Andy Burnham is backing a proposal to scrap Council Tax and Stamp Duty, replacing them with a Proportional Property Tax (PPT).
📌 Rate: 0.48% of current property value 📌 Cap: £1,200 per year initially 📌 Supporters claim 77% of households would save an average £556 annually
A major reform if it ever gains traction. Winners and losers would depend heavily on property values and location.
Average Band D in England is just over £2k so capping it at £1,200 and 77% paying less suggests in terms of properties mid Band D.
Liverpools band A is around £1,600 so unless people in London are going to get hammered I can’t see how they can hold it at £1,200?
Peter.
My thought exactly.
Can't be much lower sum than people are currently paying is my guess.
Lot of people paying more in London!
King of the North Slayer of the South....
One of the problems of selling this as a policy is that if I have no intention of selling my home, there is no saving in Stamp Duty by its abolition for me. So it has to stack up against current Council Tax for mot.
You always have the option of downsizing and reducing your costs. The costs of moving will be much lower without stamp duty.
I mean 'you' as in people in a similar position often end up with family homes bigger than they need. Which is fine. But it's also fair you pay your fair share as much as someone who moves homes more often for their career or to climb the properly ladder or to downside.
Stamp duty is just a really, really terrible tax.
"always have the option to sell" --> Granny forced to sell by Burnham's hated new tax....
It has the potential to be Burnham's WFA squared....
Not if you allow the people impacted to put the unpaid amount as a charge against the property.
Equally if you are that house rich and cash poor it’s probably time to move
Does this mean complete central government control of local government funding? Can't see that being democratic or why places with higher property values should be subsidizing refuse collection in places with lower values... That's before the economic illiteracy of collecting less than currently, what makes up the shortfall?
Politically and economically you need to be very careful f'ing with taxes that could have large (obvious but stupidly ignored) consequences.
Barring the councils for which the system was originally fixed (Westminster, Wandsworth and City of London), there are no London Band As that aren't comfortably over £1200, I expect that's true for England and Wales.
It's a cap of an increase of 1200. There'll be many more winners than losers. Most of them in the North. Levelling up in practice.
After housing costs there's a large proportion of people in the South with quite low disposable income comparatively... probably in the main Labour voters Is this being paid by the property owner or the resident?
I have very low expectations, though I vote for him over Corbyn, but it's all pointing to him being a massive fuckup.
So having found the Fairer share website, I understand that this is to be paid by the resident not the property owner. So renters in areas with high property values paying more tax on top of their high rents.
With a cap of £1200 increase, so making it highly regressive, the effect will be a tax cut for comfortably off homeowners at the expense of struggling renters.
If it's going to be changed to make it a property value tax (which I'd support) then it should be levelled on the property owners.
But that would simply be passed on to the tenants via higher rents.
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
Andy Burnham is backing a proposal to scrap Council Tax and Stamp Duty, replacing them with a Proportional Property Tax (PPT).
📌 Rate: 0.48% of current property value 📌 Cap: £1,200 per year initially 📌 Supporters claim 77% of households would save an average £556 annually
A major reform if it ever gains traction. Winners and losers would depend heavily on property values and location.
Average Band D in England is just over £2k so capping it at £1,200 and 77% paying less suggests in terms of properties mid Band D.
Liverpools band A is around £1,600 so unless people in London are going to get hammered I can’t see how they can hold it at £1,200?
Peter.
My thought exactly.
Can't be much lower sum than people are currently paying is my guess.
Lot of people paying more in London!
King of the North Slayer of the South....
One of the problems of selling this as a policy is that if I have no intention of selling my home, there is no saving in Stamp Duty by its abolition for me. So it has to stack up against current Council Tax for mot.
You always have the option of downsizing and reducing your costs. The costs of moving will be much lower without stamp duty.
I mean 'you' as in people in a similar position often end up with family homes bigger than they need. Which is fine. But it's also fair you pay your fair share as much as someone who moves homes more often for their career or to climb the properly ladder or to downside.
Stamp duty is just a really, really terrible tax.
"always have the option to sell" --> Granny forced to sell by Burnham's hated new tax....
It has the potential to be Burnham's WFA squared....
Not if you allow the people impacted to put the unpaid amount as a charge against the property.
Equally if you are that house rich and cash poor it’s probably time to move
Does this mean complete central government control of local government funding? Can't see that being democratic or why places with higher property values should be subsidizing refuse collection in places with lower values... That's before the economic illiteracy of collecting less than currently, what makes up the shortfall?
Politically and economically you need to be very careful f'ing with taxes that could have large (obvious but stupidly ignored) consequences.
Barring the councils for which the system was originally fixed (Westminster, Wandsworth and City of London), there are no London Band As that aren't comfortably over £1200, I expect that's true for England and Wales.
It's a cap of an increase of 1200. There'll be many more winners than losers. Most of them in the North. Levelling up in practice.
After housing costs there's a large proportion of people in the South with quite low disposable income comparatively... probably in the main Labour voters Is this being paid by the property owner or the resident?
I have very low expectations, though I vote for him over Corbyn, but it's all pointing to him being a massive fuckup.
So having found the Fairer share website, I understand that this is to be paid by the resident not the property owner. So renters in areas with high property values paying more tax on top of their high rents.
With a cap of £1200 increase, so making it highly regressive, the effect will be a tax cut for comfortably off homeowners at the expense of struggling renters.
If it's going to be changed to make it a property value tax (which I'd support) then it should be levelled on the property owners.
But that would simply be passed on to the tenants via higher rents.
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
Even if landlords try to pass it on via higher rents, I expect that would be a better result for renters than paying a % of the value of a property you don't own.
How are you selling this to someone in their 20s paying 40-50% of their disposable income to rent a 1 bed flat? They'll now have to pay another £100 per month because the huge rent they struggle to pay for the flat they don't own means it's worth £x00K?
My memory of that stage of life is my colleagues up north who'd bought themselves a flat or house and a car moaning about London weighting, while myself and my colleagues in London were renting rooms in a houseshare or maybe stretching to renting a 1 bed with a partner.
Earthquake in Venezuela looks like it will be today’s biggest story, pictures are showing tower blocks flattened, looks like there will be thousands of casualties. 7.5 magnitude.
The Tartan Army have certainly had a great time at the World Cup, by most reports one of the best sets of fans.
And a very difficult group: Brazil and Morocco are fifth and sixth in the FIFA World Rankings. Had Scotland managed a draw (which they'd deserved) against Morocco, they would be comfortably heading through to the knockout stages.
Natasha Clark @NatashaC · 1h Bridget Phillipson tells @AndrewMarr9@lbc she will go get a T-shirt saying “spiteful class warrior” after her spat with Kemi Badenoch
"Here was a chance for Kemi Badenoch to show her human side. To give the world a rare sighting of her empathy gene. But Kemi just can’t go there. She can’t read a room. She has only one mode. All-out attack. Other people’s moments of weakness are just material for her to use against them. Even now, she probably thinks she played a blinder at prime minister’s questions. A chance taken to humiliate Keir when he’s down. She has no idea how graceless she is. How charmless. All the more so because she has played no part in Starmer’s resignation. The Conservatives have just been bystanders. There has been no dramatic intervention by Kemi. No set piece in which she has exposed his weakness and forced the issue. Keir’s departure was purely between him and the Labour party. It was Keir’s MPs who had given up on him. No one else. "
"The mad thing is that it would have taken so little for Kemi to have come out of PMQs looking good. In their first exchanges after a Downing Street resignation, it’s customary for the leader of the opposition to say something complimentary about the outgoing prime minister. It doesn’t even have to be very much. She could have said she admired his steadfast support for Ukraine. Or gone for the human touch. That she had enjoyed the conversations they had held in private. Had loved meeting his wife and kids. Wished him all the very best. But Kemi would rather die than do this. She sees kindness as a sign of weakness. It would have cost her what passes for her self-worth. Had she done this – allowed even a forced croak of kindness to escape her lips – then everything that followed would have been OK. Kemi would have bossed the show. As it was, she crashed and burned. Her language becoming progressively more angry and violent the longer she went on. It was the behaviour of a spoiled child. A playground bully whom her party doesn’t dare to call out."
She seems to be upsetting all the right people
And gaining in popularity which is again upsetting some
And just recall how Starmer behaved towards Boris in exactly the same way
And the idea she played no part in Starmer's downfall is nonsense because without her humble address Starmer would have got away with Mandelson
Politics is Politics
The truth hurts and Kemi is sticking it to them. Bravo.
The Tartan Army have certainly had a great time at the World Cup, by most reports one of the best sets of fans.
And a very difficult group: Brazil and Morocco are fifth and sixth in the FIFA World Rankings. Had Scotland managed a draw (which they'd deserved) against Morocco, they would be comfortably heading through to the knockout stages.
Yes, Morocco are a highly-rated team and Scotland were unlucky there. Brazil are Brazil, we always expect them to turn up for this tournament and it won’t be much of a surprise if they make the final.
I’m sure the Scots fans will still be drinking Miami dry for a few days to come! A few of them might even head back to Boston for what would have been their first knockout match - with their kilts, bagpipes, and traffic cones!
0.48% even means a cut or at least no more for my parents in Coventry and their house is enormous lol.
Would be a cut for all but the very very largest houses for the whole of the wider Midlands and the north.
There’s way more questions than answers for moving to a land value or property value tax. It’s probably the preferred end state, but the way there will be very rocky indeed.
Land value or property value? Introduced all at once, or on property sale? Revaluation needed? Rates set locally or nationally? Stamp duty income deficit problem in the short term? Perhaps even stamp duty refunds or tapers? Landlord or tenant gets the bill? Value uplift for planning permission?
Politically, the key will be if whole communities (constituencies) are affected negatively all at once. So for example will a national house price valuation brought in as a big bang, mean that Labour loses every seat they have in London (and perhaps even central Manchester, Bristol…).
Some of us are old enough to remember 1990, when a messed-up property tax cost the job of the most successful and transformative PM since WWII.
Andy Burnham is backing a proposal to scrap Council Tax and Stamp Duty, replacing them with a Proportional Property Tax (PPT).
📌 Rate: 0.48% of current property value 📌 Cap: £1,200 per year initially 📌 Supporters claim 77% of households would save an average £556 annually
A major reform if it ever gains traction. Winners and losers would depend heavily on property values and location.
Average Band D in England is just over £2k so capping it at £1,200 and 77% paying less suggests in terms of properties mid Band D.
Liverpools band A is around £1,600 so unless people in London are going to get hammered I can’t see how they can hold it at £1,200?
Peter.
My thought exactly.
Can't be much lower sum than people are currently paying is my guess.
Lot of people paying more in London!
King of the North Slayer of the South....
One of the problems of selling this as a policy is that if I have no intention of selling my home, there is no saving in Stamp Duty by its abolition for me. So it has to stack up against current Council Tax for mot.
You always have the option of downsizing and reducing your costs. The costs of moving will be much lower without stamp duty.
I mean 'you' as in people in a similar position often end up with family homes bigger than they need. Which is fine. But it's also fair you pay your fair share as much as someone who moves homes more often for their career or to climb the properly ladder or to downside.
Stamp duty is just a really, really terrible tax.
"always have the option to sell" --> Granny forced to sell by Burnham's hated new tax....
It has the potential to be Burnham's WFA squared....
Not if you allow the people impacted to put the unpaid amount as a charge against the property.
Equally if you are that house rich and cash poor it’s probably time to move
Does this mean complete central government control of local government funding? Can't see that being democratic or why places with higher property values should be subsidizing refuse collection in places with lower values... That's before the economic illiteracy of collecting less than currently, what makes up the shortfall?
Politically and economically you need to be very careful f'ing with taxes that could have large (obvious but stupidly ignored) consequences.
Barring the councils for which the system was originally fixed (Westminster, Wandsworth and City of London), there are no London Band As that aren't comfortably over £1200, I expect that's true for England and Wales.
It's a cap of an increase of 1200. There'll be many more winners than losers. Most of them in the North. Levelling up in practice.
After housing costs there's a large proportion of people in the South with quite low disposable income comparatively... probably in the main Labour voters Is this being paid by the property owner or the resident?
I have very low expectations, though I vote for him over Corbyn, but it's all pointing to him being a massive fuckup.
So having found the Fairer share website, I understand that this is to be paid by the resident not the property owner. So renters in areas with high property values paying more tax on top of their high rents.
With a cap of £1200 increase, so making it highly regressive, the effect will be a tax cut for comfortably off homeowners at the expense of struggling renters.
If it's going to be changed to make it a property value tax (which I'd support) then it should be levelled on the property owners.
But that would simply be passed on to the tenants via higher rents.
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
Even if landlords try to pass it on via higher rents, I expect that would be a better result for renters than paying a % of the value of a property you don't own.
How are you selling this to someone in their 20s paying 40-50% of their disposable income to rent a 1 bed flat? They'll now have to pay another £100 per month because the huge rent they struggle to pay for the flat they don't own means it's worth £x00K?
My memory of that stage of life is my colleagues up north who'd bought themselves a flat or house and a car moaning about London weighting, while myself and my colleagues in London were renting rooms in a houseshare or maybe stretching to renting a 1 bed with a partner.
You are quite mad if you rent a one bedroom flat.
When I was in my early (and mid) 20s, I lived in a house share in East London, because that meant I could save for a deposit on a flat. If I'd rented a one bedroom apartment, I would never have been able to save.
General Donahue’s removal is said to be part of an ongoing push by Hegseth to put his imprint on the military’s leadership, while squeezing out officers with track records of battlefield valor and command experience in favor of less accomplished political loyalists, officers that fully support both himself and President Trump.
Very interesting report from Moscow, that the “Freedom of Russia Legion” have taken out six Gazprom gas distribution sites in the greater Moscow Region.
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
Very interesting report from Moscow, that the “Freedom of Russia Legion” have taken out six Gazprom gas distribution sites in the greater Moscow Region.
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
Ukraine seems to be winning in and around Crimea, and doing serious damage to energy facilities in Russia.
However, the situation in the Dombas does not look so positive.
The best thing for Ukraine would be a sensible peace with Iran, which would make Russian crude that much less valuable, at the same time that there is ever less of it available for export.
The additional council tax on properties over £2.5m announced in the 2025 Budget is taking until April 2028 to be introduced. And that only requires the valuation of properties over £2.5m. There is no chance whatsoever of any other changes to council tax taking effect before the General Election.
0.48% even means a cut or at least no more for my parents in Coventry and their house is enormous lol.
Would be a cut for all but the very very largest houses for the whole of the wider Midlands and the north.
There’s way more questions than answers for moving to a land value or property value tax. It’s probably the preferred end state, but the way there will be very rocky indeed.
Land value or property value? Introduced all at once, or on property sale? Revaluation needed? Rates set locally or nationally? Stamp duty income deficit problem in the short term? Perhaps even stamp duty refunds or tapers? Landlord or tenant gets the bill? Value uplift for planning permission?
Politically, the key will be if whole communities (constituencies) are affected negatively all at once. So for example will a national house price valuation brought in as a big bang, mean that Labour loses every seat they have in London (and perhaps even central Manchester, Bristol…).
Some of us are old enough to remember 1990, when a messed-up property tax cost the job of the most successful and transformative PM since WWII.
Natasha Clark @NatashaC · 1h Bridget Phillipson tells @AndrewMarr9@lbc she will go get a T-shirt saying “spiteful class warrior” after her spat with Kemi Badenoch
"Here was a chance for Kemi Badenoch to show her human side. To give the world a rare sighting of her empathy gene. But Kemi just can’t go there. She can’t read a room. She has only one mode. All-out attack. Other people’s moments of weakness are just material for her to use against them. Even now, she probably thinks she played a blinder at prime minister’s questions. A chance taken to humiliate Keir when he’s down. She has no idea how graceless she is. How charmless. All the more so because she has played no part in Starmer’s resignation. The Conservatives have just been bystanders. There has been no dramatic intervention by Kemi. No set piece in which she has exposed his weakness and forced the issue. Keir’s departure was purely between him and the Labour party. It was Keir’s MPs who had given up on him. No one else. "
"The mad thing is that it would have taken so little for Kemi to have come out of PMQs looking good. In their first exchanges after a Downing Street resignation, it’s customary for the leader of the opposition to say something complimentary about the outgoing prime minister. It doesn’t even have to be very much. She could have said she admired his steadfast support for Ukraine. Or gone for the human touch. That she had enjoyed the conversations they had held in private. Had loved meeting his wife and kids. Wished him all the very best. But Kemi would rather die than do this. She sees kindness as a sign of weakness. It would have cost her what passes for her self-worth. Had she done this – allowed even a forced croak of kindness to escape her lips – then everything that followed would have been OK. Kemi would have bossed the show. As it was, she crashed and burned. Her language becoming progressively more angry and violent the longer she went on. It was the behaviour of a spoiled child. A playground bully whom her party doesn’t dare to call out."
She seems to be upsetting all the right people
And gaining in popularity which is again upsetting some
And just recall how Starmer behaved towards Boris in exactly the same way
And the idea she played no part in Starmer's downfall is nonsense because without her humble address Starmer would have got away with Mandelson
Politics is Politics
The truth hurts and Kemi is sticking it to them. Bravo.
Nevertheless, I don’t see her as PM material and, more to the point, I think many voters will reach the same conclusion come the GE. She will be one of those LOTOs like Kinnock that, however well they do with their own party, people just can’t see making a success of the top job. Indeed that lack of credibility compared even with Farage likely helps many former Conservatives continue shopping away from home.
Very interesting report from Moscow, that the “Freedom of Russia Legion” have taken out six Gazprom gas distribution sites in the greater Moscow Region.
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
Ukraine seems to be winning in and around Crimea, and doing serious damage to energy facilities in Russia.
However, the situation in the Dombas does not look so positive.
The best thing for Ukraine would be a sensible peace with Iran, which would make Russian crude that much less valuable, at the same time that there is ever less of it available for export.
Brent Crude $72 and falling this morning, only a couple of % from where it was in February. There’s not a lot of selling that Putin can do right now anyway, perhaps a bit of crude to China in exchange for the refined product coming back the other way - with the Chinese making a massive profit on both sides of the transaction. Putin’s gonna be Xi’s bitch by the winter
Crimea is looking like a right mess, with supplies almost entirely cut off now and tens of thousands of Russian civilians queueing up to leave. They’re going to have food and water shortages soon, let alone fuel and military supplies. Although one expects there to be significant stockpiles of rations before they’re totally starved out.
The Donbas situation appears quite flexible. Although the front lines have barely moved move than a few fields in either direction for months, Ukraine now has the ability to strike well behind the front, are taking out fuel and military transport along the main roads from Russia to the occupied territories.
Ukraine and Ukranians seem more positive now than at any time since Feb 2022. Some of us have been optimistic for ages, but it does look now it’s about to start getting serious for the invaders.
The war is now also starting to regularly affect ordinary Russians in Moscow and St.Petersburg, with queues for petrol and at banks, airports regularly closed, visible fires and air defences. Tick tock…
A full revaluation of every property for this purpose would take at least 5 years??
Land value makes more sense: it means that you aren't penalized for work you do on your home. (And encourages the efficient allocation of land resource.)
I might have to become a NOMBY - all for a land tax but not on my back yard ;-)
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
Gosport seems to be claiming the record from yesterday’s heatwave at just over 36C - not very far from here, although in my patch the sea breeze didn’t lift us above 32C. An amateur forecaster here claims to have robust readings of 38-39C in the centre of the island yesterday, but I doubt these will stand up as verified. Meanwhile, today both in the UK and Europe, the heat moves eastwards and there are suggestions that somewhere in or just west of London might break yesterday’s record again today.
Very interesting report from Moscow, that the “Freedom of Russia Legion” have taken out six Gazprom gas distribution sites in the greater Moscow Region.
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
Ukraine seems to be winning in and around Crimea, and doing serious damage to energy facilities in Russia.
However, the situation in the Dombas does not look so positive.
The best thing for Ukraine would be a sensible peace with Iran, which would make Russian crude that much less valuable, at the same time that there is ever less of it available for export.
Brent Crude $72 and falling this morning, only a couple of % from where it was in February. There’s not a lot of selling that Putin can do right now anyway, perhaps a bit of crude to China in exchange for the refined product coming back the other way - with the Chinese making a massive profit on both sides of the transaction. Putin’s gonna be Xi’s bitch by the winter
Crimea is looking like a right mess, with supplies almost entirely cut off now and tens of thousands of Russian civilians queueing up to leave. They’re going to have food and water shortages soon, let alone fuel and military supplies. Although one expects there to be significant stockpiles of rations before they’re totally starved out.
The Donbas situation appears quite flexible. Although the front lines have barely moved move than a few fields in either direction for months, Ukraine now has the ability to strike well behind the front, are taking out fuel and military transport along the main roads from Russia to the occupied territories.
Ukraine and Ukranians seem more positive now than at any time since Feb 2022. Some of us have been optimistic for ages, but it does look now it’s about to start getting serious for the invaders.
The war is now also starting to regularly affect ordinary Russians in Moscow and St.Petersburg, with queues for petrol and at banks, airports regularly closed, visible fires and air defences. Tick tock…
I think your expectations of Putin are very unrealistic.
The first five years of all three day special military operations are notoriously the worst.
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
Very interesting report from Moscow, that the “Freedom of Russia Legion” have taken out six Gazprom gas distribution sites in the greater Moscow Region.
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
Ukraine seems to be winning in and around Crimea, and doing serious damage to energy facilities in Russia.
However, the situation in the Dombas does not look so positive.
The best thing for Ukraine would be a sensible peace with Iran, which would make Russian crude that much less valuable, at the same time that there is ever less of it available for export.
Brent Crude $72 and falling this morning, only a couple of % from where it was in February. There’s not a lot of selling that Putin can do right now anyway, perhaps a bit of crude to China in exchange for the refined product coming back the other way - with the Chinese making a massive profit on both sides of the transaction. Putin’s gonna be Xi’s bitch by the winter
Crimea is looking like a right mess, with supplies almost entirely cut off now and tens of thousands of Russian civilians queueing up to leave. They’re going to have food and water shortages soon, let alone fuel and military supplies. Although one expects there to be significant stockpiles of rations before they’re totally starved out.
The Donbas situation appears quite flexible. Although the front lines have barely moved move than a few fields in either direction for months, Ukraine now has the ability to strike well behind the front, are taking out fuel and military transport along the main roads from Russia to the occupied territories.
Ukraine and Ukranians seem more positive now than at any time since Feb 2022. Some of us have been optimistic for ages, but it does look now it’s about to start getting serious for the invaders.
The war is now also starting to regularly affect ordinary Russians in Moscow and St.Petersburg, with queues for petrol and at banks, airports regularly closed, visible fires and air defences. Tick tock…
I think your expectations of Putin are very unrealistic.
The first five years of all three day special military operations are notoriously the worst.
Yup, today is Day 1583 of the three-day SMO.
Not sure Putin had “Moscow on fire, queues for petrol and cash, central bank printing 5trn Rubles, Crimea being starved out” on his bingo card back in Feb 2022.
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
And here he is, the King of Eastern Anatolia
Oh that’s very good. Can you teach him to speak with a bit of a Northern accent?
A full revaluation of every property for this purpose would take at least 5 years??
Land value makes more sense: it means that you aren't penalized for work you do on your home. (And encourages the efficient allocation of land resource.)
I might have to become a NOMBY - all for a land tax but not on my back yard ;-)
The Land Tax is something I do know quite a lot about. Once the quotas became fossilised after about 1730 there was no accounting for changes of the value of property. Clearly the changes of 1798 made further change impossible because of exoneration. Thus you had the perversity of all the industrial changes particularly in Lancashire not being reflected at all in the township Land Tax Quotas. It was always said that when Land Tax was at 4s in the £, i.e. every year after 1769 I think it was typically paid in Yorkshire at 3d or 3d 2f in the £.
I very much disagree with OGH, it was the lack of effective revaluation that did for the Land Tax.
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
And here he is, the King of Eastern Anatolia
So that's why we need a long transition.
Or alternatively, Andy has been shown the books and has realised that the Premiership isn't worth having.
I am devastated. The 0% I earn on cash in my S&S ISA will be taxed down to 0%.
I’m getting a few percentage on my cash. The cash will be deployed. But this pushes you to be fully invested all the time and reinvest when you get income. Not a fan
I don’t like it but I have to go along with it
(narrator: yes, Viewcode got that reference as well. In the original German)
Get your cash in an MMF Taz, you will get close to 4%
What’s an MMF? (I mean, I know one meaning of MMF, it was a lot of fun and got me to 100%, so to speak. It got all of us to 100%. But there was no cash involved.)
@bondegezou Money Market Fund , example Royal London Short Term Money Market Y Acc
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
The man running the restaurant car on the Dogu Express this morning is a Turkish Andy Burnham lookalike. I'll see if I can pluck up courage to get a photo for my daily allowance. Maybe later.
And here he is, the King of Eastern Anatolia
Oh that’s very good. Can you teach him to speak with a bit of a Northern accent?
He insisted to me that he's not Scouse, and I believe him.
'Trump describes Burnham as 'the mayor of a town' and 'extremely liberal'
Donald Trump has given his first public reaction to the prospect of the former Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham becoming prime minister.
Campaigning during the Makerfield by-election, Burnham said the UK needed to avoid what he called the "polarised, poisonous politics" of the US.
Asked his view of the current frontrunner to replace Sir Keir Starmer, Trump described him as "the mayor of a town" and said he had heard Burnham was "extremely liberal".'
I am devastated. The 0% I earn on cash in my S&S ISA will be taxed down to 0%.
I’m getting a few percentage on my cash. The cash will be deployed. But this pushes you to be fully invested all the time and reinvest when you get income. Not a fan
I don’t like it but I have to go along with it
(narrator: yes, Viewcode got that reference as well. In the original German)
Get your cash in an MMF Taz, you will get close to 4%
What’s an MMF? (I mean, I know one meaning of MMF, it was a lot of fun and got me to 100%, so to speak. It got all of us to 100%. But there was no cash involved.)
@bondegezou Money Market Fund , example Royal London Short Term Money Market Y Acc
I hold that in my SIPP as a part of my portfolio Malc.
Andy Burnham is backing a proposal to scrap Council Tax and Stamp Duty, replacing them with a Proportional Property Tax (PPT).
📌 Rate: 0.48% of current property value 📌 Cap: £1,200 per year initially 📌 Supporters claim 77% of households would save an average £556 annually
A major reform if it ever gains traction. Winners and losers would depend heavily on property values and location.
Average Band D in England is just over £2k so capping it at £1,200 and 77% paying less suggests in terms of properties mid Band D.
Liverpools band A is around £1,600 so unless people in London are going to get hammered I can’t see how they can hold it at £1,200?
Peter.
My thought exactly.
Can't be much lower sum than people are currently paying is my guess.
Lot of people paying more in London!
King of the North Slayer of the South....
One of the problems of selling this as a policy is that if I have no intention of selling my home, there is no saving in Stamp Duty by its abolition for me. So it has to stack up against current Council Tax for mot.
You always have the option of downsizing and reducing your costs. The costs of moving will be much lower without stamp duty.
I mean 'you' as in people in a similar position often end up with family homes bigger than they need. Which is fine. But it's also fair you pay your fair share as much as someone who moves homes more often for their career or to climb the properly ladder or to downside.
Stamp duty is just a really, really terrible tax.
"always have the option to sell" --> Granny forced to sell by Burnham's hated new tax....
It has the potential to be Burnham's WFA squared....
Not if you allow the people impacted to put the unpaid amount as a charge against the property.
Equally if you are that house rich and cash poor it’s probably time to move
Does this mean complete central government control of local government funding? Can't see that being democratic or why places with higher property values should be subsidizing refuse collection in places with lower values... That's before the economic illiteracy of collecting less than currently, what makes up the shortfall?
Politically and economically you need to be very careful f'ing with taxes that could have large (obvious but stupidly ignored) consequences.
Barring the councils for which the system was originally fixed (Westminster, Wandsworth and City of London), there are no London Band As that aren't comfortably over £1200, I expect that's true for England and Wales.
It's a cap of an increase of 1200. There'll be many more winners than losers. Most of them in the North. Levelling up in practice.
After housing costs there's a large proportion of people in the South with quite low disposable income comparatively... probably in the main Labour voters Is this being paid by the property owner or the resident?
I have very low expectations, though I vote for him over Corbyn, but it's all pointing to him being a massive fuckup.
So having found the Fairer share website, I understand that this is to be paid by the resident not the property owner. So renters in areas with high property values paying more tax on top of their high rents.
With a cap of £1200 increase, so making it highly regressive, the effect will be a tax cut for comfortably off homeowners at the expense of struggling renters.
If it's going to be changed to make it a property value tax (which I'd support) then it should be levelled on the property owners.
But that would simply be passed on to the tenants via higher rents.
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
Even if landlords try to pass it on via higher rents, I expect that would be a better result for renters than paying a % of the value of a property you don't own.
How are you selling this to someone in their 20s paying 40-50% of their disposable income to rent a 1 bed flat? They'll now have to pay another £100 per month because the huge rent they struggle to pay for the flat they don't own means it's worth £x00K?
My memory of that stage of life is my colleagues up north who'd bought themselves a flat or house and a car moaning about London weighting, while myself and my colleagues in London were renting rooms in a houseshare or maybe stretching to renting a 1 bed with a partner.
You are quite mad if you rent a one bedroom flat.
When I was in my early (and mid) 20s, I lived in a house share in East London, because that meant I could save for a deposit on a flat. If I'd rented a one bedroom apartment, I would never have been able to save.
As did I, my disposable income was still less than my colleagues outside London. Not so many houseshares any more, the owners have converted them to HMOs and rent is a larger % of people's income. An additional land value tax levied on the owners is fine but what fairer share are proposing is regressive.
0.48% even means a cut or at least no more for my parents in Coventry and their house is enormous lol.
Would be a cut for all but the very very largest houses for the whole of the wider Midlands and the north.
There’s way more questions than answers for moving to a land value or property value tax. It’s probably the preferred end state, but the way there will be very rocky indeed.
Land value or property value? Introduced all at once, or on property sale? Revaluation needed? Rates set locally or nationally? Stamp duty income deficit problem in the short term? Perhaps even stamp duty refunds or tapers? Landlord or tenant gets the bill? Value uplift for planning permission?
Politically, the key will be if whole communities (constituencies) are affected negatively all at once. So for example will a national house price valuation brought in as a big bang, mean that Labour loses every seat they have in London (and perhaps even central Manchester, Bristol…).
Some of us are old enough to remember 1990, when a messed-up property tax cost the job of the most successful and transformative PM since WWII.
Nah, by 1990 Attlee had long since lost his job.
It was abolishing property tax for a person tax that cost Thatcher, her massive tax break for the wealthy is why we've got the current regressive system.
I have a fairly new colleague who lives on my route
He made a complaint about me to Royal Mail, as a customer last week
as a bit of banter, or for real?
For real
His delivery point is ten yards from his neighbour’s. There’s a door gate in between. He complained because I used it
He wanted me to reverse seventy yards up his drive, open and then close his heavy, slightly broken gate. Walk the rest of the way across his large garden, deliver walk back, open and close again, and then drive round to his neighbour, ten yards from his door
He claims to be scared that I’ll let his loose running dog escape, and it’ll be mauled by the neighbour’s dogs
What a prick
He’s also managed to miss the fact that free running dog means parcel box at the gate
I had to deliver a couple of bits to him today. I went through the rigmarole of his drive and gate. While lifting the gate (it’s a heavy five bar gate across the drive, not a pathway gate) I got my hand covered in whatever sort of bitumen they’d used to cover the gate
Unfortunately I met him in the garden. I gave him his parcels. He asked how I was. I said fine, and walked away. He followed and wanted to know why I wouldn’t talk to him
He shouted, trembling, at me that I was a very angry and entitled person. I shut the gate quite effectively while staring in his eyes. I then stared quite theatrically at the spaces either side of his gate
“What are you looking at?”
“Where are you going to put your parcel box?”
He got really angry then, I laughed
I'm surprised that there is not a right to refuse to deliver to properties with unrestrained dogs.
Andy Burnham is backing a proposal to scrap Council Tax and Stamp Duty, replacing them with a Proportional Property Tax (PPT).
📌 Rate: 0.48% of current property value 📌 Cap: £1,200 per year initially 📌 Supporters claim 77% of households would save an average £556 annually
A major reform if it ever gains traction. Winners and losers would depend heavily on property values and location.
Average Band D in England is just over £2k so capping it at £1,200 and 77% paying less suggests in terms of properties mid Band D.
Liverpools band A is around £1,600 so unless people in London are going to get hammered I can’t see how they can hold it at £1,200?
Peter.
My thought exactly.
Can't be much lower sum than people are currently paying is my guess.
Lot of people paying more in London!
King of the North Slayer of the South....
One of the problems of selling this as a policy is that if I have no intention of selling my home, there is no saving in Stamp Duty by its abolition for me. So it has to stack up against current Council Tax for mot.
You always have the option of downsizing and reducing your costs. The costs of moving will be much lower without stamp duty.
I mean 'you' as in people in a similar position often end up with family homes bigger than they need. Which is fine. But it's also fair you pay your fair share as much as someone who moves homes more often for their career or to climb the properly ladder or to downside.
Stamp duty is just a really, really terrible tax.
"always have the option to sell" --> Granny forced to sell by Burnham's hated new tax....
It has the potential to be Burnham's WFA squared....
Not if you allow the people impacted to put the unpaid amount as a charge against the property.
Equally if you are that house rich and cash poor it’s probably time to move
Does this mean complete central government control of local government funding? Can't see that being democratic or why places with higher property values should be subsidizing refuse collection in places with lower values... That's before the economic illiteracy of collecting less than currently, what makes up the shortfall?
Politically and economically you need to be very careful f'ing with taxes that could have large (obvious but stupidly ignored) consequences.
Barring the councils for which the system was originally fixed (Westminster, Wandsworth and City of London), there are no London Band As that aren't comfortably over £1200, I expect that's true for England and Wales.
It's a cap of an increase of 1200. There'll be many more winners than losers. Most of them in the North. Levelling up in practice.
After housing costs there's a large proportion of people in the South with quite low disposable income comparatively... probably in the main Labour voters Is this being paid by the property owner or the resident?
I have very low expectations, though I vote for him over Corbyn, but it's all pointing to him being a massive fuckup.
So having found the Fairer share website, I understand that this is to be paid by the resident not the property owner. So renters in areas with high property values paying more tax on top of their high rents.
With a cap of £1200 increase, so making it highly regressive, the effect will be a tax cut for comfortably off homeowners at the expense of struggling renters.
If it's going to be changed to make it a property value tax (which I'd support) then it should be levelled on the property owners.
But that would simply be passed on to the tenants via higher rents.
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
Even if landlords try to pass it on via higher rents, I expect that would be a better result for renters than paying a % of the value of a property you don't own.
How are you selling this to someone in their 20s paying 40-50% of their disposable income to rent a 1 bed flat? They'll now have to pay another £100 per month because the huge rent they struggle to pay for the flat they don't own means it's worth £x00K?
My memory of that stage of life is my colleagues up north who'd bought themselves a flat or house and a car moaning about London weighting, while myself and my colleagues in London were renting rooms in a houseshare or maybe stretching to renting a 1 bed with a partner.
You are quite mad if you rent a one bedroom flat.
When I was in my early (and mid) 20s, I lived in a house share in East London, because that meant I could save for a deposit on a flat. If I'd rented a one bedroom apartment, I would never have been able to save.
As did I, my disposable income was still less than my colleagues outside London. Not so many houseshares any more, the owners have converted them to HMOs and rent is a larger % of people's income. An additional land value tax levied on the owners is fine but what fairer share are proposing is regressive.
A few comments.
Areas with higher house price increase since 1991 have had half a lifetime of significant underpaying of what their Council Tax should actually have been, so sympathy is very difficult to generate.
The beneficiaries on the Proportional Property Tax model are between 60% and 80% of people on the models, as Stamp Duty is slated to be abolished. That would free up the property market, and make it easier for first time buyers in terms of requirement for up front cash.
I think that there are a couple of problems to do with the proposals are they are, as they were created some time ago and some things have shifted.
- Stamp Duty rates have, I think, been increased some way in those years. I'm not totally convinced that full abolition could be achieved from the 0.48% PPT rate.
- The proposals around rental have some very rough edges. Since 0.48% could be about 6% up to around 20% of the market rent for a property, that will make a lot of properties loss making. It would place particular pressure on properties rented at below market rents. At the least that is a transition to be managed; at worst it could gut some sectors of the rental market.
- There will need to be some consideration of renters who currently receive a reduction of exemption for Council Tax.
- And the liability for Council Tax paid on Council and Socially rented houses would need to be considered; this is currently paid by the tenant.
0.48% even means a cut or at least no more for my parents in Coventry and their house is enormous lol.
Would be a cut for all but the very very largest houses for the whole of the wider Midlands and the north.
What do you think about the impact on house values?
I think it would be modest - in theory I guess one rational model would be the present value of an annuity where the premium is equivalent to the change in annual taxation, plus something to do with Stamp Duty.
Comments
I guess the devil here is in the details and there is going to be a lot of details - 1 of which is that income tax seems to be what councils will be getting a share of with this property tax going to central Government.
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices.html
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/press-centre/house-price-index/
https://www.halifax.co.uk/media-centre/house-price-index.html
https://advantage.zpg.co.uk/house-price-index-report?member=true
https://landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi
https://www.nationwidemediacentre.co.uk/
How are you selling this to someone in their 20s paying 40-50% of their disposable income to rent a 1 bed flat? They'll now have to pay another £100 per month because the huge rent they struggle to pay for the flat they don't own means it's worth £x00K?
My memory of that stage of life is my colleagues up north who'd bought themselves a flat or house and a car moaning about London weighting, while myself and my colleagues in London were renting rooms in a houseshare or maybe stretching to renting a 1 bed with a partner.
The Tartan Army have certainly had a great time at the World Cup, by most reports one of the best sets of fans.
Triggernometry discusses the Makerfield by-election result, ft Dan Hodges and Julia H-B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNom9l2SWqU (1hr)
It was filmed before Starmer resigned, but they were all clearly expecting it this week and discussed most of what we’re now discussing.
https://x.com/realmaalouf/status/2069956609241915590
https://x.com/visegrad24/status/2069932527679160813
Today’s is at Poltavskaya oil depot, Krasnodar Krai.
https://x.com/bohuslavskakate/status/2069979156461265273
Would be a cut for all but the very very largest houses for the whole of the wider Midlands and the north.
I’m sure the Scots fans will still be drinking Miami dry for a few days to come! A few of them might even head back to Boston for what would have been their first knockout match - with their kilts, bagpipes, and traffic cones!
Land value or property value?
Introduced all at once, or on property sale?
Revaluation needed?
Rates set locally or nationally?
Stamp duty income deficit problem in the short term?
Perhaps even stamp duty refunds or tapers?
Landlord or tenant gets the bill?
Value uplift for planning permission?
Politically, the key will be if whole communities (constituencies) are affected negatively all at once. So for example will a national house price valuation brought in as a big bang, mean that Labour loses every seat they have in London (and perhaps even central Manchester, Bristol…).
Some of us are old enough to remember 1990, when a messed-up property tax cost the job of the most successful and transformative PM since WWII.
When I was in my early (and mid) 20s, I lived in a house share in East London, because that meant I could save for a deposit on a flat. If I'd rented a one bedroom apartment, I would never have been able to save.
And on the Kemi debate ... elections don't lie so what is the scorecard now?
https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2069876461943566478
These guys appear to be pro-Ukraine Russian terrorists, fighting in the war against their own country from the inside! Hopefully they can evade capture by Russia, or seek asylum in Ukraine.
However, the situation in the Dombas does not look so positive.
The best thing for Ukraine would be a sensible peace with Iran, which would make Russian crude that much less valuable, at the same time that there is ever less of it available for export.
There is no chance whatsoever of any other changes to council tax taking effect before the General Election.
Crimea is looking like a right mess, with supplies almost entirely cut off now and tens of thousands of Russian civilians queueing up to leave. They’re going to have food and water shortages soon, let alone fuel and military supplies. Although one expects there to be significant stockpiles of rations before they’re totally starved out.
The Donbas situation appears quite flexible. Although the front lines have barely moved move than a few fields in either direction for months, Ukraine now has the ability to strike well behind the front, are taking out fuel and military transport along the main roads from Russia to the occupied territories.
Ukraine and Ukranians seem more positive now than at any time since Feb 2022. Some of us have been optimistic for ages, but it does look now it’s about to start getting serious for the invaders.
The war is now also starting to regularly affect ordinary Russians in Moscow and St.Petersburg, with queues for petrol and at banks, airports regularly closed, visible fires and air defences. Tick tock…
The first five years of all three day special military operations are notoriously the worst.
Not sure Putin had “Moscow on fire, queues for petrol and cash, central bank printing 5trn Rubles, Crimea being starved out” on his bingo card back in Feb 2022.
I very much disagree with OGH, it was the lack of effective revaluation that did for the Land Tax.
Or alternatively, Andy has been shown the books and has realised that the Premiership isn't worth having.
Donald Trump has given his first public reaction to the prospect of the former Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham becoming prime minister.
Campaigning during the Makerfield by-election, Burnham said the UK needed to avoid what he called the "polarised, poisonous politics" of the US.
Asked his view of the current frontrunner to replace Sir Keir Starmer, Trump described him as "the mayor of a town" and said he had heard Burnham was "extremely liberal".'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cly81w5g1qwo
NEW THREAD
Not so many houseshares any more, the owners have converted them to HMOs and rent is a larger % of people's income.
An additional land value tax levied on the owners is fine but what fairer share are proposing is regressive.
Areas with higher house price increase since 1991 have had half a lifetime of significant underpaying of what their Council Tax should actually have been, so sympathy is very difficult to generate.
The beneficiaries on the Proportional Property Tax model are between 60% and 80% of people on the models, as Stamp Duty is slated to be abolished. That would free up the property market, and make it easier for first time buyers in terms of requirement for up front cash.
I think that there are a couple of problems to do with the proposals are they are, as they were created some time ago and some things have shifted.
- Stamp Duty rates have, I think, been increased some way in those years. I'm not totally convinced that full abolition could be achieved from the 0.48% PPT rate.
- The proposals around rental have some very rough edges. Since 0.48% could be about 6% up to around 20% of the market rent for a property, that will make a lot of properties loss making. It would place particular pressure on properties rented at below market rents. At the least that is a transition to be managed; at worst it could gut some sectors of the rental market.
- There will need to be some consideration of renters who currently receive a reduction of exemption for Council Tax.
- And the liability for Council Tax paid on Council and Socially rented houses would need to be considered; this is currently paid by the tenant.
I think it would be modest - in theory I guess one rational model would be the present value of an annuity where the premium is equivalent to the change in annual taxation, plus something to do with Stamp Duty.