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Who is the greatest leader of the 21st century so far? – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    They seem mixed. He donated to Democratic causes, but he also joined the Republican party. So maybe a lone confused dude (easily recruited?)

    As with JFK, we may never know

    The more interesting and potentially revealing details are the remarkably lax security and the slow reactions of secruity agents. The Telegraph is saying the SService were warned FOUR MINUTES before the shooting that there was a gunman on a roof. And it's not an obscure faraway roof, it looks like THE place from which to slot Trump, if you are so minded

    The US secret service we see on the TV and in films may not be an accurate depiction of the real secret service. In the clips I saw there were quite a few secret service people struggling to pull out their weapons and generally looking a bit bemused/confused. Maybe the actual president gets the real elite and there is a cascade in quality downwards from there.

    I do hope no bystanders were killed by Secret Service bullets. You might say what does it matter now as nothing can be done for them.

    The innocent people who have been killed shouldn't be forgotten.
    They weren't. An highly credible eye witness who was right by the action and was filming it, said those that got hit, were hit before Trump. The only people who fired afterwards were the secret service snipers who are on film firing in the opposite direction to the crowd towards the shooter.
    The initial reports were of one dead and two seriously injured, among the crowd that was close to Trump, from bullets discharged by the assailant before Trump was hit. AIUI the only gun discharged by police was from the sniper that took out the assailant. Let’s hope that’s all correct.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    Has Trump ever participated in neo-nazi behaviour or sought out their support? No seriously, has he?
    "Stand back, and stand by."

    His message to neo-nazis not so long ago.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,465

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Trump's "fight, fight, fight" and raised fist reaction to his shooting was objectively extraordinary. But I am not sure it is going to do him any favours. If you are non-MAGA - ie, you are in the majority among Americans - what you saw encouraged there was a violent response to violence. Combine that with the Year 2025 stuff and the course of a second Trump Presidency is very clearly set out. It will lead to more division and more danger. Independents may not find that particularly attractive.

    However, a Trump stumble is predicated entirely on Biden departing the stage. His only possible route to victory is to make voters more scared of Trump than they are of him. That means highly divisive language that can only inflame. This will not work so will deliver Trump victory. A new Democratic candidate offers the opportunity of a total reset in rhetoric and focus. Will it happen? Probably not, unfortunately.

    The other thing about what happened yesterday is that it shines a light once again on Europe's total failure to plan for a second Trump term. The UK, Germany and France have been tragically and shamefully complacent. The consequences for our continent could well be catastrophic. Our only hope is that Trump loses. We are entirely dependent on events completely out of our control. What a terrible place to be.

    Perhaps you agree with CNN here, that 5 seconds after nearly dying by a gunshot Trump should have "tamped down the rhetoric"

    "CNN's Jamie Gangel attacks Trump for saying "Fight! Fight! Fight!" after someone tried to murder him.

    Literally, she complains about what he did 5 seconds after he was shot

    "That's not the message that we want to being sending right now. We want to tamp it down""

    lol. Lefties hate Trump so much they are mental. They are more dangerous than Trump. That is the takeaway here

    https://x.com/RealSaavedra/status/1812317905935020049

    Nope, I am merely saying that Trump's response revealed his way of seeing the world. It was the natural response of someone who believes that political violence is OK. A lot of Americans, many of them independent voters, do not share that view and may not want to live in an America where it is the view of the government.

    Penny Mordaunt used much the same rhetoric - and she’s hardly Donald Trump.
    I think you read way too much into a spur of the moment reaction.

    That Trump has been deploying incendiary rhetoric in undeniable, but you can’t critique the reaction of someone who’s literally just dodged a bullet.
    Even if his supporters are celebrating the words.

    I see it in the context of what Trump has said and done in the past. Penny Mordaunt has never instigated an attempt to violently overthrow the UK government.

    Yeah, they even trusted her with a sword.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Tories fear Labour-Lib Dem Parliament pact could leave them ‘irrelevant’

    Concerns that two parties will informally agree to elect a Liberal Democrat deputy speaker, leaving Conservatives with little influence


    Senior Conservatives fear being locked out of democracy if Labour and the Liberal Democrats work together to stitch up key positions that control the workings of Parliament.

    The Tories believe that, as the biggest party on the opposition benches, they should have two deputy speakers to maintain the traditional 50/50 split between Labour and Conservatives in the Speaker’s Office, which has one speaker and three deputies.

    But there are concerns within the Tory party that Labour and the Lib Dems will agree an informal pact to elect a Lib Dem deputy speaker, which would leave the Tories with little influence over parliamentary business.

    The speaker and his deputies have control over choosing which amendments to legislation are debated and put to a vote.

    The Tories fear that, if they only have one deputy speaker – and possibly the most junior of the three – it will affect their ability to provide a robust opposition to Labour and leave them effectively locked out of democracy for the next five years.

    The Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, was a Labour MP before he was elected to the post in 2019 and resigned from the party.

    Convention dictates that the most senior deputy comes from the opposition, the second most senior from the speaker’s former party and the most junior from the opposition.

    But the rules define the opposition as anyone who is not on the government benches, meaning a Lib Dem – or even in theory an independent MP – could be chosen.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/12/tories-fear-labour-lib-dem-parliament-pact-speaker/

    Whom do they envisage be promoted as deputy speaker from the LD bench? Should be a senior MP with experience and the only one is Tim Farron. Can’t see it.

    An independent? Corbyn? Don’t be silly.
    Pete wishart is desperate
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    They seem mixed. He donated to Democratic causes, but he also joined the Republican party. So maybe a lone confused dude (easily recruited?)

    As with JFK, we may never know

    The more interesting and potentially revealing details are the remarkably lax security and the slow reactions of secruity agents. The Telegraph is saying the SService were warned FOUR MINUTES before the shooting that there was a gunman on a roof. And it's not an obscure faraway roof, it looks like THE place from which to slot Trump, if you are so minded

    The US secret service we see on the TV and in films may not be an accurate depiction of the real secret service. In the clips I saw there were quite a few secret service people struggling to pull out their weapons and generally looking a bit bemused/confused. Maybe the actual president gets the real elite and there is a cascade in quality downwards from there.

    I do hope no bystanders were killed by Secret Service bullets. You might say what does it matter now as nothing can be done for them.

    The innocent people who have been killed shouldn't be forgotten.
    They weren't. An highly credible eye witness who was right by the action and was filming it, said those that got hit, were hit before Trump. The only people who fired afterwards were the secret service snipers who are on film firing in the opposite direction to the crowd towards the shooter.
    The initial reports were of one dead and two seriously injured, among the crowd that was close to Trump, from bullets discharged by the assailant before Trump was hit. AIUI the only gun discharged by police was from the sniper that took out the assailant. Let’s hope that’s all correct.
    The witness I mention was right there, the person who died was shot in the head within a few feet of them and they picked them up and carry them away. So they had a "front row" seat to the action. He was a former military man and current medic and not you stereotypical MAGA deplorable.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    Given the febrile state of America, there will now be MAGA types planning how to assassinate Biden In revenge.

    There have already been multiple threats and incidents against Biden since he has been in office. Most aren't as high profile as this latest shooting, but every President going back decades has numerous threats and foiled attacks.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I hear from a GOP congressman that there *was* a conspiracy.

    Biden sent the orders [to assassinate Trump]

    https://x.com/MikeCollinsGA/status/1812257581655531669

    Given the rulings of the Supreme Court he could simply have ordered the Secret Service to do it as an official act.
    Journalist David Aaronovitch is in deep trouble on TwiX because he did a silly tweet that exhorted Biden to do just that, about a week ago: use his immunity to slay Trump via the Secret Service

    He is now claiming that people are threatening HIM

    What a fucking mess
    He was making a point about the ridiculous SC ruling on immunity . Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing . But the left isn’t going to be lectured to given Trumps past comments .
    You don't think that Biden saying, just one week ago:

    "We’re done talking about the debate, it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye."

    ... was directly inflammatory, and encouraging people to shoot Trump dead?

    Because it very obviously inflammatory, and it was literally encouraging people to shoot Trump dead
    To the overly partisan it’s fine if their side do it, not when their opponents do it.

    It’s a bit like the Blackadder quote about spies.

    Captain Darling:
    So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.

    General Melchett:
    Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!

    Captain Darling:
    And fortunately, one of our spies...

    General Melchett:
    Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    If you lie with dogs ............
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    edited July 14
    Just realised the GOP Convention begins Monday. The frenzy around Trump will be intense. The heroic martyr, the incredible survivor, like Thatcher after the Brighton Bomb, but with even weirder hair
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
    Gandalf about Sméagol.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696

    Sandpit said:

    Has there been any indication of when the Tory leadership race will be run?

    It will likely conclude at Conference in October, or perhaps they will have hustings at Conference followed by the voting afterwards.

    There’s much less hurry when in opposition, which should be good for the party.
    I would have thought the new leader would like to be in place by conference but if they are going to have a members' vote (as they surely must) they need to get their skates on.
    George Osborne speculated that if the party does go long, then if Rishi does not want to be responding to the October budget, James Cleverly might be interim leader (do not bet on this, interim leaders do not count for betting purposes). I do not know how close Osborne is to the action or if he is just hopecasting the best timetable for a centrist to emerge.
    There’s always way more speculation about interim leaders than there actually are interim leaders.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    If you lie with dogs ............
    Morning Malc, hope you’re good.

    What do you make of this ? SNP civil war in the offing ?

    https://x.com/agentp22/status/1812029201198801400?s=61
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14
    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited July 14
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I hear from a GOP congressman that there *was* a conspiracy.

    Biden sent the orders [to assassinate Trump]

    https://x.com/MikeCollinsGA/status/1812257581655531669

    Given the rulings of the Supreme Court he could simply have ordered the Secret Service to do it as an official act.
    Journalist David Aaronovitch is in deep trouble on TwiX because he did a silly tweet that exhorted Biden to do just that, about a week ago: use his immunity to slay Trump via the Secret Service

    He is now claiming that people are threatening HIM

    What a fucking mess
    Is the “bullseye” Biden Tweet definitely genuine? I see a few different sources for it now.

    Everyone needs to calm the hell down with the rhetoric.
    Yes. Genuine

    “I have one job, and that’s to beat Donald Trump. I’m absolutely certain I’m the best person to be able to do that. So, we’re done talking about the debate, it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye,” Biden said

    https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/08/congress/defiant-biden-tells-donors-were-done-with-the-debate-00166834
    That is a metaphor though, its about putting him in the spotlight.
    Ah. "Just a metaphor"

    Would you be so forgiving if Trump said this, and a weel later someone nearly killed Biden, by putting him in a bullseye?

    What that be "just a metaphor"?

    Somehow I think not

    Find me someone as forgiving of Biden talking about putting Trump in a bullseye as you are of Trump for instigating a violent insurrection designed to overthrow a democratic vote!

    I've never "forgiven" Trump for that, it's why - despite loathing the Woke Dems - I have, until now, been hoping they can beat Trump, and arguing endlessly for a replacement of the mad Biden ("ranting on about it") to that end. BTW I'm not sure Trump deliberately instigated an insurrection, I am pretty sure he roiled the waters and didn't do enough to stop it

    But after last night? I genuinely dunno. I'd probably vote Trump as the very slightly lesser of two evils
    These contortions to maintain deniability are going to do your back in. Just break out the MAGA cap and go for it. You'll feel better. Everyone will.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    I hear from a GOP congressman that there *was* a conspiracy.

    Biden sent the orders [to assassinate Trump]

    https://x.com/MikeCollinsGA/status/1812257581655531669

    Given the rulings of the Supreme Court he could simply have ordered the Secret Service to do it as an official act.
    Journalist David Aaronovitch is in deep trouble on TwiX because he did a silly tweet that exhorted Biden to do just that, about a week ago: use his immunity to slay Trump via the Secret Service

    He is now claiming that people are threatening HIM

    What a fucking mess
    Is the “bullseye” Biden Tweet definitely genuine? I see a few different sources for it now.

    Everyone needs to calm the hell down with the rhetoric.
    Yes. Genuine

    “I have one job, and that’s to beat Donald Trump. I’m absolutely certain I’m the best person to be able to do that. So, we’re done talking about the debate, it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye,” Biden said

    https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/08/congress/defiant-biden-tells-donors-were-done-with-the-debate-00166834
    That is a metaphor though, its about putting him in the spotlight.
    Ah. "Just a metaphor"

    Would you be so forgiving if Trump said this, and a weel later someone nearly killed Biden, by putting him in a bullseye?

    What that be "just a metaphor"?

    Somehow I think not

    Find me someone as forgiving of Biden talking about putting Trump in a bullseye as you are of Trump for instigating a violent insurrection designed to overthrow a democratic vote!

    I've never "forgiven" Trump for that, it's why - despite loathing the Woke Dems - I have, until now, been hoping they can beat Trump, and arguing endlessly for a replacement of the mad Biden ("ranting on about it") to that end. BTW I'm not sure Trump deliberately instigated an insurrection, I am pretty sure he roiled the waters and didn't do enough to stop it

    But after last night? I genuinely dunno. I'd probably vote Trump as the very slightly lesser of two evils
    These contortions to maintain deniability are going to put your back out. Just break out the MAGA cap and go for it. You'll feel better. Everyone will.
    lol

    You're contorting yourself to deny that you want Trump dead. Go on, admit it, you do. You're sad that the guy missed
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    The Kremlin response is funny. "We don't think it was Biden."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    They seem mixed. He donated to Democratic causes, but he also joined the Republican party. So maybe a lone confused dude (easily recruited?)

    As with JFK, we may never know

    The more interesting and potentially revealing details are the remarkably lax security and the slow reactions of secruity agents. The Telegraph is saying the SService were warned FOUR MINUTES before the shooting that there was a gunman on a roof. And it's not an obscure faraway roof, it looks like THE place from which to slot Trump, if you are so minded

    It’s been pointed out elsewhere that Pennsylvania is an open carry state & security at Trump events in open carry states apparently have to just put up with MAGA types turning up armed & then acting out when told that no, they can’t take their guns in to the venue.

    It’s completely legal in these states for someone to wander around right on the border of the private venue waving an AR-15 around & there’s basically nothing the security detail can do about it - I read that they’ve already tried to arrest someone for this & been knocked back by the courts. If it’s happening all the time thanks to MAGA types not getting the memo about no guns around the presidential candidate, I wonder whether his security have simply become used to people calling in “potential shooters” who turn out to be yet another pro Trump guy wandering around with an AR-15. It might explain why they failed to react to reports in this case.

    Doesn’t excuse their failure to protect Trump of course, but this theory at least explains the observed facts.
    On a roof?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Right-wing Twitter has woken up in the US, and is calling on the head of the Secret Service to resign. She is Kimberly Cheatle, and has something of a history of playing politics with the role, more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting.

    One clip of the BBC interview with the man who said he tried to alert police to the assailant, now has 72m views.
    https://x.com/endwokeness/status/1812273630702952543
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    .

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    Some people here already look like absolute tits, showing once again that PBers are trend-setters ahead of the curve.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    edited July 14
    https://x.com/daaronovitch/status/1812375194935169202?s=61

    Here’s the real victim !

    It’s all a bit poor me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Leon said:

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
    If he has social media - which is likely the case - we might be able to tell a fair amount about his views.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Sandpit said:

    Right-wing Twitter has woken up in the US, and is calling on the head of the Secret Service to resign. She is Kimberly Cheatle, and has something of a history of playing politics with the role, more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting.

    One clip of the BBC interview with the man who said he tried to alert police to the assailant, now has 72m views.
    https://x.com/endwokeness/status/1812273630702952543

    "...more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting. "

    And here we are again, disappearing down the rabbit hole.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    edited July 14

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    Has Trump ever participated in neo-nazi behaviour or sought out their support? No seriously, has he?
    Trump celebrates and minimises violence, and has used language straight out of early Hitler.

    eg Immigrants "poisoning the blood" of America.
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-repeats-poisoning-blood-anti-immigrant-remark-2023-12-16/

    Is he Fascist? Imo, if he follows his declared programme, quite possibly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
    Or build a Korean one for less than half the price of the French one.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Leon said:

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
    If he has social media - which is likely the case - we might be able to tell a fair amount about his views.
    US media have published a name for the assailant - but the FBI, the police leading the investigation on the scene, have yet to do so.

    Apparently there was no ID on the body, and police obviously don’t give out a name until he’s been formally identified.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    edited July 14

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    Has Trump ever participated in neo-nazi behaviour or sought out their support? No seriously, has he?
    "Stand back, and stand by."

    His message to neo-nazis not so long ago.
    https://youtu.be/qIHhB1ZMV_o?si=cK69xUrxoWt0-6W8

    Watch it yourself. The interviewer/moderator demands that Trump tell a series of groups to "stand down", Trump witters about left wing violence is all he is saying, the interviewer then demands that he condemns them, Trump asks who it was they wanted to condemn, after saying he wants peace, and he says "stand back and stand by".

    It is absolutely clear he is trying to comply with what the questioner wants but is clumsy in doing so. He said "i am willing to do anything" in response to condemning violence, he then says he wants peace.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Sandpit said:

    Right-wing Twitter has woken up in the US, and is calling on the head of the Secret Service to resign. She is Kimberly Cheatle, and has something of a history of playing politics with the role, more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting.

    One clip of the BBC interview with the man who said he tried to alert police to the assailant, now has 72m views.
    https://x.com/endwokeness/status/1812273630702952543

    Wow. Wow wow wow

    That does look very bad for the Secret Service, from now on known as the Seekyservs as I'm bored of writing out all the letters but SS doesn't look good

    The only excuse for the "Seekyservs" - that's their new name which I've just invented - is that they themselves - the SEEKYSERVS - couldn't actually see the shooter themselves, even if the guy was literally telling them that hey there's a guy with a rifle on the roof

    It's not much of an excuse for the SEEKYSERVS, and I'd say "heads must rolls" but that's also tasteless, so I'll say "headyrolleroony" instead
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:
    The real victims were the usual suspects on pb.com who had to become experts in ballistic forensics with zero notice.
    As compared to you, who has just said "Fuck, it's a shame they missed, I want Trump shot dead"?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
    A chap I went to Uni with ended up in the California defense industry - a small outfit that does electronics. Think software defined radio systems.

    They came up with a box of tricks - small, man portable, reliable reasonable price. Sold a zillion to the US military.

    The Australians sent a couple of guys to have a look. Like what they saw. Bought some.

    The U.K. sent a whole purchasing team. Who spent ages trying to negotiate a very absurd deal - essentially a U.K. company would completely rebuild their system to an MOD spec that seemed irrational.

    My friend and his boss conferred, then killed the idea - they reckoned that it would end up a disaster.

    The number of actual units that would have come out of this was less than the Australian deal.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Leon said:

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
    Best evidence he is just a nut is killing randomers before trying for trump. Why would you waste the time?
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    edited July 14
    SEEKYSERVS

    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the Secret Service actually adopt that name in the near future
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:
    The real victims were the usual suspects on pb.com who had to become experts in ballistic forensics with zero notice.
    Pellet guns !
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Sandpit said:

    Right-wing Twitter has woken up in the US, and is calling on the head of the Secret Service to resign. She is Kimberly Cheatle, and has something of a history of playing politics with the role, more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting.

    One clip of the BBC interview with the man who said he tried to alert police to the assailant, now has 72m views.
    https://x.com/endwokeness/status/1812273630702952543

    "...more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting. "

    And here we are again, disappearing down the rabbit hole.
    Have your friend Elon calling for her resignation:
    https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-elon-musk-calls-for-head-of-secret-service-to-resign-after-trump-assassination-attempt-at-pa-rally
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    Taz said:

    nico679 said:

    Trump made jokes about the attack on Nanci Pelosis husband and orchestrated a mob to storm Congress where some wanted to hang Mike Pence.

    The GOP trying to blame the left should stfu.

    You have evidence that he participated in anyway of the storming of the Capitol building? He specifically said to protest 'peacefully'.
    It was mostly peaceful.
    Good CNN reference...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:
    The real victims were the usual suspects on pb.com who had to become experts in ballistic forensics with zero notice.
    As opposed to you, pretending to be an expert on planes... ;)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14

    Taz said:

    nico679 said:

    Trump made jokes about the attack on Nanci Pelosis husband and orchestrated a mob to storm Congress where some wanted to hang Mike Pence.

    The GOP trying to blame the left should stfu.

    You have evidence that he participated in anyway of the storming of the Capitol building? He specifically said to protest 'peacefully'.
    It was mostly peaceful.
    Good CNN reference...
    CNN have outdone themselves with this one ...man falls over ...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
    It's also not good to bend the law all out of shape so as to concoct absurd legal cases against politicians in an attempt to drive them from power. But plenty in America, and on here, were just fine with that, because Trump

    And now we see they are actually fine with killing him
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:
    The real victims were the usual suspects on pb.com who had to become experts in ballistic forensics with zero notice.
    Especially after the massive shift they’ve put in to becoming specialists in geriatric mental health.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
    A chap I went to Uni with ended up in the California defense industry - a small outfit that does electronics. Think software defined radio systems.

    They came up with a box of tricks - small, man portable, reliable reasonable price. Sold a zillion to the US military.

    The Australians sent a couple of guys to have a look. Like what they saw. Bought some.

    The U.K. sent a whole purchasing team. Who spent ages trying to negotiate a very absurd deal - essentially a U.K. company would completely rebuild their system to an MOD spec that seemed irrational.

    My friend and his boss conferred, then killed the idea - they reckoned that it would end up a disaster.

    The number of actual units that would have come out of this was less than the Australian deal.
    I hope Labour’s new team at the MOD read PB…
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:
    The real victims were the usual suspects on pb.com who had to become experts in ballistic forensics with zero notice.
    I knew it wasn't a spud gun.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    This is a level of pettiness I can only admire

    https://x.com/fbawaydays/status/1812201430519837146?s=61
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    "This is not a normal election. He [Trump] must be stopped. He [Trump] cannot be President.” - Nancy Pelosi a few days ago"


    https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1812394300405170413

    The Dems wanted Trump stopped, by any which way, including assassination
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Right-wing Twitter has woken up in the US, and is calling on the head of the Secret Service to resign. She is Kimberly Cheatle, and has something of a history of playing politics with the role, more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting.

    One clip of the BBC interview with the man who said he tried to alert police to the assailant, now has 72m views.
    https://x.com/endwokeness/status/1812273630702952543

    "...more interested in ‘diversity’ than security of the VIPs she’s tasked with protecting. "

    And here we are again, disappearing down the rabbit hole.
    Have your friend Elon calling for her resignation:
    https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-elon-musk-calls-for-head-of-secret-service-to-resign-after-trump-assassination-attempt-at-pa-rally
    Musky Baby's also endorsed Trump after the shooting. Which is absolutely zero surprise. Expect bots blaming the Democrats for this to become more common on Twitter...

    (I mentioned this earlier, but Musk's supposed war on bots on Twitter's not worked very well, has it? A bit odd, given how it was one of the reasons he supposedly bought it.)
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
    No good comes from privileging them either. If you want to moan about extra judicial killings there's thousands of Gazan children probably a bit lower down the had it coming scale than Donald. It's inexplicable how disproportionately fussed pb is about rich white.males with an interest in politics. Uncanny.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Leon said:

    "This is not a normal election. He [Trump] must be stopped. He [Trump] cannot be President.” - Nancy Pelosi a few days ago"


    https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1812394300405170413

    The Dems wanted Trump stopped, by any which way, including assassination

    You’ve totally ignored what’s been coming from the other side. You seem intent on viewing perfectly normal campaign comments as a call to wipe out Trump .
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    I must say I'm disappointed with Reform. Since their historic general-election win, the first I've seen of Nigel is today with him doing the quivering bottom lip over Trump. Can't see them holding on to many seats next time if this is the best of their efforts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Another incredible, iconic image. Trump down on the floor, bleeding and gasping

    https://x.com/ACTBrigitte/status/1812271861180641737

    Like him or not, the way he jumped back up and did a fist bump and said "fight fight fight" - that is bloody impressive. Biden wilts if he is asked more than one question in a day
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
    A chap I went to Uni with ended up in the California defense industry - a small outfit that does electronics. Think software defined radio systems.

    They came up with a box of tricks - small, man portable, reliable reasonable price. Sold a zillion to the US military.

    The Australians sent a couple of guys to have a look. Like what they saw. Bought some.

    The U.K. sent a whole purchasing team. Who spent ages trying to negotiate a very absurd deal - essentially a U.K. company would completely rebuild their system to an MOD spec that seemed irrational.

    My friend and his boss conferred, then killed the idea - they reckoned that it would end up a disaster.

    The number of actual units that would have come out of this was less than the Australian deal.
    I now assume that the purpose of any UK government investment or procurement is to enrich lawyers and consultants.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 877

    Leon said:

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
    Best evidence he is just a nut is killing randomers before trying for trump. Why would you waste the time?
    The Rest is History did a series of episodes on the Assassination of JFK and have just done one on the Assassination of Franz Ferdinand. A common theme with the people who do this kind of thing is, despite the political motivations, which are often fairly vague in terms of how their actions are actually going to bring about the change they seek, they seem to be motivated by a grand sense of ego, to be someone or to do something that matters. It's like a shortcut into the history books.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    a
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    EDF are looking for investors to put another £5 billion into Hinkley C nuclear power station. Good luck with that!

    Those EDF Board members who resigned before the morning before the decision to go ahead was taken are looking like the smartest guys in the room. (It now won't start production until at least 2029 BTW.)

    How is this taking so long, over budget erc. I thought the point was this was what EDF knew how to do as they have loads in France?
    "In a letter to staff, seen by the BBC, Stuart Crooks, the managing director of Hinkley Point C, said there were 7,000 substantial design changes required by British regulations that needed to be made to the site, with 35% more steel and 25% more concrete needed than originally planned."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68073279
    So the classic British habit of gold plating the gold plating...
    As always. What the hell is wrong with a straight copy of the French reactor on which it’s based? Recognise the regulations as equivalent (France isn’t Russia or America) and just build a copy of the French one!
    A chap I went to Uni with ended up in the California defense industry - a small outfit that does electronics. Think software defined radio systems.

    They came up with a box of tricks - small, man portable, reliable reasonable price. Sold a zillion to the US military.

    The Australians sent a couple of guys to have a look. Like what they saw. Bought some.

    The U.K. sent a whole purchasing team. Who spent ages trying to negotiate a very absurd deal - essentially a U.K. company would completely rebuild their system to an MOD spec that seemed irrational.

    My friend and his boss conferred, then killed the idea - they reckoned that it would end up a disaster.

    The number of actual units that would have come out of this was less than the Australian deal.
    I hope Labour’s new team at the MOD read PB…
    This kind of stuff has long been known about.

    The most public example, maybe was the Chinook special forces comedy. A expensive super duper version of the Chinook was created by Boeing and sold to special forces around the world. The U.K. tried to save money by a bizarre idea of having a half digital/half analogue cockpit. So pilots wouldn’t need full retraining.

    The result was declared unairworthy. Boeing Vertol (back in the days of Boeing being good) refused to get involved - they regarded the mongrel as a disaster waiting to happen.

    The helicopters sat in a hanger for many years. Until they were downgraded to remove all the fancy stuff for special forces use.

    Meanwhile, the Australians, as it happens had bought the original version. And worn them out with heavy use. IIRC they were retired not long ago, having given many years of good service.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    Has Trump ever participated in neo-nazi behaviour or sought out their support? No seriously, has he?
    Trump celebrates and minimises violence, and has used language straight out of early Hitler.

    eg Immigrants "poisoning the blood" of America.
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-repeats-poisoning-blood-anti-immigrant-remark-2023-12-16/

    Is he Fascist? Imo, if he follows his declared programme, quite possibly.
    Yes, dreadful language, and forgivable if not repeated over and over. He is not a fascist thouhg, he has no ideology, he just wants to win and doesnt really care how:
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-poisoning-blood-remarks-never-knew-hitler-said-rcna130958
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Leon said:

    Another incredible, iconic image. Trump down on the floor, bleeding and gasping

    https://x.com/ACTBrigitte/status/1812271861180641737

    Like him or not, the way he jumped back up and did a fist bump and said "fight fight fight" - that is bloody impressive. Biden wilts if he is asked more than one question in a day

    And you pretend not to be a Trump supporter...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,573
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    They seem mixed. He donated to Democratic causes, but he also joined the Republican party. So maybe a lone confused dude (easily recruited?)

    As with JFK, we may never know

    The more interesting and potentially revealing details are the remarkably lax security and the slow reactions of secruity agents. The Telegraph is saying the SService were warned FOUR MINUTES before the shooting that there was a gunman on a roof. And it's not an obscure faraway roof, it looks like THE place from which to slot Trump, if you are so minded

    Here is the BBC video of a witness telling the BBC he warned the police of a sniper on the roof.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c51yly4085lo

    The trouble is, the police may have assumed it was just another Secret Service agent that the witness had seen. After all, on the only roof for some distance is where you'd expect them to be. (That is my speculation. Maybe the copper did radio his hq who contacted the secret service but it all took too long.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Leon said:

    Another incredible, iconic image. Trump down on the floor, bleeding and gasping

    https://x.com/ACTBrigitte/status/1812271861180641737

    Like him or not, the way he jumped back up and did a fist bump and said "fight fight fight" - that is bloody impressive. Biden wilts if he is asked more than one question in a day

    And you pretend not to be a Trump supporter...
    I don’t pretend anything. Right now I am a very very reluctant Trump supporter - because I think he is now the lesser of two evils. Ffs we’ve got PBers on here openly saying “I’m sad he missed, Trump should be killed” - you want to be on the same side as them? Go ahead
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,573

    Leon said:

    Anyway....I shall be taking a leave of absence from pb.com for a while. Nothing to do with the election result. I have taken on a consultancy role - and part of my requirements are to comply with a strict clampdown on social media postings. (They are cool about the moths, but not my having a take on current affairs.)

    So farewell and adieu. I shall continue to lurk, but keep my thoughts to myself until such time as I can again spout off.

    Toodle-pip!

    Hey mate, sad to see you go!

    Like @RochdalePioneers says, can't you post even more anonymously? There aren't many righties remaining on here, we need voices like yours

    If not, fare thee well. Hope to see you again, some day
    Cheers all, I will be back. And when I do, I trust I will be able to explain my absence with a fanfare.

    Til then, play nice. I will be watching, keeping notes...

    (My Good Lady Wife will also be busy, filming a Rose Tremain story, probably two, with a bipic of Marian Faithful in between. What bit of time we have not taken up by work should probably be spent together, rather than my being on pb.com!

    ...but if the Spirit of Brian Clough should start posting, around the time of the US election maybe, I might have sneaked out to play for a bit!)
    Rose Tremain or SK Tremayne? I think we should be told.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Unpopular said:

    Leon said:

    Tulsi Gabbard - a former Democratic congresswoman - has also questioned the rhetoric around Donald Trump. She said the shooting is a "logical consequence of repeatedly comparing" the former president to Adolf Hitler.

    "After all, if Trump truly was another Hitler, wouldn’t it be their moral duty to assassinate him?" said Gabbard, adding that she was praying for Trump, "and our country".

    I think people would be very wise to hold fire until it is clearer the motivation of the shooter. There are going to be a lot of people who end up looking like absolute tits.

    I doubt that we will ever get a clear motivation, he's a 20 year old confused incel loner, is my guess, who has done both Democrat and Republican things

    Very sad

    The only way we might get illumination - I'm guessing - is if it is revealed someone ELSE recruited him or paid him
    Best evidence he is just a nut is killing randomers before trying for trump. Why would you waste the time?
    The Rest is History did a series of episodes on the Assassination of JFK and have just done one on the Assassination of Franz Ferdinand. A common theme with the people who do this kind of thing is, despite the political motivations, which are often fairly vague in terms of how their actions are actually going to bring about the change they seek, they seem to be motivated by a grand sense of ego, to be someone or to do something that matters. It's like a shortcut into the history books.
    I was disappointed with the JFK conclusion. They completely ignored the testimony of the doctors who treated Kennedy in the emergency room.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    No, but Trump getting shot by a neo-Nazi would be a neat piece of cinematic irony. (I have no idea what the political affiliations of the shooter are.)
    They seem mixed. He donated to Democratic causes, but he also joined the Republican party. So maybe a lone confused dude (easily recruited?)

    As with JFK, we may never know

    The more interesting and potentially revealing details are the remarkably lax security and the slow reactions of secruity agents. The Telegraph is saying the SService were warned FOUR MINUTES before the shooting that there was a gunman on a roof. And it's not an obscure faraway roof, it looks like THE place from which to slot Trump, if you are so minded

    Here is the BBC video of a witness telling the BBC he warned the police of a sniper on the roof.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c51yly4085lo

    The trouble is, the police may have assumed it was just another Secret Service agent that the witness had seen. After all, on the only roof for some distance is where you'd expect them to be. (That is my speculation. Maybe the copper did radio his hq who contacted the secret service but it all took too long.)
    Isn't chaos and confusion pretty standard in these situations?

    Not conspiracy, nor for that matter incompetence.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Cheers to that!

    Massive props to anyone involved in training and employing ex-cons. Having a job is the single biggest factor in whether or not someone ends up back inside.
    A vital lesson for the government to learn is that as soon as they try to scale this up and do it themselves it will be failure. It works on a small scale with individual well motivated organisations. Dont think you can replicate it larger. Encourage the small organisations, dont make them become like you if you wave money at them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Cheers to that!

    Massive props to anyone involved in training and employing ex-cons. Having a job is the single biggest factor in whether or not someone ends up back inside.
    A job, a girl and a kid do it for most offenders. They then feel they have something to lose and conform. There are, of course, exceptions who proceed to abuse the girl and continue with the drink and drugs but they are very much the minority, even although they get a lot of the attention.

    Timpson is one of the most interesting appointments in the new government.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Cheers to that!

    Massive props to anyone involved in training and employing ex-cons. Having a job is the single biggest factor in whether or not someone ends up back inside.
    A job, a girl and a kid do it for most offenders. They then feel they have something to lose and conform. There are, of course, exceptions who proceed to abuse the girl and continue with the drink and drugs but they are very much the minority, even although they get a lot of the attention.

    Timpson is one of the most interesting appointments in the new government.
    There is also the problem of dumping the girl and the kid....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another incredible, iconic image. Trump down on the floor, bleeding and gasping

    https://x.com/ACTBrigitte/status/1812271861180641737

    Like him or not, the way he jumped back up and did a fist bump and said "fight fight fight" - that is bloody impressive. Biden wilts if he is asked more than one question in a day

    And you pretend not to be a Trump supporter...
    I don’t pretend anything. Right now I am a very very reluctant Trump supporter - because I think he is now the lesser of two evils. Ffs we’ve got PBers on here openly saying “I’m sad he missed, Trump should be killed” - you want to be on the same side as them? Go ahead
    Yeah, I don't believe you. You've been on Team Trump for yonks. All the anti-wokery rubbish you spout shows that.

    As for the 'side' I'm on - it's about choosing the best of a bad lot. And Biden - even a geriatric Biden - is much less dangerous to American and the world than Trump.

    You're on the side of the January 6th rioters. And on the side of those who want to take reproductive rights off women. Heck, who want to take rights off everyone who isn't like them.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Buy a man a pint and he will be drunk and disorderly for an hour. Teach him to brew...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,705

    Good afternoon

    Waking up to the news this morning of the assination attempt on Trump was disturbing but in today's climate of hate not surprising

    This mornings media have been all about a more gentle and kinder political discourse, but forgive me, as much as I agree, it is just too simplistic and I doubt anything will change going forward

    The pictures of Trump's bloodied face surrounded by armed security and raising his fist in defiance may well prove to be an election winning one much to the dismay of millions

    On domestic politics Starmer has made an excellent start and looks as if he will enjoy a prolonged honeymoon but he does need to reign in the worst of Rayner and Miliband

    I see a long and rocky road ahead for the conservatives but hope the moderates win through and pay the Reform membership fee for Braverman to join without delay ( if even they will have her)

    I see the Lib Dems are up in arms over solar farms in the south and expect they will be leading the opposition to the imposition in their local areas

    I do not intend contributing much for now as I am content to see how politics evolve over the coming months.

    My health is not the best, ( I was photographed on the Summit of Snowdon last week for the first time with a walking stick) but then I have so much to be thankful for with the medics and I think of our own @OldKingCole who has much more mobility problems then I have

    I get a crick in my neck just looking up at the summit of Snowdon - so you're doing something right!

    Good luck with things BigG - hope to have you back as we approach conference season and the US elections (god help us!).
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663
    edited July 14

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
    No good comes from privileging them either. If you want to moan about extra judicial killings there's thousands of Gazan children probably a bit lower down the had it coming scale than Donald. It's inexplicable how disproportionately fussed pb is about rich white.males with an interest in politics. Uncanny.
    What a sad little weirdo you are. Shouldn't you be returning to your full time job of moderating Reddit?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another incredible, iconic image. Trump down on the floor, bleeding and gasping

    https://x.com/ACTBrigitte/status/1812271861180641737

    Like him or not, the way he jumped back up and did a fist bump and said "fight fight fight" - that is bloody impressive. Biden wilts if he is asked more than one question in a day

    And you pretend not to be a Trump supporter...
    I don’t pretend anything. Right now I am a very very reluctant Trump supporter - because I think he is now the lesser of two evils. Ffs we’ve got PBers on here openly saying “I’m sad he missed, Trump should be killed” - you want to be on the same side as them? Go ahead
    There are evil people who support Trump. There will be evil people who support Biden. This is no way to determine who you ought to vote for.

    I'll often defend you on here but at times of high drama you do seem to lose it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14
    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Congratulations on the PB mods for deleting all of the posts calling for Trump to be killed before anyone has a chance to read them. Anyone except for Leon, that is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Trump's reaction to the attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband:

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,573

    I must say I'm disappointed with Reform. Since their historic general-election win, the first I've seen of Nigel is today with him doing the quivering bottom lip over Trump. Can't see them holding on to many seats next time if this is the best of their efforts.

    Yes. Farage should be all over this Deputy Speaker row, demanding a Reform Speaker because they got more votes than the LibDems. No chance of getting one, of course, but that's not the point.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Cheers to that!

    Massive props to anyone involved in training and employing ex-cons. Having a job is the single biggest factor in whether or not someone ends up back inside.
    A job, a girl and a kid do it for most offenders. They then feel they have something to lose and conform. There are, of course, exceptions who proceed to abuse the girl and continue with the drink and drugs but they are very much the minority, even although they get a lot of the attention.

    Timpson is one of the most interesting appointments in the new government.
    There is also the problem of dumping the girl and the kid....
    True but the majority of those who do that are missing the job element. We need to encourage young offenders to become a part of society, not recidivists and work is a really important element in that.

    Its another reason our chronic overcrowding problems in prisons are so detrimental. Prison should be used to complete the education of those who largely dropped out of education early and the provision of employable skills. This is not being soft, it is pure self interest. The vast majority of such schemes are not currently performing as the Prison governors struggle to cope with overcrowding and the violence that causes.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    I suspect it is very very demographic specific. But we dont talk about that. On a tangent to that, and more relevant to the link DBS disclosures really are quite ruinous for those wanting to move on with their lives having paid their debt and served their sentence. DBS creep has really taken over whole areas of employment.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    ohnotnow said:

    Good afternoon

    Waking up to the news this morning of the assination attempt on Trump was disturbing but in today's climate of hate not surprising

    This mornings media have been all about a more gentle and kinder political discourse, but forgive me, as much as I agree, it is just too simplistic and I doubt anything will change going forward

    The pictures of Trump's bloodied face surrounded by armed security and raising his fist in defiance may well prove to be an election winning one much to the dismay of millions

    On domestic politics Starmer has made an excellent start and looks as if he will enjoy a prolonged honeymoon but he does need to reign in the worst of Rayner and Miliband

    I see a long and rocky road ahead for the conservatives but hope the moderates win through and pay the Reform membership fee for Braverman to join without delay ( if even they will have her)

    I see the Lib Dems are up in arms over solar farms in the south and expect they will be leading the opposition to the imposition in their local areas

    I do not intend contributing much for now as I am content to see how politics evolve over the coming months.

    My health is not the best, ( I was photographed on the Summit of Snowdon last week for the first time with a walking stick) but then I have so much to be thankful for with the medics and I think of our own @OldKingCole who has much more mobility problems then I have

    I get a crick in my neck just looking up at the summit of Snowdon - so you're doing something right!

    Good luck with things BigG - hope to have you back as we approach conference season and the US elections (god help us!).
    I did go up on the train and stayed in the terminus but my daughter did make it to the summit in misty magical conditions, but not for anyone who has balance and mobility problems

    750,000 people walk up Snowdon every year and the Llanberis path is very popular and is 5 miles

    Each July there is a race to the summit and back to Llanberis (10 mies) and the record is an astonishing 62 minutes.

    It takes the train that one way and if you know the upper section of the Llanberis path it is very dodgy and in parts dangerous
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
    No good comes from privileging them either. If you want to moan about extra judicial killings there's thousands of Gazan children probably a bit lower down the had it coming scale than Donald. It's inexplicable how disproportionately fussed pb is about rich white.males with an interest in politics. Uncanny.
    What a sad little weirdo you are. Shouldn't you be returning to your full time job of moderating Reddit?
    Never mind Gazan kids, someone has Shot At A White Man.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    I suspect it is very very demographic specific. But we dont talk about that. On a tangent to that, and more relevant to the link DBS disclosures really are quite ruinous for those wanting to move on with their lives having paid their debt and served their sentence. DBS creep has really taken over whole areas of employment.
    I thought the government lost a court case a few years ago that meant that DBS couldn't be used to pick up minor crimes irrelevant to the job in question?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,307

    Yeah, I don't believe you. You've been on Team Trump for yonks. All the anti-wokery rubbish you spout shows that.

    Is Tony Blair on Team Trump? How about Wes Streeting with his ban on puberty blockers for trans kids?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,573

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    That sounds very high, even including cautions for minor offences like possession for personal use and sitting near Boris on his birthday.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    That sounds very high, even including cautions for minor offences like possession for personal use and sitting near Boris on his birthday.
    If it wasn't from the government website, I would definitely be querying its validity.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    How many of those are relatively minor motoring offences? I got done for speeding once.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663

    Trump's reaction to the attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband:

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796

    No, it isnt. This is a speech a year after it happened. It's grotesque and horrible, but is not what you say it is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Buy a man a pint and he will be drunk and disorderly for an hour. Teach him to brew...
    An important point is that what is needed is many different schemes, doing different things, run by enthusiastic, dedicated people.

    https://boatsnotbars.co.uk/about_us.php
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    Obviously, yes. If he doesn't, who does?
    Why? He's an arse, but is that enough for him to be murdered? That is just madness.
    More than an arse. He's evil and the world is a worse place for his presence. However if he were to die by political violence it could trigger god knows what. Best that his attempt to regain the WH is thwarted some other way.
    Yes, by the best possible way, the ballot box. No good comes from executing politicians in a free society.
    Ballot box is best (and imo will happen). Equal best (unlikely now) is his crimes disqualify him. Death or incapicitation by natural causes would not be the most terrible of developments. Assassination, no. That would be dreadful. I despise him but I can see that.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    TimS said:

    I’d forgotten about Trump’s own record of commentary on political assassination.

    https://x.com/brianklaas/status/1812328254499647796?s=46

    You reap what you sow . Trump has become a conduit for hate and violence.
    So Trump deserves to get shot?
    If you forment hate and violence then you can't moan when it erupts. Trump is threatening a civil war if he doesn’t win . His comments are inciting violence . The GOP trying to beatify him now is vomit inducing .
    There it is. Trump deserves to be shot. That is the real opinion of the Left. That's the comment. Right there
    Yes but the left are righteous (as defined by themselves) not right wing deplorables, so for them to do so is understandable and proper,
    Given that the PB lefties are now admitting that they want Trump dead and it's a shame he survived because he deserves to be killed, then one can only presume that this was, indeed, a lefty conspiracy to kill Trump
    How would you feel about a communist plot to kill Hitler in 1936?
    Nervous it might go wrong

    But Trump is not Hitler. That is the point. He really isn't. He's a mad narcissist but look what he actually did in office? What he mainly did was boast and make stupid remarks and generally embarrass America, it wasn't a Hitlerite dictatorship. And, by the way, no major wars started on his watch

    However the Dems hate him so much they;ve gone entirely mad and they have dialled up the rhetoric to the point where last weak Biden literally encouraged people to kill Trump - "put him in a bullseye"

    And now someone has tried to kill him
    Given the assassin was an affiliated republican who donated to Biden after the January 6th incident and was young and apparently impressionable, it is not inconceivable the "bullseye" comment tipped him over the edge?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573

    Yeah, I don't believe you. You've been on Team Trump for yonks. All the anti-wokery rubbish you spout shows that.

    Is Tony Blair on Team Trump? How about Wes Streeting with his ban on puberty blockers for trans kids?
    Quite. Leon's not the name I would go to if asked to select a wild eyed, raging poster.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited July 14
    Sandpit said:

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    How many of those are relatively minor motoring offences? I got done for speeding once.
    Speeding doesn't count towards having a criminal record if you pay the fine.

    The following offences are not deemed imprisonable and therefore are not criminal convictions, meaning they will not automatically go on your criminal record:

    Speeding
    Failure to provide driver details
    Failure to observe a traffic sign
    Construction and use offences, such as using a mobile phone

    https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2023/01/motoring-conviction-criminal-record/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here’s something all PBers should be able to unite behind.

    Oxford brewery helps cut reoffending rates by training jail-leavers to make ale
    Social movement is a potential tool in solving UK prison crisis by helping ex-convicts learn new skills and readjust
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/14/oxford-brewery-helps-cut-reoffending-rates-by-training-jail-leavers-to-make-ale

    Cheers to that!

    Massive props to anyone involved in training and employing ex-cons. Having a job is the single biggest factor in whether or not someone ends up back inside.
    Yep. There are I think loads of organisations doing things - charitable and commercial.

    To me the key (sorry) planks are about a short term (days then weeks then months) bridge from prison into society with appropriate support and a social network, and the longer term things around employment and accommodation and being in a community. That is around and supplemental to professional supervision.

    Even very good support will be far more cost-effective than prison. We need to look more widely than 'punishment'.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,463
    Nigelb said:

    Sorry to see @MarqueeMark taking an extended break.
    He’s one of the sanest conservative voices on PB.

    Good luck with the new gig.

    Seconded. Shame to see you go @MarqueeMark . All the best for the new role.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 663

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    I suspect it is very very demographic specific. But we dont talk about that. On a tangent to that, and more relevant to the link DBS disclosures really are quite ruinous for those wanting to move on with their lives having paid their debt and served their sentence. DBS creep has really taken over whole areas of employment.
    I thought the government lost a court case a few years ago that meant that DBS couldn't be used to pick up minor crimes irrelevant to the job in question?
    Has it been rolled back a bit then? I had a relative who having left the forces almost lost a job giving out parking penalty notices because twenty three years earlier he was with some friends who stole stuff from a shop and he pleaded guilty.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    I suspect it is very very demographic specific. But we dont talk about that. On a tangent to that, and more relevant to the link DBS disclosures really are quite ruinous for those wanting to move on with their lives having paid their debt and served their sentence. DBS creep has really taken over whole areas of employment.
    I thought the government lost a court case a few years ago that meant that DBS couldn't be used to pick up minor crimes irrelevant to the job in question?
    Has it been rolled back a bit then? I had a relative who having left the forces almost lost a job giving out parking penalty notices because twenty three years earlier he was with some friends who stole stuff from a shop and he pleaded guilty.
    The Supreme Court has ruled in favour of three people who claimed their lives were blighted by past minor criminal convictions. The judges found the way the criminal records are disclosed to employers infringed human rights. The government will have to consider reform of the system, said BBC legal affairs correspondent Clive Coleman.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47054647
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Just watching the tour de drugs, it seems they’re still bothered about COVID. Probably the only thing being tested for.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    edited July 14

    Sandpit said:

    Around 1 in 4 people of working age in the UK have a criminal record

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disclosing-your-criminal-record-guidance-for-those-with-offences/disclosing-your-criminal-record

    This seems an incredibly statistic. Given women commit far less crime, it must be nearer 1 in 3 adult men?

    How many of those are relatively minor motoring offences? I got done for speeding once.
    Speeding doesn't count as having a criminal record if you pay the fine.

    https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2023/01/motoring-conviction-criminal-record/
    TBF that stat from gov.uk does not specift whether it means "current criminal record" or "spent criminal record", or for how it will appear on a standard or enhanced DBS check.

    Motoring offences are mainly criminal in law aiui, but criminal records etc will apply when taken to Court.

    So PCNs do not translate to a criminal record. I'm not sure of the Criminal Record status of a totting-up ban, which *does* require a Court hearing.
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