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EX-PBER DAVID HERDSON JOINS THE YORKSHIRE PARTY – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 18 in General
imageEX-PBER DAVID HERDSON JOINS THE YORKSHIRE PARTY – politicalbetting.com

These are his reasons:

Read the full story here

«1345678

Comments

  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,222
    edited November 18
    The cancellation of much of the HS2 eastern leg is a bit of a kick in the balls for Yorkshire and the area. Although oddly, Derby and Nottingham *may* end up in a slightly better position wrt traffic and upgrades. Perhaps.

    First.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,813
    Surely @david_herdson is a pb-er emeritus, not an ex pb-er?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,975
    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    For eleven years David was the Saturday morning columnist on PB
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    edited November 18
    Just suggested that PM consider invading Heligoland for historical, moral and above all political reasons.

    However, perhaps there's another, better, timelier alternative - invading Yorkshire!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    edited November 18
    Eighth. Like the Yorkshire Party's ambition.
    In Yorkshire.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
  • Why does @david_herdson joining the Yorkshire Party matter? Because there has been a growing movement of voters into local, sub-regional and regional parties. When the big parties don't deliver, find a platform to make your demands.

    Yorkshire has just been utterly screwed by the Integrated Rail Plan, with basic connectivity improvements not even in scope of a plan that reaches out to 2043. Labour did nowt, Tories are doing nowt, why vote for either?

    I've said for a while that the people who abandoned Labour for Brexit and the Tories will then need another new home as the betrayal becomes clear. Today was a Big Step on their journey in recognising they have been screwed.

    All hail the Yorkshire Party, your time has come.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    How does an English parliament help those in Yorkshire who are disappointed by the Conservative government's decisions?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242

    Just suggested that PM consider invading Heligoland for historical, moral and above all political reasons.

    However, perhaps there's another, better, timelier alternative - invading Yorkshire!

    Foolhardy, moving around there is very difficult I hear.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580

    Is there an interview proces to join the Yorkshire Party and what level of childhood luxury is disqualifying?

    Interview to join the Yorkshire Party? Luxury. In my day, if you wanted to join the Yorkshire Party, you had to crawl over hot coals, drink a pint of sulphuric acid, then the existing membership would pelt you with rotten veg and gravel.
    Wasn't it liquor condensed from the coke ovens?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853

    The cancellation of much of the HS2 eastern leg is a bit of a kick in the balls for Yorkshire and the area. Although oddly, Derby and Nottingham *may* end up in a slightly better position wrt traffic and upgrades. Perhaps.

    First.

    Let’s be honest, how much do you think the extension to Nottingham would cost and how likely is something that only caters for Nottingham’s population will be cancelled when the treasury look at the final plan
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Very timely, as their autumn conference is only days away.
  • Question - How much name recognition does David Herdson have in Yorkshire, among folks who take an above-average interest in politics & the like?

    Even if the answer is, not much, could it be that DH's defection to YP at least suggests that a significant stratum of opinion leaders in the North are also swinging in the same direction, at least in the short-term?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    How does an English parliament help those in Yorkshire who are disappointed by the Conservative government's decisions?
    You could have beefed up powers for county and city and unitary authorities too, as I also suggested
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,452
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,462

    Is there an interview proces to join the Yorkshire Party and what level of childhood luxury is disqualifying?

    Interview to join the Yorkshire Party? Luxury. In my day, if you wanted to join the Yorkshire Party, you had to crawl over hot coals, drink a pint of sulphuric acid, then the existing membership would pelt you with rotten veg and gravel.
    Rotten veg ... ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer
    Only because you are making up horror stories to frighten your pensioners in the Home Counties.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    Fpt
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    @rottenborough on your question as to why Johnson is doing this. I found the report of the National Infrastructure Commission published last year that might be informative. In it they recommend the prioritisation of the regional links over the HS2 leg.

    https://nic.org.uk/studies-reports/rail-needs-assessment-for-the-midlands-and-the-north/rna-final-report/

    Indeed. So would it not be good if said regional links were to be prioritised instead of delivered by 2043 providing the business case is made and the treasury of the time decides to spend the money?
    Did you read the report? It talks about delivery in the 2030s and 2040s throughout.
    Yes. Did you? Its the exact same timescale as previous. To deliver less. Whilst promising more.

    It takes a special kind of self-denial to support this.
    My point is the delivery timescale is no different in this report than in the current proposals. The report doesn't say that the investments have to be front loaded to get the benefit, for example. Of course there is the issue about approval, and that is touched in on the report itself.
    *sigh* The political justification for abandoning the plan is because this new plan can be delivered quicker. Except that when you read the document you notice two things. That it is not a plan - no business case done, not approved by the treasury - and that it is no faster.

    Again - there is no benefit. When you run faster trains on congested lines you can run fewer trains. Some claimed journey time gains (Liverpool - Manchester) are net zero to now. Others (Manchester to York, Leeds to Bradford) are being torn apart by the rivet counters. And Birmingham to Nottingham moves Nottingham to Radcliffe-upon-Soar.
    OK, so when the report says "Prioritising regional links is likely to deliver the most benefits", they were just making it up?
    Yes because when you drill into the report it is based on fantasies.

    Let’s look at the idea of more tracks between Leeds and Manchester. At the points they are needed housing and industry sit alongside the existing tracks to the extent that you would need to buy 100s of homes just to add a mile of track.
  • Is there an interview proces to join the Yorkshire Party and what level of childhood luxury is disqualifying?

    Interview to join the Yorkshire Party? Luxury. In my day, if you wanted to join the Yorkshire Party, you had to crawl over hot coals, drink a pint of sulphuric acid, then the existing membership would pelt you with rotten veg and gravel.
    Is the soft regime you've just described, exactly the kind of wokeish laxity that HYUFD is striving mightily to purge from the Tory Party?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,755
    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
    At least there's a logical endpoint to the SNP or Plaid Cymru. Unless I've misunderstood, the Yorkshire Party isn't advocating independence. So it's a sort of geographical stay-and-complain platform, right?
    I have profound concerns about that type of localism. When you're voting on national issues from a nakedly localist platform, it is very easy to end up with NIMBYism and pork-barrel politics. The bit about "losing out to the North West" all strikes me as a worrying piece of zero-sum politicking. I think it works against the goal of having a national-level joined-up strategy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501

    Question - How much name recognition does David Herdson have in Yorkshire, among folks who take an above-average interest in politics & the like?

    Even if the answer is, not much, could it be that DH's defection to YP at least suggests that a significant stratum of opinion leaders in the North are also swinging in the same direction, at least in the short-term?

    We are entirely used to getting the shitty end of the stick. In fact, we expect no less.
    This time, uniquely, we were assured it would be pristine.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,643
    edited November 18
    Yorkshire has at least started toward devolution.

    Tracey Brabin runs what is effectively “Greater Leeds-Bradford” and Dan Jarvis “Greater Sheffield”.

    All they need is someone to run “York and the North Riding”, and “Greater Hull”.

    Oh, and some actual money / authority.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    If you have unitaries, which I am a big supporter of, then more powers to towns and parishes is essential in my book, the two should go together.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    How does an English parliament help those in Yorkshire who are disappointed by the Conservative government's decisions?
    You could have beefed up powers for county and city and unitary authorities too, as I also suggested
    Ok, sounds sensible enough, but I still don't see where the English Parliament comes into the picture.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer
    Only because you are making up horror stories to frighten your pensioners in the Home Counties.
    No it is very real.

    The West Lothian question has never really been an issue since devolution in 1999 as we have either had a New Labour government with a majority in England or a Conservative government or Conservative led government from 2010-15 and 2017-19 with a majority in England too.

    As soon as we do get a Labour minority government without a majority in England, which current polls suggest is very possible, it will become a major issue in England, especially as is likely Starmer would require the SNP to vote on English laws in return for indyref2 and devomax
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,452
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    The liberal in you is trying to get out there hyufd. Localism, devolution, we will have you converted in no time.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,454

    Why does @david_herdson joining the Yorkshire Party matter? Because there has been a growing movement of voters into local, sub-regional and regional parties. When the big parties don't deliver, find a platform to make your demands.

    Yorkshire has just been utterly screwed by the Integrated Rail Plan, with basic connectivity improvements not even in scope of a plan that reaches out to 2043. Labour did nowt, Tories are doing nowt, why vote for either?

    I've said for a while that the people who abandoned Labour for Brexit and the Tories will then need another new home as the betrayal becomes clear. Today was a Big Step on their journey in recognising they have been screwed.

    All hail the Yorkshire Party, your time has come.

    Yorkshire's one of the few areas of England where regional identification is strong enough to make a party vaguely viable. A Nottinghamshire Party would I think be met with bemusement, and a Surrey Party with outright derision. Where else might a local party have traction? I could imagine a London Party, arguing that the capital has needs not recognised by the national parties.

    Incidentally, a fiercely-fought Town Council by-election in my ward of Binscombe tonight - Tories vs Greens (a Green councillor stood down due to illness, and Labour and LibDems as coalition partners decided to let them have a clear run). Jeremy Hunt has been taking an active interest.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    How does an English parliament help those in Yorkshire who are disappointed by the Conservative government's decisions?
    You could have beefed up powers for county and city and unitary authorities too, as I also suggested
    Ok, sounds sensible enough, but I still don't see where the English Parliament comes into the picture.
    That's because the Tories want to safeguard a power base for themselves. Like Labour under Blair suddenly decided that reconvening the Scottish Parliament was a good idea.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    edited November 18
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
    At least there's a logical endpoint to the SNP or Plaid Cymru. Unless I've misunderstood, the Yorkshire Party isn't advocating independence. So it's a sort of geographical stay-and-complain platform, right?
    I have profound concerns about that type of localism. When you're voting on national issues from a nakedly localist platform, it is very easy to end up with NIMBYism and pork-barrel politics. The bit about "losing out to the North West" all strikes me as a worrying piece of zero-sum politicking. I think it works against the goal of having a national-level joined-up strategy.
    On the other hand, being poked with a shitty stick can only be tolerated for so long, especially after the transport and social care news. It'll be interesting to see if the Northumberland Party finds a modern successor today.

    Edit: but yes, definitely Home Rule within the UK.
  • Speaking of the balkanization of Britain, yours truly has been warning PBers for years against the rising threat of extreme Cornish Nationalism and it's ultimate goal of Kernow Lebensraum via the "East Cornwall Co-Prosperity Sphere" extending from the Tamar to the Shepard's Bush Roundabout.

    Perhaps to short-circuit this danger, HMG should invest the moneys saved by screwing the North, into a 22nd-century pneumatic tube service for the Southwest?

    Victoria Station to Land's End in 15 minutes - wooooooosh!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999.

    52% of Leave voters also back an English Parliament
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    The liberal in you is trying to get out there hyufd. Localism, devolution, we will have you converted in no time.
    Even Cameron was allegedly a localism fan
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,701

    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    Christ, given what the Germans have done in the past, you have to be pretty terrified of what that involves
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,395
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    Well I've always favoured an independent London!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_independence
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,222
    eek said:

    The cancellation of much of the HS2 eastern leg is a bit of a kick in the balls for Yorkshire and the area. Although oddly, Derby and Nottingham *may* end up in a slightly better position wrt traffic and upgrades. Perhaps.

    First.

    Let’s be honest, how much do you think the extension to Nottingham would cost and how likely is something that only caters for Nottingham’s population will be cancelled when the treasury look at the final plan
    There never has been a plan for an extension to Nottingham (well, except as an option for the route to go through Nottingham in the very early days; there was another one to route it through Derby). The current 'plan', announced today, is for a station further south than Toton, where the station was going to be. The new HS line will end there, but the siting of the new station will allow classic-compatible trains to follow existing tracks (newly electrified) to Derby and Nottingham.

    Essentially, it's a new Trent station. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_railway_station

    This new plan is not as good as the original for a piece of national infrastructure; it may well end up being better for Derby, Nottingham and perhaps Leicester.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer
    Only because you are making up horror stories to frighten your pensioners in the Home Counties.
    No it is very real.

    The West Lothian question has never really been an issue since devolution in 1999 as we have either had a New Labour government with a majority in England or a Conservative government or Conservative led government from 2010-15 and 2017-19 with a majority in England too.

    As soon as we do get a Labour minority government without a majority in England, which current polls suggest is very possible, it will become a major issue in England, especially as is likely Starmer would require the SNP to vote on English laws in return for indyref2 and devomax
    So it's been OK for the Scots to suck it up for centuries, but suddenly a human rights crime for what will be a minority of English voters (in the scenario you invoke)?

    Dammit, you're a unionist. and a conservative. You should believe in MPs' bums on seats being the determinant. And MPs from all over the UK for UK-wide matters.


    The individual policies are a different matter. You're just fantasising.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,643
    edited November 18
    The English Parliament only makes sense if you wish to dissolve the U.K.

    Otherwise, it wouldn’t work for the same reason the Prussian government didn’t work for Germany.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    CatMan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    Well I've always favoured an independent London!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_independence
    London already has its own Mayor and Assembly unlike Essex and Yorkshire
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
    At least there's a logical endpoint to the SNP or Plaid Cymru. Unless I've misunderstood, the Yorkshire Party isn't advocating independence. So it's a sort of geographical stay-and-complain platform, right?
    I have profound concerns about that type of localism. When you're voting on national issues from a nakedly localist platform, it is very easy to end up with NIMBYism and pork-barrel politics. The bit about "losing out to the North West" all strikes me as a worrying piece of zero-sum politicking. I think it works against the goal of having a national-level joined-up strategy.
    On the other hand, being poked with a shitty stick can only be tolerated for so long, especially after the transport and social care news. It'll be interesting to see if the Northumberland Party finds a modern successor today.

    Edit: but yes, definitely Home Rule within the UK.
    Yorkshire voted Conservative in 2019. This is their government.

    The Conservative manifesto said
    HS2 is a great ambition, but will now cost at least £81 billion and will not reach Leeds or Manchester until as late as 2040. We will consider the findings of the Oakervee review into costs and timings and work with leaders of the Midlands and the North to decide the optimal outcome.

    If anyone's poked Yorkshire with a shitty stick, it's Yorkshire.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,701
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.

    I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,452
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    The liberal in you is trying to get out there hyufd. Localism, devolution, we will have you converted in no time.
    Even Cameron was allegedly a localism fan
    Yeah but he was really a wishy-washy liberal and not a red blooded Tory. :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,925
    edited November 18
    The interesting for me is that David voted Tory in 2019 because he thought Corbyn would be worse, this is a vote loss for the Tories.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,504
    edited November 18

    The interesting for me is that David voted Tory in 2019 because he thought Corbyn would be worse, this is vote loss for the Tories.

    Corbyn would have been worse. A 2019 Tory vote remains sound.
    Don't see any particular reason to vote for them next time, mind.
  • My ambition is to be the first Governor of Yorkshire and ultimately the UK's first directly elected Dictator.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,701
    Re what was talked about before on the possible political upside from cancelling the route to Leeds:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-59333321

    From a purely political standpoint, it probably does help the Tories:

    - who is pissed off - politically engaged urban types who would never vote Labour
    - what does it stop - London commuters moving north to take advantage of cheaper house prices - probably vote Labour anyway but would push urban locals to the suburbs where arguably they would dilute Tory majorities
    - who is pleased - voters who stand in the way of the line but who wouldn’t benefit
  • tomfantomfan Posts: 21
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.

    I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
    Roger's post was spot on. That this would spiral out of control and damage pretty much everybody concerned was entirely predictable. Rafiq's mate Ateeq Javid 's career will almost certainly be finished by their exchange of tweets.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    Hooray, everything in politics ends up in the stinking EU referendum sump eventually.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
    At least there's a logical endpoint to the SNP or Plaid Cymru. Unless I've misunderstood, the Yorkshire Party isn't advocating independence. So it's a sort of geographical stay-and-complain platform, right?
    I have profound concerns about that type of localism. When you're voting on national issues from a nakedly localist platform, it is very easy to end up with NIMBYism and pork-barrel politics. The bit about "losing out to the North West" all strikes me as a worrying piece of zero-sum politicking. I think it works against the goal of having a national-level joined-up strategy.
    On the other hand, being poked with a shitty stick can only be tolerated for so long, especially after the transport and social care news. It'll be interesting to see if the Northumberland Party finds a modern successor today.

    Edit: but yes, definitely Home Rule within the UK.
    Yorkshire voted Conservative in 2019. This is their government.

    The Conservative manifesto said
    HS2 is a great ambition, but will now cost at least £81 billion and will not reach Leeds or Manchester until as late as 2040. We will consider the findings of the Oakervee review into costs and timings and work with leaders of the Midlands and the North to decide the optimal outcome.

    If anyone's poked Yorkshire with a shitty stick, it's Yorkshire.
    Actually they didn't. ISTR Labour won most seats in Y+H, as in all 3 of the Northern regions, despite the way some Tories like to talk. Albeit with fewer votes in Y+H.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
    Certainly we did a straw poll of Tory members in Epping Forest and the majority backed an English Parliament so I would dispute that (especially when you add the 34% of Remainers who back an English Parliament too and the fact the Tory Party is dominated by Leavers now).

    If Starmer becomes PM with SNP confidence and supply I would expect a majority of Tory MPs to move to back an English Parliament within a few years
  • German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    I wonder if Merkel and Olaf have realised why Britain after opening up during the Summer is facing a better winter than Germany yet?

    Olaf should have been saying "let's go bring back summer".
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,585

    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    Yes, drastic measures are needed if Merkel is to be replaced before Spring 2022.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The interesting for me is that David voted Tory in 2019 because he thought Corbyn would be worse, this is vote loss for the Tories.

    Corbyn would have been worse. A 2019 Tory vote remains sound.
    Don't see any particular reason to vote for them next time, mind.
    Other exciting thing, we may have by election in Wakefield soon, David will be our man on the spot.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,946
    edited November 18
    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    Herdson was a regular poster here and a strong Conservative until they were taken over by clowns and ne'er-do-wells at which point he left the Party writing a very eloquent resignation letter. He is also an astute political obserever. In things Consevative probably the most astute on PB.

    Herdson for Mayor!

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    Hooray, everything in politics ends up in the stinking EU referendum sump eventually.
    What astounds me is the idea that an English Parliament is Conservative Party policy at all. What have I missed??
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Surely @david_herdson is a pb-er emeritus, not an ex pb-er?

    Recovering PBer more like it!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
    Certainly we did a straw poll of Tory members in Epping Forest and the majority backed an English Parliament so I would dispute that (especially when you add the 34% of Remainers who back an English Parliament too and the fact the Tory Party is dominated by Leavers now).

    If Starmer becomes PM with SNP confidence and supply I would expect a majority of Tory MPs to move to back an English Parliament within a few years
    If, If, If.

    That's like the Tory Party suddenly deciding Brexit was a bad idea.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18

    The English Parliament only makes sense if you wish to dissolve the U.K.

    Otherwise, it wouldn’t work for the same reason the Prussian government didn’t work for Germany.

    Rubbish, not having an English Parliament is more likely to. There was nothing wrong with the parliament of Prussia, it was Kaiser Wilhelm's trying to remain King of Prussia even if not of Germany after WW1 that led to its dissolution.

    If we are going to have a Federal UK in all but name then we need an English Parliament with the same powers Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff have.

    Otherwise scrap Holyrood, Stormont and Cardiff and restore Westminster as the only Parliament for the whole Union of the UK
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 19
    I wish Yorkshire and David Herdson well; any voice (any reasonable voice, as David Herdson's will be) against the stranglehold of Tory and Labour anywhere.

    I fear that Wessex Nationalism would not be a serious contender, although we do need some way of expressing our reservations about London's dominance in the South and West.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    I don't know who David Herdson is, but I fully support his right to totally waste his vote.

    That's what the kind ones used to say about the SNP. I'm not so sure that the events of the last few days haven't put the collar on the whippet for a lot of Yorkshire folk.
    At least there's a logical endpoint to the SNP or Plaid Cymru. Unless I've misunderstood, the Yorkshire Party isn't advocating independence. So it's a sort of geographical stay-and-complain platform, right?
    I have profound concerns about that type of localism. When you're voting on national issues from a nakedly localist platform, it is very easy to end up with NIMBYism and pork-barrel politics. The bit about "losing out to the North West" all strikes me as a worrying piece of zero-sum politicking. I think it works against the goal of having a national-level joined-up strategy.
    On the other hand, being poked with a shitty stick can only be tolerated for so long, especially after the transport and social care news. It'll be interesting to see if the Northumberland Party finds a modern successor today.

    Edit: but yes, definitely Home Rule within the UK.
    Yorkshire voted Conservative in 2019. This is their government.

    The Conservative manifesto said
    HS2 is a great ambition, but will now cost at least £81 billion and will not reach Leeds or Manchester until as late as 2040. We will consider the findings of the Oakervee review into costs and timings and work with leaders of the Midlands and the North to decide the optimal outcome.

    If anyone's poked Yorkshire with a shitty stick, it's Yorkshire.
    Actually they didn't. ISTR Labour won most seats in Y+H, as in all 3 of the Northern regions, despite the way some Tories like to talk. Albeit with fewer votes in Y+H.
    So yeah, 43%-39%. Y+H voted Conservative
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
    Certainly we did a straw poll of Tory members in Epping Forest and the majority backed an English Parliament so I would dispute that (especially when you add the 34% of Remainers who back an English Parliament too and the fact the Tory Party is dominated by Leavers now).

    If Starmer becomes PM with SNP confidence and supply I would expect a majority of Tory MPs to move to back an English Parliament within a few years

    Also, on a specific point of fact: you're forgetting the many more Remainers who dont' back one. They have to be added in the balance too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    I'm from Yorkshire, and I used to like DH's headers, but for me this is a wrong turning. The last thing I want to see is an explosion in geographical identity politics within England. Labour needs to develop a serious platform for devolving wealth & power away from London and the Home Counties, then the regions who'd benefit need to vote Labour.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609
    edited November 18
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.

    I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
    There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.

    Though we do get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    Localism 2011 already provides the power of general competence, provided your clerk has the necessary qualification. All you need to do it offer to take over stuff from your district council that they can’t afford to run properly, then push up the precept to cover off the costs. Most district councils will be delighted to oblige.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    Pulpstar said:

    The interesting for me is that David voted Tory in 2019 because he thought Corbyn would be worse, this is vote loss for the Tories.

    Corbyn would have been worse. A 2019 Tory vote remains sound.
    Don't see any particular reason to vote for them next time, mind.
    It was sound for one reason - to end the Brexit impasse. Soon as that was done we should have gone back to the polls with Johnson disqualified from standing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 18
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
    Certainly we did a straw poll of Tory members in Epping Forest and the majority backed an English Parliament so I would dispute that (especially when you add the 34% of Remainers who back an English Parliament too and the fact the Tory Party is dominated by Leavers now).

    If Starmer becomes PM with SNP confidence and supply I would expect a majority of Tory MPs to move to back an English Parliament within a few years

    Also, on a specific point of fact: you're forgetting the many more Remainers who dont' back one. They have to be added in the balance too.
    The vast majority of Remainers are now voting Labour, LD or SNP or Green not Tory.

    The few 2016 Remainers still voting Tory like me will be the ones most likely to back an English Parliament like me and the Leaver majority within the Tory party
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 189

    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    I wonder if Merkel and Olaf have realised why Britain after opening up during the Summer is facing a better winter than Germany yet?

    Olaf should have been saying "let's go bring back summer".
    Well if that doesn't create sympathy for anti-vaxxers I don't know what would.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited November 18
    kinabalu said:

    I'm from Yorkshire, and I used to like DH's headers, but for me this is a wrong turning. The last thing I want to see is an explosion in geographical identity politics within England. Labour needs to develop a serious platform for devolving wealth & power away from London and the Home Counties, then the regions who'd benefit need to vote Labour.

    I don't particular mind which party it benefits and who they vote for, but I heartily endorse the sentiment that an explosion of geographical identity politics is the last thing we need. Most of the time its based on fantasy imaginings of county/region identity in any case.
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    Localism 2011 already provides the power of general competence, provided your clerk has the necessary qualification. All you need to do it offer to take over stuff from your district council that they can’t afford to run properly, then push up the precept to cover off the costs. Most district councils will be delighted to oblige.
    Most parishes are not interested, and the process is not particularly straightforward in many instances, but I am sure it can be encouraged and improved. A lot of places only see their purpose as having the lowest precept possible, not to do stuff though. And with loads of parishes with no councils, or with barely 100 electors, obviously some are just never going to take on more - and in 100 years government has not been interested in cobbling parishes together into more sizable entities, if it means artificially grouping them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    It becomes difficult. For example, take the claims on drinking. Is that racist or not? Arguably, I would say the majority factor was not, mainly that he was forced to drink not because he was Muslim but because that was what the players considered “normal” behaviour. It was though offensive to his religious beliefs.

    I never thought I would say this but I agree with Roger’s post 100%
    There used to be quite a pub culture when I started in medicine, with us all piling down the pub after the Friday PM teaching for a few pints. That is history now, as the feminisation and multiculturalism nature of the department makes that pub culture increasingly archaic.

    Though we de get a good turnout at the Christmas party from a diverse department. Santa arrived with bhangra dancing reindeer...
    I can remember when office workers piled down the pub at lunchtime - never so ideal in medicine, I guess - and when the pre-Christmas week was one departmental party after another; most of them were well underway by 3pm. The ‘80s - happy days.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    I'm all in favour of regional govt as long as we have unitary councils otherwise too many layers. Regardless I am in favour of unitary councils.
    I am not opposed to unitary councils, though I would like beefed up powers for town and parish councils too.

    That way we get real localism
    Localism 2011 already provides the power of general competence, provided your clerk has the necessary qualification. All you need to do it offer to take over stuff from your district council that they can’t afford to run properly, then push up the precept to cover off the costs. Most district councils will be delighted to oblige.
    Not given the arguments between district and town council in my area and indeed many others
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    Really?

    "BNO Newsroom
    @BNODesk
    BREAKING: Austria's Salzburg and Upper Austria expanding lockdown to include vaccinated people
    4:03 PM · Nov 18, 2021·TweetDeck"

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1461364403173924877
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,580
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    But I'm talking about 1999.

    And as for today, the data you adduce point to a minority of Tories now wanting an English Pmt (almost certainly).
    Certainly we did a straw poll of Tory members in Epping Forest and the majority backed an English Parliament so I would dispute that (especially when you add the 34% of Remainers who back an English Parliament too and the fact the Tory Party is dominated by Leavers now).

    If Starmer becomes PM with SNP confidence and supply I would expect a majority of Tory MPs to move to back an English Parliament within a few years

    Also, on a specific point of fact: you're forgetting the many more Remainers who dont' back one. They have to be added in the balance too.
    The vast majority of Remainers are now voting Labour, LD or SNP or Green not Tory.

    The few 2016 Remainers still voting Tory like me will be the ones most likely to back an English Parliament like me and the Leaver majority within the Tory party
    Not party policy, though. "Vote Tory or I'll shoot the kitten/destroy the Constitution even more!" is hardly a conservative slogan, is it?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,888
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    52% of Leave voters is not even 26% of the population so a rather pointless statistic.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    52% of Leave voters is not even 26% of the population so a rather pointless statistic.
    Well he was accused of being a bad Tory, so it seems like a reasonable subsample to compare to given the correlation between Leave/Tory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    Yes, drastic measures are needed if Merkel is to be replaced before Spring 2022.
    They've still not sorted that yet?

    Would it have made any different if The Left had not gotten their portion of seats? As I recall they scraped over the line by the barest of margins.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    German Vice-Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who's expected to succeed Merkel: "To get through the winter, we'll see drastic measures that have not been taken before" - REU

    https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1461399343928422409

    I wonder if Merkel and Olaf have realised why Britain after opening up during the Summer is facing a better winter than Germany yet?

    Olaf should have been saying "let's go bring back summer".
    Don't count your chickens. It looks pretty shitty here if you look at the pressures on the NHS. The 4 hour wait figures in ED are horrible, as are the Ambulance waits to unload. Germany may get more cases but they have better staffing and more spare capacity.

  • Isn't one issue with any prospective English parliament with any substantial power, the same as the problem of Prussia in Germany from unification to WW2?

    Namely having a serious sub-national government with well over half of the national territory, population, economy, etc.

    Which is one reason why the Bundesrepublik consists of ländern groß und klein, similar in this respect to US or Brazil.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,643

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting. Perhaps we should have an Essex party too? Or just expanded powers for county/unitary councils to make them closer to those of Scotland and Wales and NI's legislature? Or better still an English Parliament for much of English domestic policy and just make Westminster the UK Federal parliament

    The problem with that argument is that Mr Johnson's policies on transport and social care ARE English policies in strict law and practical administration.
    For now, if Starmer becomes PM and offers the SNP indyref2 and devomax to get legislation through then Scottish MPs will start voting on English laws to keep Starmer in office and England will be the only home nation without its own parliament if it gets a UK government it did not vote for
    Fantasy scaremongering. Unlike what is happening now.
    On current polling a very strong possibility actually.

    We would swifty move from 'Scotland is being ignored' under PM Boris to 'England is being ignored' under a PM Starmer, especially if England still had a Conservative majority and Starmer was reliant on the SNP to get legislation through.

    It would be worse for England as it would not have its own equivalent of Holyrood
    Your party has been opposing a separate parliament for England for decades. Bit late to change your mind about what happens when a not big enough minority of voters in England vote Tory.
    I have supported an English Parliament ever since 1999
    In other words, you've been a bad Tory, no? Seriously, I don't think it was Tory party policy then.
    52% of Leave voters back an English Parliament and the vast majority of Tory voters and members now voted Leave in 2016

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208859
    52% of Leave voters is not even 26% of the population so a rather pointless statistic.
    This is HYUFD.
    He lives in a Spockian fantasy of pointless statistics.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    So the guy who complains about ‘inhuman racism’ is a fucking racist

    He is also a total fucking hypocrite


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,248
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.
    How about not making clearly racists statements to people?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,222
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    IMV it does have bearing. It shows that the problems with racism might be (ahem) more multi-faceted than he was willing to share. Racism may not just be a problem towards people from the India/Pakistan region, or Muslims, but towards other groups as well.

    That's important.

    It also shows he's somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps not the most reliable witness to events.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,643
    edited November 18

    Isn't one issue with any prospective English parliament with any substantial power, the same as the problem of Prussia in Germany from unification to WW2?

    Namely having a serious sub-national government with well over half of the national territory, population, economy, etc.

    Which is one reason why the Bundesrepublik consists of ländern groß und klein, similar in this respect to US or Brazil.

    Absolutely.

    Devolution to “England” means that any English First Minister would eventually come into conflict with any U.K. Prime Minister, and the result would be the break up of the U.K.

    There is no perfect answer to the West Lothian question, but the best answer IMO is to properly devolve to counties and metros, leaving Westminster to focus largely on foreign policy and overall tax policy etc.
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 19
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm from Yorkshire, and I used to like DH's headers, but for me this is a wrong turning. The last thing I want to see is an explosion in geographical identity politics within England. Labour needs to develop a serious platform for devolving wealth & power away from London and the Home Counties, then the regions who'd benefit need to vote Labour.

    I don't particular mind which party it benefits and who they vote for, but I heartily endorse the sentiment that an explosion of geographical identity politics is the last thing we need. Most of the time its based on fantasy imaginings of county/region identity in any case.
    If our national parties continue to be seen as attacking local concerns, then we will see an increase in geographical identity politics (good phrase). This may be a pity, but see Scotland, where FPTP in Westminster combined with general discontent created a local electoral earthquake.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,813
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:

    Bit of a twist in the tale..

    Say it isn't so
    No, he has confirmed it is, and is ashamed of his behaviour. What more do you want him to do?
    A good apology too.

    There's a difference between bad remarks made by people years ago that they apologise for when brought up - and doing racist stuff today and covering it up when people complain.
    Sure, but isn't this whole story about what people did years ago?
    No, the Rafiq stuff is about now.

    You've got people in charge at Yorkshire right now who think using Zimbo for Zimbabwe is racist and worth of disciplinary action but calling someone a Paki isn't.
    The problem with this 'find the racist game' is that it's open to any number of players and can veer in unexpected directions as Rafiq is now finding out. His testimony has effectively wrecked the career of an ex England captain and exposed himself as not only a racist but a hypocrite so will probably wreck his own future career as well.

    These witch hunts are extremely ugly and should be stopped before they get out of hand. An unpopular cricketer was bullied under the noses of his employers and for this they have questions to answer. But leave the racism out of it.

    How does one separate the racism from the bullying when the nature of the bullying was racist?
    For me that Rafiq has said antisemitic things has no bearing on what he's revealed about racism in cricket. What it does do is provide material for the next muslim-baiting Rod Liddle column. He'll be tapping away now, I imagine.
    Wholly phuck. Racism is racism, but antisemitism is just a pretext for racists to hide behind?

    The most disappointing post I have seen in 12 years of PBing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    agingjb2 said:

    I wish Yorkshire and David Herdson well; any voice (any reasonable voice, as David Herdson's will be) against the stranglehold of Tory and Labour anywhere.

    I fear that Wessex Nationalism would not be a serious contender, although we do need some way of expressing our reservations about London's dominance in the South and West.

    I see 1983 was the heyday for Wessex Regionalists, standing 10 candidates.

    If wiki is to be believed the first ever candidate for them was none other than Alexander Thynn, future Marquess of Bath and owner of Longleat!
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