politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In a week dominated by the EU UKIP’s Douglas Carswell is th

Jonathan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

“Labour already needs a 1997-sized lead to get a majority of just one seat. It looks as if it’s going to be even more difficult on these numbers,” Mr Baston said.

They said stuff like that in 1992. Labour could never win a majority again they said.

Guff like this was spouted about the Conservatives in 2015 too. The electoral bias in this country is always changing anyhow. It could be true for 2020 mind - we'll see.

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

If true, that is bizarre.

If true.

Barnesian said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

The reports don't say Cameron is going after Gove. They say Cameron is being urged by some anonymous people to remove Gove. I'm sure Cameron won't. It's just the Telegraph stirring.

You sound like someone who would believe "friends of the minister" as really being the source. There's no way his aides would be giving full quotes to the press without the PM's permission. The Telegraph isn't making up those quotes.

Cameron prolly won't sack him, but its a warning shot across his bow to take a lower profile in campaign.

NorfolkTilIDie said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Sean Fear

Gove has conducted himself with the utmost integrity and done everything possible to act with dignity, and keep it non-personal.

If Cameron pushes him too far, and it turns nasty; I think he will walk.

I can't see any upside to firing Gove, or to pushing him into a position where he has no choice but to resign. I can see an enormous downside, and I can't believe Cameron would be so stupid. That really would trigger an almighty conflict within the Conservative Party, because it would show that the promise of a free vote was a sham.

Think its clear at this point that Cameron cares more about EU membership than integrity of Tory party.

Though of course after waging all out war on Leave supporters, he'll then demand reconciliation and unity afterwards.

David Cameron is up for this because it will define his legacy not because of his liking of the EU. As for posters on here jumping on every story as if it was fact based when most of the print media seem to have lost all sense of balance is unwise. I cannot think for one minute that DC would demote Gove, but he may promote him to higher office but not in Justice

For Southam, can you skip over this post, it won't be good for your blood pressure

John McDonnell has caused anger in Labour for calling on the compliance unit that weeds out entryists to be abolished. See tomorrow's Times.

NorfolkTilIDie said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

Too many Leave supporters will not forgive Cameron for beating them.

That's the nub of it, and really, they should get over themselves. Cameron has delivered on his commitment to hold a referendum. No-one can seriously cry foul that he is on the other side of the argument. The leave campaign has had years or even decades to form a coherent narrative and movement to convince the people to vote to leave. If it doesn't happen now the recriminations should be in their own camp.

The problem hasn't been so much his backing of Remain but gutter tactics against his own party in carrying out that support.

Cameron is just behaving with the ruthlessness needed of all effective leaders.

The Remain case is a perfectly respectable one. Cameron has delivered a referendum and a deal, whatever one might think of it. The government's position is to recommend Remain. Of course, Cameron is going to do whatever it takes to win it.

Leave have not so far go their act together and it's not as if they haven't had plenty of time to prepare. That is not Cameron's fault.

I have never been a particular fan of Cameron or his EU deal. But I think there is rather too much looking at the motes in other's eyes rather than in the beams in one's own by the Leave campaign.

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

NorfolkTilIDie said:

Barnesian said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

The reports don't say Cameron is going after Gove. They say Cameron is being urged by some anonymous people to remove Gove. I'm sure Cameron won't. It's just the Telegraph stirring.

You sound like someone who would believe "friends of the minister" as really being the source. There's no way his aides would be giving full quotes to the press without the PM's permission. The Telegraph isn't making up those quotes.

Cameron prolly won't sack him, but its a warning shot across his bow to take a lower profile in campaign.

I think you are right but Gove should go for it and to hell with the threats.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

NorfolkTilIDie said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Sean Fear

Gove has conducted himself with the utmost integrity and done everything possible to act with dignity, and keep it non-personal.

If Cameron pushes him too far, and it turns nasty; I think he will walk.

I can't see any upside to firing Gove, or to pushing him into a position where he has no choice but to resign. I can see an enormous downside, and I can't believe Cameron would be so stupid. That really would trigger an almighty conflict within the Conservative Party, because it would show that the promise of a free vote was a sham.

Think its clear at this point that Cameron cares more about EU membership than integrity of Tory party.

Though of course after waging all out war on Leave supporters, he'll then demand reconciliation and unity afterwards.

David Cameron is up for this because it will define his legacy not because of his liking of the EU. As for posters on here jumping on every story as if it was fact based when most of the print media seem to have lost all sense of balance is unwise. I cannot think for one minute that DC would demote Gove, but he may promote him to higher office but not in Justice

With respect, the claim its just the media making up lies about their man is reminiscent of Republicans refusing to acknowledge facts. Is Laura Kuensburg at the BBC part of the conspiracy with her reporting??

Shaun Keasey @baggiebod
Proud! UKIP West Mids region unanimously voted in favour of my motion in support of equality and SSM @ukiplgbt @PeterTatchell @FloLewis1

Tykejohnno said:

Shaun Keasey @baggiebod
Proud! UKIP West Mids region unanimously voted in favour of my motion in support of equality and SSM @ukiplgbt @PeterTatchell @FloLewis1

The West Midlands is going to experience a monsoon then.

If Cameron bears grudges as much as some have written on here, then he is morphing into the previous inmate of No 10.

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Looking at that Lewis Baston analysis, the Tories would have more MPs than Labour in Scotland. 1 v 0

Glory be

NorfolkTilIDie said:

kle4 said:

NorfolkTilIDie said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

Too many Leave supporters will not forgive Cameron for beating them.

That's the nub of it, and really, they should get over themselves. Cameron has delivered on his commitment to hold a referendum. No-one can seriously cry foul that he is on the other side of the argument. The leave campaign has had years or even decades to form a coherent narrative and movement to convince the people to vote to leave. If it doesn't happen now the recriminations should be in their own camp.

The problem hasn't been so much his backing of Remain but gutter tactics against his own party in carrying out that support.

His tacticds.

There would have been a hardcore who would always done it, but its much bigger number because of Cameron's poor negotiation.

That's why I said his tactics have not helped. But the level of hurt expressed at facing political tactics from Cameron, the level of vitriol, is from my perspective disproportionate, and I worry a lot of it is setting up excuses for why Leave will lose, when I personally have long felt that even with dastardly tactics helping it, Remain is very vulnerable to a good Leave campaign. That many of the criticisms of Cameron are so extreme and blunt, that those MPs who support him are dismissed as careerists (not that some are not, but maybe a lot of them agree with him), just comes across as lazy comforting that they didn't have a chance really, and it's not their fault if they fail.

Even Douglas Carswell thinks Cameron did try to get something substantive from the EU negotiations, he says so in the podcast as I mentioned earlier(he just thinks he failed, and likely that failure was inevitable) - but there are clearly plenty in the Tory party who would bite his head off for suggesting Cameron had any other thought than betraying this country.

I'll be very disappointed if we Remain in June (though I confess with a small part of guilty relief that I got to vote out and not face any risk from that choice - I'm not proud of that, and admit it in part to shore up my resolve not to give in to Project Fear and vote Remain) and I do think Cameron is trying to sell a crap deal and he's doing it now because if we wait for more crises to happen, he'd definitely lose even with a better deal. But there's enough Leave support in media and establishment, and the case strong enough, that it should still be able to win. It'll be on us, the public, who will have been informed of any stitch up or unfairness, if we still vote Remain.

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

Yes

Worse than Blair and Brown ??

TheScreamingEagles said:

Tykejohnno said:

Shaun Keasey @baggiebod
Proud! UKIP West Mids region unanimously voted in favour of my motion in support of equality and SSM @ukiplgbt @PeterTatchell @FloLewis1

The West Midlands is going to experience a monsoon then.

Still no praise.

kle4 said:

kle4 said:

Carswell, unlike some Tories, seems to think Cameron went to the EU and argued for reform in good faith, I see (although he failed, obviously).

Given how often he repeats the point, perhaps 'Take back control' should be the Leave slogan?

He really likes pushing the point about the vast majority of UKIP councillors backing VoteLeave too, doesn't he? I've seen him write it several times, and he brings it up here - was he expecting something different, or is it a swipe at Grassroots Out or something?

Its a swipe at Grassroots out but primarily it is a message to the Electoral Commission who will have to decide which group to give official status to. It is remarkable that practically every UKIP councilor is backing Vote Leave rather than the officially UKIP backed G.O.

kle4 said:

NorfolkTilIDie said:

kle4 said:

NorfolkTilIDie said:

williamglenn said:

kle4 said:

Too many Leave supporters will not forgive Cameron for beating them.

That's the nub of it, and really, they should get over themselves. Cameron has delivered on his commitment to hold a referendum. No-one can seriously cry foul that he is on the other side of the argument. The leave campaign has had years or even decades to form a coherent narrative and movement to convince the people to vote to leave. If it doesn't happen now the recriminations should be in their own camp.

The problem hasn't been so much his backing of Remain but gutter tactics against his own party in carrying out that support.

His tacticds.

There would have been a hardcore who would always done it, but its much bigger number because of Cameron's poor negotiation.

That's why I said his tactics have not helped. But the level of hurt expressed at facing political tactics from Cameron, the level of vitriol, is from my perspective disproportionate, and I worry a lot of it is setting up excuses for why Leave will lose, when I personally have long felt that even with dastardly tactics helping it, Remain is very vulnerable to a good Leave campaign. That many of the criticisms of Cameron are so extreme and blunt, that those MPs who support him are dismissed as careerists (not that some are not, but maybe a lot of them agree with him), just comes across as lazy comforting that they didn't have a chance really, and it's not their fault if they fail.

Even Douglas Carswell thinks Cameron did try to get something substantive from the EU negotiations, he says so in the podcast as I mentioned earlier(he just thinks he failed, and likely that failure was inevitable) - but there are clearly plenty in the Tory party who would bite his head off for suggesting Cameron had any other thought than betraying this country.

I'll be very disappointed if we Remain in June (though I confess with a small part of guilty relief that I got to vote out and not face any risk from that choice - I'm not proud of that, and admit it in part to shore up my resolve not to give in to Project Fear and vote Remain) and I do think Cameron is trying to sell a crap deal and he's doing it now because if we wait for more crises to happen, he'd definitely lose even with a better deal. But there's enough Leave support in media and establishment, and the case strong enough, that it should still be able to win. It'll be on us, the public, who will have been informed of any stitch up or unfairness, if we still vote Remain.

Very well expressed

Barnesian said:

Sean_F said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

If true, that is bizarre.

If true.

Laura Kuenssberg is the stirrer in this story. Just watch her interview with Gove around 12:08.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35649136

She asks him if he thinks the agreement is legally binding. He says "yes". She says "That's not quite the answer". I.e not quite the answer she wanted. After further pressing she states "You are saying clearly it [the agreement] can be chucked out." He hedged his statement. What's she playing at?

Agreed. She looked out of her depth in that interview. Unfortunately she's studied at the Marr/Robinson school of political journalism.

Tony Blair warns US voters not to copy the UK Labour party by electing Bernie Sanders as he admits he's baffled at the popularity of Jeremy Corbyn

Tykejohnno said:

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Well why didn't he just decline to sign it then?

Luckyguy1983 said:

Tykejohnno said:

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Well why didn't he just decline to sign it then?

Age ?

Norm said:

Tykejohnno said:

Lord Owen: 'EU has tested us to breaking point - it's time to leave'

'Cameron's negotiation has shown why it is now too late to reform the EU from within in any significant way.'

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6954770/Lord-Owen-EU-has-tested-us-to-breaking-point-Now-its-time-to-leave.html

Interesting - I've always rather admired David Owen.

I do now.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Tykejohnno said:

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Well why didn't he just decline to sign it then?

A war hero unable to resist a piece of paper and accompanying pen?

foxinsoxuk said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Tykejohnno said:

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Well why didn't he just decline to sign it then?

A war hero unable to resist a piece of paper and accompanying pen?

Quite. It's hardly the charge of the Light brigade.

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

Yes

Worse than Blair and Brown ??

If it turns out everything he has told us was a lie, and he knew it, then yes. Some very astute people on here have suggested we could be forced into the Euro by default if the City protections are not as they seem, or actually worse than we have now as Charles suggests, then definitely yes.

You seem very bitter and no doubt are concerned that remain will win. Rather than attacking a highly successful Prime Minister maybe you should make a positive case to me to leave. I have said on several occasions that my heart wants to leave but my head says remain. Persuade me with your alternative vision

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

Yes

Worse than Blair and Brown ??

If it turns out everything he has told us was a lie, and he knew it, then yes. Some very astute people on here have suggested we could be forced into the Euro by default if the City protections are not as they seem, or actually worse than we have now as Charles suggests, then definitely yes.

Its pretty desperate to suggest we can or would be forced into the Euro.

Tykejohnno said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Tykejohnno said:

War hero felt pressured by No.10 into signing pro Europe letter

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, one of Britain's most decorated military heros, says Downing Street presented him with pro Europe letter as 'fait accompli'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html

Well why didn't he just decline to sign it then?

Age ?

He's feisty enough to blab to the papers about it now.

The unravelling of this idiotic letter is all very embarrassing for Remain, but the fact is it won't make the front page headline, which the initial letter did.

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

This really is getting ridiculous. Cameron is putting winning the EU vote ahead of the good governance of the country. How can you have a situation where no one in the Justice department is allowed access to a significant proportion of their documents for 4 months. Are we simply going to say no Justice decisions can be made for a third of the year?

Cameron is a fecking lunatic.

Wanderer said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Sean Fear

Gove has conducted himself with the utmost integrity and done everything possible to act with dignity, and keep it non-personal.

If Cameron pushes him too far, and it turns nasty; I think he will walk.

I can't see any upside to firing Gove, or to pushing him into a position where he has no choice but to resign. I can see an enormous downside, and I can't believe Cameron would be so stupid. That really would trigger an almighty conflict within the Conservative Party, because it would show that the promise of a free vote was a sham.

My first reaction to the Telegraph front page was to think it was just stirring. On reflection I wonder if it is meant to be a warning shot that, if Remain wins easily there will be negative consequences for some - not all, but you don't know which - Leavers.

There's a remark of Lincoln's - This government cannot much longer play a game in which it stakes all, and its enemies stake nothing - which might sum up what Cameron is thinking. He, after all, is certainly out on his arse if he loses. He may not find himself warming to the idea that Gove's job is safe either way.

But I think Gove will not be fired in the event. Better to choose someone less competent and articulate and less of a threat on the backbenches.

I did an 'A' level in politics a long time ago and what I always find peculiar is how few of the fundamental rules change. 'Collective responsibiity' is as central now as it was then. There was never a chance of Cameron being able to allow Cabinet ministers to do their own thing. Gove will be gone before the week end as I said yesterday

Richard_Tyndall said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

This really is getting ridiculous. Cameron is putting winning the EU vote ahead of the good governance of the country. How can you have a situation where no one in the Justice department is allowed access to a significant proportion of their documents for 4 months. Are we simply going to say no Justice decisions can be made for a third of the year?

Cameron is a fecking lunatic.

And someone (hello Boris?) needs to grow a pair and say so.

foxinsoxuk said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

Tykejohnno said:

Lord Owen: 'EU has tested us to breaking point - it's time to leave'

'Cameron's negotiation has shown why it is now too late to reform the EU from within in any significant way.'

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6954770/Lord-Owen-EU-has-tested-us-to-breaking-point-Now-its-time-to-leave.html

Do you suspect the photo editor had to get approval from Owen about the choice of picture?

Really surprised that Owen has come out for LEAVE. He has always been the epitome of stay in and reform.

Owen was once a very clever man. He later set up a party that was of refuseniks to the LibDems, prefering the "its my party..." approach. With an ego and arrogance that is hard to contain he now comes out for Leave. What is it about Leave that attracts leaders of personality cult parties?

The fact they're not careerist sycophants obsessed with clambering up the greasy pole?

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

Or perhaps to the Europa Cup? Thats a contest that seems perpetual too. I wish Spurs a long and successful cup campaign or two!

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

Yes

Worse than Blair and Brown ??

If it turns out everything he has told us was a lie, and he knew it, then yes. Some very astute people on here have suggested we could be forced into the Euro by default if the City protections are not as they seem, or actually worse than we have now as Charles suggests, then definitely yes.

You seem very bitter and no doubt are concerned that remain will win. Rather than attacking a highly successful Prime Minister maybe you should make a positive case to me to leave. I have said on several occasions that my heart wants to leave but my head says remain. Persuade me with your alternative vision

He cannot make a positive case for leave. All he has is bile.
A positive case for leave is to joint EFTA / EEA and remain in the single market. And that is to be pretty much the same as now including free movement of labour.
Leave's only stinking tactic is to wave a shroud at the crisis in Syria which has nothing to do with our membership of the EU, plus we are not even in Schengen.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

kle4 said:

kle4 said:

Carswell, unlike some Tories, seems to think Cameron went to the EU and argued for reform in good faith, I see (although he failed, obviously).

Given how often he repeats the point, perhaps 'Take back control' should be the Leave slogan?

He really likes pushing the point about the vast majority of UKIP councillors backing VoteLeave too, doesn't he? I've seen him write it several times, and he brings it up here - was he expecting something different, or is it a swipe at Grassroots Out or something?

Its a swipe at Grassroots out but primarily it is a message to the Electoral Commission who will have to decide which group to give official status to. It is remarkable that practically every UKIP councilor is backing Vote Leave rather than the officially UKIP backed G.O.

Which explains this

http://order-order.com/2016/02/24/suzanne-evans-out-as-ukip-deputy-chair/

Yep. This is why I said that I think UKIP will disintegrate after the referendum.

If LEAVE wins then UKIP will either have to dramatically change or lose a lot of support from those like me who were only interested in it as a means to an end. I would suggest that the Euro driven UKIP membership is perhaps a third of the total at least. For many of us to stay the Carswell tendency would have to win out and I simply don't see that happening.

If REMAIN wins then the blood letting will be catastrophic for the party and I can't see Farage surviving the backlash.

foxinsoxuk said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

Or perhaps to the Europa Cup? Thats a contest that seems perpetual too. I wish Spurs a long and successful cup campaign or two!

Just the one I think

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

flightpath01 said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

nigel4england said:

Tykejohnno said:

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

nigel4england said:

Alistair said:

I honesty cannot believe these reports about Cameron going after Gove.

It makes zero sense to attack someone who has been so polite in their dissention. It would put Gove in a "nothing to lose" situation and makes a mockery of allowing cabinet members to campaign for out.

It also smacks of weakness.

Far from being the great Statesman we all thought he was, Cameron is showing himself to be a childish bully who lashes out if he cannot get his own way.

Assuming the story is true.

Not just this story, but the way he has behaved in the Commons this week.

Or things like this -

David Allen Green @DavidAllenGreen
The Prime Minister has ordered that the Lord Chancellor cannot now have advice on EU law. Extraordinary. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/702546674586140672 …

As stated below he cares more about the EU than his own party.

The more stories that leak out like this the more the public will wonder what he has to hide, he could end up being the most hated PM ever.

Are you serious

Yes

Worse than Blair and Brown ??

If it turns out everything he has told us was a lie, and he knew it, then yes. Some very astute people on here have suggested we could be forced into the Euro by default if the City protections are not as they seem, or actually worse than we have now as Charles suggests, then definitely yes.

Its pretty desperate to suggest we can or would be forced into the Euro.

It's been suggested on here by some very bright people.

I don't think that we can be forced into the Euro, and even Nick P with his prediction that we would be in in 20 years stipulated that it would need a referendum.

I could only see us wanting to join if there was a massive Sterling inflation, with the Euro demonstrating DM like stability, and that would be like Greece, a particularly unsuitable time to join.

It would take a complete collapse in UK economic confidence and disastrous mismanagement, fortunately it seems npxmo isn't expecting his lot back in power any time soon if he thinks it'll be 20 yrs for us to reach that calamitous position.....

Scott_P said:

Cyclefree said:

Cameron is just behaving with the ruthlessness needed of all effective leaders.

The Leavers would kill for someone as "bad at negotiating" and "untrustworthy" as Cameron to lead their campaign.

Instead they got the Marx brothers

Cameron "negotiated" a deal worse than that between Darth Vader and Lando Calrissian in "The Empire Strikes Back".

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

Or perhaps to the Europa Cup? Thats a contest that seems perpetual too. I wish Spurs a long and successful cup campaign or two!

Just the one I think

Ah yes! I forgot that Crystal Palace have revived.

Arsenal seem to want "to concentrate on the League" too.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Scott_P said:

Cyclefree said:

Cameron is just behaving with the ruthlessness needed of all effective leaders.

The Leavers would kill for someone as "bad at negotiating" and "untrustworthy" as Cameron to lead their campaign.

Instead they got the Marx brothers

Cameron "negotiated" a deal worse than that between Darth Vader and Lando Calrissian in "The Empire Strikes Back".

You surely do not think we will be informed MEPs and others will be 'altering the deal'? For shame.

Good night all.

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

DTWNBPOTUS / HRCWNBPOTUS

Roger said:

Wanderer said:

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Sean Fear

Gove has conducted himself with the utmost integrity and done everything possible to act with dignity, and keep it non-personal.

If Cameron pushes him too far, and it turns nasty; I think he will walk.

I can't see any upside to firing Gove, or to pushing him into a position where he has no choice but to resign. I can see an enormous downside, and I can't believe Cameron would be so stupid. That really would trigger an almighty conflict within the Conservative Party, because it would show that the promise of a free vote was a sham.

My first reaction to the Telegraph front page was to think it was just stirring. On reflection I wonder if it is meant to be a warning shot that, if Remain wins easily there will be negative consequences for some - not all, but you don't know which - Leavers.

There's a remark of Lincoln's - This government cannot much longer play a game in which it stakes all, and its enemies stake nothing - which might sum up what Cameron is thinking. He, after all, is certainly out on his arse if he loses. He may not find himself warming to the idea that Gove's job is safe either way.

But I think Gove will not be fired in the event. Better to choose someone less competent and articulate and less of a threat on the backbenches.

I did an 'A' level in politics a long time ago and what I always find peculiar is how few of the fundamental rules change. 'Collective responsibiity' is as central now as it was then. There was never a chance of Cameron being able to allow Cabinet ministers to do their own thing. Gove will be gone before the week end as I said yesterday

I think Cameron would be in deep deep trouble if he sacked any of the Leave ministers at this point.

Pulpstar said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

DTWNBPOTUS / HRCWNBPOTUS

Oh the colony, I was talking the big stuff, tory surge in scatty land and sadiq saving the poorly suited one.

Perceptions are changing if even David Owen is in favour of leave.
One of the reasons he broke off from Labour to form the SDP was because Labour was too euroskeptic.

Oh and another Texas poll, with changes since January:

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/02/24/cruz-increases-lead-in-tx-against-trump-in-ktvt-cbs-11-dixie-strategies-poll/

Cruz 33 +3
Trump 25 0
Rubio 15 +3
Kasich 8 +5
Carson 6 +1

Goodnight.

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

Or perhaps to the Europa Cup? Thats a contest that seems perpetual too. I wish Spurs a long and successful cup campaign or two!

Just the one I think

Ah yes! I forgot that Crystal Palace have revived.

Arsenal seem to want "to concentrate on the League" too.

Scrapheap_as_was said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

This referendum is going to be one boring slog... how long before focus switches to the may election at least for a while. Have we a new acronym to replace eicipm?

Or perhaps to the Europa Cup? Thats a contest that seems perpetual too. I wish Spurs a long and successful cup campaign or two!

Just the one I think

Like arsenal.

Haha oh the shame

Can we sub on flamini tomorrow too to help clear the diary!?

foxinsoxuk said:

Owen was once a very clever man. He later set up a party that was of refuseniks to the LibDems, prefering the "its my party..." approach. With an ego and arrogance that is hard to contain he now comes out for Leave. What is it about Leave that attracts leaders of personality cult parties?

Recently finished Roy Jenkins' memoirs - not entirely appealing, but interesting. But it's striking that the only person in the book of 500 pages or so that he cannot bring himself to be polite about is David Owen, for reasons similar to what you imply.