YouGov finds overwhelming support for NHS staff to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com
YouGov finds overwhelming support for NHS staff to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com
At some stage this has to be implemented. There is overwhelming public backing as the polling shows and it would give a strong signal of the Government’s intent.
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I meant to post on the previous thread, but I messed up signing up a few times.
I don't really follow the logic of the (now previous) header regarding the blackout in the war I'm afraid. Fully vaccinated seem to have the same viral load as unvaccinated in all but the early strains which have mostly died out:
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074
The vaccine masks symptoms, so it seems likely that you're more likely to not know you have it and pass it on if you are vaccinated. Either way the unvaccinated aren't a hotbed of covid more than anyone else, which would be the only way the blackout metaphor makes sense.
The demonisation of the unvaccinated seems to be paving the way for vaccine passports and who knows what else they will attach to them in future.
I myself have been double vaccinated, but I know some people who are not after having bad side effects from the first vaccine so not getting the second one. Are we happy to prevent them participating in society on a faulty premise?
I have no doubt that it should be implemented.
Furthermore, and as I mentioned last night, where does the duty of care come into this and the legal liability where an unvaccinated health care person is identified as having passed covid to a patient who subsequently dies
I know there are plenty of lawyers on this forum and I would be interested in their view on this point
Agree entirely.
Vaccine passports violate peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies which, for a board which is so full of people who hold sovereignty in such special regard, begs the question why they are so well supported on PB.
There is no majority support for facemasks being made compulsory . you might get a leading survey indicating so but its naturally going to be a bit biased if only because it reminds people of covid to start with. Your stat of only 25% thameslink wearers show the public hate them really
I would just say that vaccine passports are already mandated in Scotland and Wales
"But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."
"Lower risk of being infected" is the key point here. One needs to catch the thing in the first place befgore one can pass it on.
And therefore the unvaccinated are more likely to catch it and pass it on.
But more crucially they are far more likely to get it bad and clutter up the hospitals which everyone else needs. And knacker the doctors and nurses unnecessarily (in the case of the wilful antivaxxers).
HMG are evidently relying solely on the vaccine rather than behaviour, mask wearing, etc.
It sends a very good message - to get vaccinated and then get on with your life.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/26/owen-paterson-faces-suspension-breaking-lobbying-rules
https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3648/election/397
As far as the above is concerned, first of all, vaccinated individuals are considerably less likely than unvaccinated to become infected in the first place.
As for 'masking symptoms', I'm not sure about the relative incidence of asymptomatic cases between unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals (anyone ?), but asymptomatic cases are certainly common (about 1 in 3, I think) among the unvaccinated as well.
And recent research strongly suggests that persistence of disease in asymptomatic vaccinated individuals is of far shorter duration than in symptomatic cases.
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-3486
...All 33 asymptomatic case patients tested negative the day after the initial positive result, and all negative results were confirmed on a third NPS 2 days afterward. In contrast, symptomatic cases cleared after a mean of 11 days. The mean IgG level was twice as high in the asymptomatic than the symptomatic group...
I seem to remember a study that showed while peak viral shedding was similar in infected vaccinated and unvaccinated, it dropped off much faster in the vaccinated (makes sense, body deals with infection faster) and so the total shedding over period of infection would be much lower in vaccinated.
On the substantive point though, I tend to agree. The case numbers are likely (I don't know this, obviously) mostly due to infections in the very young whom we've only recently recommended the vaccine to. I'm not sure the older refuseniks are much to blame for the numbers. There is an argument around higher resource use by the unvaccinated - if we have a problem with health service collapse that needs restrictions, then it will be largely due to the unvaccinated. But, as others have suggested, I'd go for the universal bribe to get vaccinated over the stick, if we need it. I'm also fairly relaxed about people who have had at least one vaccination. They're less likely to be crashing the NHS, which is my only concern really going forwards. If people choose to limit their vaccinations and take their chances, that's their own choice.
Edit: Heh, so you've had umpteen people making the same points about infectiousness duration etc. Hopefully a gentle pile on though
So we'd expect that vaccinated people would be less of a transmission risk than unvaccinated people, and that's also what the contract tracing data shows.
Must say I agree with you in opposing the draconian policy of social/occupational ostracism for those who take a free choice not to be vaccinated. They're risking their life more than anyone else's.
I do support vaccines, but compulsion by the state backed up by a tyrannical intrusive and controlling policy of electronic surveillance is not something I can back.
Headteachers have described the “sinister” intimidation tactics being used by protesters against the vaccination against Covid of teenagers in schools.
“It started with a few emails from a group calling itself Lawyers for Freedom,” the Guardian was told by the headteacher of one of a number of Liverpool schools that have come under pressure from anti-vaccine activists. “An email is relatively easy to ignore.”
The protests soon escalated, however, with “aggressive” leafleting of pupils by five or six protesters as they left school. The head dialled 999, but the police did not come.
“It felt disproportionate,” said the head. “We know there was at least one student who came back into school and was quite upset by what was going on.”
That was followed by a visit from a small group of protesters who gained access to the school, demanded to meet the head, then served quasi-legal documents warning that they would be held legally responsible if any child suffered death or harm from these “experimental vaccines”.
The same has happened at a number of Liverpool secondary schools. The encounters were typically filmed on a mobile phone then posted on the social media app Telegram by a group calling itself Liverpool’s People’s Resistance UK, naming schools and in some cases teachers, declaring, “Notice served.”
“It was pretty aggressive,” the head said. “They came up to reception asking to speak to the headteacher about a legal matter. They insist on reading from a script and they film the whole process on a mobile.
“Once they’ve handed the papers over, they tend to disappear. They’ve got the footage they want. It almost feels like it’s a trophy. There are Trumpian undertones to what these groups are doing. If they started describing themselves as patriots, I wouldn’t be surprised.”
The numbers of protesters involved is hard to pin down. An investigation by the Liverpool Post found that parents appeared to be contacting a group administrator called George to arrange for a visit and for papers to be served on their school. Having visited the school, they then boast about frightening teachers and at one point say about a headteacher: “She can’t run, she can’t hide.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/26/liverpool-headteachers-describe-sinister-tactics-of-anti-vaxx-protesters
"You shall not pass (it on, if you have your booster)"
I suggest that and requiring NHS staff to be vaccinated will have more impact than mask wearing mandates
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385
Fortunately it is about Trans rights, so nobody will get wound up over it.
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It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.
You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1452922838235688961
Basically, if you survived the first jab without any life threatening side effects, you're not likely to have anything like as bad a reaction the second time round.
People in general need to give witness to their own experience, as I do above, to help put others minds at rest. That way a fearful mind that has distilled a relatively minor discomfort into a risk of cosmic proportions can perhaps be quieted.
Masks on transport: 81%
Masks in shops: 76%
Social distancing in pubs/restaurants: 67%
2m rule: 59%
Rule of 6 indoors: 42%
No large events: 42%
No household mixing indoors: 30%
Full lockdown: 20%
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452920527945969665?s=20
This would have been a massive scandal, ten, twenty or thirty years ago. Times have changed. I mentioned earlier Hugh Dalton resigning for blowing the contents of the 1947 Budget before revealing it to Parliament. It seems these days MPs are the last to know.
I'm fine with updating the guidance (e.g. make it more explicit that it's really enclosed spaces like buses and trains and not much else)or starting to wear masks.
(1) As BigAl says, if you've been infected then your risk of passing it on may well be the same regardless of whether you have been been double-vaccinated
but
(2) As Carnyx says, the probability of being infected (even asymptomatically) is far lower if you've been double-vaccinated.
I wouldn't want to demonise anyone, but it appears that people who aren't double-vaccinated are putting people they meet at higher risk. So it's reasonable to say, just factually, that they wouldn't be suitable for work and leisure activities involving intensive close-quarters contact, especially health staff. If they've had bad side-effects after the first vaccination, I understand their reluctance, but limitations on employment and mingling if they don't can reasonably be factors for them to weigh up.
If vaccination reaches a level of spread and effectiveness that we don't need to worry much about catching the virus (cf. the common cold), then none of this applies.
The majority of people are not wearing masks in indoor spaces or even on transport (see Mike's header) because they don't like them .
Surveys like this don't give the true view - its a case of actions not words
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is expected to remain in charge for Saturday’s trip to Tottenham after Manchester United’s hierarchy held crisis talks over the manager’s future and the team’s collapse amid serious concerns about how their season is unravelling.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/26/players-lose-faith-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-manchester-united/
BBC licence fee: 21% fair / 57% unfair
Council tax: 27% / 45%
Inheritance tax: 23% / 45%
Fuel duty: 32% / 38%
Stamp duty: 24% / 32%
Income tax: 40% / 29%
National Insurance: 40% / 27%
Air passenger duty 40% / 21%
Tobacco: 71% / 12%
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1452932157501022209?s=20
*well, most of us, I guess?
This actually reveals that the educated elite are just as vulnerable as everyone else to waves of hysteria and panic.
The obvious conclusion to seeing most people not wear them is that they dont want the government to tell them they have to .
this is even beyond the argument that masks do nothing to manage covid -19 - just look at Wales or Scotland
The cotton ceiling is nothing new and what is in the article is nothing new. I’m surprised the BBC bravely posted it given the expected replies.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/25/lord-frost-says-eu-close-to-breaching-brexit-deal-over-science-programme
Rishi was absolutely correct to introduce furlough but by doing so he made a large part of our society avoid the serious personal economic damage, and in some ways contributed to this attitude
I expect these attitudes to continue and I give Boris and HMG credit in standing up against draconian measures like vaccine passports as we have here in Wales and in Scotland, preferring to promote vaccination and boosters.
This is the way out of this crisis, but I do support vaccination for everyone in health care as they have a duty of care to their patients
If as yesterdays report forecast that infection rates are expected to fall to about 5,000 by Christmas, and there are early signs of a slowing down in infection rates, then Boris and HMG will have made the correct call at just the time labour are demanding tighter restrictions
On labour, they support vaccine passports but not compulsory vaccination for health care workers and it is exactly that inconsistency that raises question about their suitability for government
Yesterday's poll saw Starmer fall further behind Boris and labour supporters must be in despair at at time when an opposition should be streets ahead
At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom? (25 Oct):
RedfieldWilton
At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom? (25 Oct):
Boris Johnson: 43% (–)
Keir Starmer: 30% (-2)
Changes +/- 18 Oct
Its amazing as well that Labour MPs think Brighton is a place you cannot pass on covid but Westminster and the rest of England is .
He wants to play for Spurs on Saturday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c547c38-35af-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=51c743d0d209fd673db2cc19b5bc5a32
Summary - people are much more willing to pay climate-friendly taxes than they used to be (especially air passenger duty, for which views have totally reversed), and are less hostile to IHT and stamp duty than in the past, perhaps reflecting the increasing proportion of people who can't get onto the property ladder, but they are more hostile to National Insurance and the licence fee.
We also put other questions on climate change either before or after the question on willingness to pay, which also shifted results a bit, although to a lesser extent (asking more questions before the money question got people to pay more).
So here, you might ask each person about only one of the measures and work from there. You would, of course, need a much larger sample. Context is, of course, also key.
Unfortunately I have to deal with this stuff for my job, for hospitals.
@TOPPING @Morris_Dancer
Yes I've been ignoring the whole COVID discussion for over a year and just done what I was told by the government, but have recently been getting increasingly concerned with the rise of vaccine passports (seemingly in a global and coordinated fashion), so thought I'd find somewhere to comment.
Having laughed at the conspiracy theorists a year ago who claimed we'd have a vaccine passport system coming attached to a subscription medical service with endless boosters, I now have to admit that they look like they could have been right all along.
Even though I've been vaccinated, I certainly won't be getting a vaccine passport as it is a complete violation of all our civil liberties, not just those who have not been vaccinated.
Here is an account of how the passports have changed life in a few short weeks in Lithuania:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451714806721957891.html
"But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show."
Yes this a fair point, which I had overlooked (as are others which I can't all reply to in one post sadly). I guess the question is how much less likely with newer and future strains. If it is significant, then with the large number of people who have already taken the vaccine then it should already reduce transmission enough to end the pandemic and vaccine passports are unnecessary. If it isn't, then again vaccine passports make no logical sense.
With natural immunity is growing all the time as more people have been infected combined with the majority being vaccinated, if what we're told is true, then the pandemic should be ending soon anyway. No passports required.
I will go back into lurking mode now.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/anti-vaccine-protest-school-gateshead-21753875
These guys want prosecuting. I can think of a number of offences.
Wise words from the great man
And on a relevant point
Premier league titles
Manchester United 13
Liverpool 1
Can't the Tory party install him as the recall by election candidate anyway?
Always welcome voices with whatever views- in particular when I agree with them so I do have a vested interest in you staying...
Also two really really annoying things about the BBC
Thought for the Day - God knows why Radio 4 persist with this tripe which is always a seniro religious figure getting on the latest woke bandwagon and not only contorting it so that it excuses religion but also making it sound like their religion supported the wokeness all its existence. A sickly 5 minutes of OTT patronising hypocritical drivel.
"fact checking " usually done with anyone on the right of politics who has said something that is slightly off message . Smacks of compete arrogance and bias - as if the BBC is the absolute authority on truth and integrity?
1. Should women - whether straight or lesbian - be coerced into sex and/or accused of being phobic because they do not fancy someone? No. Of course not. You do not need a poll to say this. It is a straightforward matter of principle. Does this happen? There is some evidence - largely anecdotal - that it does.
2. Is a poll based on 80 people very reliable? Not really. There has been some well-deserved criticism of a claim that 1 in 4 trans children are suicidal. This was based on a poll of 27 people and did not even prove what some claimed. If it is fair to criticise trans activists for using dodgy statistics based on dodgy polls then one should not in turn rely on polls based on a tiny sample.
Sauce for the goose etc ....
Read the question properly, the question was not exclusively using public transport.
I appreciate if it gets out of hand that it might not be possible.
I can say with some certainty that none of the present mangers of Liverpool, City or Chelsea will be in their jobs as long as Alex
1. Doesn't necessarily increase green generation in the UK - if the needs of people on these tariffs can be met enitrely through existing green generation then - indeed - other peole just get notionally more of the 'dirty' stuff
2. If everyone signed up for such a tariff then we'd be royally screwed at present. We'd reach that point at present (perhaps? depends how many on such tariffs) if green customers consumption had to be matched with green generation on e.g. an hourly or daily basis
My mum likes to recount stories of people relatively near to the then new nuclear power station thinking they should get cheaper electricity and how silly that is with a national grid. But even then, when you think about generation losses over distance, even on the very high V lines, it is cheaper to serve electricity to people living closer to a generation source (better matching would also reduce the needed capacity of long distance lines - lots of domestic solar plus battery for example, could reduce grid requirements).
"using public transport as much as possible" could mean anything from never using it to always using it.
I've always felt that Arsenal being managed by Arsene Wenger was a bit of nominative determinism though.
The London-based obsessives who think that public transport is the bees knees are a tiny majority in this country.
One of the UK's larger generators (SSE) has already started to move its business completely to renewables.
I cannot recall when I have ever used public transport in my area and no doubt many will find that astonishing but it is par for most of us