OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
On the big picture it see the risk of a return to 1990s obsession with Europe as a bigger risk to the country than the EU outvoting us in QMV areas that apply to the EU but not to the EFTA.
I want this referendum to be decisive not a neverendum. I don't want the country to vote remain, I vote leave and have my vote taken as carte blanch to continue banging on about Europe.
@VickiYoung01: Press team for @NicolaSturgeon currently watching Twitter in horror. No one likes a minister fixing their own interviews @afneil
Maybe so, but her position is so strong and secure, and she able enough, that I doubt it rises to the level of horror. To borrow a Trumpism, she could shoot someone in the face and not lose support at the moment.
The Germans benefit from running the Euro and the trade in goods.
The French benefit from CAP.
Spain and Italy benefit from a stabilising influence on their economies.
And a host of smaller countries benefit by being part of the club.
I can see why everyone else likes the EU, but they don't seem to want to reciprocate. Indeed they want to make decisions that benefit the Euro at the expense of our major industry (finance).
I don't see anything that changes this, so what is the point of being shackled to the EU? Boris may be hoping for a better a deal (don't we all), I just don't see it happening.
Gerard Lyons @DrGerardLyons "3/ Chief Exec of CityUK praised the deal ... I am on the board of CityUK & thought deal far from what City wanted or needed"
Yes, but for the most part the deal has been well received by the City.
What we really need is a heavyweight report by City lawyers on the effect on the City of the three options (Remain, Leave/EEA, Leave/Something else). I expect there will be some such reports over the next couple of months.
There have been loads of such reports already. They ping into my inbox on a daily basis.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
Boris Johnson sounds genuinely tortured. His current position will satisfy no one, including himself.
Bit bitter are we?
Not at all. As anyone who has read my posts on this over the last two days would know, I think he's made the right choice for him. He needs to lead though.
"..all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No."
He's in the 2nd referendum to get a better deal camp, then.
I doubt the other EU leaders will be pleased if they are forced to go through another round of negotiations. I'm of the view this is as good as it gets.
Who knows?
I think the EU.
If I truly believed the collective body of EU bureaucrats and the leaders who support them were capable of reform, under any circumstance, I would still be a Remainer. I can picture some being willing to take another look at a whole range of issues in panic as they realise we are heading for the exit, but I don't think collectively they would be capable of agreeing that as a position, especially as sizable portions of their populations would be telling us to get stuffed, even if their politicians told them losing us for real would be worth extra concessions (if not to get us to change our minds, which would be to late to achieve I think, then at least to prevent the possibility of others joining us). We already hear ad naseum that the EU is sick of us whining, and there's a reason for that - even if it is an exaggeration, their populations support the EU and its current path, and most don't like how far we push even on the points they have sympathy on, so if we left, chances are just as high they would double down on things people don't like and dare others to join us in the exit as they would be to try to fix things to stop the contagion
So while they won't shrug and move on like nothing happens, even if some of them think they could, I just do not see how any action they would be able to take would change things significantly. It's in its bones.
The EU bureaucrats are more interested in maintaining their own jobs in Brussels above anything else. All the measures to try to prop up the Euro simply aren't going work, absent of a consolidation of the debts of eurozone members. You can't create confidence in a currency by adopting measures such as negative interest rates against the wishes of people. At the end of the day, the value of money derives from the confidence of the people using it, in the expectation that everyone will accept using it too. That confidence in the euro is not far off breaking point.
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
I'm not surprised that Boris is equivocal in his Telegraph piece.
I don't buy this self-interest stuff. Boris is a smart cookie who wants to be PM. He'll know that a hard line Eurosceptic stance may well win him the Tory leadership but - given the way the polls are, and the lack of affection for the Conservatives in general - not Downing Street.
As Casino alluded to below, I suspect Boris has reluctantly gone with his principles because he feels the deal is underwhelming. The difficulty now is, if he indeed he believes he could one day negotiate a better deal, convincing us voters that the other EU countries are willing to sign-up to dramatic, UK-benefiting changes. They aren't. Boris isn't really in a great spot.
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
We survived the Battle of Britain, the Cold War, and even the big freeze of 1963.
@steverichards14: Boris Tel column shows he is not for 'out'. Instead he argues the rest of the EU will 'listen' if UK votes 'out'.. An unconvincing Third Way
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
@ShippersUnbound: Boris's article makes clear he still wants to have his cake and eat it - a no vote to get concessions. It is au revoir to Brussels not adieu
@steverichards14: Boris Tel column shows he is not for 'out'. Instead he argues the rest of the EU will 'listen' if UK votes 'out'.. An unconvincing Third Way
The most prominent outer, is not an outer...
Is Cameron the luckiest PM in history?
Yes, he means they will listen as we negotiate a new trade oriented relationship. I don't know why people are struggling with this.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
@ShippersUnbound: Boris is backing a No vote but not necessarily Brexit. Last February he told me he wanted to lead the renegotiation. He still does.
@EdConwaySky: Boris column underlines biggest problem facing the Leave camp: there is still no coherent policy on what happens next after a Brexit vote
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
We survived the Battle of Britain, the Cold War, and even the big freeze of 1963.
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
We survived the Battle of Britain, the Cold War, and even the big freeze of 1963.
I think we'll cope.
The UK is a truly great country, it has long looked outward and will continue to do so, EU member or not.
@ShippersUnbound: Boris is backing a No vote but not necessarily Brexit. Last February he told me he wanted to lead the renegotiation. He still does.
@EdConwaySky: Boris column underlines biggest problem facing the Leave camp: there is still no coherent policy on what happens next after a Brexit vote
What does the Rees Mogg parody account have to say?
Jones said the tactic on doorsteps would be to emphasise that candidates represent Welsh Labour, not the UK party. “It’s a Welsh election,” he said. “This is Welsh Labour, which in terms of policy is autonomous. We develop our own policies, our own laws – there’s no influence from London at all”
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
Why don't we just abolish democracy and let Osborne be Chancellor for Life as that will eliminate uncertainty too.
Jones said the tactic on doorsteps would be to emphasise that candidates represent Welsh Labour, not the UK party. “It’s a Welsh election,” he said. “This is Welsh Labour, which in terms of policy is autonomous. We develop our own policies, our own laws – there’s no influence from London at all”
The Welsh Labour Party with the fantastic record on NHS, education, etc? By fantastic, I mean shitter than England.
@tnewtondunn: Boris: the plot thickens. Strong suggestion in his Telegraph column he'll Vote Leave for a better deal to Remain; https://t.co/m3XtoWcyEH
BoJo has managed to shoot himself in the foot with his first act
Boris appears to be advocating doing the hokey cokey...
He thus wants to stay in the EU. This all goes to again show show that even with a leave vote then the arguments will only just be beginning. Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs? Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
We survived the Battle of Britain, the Cold War, and even the big freeze of 1963.
I think we'll cope.
The UK is a truly great country, it has long looked outward and will continue to do so, EU member or not.
I agree, and it's one reason why despite uncertainty I think we'll be fine if we leave, although of course there will be difficulties. But oddly, it's one area Hannan and some others don't agree. I recall getting to the end of his book, which had talked about how great we were, in essence, how much overcome, and then seemed to end oddly flatly with 'but the EU is too much for us', strangely pessimistic. I don't think we should have to overcome it, but if we are to stay in, we'll struggle through.
@ShippersUnbound: Boris's article makes clear he still wants to have his cake and eat it - a no vote to get concessions. It is au revoir to Brussels not adieu
I have just managed to lose all the respect for Boris Johnson that I'd just gained...
Just read Boris's article. I don't agree with the second referendum meme he genuinely seems convinced that leaving is right because there's no end to the ratchet. I imagine his talk of a better alternative to be along the lines of EFTA not a second remain vote.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Just read Boris's article. I don't agree with the second referendum meme he genuinely seems convinced that leaving is right because there's no end to the ratchet. I imagine his talk of a better alternative to be along the lines of EFTA not a second remain vote.
Perhaps he will enlightened in next weeks exciting installment.
@ShippersUnbound: Boris's article makes clear he still wants to have his cake and eat it - a no vote to get concessions. It is au revoir to Brussels not adieu
I have just managed to lose all the respect for Boris Johnson that I'd just gained...
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus.
Yeah but I at least give him credit for trying to tackle an awfully complex, emotive problem. And one that has genuinely ruined hundreds of thousands of young lives.
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
Have you got anything positive to say about the EU?
I've been waiting all night, Philip had a couple of points that were batted away easier than an Ashley Giles straight arm ball, if you have any bouncers to chuck at me then bring it on.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
@mwjfrome 17 Let's hear your arguments for or against policy, not merely smearing people because you have no arguments.
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
Have you got anything positive to say about the EU?
I've been waiting all night, Philip had a couple of points that were batted away easier than an Ashley Giles straight arm ball, if you have any bouncers to chuck at me then bring it on.
Batted away? Even committed Leavers agreed there is no way to guarantee the French would not be spiteful and prevent us getting a free trade deal. If you want to put your head in the sand and just wish away the risks then that doesn't make you right or bright.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
Certainly if we have to listen to your increasingly hysterical outpourings
Sorry but that line won't work. The hysterics are plain to see and its all Leave. I can't stop you living on your sad little dream world but a read SMukesh's little comment and I can see what the anti Tories hope to get out of the referendum. Unlike some conservatives on here I am clearly not brainless and can see what conservative opponents hope for.
Just read Boris's article. I don't agree with the second referendum meme he genuinely seems convinced that leaving is right because there's no end to the ratchet. I imagine his talk of a better alternative to be along the lines of EFTA not a second remain vote.
Leave's free movement problem is a major one. Do they want to end it or not? I guess it depends who you ask, but it's Boris and the Tories who will be doing the negotiating.
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
Have you got anything positive to say about the EU?
I've been waiting all night, Philip had a couple of points that were batted away easier than an Ashley Giles straight arm ball, if you have any bouncers to chuck at me then bring it on.
Batted away? Even committed Leavers agreed there is no way to guarantee the French would not be spiteful and prevent us getting a free trade deal. If you want to put your head in the sand and just wish away the risks then that doesn't make you right or bright.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
The fact is nobody really knows what the City would look like after Brexit. Losing the single market would be a big hit to euro denominated business, probably, but there could be offsetting benefits in less aggressively socialist, controlling regulation. And the euro business might come back.
In the end, its a judgement call.
Apologies for my lack of knowledge on this bit what would happen to the EU if we left?
And given the issues around the CAP, would farming in this country benefit from Brexit?
RE: farming, we could design a farm subsidy system (if any) that was tailored to UK needs (eg supporting marginal hill farmers vs Lincolnshire agribusinesses). And the cost of food would probably fall for consumers.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
So you think it would be right to carry on integrating without asking permission from the People?
Provision for a referendum on a treaty change already exists. This isn't a treaty change. This is the Conservative Party trying to exorcise its own demons of its own volition.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Certainly if we have to listen to your increasingly hysterical outpourings
Sorry but that line won't work. The hysterics are plain to see and its all Leave. I can't stop you living on your sad little dream world but a read SMukesh's little comment and I can see what the anti Tories hope to get out of the referendum. Unlike some conservatives on here I am clearly not brainless and can see what conservative opponents hope for.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
[snippety snip]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
Have you considered returning to just lurking?
You really are a spectacularly unpleasant individual.
OK I feel like facing a dilemma that I never imagined and genuinely no longer know how to vote or who to support. I'm feeling turned off by everyone.
I can't stand the argument to stay in the EU so that Parliament can't decide on social issues and we keep unproductive socialist 'rights'. Parliament should be sovereign. I can't stand the argument to leave the EU to stop immigration, I think reciprocal free movement between developed economies is a good thing.
I've despised "obsessed about Europe" Tories since the 90's. I couldn't stand IDS or Redwood. I could never imagine wanting to Leave. But Gove's leave argument was very convincing and well written and I really am not sure whether or why I want to Remain anymore.
Ultimately I am currently thinking that the absolute worst case scenario is a narrow Remain win that keeps this like an open sore. Better either a Remain landslide (over 60%) or any Leave victory that makes Parliament sovereign and closes this once and for all. I'm genuinely no longer sure which I prefer though.
Feels very weird not to be sure how to vote during a campaign.
Vote Leave, then. We should be free to determine what we want. I suspect we will end up in EFTA anyway, meaning that there will be a reasonable amount of immigration in any event
Ha ! What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are. The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced. The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split. I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
Have you got anything positive to say about the EU?
I've been waiting all night, Philip had a couple of points that were batted away easier than an Ashley Giles straight arm ball, if you have any bouncers to chuck at me then bring it on.
Batted away? Even committed Leavers agreed there is no way to guarantee the French would not be spiteful and prevent us getting a free trade deal. If you want to put your head in the sand and just wish away the risks then that doesn't make you right or bright.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
Good laugh that coming from someone who wants to play with my money, well anyone's except his own.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't. -
-------'---------------'--------------------------------------------------------------- LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
The fact that as long as Corbyn is Labour leader they win the next general election easily.
Beat me to it.. Corbyn's leadership has, ironically, enabled the Tory party to appear as fractured as it likes.... with immunity.
That might give a level of hope to Jezza's successor - if, and it's a big if given we're talking about the Stupid Party here, the person concerned is relatively mainstream.
To begin with the French are just one out of 26, however if they do want to impose a trade tariff then fine, there will be a reciprocal arrangement. We would be forced into protectionism of their making, no bad thing. We cannot lose given the trade deficit.
Fancy a game of poker?
We can lose as you are proposing a game of Russian Roulette not Poker. The fact that protectionism would hurt them does not mean it won't hurt us too. Plus since the French and others have shown themselves to not be economically rational it is naive to assume they won't do the wrong thing.
Explain to me what we lose?
Free trade. We lose on exports that we lose due to their Tariffs, we lose on imports that are made more expensive by our own Tariffs. Lose, lose.
You only have to consider how ranting many of the Tories are on this EU issue from this quoted in the Guardian
Lisa Parker, a councillor from Rugby who said she was disgusted by how the party was dealing with the European issue.
“We’ve had to consult 27 countries just to talk about reform. We’ve sold this country out and we’re being ruled by the European Union – by people who hate us, who loathe us. I’ll be voting out, and campaigning every weekend. For the first time in my life I’m questioning if this is the party for me,” she said.
No the Europeans do not loathe us or hate us, and neither are we being ruled by the EU, and only someone who's seriously lost the plot can believe this nonsense.
Interesting research from the Guardian. If Guido's numbers are to be believed it could be possible to have close to or slightly over 50% of Tory MPs back Brexit. If a majority of members are also in favour of Brexit this could spell trouble for Remain and Cameron. He would be at odds with not only Tory MPs but also Tory members.
Of almost 70 constituency parties contacted, only two reported a majority of party members are in favour of remaining in the European Union. Many others were reluctant to hazard a guess as to the how opinion divided in their constituency parties, but among those who did offer breakdowns, more than half a dozen reported a 50/50 split and 17 a majority in favour of leaving.
The EU campaign has proved itself capable of surprise. First, Cameron did emerge from his meetings with positive noises from the other countries that he could spin as something that was more than nothing. Then, as soon as the starting gun was fired, it was his own allies who changed the nature of the campaign by so many of them coming out against him despite all his efforts. So, all bets are off, so to speak. I still trust the phone polls much more than the online polls, so I think YES has a big lead (10%). But all the momentum is with the NO narrative, so unless the YES campaign goes for the nuclear option and scares everyone sh*tless at the prospect of leaving, I think YES lead will narrow between now and June.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't.
LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Sorry I didn't realise you lived in one of those ex-mining villages that were full of jobs. My bad.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Cuckoo
You'd know all about generational poverty in Scotland.
I've been to Glasgow..fuck me, my area is like the Bellagio in comparison.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
The most popular politician in the country campaigns for Brexit... What a disaster say the in spin
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
Johnson said 'It is time to seek a new relationship, in which we manage to extricate ourselves from most of the supranational elements'
I think almost all LEAVERS and most of the public would agree with that. And voting LEAVE is certainly the only way to get it.
I can see why Cameron would be furious because Johnson is clearly saying 'Vote Out, Get A Second Deal', which undermines the whole platform on which Cameron wants to build the In case.
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
The most popular politician in the country campaigns for Brexit... What a disaster say the in spin
Will he be campaigning? We know he won't be debating. Interviews look like they'll be off limits too. The odd column, some jolly photos, the odd speech ... Others will be doing the heavy lifting. And Boris has raised all kinds of questions about what a Leave vote actually means.
So say the headlines
And as he is the most popular politician in the country, that will probably be enough for the overwhelming number of people who aren't really interested in politics
You only have to see how many times Scott P has tried to make it seem bad news for Leave to know its a major plus for them
As for IDS saying that staying in EU would leave us more vulnerable to 'Paris style attacks' is beneath contempt. Just an old fashioned Enoch Powell style piece of claptrap.
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
The horrible bastard has dedicated a decade of his life trying to transform the lives of people living in generational poverty, when any fool knows giving them handouts and no prospect of a job is a better answer.
Universal Credit does rather seem like the Chillcott report or TSE's legendary magnum opus. Waiting for Godot.
Except UC has already started.
Years late and way over budget. At the current rate it will be 495 years before it is universal!
Comments
I want this referendum to be decisive not a neverendum. I don't want the country to vote remain, I vote leave and have my vote taken as carte blanch to continue banging on about Europe.
The Germans benefit from running the Euro and the trade in goods.
The French benefit from CAP.
Spain and Italy benefit from a stabilising influence on their economies.
And a host of smaller countries benefit by being part of the club.
I can see why everyone else likes the EU, but they don't seem to want to reciprocate. Indeed they want to make decisions that benefit the Euro at the expense of our major industry (finance).
I don't see anything that changes this, so what is the point of being shackled to the EU? Boris may be hoping for a better a deal (don't we all), I just don't see it happening.
https://twitter.com/maxkeiser/status/701463584434421760
https://www.rt.com/news/333119-german-mayor-porn-bdsm/
IDS married Elizabeth "Betsy" Fremantle, daughter of the 5th Baron Cottesloe, in 1982. The couple have four children, and live in a country house belonging to his father-in-law's estate in Swanbourne, Buckinghamshire.
Obviously some tough life choices there.
I dont mind that he does not have a high level of academic achievement as I don't either. I don't lie abut mine.
According to the BBC, Duncan Smith's biography on the Conservative Party website and his entry in Who's Who originally stated that he had studied at the University of Perugia in Italy. A BBC investigation in 2002 found this statement to be untrue.[7] In response to the BBC story, Duncan Smith's office stated that he had in fact attended the Università per Stranieri, a different institution in Perugia, for a year.[7] He did not complete his course of study, sit exams, or gain any qualifications there. Duncan Smith's biography, on the Conservative Party website, also stated that he was "educated at Dunchurch College of Management" but his office later confirmed that he did not gain any qualifications there either, that he completed six separate courses lasting a few days each, adding up to about a month in total.[7] Dunchurch was the former staff college for GEC Marconi, for whom Duncan Smith worked in the 1980s.[7]
PS I hate IDS and all he stands for.
Any guesses what that will do to shares, the stock exchange, investment, jobs?
Jobs? Investment? Yes I hear you all sneer. Well not immediately but inevitably yes. The arguments would only just start. Gawd help us.
Yup, he is a massive boon the
OUTIN campThe last one covering 2014 shows we have a current account deficit with the rest of the EU for the year of £107 billion
https://t.co/23DxuoxVda
@georgeeaton: Boris's implicit backing for second referendum based on expectation he could hold it as PM.
I don't buy this self-interest stuff. Boris is a smart cookie who wants to be PM. He'll know that a hard line Eurosceptic stance may well win him the Tory leadership but - given the way the polls are, and the lack of affection for the Conservatives in general - not Downing Street.
As Casino alluded to below, I suspect Boris has reluctantly gone with his principles because he feels the deal is underwhelming. The difficulty now is, if he indeed he believes he could one day negotiate a better deal, convincing us voters that the other EU countries are willing to sign-up to dramatic, UK-benefiting changes. They aren't. Boris isn't really in a great spot.
Just wait til Trump gets going.
We survived the Battle of Britain, the Cold War, and even the big freeze of 1963.
I think we'll cope.
The most prominent outer, is not an outer...
Is Cameron the luckiest PM in history?
Doesn't he have another tune?
@EdConwaySky: Boris column underlines biggest problem facing the Leave camp: there is still no coherent policy on what happens next after a Brexit vote
What a joke of a comment.
I sympathise with Mr Thompson. But when Boris says he is voting leave only to want to remain then you know how fractured leave are.
The one ukip mp seems to have been silenced.
The main aim of one slice of leave is to settle old scores and another to urge the Tories to split.
I am not being led up any of those garden paths but everyone has to decide for themselves
So that's the 'instant rebuttal' spin line, is it? pathetic
Certainly if we have to listen to your increasingly hysterical outpourings
Out is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMxbGOHU29U
As a leader though, he was spectacularly shite.
I've been waiting all night, Philip had a couple of points that were batted away easier than an Ashley Giles straight arm ball, if you have any bouncers to chuck at me then bring it on.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=L87C&dataset=pb&table-id=9.2
Thanks for the info.
I can't stop you living on your sad little dream world but a read SMukesh's little comment and I can see what the anti Tories hope to get out of the referendum. Unlike some conservatives on here I am clearly not brainless and can see what conservative opponents hope for.
@PolhomeEditor: Boris Johnson hints Britain could remain in EU even after Leave vote https://t.co/zcfsvsqT2O https://t.co/9E2D4l3VhX
Fancy a game of poker?
I think almost all LEAVERS and most of the public would agree with that. And voting LEAVE is certainly the only way to get it.
They get what they want.
Your patronising superior being persona is quite remarkable.
You really are a spectacularly unpleasant individual.
Sorry, are you serious. Really. A decade of his life. As far as I know he'd been an MP, a shadow minister, Leader of the Opposition (the quiet man) and then Cabinet minister. Selfless. Even though he was once party leader he is most famous for shafting his then Prime Minister over Maastricht. And who was responsible for this generational poverty. Closing the mines, the steel plants, the ship building capacity overnight and replacing with the odd call centre. Who was that. His heroine. Selling off council housing. How did that work our for social mobility? The drug and alcohol problems that followed on. Do you ever wonder what the costs have been of these policies rather than the perceived costs of having communities in work. No. You don't. -
-------'---------------'---------------------------------------------------------------
LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Lisa Parker, a councillor from Rugby who said she was disgusted by how the party was dealing with the European issue.
“We’ve had to consult 27 countries just to talk about reform. We’ve sold this country out and we’re being ruled by the European Union – by people who hate us, who loathe us. I’ll be voting out, and campaigning every weekend. For the first time in my life I’m questioning if this is the party for me,” she said.
No the Europeans do not loathe us or hate us, and neither are we being ruled by the EU, and only someone who's seriously lost the plot can believe this nonsense.
You must be a bear of very little brain.
Ordinary people see an invading horde of muslims swamping the indigenous culture.
They see their childrens education suffer as teachers focus on the non German speakers.
They see their parents having to wait longer for medical attention.
They see their women and children being raped and assualted whist the authorities turn a blind eye.
They know the invaders have an average IQ of 85 meaning they will never be able to hold down a job in a civilisied society.
They know their taxes will rocket up to pay for all this.
And if they speak out they get abused as rayyyyyyycist.
And you think its whipped up hysteria.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/25/labour-says-universal-credit-will-take-495-years-to-roll-out-as-costs-rise-3bn
LOL. I live in one of those communities.
I know lots of people who chose not to work because they were better off on benefits - a lot of those people are now in work. I know everything in life is Thatcher's fault, including Wales's failure to beat a depleted Ireland side on the 6 Nations opener, but living in a mining village I can tell that paying people to be better off not working is not the answer.
Sorry I didn't realise you lived in one of those ex-mining villages that were full of jobs. My bad.
I've been to Glasgow..fuck me, my area is like the Bellagio in comparison.
After reading the actual agreement, all I can say is thank god.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=HF6W&dataset=pusf&table-id=PSA1
Now I wonder where much of that borrowed money flowed to.
Yeah, but, No, but...
And as he is the most popular politician in the country, that will probably be enough for the overwhelming number of people who aren't really interested in politics
You only have to see how many times Scott P has tried to make it seem bad news for Leave to know its a major plus for them