Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

YouGov finds overwhelming support for NHS staff to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 26 in General
imageYouGov finds overwhelming support for NHS staff to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com

At some stage this has to be implemented. There is overwhelming public backing as the polling shows and it would give a strong signal of the Government’s intent.

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,022
    Also, if NHS staff have to be double vaccinated, does that mean they have to be given three months off if they start now while they wait for their second dose? Paid or unpaid?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    edited October 26
    Celebs too. Haven't seen any of that this time around.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Welcome @BigAl.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    edited October 26
    Good morning

    I have no doubt that it should be implemented.

    Furthermore, and as I mentioned last night, where does the duty of care come into this and the legal liability where an unvaccinated health care person is identified as having passed covid to a patient who subsequently dies

    I know there are plenty of lawyers on this forum and I would be interested in their view on this point
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Morning and cracking first post.

    Agree entirely.

    Vaccine passports violate peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies which, for a board which is so full of people who hold sovereignty in such special regard, begs the question why they are so well supported on PB.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    Fishing said:

    Also, if NHS staff have to be double vaccinated, does that mean they have to be given three months off if they start now while they wait for their second dose? Paid or unpaid?

    I assume this rule would be introduced with three months (or eight weeks) notice, so that those currently unvaccinated would have time to comply.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    edited October 26
    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really
  • BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Welcome to PB

    I would just say that vaccine passports are already mandated in Scotland and Wales
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Hello!

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."

    "Lower risk of being infected" is the key point here. One needs to catch the thing in the first place befgore one can pass it on.

    And therefore the unvaccinated are more likely to catch it and pass it on.

    But more crucially they are far more likely to get it bad and clutter up the hospitals which everyone else needs. And knacker the doctors and nurses unnecessarily (in the case of the wilful antivaxxers).

    HMG are evidently relying solely on the vaccine rather than behaviour, mask wearing, etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    First of all, welcome.

    As far as the above is concerned, first of all, vaccinated individuals are considerably less likely than unvaccinated to become infected in the first place.

    As for 'masking symptoms', I'm not sure about the relative incidence of asymptomatic cases between unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals (anyone ?), but asymptomatic cases are certainly common (about 1 in 3, I think) among the unvaccinated as well.

    And recent research strongly suggests that persistence of disease in asymptomatic vaccinated individuals is of far shorter duration than in symptomatic cases.
    https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-3486
    ...All 33 asymptomatic case patients tested negative the day after the initial positive result, and all negative results were confirmed on a third NPS 2 days afterward. In contrast, symptomatic cases cleared after a mean of 11 days. The mean IgG level was twice as high in the asymptomatic than the symptomatic group...
  • It is a very sad story to be fair involving his wife's suicide
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    edited October 26
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Welcome. When you say 'gentle', do you mean in the sense of Corbyn's kinder gentler politics? We're not normally that nasty :wink:

    I seem to remember a study that showed while peak viral shedding was similar in infected vaccinated and unvaccinated, it dropped off much faster in the vaccinated (makes sense, body deals with infection faster) and so the total shedding over period of infection would be much lower in vaccinated.

    On the substantive point though, I tend to agree. The case numbers are likely (I don't know this, obviously) mostly due to infections in the very young whom we've only recently recommended the vaccine to. I'm not sure the older refuseniks are much to blame for the numbers. There is an argument around higher resource use by the unvaccinated - if we have a problem with health service collapse that needs restrictions, then it will be largely due to the unvaccinated. But, as others have suggested, I'd go for the universal bribe to get vaccinated over the stick, if we need it. I'm also fairly relaxed about people who have had at least one vaccination. They're less likely to be crashing the NHS, which is my only concern really going forwards. If people choose to limit their vaccinations and take their chances, that's their own choice.

    Edit: Heh, so you've had umpteen people making the same points about infectiousness duration etc. Hopefully a gentle pile on though :smile:
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,602
    BigAl said:


    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    Welcome to the site, @BigAl . IIUC although some studies find the peak viral load from an infected person is the same whether vaccinated or not, you're less likely to be infected in the first place if you're vaccinated, and also you're not infectious for as long, because your body beats the virus faster.

    So we'd expect that vaccinated people would be less of a transmission risk than unvaccinated people, and that's also what the contract tracing data shows.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Walter Smith RIP.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Welcome to the site, Mr. Al.

    Must say I agree with you in opposing the draconian policy of social/occupational ostracism for those who take a free choice not to be vaccinated. They're risking their life more than anyone else's.

    I do support vaccines, but compulsion by the state backed up by a tyrannical intrusive and controlling policy of electronic surveillance is not something I can back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
    Carnyx said:

    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Hello!

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."....
    Also 'can carry', and 'carry' are not the same thing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Hello!

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."....
    Also 'can carry', and 'carry' are not the same thing.
    Thanks! Some other nice constructive responses this morning.
  • FPT
    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
  • The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters
  • The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Makes one despair
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    dixiedean said:

    Celebs too. Haven't seen any of that this time around.

    Yep. We've had Elton and Michael. Time to bring on Ian:

    "You shall not pass (it on, if you have your booster)" :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    Given cases fell quite significantly yesterday it suggests the boosters and expanded vaccinations to under 18s are starting to work.

    I suggest that and requiring NHS staff to be vaccinated will have more impact than mask wearing mandates
  • The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    So Tesla heads past $1T with a ~ $4B order from a $12B company o_O
  • The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    @OwenJones84
    ·
    44m
    It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.

    You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1452922838235688961
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Hello!

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."....
    Also 'can carry', and 'carry' are not the same thing.
    Thanks! Some other nice constructive responses this morning.
    It's also worth mentioning to anyone reticent about a second jab because of a reaction to the first that, aside from anaphylaxis, feeling really grotty for a day or two after the first jab (and I was definitely only firing on two cylinders for about 48 hours after) is not likely to be repeated after the second one. I was a bit worried, for sure, but the second jab of AZ produced in me only the mildest of headaches for a couple of hours and that was that. It's also worth pointing out that a strong reaction to the vaccine suggests that you might have had a really hard time with the actual disease, therefore it's critical to get as much protection as you can, otherwise if you do catch it with an incomplete vaccination status, you may yet suffer badly (especially as vaccine protection wanes).

    Basically, if you survived the first jab without any life threatening side effects, you're not likely to have anything like as bad a reaction the second time round.

    People in general need to give witness to their own experience, as I do above, to help put others minds at rest. That way a fearful mind that has distilled a relatively minor discomfort into a risk of cosmic proportions can perhaps be quieted.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Mr. Eagles, I'm sure the political class will be more robust than they were when the Batley teacher was being subjected to threats of death by a baying mob of zealots.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    Yoigov % of English people who would support bringing back...

    Masks on transport: 81%
    Masks in shops: 76%
    Social distancing in pubs/restaurants: 67%
    2m rule: 59%
    Rule of 6 indoors: 42%
    No large events: 42%
    No household mixing indoors: 30%
    Full lockdown: 20%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452920527945969665?s=20
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634
    I doubt it. Paterson is part of the HoC furniture, he's not going anywhere.

    This would have been a massive scandal, ten, twenty or thirty years ago. Times have changed. I mentioned earlier Hugh Dalton resigning for blowing the contents of the 1947 Budget before revealing it to Parliament. It seems these days MPs are the last to know.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806

    The pictures from the Commons of the largely mask less Tory MPs sends a very bad message.

    It sends a very good message - to get vaccinated and then get on with your life.

    Which would be absolutely fine if that was the official government guidance, rather than "continue to wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed spaces where you come into contact with people you don’t normally meet". The HoC seems to me to meet those criteria (you can argue over the exact definitions I guess...).

    I'm fine with updating the guidance (e.g. make it more explicit that it's really enclosed spaces like buses and trains and not much else)or starting to wear masks.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393
    Carnyx said:

    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Hello!

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."

    "Lower risk of being infected" is the key point here. One needs to catch the thing in the first place befgore one can pass it on.

    And therefore the unvaccinated are more likely to catch it and pass it on.

    But more crucially they are far more likely to get it bad and clutter up the hospitals which everyone else needs. And knacker the doctors and nurses unnecessarily (in the case of the wilful antivaxxers).

    HMG are evidently relying solely on the vaccine rather than behaviour, mask wearing, etc.
    Welcome to BigAl. Reading the source paper, I think (but I'm not sure) that Carnyx is right:

    (1) As BigAl says, if you've been infected then your risk of passing it on may well be the same regardless of whether you have been been double-vaccinated

    but

    (2) As Carnyx says, the probability of being infected (even asymptomatically) is far lower if you've been double-vaccinated.

    I wouldn't want to demonise anyone, but it appears that people who aren't double-vaccinated are putting people they meet at higher risk. So it's reasonable to say, just factually, that they wouldn't be suitable for work and leisure activities involving intensive close-quarters contact, especially health staff. If they've had bad side-effects after the first vaccination, I understand their reluctance, but limitations on employment and mingling if they don't can reasonably be factors for them to weigh up.

    If vaccination reaches a level of spread and effectiveness that we don't need to worry much about catching the virus (cf. the common cold), then none of this applies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Mr. HYUFD, none of those are banned. Any individual or business who wants to act that way can.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    edited October 26
    HYUFD said:

    Yoigov % of English people who would support bringing back...

    Masks on transport: 81%
    Masks in shops: 76%
    Social distancing in pubs/restaurants: 67%
    2m rule: 59%
    Rule of 6 indoors: 42%
    No large events: 42%
    No household mixing indoors: 30%
    Full lockdown: 20%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452920527945969665?s=20

    If you start of with a survey about covid , you are going to naturally make people think of it and especially if you give a long list of measures , people think - oh go on then lets have a couple implemented then (so they don't sound like a stubborn git)
    The majority of people are not wearing masks in indoor spaces or even on transport (see Mike's header) because they don't like them .

    Surveys like this don't give the true view - its a case of actions not words
  • Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 66

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited October 26
    How fair are the following types of taxation?

    BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
    Council tax: 27% / 45%
    Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
    Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
    Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
    Income tax: 40% / 29%
    National Insurance: 40% / 27%
    Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
    Tobacco: 71% / 12%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806

    The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    The first lady quoted has apparently been branded a "genital fetishist". Aren't we all* genital fetishists? Does it even count as a fetish if it's very widespread?

    *well, most of us, I guess?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,602
    Unpopular said:

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
    It's not that the voters want to wear masks, it's that they love making other people do things. They hate freedom, this is shown in poll after poll and election after election.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927
    edited October 26
    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Excellent first post. Reflects my own position on this subject.

    This actually reveals that the educated elite are just as vulnerable as everyone else to waves of hysteria and panic.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393

    I doubt it. Paterson is part of the HoC furniture, he's not going anywhere.

    This would have been a massive scandal, ten, twenty or thirty years ago. Times have changed. I mentioned earlier Hugh Dalton resigning for blowing the contents of the 1947 Budget before revealing it to Parliament. It seems these days MPs are the last to know.
    Aren't you missing the point of the article, though? Under the rules, if the Commons approves the recommended sanction (which they virtually always do), then Tory-critical voters (>35% at the 2019 election) can force a by-election if 10% of the electorate sign a petition for it. Whether fellow-MPs feel he's part of the furniture doesn't affect it.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    edited October 26
    Unpopular said:

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
    If there are people who exist who hate to wear them , actually don't wear them (presumably because they dont think they do any good or at enough to overcome their hatred of them ) but say they want the government to force them to wear them then they are frankly a bit pathetic.

    The obvious conclusion to seeing most people not wear them is that they dont want the government to tell them they have to .

    this is even beyond the argument that masks do nothing to manage covid -19 - just look at Wales or Scotland
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,451

    The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    @OwenJones84
    ·
    44m
    It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.

    You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1452922838235688961
    So lesbians who say they are being coerced into sex are dismissed as anti trans activists.

    The cotton ceiling is nothing new and what is in the article is nothing new. I’m surprised the BBC bravely posted it given the expected replies.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    HYUFD said:

    How fair are the following types of taxation?

    BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
    Council tax: 27% / 45%
    Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
    Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
    Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
    Income tax: 40% / 29%
    National Insurance: 40% / 27%
    Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
    Tobacco: 71% / 12%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20

    I wonder if the inheritance tax answer is because people think it is too lenient or too tough? A better question would be to ask if they felt each of the taxes was too high or low
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393

    Unpopular said:

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
    If there are people who exist who hate to wear them , actually don't wear them (presumably because they dont think they do any good or at enough to overcome their hatred of them ) but say they want the government to force them to wear them then they are frankly a bit pathetic.

    The obvious conclusion to seeing most people not wear them is that they dont want the government to tell them they have to .

    this is even beyond the argument that masks do nothing to manage covid -19 - just look at Wales or Scotland
    No, Unpopular is right, in the same way as few people voluntarily send money to the Treasury, lots of people are willing to do if it's part of general taxation. It's quite rational and not pathetic at all to be willing to take part in a general policy to wear masks in crowded conditions, while feeling reluctant to bother if nobody else is doing so or expected to.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927

    The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    The guardian reported a couple of days ago that only 8% of schools have Covid air monitors; turned out that this was based on a twitter poll.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    edited October 26
    HYUFD said:

    Yoigov % of English people who would support bringing back...

    Masks on transport: 81%
    Masks in shops: 76%
    Social distancing in pubs/restaurants: 67%
    2m rule: 59%
    Rule of 6 indoors: 42%
    No large events: 42%
    No household mixing indoors: 30%
    Full lockdown: 20%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452920527945969665?s=20

    The public have been scared by covid and have reacted by supporting much more restrictive measures as a self defence mechanism

    Rishi was absolutely correct to introduce furlough but by doing so he made a large part of our society avoid the serious personal economic damage, and in some ways contributed to this attitude

    I expect these attitudes to continue and I give Boris and HMG credit in standing up against draconian measures like vaccine passports as we have here in Wales and in Scotland, preferring to promote vaccination and boosters.

    This is the way out of this crisis, but I do support vaccination for everyone in health care as they have a duty of care to their patients

    If as yesterdays report forecast that infection rates are expected to fall to about 5,000 by Christmas, and there are early signs of a slowing down in infection rates, then Boris and HMG will have made the correct call at just the time labour are demanding tighter restrictions

    On labour, they support vaccine passports but not compulsory vaccination for health care workers and it is exactly that inconsistency that raises question about their suitability for government

    Yesterday's poll saw Starmer fall further behind Boris and labour supporters must be in despair at at time when an opposition should be streets ahead

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom? (25 Oct):

    RedfieldWilton

    At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom? (25 Oct):

    Boris Johnson: 43% (–)
    Keir Starmer: 30% (-2)

    Changes +/- 18 Oct
  • Nigelb said:
    Don't worry Frosty, the EU have passed an Internal Market Bill.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628

    Unpopular said:

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
    If there are people who exist who hate to wear them , actually don't wear them (presumably because they dont think they do any good or at enough to overcome their hatred of them ) but say they want the government to force them to wear them then they are frankly a bit pathetic.

    The obvious conclusion to seeing most people not wear them is that they dont want the government to tell them they have to .

    this is even beyond the argument that masks do nothing to manage covid -19 - just look at Wales or Scotland
    No, Unpopular is right, in the same way as few people voluntarily send money to the Treasury, lots of people are willing to do if it's part of general taxation. It's quite rational and not pathetic at all to be willing to take part in a general policy to wear masks in crowded conditions, while feeling reluctant to bother if nobody else is doing so or expected to.
    so a sort of selfish but not selfish person - a mindset of "I am not wearing a mask because significant other people are not even though I believe it helps cut down covid" but also " really worried about passing on covid to others the point of wanting the government to tell me what to wear"-- Frankly dont really see it

    Its amazing as well that Labour MPs think Brighton is a place you cannot pass on covid but Westminster and the rest of England is .
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,714

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    My electricity provider claims to supply me with 100% renewable energy. I suppose I could use it to charge a car.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393
    HYUFD said:

    How fair are the following types of taxation?

    BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
    Council tax: 27% / 45%
    Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
    Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
    Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
    Income tax: 40% / 29%
    National Insurance: 40% / 27%
    Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
    Tobacco: 71% / 12%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20

    The Times article gives interesting perspective over time:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c547c38-35af-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=51c743d0d209fd673db2cc19b5bc5a32

    Summary - people are much more willing to pay climate-friendly taxes than they used to be (especially air passenger duty, for which views have totally reversed), and are less hostile to IHT and stamp duty than in the past, perhaps reflecting the increasing proportion of people who can't get onto the property ladder, but they are more hostile to National Insurance and the licence fee.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806

    HYUFD said:

    Yoigov % of English people who would support bringing back...

    Masks on transport: 81%
    Masks in shops: 76%
    Social distancing in pubs/restaurants: 67%
    2m rule: 59%
    Rule of 6 indoors: 42%
    No large events: 42%
    No household mixing indoors: 30%
    Full lockdown: 20%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452920527945969665?s=20

    If you start of with a survey about covid , you are going to naturally make people think of it and especially if you give a long list of measures , people think - oh go on then lets have a couple implemented then (so they don't sound like a stubborn git)
    The majority of people are not wearing masks in indoor spaces or even on transport (see Mike's header) because they don't like them .

    Surveys like this don't give the true view - its a case of actions not words
    There's something in that. We did a study on willingness to pay to prevent climate change deaths and experimented with different ways of asking the question - two sets of multiple choice amounts, covering different ranges (both had responses that clustered to the middles of the ranges, even though the middles were differnet) and then a contingent valuation approach (ask each person only one randomly chosen amount, with yes or no answer and then model based on those responses to find the mean and median amounts people would pay.

    We also put other questions on climate change either before or after the question on willingness to pay, which also shifted results a bit, although to a lesser extent (asking more questions before the money question got people to pay more).

    So here, you might ask each person about only one of the measures and work from there. You would, of course, need a much larger sample. Context is, of course, also key.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,589
    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    4 or 5 protestors usually means 12-20 police, so you can see the problem.

    Unfortunately I have to deal with this stuff for my job, for hospitals.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,177
    Selebian said:

    dixiedean said:

    Celebs too. Haven't seen any of that this time around.

    Yep. We've had Elton and Michael. Time to bring on Ian:

    "You shall not pass (it on, if you have your booster)" :wink:
    'Fly, you fools (if you see some twat/Piers handing out antivax leaflets)'
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    Who will forcibly remove them?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
  • Thanks for the welcomes, sadly it seems I can only post once, so I signed up again and will make this my second and last post.

    @TOPPING @Morris_Dancer

    Yes I've been ignoring the whole COVID discussion for over a year and just done what I was told by the government, but have recently been getting increasingly concerned with the rise of vaccine passports (seemingly in a global and coordinated fashion), so thought I'd find somewhere to comment.

    Having laughed at the conspiracy theorists a year ago who claimed we'd have a vaccine passport system coming attached to a subscription medical service with endless boosters, I now have to admit that they look like they could have been right all along.

    Even though I've been vaccinated, I certainly won't be getting a vaccine passport as it is a complete violation of all our civil liberties, not just those who have not been vaccinated.

    Here is an account of how the passports have changed life in a few short weeks in Lithuania:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451714806721957891.html

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."

    Yes this a fair point, which I had overlooked (as are others which I can't all reply to in one post sadly). I guess the question is how much less likely with newer and future strains. If it is significant, then with the large number of people who have already taken the vaccine then it should already reduce transmission enough to end the pandemic and vaccine passports are unnecessary. If it isn't, then again vaccine passports make no logical sense.

    With natural immunity is growing all the time as more people have been infected combined with the majority being vaccinated, if what we're told is true, then the pandemic should be ending soon anyway. No passports required.

    I will go back into lurking mode now.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    This was earlier this month at a school near me.

    https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/anti-vaccine-protest-school-gateshead-21753875

    These guys want prosecuting. I can think of a number of offences.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,714
    TOPPING said:

    BigAl said:

    Hello I'm new please be gentle etc.

    I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.

    I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

    The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.

    The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.

    I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?

    Morning and cracking first post.

    Agree entirely.

    Vaccine passports violate peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies which, for a board which is so full of people who hold sovereignty in such special regard, begs the question why they are so well supported on PB.
    For me it's simply a recognition that no rights can be absolute in the real world and that includes sovereignty over one's body. I strongly believe in free speech but not to the point where it incites violence for example.
  • dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634

    I doubt it. Paterson is part of the HoC furniture, he's not going anywhere.

    This would have been a massive scandal, ten, twenty or thirty years ago. Times have changed. I mentioned earlier Hugh Dalton resigning for blowing the contents of the 1947 Budget before revealing it to Parliament. It seems these days MPs are the last to know.
    Aren't you missing the point of the article, though? Under the rules, if the Commons approves the recommended sanction (which they virtually always do), then Tory-critical voters (>35% at the 2019 election) can force a by-election if 10% of the electorate sign a petition for it. Whether fellow-MPs feel he's part of the furniture doesn't affect it.
    I still doubt Paterson reaches the 10% recall petition threshold. I find him to be an odious politician, but he is not my MP so I don't have a say.

    Can't the Tory party install him as the recall by election candidate anyway?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
    It's compared to buses and trains, which will presumably be running whether I've bought myself an EV or not.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 8,811
    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    It should be illegal to protest within say 100m of a school gates.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884

    Thanks for the welcomes, sadly it seems I can only post once, so I signed up again and will make this my second and last post.

    @TOPPING @Morris_Dancer

    Yes I've been ignoring the whole COVID discussion for over a year and just done what I was told by the government, but have recently been getting increasingly concerned with the rise of vaccine passports (seemingly in a global and coordinated fashion), so thought I'd find somewhere to comment.

    Having laughed at the conspiracy theorists a year ago who claimed we'd have a vaccine passport system coming attached to a subscription medical service with endless boosters, I now have to admit that they look like they could have been right all along.

    Even though I've been vaccinated, I certainly won't be getting a vaccine passport as it is a complete violation of all our civil liberties, not just those who have not been vaccinated.

    Here is an account of how the passports have changed life in a few short weeks in Lithuania:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451714806721957891.html

    "But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."

    Yes this a fair point, which I had overlooked (as are others which I can't all reply to in one post sadly). I guess the question is how much less likely with newer and future strains. If it is significant, then with the large number of people who have already taken the vaccine then it should already reduce transmission enough to end the pandemic and vaccine passports are unnecessary. If it isn't, then again vaccine passports make no logical sense.

    With natural immunity is growing all the time as more people have been infected combined with the majority being vaccinated, if what we're told is true, then the pandemic should be ending soon anyway. No passports required.

    I will go back into lurking mode now.

    2x login/sign up attempts surely you should stay now the hard graft has been done.

    Always welcome voices with whatever views- in particular when I agree with them so I do have a vested interest in you staying... :smile:
  • FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    My electricity provider claims to supply me with 100% renewable energy. I suppose I could use it to charge a car.
    Does your electricity bill provider give you new green plug sockets in your house that only give you the good electricity?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403

    dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    At least you didn't concede 5 at home to Watford. There is that.
  • dixiedean said:

    This was earlier this month at a school near me.

    https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/anti-vaccine-protest-school-gateshead-21753875

    These guys want prosecuting. I can think of a number of offences.

    Bring back the death penalty.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    edited October 26

    HYUFD said:

    How fair are the following types of taxation?

    BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
    Council tax: 27% / 45%
    Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
    Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
    Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
    Income tax: 40% / 29%
    National Insurance: 40% / 27%
    Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
    Tobacco: 71% / 12%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20

    The Times article gives interesting perspective over time:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c547c38-35af-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=51c743d0d209fd673db2cc19b5bc5a32

    Summary - people are much more willing to pay climate-friendly taxes than they used to be (especially air passenger duty, for which views have totally reversed), and are less hostile to IHT and stamp duty than in the past, perhaps reflecting the increasing proportion of people who can't get onto the property ladder, but they are more hostile to National Insurance and the licence fee.
    The BBC should be looking at itself with that low percentage .The cost is low compared to Sky etc but not so compared now to streaming services like Netflix and Amazon. I used to be a big fan of the BBC but my support is waning given the lowering quality of its output not least its website (which comes across like a cross between Hello magazine (with obsession about celebrity and voxpops and individual (not very ) sob stories ), a Listen with Mother episode (in its dumbing down) and a Student Union publication (in its wokeness )

    Also two really really annoying things about the BBC

    Thought for the Day - God knows why Radio 4 persist with this tripe which is always a seniro religious figure getting on the latest woke bandwagon and not only contorting it so that it excuses religion but also making it sound like their religion supported the wokeness all its existence. A sickly 5 minutes of OTT patronising hypocritical drivel.

    "fact checking " usually done with anyone on the right of politics who has said something that is slightly off message . Smacks of compete arrogance and bias - as if the BBC is the absolute authority on truth and integrity?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437
    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    Who will forcibly remove them?
    I did think of that issue when I posted what I said. Now I know it isn't the job of teachers and other staff, but if low in numbers and not aggressive or drunk I would have thought they could be bundled out and the doors locked. I appreciate if it escalates that might not be possible. They shouldn't be allowed to serve these so called papers.
  • dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    Oh, football began in 1992?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    My electricity provider claims to supply me with 100% renewable energy. I suppose I could use it to charge a car.
    Does your electricity bill provider give you new green plug sockets in your house that only give you the good electricity?
    You can specify renewab le only with Scottish Power. Butr presumably the other customers get the bad karma.
  • dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    Oh, football began in 1992?
    Premier league did
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 8,811
    kjh said:

    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    Who will forcibly remove them?
    I did think of that issue when I posted what I said. Now I know it isn't the job of teachers and other staff, but if low in numbers and not aggressive or drunk I would have thought they could be bundled out and the doors locked. I appreciate if it escalates that might not be possible. They shouldn't be allowed to serve these so called papers.
    The police can't even quickly get a bunch of old civil servant duffers off a road. Can't expect school staff to do anything.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,535
    Curious that the figures in the poll for “strongly support” are higher in both “Leave” and “Remain” than the overall average: does that mean that not many are still identifying themselves in that way?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    HYUFD said:

    How fair are the following types of taxation?

    BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
    Council tax: 27% / 45%
    Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
    Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
    Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
    Income tax: 40% / 29%
    National Insurance: 40% / 27%
    Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
    Tobacco: 71% / 12%
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20

    The Times article gives interesting perspective over time:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c547c38-35af-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=51c743d0d209fd673db2cc19b5bc5a32

    Summary - people are much more willing to pay climate-friendly taxes than they used to be (especially air passenger duty, for which views have totally reversed), and are less hostile to IHT and stamp duty than in the past, perhaps reflecting the increasing proportion of people who can't get onto the property ladder, but they are more hostile to National Insurance and the licence fee.
    The NI thing is particulasrly interesting, after the recent rise and people realising it's actually a special income tax for the working.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,848
    Taz said:

    The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    @OwenJones84
    ·
    44m
    It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.

    You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1452922838235688961
    So lesbians who say they are being coerced into sex are dismissed as anti trans activists.

    The cotton ceiling is nothing new and what is in the article is nothing new. I’m surprised the BBC bravely posted it given the expected replies.
    Two separate issues here:-

    1. Should women - whether straight or lesbian - be coerced into sex and/or accused of being phobic because they do not fancy someone? No. Of course not. You do not need a poll to say this. It is a straightforward matter of principle. Does this happen? There is some evidence - largely anecdotal - that it does.
    2. Is a poll based on 80 people very reliable? Not really. There has been some well-deserved criticism of a claim that 1 in 4 trans children are suicidal. This was based on a poll of 27 people and did not even prove what some claimed. If it is fair to criticise trans activists for using dodgy statistics based on dodgy polls then one should not in turn rely on polls based on a tiny sample.

    Sauce for the goose etc ....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
    It's compared to buses and trains, which will presumably be running whether I've bought myself an EV or not.
    Yes but if you have a petrol car, but use public transport 25% of the time, then that's going to be more emissions than having an electric car.

    Read the question properly, the question was not exclusively using public transport.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    4 or 5 protestors usually means 12-20 police, so you can see the problem.

    Unfortunately I have to deal with this stuff for my job, for hospitals.
    I got the impression it was rather different from the sort of stuff you get in hospitals with drunks, addicts and mental health issues which often turn very nasty. You also can't lock the doors to a hospital.

    I appreciate if it gets out of hand that it might not be possible.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    kjh said:

    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    Who will forcibly remove them?
    I did think of that issue when I posted what I said. Now I know it isn't the job of teachers and other staff, but if low in numbers and not aggressive or drunk I would have thought they could be bundled out and the doors locked. I appreciate if it escalates that might not be possible. They shouldn't be allowed to serve these so called papers.
    Even touching one of the protesters would put the school staff and school managemernt at the risk of prosecution for assault. Big no-no. Get the polis in.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    At least you didn't concede 5 at home to Watford. There is that.
    I remember in the eighties coming home from matches with my daughter (both season ticket holders at the time) devastated at the way the team was playing then along came Alex and the success he bought and over many years endured

    I can say with some certainty that none of the present mangers of Liverpool, City or Chelsea will be in their jobs as long as Alex
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402

    dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    Oh, football began in 1992?
    Premier league did
    And ?
  • I doubt it. Paterson is part of the HoC furniture, he's not going anywhere.

    This would have been a massive scandal, ten, twenty or thirty years ago. Times have changed. I mentioned earlier Hugh Dalton resigning for blowing the contents of the 1947 Budget before revealing it to Parliament. It seems these days MPs are the last to know.
    Aren't you missing the point of the article, though? Under the rules, if the Commons approves the recommended sanction (which they virtually always do), then Tory-critical voters (>35% at the 2019 election) can force a by-election if 10% of the electorate sign a petition for it. Whether fellow-MPs feel he's part of the furniture doesn't affect it.
    I still doubt Paterson reaches the 10% recall petition threshold. I find him to be an odious politician, but he is not my MP so I don't have a say.

    Can't the Tory party install him as the recall by election candidate anyway?
    He did lose his wife to suicide over the issue sadly
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    edited October 26
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    My electricity provider claims to supply me with 100% renewable energy. I suppose I could use it to charge a car.
    Does your electricity bill provider give you new green plug sockets in your house that only give you the good electricity?
    You can specify renewab le only with Scottish Power. Butr presumably the other customers get the bad karma.
    Had this debate with my mum recently (who, many moons ago, worked in billing for the Eastern Electricity Board). The 'green only' electricity companies commit to buying only electricity from renewable sources, so signing up guarantees that the amount of electricity you use is also bought from a green source. Two interesting consquences:
    1. Doesn't necessarily increase green generation in the UK - if the needs of people on these tariffs can be met enitrely through existing green generation then - indeed - other peole just get notionally more of the 'dirty' stuff :wink:
    2. If everyone signed up for such a tariff then we'd be royally screwed at present. We'd reach that point at present (perhaps? depends how many on such tariffs) if green customers consumption had to be matched with green generation on e.g. an hourly or daily basis

    My mum likes to recount stories of people relatively near to the then new nuclear power station thinking they should get cheaper electricity and how silly that is with a national grid. But even then, when you think about generation losses over distance, even on the very high V lines, it is cheaper to serve electricity to people living closer to a generation source (better matching would also reduce the needed capacity of long distance lines - lots of domestic solar plus battery for example, could reduce grid requirements).
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    It is a very sad story to be fair involving his wife's suicide
    Makes no difference to the fact that he should clearly be thrown out.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    kjh said:

    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    The government needs to go postal on these morons.

    Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.

    “It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”

    The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.

    “It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”

    That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.

    The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”

    “It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.

    “Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”

    The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters

    Presumably they have no right to enter the school. Once it becomes apparent what they intend they shouldn't be pandered to by allowing them to serve their nonsense papers. They should be forcibly removed from the school and then surrounded when the pupils leave the school if it is 5 or 6 protestors.
    Who will forcibly remove them?
    I did think of that issue when I posted what I said. Now I know it isn't the job of teachers and other staff, but if low in numbers and not aggressive or drunk I would have thought they could be bundled out and the doors locked. I appreciate if it escalates that might not be possible. They shouldn't be allowed to serve these so called papers.
    The police can't even quickly get a bunch of old civil servant duffers off a road. Can't expect school staff to do anything.
    Maybe I was being over optimistic. The teachers when I went to school in the 60s scared the willies out of me.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
    It's compared to buses and trains, which will presumably be running whether I've bought myself an EV or not.
    Yes but if you have a petrol car, but use public transport 25% of the time, then that's going to be more emissions than having an electric car.

    Read the question properly, the question was not exclusively using public transport.
    It's a fricking stupid question.

    "using public transport as much as possible" could mean anything from never using it to always using it.
  • Farooq said:

    It is a very sad story to be fair involving his wife's suicide
    Makes no difference to the fact that he should clearly be thrown out.
    Compassion your strong point ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,177
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    The BBC have published an article based on a poll with sample of 80!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

    Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.

    @OwenJones84
    ·
    44m
    It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.

    You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1452922838235688961
    So lesbians who say they are being coerced into sex are dismissed as anti trans activists.

    The cotton ceiling is nothing new and what is in the article is nothing new. I’m surprised the BBC bravely posted it given the expected replies.
    Two separate issues here:-

    1. Should women - whether straight or lesbian - be coerced into sex and/or accused of being phobic because they do not fancy someone? No. Of course not. You do not need a poll to say this. It is a straightforward matter of principle. Does this happen? There is some evidence - largely anecdotal - that it does.
    2. Is a poll based on 80 people very reliable? Not really. There has been some well-deserved criticism of a claim that 1 in 4 trans children are suicidal. This was based on a poll of 27 people and did not even prove what some claimed. If it is fair to criticise trans activists for using dodgy statistics based on dodgy polls then one should not in turn rely on polls based on a tiny sample.

    Sauce for the goose etc ....
    Re.2, a 'social media' poll is utterly unreliable, one to which only 80 people responded..
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    At least you didn't concede 5 at home to Watford. There is that.
    I remember in the eighties coming home from matches with my daughter (both season ticket holders at the time) devastated at the way the team was playing then along came Alex and the success he bought and over many years endured

    I can say with some certainty that none of the present mangers of Liverpool, City or Chelsea will be in their jobs as long as Alex
    Though if longevity at the same club was the sole metric for success then you could say the same about the present managers versus Arsene Wenger. But I'd rate Klopp and Pep above Wenger.

    I've always felt that Arsenal being managed by Arsene Wenger was a bit of nominative determinism though.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ole's at the wheel, OLE'S AT THE WHEEL NANANANANANA.

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/

    Apparently Salah handed in a transfer request this morning.
    He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
    When United were at their zenith under Sir Alex I went into a meeting at the club with Bobby Charlton and we were chatting about the fantastic successes we were having and Bobby said never forget good times come and go and enjoy them while you can

    Wise words from the great man

    And on a relevant point

    Premier league titles

    Manchester United 13

    Liverpool 1
    At least you didn't concede 5 at home to Watford. There is that.
    I remember in the eighties coming home from matches with my daughter (both season ticket holders at the time) devastated at the way the team was playing then along came Alex and the success he bought and over many years endured

    I can say with some certainty that none of the present mangers of Liverpool, City or Chelsea will be in their jobs as long as Alex
    Though if longevity at the same club was the sole metric for success then you could say the same about the present managers versus Arsene Wenger. But I'd rate Klopp and Pep above Wenger.

    I've always felt that Arsenal being managed by Arsene Wenger was a bit of nominative determinism though.
    I accept that point
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,138

    Unpopular said:

    Tory Mp not wearing masks (rather like Labour ones at Brighton incidentally) are sending the right message not the wrong one that the country needs ot get over its obsession with covid 19 especially given the drop in cases coming through .

    There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really

    I vaguely (so apologies for innacuracy) remember from my GCSE history, when I did WWI there was pressure on the Government to introduce conscription, with the attitude of men being 'Well, I'll go if I have to but I won't volunteer'. Even if people were happy (possibly the wrong word, but also possibly not!) to go, leaving a livelihood and a family would be a big step and people might have felt they needed this nudge. I wonder if mask wearing is similar. I know very few that like to wear them and human nature being human nature means that, without that pressure, people will wear them less often even if they support wearing them in principle. The public might very well hate masks (I know I do), but I see no contradiction between that hatred and support for continuing to wear them, nor do I see a contradiction between the reported levels of mask usage and public support for continuing to wear them.
    If there are people who exist who hate to wear them , actually don't wear them (presumably because they dont think they do any good or at enough to overcome their hatred of them ) but say they want the government to force them to wear them then they are frankly a bit pathetic.

    The obvious conclusion to seeing most people not wear them is that they dont want the government to tell them they have to .

    this is even beyond the argument that masks do nothing to manage covid -19 - just look at Wales or Scotland
    No, Unpopular is right, in the same way as few people voluntarily send money to the Treasury, lots of people are willing to do if it's part of general taxation. It's quite rational and not pathetic at all to be willing to take part in a general policy to wear masks in crowded conditions, while feeling reluctant to bother if nobody else is doing so or expected to.
    so a sort of selfish but not selfish person - a mindset of "I am not wearing a mask because significant other people are not even though I believe it helps cut down covid" but also " really worried about passing on covid to others the point of wanting the government to tell me what to wear"-- Frankly dont really see it

    Its amazing as well that Labour MPs think Brighton is a place you cannot pass on covid but Westminster and the rest of England is .
    Paradoxically Westminster is one of the safest places in the country, according to the BBC plague map. Little Snottington parish council is a far more dangerous forum (and more Tories, in all probability).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,191

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
    It's compared to buses and trains, which will presumably be running whether I've bought myself an EV or not.
    Yes but if you have a petrol car, but use public transport 25% of the time, then that's going to be more emissions than having an electric car.

    Read the question properly, the question was not exclusively using public transport.
    It's a fricking stupid question.

    "using public transport as much as possible" could mean anything from never using it to always using it.
    Indeed but for the overwhelming majority of people in the country "as much as possible" is still going to be a minority of your journeys.

    The London-based obsessives who think that public transport is the bees knees are a tiny majority in this country.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
    Selebian said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    My electricity provider claims to supply me with 100% renewable energy. I suppose I could use it to charge a car.
    Does your electricity bill provider give you new green plug sockets in your house that only give you the good electricity?
    You can specify renewab le only with Scottish Power. Butr presumably the other customers get the bad karma.
    Had this debate with my mum recently (who, many moons ago, worked in billing for the Eastern Electricity Board). The 'green only' electricity companies commit to buying only electricity from renewable sources, so signing up guarantees that the amount of electricity you use is also bought from a green source. Two interesting consquences:
    1. Doesn't necessarily increase green generation in the UK - if the needs of people on these tariffs can be met enitrely through existing green generation then - indeed - other peole just get notionally more of the 'dirty' stuff :wink:
    2. If everyone signed up for such a tariff then we'd be royally screwed at present. We'd reach that point at present (perhaps? depends how many on such tariffs) if green customers consumption had to be matched with green generation on e.g. an hourly or daily basis...
    But such price signals add up, and make a difference.
    One of the UK's larger generators (SSE) has already started to move its business completely to renewables.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    edited October 26

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT

    Selebian said:

    From the BBC Climate Change Quiz

    3. Let's look at when you leave your home. What's the best transport choice for the climate: buying an electric car or using public transport as much as possible?


    Hmm, I'd like to see a full life cycle analysis on that!

    Maybe 'using the electric care you already have', but it would take some journeys before you could justify the manufacturing emissions of the EV. Also, if the bus is running anyway then your marginal contribution to its emissions are minimal (your extra weight).

    I think I posted here before about the analysis (cited in a PhD thesis I examined) that an efficienct ICE car could be greener than walking, which also didn't stand up to much scrutiny.

    Edit: Also, for extra pedantry, what about if 'public transport' is an electric train with only a walk at either end? Quite common in the SE at least - that's my brother's commute, when he goes into the London office.
    Also, the "battery-powered car charged with renewable energy" - how on earth do you ensure that your car is only charged with renewable energy? Obviously you can sometimes do it if you happen have your own solar panels and wind turbine to charge from, but how else?
    The point is that a BEV uses more renewable energy as the grid decarbonises. An ICE car, in the general case excepting Porsche's e-fuel, will never use renewable energy.
    It's compared to buses and trains, which will presumably be running whether I've bought myself an EV or not.
    Yes but if you have a petrol car, but use public transport 25% of the time, then that's going to be more emissions than having an electric car.

    Read the question properly, the question was not exclusively using public transport.
    It's a fricking stupid question.

    "using public transport as much as possible" could mean anything from never using it to always using it.
    Indeed but for the overwhelming majority of people in the country "as much as possible" is still going to be a minority of your journeys.

    The London-based obsessives who think that public transport is the bees knees are a tiny majority in this country.
    They really are

    I cannot recall when I have ever used public transport in my area and no doubt many will find that astonishing but it is par for most of us
This discussion has been closed.