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#NU10K – politicalbetting.com

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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Pulpstar said:

    Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.

    Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.

    It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
    True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.

    But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
    It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited January 12

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
    Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.

    "The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"

    How, why?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,560
    edited January 12
    rcs1000 said:

    maxh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.

    Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).

    But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
    Yes, it is all that.

    Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.

    With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.

    And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
    Until you forget to charge the battery...

    I only have a tourer and a mountain bike, and neither are really suitable activities for bling gears which can't be fixed easily. Mrs Flatlander insisted on downtube shifters on her tourer, although they are indexed at least.

    No doubt they are good for a fast blast, particularly if you've got a car with 6 bikes on the roof driving behind you.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,253

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
    Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.

    "The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"

    How, why?
    Hopefully one of our eminent lawyers can explain.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Open it up, and first thing I see is mention of PACCAR - based in Bellevue, across Lake Washington from Seattle.

    Assholes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    NEW: Keir Starmer privately called The Sun's attacks on his legal past "ill-informed nonsense"

    Aides have been ready for the attacks since 2019

    One warns Sunak against targeting pasts or "voters will get to hear about him betting against Britain in the City"

    [@thetimes]

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1745858914522960319?s=20
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
    Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.

    "The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"

    How, why?
    Hopefully one of our eminent lawyers can explain.
    Ain't one of those, but do know that PO appeals were funded in large measure via funding provided by firm(s) or whatever specializing in that, in return (I think) for share of favorable monetary awards in cases so funded.

    And that this isn't legal for technical reasons going forward . . . unless of course Parliament changes the law, to correct the crap drafting?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told :)
    Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.

    AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,184
    rcs1000 said:

    maxh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.

    Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).

    But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
    Yes, it is all that.

    Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.

    With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.

    And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
    Interesting, thanks.

    Does it need some sort of power? Do you recharge the shifters somehow? (I realise I could Google this).

    I do wonder if it will succumb to similar flaws as hydraulic disc brakes, though; wonderful to use but temperamental then when it breaks it is tricky to fix by the roadside/at home.

    I have liked my bikes fixable ever since I rode through South America and couldn’t ever get spare parts. I acknowledge that might not be an issue on the StP run, though.
  • Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told :)
    Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.

    AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
    But Irish, you didn't come under starter's orders, did you?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.

    Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.

    It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
    True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.

    But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
    It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
    American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.

    Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.

    Not THAT's football!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told :)
    Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.

    AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
    But Irish, you didn't come under starter's orders, did you?
    Ben P himself told me my "spoiled" ballot rehabilitated IF any of my predictions pan out.

    Justice of sorts, served chilled with a lukewarm cup of sick?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,300
    Has Blair resigned yet?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    edited January 12

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Either he gives an answer and apology in the next week or so or the clamour gets stronger. I don't think media interest will die back and with the enquiry running all year I cannot see the scrutiny fading. It will hobble his campaign plan.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779
    Evening all :)

    After some hints of better polls for the Conservatives, today's crop has been the equivalent of being slapped in the face with a cold wet haddock.

    Three polls (YouGov, Techne and We Think) all having the Conservatives below 25% and Labour back to around 45%. That equates to a 16-17% swing from Labour to Conservative and a comfortable landslide of Starmer and the equivalent of going straight from 1987 to 1997 without another election between.

    Little evidence as yet of any serious cut through from the Post Office scandal. Perhaps most people have decided everyone has to take a bit of the blame. I now see even Tony Blair was told of possible problems with Horizon way back in 1998. It really has been a disaster thirty years in the making.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    maxh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    maxh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.

    Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).

    But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
    Yes, it is all that.

    Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.

    With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.

    And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
    Interesting, thanks.

    Does it need some sort of power? Do you recharge the shifters somehow? (I realise I could Google this).

    I do wonder if it will succumb to similar flaws as hydraulic disc brakes, though; wonderful to use but temperamental then when it breaks it is tricky to fix by the roadside/at home.

    I have liked my bikes fixable ever since I rode through South America and couldn’t ever get spare parts. I acknowledge that might not be an issue on the StP run, though.
    I am not a massive fan of disk brakes: great stopping power, but the application of them feels... uneven compared to traditional brakes.

    So, the handlebar shifters have a little coin shaped battery (I believe) that lasts forever.

    For the rear derailleur, it's a small removable, rechargeable battery, that lasts for 24-100 hours of riding (depending on how much you change gear). People going on long rides tend to a second with them.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    The politico that yours truly most wants to see walk the plank, preferably sooner than later, and with a big splash either way, is New Jersey US Senator Bob Menendez (D-Qatar).

    Speaking as a Democrat that is.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    AP (via Seattle Times) - Oregon Supreme Court keeps Trump on primary ballot
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,001

    Has Blair resigned yet?

    Yes.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,720

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.

    Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.

    It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
    True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.

    But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
    It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
    American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.

    Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.

    Not THAT's football!
    I think it was colleges originally - what became the Ivy League codified it. A bit like proper football starting out with public schools it later became the working man's game of middle America. Though baseball was the dominant sport until the 60s and 70s - as it made for better television. So relatively recent in historic terms.

    But it was in its early days much more of a running game so was much more conducive to being played in bad weather and being the winter game. Which in the North Eastern college towns and Mid Western cities in which it really took off early, meant playing in some brutally freezing conditions sometimes. And is less of an issue if you're mainly running the ball rather than trying to set up elaborate plays, as now, which are easier in perfect weather.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    edited January 12
    Foxy said:

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Either he gives an answer and apology in the next week or so or the clamour gets stronger. I don't think media interest will die back and with the enquiry running all year I cannot see the scrutiny fading. It will hobble his campaign plan.
    He can't very well keep up the "poor me" act without it becoming even more pathetic.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 12
    Sir Keir in Qatar, where he won’t go because of their LGBQT laws, via a private jet that Labour want to stop politicians travelling in

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745885562953678974?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    MJW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.

    Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.

    It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
    True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.

    But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
    It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
    American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.

    Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.

    Not THAT's football!
    I think it was colleges originally - what became the Ivy League codified it. A bit like proper football starting out with public schools it later became the working man's game of middle America. Though baseball was the dominant sport until the 60s and 70s - as it made for better television. So relatively recent in historic terms.

    But it was in its early days much more of a running game so was much more conducive to being played in bad weather and being the winter game. Which in the North Eastern college towns and Mid Western cities in which it really took off early, meant playing in some brutally freezing conditions sometimes. And is less of an issue if you're mainly running the ball rather than trying to set up elaborate plays, as now, which are easier in perfect weather.
    Yes. What I meant to say, was that American PROFESSIONAL football got started in rust/snow belt.

    Which is big reason the Football Hall of Fame is located in Canton, Ohio. Which back in 1920s was home of the famed Canton Bulldogs. At a time when some high school teams there, and some other Mid-west cities, could give the pros some trouble between the goal posts.

    This was era when Notre Dame emerged as powerhouse in college football, challenging then displacing the boys of the Ivy League. And when Jim Thorpe was THE big star of the pro game.

    When my father was himself a boy, he used to see newsreels that featured an aging Thorpe doing his signature trick at half-time: standing on the 50-yard line and kicking a field goal in one direction . . . then turning 180 degrees and kicking a field goal in the other direction . . . regardless of which way and how much the wind was blowing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told :)
    No correlation, sadly, fun though that would be.

    Every current leader had at least one prediction of demise - except Ed Davey. All 81 entries to the predictions competition had Davey leading the LDs into the next GE.

    TSE has a short header from me which will hopefully show and link to a spreadie of all the entries, but there have been quite a few excellent and topical headers this week, so I am sure it will appear whenever there is a lull.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    kinabalu said:

    Goodbye Tenerife 😔

    What did the Americans bomb that too?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Non-paywall: https://archive.is/axYe5
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.

    So bollocks to hindsight.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,640
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    We await the results of the Letby and PO inquiries to see if the managers involved to face more severe sanctions

    The problem HY is it will be the little people who are punished. That is why I think we were so excited that politicians of Davy and Starmer's stature may end up serving jail time.

    My mother died as part of the Princess of Wales Hospital neglect saga. Two Filipino nurses were given custodial sentences. The Hospital managers received no sanction. Many remain in post a dozen years later.
    This sort of thing is what’s behind @Malmesbury’s thinking, that those taking the large pay cheques appear to be unable to be held to account for their failures; and on the rare occasions when they do resign, they usually take a large payout and pop up in a similar (or better!) high-paid job a few months later. None of them ever get ‘struck off’ the management grades, in the same way as often happens to those on the front line.
    Hospital managers are not on “large pay cheques” however.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604

    Against ministers? How embarrassing to try to present himself as one of the victims.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216
    Has Rishi called an election yet ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,640

    State of Democracy in the UK

    71% of Brits back an immediate Gaza ceasefire.

    ✅ Support 71%
    ❌ Oppose 12%

    82% of Labour voters back a ceasefire.

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 20-21 December

    Britain is not able to deliver a Gaza ceasefire, so is this a failure of democracy?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,640
    rcs1000 said:

    Selebian said:

    O/T

    Rishi did indeed stop ALL boats by the end of the year.

    Another pledge ticked.

    https://news.sky.com/story/no-small-boats-have-crossed-the-channel-for-25-days-the-longest-break-since-2020-13046327

    (Just don't read the bit about Storm Henk)

    Storm Henk being the new officer in charge of UK Border Police? :wink:
    While Storm Henk has no doubt played a significant role recent role, it's worth digging into the numbers on people crossing the channel by small boats.

    Back in 2022, Albanians were almost 30% of all the people making in the crossing. In the second half of 2023, they were under 10%. So - sure - weather probably played a role. But the biggest impact by far was the fact that Albanians no longer saw small boats as a sensible way to get into the UK.
    Indeed. It was a significant success. And it was achieved by bilateral negotiation with Albania, rather than by threatening Rwanda or other madcap schemes. Yet the Tories don’t want to talk about trying for more bilateral deals.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 12
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.

    I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
    Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for

    People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited January 12

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.

    I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
    Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for

    People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
    Good post - I agree with both points.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646

    State of Democracy in the UK

    71% of Brits back an immediate Gaza ceasefire.

    ✅ Support 71%
    ❌ Oppose 12%

    82% of Labour voters back a ceasefire.

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 20-21 December

    Britain is not able to deliver a Gaza ceasefire, so is this a failure of democracy?
    Apparently they are also polling on the length of the day. It's been 24hrs for so long... :)
  • .

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Think you highlighted the wrong thing.

    Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779

    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604

    Against ministers? How embarrassing to try to present himself as one of the victims.
    He's clearly not doing that.
  • chrisbchrisb Posts: 114

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting article by Alan Bates on why he couldn't win today, seems outside the paywall.

    https://www.ft.com/content/1b11f96d-b96d-4ced-9dee-98c40008b172

    Paywalled, and even the old 'Google the FT headline' trick no longer seems to work.
    Try from the FT twitter, that's how I read it:

    https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1745821127316849030?t=IVuqw3zzU1XNaHnd5h_BEQ&s=19
    Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
    Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.

    "The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"

    How, why?
    Hopefully one of our eminent lawyers can explain.
    Ain't one of those, but do know that PO appeals were funded in large measure via funding provided by firm(s) or whatever specializing in that, in return (I think) for share of favorable monetary awards in cases so funded.

    And that this isn't legal for technical reasons going forward . . . unless of course Parliament changes the law, to correct the crap drafting?
    Mr Bates is overstating the impact of that PACCAR case on the litigation financing industry in the UK. All that case did was determine that collective action claims cannot be funded through a structure whereby the provider of the financing receives a percentage of the damages. Cases funded in that way are considered to be 'Damages Based Agreements' and as such are required to comply with certain regulations which were not drafted with litigation financing in mind. The impact of the case is simply that litigation funding agreements are now structured in other ways, typically where the funder receives a multiple of the capital it invests.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    Edit: FPT
    So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are:
    Keir Starmer
    Paula Vennels
    Keir Starmer
    Ed Davey
    Keir Starmer
    Horizon
    Keir Starmer
    Labour politicians
    Keir Starmer
    Lib Dem politicians
    Keir Starmer
    Lawyers
    Keir Starmer

    Tony Blair
    Keir Starmer
    Peter Mandelson
    Keir Starmer

    The innocent people are:
    Rishi Sunak
    Conservative Politicians
    Sub Postmasters
    Have I got that right?

    I'd only give you 50/50 on the sub-postmasters. Some of them sounded a bit foreign so are basically guilty.

    This is what happens when you promote Constable Savage to the board. Promoted before you give him a knighthood too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    Nigelb said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.

    So bollocks to hindsight.
    Pure Whataboutery.

    New Labour knew there were issues, approved it, deployed it, experienced mass prosecutions and never thought to even re-ask the most basic of questions about this?

    A massive failing of government.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,325
    darkage said:

    Flying from very small regional airports with no hold luggage is very convenient. You can get a taxi or lift to the front door and arrive at the airport 10 mins before boarding time. The whole thing gets ruined as soon as the airport starts growing in size and Ryanair etc arrive.

    As long as the tide is right. This little gem has more scheduled flights than the whole of North Korea:

    https://www.hial.co.uk/barra-airport

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.

    I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
    Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for

    People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
    I've changed my mind following that weasel interview where he refused to say sorry 10 times, and just blamed the Post Office.

    The man has to go.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    isam said:

    Sir Ed posts…

    I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.

    This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.


    https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604

    Against ministers? How embarrassing to try to present himself as one of the victims.
    He's got to go.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    Nigelb said:

    Has Rishi called an election yet ?

    Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:

    I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,325

    .

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Think you highlighted the wrong thing.

    Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
    While this is troubling, there is a great distance between going ahead with a flawed technical system and knowingly using those flaws to put people into prison when you know they may well be innocent.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    Exactly.

    As with Watergate, it wasn't the break in which finished Nixon but the cover up.

    The problem this week has been trying to make a cheap political point or damage opponents (guilty as charged) has been used by all sides to hide the actual unvarnished which has been a prolonged and sustained cover up of a catastrophic syatem implementation.

    The remaining questions are really why no one in the Post Office at very senior level either understood or realised what was going on and why they seemingly colluded in this cover up. Indeed, the longer it went on the more extreme the denial of any problem seemed to get and the more severe the action against anyone (politician, journalist or insider) who started asking questions or getting close to the truth.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited January 12
    "Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.

    The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:

    Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.

    par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office
    I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/inquiry-re-start-preview/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O24T0TmoVc
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.

    Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.

    It's -5C here just now and my boiler has conked out twice today. Glad for the two different boiler services I've had recently that keep it in tip-top order.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,325

    Nigelb said:

    Has Rishi called an election yet ?

    Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:

    I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
    I was in an old people's home in East Anglia. It was by some distance the most exciting thing that happened there all year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    .

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Think you highlighted the wrong thing.

    Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
    I think that threatened closures were a significant part of the problem.

    I think there was political pressure to pay pensions and benefits via sub post offices to keep them viable, rather than by direct bank transfer.

    Hence Horizon.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    edited January 12
    Andy_JS said:

    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.

    Indeed. Getting the nomination from every single PB predictor was as good a black spot as you could find.

    Perhaps @SeaShantyIrish2 will be shown to be the master after all.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    Nigelb said:

    Has Rishi called an election yet ?

    Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:

    I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
    You couldn't believe she'd been PM in the first place? You and me both...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Of course not. They have only been in government for the last 13 years. How could they be responsible?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    edited January 12

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories, and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320
    isam said:

    darkage said:

    I've been doing a commute recently on certain mornings from Finland to London.
    Leave from a local airport around 5.30 getting to London before 9, with a connecting flight. I can get in to the office at the same time as my colleagues who have no idea how I got to work. The 2 hour time difference helps.

    Everton striker Arnaud Danjuma apparently gets the plane to training each day from his home in Manchester!
    He's got his own runway??
    No wonder we're skint.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    I still can’t believe what happened to those postmasters actually did happen.

    Why did the people at Fujitsu tell them they were the only ones complaining?

    Why did the fact dozens of postmasters were calling in to find out why they were so far wrong in their figures not trigger someone to look at the system?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
    How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    Mandy still is, although I suppose he’s not technically a politician
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    isam said:

    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
    How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
    I admit that I’ve not been following your posts today but your determination to blame SKS alone for this prior to today was noted by many other than me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    Mandy still is, although I suppose he’s not technically a politician
    Lords get to rule us forever.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216
    edited January 12

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.

    So bollocks to hindsight.
    Pure Whataboutery.

    New Labour knew there were issues, approved it, deployed it, experienced mass prosecutions and never thought to even re-ask the most basic of questions about this?

    A massive failing of government.
    It's pointing out that the current government has recently made almost exactly the same procurement decision you're criticising Blair's administration for.
    With Fujitsu. Again.

    I've no interest in defending Blair's administration - they were, after all, the ones who put in place the rules of evidence regarding computer systems - but the current government clearly doesn't think the procurement itself was a mistake.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779
    edited January 12
    Andy_JS said:

    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.

    I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.

    Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.

    This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993
    ...
    isam said:

    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
    How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
    You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.

    How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598

    Edit: FPT
    So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are:
    Keir Starmer
    Paula Vennels
    Keir Starmer
    Ed Davey
    Keir Starmer
    Horizon
    Keir Starmer
    Labour politicians
    Keir Starmer
    Lib Dem politicians
    Keir Starmer
    Lawyers
    Keir Starmer

    Tony Blair
    Keir Starmer
    Peter Mandelson
    Keir Starmer

    The innocent people are:
    Rishi Sunak
    Conservative Politicians
    Sub Postmasters
    Have I got that right?

    You forgot the Home Secs passim for screwing up the justice system.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 12
    DougSeal said:

    isam said:

    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
    How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
    I admit that I’ve not been following your posts today but your determination to blame SKS alone for this prior to today was noted by many other than me.
    That just shows that they weren’t reading what I wrote either. You’re in a 1970s supergroup ft Paul Rodgers.

    I didn’t blame Sir Keir once. I said that it would
    disable his “I was Director of Public Prosecutions” White Knight schtick, time & again, and I think it will. He’s already riding back on his previous boasts.

    But that’s not blaming him for the
    miscarriages of justice, because they’re obviously not his fault
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,720

    rcs1000 said:

    Selebian said:

    O/T

    Rishi did indeed stop ALL boats by the end of the year.

    Another pledge ticked.

    https://news.sky.com/story/no-small-boats-have-crossed-the-channel-for-25-days-the-longest-break-since-2020-13046327

    (Just don't read the bit about Storm Henk)

    Storm Henk being the new officer in charge of UK Border Police? :wink:
    While Storm Henk has no doubt played a significant role recent role, it's worth digging into the numbers on people crossing the channel by small boats.

    Back in 2022, Albanians were almost 30% of all the people making in the crossing. In the second half of 2023, they were under 10%. So - sure - weather probably played a role. But the biggest impact by far was the fact that Albanians no longer saw small boats as a sensible way to get into the UK.
    Indeed. It was a significant success. And it was achieved by bilateral negotiation with Albania, rather than by threatening Rwanda or other madcap schemes. Yet the Tories don’t want to talk about trying for more bilateral deals.
    This rather captures the terrible politics of Rwanda. If he'd have been brave when standing for leader post-Truss, Sunak could have kept Braverman sacked, ditched Rwanda as impractical nonsense, and pitched it as one of his difficult decisions made by a government returning to a more grown-up approach that would actually solve the problem. Then looked to do the kind of deals like the Albanian one that would get real reductions. Finally, put some harder line stuff in the manifesto asking voters to let him 'finish the job'.

    Instead he tied himself to the nutters in his party, and a madcap scheme even Reform criticise as costly and impractical. Meaning that any successes are completely overshadowed, and he's in a mess on an issue that should be home turf for a right-wing Tory leader.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    ...

    isam said:

    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.

    But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
    Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
    How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
    You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
    Another false claim. That was James O’Brien, and I stand by it
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    Andy_JS said:

    "Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.

    The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:

    Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.

    par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office
    I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/inquiry-re-start-preview/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O24T0TmoVc

    Andy_JS said:

    "Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.

    The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:

    Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.

    par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office
    I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/inquiry-re-start-preview/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O24T0TmoVc

    Sorta sounds like the ice is maybe starting to crack.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,001
    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.

    Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.

    I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.

    Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.

    This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
    Like I posted earlier, that isn't true of our voters.



    Unless he comes clean and kills the story very soon it will dog us all year. I like Davey and have voted twice for him to be our leader, but we have to put party ahead of personalities. He can be very useful still if Cooper was leader.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.

    I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.

    Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.

    This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
    The original misjudgment was not a resigning matter: he was entitled to take the PO at face value.

    The utter ineptitude with which he has handled it this month might prove to be a different matter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163
    algarkirk said:

    .

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Think you highlighted the wrong thing.

    Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
    While this is troubling, there is a great distance between going ahead with a flawed technical system and knowingly using those flaws to put people into prison when you know they may well be innocent.
    It is absolutely zero surprise that that slimy slug went into bat for Fujistsu. Why he and his type of politician (hello Osborne) who can't see someone wealthy and powerful without getting a moist upper lip are feted here is a mystery. The cult of 'dull competence'.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.

    Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
    Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    I have always, ever since I started being a litigator, sent draft statements to clients and said firmly “this has to be in your words, if there is anything in this you feel uncomfortable saying out loud if you had to, any legalese you don’t understand, anything wrong at all, then change it”. The basic shit I’m reading about in the PO Inquiry here makes me cringe. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,652

    Has Ed Davey resigned yet?

    Has Cleverly for his date-rape shocker?
    He blooming well ought to have...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,303
    edited January 12
    DONKEYGATE

    Sir Keir Royale.

    Sir Ted Gravy.

    Jumpers for goalposts.

    In God’s name go.

    And go now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.

    Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
    Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
    Probably not, at least before the first convictions were overturned in the courts.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993
    Foxy said:

    Looks like Murdoch controls the BBC now too:

    Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

    A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

    But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

    Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

    In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

    He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
    Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
    There is an inevitability that in election year GBNews, the Mail, Express, and the Telegraph will report Opposition culpability and ignore any Government errors. Interestingly both the Independent and the BBC are also piling in on Labour and the LDs.

    Badenoch's invisibility has been startling, although tbf she has more important matters to deal with like Tory Party leadership succession.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.

    How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?

    What about leader of the Liberal Democrats though?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,459
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.

    I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.

    Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.

    This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
    The original misjudgment was not a resigning matter: he was entitled to take the PO at face value.

    The utter ineptitude with which he has handled it this month might prove to be a different matter.
    "C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute."

    Let me be first to note that whatever Ed Davie did or rather didn't, is NOT in same league as the murder of duc d'Enghein.

    Nevertheless . . .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    DougSeal said:

    I have always, ever since I started being a litigator, sent draft statements to clients and said firmly “this has to be in your words, if there is anything in this you feel uncomfortable saying out loud if you had to, any legalese you don’t understand, anything wrong at all, then change it”. The basic shit I’m reading about in the PO Inquiry here makes me cringe. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic.

    Part of growing older is realising that the people at the very top are often crappier than yourself. In their professed trade.

    I sat open mouthed as the software process for the Boeing Starliner spacecraft was described. Badly designed, implemented and tested. By avionics engineers who were supposed to be on top of their game.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,678
    If Isam and Casino were on a jury they would find the judge guilty.
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