Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
Two politics related one for me:
*) Bigot-gate in 2010; I think it was late afternoon/early evening, and I'd just completed a walk in the Dorset area. I came down off the hills, got in my car, turned on the news and started howling with laughter.
*) A day or so after GE 2010, wild (illegal) camping in a field somewhere in the Dorset area, listening late into the night about the various options for coalition governments to be formed. It's amazing that people thought the 'rainbow coalition' would ever have worked...
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
I doubt it, and for all our sakes, I really hope not.
(More likely, nobody told an absolute black is white lie, but there was a chain where every level told their manager that a darker grey was a paler grey. Another reason to prefer smaller organisations with shorter chains of command.)
The overnight airstrikes against the Houthis appear to have "degraded their capability" (nice turn of phrase) to attack shipping on the scale of Tuesday but I think we can assume any shortfall in missiles will be made up by Iran and North Korea in short order.
Needless to say, the population in the Houthi controlled part of Yemen has reacted angrily to what has happened but that won't bother Washington or London too much. The strategic importance of the Bab-al-Mandab strait and the economic consequences of an oil price shock on already struggling economies (there was talk of a street party lovally to celebrate the 0.3% growth in November but we all realised it was too cold and we couldn't afford it).
As to where we go from here, it depends on what the Houthi leadership decide. The problem is the anger of the population will likely re-enforce a radical position rather than one which recognises the infirmity of their situation. I suspect it won't be long before American warplanes are over Sana'a again.
"Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.
The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:
Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.
par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."
“Expressly sought to mislead” the court - if only there was a single word that could accurately summarise that expression, seven letters, starting with P and ending in Y…
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
In the late 80s/early 90s she had a Sunday evening request show straight after the Top 40 that I looked forward to as the one redeeming part of the pre-Monday blues. RIP.
Britain is not able to deliver a Gaza ceasefire, so is this a failure of democracy?
Apparently they are also polling on the length of the day. It's been 24hrs for so long...
Actually if people realised how much variation there was in the length of the day there's be riots in the street. But they've been sold an artificial construct called "mean time" to keep their noses to the grindstone and up until now it seems to be working.
I still can’t believe what happened to those postmasters actually did happen.
Why did the people at Fujitsu tell them they were the only ones complaining?
Why did the fact dozens of postmasters were calling in to find out why they were so far wrong in their figures not trigger someone to look at the system?
1. The whole point of the new system was to detect the massive fraud.
2. The new system detected massive fraud.
3. Bonuses and congratulations all round, they put the fraudsters in prison.
4. Oh sh!t, this new system was producing bollocks instead of accounts.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
How do you stop lying? Most people have lied at least once in their lives. I was a teenage bullshitter rather than a liar - a slightly more understandable breed. But I did my share of childhood lying.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
Two politics related one for me:
*) Bigot-gate in 2010; I think it was late afternoon/early evening, and I'd just completed a walk in the Dorset area. I came down off the hills, got in my car, turned on the news and started howling with laughter.
*) A day or so after GE 2010, wild (illegal) camping in a field somewhere in the Dorset area, listening late into the night about the various options for coalition governments to be formed. It's amazing that people thought the 'rainbow coalition' would ever have worked...
A few days later, 11th May, the day Brown and Cameron went to the Palace - the same day as my sister’s wedding. Several of us sneaked out after the formalities to watch events unfold on TV.
I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
Like I posted earlier, that isn't true of our voters.
Unless he comes clean and kills the story very soon it will dog us all year. I like Davey and have voted twice for him to be our leader, but we have to put party ahead of personalities. He can be very useful still if Cooper was leader.
Good Evening
Catching up on today's thread and have just watched Davey's ITV interview and it was a car crash and so embarrassing
I cannot understand why he couldn't just say sorry, but his prevarication is damaging him and it will follow him all the way to the election especially if the sub post mistress carries out her threat to stand against him in GE24
Politics is tough, and I think a wise word in his ear would be advisable if the Lib Dems do not want this to overshadow their election campaign
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
How do you stop lying? Most people have lied at least once in their lives. I was a teenage bullshitter rather than a liar - a slightly more understandable breed. But I did my share of childhood lying.
Making deliberate lies in/to government Misconduct in a Public Office?
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
Why do people tell lies? Specifically to ministers, but more generally as well.
Rough answer, I suspect, is that it works for them better than always telling the truth. So we need to fix that. Which is some mixture of:
Increasing the punishment for lying. Increasing the probability of being caught if you do tell a lie. Reducing the penalty for telling uncomfortable truths.
My suspicion is that the last is where the best answer is. But I don't know how to get there. Indeed, with the rise of gotcha soundbite politics, we're probably further away than ever.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
Very odd suggestion if I may, given that boy scouts weren't supposed to lie but be true in (IIRC) thought, word and deed.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
I doubt it, and for all our sakes, I really hope not.
(More likely, nobody told an absolute black is white lie, but there was a chain where every level told their manager that a darker grey was a paler grey. Another reason to prefer smaller organisations with shorter chains of command.)
In terms of the scandal while it was unfolding, I suspect not.
Politicians made some mistakes, from which we and they could learn if only the pitiful party political pass-the-blame-parcel game playing would stop. But I don’t think any of them knew that much about the system’s weaknesses and flaws at the time.
What would blow the inquiry open is if someone senior in the PO at the time says they were pressured by government to give the contract to ICL, who were very nearly excluded altogether from the process. The way in which they were added back to the shortlist at the actual board meeting itself, and then went on to be chosen, seems a bit suspect to me. But much of the relevant evidence has already been given, and even if this wild theory has any legs, I’m not convinced anyone would actually come clean. Even if they did, it would be a different scandal, since no-one could have foreseen what lay ahead.
What is more mystifying is the lengths to which the 2019 government went to smooth Vennells’s exit from the PO, her name already tarnished and the scandal already in plain sight. Giving her an honour and a cabinet office directorship and an NHS trust chairmanship, as well as the two commercial non-exec positions she picked up, suggests to me that she was very well connected and being looked after by powerful friends.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
The focus on Davey is a big distraction from the bastards in the PO - the management, PR, legal, enforcement, IT. They are who we should be focusing on. How can we make sure they get screwed. EDIT And Fujitsu
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
How do you stop lying? Most people have lied at least once in their lives. I was a teenage bullshitter rather than a liar - a slightly more understandable breed. But I did my share of childhood lying.
Making deliberate lies in/to government Misconduct in a Public Office?
I don’t think it would change much. People lie in court all the time despite perjury and contempt having been criminalised for centuries. The longer I work in the law the more I’m convinced that changing culture is more important than changing law. But how do you change culture?
The overnight airstrikes against the Houthis appear to have "degraded their capability" (nice turn of phrase) to attack shipping on the scale of Tuesday but I think we can assume any shortfall in missiles will be made up by Iran and North Korea in short order.
Needless to say, the population in the Houthi controlled part of Yemen has reacted angrily to what has happened but that won't bother Washington or London too much. The strategic importance of the Bab-al-Mandab strait and the economic consequences of an oil price shock on already struggling economies (there was talk of a street party lovally to celebrate the 0.3% growth in November but we all realised it was too cold and we couldn't afford it).
As to where we go from here, it depends on what the Houthi leadership decide. The problem is the anger of the population will likely re-enforce a radical position rather than one which recognises the infirmity of their situation. I suspect it won't be long before American warplanes are over Sana'a again.
The American Armed forces are the most sophisticated and powerful the world has ever seen. I have little doubt that if someone was capable of taking out their command and control centres it would cause almost insuperable problems. I am ever more bemused, however, that they seem to think that the same applies to every rag tag bunch of guerrillas on the planet. It just ain't so.
Anyone seriously believing that these raids degraded the capabilities of the Houthi rebels in any material sense has simply not being paying attention to the disasters in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, to name a few. It was a bizarre step. Lethal counterbattery attacks on anyone firing at ships would have worked so much better.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
How do you stop lying? Most people have lied at least once in their lives. I was a teenage bullshitter rather than a liar - a slightly more understandable breed. But I did my share of childhood lying.
Making deliberate lies in/to government Misconduct in a Public Office?
If you want to stop lying then you need to give reasons for people to tell the truth and reward them for doing so. Once whistle-blowers feel safe in their jobs, indeed rewarded and promoted for whistleblowing, they will do so. If you give people a reason to lie instead, such as firing the whistle blowers, then you will be fed on lies.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
If they go you can celebrate by spending a wedge of cash on a slap up Greggs.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Blaming Starmer AND Davey?
I’ve never blamed either
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
And why do you think that might be?
I don't write the BBC, Times or Guardian articles.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
The focus on Davey is a big distraction from the bastards in the PO - the management, PR, legal, enforcement, IT. They are who we should be focusing on. How can we make sure they get screwed. EDIT And Fujitsu
I have little doubt all those you mention will be held accountable in time, and as far as Davey is concerned he has not helped his cause, a simple sorry when asked would have helped, not refusing 10 times
The overnight airstrikes against the Houthis appear to have "degraded their capability" (nice turn of phrase) to attack shipping on the scale of Tuesday but I think we can assume any shortfall in missiles will be made up by Iran and North Korea in short order.
Needless to say, the population in the Houthi controlled part of Yemen has reacted angrily to what has happened but that won't bother Washington or London too much. The strategic importance of the Bab-al-Mandab strait and the economic consequences of an oil price shock on already struggling economies (there was talk of a street party lovally to celebrate the 0.3% growth in November but we all realised it was too cold and we couldn't afford it).
As to where we go from here, it depends on what the Houthi leadership decide. The problem is the anger of the population will likely re-enforce a radical position rather than one which recognises the infirmity of their situation. I suspect it won't be long before American warplanes are over Sana'a again.
The American Armed forces are the most sophisticated and powerful the world has ever seen. I have little doubt that if someone was capable of taking out their command and control centres it would cause almost insuperable problems. I am ever more bemused, however, that they seem to think that the same applies to every rag tag bunch of guerrillas on the planet. It just ain't so.
Anyone seriously believing that these raids degraded the capabilities of the Houthi rebels in any material sense has simply not being paying attention to the disasters in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, to name a few. It was a bizarre step. Lethal counterbattery attacks on anyone firing at ships would have worked so much better.
It only makes sense as a warning: desist or…. Something.
The overnight airstrikes against the Houthis appear to have "degraded their capability" (nice turn of phrase) to attack shipping on the scale of Tuesday but I think we can assume any shortfall in missiles will be made up by Iran and North Korea in short order.
Needless to say, the population in the Houthi controlled part of Yemen has reacted angrily to what has happened but that won't bother Washington or London too much. The strategic importance of the Bab-al-Mandab strait and the economic consequences of an oil price shock on already struggling economies (there was talk of a street party lovally to celebrate the 0.3% growth in November but we all realised it was too cold and we couldn't afford it).
As to where we go from here, it depends on what the Houthi leadership decide. The problem is the anger of the population will likely re-enforce a radical position rather than one which recognises the infirmity of their situation. I suspect it won't be long before American warplanes are over Sana'a again.
The American Armed forces are the most sophisticated and powerful the world has ever seen. I have little doubt that if someone was capable of taking out their command and control centres it would cause almost insuperable problems. I am ever more bemused, however, that they seem to think that the same applies to every rag tag bunch of guerrillas on the planet. It just ain't so.
Anyone seriously believing that these raids degraded the capabilities of the Houthi rebels in any material sense has simply not being paying attention to the disasters in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, to name a few. It was a bizarre step. Lethal counterbattery attacks on anyone firing at ships would have worked so much better.
Er, not necessarily, on the latter point. Some missiles are simply fired and the crews then bugger off on their launching lorries before retaliation arrives. The A-4/V-2 fired from mobile launchers in 1944-45 is the classic example. RAF had to try and bumb the supply depots and routes for want of anything else - not as if they could monitor or bomb every bit of flat roadway in the Netherlands where some Germans might possibly rock up with a convoy, plink down the pad, raise the missile on the launcher, fuel up, fire and clear off.
Nowadays there must be some other opportunity in terms of the target acquisition radars, but even those need not be very large or complex to pick up big cargo ships, I suppose.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Blaming Starmer AND Davey?
I’ve never blamed either
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Blaming Starmer AND Davey?
I’ve never blamed either
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
The focus on Davey is a big distraction from the bastards in the PO - the management, PR, legal, enforcement, IT. They are who we should be focusing on. How can we make sure they get screwed. EDIT And Fujitsu
I think Fujitsu are being lined up to bear the brunt of it, and the Machiavelline cynic in me wonders if the recent Government contracts they've been awarded are extra juicy to take into account the compo that brave Sunak will manfully stamp his foot and force them to cough up.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
Two? Three? Or convenient error?
Two. Read my post. Actually the real @SandyRentool should go and go now too. His hatred of food and living a good life in general grates daily. Go Sandy, and go now.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Blaming Starmer AND Davey?
I’ve never blamed either
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
Not me squire I am but an ill-educated serf.
Count yourself lucky to be educated at all, serf.
When the next Sunak Government repeals the 1944 Education Act it is just a short trip to the workhouse.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
@TheLastBoyScout is one of the few PBers to emerge from this with any credit. Don’t try to slur him by association.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
@TheLastBoyScout is one of the few PBers to emerge from this with any credit. Don’t try to slur him by association.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
To give isam some credit, he's made obvious efforts to be even handed on the PO thing today..
Blaming Starmer AND Davey?
I’ve never blamed either
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
Not me squire I am but an ill-educated serf.
Count yourself lucky to be educated at all, serf.
When the next Sunak Government repeals the 1944 Education Act it is just a short trip to the workhouse.
I remember the Spitting Image sketch about Major and Co. smashing up number ten before the 1992 election, then returning after their surprise win to find the place trashed, as they had left it.
If by some miracle Sunak wins, 2024 (/5) will be like that on steroids. They won’t have a clue what to do next - since who in the Tory election and manifesto planning outfit has any reason to be doing any hard thinking about the country’s deep problems, right now?
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
If they go you can celebrate by spending a wedge of cash on a slap up Greggs.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
And why do you think that might be?
I don't write the BBC, Times or Guardian articles.
You think they're all in on it?
The media are as much followers as leaders. It's easy for the client media to lay an aniseed trail for others to follow. Like drag hunting. They then stand back and admire their handywork. This is Sunak's Uxbridge ULEZ, followed by Houthi bombing being Sunak's Falklands. The Tories are desperate to save a few tory blue wall seats.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
If they go you can celebrate by spending a wedge of cash on a slap up Greggs.
Why would you wish that fate on me?
I had my late lunch at the Gregg's on the Pershore by pass yesterday. Mmmm, egg mayonnaise filling between shoe leather.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
@TheLastBoyScout is one of the few PBers to emerge from this with any credit. Don’t try to slur him by association.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
What about all the boy scouts who've been and gone from time to time?
@TheLastBoyScout is one of the few PBers to emerge from this with any credit. Don’t try to slur him by association.
David, just to address your point earlier: In 2021, The UK exports of oil in 2021 were £28 billion, while imports were £30 billion. Most of those imports were from Norway.
Despite our near self-reliance for oil, and close relationship with the stable and friendly Norway, our economy is still vulnerable to global energy markets. Increasing production in the North Sea would have a minuscule effect on oil prices in those markets.
To be fair, the same weakness applies to renewables in the short term. I was on a 100% renewable tariff yet Ukraine still smashed my energy bill.
In the long term, energy security in a WW3 scenario will come from 100% domestic renewable production of electricity, replacing our reliance on gas imports from Qatar. In terms of the energy markets, it will come from eroding the influence of our adversaries on those markets by encouraging renewables in Europe, USA, Canada...
However, there is a strong economic case for the NE. I have several friends employed in O&G from that part of Scotland. But that's a different argument.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
It's funny though how the name on the media's (and your) lips is only Davey though.
The focus on Davey is a big distraction from the bastards in the PO - the management, PR, legal, enforcement, IT. They are who we should be focusing on. How can we make sure they get screwed. EDIT And Fujitsu
I’m banging on about this but, speaking as a lawyer, the lawyers should be hung out to dry. The withholding of evidence was against the basic duties we are taught on day 1.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
‘William Glenn’ v3.2 must go. And go now.
Everyone should resign. Including 3 billion of the @SeanT s
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
I would like to see mass resignations. Starting with @Casino_Royale whose finger pointing is a transparent cack-handed attempt at misdirection. @williamglenn, automatic troll bot, is long overdue another reboot. I assume a green authoritarian misanthropist in the @SandyRentool vein is next up? But he must go and go now. I will fall on my sword only when these two ludicrous imposters have departed the stage.
If they go you can celebrate by spending a wedge of cash on a slap up Greggs.
Why would you wish that fate on me?
I had my late lunch at the Gregg's on the Pershore by pass yesterday. Mmmm, egg mayonnaise filling between shoe leather.
Comments
*) Bigot-gate in 2010; I think it was late afternoon/early evening, and I'd just completed a walk in the Dorset area. I came down off the hills, got in my car, turned on the news and started howling with laughter.
*) A day or so after GE 2010, wild (illegal) camping in a field somewhere in the Dorset area, listening late into the night about the various options for coalition governments to be formed. It's amazing that people thought the 'rainbow coalition' would ever have worked...
And go now.
(More likely, nobody told an absolute black is white lie, but there was a chain where every level told their manager that a darker grey was a paler grey. Another reason to prefer smaller organisations with shorter chains of command.)
Needless to say, the population in the Houthi controlled part of Yemen has reacted angrily to what has happened but that won't bother Washington or London too much. The strategic importance of the Bab-al-Mandab strait and the economic consequences of an oil price shock on already struggling economies (there was talk of a street party lovally to celebrate the 0.3% growth in November but we all realised it was too cold and we couldn't afford it).
As to where we go from here, it depends on what the Houthi leadership decide. The problem is the anger of the population will likely re-enforce a radical position rather than one which recognises the infirmity of their situation. I suspect it won't be long before American warplanes are over Sana'a again.
Very HQ footage of Annie Nightingale interviewing German singer Nina Hagen in 1979, (incidentally Angela Merkel's favourite pop star, apparently).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47wOEl2BkiQ
On a serious note - how do we stop lying to ministers? Rory Stewart, in his book recounted a long running series of lies to cover up a screw up. Other ex-ministers have put similar things in their memoirs. Hillsborough and the Chinook crash come to mind as well.
2. The new system detected massive fraud.
3. Bonuses and congratulations all round, they put the fraudsters in prison.
4. Oh sh!t, this new system was producing bollocks instead of accounts.
Catching up on today's thread and have just watched Davey's ITV interview and it was a car crash and so embarrassing
I cannot understand why he couldn't just say sorry, but his prevarication is damaging him and it will follow him all the way to the election especially if the sub post mistress carries out her threat to stand against him in GE24
Politics is tough, and I think a wise word in his ear would be advisable if the Lib Dems do not want this to overshadow their election campaign
It turns out that Annie Nightingale was 83, about two decades older that I thought she was!
RIP, off to spin the decks in Heaven. No, not that gay nightclub in Charing Cross.
Rough answer, I suspect, is that it works for them better than always telling the truth. So we need to fix that. Which is some mixture of:
Increasing the punishment for lying.
Increasing the probability of being caught if you do tell a lie.
Reducing the penalty for telling uncomfortable truths.
My suspicion is that the last is where the best answer is. But I don't know how to get there. Indeed, with the rise of gotcha soundbite politics, we're probably further away than ever.
Politicians made some mistakes, from which we and they could learn if only the pitiful party political pass-the-blame-parcel game playing would stop. But I don’t think any of them knew that much about the system’s weaknesses and flaws at the time.
What would blow the inquiry open is if someone senior in the PO at the time says they were pressured by government to give the contract to ICL, who were very nearly excluded altogether from the process. The way in which they were added back to the shortlist at the actual board meeting itself, and then went on to be chosen, seems a bit suspect to me. But much of the relevant evidence has already been given, and even if this wild theory has any legs, I’m not convinced anyone would actually come clean. Even if they did, it would be a different scandal, since no-one could have foreseen what lay ahead.
What is more mystifying is the lengths to which the 2019 government went to smooth Vennells’s exit from the PO, her name already tarnished and the scandal already in plain sight. Giving her an honour and a cabinet office directorship and an NHS trust chairmanship, as well as the two commercial non-exec positions she picked up, suggests to me that she was very well connected and being looked after by powerful friends.
EDIT And Fujitsu
Anyone seriously believing that these raids degraded the capabilities of the Houthi rebels in any material sense has simply not being paying attention to the disasters in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, to name a few. It was a bizarre step. Lethal counterbattery attacks on anyone firing at ships would have worked so much better.
For some reason, I credit this site with having intelligent participants, who read what people
post and debate with intellectual honesty. Half of them seem to be lawyers or have some kind of flashy learned profession, so why do people just make stuff up?
I don't write the BBC, Times or Guardian articles.
You think they're all in on it?
Nowadays there must be some other opportunity in terms of the target acquisition radars, but even those need not be very large or complex to pick up big cargo ships, I suppose.
If by some miracle Sunak wins, 2024 (/5) will be like that on steroids. They won’t have a clue what to do next - since who in the Tory election and manifesto planning outfit has any reason to be doing any hard thinking about the country’s deep problems, right now?
In the name of God, go.
Despite our near self-reliance for oil, and close relationship with the stable and friendly Norway, our economy is still vulnerable to global energy markets. Increasing production in the North Sea would have a minuscule effect on oil prices in those markets.
To be fair, the same weakness applies to renewables in the short term. I was on a 100% renewable tariff yet Ukraine still smashed my energy bill.
In the long term, energy security in a WW3 scenario will come from 100% domestic renewable production of electricity, replacing our reliance on gas imports from Qatar. In terms of the energy markets, it will come from eroding the influence of our adversaries on those markets by encouraging renewables in Europe, USA, Canada...
However, there is a strong economic case for the NE. I have several friends employed in O&G from that part of Scotland. But that's a different argument.