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The betting chart that tells you last night’s debate was a disaster for Biden – politicalbetting.com

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  • A colleague has been on and off ozempic equivalents (supply issues mainly) and hates it. He had it for diabetes, and it is brutally effective. It stops him eating. He has no appetite, gets really full quickly and cannot drink beer anymore. Result is rapid weight loss to the point where he will need to stop the drug because his BMI will be below 25.

    I can see why people want to use this drug to lose weight. It works. But I also recall the old saying "if you only drink water and eat lettuce you won't live forever, but it will feel like it". For a lot of people eating is fun. Take that away and I suspect a lot of people will wonder if its worth it.
    Im on something similar for Type 2 the last three months.

    Works by inhibiting the enzyme in your kidneys that recycles glucose back into your body so it gets sent to the bladder instead.

    Result is kg a month gone despite craving for sugar since I went on it (and caving to it a little more often than I should).

    Appears it puts you into keto and you burn visceral fat.

    Which is a side effect. I was 17 stone when didgnosed and got down to 14 on hard work, self control and metformin.

    Down to about 13.5 and only a couple of points away from BMI healthy weight status. Although that is a good few kilos.

    It does have a less beneficial but thankfully rare side effect. Galloping cock rot due to sugar in the Urine causing gangrenous infection of the genitals.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    Nigelb said:

    I'd agree with that.
    My father had dementia for many years before his death. I'm not medically qualified to assess it, obviously, but I don't see the same in Biden.

    There's a later clip from the post debate party where he's much more coherent:
    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1806525054295085188

    But his political opponents - as has Leon - will reach for the word as a shorthand anyway, and there's little or nothing the Democrats can do about that.

    (Mike himself was strongly of the opinion that Biden was too old to run for a second term, of course.)
    Er, it’s not me reaching for the word - it’s pundits on Biden friendly media like CNN and NYT actually using it. But whatever
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322
    Nigelb said:

    There are, of course, no polls which show an actual alternative nominee against Trump.

    Hypotheticals - particularly when they're only a couple of percentage points different - don't really shown anything very useful.
    At least Harris has run for office before. No one has any idea how Michelle Obama might perform as an actual candidate.
    Yes, I don't think these polls tell us much - EXCEPT that Trump is still doing pretty well against both hypothetical candidates, and it's not really a name-recognition thing (like polls showing Trump having a lead against Whitmer nationally).

    It's definitely *possible* that *President* Harris will do better against Trump, especially with the fairly large numbers who are unhappy with both current candidates.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,770
    eek said:

    Shall we say it's going to be problematic unless Labour start building a few million
    homes rapidly.
    It does seem an odd choice to make
  • Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Why doesn't the First Lady persuade him to stand down ... after all, he can't need the money?
    It seems that she doesn't have any influence at all which doesn't do her reputation any good either.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810
    Leon said:

    I’ve seen dementia up close and personal. My poor mother has it now, and her husband has it too (I thank god they are sinking together)

    He in particular exhibits all the behaviours we see in Biden. The vacant staring. The incoherent speech. The wandering off. Some of it is identical

    However I’ve no wish to upset the mods and if @TSE and @rcs would prefer us to use different words that’s fine and I will obey. The point is made, anyway
    The 'point' is that you are (1) clueless about dementia and (2) cheap and nasty enough to be forever spreading Trumpist propaganda and gloating whenever anything happens that you think improves his chances of becoming President again.

    And it is indeed made. It's been made for quite some time tbf.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    kamski said:

    If you could wave a magic wand and hey presto Andy Beshear is the Dem candidate against Trump, then I think Trump would lose (NB I don't know anything about Andy Beshear, except he is a very popular Democratic governor in a Republican state). But I don't see how we get there.
    Trump is a discredited and weak candidate who is very beatable. His polling lead has been dependent only upon him running against a even weaker candidate in the form of a visibly senile old man who will do well to last another 4 months in office let alone 4 years. Yes having messed up so far the Democrats are also well capable of messing up their choice of who to replace Biden with, but even they get the choice wrong they will still have a fighting chance and if they get the choice half right the Democrat's candidate will have an excellent chance of winning.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    Arizona (11 ECV): Biden 4.78% better than Clinton and had it swung by National Margin then Trump would have won Arizona
    Georgia (16 ECV) Biden 4.18% better than Clinton and had it swung by the national margin the Trump would have won Georgia
    Michigan (16 ECV) Biden 3.35% better than Clinton

    Biden campaigned more than Clinton in the swing states and got a bigger swing as a result in most of the swing states, winning some of them purely due to that fact.
    So Clinton should have spent more time campaigning in Georgia?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    algarkirk said:

    EC's prediction is still that the LDs (6 seats ahead of Con) will be HMLO, and Davey LOTO. I wouldn't mind at all if this happened, but I don't think it will.
    Reform is a band 3 to 6 - not "6" !

    For Ashfield they have a RefUK win probability down from 85% to 64%.

    The Leeanderthal Man is having a day away for 'family matters', or I'm sure he'd post it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,524

    i am greatly amused by Leon's account of the horrors of 2m seas.

    In January I was evacuated along with the rest of the crew from the Ocean Great White semi-sub, West of Shetlands. 30m seas and 100 knot winds - though by the time we were evacuated it was down to a mere 17m seas and 70 knots. The waves ripped all the equipment off the bottom if the rig and dropped 1000 tons of riser onto the seafloor and right across the main gas export line.

    I think someone quoted it was a force 3. Nice dingy sailing weather. Bit touch and go as to whether it is worth taking a Catamaran out though. Need a bit more wind.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,291
    TOPPING said:

    Time to roll out my stammer anecdote again.

    When I was at RMAS we did a night exercise on Salisbury Plain. There was a guy who had a stammer in the platoon and sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad.

    He was appointed platoon commander for the night phase and was in the middle of giving orders to us all when the Queen walked in, on a visit to the range area (no idea why she was doing it so late but there you are). She asked him something and he couldn't reply. He just stood there, silent, trying to get a word out.

    After about 30 seconds (an eternity) someone else in the platoon said "what he is trying to say is..." and at that the Queen turned and gave him (the interrupting guy) a huge bollocking, telling us all to wait and that the words would come. Which they did shortly afterwards, which she listened to intently before thanking him and heading off.

    I will be taking questions about the socio-political implications of this story during my forthcoming podcast.

    (narrator: Queen Elizabeth II's father was King George VI, who had a stutter)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,676
    We had a well-attended (200 or so) candidate hustings last night (in Wallingford) - everyone studiously polite and two hours of detailed, positive discussion. Certainly vastly better than the TV squabbles, but also a little boring, with no pressure on candidates to address the weak spots in their narratives. A little sharper questioning and candidate interaction it'd have been perfect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,729
    kamski said:

    If you could wave a magic wand and hey presto Andy Beshear is the Dem candidate against Trump, then I think Trump would lose (NB I don't know anything about Andy Beshear, except he is a very popular Democratic governor in a Republican state). But I don't see how we get there.
    I have a tiny amount of money on him at 150/1 to be the VP nominee.
  • A colleague has been on and off ozempic equivalents (supply issues mainly) and hates it. He had it for diabetes, and it is brutally effective. It stops him eating. He has no appetite, gets really full quickly and cannot drink beer anymore. Result is rapid weight loss to the point where he will need to stop the drug because his BMI will be below 25.

    I can see why people want to use this drug to lose weight. It works. But I also recall the old saying "if you only drink water and eat lettuce you won't live forever, but it will feel like it". For a lot of people eating is fun. Take that away and I suspect a lot of people will wonder if its worth it.
    Yeah I agree with you 100%.

    I wouldn't recommend my diet to everyone, but to anyone who's considering it I would say give it a try.

    But you need to find something you enjoy that you can live with.

    To be honest I enjoy meat, eggs, cheese etc more than other stuff anyway, so having that as my day to day food isn't something I regret or makes me think I'm missing out.

    Find something that works for you. :)
  • kamski said:

    So Clinton should have spent more time campaigning in Georgia?
    Of course!

    Less time in California and more time in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Nevada and all the other states she lost but Biden won.

    Which is exactly what Biden did. And he won them.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    I woke, inadvertently, at 2.40 and listened to the second half of Trump v. Biden. Trump was terrible - nothing remotely constructive to say, garbled nonsense, and just constant repetition of the 'open borders' stuff regardless of the question asked.

    Unfortunately, Biden was even worse - totally incoherent and kept losing his way. Trump was there for the taking and could have been ripped apart by anybody reasonably bright, but Biden was clueless.

    So, having defended Biden in the past, my view now is that he has to go. He'll lose, albeit against a terrible Republican candidate. It really doesn't matter what the cause of Biden's decline is - no point in trying to put a label on it. I'm more optimistic than some on here that Harris, of whoever else emerges, could still slaughter Trump, largely on the grounds that he's as mad as a box of frogs. But they need to get a move on.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited June 2024
    Sir Weathercock of Bray:

    Exclusive from @georgegrylls

    Sir Keir Starmer will delay recognition of a Palestinian state under a Labour government because of fears it could undermine Britain's special relationship with the US

    The Labour leader has promised to recognise Palestine as part of a wider push to bring about a ceasefire in Gaza and ultimately revive the peace process.

    He is under pressure from the left of the party to quickly deliver on this promise, which some see as the correction of a historical wrong given Britain’s role in the creation of Israel.

    His allies have argued that Labour should not rush into recognising a Palestinian state, since it would isolate Britain from its major allies and open up a dividing line with the US


    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1806616813645558271

    Tony Benn:

    I have divided politicians into two categories: the Signposts and the Weathercocks.

    The Signpost says: 'This is the way we should go.' And you don't have to follow them but if
    you come back in ten years time the Signpost is still there.

    The Weathercock hasn’t got an opinion until they've looked at the polls, talked to the focus groups, discussed it with the spin doctors.

    And I've no time for Weathercocks, I'm a Signpost man.

    And in fairness, although I disagreed with everything she did, Mrs Thatcher was a Signpost. She said what she meant. Meant what she said. Did what she said she’d do if you voted for her. So everybody who voted for her shared responsibility for what happened. And I think that we do need a few more Signposts and few fewer Weathercocks.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    edited June 2024
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    I’m not sure if I’ve defended Biden on here in the past but certainly for the past year I’ve been telling friends and colleagues that he is not fit to run again.

    More lately I’ve been describing his seeming determination to run again as unethical if not immoral, given the jeopardy into which it places the US

    I see Thomas Friedman - having written an apologia for Biden just a few months ago - has posted an article on the NYT where he describes watching the debate in tears and that Biden must go.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    Cookie said:

    Good story.
    You can see how characters like this were elevated to deity status in times when storytelling was how history was made. You can imagine it getting embellished and growing over the years. The aspect about her just turning up unannounced on Salisbury Plain in the middle of the night just adds to it.
    Also, I love that we still all know who you mean by 'the Queen'. I wonder for how long she will remain THE Queen - and all other queens have to be given titles (e.g. names or of...) to differentiate them from THE queen.
    I feel a bit sorry for "what he is trying to say is..." guy. Presumably his intentions were nothing but helpful, towards both colleague and queen. But that takes nothing away from the story.
    I'd say she'll remain "THE Queen" for 3 generations or more. :smile:
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,524

    We had a well-attended (200 or so) candidate hustings last night (in Wallingford) - everyone studiously polite and two hours of detailed, positive discussion. Certainly vastly better than the TV squabbles, but also a little boring, with no pressure on candidates to address the weak spots in their narratives. A little sharper questioning and candidate interaction it'd have been perfect.

    Were any of the 200+ actual normal voters or were they all Lab/LD/Tory/Green/Reform/SDP activists? My experience of hustings is they are a complete waste of time, that you have to go thru', because the hall is stuffed with activists.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,729

    I woke, inadvertently, at 2.40 and listened to the second half of Trump v. Biden. Trump was terrible - nothing remotely constructive to say, garbled nonsense, and just constant repetition of the 'open borders' stuff regardless of the question asked.

    Unfortunately, Biden was even worse - totally incoherent and kept losing his way. Trump was there for the taking and could have been ripped apart by anybody reasonably bright, but Biden was clueless.

    So, having defended Biden in the past, my view now is that he has to go. He'll lose, albeit against a terrible Republican candidate. It really doesn't matter what the cause of Biden's decline is - no point in trying to put a label on it. I'm more optimistic than some on here that Harris, of whoever else emerges, could still slaughter Trump, largely on the grounds that he's as mad as a box of frogs. But they need to get a move on.

    Biden was reportedly better in the second half of the debate than the first.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810
    Nigelb said:

    There are, of course, no polls which show an actual alternative nominee against Trump.

    Hypotheticals - particularly when they're only a couple of percentage points different - don't really shown anything very useful.
    At least Harris has run for office before. No one has any idea how Michelle Obama might perform as an actual candidate.
    Her not wanting to do it (indeed hating the idea) is the killer, I think. If that's the case it can't happen, since she's a free person.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    Nigelb said:

    Biden was reportedly better in the second half of the debate than the first.
    Yes, I read that - which is why I pointed out that I'd only listened to the second half. Worrying.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,233

    UK in a changing Europe have split the consistuencies into various groupings to watch on election night.

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/general-election-2024-seats-to-watch/

    • Blue Wall frontline: These are Conservative-held seats where the Liberal Democrats are the primary challenger and can claim the seat on a swing of 10% or less.
    • Red Wall defences: These are those former Labour strongholds in the North, Midlands and Wales which the Conservatives infamously flipped (many for the first time) on election night of 2019.
    • Conservative/Leave redoubts: These are seats which have been solidly Conservative for at least the last four elections, and which all voted Leave to a greater extent that the national average in 2016.
    • Conservative/Strong Leave seats: These are Conservative seats which have previously been Labour, and where ‘Leave’ won over 65% of the vote in 2016.
    • Diverse battlegrounds: Local elections, indicated that Labour might see a backlash in those areas of the country with large Asian and Muslim populations, in response to its position on the conflict in Gaza. Meanwhile, there are several Conservative seats where the incumbent’s majority is under 30%, and the Asian population is above 20%.
    • Graduate-heavy seats: Recent elections have shown that education is now a key dividing line among British voters, with university graduates and those without a degree often having very different political preferences. These are seats which, despite having different levels of socioeconomic development and diversity, have high concentrations of graduates.
    • Labour breakthrough: These are Conservative-held seats in England where the incumbent has a majority of less than 30%, and Labour came second in 2019. However, Labour has not won the seat since 2005, or maybe ever.
    • Major change seats: On the back of the 2023 boundary reforms, some constituencies have undergone a huge degree of change, with some being broken up and reallocated between three or four new seats.
    • SNP/Labour battlegrounds: These are SNP-held seats where the incumbent has less than a 40% majority, and which Labour has held before. Labour is second in almost all these seats.
    • Traditional swing seats: These constituencies and their predecessors have traditionally been bellwethers.
    Hmm, it's got Bassetlaw down as a "traditional swing seat". The last time it was Conservative prior to 2019 was 1924 !
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    TOPPING said:

    What a weird bit of France. What is there.
    Only thirty-five leagues to get home from there, Spanish ladies being left behind.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Biden was awful last night and it seems to have (finally) got through to the US media that he isn’t up to the job. The issue now is that whoever they replace him with will have to contend with Trump calling it a “DNC establishment stitch up”. They will also have to deal with the issue of Kamala Harris also being terrible. If it’s Newsom, he won’t have Kamala as his running mate. If they try to crown Kamala - all hell will break loose.

    Anyone in the Democratic party who is younger than 55 should be agitating to kick all elected representatives over 70 out of their safe seats. We had RBG stay in post too long, and the Dems threw away a SCOTUS seat, we had Pelosi and Reid who did their jobs too long, and Schumer who can’t manage his own caucus; as well as Feinstein whose illness was holding up judicial nominees. Not only are these people failing in their jobs, but they’re not letting younger politicians gain skills they need to keep the party going. By hanging onto power they are dooming the US…
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    Nigelb said:

    I have a tiny amount of money on him at 150/1 to be the VP nominee.
    He'd make a good VP choice if KH is the candidate.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    edited June 2024
    I've just seen the following headline. You don't have to read the article:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/27/nigel-farage-is-no-islamaphobe-he-loves-britons-of-all-race/

    My complaint is this: the word 'love' is doing too much work in the world and needs splitting into two or three different words.
    I'm sure I'm not alone in interpreting the word 'love' in one of two or three different senses: romantic love (as I feel for my wife); platonic love (as I feel for family and friends) and wild enthusiasm (as I feel for, for example, the music of the Pixies). Even this is too much work for one word to do, but having grown up in the English language I can quite happily interpret the meaning from the context.

    But I'm quite sure Nigel Farage doesn't 'love' Britons of all races and religions in any of these senses. I certainly don't. It would be exhausting.

    There is a fourth sense - which tends to be used by those without English as a first language and/or by religion, and sometimes by the far left, which means something like 'cheerful acceptance' - as in, love thy neighbour. That's the sense I assume the author of the piece above is using it. But this feels slightly jarring to secular Anglophones.

    My understanding (and I am no expert) is that in the Greek that the Bible was translated from, there are actual several different words for what we call love: one meaning 'cheerful acceptance', one meaning romantic love, one meaning platonic love, one meaning wild enthusiasm. But because English didn't have separate words, the word 'love' has been called upon to do far too much work.
    I am sure the injunction to love thy neighbour would be far more willingly embraced if we had a different verb closer to its intended meaning.

    Any scholars of Greek (or indeed anyone else) are free to shoot any part of this down.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,291

    Today we have Survation and we have Goodwin.

    Given that Goodwin gave a speech on Weds 26th at Unherd urging everyone to vote for Reform, and the previous poll of his, I daresay he might just post a poll with Reform on a ridiculously high figure in the hopes that it boosts their turnout.

    Those Unherd hustings videos, in the order of their release * Peter Hitchens could not bring himself to say "vote Con"
  • Leon said:

    It’s incredible isn’t it?

    I now foresee the following chain of events as quite likely: Labour lose all control of migration and asylum, the boats get worse, this is accompanied by storms of Wokeness which enrage everyone

    Labour do ok things but all these are drowned out by the above. Public anger is incendiary

    Labour collapse in the polls and a new populist right party - either the Tories rebranded, some merger with reform, or something else - surges in opposition. The hard right wins and takes over in 2028

    All avoidable. But this is where we’re headed. Just as the Joe Biden disaster was avoidable but no one did anything
    To give a bit of an alternative prediction for the next couple of years:

    - Labour win 480 ish seats or something else ridiculous. Lib Dems squeak out 2nd party status. Tories 3rd on seats, only just behind.

    - REFUK have a handful of seats on a decent vote share - enough to give Farage the power to say “Make me Tory leader, we’ll do a merger, and we can be the opposition. Otherwise the Tories are finished.” The desire to be the opposition party makes disgruntled Tories fall in line.

    - Meanwhile Labour’s first few months are quite surprising - or unsurprising. They use their massive majority and end up basically junking half the manifesto, bringing in a whole swathe of initially unpopular tax reforms to get more money.

    - This gives LOTO Farage a bounce in the polls as the Tories get to all say “we told you so about Labour’s taxes!” But time passes and it turns out the sky doesn’t fall in. Things like council tax reform are actually possible to sell with a large enough majority.

    - A year later and Farage is bored of this. The reality dawns on him that 2029 is a long time away, and he might not even win then. Meanwhile there’s a ton of scandals with the Reform MPs that have joined the merged party. Some of the remaining moderate Tories think “Sod this” and join Davey’s Lib Dems - who now become the new opposition. Farage resigns, not wanting to be 3rd place, saying that the establishment have stitched him up, but he may be back someday. Someone like Suella takes over.

    - The resurgent Lib Dems battle Labour on issues such as closer integration with the EU, which causes them to win by elections in former Labour strongholds. The strangeness of former Tories supporting this party is mitigated by the fact that they’re not avowedly ‘Pro Rejoin’ - they just want a better appears students are actually finally voting for the Lib Dems again! This spooks Labour, who can see their massive majority being vulnerable in 2029 - the Lib Dems attract enough support from the anti Labour vote across the board to suddenly look very strong.

    - Overall, the government still has a decent amount of benefit of the doubt, being in the first couple of years of a new parliament. Problems lurk on the horizon in the longer term but for the most part people are content enough, and Starmer’s ‘boringness’ is actually a pleasant relief for many.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited June 2024
    Cookie said:


    Any scholars of Greek (or indeed anyone else) are free to shoot any part of this down.

    Yes there are at least 4 ‘loves’ hence C.S. Lewis’ book entitled The Four Loves published in 1960
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

    No offence to you but if this is being published in the Daily Telegraph Newspaper it says more about the paper. The discussion about the different types of love is as old as the average Reform member i.e. biblical
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Lord Ashcroft focus group among past Tory voters in Newquay, Plymouth & NE Somerset - asked if leaders were sportsmen, who would they be:

    Rishi Sunak? “Andy Murray. A bit dull and never fit to play;” “Wayne Rooney. Nice enough person but a hopeless manager;” “Most of the Man United squad, overpaid and underachieving;” “Is there a marbles championship? Maybe he’s good at marbles.”

    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2024/06/its-a-metaphor-for-the-whole-conservative-government-my-focus-groups-in-newquay-plymouth-and-ne-somerset/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    148grss said:

    Biden was awful last night and it seems to have (finally) got through to the US media that he isn’t up to the job. The issue now is that whoever they replace him with will have to contend with Trump calling it a “DNC establishment stitch up”. They will also have to deal with the issue of Kamala Harris also being terrible. If it’s Newsom, he won’t have Kamala as his running mate. If they try to crown Kamala - all hell will break loose.

    Anyone in the Democratic party who is younger than 55 should be agitating to kick all elected representatives over 70 out of their safe seats. We had RBG stay in post too long, and the Dems threw away a SCOTUS seat, we had Pelosi and Reid who did their jobs too long, and Schumer who can’t manage his own caucus; as well as Feinstein whose illness was holding up judicial nominees. Not only are these people failing in their jobs, but they’re not letting younger politicians gain skills they need to keep the party going. By hanging onto power they are dooming the US…

    Boomers just keep on booming.
    The most selfish generation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    edited June 2024
    kinabalu said:

    The 'point' is that you are (1) clueless about dementia and (2) cheap and nasty enough to be forever spreading Trumpist propaganda and gloating whenever anything happens that you think improves his chances of becoming President again.

    And it is indeed made. It's been made for quite some time tbf.
    Yes, I am “clueless” about dementia apart from the fact that my mother has it, as does her husband, and I was there when she was formally diagnosed by the dementia nurse (along with her husband) and we spent an afternoon discussing - with the nurse - what this meant, why she had this diagnosis, what the prognosis was (not great) and so on

    Apart from that I have no experience of it at all and I am obviously unable to see it in others

    You know, sometimes I forgive you your inane commentary because you’re not very sharp. But occasionally I realise you’re not just a bit dim, you are also quite inadequate as a human being
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    148grss said:

    Biden was awful last night and it seems to have (finally) got through to the US media that he isn’t up to the job. The issue now is that whoever they replace him with will have to contend with Trump calling it a “DNC establishment stitch up”. They will also have to deal with the issue of Kamala Harris also being terrible. If it’s Newsom, he won’t have Kamala as his running mate. If they try to crown Kamala - all hell will break loose.

    Anyone in the Democratic party who is younger than 55 should be agitating to kick all elected representatives over 70 out of their safe seats. We had RBG stay in post too long, and the Dems threw away a SCOTUS seat, we had Pelosi and Reid who did their jobs too long, and Schumer who can’t manage his own caucus; as well as Feinstein whose illness was holding up judicial nominees. Not only are these people failing in their jobs, but they’re not letting younger politicians gain skills they need to keep the party going. By hanging onto power they are dooming the US…

    It's always fun when a poster you habitually disagree with (nothing personal, 148grss, you are a decent and erudite poster and I'm pleased you're here) says something you agree with every word of.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    Kamala has a very negative vibe.
    Kind of hectoring and with a vague threat of lunacy.
    That’s why she doesn’t poll well.

    There may well be a misogynist or racist element to the dislike, but I don’t know anybody who wants her or thinks her a viable Prez candidate.
  • Biden does not have dementia.

    He is old.

    Anyone who knows somebody with dementia as I do would not class Biden as having it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,291

    i am greatly amused by Leon's account of the horrors of 2m seas.

    In January I was evacuated along with the rest of the crew from the Ocean Great White semi-sub, West of Shetlands. 30m seas and 100 knot winds - though by the time we were evacuated it was down to a mere 17m seas and 70 knots. The waves ripped all the equipment off the bottom if the rig and dropped 1000 tons of riser onto the seafloor and right across the main gas export line.

    It made the news

    https://www.upstreamonline.com/rigs-and-vessels/investigation-under-way-as-semisub-rig-unintentionally-drops-equipment/2-1-1594117?zephr_sso_ott=R0whr2
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806

    Kamala has a very negative vibe.
    Kind of hectoring and with a vague threat of lunacy.
    That’s why she doesn’t poll well.

    There may well be a misogynist or racist element to the dislike, but I don’t know anybody who wants her or thinks her a viable Prez candidate.

    Then who? You’re in America - you have a better viewpoint

    Who?! They need someone fast as we now all agree
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,233
    I heard some longer clips of Biden on Talk Radio (Not the friendliest of stations to centre-left politicians) and he definitely sounded better than the word salads that have been clipped up online.

    A low bar, granted but I don't think there's enough there to oust him and then he can do a COMEBACK debate in September :D
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,458
    Hillary Clinton would have made a great President. What a pity the US are lumbered with such crap voters. Like a whole country of Clactons and jaywicks
  • He is definitely too old. But he shows no signs of dementia.

    However, Trump does.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,259
    edited June 2024
    glw said:

    There is no will in the Labour Party to reduce immigration the way the people want, even if there was it would cause a whole load of issues for other problems Labour want to tackle like staffing the NHS. So in all likelihood the issue will remain a large problem for Labour and make the government unpopular. All Labour might do is make the system run a bit faster and smoother, but I doubt that there will be a big change in the level of immigration, and there are good reasons to think things will get worse.
    There are far more reasons for it to get better, short of another major Ukranian refugee crisis. Numbers will halve on current projections.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,291
    edited June 2024
    viewcode said:

    Those Unherd hustings videos, in the order of their release * Peter Hitchens could not bring himself to say "vote Con"
    The stream of the whole hustings. At 1hr 31mins it's probably too long for one sitting, but it's good to have the stream as a ref I find

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0a5SPJwGzA
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,770

    Lord Ashcroft focus group among past Tory voters in Newquay, Plymouth & NE Somerset - asked if leaders were sportsmen, who would they be:

    Rishi Sunak? “Andy Murray. A bit dull and never fit to play;” “Wayne Rooney. Nice enough person but a hopeless manager;” “Most of the Man United squad, overpaid and underachieving;” “Is there a marbles championship? Maybe he’s good at marbles.”

    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2024/06/its-a-metaphor-for-the-whole-conservative-government-my-focus-groups-in-newquay-plymouth-and-ne-somerset/

    “Maybe he’s good at marbles”

    Has to be one of the most damning comments made about any politician anywhere, like, ever!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    Of course!

    Less time in California and more time in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Nevada and all the other states she lost but Biden won.

    Which is exactly what Biden did. And he won them.
    My point is that the picture is a lot more mixed than people seem to realise. And at the time Clinton was criticised for not campaigning specifically in Wisconsin - which she didn't visit at all. I don't remember anyone saying she should have campaigned more in Georgia.

    Here's a typical post-election analysis from November 2016
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-out-campaigned-clinton-50-percent-key-battlegrounds-final-100-n683116

    "Over the final 100 days of the election, Trump made a total of 133 visits to Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Michigan and Wisconsin. Over the same time period, Hillary Clinton visited the first five of those states a total of 87 times. She never traveled to Wisconsin during the 102 days between the convention and the election."

    Of those 6 states only in Michigan and North Carolina (marginally) did Biden have a better swing than nationally. In the other 4 his swing was worse than nationally, in some cases much worse.

    Here's more info about which states the candidates in 2016 campaigned the most in and where they had rallies:
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trumps-campaigns-numbers/story?id=43356783

    spoiler: Florida figures prominently for BOTH candidates. California isn't mentioned for either.

    Clinton wasn't a great candidate in 2016, but Biden wasn't actually much better in 2020. Trump lost the election by telling people to inject bleach to cure Covid.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,216

    i am greatly amused by Leon's account of the horrors of 2m seas.

    In January I was evacuated along with the rest of the crew from the Ocean Great White semi-sub, West of Shetlands. 30m seas and 100 knot winds - though by the time we were evacuated it was down to a mere 17m seas and 70 knots. The waves ripped all the equipment off the bottom if the rig and dropped 1000 tons of riser onto the seafloor and right across the main gas export line.

    I’m reminded of a story of a colleague who took a trip on a tanker, round the North Cape to the Kara.

    There was a swimming pool on board. He reported that the waves *in the pool* were getting worrying at one point.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    I’m in Ushant in a stupid shitty van. Is anyone else in Ushant in a stupid shitty van? We could get together and swap tips and barter advice

    Like, why the fuck have they given me a stupid shitty van to drive around? And what is there to do in ushant in a stupid shitty van? From what I can see so far: nothing
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,216
    viewcode said:

    (narrator: Queen Elizabeth II's father was King George VI, who had a stutter)
    That was my first thought as well.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    He is definitely too old. But he shows no signs of dementia.

    However, Trump does.

    Careful, Leon is pretending that he is making a 'spreadsheet'
  • kamski said:

    Careful, Leon is pretending that he is making a 'spreadsheet'
    Absolutely Biden should be replaced but is anyone actually capable of defeating Trump?

    Biden is the only candidate to have ever actually beaten Trump.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    Cookie said:

    I've just seen the following headline. You don't have to read the article:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/27/nigel-farage-is-no-islamaphobe-he-loves-britons-of-all-race/

    My complaint is this: the word 'love' is doing too much work in the world and needs splitting into two or three different words.
    I'm sure I'm not alone in interpreting the word 'love' in one of two or three different senses: romantic love (as I feel for my wife); platonic love (as I feel for family and friends) and wild enthusiasm (as I feel for, for example, the music of the Pixies). Even this is too much work for one word to do, but having grown up in the English language I can quite happily interpret the meaning from the context.

    But I'm quite sure Nigel Farage doesn't 'love' Britons of all races and religions in any of these senses. I certainly don't. It would be exhausting.

    There is a fourth sense - which tends to be used by those without English as a first language and/or by religion, and sometimes by the far left, which means something like 'cheerful acceptance' - as in, love thy neighbour. That's the sense I assume the author of the piece above is using it. But this feels slightly jarring to secular Anglophones.

    My understanding (and I am no expert) is that in the Greek that the Bible was translated from, there are actual several different words for what we call love: one meaning 'cheerful acceptance', one meaning romantic love, one meaning platonic love, one meaning wild enthusiasm. But because English didn't have separate words, the word 'love' has been called upon to do far too much work.
    I am sure the injunction to love thy neighbour would be far more willingly embraced if we had a different verb closer to its intended meaning.

    Any scholars of Greek (or indeed anyone else) are free to shoot any part of this down.

    Beginning with the New Testament the Christian tradition identifies all of these meanings of love - embracing enthusiasm, friendship, familial, erotic - but adds another; love (agape) as self-giving love, fully articulated and described in I Corinthians 13, being a reflection of the divine love for creation.

    This makes sense of the 'love your enemies (and neighbour)' stuff. You don't have to like horrible people, rapists, tyrants whatever, or you neighbour. But you have to desire their good (eg by their turning their hearts to better things) in the divine scheme of things.

    If there is a better way of interpreting this wicked world I don't know what it is.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Why doesn't the First Lady persuade him to stand down ... after all, he can't need the money?
    It seems that she doesn't have any influence at all which doesn't do her reputation any good either.
    The suspicion is that it’s exactly the opposite, with Jill Biden being complicit in enabling those who are actually running the country in Joe’s name.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,264

    I woke, inadvertently, at 2.40 and listened to the second half of Trump v. Biden. Trump was terrible - nothing remotely constructive to say, garbled nonsense, and just constant repetition of the 'open borders' stuff regardless of the question asked.

    Unfortunately, Biden was even worse - totally incoherent and kept losing his way. Trump was there for the taking and could have been ripped apart by anybody reasonably bright, but Biden was clueless.

    So, having defended Biden in the past, my view now is that he has to go. He'll lose, albeit against a terrible Republican candidate. It really doesn't matter what the cause of Biden's decline is - no point in trying to put a label on it. I'm more optimistic than some on here that Harris, of whoever else emerges, could still slaughter Trump, largely on the grounds that he's as mad as a box of frogs. But they need to get a move on.

    I considered a bet on Biden this morning, reasoning that there's still a big barrier to replacement - the Dems probably have to just agree on someone at this point and that will be tricky, particularly if they're sure it's not KH and she doesn't want to step aside. There's also often value in betting on things not happening and if Biden isn't replaced soon then he surely has to come back in a bit for the nomination and pres (5 or more is not sustainable if he is the candidate) so it could, in theory be a decent trading bet.

    Then I watched a bit of the debate and that stayed my hand! Suffice to say that I'm glad I've laid Trump rather than backed Biden so far (other than backing Biden sometime in 2021, but I traded that out when his odds started to come in).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,359
    Leon said:

    Then who? You’re in America - you have a better viewpoint

    Who?! They need someone fast as we now all agree
    The same is true on the other side as well. Trump really really shouldn't be a candidate for anything but there he is.

    Indeed, until fairly recently, Biden's USP was "popular enough to beat Trump, more so than the alternatives'. Events seem to have overtaken that.

    I proffer this only in a spirit of "stupid times call for stupid ideas",

    If only there were someone wildly popular, rich enough to fund a campaign and who was available from the end of the convention to election day.


    https://twitter.com/Mr_John_Oxley/status/1806613326434037846

    She does suffer from being a blank slate politically.
  • Owen Jones seems to have got his excuses in for Corbyn losing early. Bet accordingly.
  • Sandpit said:

    The suspicion is that it’s exactly the opposite, with Jill Biden being complicit in enabling those who are actually running the country in Joe’s name.
    He's actually run the country very well and competently. So despite my misgivings about his age, I do actually rank him as a good President.

    The US is utterly doomed if Trump wins.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,629

    I’m not sure if I’ve defended Biden on here in the past but certainly for the past year I’ve been telling friends and colleagues that he is not fit to run again.

    More lately I’ve been describing his seeming determination to run again as unethical if not immoral, given the jeopardy into which it places the US

    I see Thomas Friedman - having written an apologia for Biden just a few months ago - has posted an article on the NYT where he describes watching the debate in tears and that Biden must go.

    I'm currently hosting two US pharmacy students on a rotation. We discussed the election at one point last week and they were both in despair about the situation. Both are from Texas, and one of them has Trump voters in the family.

    I know we've had a dodgy set-up in the UK for a few years, but at least in 5 9 8 7 we should be back to adults in the room politics, with a new government with a chance to change the countries direction.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,629

    He is definitely too old. But he shows no signs of dementia.

    However, Trump does.

    How are you defining 'no signs of dementia"? Pretty clear signs to most observers.
  • If Gavin Newsom really wants and believes he is fully eqipped to become the next POTUS, he desparately needs to demonstrate the courage to stand up and say so ... NOW. Failing which, he doesn't deserve any further consideration.
    If he leaves it any longer, it will be too late and someone else will need to step up to the plate.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited June 2024
    kamski said:

    My point is that the picture is a lot more mixed than people seem to realise. And at the time Clinton was criticised for not campaigning specifically in Wisconsin - which she didn't visit at all. I don't remember anyone saying she should have campaigned more in Georgia.

    Here's a typical post-election analysis from November 2016
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-out-campaigned-clinton-50-percent-key-battlegrounds-final-100-n683116

    "Over the final 100 days of the election, Trump made a total of 133 visits to Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Michigan and Wisconsin. Over the same time period, Hillary Clinton visited the first five of those states a total of 87 times. She never traveled to Wisconsin during the 102 days between the convention and the election."

    Of those 6 states only in Michigan and North Carolina (marginally) did Biden have a better swing than nationally. In the other 4 his swing was worse than nationally, in some cases much worse.

    Here's more info about which states the candidates in 2016 campaigned the most in and where they had rallies:
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trumps-campaigns-numbers/story?id=43356783

    spoiler: Florida figures prominently for BOTH candidates. California isn't mentioned for either.

    Clinton wasn't a great candidate in 2016, but Biden wasn't actually much better in 2020. Trump lost the election by telling people to inject bleach to cure Covid.
    In July 2016 (100 days to go) my headline post here suggested:

    1. iowa, Nevada, Ohio, and Florida as "normal" swing states; and
    2. Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia as states Donald Trump (in particular) might choose to win instead

    Their actual campaigning seems pretty consistent
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    Leon said:

    I’m in Ushant in a stupid shitty van. Is anyone else in Ushant in a stupid shitty van? We could get together and swap tips and barter advice

    Like, why the fuck have they given me a stupid shitty van to drive around? And what is there to do in ushant in a stupid shitty van? From what I can see so far: nothing

    Ushant was part of medieval Leon.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,737
    edited June 2024

    Absolutely Biden should be replaced but is anyone actually capable of defeating Trump?

    Biden is the only candidate to have ever actually beaten Trump.
    But that's only because he's stood against Clinton, who screwed up by going on holiday and not listening to advice and Biden.

    It's perfectly possibly someone else could take the fight to Trump - I mean you could just have a puppet replying to Trump - that's not true, that's a lie, that's not correct...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    Boomers just keep on booming.
    The most selfish generation.
    Biden isn't one of those young Boomer kids, he's the generation before, the Silent Generation.
  • If Gavin Newsom really wants and believes he is fully eqipped to become the next POTUS, he desparately needs to demonstrate the courage to stand up and say so ... NOW. Failing which, he doesn't deserve any further consideration.
    If he leaves it any longer, it will be too late and someone else will need to step up to the plate.

    Sidestepping Kamala will play very badly. It needs to come from Kamala either standing herself or standing aside - in a way that doesn’t annoy black / women voters.

    It’s a very tricky balance to strike but it’s why I think they will have to go for Kamala, unless Michelle is happy to go for it.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    He is definitely too old. But he shows no signs of dementia.

    However, Trump does.

    I am not a doctor, but I have two grandparents over 85 who do not have dementia and I have also seen other grandparents with dementia. Both Biden and Trump seem like they could reasonably have the illness.

    If the DNC were serious about winning they would pull Biden. (I mean if they were serious about winning they would never have run him in the first place…)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806

    I’m reminded of a story of a colleague who took a trip on a tanker, round the North Cape to the Kara.

    There was a swimming pool on board. He reported that the waves *in the pool* were getting worrying at one point.
    I have a similar pool story

    I was in southern Peru touring the Nazca lines. And staying in an unexpectedly swish hotel in the desert by the sea

    At night there was a pretty serious earthquake - serious enough that it shook the swimming pool so violently the water was thrown out of the pool

    However the hotel was built for earthquakes and all
    the structures were fine. But then I thought: shit, we are by the coast = earthquake = tsunami

    So I urgently called the concierge and I asked him

    “We just had a big earthquake? Is there going to be a tsunami??”

    He paused and said “I don’t know. That’s a good question. I will check”. So then he went away and checked - online? - and he called me back and he said: “No”
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    edited June 2024

    A colleague has been on and off ozempic equivalents (supply issues mainly) and hates it. He had it for diabetes, and it is brutally effective. It stops him eating. He has no appetite, gets really full quickly and cannot drink beer anymore. Result is rapid weight loss to the point where he will need to stop the drug because his BMI will be below 25.

    I can see why people want to use this drug to lose weight. It works. But I also recall the old saying "if you only drink water and eat lettuce you won't live forever, but it will feel like it". For a lot of people eating is fun. Take that away and I suspect a lot of people will wonder if its worth it.
    Except that is something you can adjust in your diet, too.

    I'd recommend the Carbs and Cals series of recipe / cook books, and apps.

    First came out of the need to help people with diabetes get to grips with carb counting (with iirc calorie counting as an add on), as most people are more visual than PBers doing arbitrage calculations in our heads, and have a range of useful recipes with details of ... carbs and cals. Another medical-adjacent product which I think came from a clinician who has created a second career.

    Plus an ingredient reference photographed at different sizes, which is fun and establishes a visual link, and helps avoid "larger portions by stealth". Covers a lot of purchased foods, too.

    You won't get on with everything, but it's a way to explore options. I have about 4 of them - the first one, salads, soups, world foods etc.

    I'll use my photo today for the page from the general book about heggs *.

    https://carbsandcals.com/

    * I know that 60g is a fairly normal hegg because my school friend who competed with his dad in the Great Hegg Race was mortified that he could only find one 0.2g above the specified minimum weight, and it was about that weight.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Absolutely Biden should be replaced but is anyone actually capable of defeating Trump?

    Biden is the only candidate to have ever actually beaten Trump.
    Trump is really unpopular - the DNC just seems to enjoy putting up more unpopular politicians against him. Anyone not named Hillary Clinton would have beaten Trump in 2016. Anyone not named Joe Biden could probably beat him easily now.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108

    “Maybe he’s good at marbles”

    Has to be one of the most damning comments made about any politician anywhere, like, ever!
    I remember a bully at primary school who was good at marbles. He used a 2lb ball bearing...
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    i am greatly amused by Leon's account of the horrors of 2m seas.

    In January I was evacuated along with the rest of the crew from the Ocean Great White semi-sub, West of Shetlands. 30m seas and 100 knot winds - though by the time we were evacuated it was down to a mere 17m seas and 70 knots. The waves ripped all the equipment off the bottom if the rig and dropped 1000 tons of riser onto the seafloor and right across the main gas export line.

    Is it true that the North Sea is one of the roughest/most volatile? I'm sure I've read that somewhere, but I would be interested to hear first hand!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,029
    edited June 2024

    How are you defining 'no signs of dementia"? Pretty clear signs to most observers.
    I have considerable experience of dementia in our family and our friends and it is clear that, sadly, Biden is suffering from a form of dementia and as I said earlier this morning it is time for his wife and family to act in his and the US best interests and gently persuade him to accept he needs to move on and spend time with his family away from the spotlight
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,291
    Um, if you are going to draft in a Biden replacement, wouldn't Jill Biden be an adequate replacement? Narratively it'd work, although the Dem upper echelon would hate it (so another plus there then... :) )

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526

    Kamala has a very negative vibe.
    Kind of hectoring and with a vague threat of lunacy.
    That’s why she doesn’t poll well.

    There may well be a misogynist or racist element to the dislike, but I don’t know anybody who wants her or thinks her a viable Prez candidate.

    It was hoped she would be the female Obama but she turned out to be the black Hilary.
  • 148grss said:

    Trump is really unpopular - the DNC just seems to enjoy putting up more unpopular politicians against him. Anyone not named Hillary Clinton would have beaten Trump in 2016. Anyone not named Joe Biden could probably beat him easily now.
    But who? That is the point, who is this person?

    I am not interested in some mythical person, I want an actual person.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    Sidestepping Kamala will play very badly. It needs to come from Kamala either standing herself or standing aside - in a way that doesn’t annoy black / women voters.

    It’s a very tricky balance to strike but it’s why I think they will have to go for Kamala, unless Michelle is happy to go for it.
    If we're doing fantasy Democratic candidates then I don't know why everyone is overlooking Oprah.
  • But yes, in the general sense Biden has to stand down.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810
    kamski said:

    My point is that the picture is a lot more mixed than people seem to realise. And at the time Clinton was criticised for not campaigning specifically in Wisconsin - which she didn't visit at all. I don't remember anyone saying she should have campaigned more in Georgia.

    Here's a typical post-election analysis from November 2016
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-out-campaigned-clinton-50-percent-key-battlegrounds-final-100-n683116

    "Over the final 100 days of the election, Trump made a total of 133 visits to Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Michigan and Wisconsin. Over the same time period, Hillary Clinton visited the first five of those states a total of 87 times. She never traveled to Wisconsin during the 102 days between the convention and the election."

    Of those 6 states only in Michigan and North Carolina (marginally) did Biden have a better swing than nationally. In the other 4 his swing was worse than nationally, in some cases much worse.

    Here's more info about which states the candidates in 2016 campaigned the most in and where they had rallies:
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trumps-campaigns-numbers/story?id=43356783

    spoiler: Florida figures prominently for BOTH candidates. California isn't mentioned for either.

    Clinton wasn't a great candidate in 2016, but Biden wasn't actually much better in 2020. Trump lost the election by telling people to inject bleach to cure Covid.
    Yes, all he had to do to get re-elected was not behave like a total dick during the pandemic. But he couldn't manage that. He had to be true to himself. I expect the same this time and the same result - unless we get the nightmare scenario of Biden insisting on running and then proving incapable of it. This must be avoided. I don't know exactly how but it really has to be.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    viewcode said:

    It made the news

    https://www.upstreamonline.com/rigs-and-vessels/investigation-under-way-as-semisub-rig-unintentionally-drops-equipment/2-1-1594117?zephr_sso_ott=R0whr2
    They do a wonderful line in understatement :)
  • Owen Jones seems to have got his excuses in for Corbyn losing early. Bet accordingly.

    He thinks that Corbyn postal voters were too stupid to put a cross next to Corbyn, and have put it next to Labour instead?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    Ghedebrav said:

    Is it true that the North Sea is one of the roughest/most volatile? I'm sure I've read that somewhere, but I would be interested to hear first hand!
    I believe the sea between Shetland and Foula is one of the roughest in the world (I flew over it to get to foula). They told me they have, on average, one calm day a year. Maybe they were pulling my leg? But when I went to the tiny harbour I saw a device for hauling the ferry boat entirely out of the sea in case of storms - a huge crane that held the
    boat aloft. IN THE HARBOUR

    If you have to do that then you definitely have rough seas
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    edited June 2024

    Sidestepping Kamala will play very badly. It needs to come from Kamala either standing herself or standing aside - in a way that doesn’t annoy black / women voters.

    It’s a very tricky balance to strike but it’s why I think they will have to go for Kamala, unless Michelle is happy to go for it.
    Kamala didn’t have much support among African American voters in the primary, and women voters care more about Dobbs and other issues than Kamala. The best ticket would likely be Newsom and Whitmer; two Dem governors, Newsom can bring in the cash, Whitmer is a great campaigner, and they’d kick Trump’s arse. They’d still be centrists - but I think they’d be more attack focussed on the GOP than Biden has been.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    Still on elections, is there really this bias against independant candidates?

    As an Independent Candidate I was unable to get access to the voters roll, and in particular to the Postal (Absent) Voters Roll until the day the election was called, and the day I had completed formal nomination forms and they were accepted.

    Or so you would think. In reality, it took Perth and Kinross Council a further full week before I was supplied with this information… and it took a bit of a battle before they sent it to me.

    This matters, because, unlike the parties (who have access to the previous GE/HE voters roll register – and they don’t change too much) – it gives the Independent Candidate almost no time to canvass, leaflet, or write to, Postal Voters prior to the postal votes being issued and then returned. (Postal vote forms were sent out on 19th, and counting of them starts, on 27th)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,307
    Let’s put it another way - if they go with Harris it’s a huge gamble but they’ve got a chance to win.

    If they go with Biden, they lose now I’m afraid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,053
    To be fair to Biden it could have been worse. A CNN poll had him losing 33% to 67% for Trump, which is actually better than the CNN poll in 2012 after the first debate for Obama, which CNN found Romney won with 67% to just 25% for Obama

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/who-won-debate-polls-trump-biden-b2570405.html
    https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/polls-mitt-romney-wins-first-debate-against-barack-obama/

    Anyway onto the next big event which is Trump's sentencing for his Stormy Daniels hush money convictions in a fortnight. It is unlikely he will be jailed but not impossible given his complete absence of remorse and if he were to be jailed we would have one candidate clearly with dementia and the other candidate in a state jail before the conventions even begin!
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    But who? That is the point, who is this person?

    I am not interested in some mythical person, I want an actual person.
    Newsom or Whitmer would probably be the establishment Dem choice, and probably the easiest to run. I’d personally prefer Whitmer as POTUS and Newsom as VP, but I think Newsom is the favourite for POTUS.
  • Let’s put it another way - if they go with Harris it’s a huge gamble but they’ve got a chance to win.

    If they go with Biden, they lose now I’m afraid.

    It is legitimately staggering to me that after actually having Trump as President, Trump still has any support at all.

    I cannot conclude in any way that Biden can be worse than Trump. But somehow the Americans have.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,053
    edited June 2024
    148grss said:

    Trump is really unpopular - the DNC just seems to enjoy putting up more unpopular politicians against him. Anyone not named Hillary Clinton would have beaten Trump in 2016. Anyone not named Joe Biden could probably beat him easily now.
    They wouldn't, Hafrris for instance polls worse than Biden against Trump.

    Of course if it wasn't for Hillary Clinton's ego, Biden would have been Democratic candidate in 2016 as Obama's VP, beaten Trump most likely and been re elected in 2020 probably as well.

    This would be his final year in office and the Democrats would likely be nominating a younger candidate at their convention in August. The GOP candidate would almost certainly not be Trump, maybe even a dynamic centrist like one Nikki Haley!
  • 148grss said:

    Newsom or Whitmer would probably be the establishment Dem choice, and probably the easiest to run. I’d personally prefer Whitmer as POTUS and Newsom as VP, but I think Newsom is the favourite for POTUS.
    Thanks. And how do these people replace Biden or it's too late?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    148grss said:

    Kamala didn’t have much support among African American voters in the primary, and women voters care more about Dobbs and other issues than Kamala. The best ticket would likely be Newsom and Whitmer; two Dem governors, Newsom can bring in the cash, Whitmer is a great campaigner, and they’d kick Trump’s arse. They’d still be centrists - but I think they’d be more attack focussed on the GOP than Biden has been.
    Newsom is unelectable because of this:

    California will welcome the new year by becoming the first state to offer health insurance for all undocumented immigrants.

    Starting Jan. 1, all undocumented immigrants, regardless of age, will qualify for Medi-Cal, California's version of the federal Medicaid program for people with low incomes.


    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-1st-state-offer-health-insurance-undocumented-immigrants/story?id=105986377#:~:text=California will welcome the new,for people with low incomes.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    Heathener said:

    Yes there are at least 4 ‘loves’ hence C.S. Lewis’ book entitled The Four Loves published in 1960
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

    No offence to you but if this is being published in the Daily Telegraph Newspaper it says more about the paper. The discussion about the different types of love is as old as the average Reform member i.e. biblical
    No, the discussion of different types of love isn't being discussed in the Telegraph. My post was my reaction to a headline in the Telegraph which used the word 'love' in a way which I found clunky. I didn't actually read the article which in any case I think was about something else entirely!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,029
    edited June 2024
    Leon said:

    I believe the sea between Shetland and Foula is one of the roughest in the world (I flew over it to get to foula). They told me they have, on average, one calm day a year. Maybe they were pulling my leg? But when I went to the tiny harbour I saw a device for hauling the ferry boat entirely out of the sea in case of storms - a huge crane that held the
    boat aloft. IN THE HARBOUR

    If you have to do that then you definitely have rough seas
    My father in law recounted that on many occasions on returning to his home port of Lossiemouth from fishing off the west coast of Scotland he would go astern, even with full power, at times in the Pentland Firth where the Atlantic meets the North Sea

    However, the roughest seas are on the Southern Ocean and in particular Drake passage
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm, it's got Bassetlaw down as a "traditional swing seat". The last time it was Conservative prior to 2019 was 1924 !
    They've also characterised Bolsover and Mansfield in that category. And ignored Ashfield entirely (B*st*rds !).

    I'm not very inclined to listen to this one.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279
    Pulpstar said:

    I heard some longer clips of Biden on Talk Radio (Not the friendliest of stations to centre-left politicians) and he definitely sounded better than the word salads that have been clipped up online.

    A low bar, granted but I don't think there's enough there to oust him and then he can do a COMEBACK debate in September :D

    I forgot about the debate and woke up to the PB Header and my heart sank.

    Playing catch-up I read the PB comments and then watched the CNN highlights and Biden wasn't as bad as I'd feared, but this may be because I've thought for a long time that he isn't fit to be president due to dementia/age. If you were in denial of this then I suppose his performance in the debate would have been more of a shock.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,126
    Can't believe PB are missing the most important story of the day...

    Apparently the racist RefUK volunteer featured on Channel 4 last night is an actor
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,629
    Scott_xP said:

    Can't believe PB are missing the most important story of the day...

    Apparently the racist RefUK volunteer featured on Channel 4 last night is an actor

    Can actors not also be volunteers? Or are you saying he isn't a volunteer at all?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,053

    Let’s put it another way - if they go with Harris it’s a huge gamble but they’ve got a chance to win.

    If they go with Biden, they lose now I’m afraid.

    No, even now Biden is more electable than Harris in the swing states.

    Whitmer maybe the only alternative who polls better there
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,126

    Can actors not also be volunteers? Or are you saying he isn't a volunteer at all?
    :)

    The RefUK team are claiming he wasn't a volunteer at all

    Everyone else is pointing out that volunteers also have day jobs...

    @IsabelOakeshott

    Yes, sure, it’s theoretically possible that Channel 4 just *happened* to strike gold by finding a horrendous racist who just HAPPENS to be an actor who just HAPPENS to specialise in the same “rough voice” used in the undercover footage and just HAPPENS to be a Reform supporter.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,244

    Biden does not have dementia.

    He is old.

    Anyone who knows somebody with dementia as I do would not class Biden as having it.

    There are several forms of dementia. They do not all have the same symptoms. My mother's partner had one of the less common ones and in its early stages it wasn't entirely dissimilar to how Biden is presenting.
This discussion has been closed.