scrapped https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59334043
Screw the NIMBYs
The Tories lost Chesham and Amersham in part because of opposition to HS2
Screw the NIMBYs.
Well the losers at the timer kept saying that the Lib Dems were playing both ends against the middle. Turns out what the voters actually wanted to do was hurt the Tories. You ain't seen nothing yet...
Re HS2 i have always thought it a stupid project and i generally like infrastructure projects - even Boris' garden bridge seemed fine to me. I
HS2 is a sensible project when you understand the need for additional capacity and the impact multiple speeds on a single track has on total capacity.
We literally go from 10 trains an hour to 30 just by adding the extra set of tracks. And 10 of those additional trains can be local services that simply can't be run at the moment.
Trouble is that the arguments against HS2 can be boiled down to free-standing three word slogans; "Waste of money", "Save the trees", "Go away London". They're dumb arguments, but short.
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
And we all know what happens then.
It's really very simple - HS2 provides extra capacity that will allow you both a faster train to London and a lot more local services.
It's the latter bit that has never been mentioned and you can see it in the reports that look at increases in Leeds to London trade and ignore all the increases everywhere in between.
Sure, it's simple. But at 19 words, it's over six times too long.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
Re HS2 i have always thought it a stupid project and i generally like infrastructure projects - even Boris' garden bridge seemed fine to me. I
HS2 is a sensible project when you understand the need for additional capacity and the impact multiple speeds on a single track has on total capacity.
We literally go from 10 trains an hour to 30 just by adding the extra set of tracks. And 10 of those additional trains can be local services that simply can't be run at the moment.
Trouble is that the arguments against HS2 can be boiled down to free-standing three word slogans; "Waste of money", "Save the trees", "Go away London". They're dumb arguments, but short.
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
And we all know what happens then.
It's really very simple - HS2 provides extra capacity that will allow you both a faster train to London and a lot more local services.
It's the latter bit that has never been mentioned and you can see it in the reports that look at increases in Leeds to London trade and ignore all the increases everywhere in between.
Indeed. Depends how they prioritise the paths but Phase 1 was said to be capable of delivering a three fold increase in commuter seats from Milton Keynes to London, despite HS2 not stopping there.
It is depressing how many Treasury officials see fit to appropriate an ever greater share of private wealth to be frittered away on any old nonsense, but consider any slowdown or cancellation of long term infrastructure to be their proudest career achievements. Rishi not up to the job if he still hasn’t figured out the culture at the Treasury.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.
I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.
Though we do get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
In the US one thing that makes Thanksgiving approachable and attractive for immigrants from around the world, is the fact that it is firmly non-sectarian and, despite its specific origins and national traditions, broadly multi-cultural.
Even when you remove the myths, and recognize that the Native Americans REALLY got the short end of the wish-bone, at the core is the coming together of the families AND the whole American family.
Plus even atheists are willing to give thanks every now and then!
The problem in our household is getting a fresh Turkey a month before Christmas
Perhaps on this side of the Atlantic (and Pacific) we should reactivate "Bundles for Britain"?
OR maybe we could arrange for you to get a very special Christmas goose?!?
Personally am not a big fan of turkey UNLESS it is really done right, which in my experience is not often.
How's about a holiday ham?
PS - IF I ask around, sure I can find PLENTY of last-year's fruit cakes to send over . . .
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
Uniquely bad? Not necessarily. But as an additional element I do think it is likely to make it worse in many cases.
I don't think that's especially controversial - all sins are not equal, not all crimes are equally bad just because they are crimes after all. Picking on someone vs picking on someone with racial harrassment for instance are not necessarily equal even though both are wrong.
And is rather irrelevant to the point that was made about separating out racism from the bullying, not assessing which bullying was worse.
It's good to hear from @david_herdson who, as those of us who've been longer than five minutes will remember, was the first to ring the alarm bells for the Conservatives at the 2017 election.
He was an activist there and his journey to the Yorkshire Party is not without relevance for those seeking to identify a post-Johnson profile for the Conservatives.
As to the aim of the YP, does that mean we should have a Hampshire Party, a Surrey Party and a Kent Party? There are models of devolution being touted - one by Surrey leader Tim Oliver for example. One problem is such devolution is an illusion - it's simply the re-concentration of power away from Westminster and Whitehall to County Councils.
Not surprisingly, those at District and Borough Councils aren't hugely enamoured of this or Oliver's words.
I agree with David we need a settlement recognising the proper and independent funding of local Government and the powers and responsibilities at each tier of Government. The problem is the decentralising ideas of Nick Hurd have been supplanted by a renewed desire for centralisation in Conservative circles.
Power may have been repatriated from Brussels but all that has happened is it has found its way to Ministers and the Prime Minister. As recent events have shown, if an attitude of indifference bordering on contempt for existing checks and balances takes hold, a governing party of whatever stripe can do a lot of damage.
I think Johnson is absolutely fecked now. Just waiting for the inevitable downfall
I agree. I said on the day of Hartlepool that that was peak Johnson, and I can't think of any reason to revise that view. A great entertainer, and that's it.
Headed for lecture circuit . . . then cruise ship appearances . . . then dinner theater gigs . . . then Minsk Fringe Festival . . .
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
Agree with all of that. I would add that the political landscape here might look very different if Europe is closed down over the winter whilst the UK remains open more or less without restrictions. Possibly a big if mind.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
I was about to say PMs can hardly blame their Chancellor without looking impotent, but we have seen it happen - such as when something in a budget unravels and we're expected to believe, following a u-turn, that the PM had no real input or final say on what was announced.
He'll share in it if the narrative is that the Treasury was behind the changes, and that can certainly be pushed by the PM's people.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
Another question - how on Earth has Grant Shapps ever made it in politics?
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
They need to go hell for leather on jabbing. We already have the solution, and it's cheap, easy and safe.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
I think there's too much of a desire to divide individuals up into good and evil here.
I think that Rafiq is guilty of not questioning his own assumptions, and the assumptions of those around him, about Jewish people.
Ditto the racist 'banter' in YCCC
I don't think it is helpful to say XY is a RACIST, and must therefore be shunned for life, or drummed out of politics or cricket forever, or whatever. That's a cheap and easy option for those making the accusation, and perhaps for the accused.
Is it more creaetive to consider it as a spectrum like (say) alcoholism, and that everyone is recovering from various forms of prejudice, about which we will only agree sometimes?
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
Another question - how on Earth has Grant Shapps ever made it in politics?
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
Guilty knowledge? That is, who's guilty and of what.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist
He is also a total fucking hypocrite
I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
Referring to someone as a Jew in a third party communication because they are tight-fisted is clearly racist. We don't know if the person is Jewish, quite probably not. It sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, the sort of terminology used in the playground when I was a kid, say 45 years ago.
It is quite clearly different in scale and quality to persistent racial bullying that Azim Rafiq has described.
Katherine Birbalsingh said something along the lines of we are all a bit racist. Yet people get cancelled or have their careers ruined because of a dodgy remark they made a decade ago. We have lost sight of the ancient truth that people are flawed. This is essentially the pursuit of purity; the totalitarian dimension of woke. It has to be completely destroyed, and if this means voting for someone like Farage or Trump, then so be it, because this is a catastrophic way to run a society. We need to get back to the position where people just get corrected and censured when they make a mistake, but there should be redemption: No one should have their lives ruined over things like this.
Which is, I think, pretty well what Rafiq himself has said ? (Without the Trump nonsense.)
Yeah. It is the sane view that most people would hold when forced to seriously think about the issue. But forgiveness and pragmatism is in short supply in the real world; as Ai Wei Wei said, we are already in a authoritarian state, we (or most people) just don't necessarily realise it yet.
I make no apologies in saying that I will vote for whoever is most likely to put an end to this. I regard myself as an anti racist in the true sense; society has to teach people to be aware of and overcome their prejudices. But it is a massive error to think we can rid ourselves of them completely, as the woke naively assume.
Having said that, I'd rather live in a society which is a bit racist, than one where people get effectively banished from society for thinking the wrong thoughts and saying the wrong things. Someone said it is McCarthyism; I would say actually it is more reminiscent of the worst excesses of communism.
"On track for disaster? PM faces all-out Tory mutiny over rail 'betrayal' with fury he is dooming the North to 100 YEARS of misery by axing flagship 'Levelling Up' plans - and demands for MPs to get a free vote"
It doesn't matter if it's a free vote or a whipped vote - the vote they decide to make will be noted and used against them at the next election.
'Levelling up' feels dead in the waters of the rivers Aire and Don tonight to me.
But I have been wrong before.
I think we need to see how it plays out as more detail emerges
Certainly tonight's YouGov with only 28% opposition to the cancellation of HS2E is an early indication that it may not be as unpopular as some hope
Tory voters back the government's decision to scrap the HS2 link from Birmingham to Leeds by 35% to 23% though Labour voters are opposed by 37% to 22%
Absolubtely bonkers that a journalist would think it OK to follow a jury anywhere in a highly charged murder case.
Something the press (I believe this is correct) has absolubtely and always avoided is any sort of jury interaction in this country during a trial. And quite right too. The only person that's half doxxed a jury over here is err... Tommy Robinson I think.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
Another question - how on Earth has Grant Shapps ever made it in politics?
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
Almost certain that he’s been touted on here as a potential Con leader, mind.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
I was about to say PMs can hardly blame their Chancellor without looking impotent, but we have seen it happen - such as when something in a budget unravels and we're expected to believe, following a u-turn, that the PM had no real input or final say on what was announced.
He'll share in it if the narrative is that the Treasury was behind the changes, and that can certainly be pushed by the PM's people.
Can there be any other reason why this dog's breakfast is being presented today other than the dead, cold hand of London-centric Treasury captured Sunak and he agreed to pitch Johnson into the shit along with the North?
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
Another question - how on Earth has Grant Shapps ever made it in politics?
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
The swings he achieved in Welwyn Hatfield in the early 2000s singled him out as a sort of proto-Boris. Perhaps he's been dining out on those ever since.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
It is weird that the PM allowed him to avoid mentioning this in the budget and sharing the blame. Perhaps the PM's lack of interest in planning or detail is not actually an asset in running anything?
It’s strange that today Boris was trying to do PR up North and Shaps was revealing the news in the Commons but Rishi was successfully out of sight
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
Another question - how on Earth has Grant Shapps ever made it in politics?
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
Almost certain that he’s been touted on here as a potential future Con leader, mind.
All the best potential Tory leaders have pretended to be Liberal Democrats at some point.
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
They need to go hell for leather on jabbing. We already have the solution, and it's cheap, easy and safe.
That's true as well, yet the Netherlands has got a second dose rate the same as ours and yet they are registering an equivalent of 100k cases per day and rising, Belgium has a similar rate too and it's hitting 110k equivalent cases in a day. Natural immunity will always play a role in any disease becoming endemic, I think the nations of Europe need to face up to that and accept that, yes, some people who refused the vaccine and some older people for whom the vaccine doesn't work are probably going to die of COVID. It's still about the only decision taken by this government I've supported and still support.
Ultimately, we all need to accept that life now carries a bit more risk than it did in 2019 and will do so for a couple of years while nCov-SARS2 becomes Cov-SARS2. The government scientists definitely got one thing right in May when they realised the extent to which Delta changed the game - every single person in the world will now get COVID, the outcome now depends on vaccine status which brings us back to your point - get jabbing. It also means don't bother containing as well, and we've definitely got that bit right.
"It would be easy after the events of the past two weeks to dismiss the prime minister as a mere sleazy politician. But it would also be unfair. He’s also a venal, self-serving man – and frequently a cruel one, as the remark about Symonds, whom he married only in late May, shows."
Remarkable, even by his standards.
He really is an awful person. I struggle to find anything redeeming about him. I wish the country had listened to Max Hastings' warnings.
Can't resist the cheap laugh, even at the expense of his wife. We have a PM who is a grade A shit.
That’s the most perceptive comment on the topic. I suspect it says nothing about their relationship.
"It would be easy after the events of the past two weeks to dismiss the prime minister as a mere sleazy politician. But it would also be unfair. He’s also a venal, self-serving man – and frequently a cruel one, as the remark about Symonds, whom he married only in late May, shows."
Remarkable, even by his standards.
He really is an awful person. I struggle to find anything redeeming about him. I wish the country had listened to Max Hastings' warnings.
Can't resist the cheap laugh, even at the expense of his wife. We have a PM who is a grade A shit.
That’s the most perceptive comment on the topic. I suspect it says nothing about their relationship.
But confirms that Johnson is a dick
What do you expect? His very name makes it clear; he is A Johnson.
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
Agree with all of that. I would add that the political landscape here might look very different if Europe is closed down over the winter whilst the UK remains open more or less without restrictions. Possibly a big if mind.
I don't think the government gets a boost from it, their base (mostly older people) are in favour of lockdowns and think it's irresponsible to not save every single person from dying of this. It's the under 40s that are more pragmatic and would rebel against lockdowns but the Tories won't find it easy getting our votes after all of the unfair taxes and days such as this where they refuse to invest in the future of the nation in favour of shovelling old people more of our tax.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
I was about to say PMs can hardly blame their Chancellor without looking impotent, but we have seen it happen - such as when something in a budget unravels and we're expected to believe, following a u-turn, that the PM had no real input or final say on what was announced.
He'll share in it if the narrative is that the Treasury was behind the changes, and that can certainly be pushed by the PM's people.
Can there be any other reason why this dog's breakfast is being presented today other than the dead, cold hand of London-centric Treasury captured Sunak and he agreed to pitch Johnson into the shit along with the North?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
I think there's too much of a desire to divide individuals up into good and evil here.
I think that Rafiq is guilty of not questioning his own assumptions, and the assumptions of those around him, about Jewish people.
Ditto the racist 'banter' in YCCC
I don't think it is helpful to say XY is a RACIST, and must therefore be shunned for life, or drummed out of politics or cricket forever, or whatever. That's a cheap and easy option for those making the accusation, and perhaps for the accused.
Is it more creaetive to consider it as a spectrum like (say) alcoholism, and that everyone is recovering from various forms of prejudice, about which we will only agree sometimes?
I agree with most of your post but has anyone on this site actually suggested people must be shunned for life for racism? Has Rafiq? Have YCCC? or the ECB?
Perhaps the odd poster has but Rafiq and the vast majority who are glad things are out in the open are content with changing the future.
Absolubtely bonkers that a journalist would think it OK to follow a jury anywhere in a highly charged murder case.
Something the press (I believe this is correct) has absolubtely and always avoided is any sort of jury interaction in this country during a trial. And quite right too. The only person that's half doxxed a jury over here is err... Tommy Robinson I think.
NBC scrambling back big time and claiming this has nothing to do with them and that the chap is a freelancer who did this off his own back. Possible but, if it comes out, they are lying, there are serious issues here.
Why is st rishi not sharing the blame for the end of levelling up?
I was about to say PMs can hardly blame their Chancellor without looking impotent, but we have seen it happen - such as when something in a budget unravels and we're expected to believe, following a u-turn, that the PM had no real input or final say on what was announced.
He'll share in it if the narrative is that the Treasury was behind the changes, and that can certainly be pushed by the PM's people.
Can there be any other reason why this dog's breakfast is being presented today other than the dead, cold hand of London-centric Treasury captured Sunak and he agreed to pitch Johnson into the shit along with the North?
It could be they're just all very thick?
Maybe. Or they just don't care.
We have reached the stage where this government actually delivering on a single promise should be headline news.
These two maps show the difference between the rail plan northern cities were promised and what we've ended up with.
Some elements of the original plan have remained, but gone is the brand new 40-mile high speed line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, which was at the heart of Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Along with the removal of the eastern leg of HS2, this has been 'watered down' to become a patchwork of a new high speed line from Warrington to Marsden in Yorkshire, via Manchester, tacked on to an upgraded TransPennine rote.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist
He is also a total fucking hypocrite
I have zero interest in softhead prejudiced ravings on this matter. And stop typing 'fucking' the whole time. It's fucking tedious to read. Especially for someone (me) who's just had both booster AND flu jab on the same day.
Ok, let’s make this simple. Given Rafiq’s tweets, do you think he is a racist? Yes or no?
Referring to someone as a Jew in a third party communication because they are tight-fisted is clearly racist. We don't know if the person is Jewish, quite probably not. It sounds a bit old-fashioned to me, the sort of terminology used in the playground when I was a kid, say 45 years ago.
It is quite clearly different in scale and quality to persistent racial bullying that Azim Rafiq has described.
45 years ago, it was acceptable to talk about the 'Banana Boat' and plenty of other things. That doesn't make it right. And Rafiq's comments are not 45 years ago.
Hard to believe but it was acceptable to to talk about tank topped bum boys and piccaninnies with water melon smiles only a few years ago.
The last time I remember hearing that talk was in the 1990s - it died off in the 2000s. Hence why "Life on Mars" was so popular when you had Gene Hunt sprouting the lines
The Times article on Europe's 4th wave is horrific. German scientists calling for the full closure of indoor socialising. I understand why they are given what's happening there, but at the same time I do wonder how they will stop this from becoming a permanent feature of German society. Same as in Austria, the Netherlands Belgium and other countries already locked down or very soon to be locked down. I'm really worried that no one is willing to have the grown up conversation about what living with COVID really means and what COVID being endemic really means.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
Agree with all of that. I would add that the political landscape here might look very different if Europe is closed down over the winter whilst the UK remains open more or less without restrictions. Possibly a big if mind.
I don't think the government gets a boost from it, their base (mostly older people) are in favour of lockdowns and think it's irresponsible to not save every single person from dying of this. It's the under 40s that are more pragmatic and would rebel against lockdowns but the Tories won't find it easy getting our votes after all of the unfair taxes and days such as this where they refuse to invest in the future of the nation in favour of shovelling old people more of our tax.
Maybe. However the government clearly got a vaccine boost in the polls, and much was made of that in the context of comparisons with the rest of Europe. The same may happen to some extent if the UK remains open through the winter.
I think your characterisation of the Tory base is a little too generalised, and in many cases just plain wrong.
Anyway, who needs trains when there are lovely new offences to be introduced.
This is government for the very elderly.
If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.
Totally agree. For many people (myself included) dogs are an integral part of our family and too many have been stolen, causing immense heartache. Criminals were undeterred because the penalties were a joke. Not now.
Conducted - AV of course - for ten important offices:
1. PBer most likely to serve as Minister of Funny Walks in future Conservative ministry.
2. Funniest PBer.
3. Meanest PBer (a real dogfight!)
4. Best new PBer (began posting in past year)
5. Best returned PBer (hint hint)
6. Best PBer of All Time
7. Best "Leon" persona
8, 9 & 10. ____________ (suggestions welcomed!)
1. HYUFD - happy to serve in any capacity, and would passionately commit to any ministry 2. Theuniondivvie/ydoethur 3. Is this to be a badge of pride or shame? As that will affect the answer. I think malcg would be disappointed not to win out. 4. Calendar 12 months? That may exclude a few honourable mentions. 5. SeaShanyIrish (I can take a hint) 6. OGH of course (I'm a suck up) 7. Leon, for persistance.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
I think there's too much of a desire to divide individuals up into good and evil here.
I think that Rafiq is guilty of not questioning his own assumptions, and the assumptions of those around him, about Jewish people.
Ditto the racist 'banter' in YCCC
I don't think it is helpful to say XY is a RACIST, and must therefore be shunned for life, or drummed out of politics or cricket forever, or whatever. That's a cheap and easy option for those making the accusation, and perhaps for the accused.
Is it more creaetive to consider it as a spectrum like (say) alcoholism, and that everyone is recovering from various forms of prejudice, about which we will only agree sometimes?
I agree with most of your post but has anyone on this site actually suggested people must be shunned for life for racism? Has Rafiq? Have YCCC? or the ECB?
Perhaps the odd poster has but Rafiq and the vast majority who are glad things are out in the open are content with changing the future.
The earnings potential of Michael Vaughan etc is crumbled to zero post-this. So, yes, he has effectively been shunned for life. Or at least he will have lifelong effects.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
But it allows them to justify their own racist attitudes so it makes them happy.
I think there's too much of a desire to divide individuals up into good and evil here.
I think that Rafiq is guilty of not questioning his own assumptions, and the assumptions of those around him, about Jewish people.
Ditto the racist 'banter' in YCCC
I don't think it is helpful to say XY is a RACIST, and must therefore be shunned for life, or drummed out of politics or cricket forever, or whatever. That's a cheap and easy option for those making the accusation, and perhaps for the accused.
Is it more creaetive to consider it as a spectrum like (say) alcoholism, and that everyone is recovering from various forms of prejudice, about which we will only agree sometimes?
I agree with most of your post but has anyone on this site actually suggested people must be shunned for life for racism? Has Rafiq? Have YCCC? or the ECB?
Perhaps the odd poster has but Rafiq and the vast majority who are glad things are out in the open are content with changing the future.
You say this, but a couple of days ago Leon posted about 15 examples of where unremarkable, ordinary people had lost their jobs for using racist language, which he unearthed in about 2 minutes on google. Of course, these inconvenient revelations were met with silence and disinterest on PB. So there is obviously a problem which most people are in denial of.
Anyway, who needs trains when there are lovely new offences to be introduced.
This is government for the very elderly.
If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.
Totally agree. For many people (myself included) dogs are an integral part of our family and too many have been stolen, causing immense heartache. Criminals were undeterred because the penalties were a joke. Not now.
We already had such an offence. It’s called “Theft” and carries a maximum sentence of 7 years.
Most of the time we don’t need populist new laws, we just need to enforce the existing ones.
So roughly 4x the cost, for 4x the distance. Never mind the millions more people with access relative to CrossRail.
One gets built. The other doesn't.
Guess what the difference is?
Yep. One is in London, where all MPs live most of the time along with all the civil servants and planners.
Not entirely fair, a large fraction of it is being built.
Building a fraction of a high speed line is just a joke.
As soon as the high speed trains reach the non-high speed, existing rail lines, then capacity will become an issue.
As others have pointed out on here earlier, as soon as the slow stopping chufchuf train from say Derby to Nottingham breaks down then the HS service is no longer high speed.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
Bullying that reduces one groups participation in a sport from something like 30% at recreational level to 3% at professional level clearly has a wider impact than random bullying of an individual.
Both are equally wrong, but their impact and importance at the societal level is different.
What you say is right
But you are misunderstanding my point. If they hadn’t been bullying him about his race it could have been his height or the shape of his ears or anything else. Bullies pick on perceived weaknesses.
For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.
That's important.
It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
It's fairly simple it seems - the bullied can sometimes also bully others. Those subject to racism are not immune from, whether isolated or frequent, doing racist things. He's not seeking to minimise it at least.
Someone being the target of systematic abuse doesn't need to be an angel himself for us to be concerned about the abuse, especially as it's unlikely that he was the only victim. Some of the comments on the internet are clearly delighted and drawing the conclusion that his treatment therefore doesn't matter. They're wrong.
Yes of course. Just as very often child abusers were themselves subject to abuse themselves in childhood. If we require victims to be as pure as angels we will ignore an awful lot of crimes.
I don't think the government gets a boost from it, their base (mostly older people) are in favour of lockdowns and think it's irresponsible to not save every single person from dying of this. It's the under 40s that are more pragmatic and would rebel against lockdowns but the Tories won't find it easy getting our votes after all of the unfair taxes and days such as this where they refuse to invest in the future of the nation in favour of shovelling old people more of our tax.
Maybe. However the government clearly got a vaccine boost in the polls, and much was made of that in the context of comparisons with the rest of Europe. The same may happen to some extent if the UK remains open through the winter.
I think your characterisation of the Tory base is a little too generalised, and in many cases just plain wrong.
Perhaps it's your characterisation of the electorate that's at fault. Yes, the Government got a boost from the relief the vaccinations provided - the realisation there was an end to this and life would resume more or less normally.
However, the world has moved on - the pandemic is for many in the rear mirror and there are new issues coming to the public consciousness and in the last couple of weeks even the most ardent Government supporter would concede it's not been plain sailing though much of that has been self-inflicted.
It's the day-to-day business of government where Johnson and his administration are being found wanting as today's announcements confirm.
Anyway, who needs trains when there are lovely new offences to be introduced.
This is government for the very elderly.
If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.
Totally agree. For many people (myself included) dogs are an integral part of our family and too many have been stolen, causing immense heartache. Criminals were undeterred because the penalties were a joke. Not now.
We already had such an offence. It’s called “Theft” and carries a maximum sentence of 7 years.
Most of the time we don’t need populist new laws, we just need to enforce the existing ones.
Absolutely. Are the police going to investigate is the real question. Most of all people want their pooch back.
No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
A good apology too.
There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.
You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.
These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
Does the fact that it was racist in nature make the bullying uniquely bad?
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
Bullying that reduces one groups participation in a sport from something like 30% at recreational level to 3% at professional level clearly has a wider impact than random bullying of an individual.
Both are equally wrong, but their impact and importance at the societal level is different.
What you say is right
But you are misunderstanding my point. If they hadn’t been bullying him about his race it could have been his height or the shape of his ears or anything else. Bullies pick on perceived weaknesses.
It’s the action, not the intention, that matters
The outcome matters as well. And that is much wider for racist bullying than it is for individual bullying, so one is more newsworthy than the other, even if an HR department should internally treat them similarly.
Comments
It's the sort of mad idea that old reprobate SeanT would have come up with, if he were still around.
On the other announcement, one thought hadn't occurred to me until I looked at some of the detail. This plan, such as it is, would actually massively reduce capacity on the Midland Mainline by putting more and faster express trains on it. Goodbye to any hope of extra trains on any line that runs near Derby, Chesterfield, Nottingham or Loughborough.
And yet it's promising more trains in those areas.
Something doesn't add up here.
Especially since the section that's being shelved is the cheapest section. It would cost around £5 billion. Peanuts compared to Euston's remodelling (although they're scaling that back too, of course).
I am starting to think an investigation of the bank accounts of certain senior ministers and civil servants would be in order, just to ensure there are no mysterious payments from the air transport industry.
What also matters is that, as someone pointed out, he criticised others for claiming not to recollect such abuse only for him to then forget his own tweets.
If you are throwing stones....
True, a significant capacity uplift on the WCML corridor is in itself welcome, but something like 60% of the extra capacity is reliant on HS2's eastern leg being built.
Read more here: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-18/all-racism-is-despicable-pm-says-government-action-needed-on-racism-in-sport https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1461419221905285132/video/1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDh0wc-9hJQ&t=1689s
However, let's take this from other angle. If Moxon, Vaughan or anyone made racist comments / tweets in the past, under your argument, we shouldn't assume they are racist because they may have changed and therefore they should be forgiven, not condemned. Is that a fair assumption?
The arguments for HS2 are much harder to sloganise, because so many of the benefits are secondary effects that depend on understanding how trains work. Such as "You can't have more commuter trains without HS2, because the fast trains take up so much track space".
In short, the HS2 debate has been/is between catchy wrong arguments and right, but wordy arguments that need a bit of trust in professional expertise to accept.
And we all know what happens then.
Then you dig down. Most of it doesn't yet have a detailed business plan, or sign-off from the Treasury. Laughable "warp speed" announcements like Brum - Nottingham in 28 minutes are an outright fraud moving Nottingham to East Mids Parkway. 12 minutes Leeds - Bradford is an "as little as" "target" pending on the business case supporting it.
Its a lie. We scrapped HS2 and NPR because it was too slow and wouldn't connect places. So instead here is a scheme on the same delivery timetable as the scrapped plans that delivers LESS connectivity.
I say cancel the whole bloody thing, but by all means build an ordinary modern rail service there instead, including Yorkshire.
Otherwise, no notes from me.
Isn’t any bullying wrong regardless of the choice of stick?
If you are trying to make the case that objecting very, very strongly to racism is evidence of racism, the chances are very, very strongly that you are a stupid racist c--t.
All of these measures are looking semi-permanent. Some places in Europe have had proper non socially distanced life for over 18 months. I can see now is clearly not the time to go for full unlockdown in Europe but I really hope the governments of Europe learn the lesson and go hell for leather on reopening from April onwards.
Both are equally wrong, but their impact and importance at the societal level is different.
It's the latter bit that has never been mentioned and you can see it in the reports that look at increases in Leeds to London trade and ignore all the increases everywhere in between.
There was a vox pop from a red wall first time Tory voter from 2019. Realises now that he's been shafted by them and taken for a mug. I do hope that he's representative of the many who were duped.
Let's see if we can turn Airedale and Wharfedale red on the back of this. Wouldn't that be nice?
(Well, those bits in West Yorkshire. Skip and Rip would be a bit of a stretch!)
"You promised, Boris" might cut through.
https://paulbigland.blog/2021/11/18/the-integrated-rail-plan-what-a-kin-shambles/
It is depressing how many Treasury officials see fit to appropriate an ever greater share of private wealth to be frittered away on any old nonsense, but consider any slowdown or cancellation of long term infrastructure to be their proudest career achievements. Rishi not up to the job if he still hasn’t figured out the culture at the Treasury.
He really is way better at politics than Boris ever was
I don't think that's especially controversial - all sins are not equal, not all crimes are equally bad just because they are crimes after all. Picking on someone vs picking on someone with racial harrassment for instance are not necessarily equal even though both are wrong.
And is rather irrelevant to the point that was made about separating out racism from the bullying, not assessing which bullying was worse.
It's good to hear from @david_herdson who, as those of us who've been longer than five minutes will remember, was the first to ring the alarm bells for the Conservatives at the 2017 election.
He was an activist there and his journey to the Yorkshire Party is not without relevance for those seeking to identify a post-Johnson profile for the Conservatives.
As to the aim of the YP, does that mean we should have a Hampshire Party, a Surrey Party and a Kent Party? There are models of devolution being touted - one by Surrey leader Tim Oliver for example. One problem is such devolution is an illusion - it's simply the re-concentration of power away from Westminster and Whitehall to County Councils.
Not surprisingly, those at District and Borough Councils aren't hugely enamoured of this or Oliver's words.
I agree with David we need a settlement recognising the proper and independent funding of local Government and the powers and responsibilities at each tier of Government. The problem is the decentralising ideas of Nick Hurd have been supplanted by a renewed desire for centralisation in Conservative circles.
Power may have been repatriated from Brussels but all that has happened is it has found its way to Ministers and the Prime Minister. As recent events have shown, if an attitude of indifference bordering on contempt for existing checks and balances takes hold, a governing party of whatever stripe can do a lot of damage.
He'll share in it if the narrative is that the Treasury was behind the changes, and that can certainly be pushed by the PM's people.
He's a liar, a fool and a failure. He's incoherent, lazy and has never done anything useful in his life. He's Johnson with slightly better articulation.
And he's not only in the House of Commons, but in the Cabinet.
He'd be out of his depth in whatever Handforth Parish Council is calling itself this week.
I think that Rafiq is guilty of not questioning his own assumptions, and the assumptions of those around him, about Jewish people.
Ditto the racist 'banter' in YCCC
I don't think it is helpful to say XY is a RACIST, and must therefore be shunned for life, or drummed out of politics or cricket forever, or whatever. That's a cheap and easy option for those making the accusation, and perhaps for the accused.
Is it more creaetive to consider it as a spectrum like (say) alcoholism, and that everyone is recovering from various forms of prejudice, about which we will only agree sometimes?
I make no apologies in saying that I will vote for whoever is most likely to put an end to this. I regard myself as an anti racist in the true sense; society has to teach people to be aware of and overcome their prejudices. But it is a massive error to think we can rid ourselves of them completely, as the woke naively assume.
Having said that, I'd rather live in a society which is a bit racist, than one where people get effectively banished from society for thinking the wrong thoughts and saying the wrong things. Someone said it is McCarthyism; I would say actually it is more reminiscent of the worst excesses of communism.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/11/18/98559/1
Something the press (I believe this is correct) has absolubtely and always avoided is any sort of jury interaction in this country during a trial. And quite right too. The only person that's half doxxed a jury over here is err... Tommy Robinson I think.
So Liz Truss' many admirers tell me...
Ultimately, we all need to accept that life now carries a bit more risk than it did in 2019 and will do so for a couple of years while nCov-SARS2 becomes Cov-SARS2. The government scientists definitely got one thing right in May when they realised the extent to which Delta changed the game - every single person in the world will now get COVID, the outcome now depends on vaccine status which brings us back to your point - get jabbing. It also means don't bother containing as well, and we've definitely got that bit right.
But confirms that Johnson is a dick
Length ≈ 70 miles
Cost ≈ £20billion
HS2 (as planned in full )
Length ≈ 300 miles
Cost: £80 - 100billion
So roughly 4x the cost, for 4x the distance. Never mind the millions more people with access relative to CrossRail.
One gets built. The other doesn't.
Guess what the difference is?
Yep. One is in London, where all MPs live most of the time along with all the civil servants and planners.
Former cabinet minister Sir Geoffrey Cox earned £54,400 for legal work that he carried out in August, the latest details on MPs' earnings show.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59336581
For some reason, the U.K. doesn’t like to spend money on infrastructure very much.
Perhaps the odd poster has but Rafiq and the vast majority who are glad things are out in the open are content with changing the future.
Conducted - AV of course - for ten important offices:
1. PBer most likely to serve as Minister of Funny Walks in future Conservative ministry.
2. Funniest PBer.
3. Meanest PBer (a real dogfight!)
4. Best new PBer (began posting in past year)
5. Best returned PBer (hint hint)
6. Best PBer of All Time
7. Best "Leon" persona
8, 9 & 10. ____________ (suggestions welcomed!)
We have reached the stage where this government actually delivering on a single promise should be headline news.
These two maps show the difference between the rail plan northern cities were promised and what we've ended up with.
Some elements of the original plan have remained, but gone is the brand new 40-mile high speed line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, which was at the heart of Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Along with the removal of the eastern leg of HS2, this has been 'watered down' to become a patchwork of a new high speed line from Warrington to Marsden in Yorkshire, via Manchester, tacked on to an upgraded TransPennine rote.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-rail-plan-maps-new-22204476
This is government for the very elderly.
If you want to imagine the future, picture an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - for ever.
I think your characterisation of the Tory base is a little too generalised, and in many cases just plain wrong.
Why?
Because it is in London.
This country needs a massive dose of devolution to break the london-based political blackhole.
2. Theuniondivvie/ydoethur
3. Is this to be a badge of pride or shame? As that will affect the answer. I think malcg would be disappointed not to win out.
4. Calendar 12 months? That may exclude a few honourable mentions.
5. SeaShanyIrish (I can take a hint)
6. OGH of course (I'm a suck up)
7. Leon, for persistance.
I mean, there are at least a couple of people apart from me who occasionally come out with funny remarks. But Hyufd would just win that every month.
Most of the time we don’t need populist new laws, we just need to enforce the existing ones.
As soon as the high speed trains reach the non-high speed, existing rail lines, then capacity will become an issue.
As others have pointed out on here earlier, as soon as the slow stopping chufchuf train from say Derby to Nottingham breaks down then the HS service is no longer high speed.
But you are misunderstanding my point. If they hadn’t been bullying him about his race it could have been his height or the shape of his ears or anything else. Bullies pick on perceived weaknesses.
It’s the action, not the intention, that matters
However, nuking YCCC seems a reasonable outcome at this stage.
However, the world has moved on - the pandemic is for many in the rear mirror and there are new issues coming to the public consciousness and in the last couple of weeks even the most ardent Government supporter would concede it's not been plain sailing though much of that has been self-inflicted.
It's the day-to-day business of government where Johnson and his administration are being found wanting as today's announcements confirm.