Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.
Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.
It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.
But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.
"The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"
And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.
Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).
But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
Yes, it is all that.
Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.
With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.
And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
Until you forget to charge the battery...
I only have a tourer and a mountain bike, and neither are really suitable activities for bling gears which can't be fixed easily. Mrs Flatlander insisted on downtube shifters on her tourer, although they are indexed at least.
No doubt they are good for a fast blast, particularly if you've got a car with 6 bikes on the roof driving behind you.
Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told
Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.
"The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"
Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.
"The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"
How, why?
Hopefully one of our eminent lawyers can explain.
Ain't one of those, but do know that PO appeals were funded in large measure via funding provided by firm(s) or whatever specializing in that, in return (I think) for share of favorable monetary awards in cases so funded.
And that this isn't legal for technical reasons going forward . . . unless of course Parliament changes the law, to correct the crap drafting?
Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told
Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.
AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.
Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).
But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
Yes, it is all that.
Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.
With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.
And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
Interesting, thanks.
Does it need some sort of power? Do you recharge the shifters somehow? (I realise I could Google this).
I do wonder if it will succumb to similar flaws as hydraulic disc brakes, though; wonderful to use but temperamental then when it breaks it is tricky to fix by the roadside/at home.
I have liked my bikes fixable ever since I rode through South America and couldn’t ever get spare parts. I acknowledge that might not be an issue on the StP run, though.
Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told
Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.
AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
But Irish, you didn't come under starter's orders, did you?
Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.
Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.
It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.
But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.
Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told
Personally stand by my fearless prediction in this instance - as the ONLY respondent who said Davey would NOT be leader at next GE.
AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
But Irish, you didn't come under starter's orders, did you?
Ben P himself told me my "spoiled" ballot rehabilitated IF any of my predictions pan out.
Justice of sorts, served chilled with a lukewarm cup of sick?
Either he gives an answer and apology in the next week or so or the clamour gets stronger. I don't think media interest will die back and with the enquiry running all year I cannot see the scrutiny fading. It will hobble his campaign plan.
After some hints of better polls for the Conservatives, today's crop has been the equivalent of being slapped in the face with a cold wet haddock.
Three polls (YouGov, Techne and We Think) all having the Conservatives below 25% and Labour back to around 45%. That equates to a 16-17% swing from Labour to Conservative and a comfortable landslide of Starmer and the equivalent of going straight from 1987 to 1997 without another election between.
Little evidence as yet of any serious cut through from the Post Office scandal. Perhaps most people have decided everyone has to take a bit of the blame. I now see even Tony Blair was told of possible problems with Horizon way back in 1998. It really has been a disaster thirty years in the making.
And for all you cycling lovers: electronic shifting, OMG.
Is it really all that? I've always seen it as one of the perennial ways to try to over-commodify cycling with useless inventions cf Rapha bike clothing; titanium frames, diamong encrusted brake callipers (electric bikes being the exception).
But the tech nerd in me is drawn to it.
Yes, it is all that.
Mechanical shifting is a pain. It's never as quick as it could be. And it frequently (no matter how often you adjust it) ends up between gears.
With my new AXS wireless shifters, changing is instant and it's always absolutely spot on. You click and you're in your new gear. And it's exact. And it's exact every shift.
And I have the absolute cheapest gravel bike (1x11) setup on my hybrid. So while it was expensive, it wasn't utterly ridiculous.
Interesting, thanks.
Does it need some sort of power? Do you recharge the shifters somehow? (I realise I could Google this).
I do wonder if it will succumb to similar flaws as hydraulic disc brakes, though; wonderful to use but temperamental then when it breaks it is tricky to fix by the roadside/at home.
I have liked my bikes fixable ever since I rode through South America and couldn’t ever get spare parts. I acknowledge that might not be an issue on the StP run, though.
I am not a massive fan of disk brakes: great stopping power, but the application of them feels... uneven compared to traditional brakes.
So, the handlebar shifters have a little coin shaped battery (I believe) that lasts forever.
For the rear derailleur, it's a small removable, rechargeable battery, that lasts for 24-100 hours of riding (depending on how much you change gear). People going on long rides tend to a second with them.
The politico that yours truly most wants to see walk the plank, preferably sooner than later, and with a big splash either way, is New Jersey US Senator Bob Menendez (D-Qatar).
Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.
Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.
It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.
But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.
Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.
Not THAT's football!
I think it was colleges originally - what became the Ivy League codified it. A bit like proper football starting out with public schools it later became the working man's game of middle America. Though baseball was the dominant sport until the 60s and 70s - as it made for better television. So relatively recent in historic terms.
But it was in its early days much more of a running game so was much more conducive to being played in bad weather and being the winter game. Which in the North Eastern college towns and Mid Western cities in which it really took off early, meant playing in some brutally freezing conditions sometimes. And is less of an issue if you're mainly running the ball rather than trying to set up elaborate plays, as now, which are easier in perfect weather.
Either he gives an answer and apology in the next week or so or the clamour gets stronger. I don't think media interest will die back and with the enquiry running all year I cannot see the scrutiny fading. It will hobble his campaign plan.
He can't very well keep up the "poor me" act without it becoming even more pathetic.
Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.
Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.
It is forecast to be 0F at arrowhead Sunday. Poor Tua, he grew up with 18C January lows in Honolulu !
True. However, head up to Mauna Kea and it's possible to get frostbite any month of the year.
But doubt there's a football field up there. Ditto badminton court.
It's extraordinarily cold for any sort of sporting match to take place. Doubtless the Chiefs faithful will love it. I expect "Tua cold for you" to come out similar to Tua's frozen Buffalo matches
American football has its beginnings the American rust belt - which is also American snow belt.
Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.
Not THAT's football!
I think it was colleges originally - what became the Ivy League codified it. A bit like proper football starting out with public schools it later became the working man's game of middle America. Though baseball was the dominant sport until the 60s and 70s - as it made for better television. So relatively recent in historic terms.
But it was in its early days much more of a running game so was much more conducive to being played in bad weather and being the winter game. Which in the North Eastern college towns and Mid Western cities in which it really took off early, meant playing in some brutally freezing conditions sometimes. And is less of an issue if you're mainly running the ball rather than trying to set up elaborate plays, as now, which are easier in perfect weather.
Yes. What I meant to say, was that American PROFESSIONAL football got started in rust/snow belt.
Which is big reason the Football Hall of Fame is located in Canton, Ohio. Which back in 1920s was home of the famed Canton Bulldogs. At a time when some high school teams there, and some other Mid-west cities, could give the pros some trouble between the goal posts.
This was era when Notre Dame emerged as powerhouse in college football, challenging then displacing the boys of the Ivy League. And when Jim Thorpe was THE big star of the pro game.
When my father was himself a boy, he used to see newsreels that featured an aging Thorpe doing his signature trick at half-time: standing on the 50-yard line and kicking a field goal in one direction . . . then turning 180 degrees and kicking a field goal in the other direction . . . regardless of which way and how much the wind was blowing.
Hey Ben. Is there any correlation between those calling for Davey to resign and those who had someone other than Davey as LD leader at the election in the predictions competition? Or vice versa of course. Are his strongest defenders those with something to lose in PB bragging rights if he goes? I think we should be told
No correlation, sadly, fun though that would be.
Every current leader had at least one prediction of demise - except Ed Davey. All 81 entries to the predictions competition had Davey leading the LDs into the next GE.
TSE has a short header from me which will hopefully show and link to a spreadie of all the entries, but there have been quite a few excellent and topical headers this week, so I am sure it will appear whenever there is a lull.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.
We await the results of the Letby and PO inquiries to see if the managers involved to face more severe sanctions
The problem HY is it will be the little people who are punished. That is why I think we were so excited that politicians of Davy and Starmer's stature may end up serving jail time.
My mother died as part of the Princess of Wales Hospital neglect saga. Two Filipino nurses were given custodial sentences. The Hospital managers received no sanction. Many remain in post a dozen years later.
This sort of thing is what’s behind @Malmesbury’s thinking, that those taking the large pay cheques appear to be unable to be held to account for their failures; and on the rare occasions when they do resign, they usually take a large payout and pop up in a similar (or better!) high-paid job a few months later. None of them ever get ‘struck off’ the management grades, in the same way as often happens to those on the front line.
Hospital managers are not on “large pay cheques” however.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.
I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
Edit: FPT So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are: Keir Starmer Paula Vennels Keir Starmer Ed Davey Keir Starmer Horizon Keir Starmer Labour politicians Keir Starmer Lib Dem politicians Keir Starmer Lawyers Keir Starmer
Tony Blair Keir Starmer Peter Mandelson Keir Starmer
The innocent people are: Rishi Sunak Conservative Politicians Sub Postmasters Have I got that right?
Storm Henk being the new officer in charge of UK Border Police?
While Storm Henk has no doubt played a significant role recent role, it's worth digging into the numbers on people crossing the channel by small boats.
Back in 2022, Albanians were almost 30% of all the people making in the crossing. In the second half of 2023, they were under 10%. So - sure - weather probably played a role. But the biggest impact by far was the fact that Albanians no longer saw small boats as a sensible way to get into the UK.
Indeed. It was a significant success. And it was achieved by bilateral negotiation with Albania, rather than by threatening Rwanda or other madcap schemes. Yet the Tories don’t want to talk about trying for more bilateral deals.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.
I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for
People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.
I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for
People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.
Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
Thanks that works. Although reading the article I almost wish it hadn't and I remained ignorant of yet another travesty being allowed by the Government.
Frustratingly, I remain ignorant of exactly what the issue is.
"The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"
How, why?
Hopefully one of our eminent lawyers can explain.
Ain't one of those, but do know that PO appeals were funded in large measure via funding provided by firm(s) or whatever specializing in that, in return (I think) for share of favorable monetary awards in cases so funded.
And that this isn't legal for technical reasons going forward . . . unless of course Parliament changes the law, to correct the crap drafting?
Mr Bates is overstating the impact of that PACCAR case on the litigation financing industry in the UK. All that case did was determine that collective action claims cannot be funded through a structure whereby the provider of the financing receives a percentage of the damages. Cases funded in that way are considered to be 'Damages Based Agreements' and as such are required to comply with certain regulations which were not drafted with litigation financing in mind. The impact of the case is simply that litigation funding agreements are now structured in other ways, typically where the funder receives a multiple of the capital it invests.
Edit: FPT So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are: Keir Starmer Paula Vennels Keir Starmer Ed Davey Keir Starmer Horizon Keir Starmer Labour politicians Keir Starmer Lib Dem politicians Keir Starmer Lawyers Keir Starmer
Tony Blair Keir Starmer Peter Mandelson Keir Starmer
The innocent people are: Rishi Sunak Conservative Politicians Sub Postmasters Have I got that right?
I'd only give you 50/50 on the sub-postmasters. Some of them sounded a bit foreign so are basically guilty.
This is what happens when you promote Constable Savage to the board. Promoted before you give him a knighthood too.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.
So bollocks to hindsight.
Pure Whataboutery.
New Labour knew there were issues, approved it, deployed it, experienced mass prosecutions and never thought to even re-ask the most basic of questions about this?
Flying from very small regional airports with no hold luggage is very convenient. You can get a taxi or lift to the front door and arrive at the airport 10 mins before boarding time. The whole thing gets ruined as soon as the airport starts growing in size and Ryanair etc arrive.
As long as the tide is right. This little gem has more scheduled flights than the whole of North Korea:
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
It all does come back to what the Post Office senior management were telling everyone.
I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
Davey might have to resign if the story becomes too much about him. I think he’d be unlucky, but luck plays a bigger part in things than people credit it for
People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
I've changed my mind following that weasel interview where he refused to say sorry 10 times, and just blamed the Post Office.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
While this is troubling, there is a great distance between going ahead with a flawed technical system and knowingly using those flaws to put people into prison when you know they may well be innocent.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.
Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
Exactly.
As with Watergate, it wasn't the break in which finished Nixon but the cover up.
The problem this week has been trying to make a cheap political point or damage opponents (guilty as charged) has been used by all sides to hide the actual unvarnished which has been a prolonged and sustained cover up of a catastrophic syatem implementation.
The remaining questions are really why no one in the Post Office at very senior level either understood or realised what was going on and why they seemingly colluded in this cover up. Indeed, the longer it went on the more extreme the denial of any problem seemed to get and the more severe the action against anyone (politician, journalist or insider) who started asking questions or getting close to the truth.
"Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.
The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:
Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.
par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."
Speaking of cold, it is 21 degrees Fahrenheit (-6 Celsius) on my humble porch right now.
Coldest its been in these parts (in the lowlands that is) for some time.
It's -5C here just now and my boiler has conked out twice today. Glad for the two different boiler services I've had recently that keep it in tip-top order.
Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
I was in an old people's home in East Anglia. It was by some distance the most exciting thing that happened there all year.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
I think that threatened closures were a significant part of the problem.
I think there was political pressure to pay pensions and benefits via sub post offices to keep them viable, rather than by direct bank transfer.
Your post has reminded me of one of those 'I remember where I was when...' monents:
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
You couldn't believe she'd been PM in the first place? You and me both...
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories, and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
I've been doing a commute recently on certain mornings from Finland to London. Leave from a local airport around 5.30 getting to London before 9, with a connecting flight. I can get in to the office at the same time as my colleagues who have no idea how I got to work. The 2 hour time difference helps.
Everton striker Arnaud Danjuma apparently gets the plane to training each day from his home in Manchester!
I still can’t believe what happened to those postmasters actually did happen.
Why did the people at Fujitsu tell them they were the only ones complaining?
Why did the fact dozens of postmasters were calling in to find out why they were so far wrong in their figures not trigger someone to look at the system?
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Mandy still is, although I suppose he’s not technically a politician
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
I admit that I’ve not been following your posts today but your determination to blame SKS alone for this prior to today was noted by many other than me.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Mandy still is, although I suppose he’s not technically a politician
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
The current government received almost exactly that warning regarding the Fujitsu system for the Foreign Office. Which they've nonetheless ordered - and which has yet to be delivered.
So bollocks to hindsight.
Pure Whataboutery.
New Labour knew there were issues, approved it, deployed it, experienced mass prosecutions and never thought to even re-ask the most basic of questions about this?
A massive failing of government.
It's pointing out that the current government has recently made almost exactly the same procurement decision you're criticising Blair's administration for. With Fujitsu. Again.
I've no interest in defending Blair's administration - they were, after all, the ones who put in place the rules of evidence regarding computer systems - but the current government clearly doesn't think the procurement itself was a mistake.
I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
Edit: FPT So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are: Keir Starmer Paula Vennels Keir Starmer Ed Davey Keir Starmer Horizon Keir Starmer Labour politicians Keir Starmer Lib Dem politicians Keir Starmer Lawyers Keir Starmer
Tony Blair Keir Starmer Peter Mandelson Keir Starmer
The innocent people are: Rishi Sunak Conservative Politicians Sub Postmasters Have I got that right?
You forgot the Home Secs passim for screwing up the justice system.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
I admit that I’ve not been following your posts today but your determination to blame SKS alone for this prior to today was noted by many other than me.
That just shows that they weren’t reading what I wrote either. You’re in a 1970s supergroup ft Paul Rodgers.
I didn’t blame Sir Keir once. I said that it would disable his “I was Director of Public Prosecutions” White Knight schtick, time & again, and I think it will. He’s already riding back on his previous boasts.
But that’s not blaming him for the miscarriages of justice, because they’re obviously not his fault
Storm Henk being the new officer in charge of UK Border Police?
While Storm Henk has no doubt played a significant role recent role, it's worth digging into the numbers on people crossing the channel by small boats.
Back in 2022, Albanians were almost 30% of all the people making in the crossing. In the second half of 2023, they were under 10%. So - sure - weather probably played a role. But the biggest impact by far was the fact that Albanians no longer saw small boats as a sensible way to get into the UK.
Indeed. It was a significant success. And it was achieved by bilateral negotiation with Albania, rather than by threatening Rwanda or other madcap schemes. Yet the Tories don’t want to talk about trying for more bilateral deals.
This rather captures the terrible politics of Rwanda. If he'd have been brave when standing for leader post-Truss, Sunak could have kept Braverman sacked, ditched Rwanda as impractical nonsense, and pitched it as one of his difficult decisions made by a government returning to a more grown-up approach that would actually solve the problem. Then looked to do the kind of deals like the Albanian one that would get real reductions. Finally, put some harder line stuff in the manifesto asking voters to let him 'finish the job'.
Instead he tied himself to the nutters in his party, and a madcap scheme even Reform criticise as costly and impractical. Meaning that any successes are completely overshadowed, and he's in a mess on an issue that should be home turf for a right-wing Tory leader.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:
.
So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
I'm interested in everyone involved taking accountability and responsibility.
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
Like who? For example, as a noted fan of anyone but the Tories. and the board’s “most partisan” poster (TM) (sorry HYUFD), I’ve been clear in the past that I think a lot, if not most, of the blame lies with the law firms instructed by the PO, like Womble Bond Dickinson and Cartwright King. Cyclefree and many others have passed blame about widely. Only you and Isam appear absolutely absolutely determined to make this a purely party political issue. Even HYUFD has been more even.
How have I made it a purely party political issue? Do you read what people write or just invent what suits you?
You did (I believe) write that you wanted to "bash" Starmer a day or two ago.
Another false claim. That was James O’Brien, and I stand by it
"Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.
The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:
Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.
par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."
"Andy Dunks used to be an Information Technology Security Analyst at Fujitsu. He was a witness in the Horizon Issues trial and provided a witness statement in the prosecution of former Subpostmaster Sarah Burgess-Boyde in 2010. Mr Justice Fraser found that Dunks “expressly sought to mislead” him in court, which is serious.
The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:
Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.
par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."
I still can’t believe what happened to those postmasters actually did happen.
Why did the people at Fujitsu tell them they were the only ones complaining?
Why did the fact dozens of postmasters were calling in to find out why they were so far wrong in their figures not trigger someone to look at the system?
The investigators were making lots of money in bonuses The managers at the PO were giving each other bonuses. The PO was getting a pile of money extorted from the SPMs The lawyers had lots of lovely court cases
When they began to realise - who was going to announce the world “we are a bunch of thick shits”?
Much easier to lie and try and cover it up and hope it all went away.
What’s not to like? Who was going to be the party pooper?
“it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
Like I posted earlier, that isn't true of our voters.
Unless he comes clean and kills the story very soon it will dog us all year. I like Davey and have voted twice for him to be our leader, but we have to put party ahead of personalities. He can be very useful still if Cooper was leader.
I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
The original misjudgment was not a resigning matter: he was entitled to take the PO at face value.
The utter ineptitude with which he has handled it this month might prove to be a different matter.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
While this is troubling, there is a great distance between going ahead with a flawed technical system and knowingly using those flaws to put people into prison when you know they may well be innocent.
It is absolutely zero surprise that that slimy slug went into bat for Fujistsu. Why he and his type of politician (hello Osborne) who can't see someone wealthy and powerful without getting a moist upper lip are feted here is a mystery. The cult of 'dull competence'.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
I have always, ever since I started being a litigator, sent draft statements to clients and said firmly “this has to be in your words, if there is anything in this you feel uncomfortable saying out loud if you had to, any legalese you don’t understand, anything wrong at all, then change it”. The basic shit I’m reading about in the PO Inquiry here makes me cringe. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
Also, there's the shift from "didn't have the foresight to predict how badly it would go" via "ignored the flashing red warning lights" to "told outright lies". The first is tragic but inevitable, the second isn't a good sign but possibly forgivable, the last is profoundly culpable.
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
Do you think there are politicians who knew the truth and kept schtum?
Probably not, at least before the first convictions were overturned in the courts.
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
It does look like this scandal had absolutely nothing to do with the Conservative Party.
Joking aside, clearly politicians from all parties were involved, but by the nature of power, mostly Conservative and LD. Few New Labour politicians from that era who were involved are still politically active simply because of the passage of time.
There is an inevitability that in election year GBNews, the Mail, Express, and the Telegraph will report Opposition culpability and ignore any Government errors. Interestingly both the Independent and the BBC are also piling in on Labour and the LDs.
Badenoch's invisibility has been startling, although tbf she has more important matters to deal with like Tory Party leadership succession.
Also it might be a pedantic point, but it's significant that Davey says he wished he "could have" done more rather than saying he wished he "had" done more. He sees himself as a passive victim of the Post Office's lies.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
What about leader of the Liberal Democrats though?
I'd be amazed if the LDs go into the next general election with Ed Davey as leader.
I wouldn't - there's no appetite in the Party to remove him whatsoever.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
The original misjudgment was not a resigning matter: he was entitled to take the PO at face value.
The utter ineptitude with which he has handled it this month might prove to be a different matter.
"C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute."
Let me be first to note that whatever Ed Davie did or rather didn't, is NOT in same league as the murder of duc d'Enghein.
I have always, ever since I started being a litigator, sent draft statements to clients and said firmly “this has to be in your words, if there is anything in this you feel uncomfortable saying out loud if you had to, any legalese you don’t understand, anything wrong at all, then change it”. The basic shit I’m reading about in the PO Inquiry here makes me cringe. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic.
Part of growing older is realising that the people at the very top are often crappier than yourself. In their professed trade.
I sat open mouthed as the software process for the Boeing Starliner spacecraft was described. Badly designed, implemented and tested. By avionics engineers who were supposed to be on top of their game.
Comments
"The judgment — on a technical challenge brought by a group formerly found to be cartelists and seeking to exploit poorly drafted legislation — makes litigation funding almost impossible in the UK"
How, why?
I only have a tourer and a mountain bike, and neither are really suitable activities for bling gears which can't be fixed easily. Mrs Flatlander insisted on downtube shifters on her tourer, although they are indexed at least.
No doubt they are good for a fast blast, particularly if you've got a car with 6 bikes on the roof driving behind you.
Assholes.
Aides have been ready for the attacks since 2019
One warns Sunak against targeting pasts or "voters will get to hear about him betting against Britain in the City"
[@thetimes]
https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1745858914522960319?s=20
And that this isn't legal for technical reasons going forward . . . unless of course Parliament changes the law, to correct the crap drafting?
AND yours truly did predict that a well-known activist woman would replace him, leastways in part.
Does it need some sort of power? Do you recharge the shifters somehow? (I realise I could Google this).
I do wonder if it will succumb to similar flaws as hydraulic disc brakes, though; wonderful to use but temperamental then when it breaks it is tricky to fix by the roadside/at home.
I have liked my bikes fixable ever since I rode through South America and couldn’t ever get spare parts. I acknowledge that might not be an issue on the StP run, though.
Nothing better, at least in sporting theory, legend & lore, than a game played in the middle of a blizzard, with ground crew shoveling the field after every other down, temperature dropping by the minute, wind picking up . . . and some bare-chested true-fanatic howling up in the stands among spectators who appear to have come to game via dogsled.
Not THAT's football!
Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show
A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".
But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.
Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.
In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495
"Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495
Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.
Justice of sorts, served chilled with a lukewarm cup of sick?
After some hints of better polls for the Conservatives, today's crop has been the equivalent of being slapped in the face with a cold wet haddock.
Three polls (YouGov, Techne and We Think) all having the Conservatives below 25% and Labour back to around 45%. That equates to a 16-17% swing from Labour to Conservative and a comfortable landslide of Starmer and the equivalent of going straight from 1987 to 1997 without another election between.
Little evidence as yet of any serious cut through from the Post Office scandal. Perhaps most people have decided everyone has to take a bit of the blame. I now see even Tony Blair was told of possible problems with Horizon way back in 1998. It really has been a disaster thirty years in the making.
So, the handlebar shifters have a little coin shaped battery (I believe) that lasts forever.
For the rear derailleur, it's a small removable, rechargeable battery, that lasts for 24-100 hours of riding (depending on how much you change gear). People going on long rides tend to a second with them.
Speaking as a Democrat that is.
But it was in its early days much more of a running game so was much more conducive to being played in bad weather and being the winter game. Which in the North Eastern college towns and Mid Western cities in which it really took off early, meant playing in some brutally freezing conditions sometimes. And is less of an issue if you're mainly running the ball rather than trying to set up elaborate plays, as now, which are easier in perfect weather.
https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745885562953678974?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
Which is big reason the Football Hall of Fame is located in Canton, Ohio. Which back in 1920s was home of the famed Canton Bulldogs. At a time when some high school teams there, and some other Mid-west cities, could give the pros some trouble between the goal posts.
This was era when Notre Dame emerged as powerhouse in college football, challenging then displacing the boys of the Ivy League. And when Jim Thorpe was THE big star of the pro game.
When my father was himself a boy, he used to see newsreels that featured an aging Thorpe doing his signature trick at half-time: standing on the 50-yard line and kicking a field goal in one direction . . . then turning 180 degrees and kicking a field goal in the other direction . . . regardless of which way and how much the wind was blowing.
Every current leader had at least one prediction of demise - except Ed Davey. All 81 entries to the predictions competition had Davey leading the LDs into the next GE.
TSE has a short header from me which will hopefully show and link to a spreadie of all the entries, but there have been quite a few excellent and topical headers this week, so I am sure it will appear whenever there is a lull.
I’m sure ministers of all parties over 20 years wish we could have done more to expose the Post Office’s lies and stop this appalling miscarriage of justice.
This was a criminal conspiracy on a grand scale against sub-postmasters, ministers and the public.
https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/1745820942624817604?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
So bollocks to hindsight.
I'm sure you'd agree there's no reason for Davey, Starmer or any of the many Conservatives who had responsibility for this to resign - I mean, who recommended Paula Vennells for a CBE in 2019?
So, let me get this right. The guilty people in the Post Office scandal are:
Keir Starmer
Paula Vennels
Keir Starmer
Ed Davey
Keir Starmer
Horizon
Keir Starmer
Labour politicians
Keir Starmer
Lib Dem politicians
Keir Starmer
Lawyers
Keir Starmer
Tony Blair
Keir Starmer
Peter Mandelson
Keir Starmer
The innocent people are:
Rishi Sunak
Conservative Politicians
Sub Postmasters
Have I got that right?
People should only really resign over this if they knew that the Post Office and Fujitsu were corrupt and didn’t do anything about it. No politician seems to fit that criteria
Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.
The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.
The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.
Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the same could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.
He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.
WTAF !? He knew it was flawed but it was only sensible to do it, because they're an investor?
Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
This is what happens when you promote Constable Savage to the board. Promoted before you give him a knighthood too.
New Labour knew there were issues, approved it, deployed it, experienced mass prosecutions and never thought to even re-ask the most basic of questions about this?
A massive failing of government.
https://www.hial.co.uk/barra-airport
But there are far too many on here who want it to only be about the Tories.
The man has to go.
I was in Blandford Forum Travis Perkins on 18 April 2017 to pick up some bits of timber when I looked up at the TV screen to see Theresa May stood in front of No 10 calling a General Election. Couldn't believe it at first.
As with Watergate, it wasn't the break in which finished Nixon but the cover up.
The problem this week has been trying to make a cheap political point or damage opponents (guilty as charged) has been used by all sides to hide the actual unvarnished which has been a prolonged and sustained cover up of a catastrophic syatem implementation.
The remaining questions are really why no one in the Post Office at very senior level either understood or realised what was going on and why they seemingly colluded in this cover up. Indeed, the longer it went on the more extreme the denial of any problem seemed to get and the more severe the action against anyone (politician, journalist or insider) who started asking questions or getting close to the truth.
The context was specifically to do with the boilerplate witness statements produced by Fujitsu to aid Post Office prosecutions. Fraser said:
Mr Dunks expressly sought to mislead me by stating that there was no “Fujitsu party line” when it came to the contents of drafting witness statements about audit records for legal proceedings. There plainly is; it was used in the Fujitsu statements in 2010 and it was used by him in his statement for the Horizon Issues trial.
par 294, Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”, Bates and others v Post Office
I wonder what he’ll come up with when it comes to giving evidence, again under oath, to the Inquiry."
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/inquiry-re-start-preview/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O24T0TmoVc
I think there was political pressure to pay pensions and benefits via sub post offices to keep them viable, rather than by direct bank transfer.
Hence Horizon.
Perhaps @SeaShantyIrish2 will be shown to be the master after all.
No wonder we're skint.
Why did the people at Fujitsu tell them they were the only ones complaining?
Why did the fact dozens of postmasters were calling in to find out why they were so far wrong in their figures not trigger someone to look at the system?
With Fujitsu. Again.
I've no interest in defending Blair's administration - they were, after all, the ones who put in place the rules of evidence regarding computer systems - but the current government clearly doesn't think the procurement itself was a mistake.
Call me a bluff old cynic but presumably if he does quit and Daisy Cooper takes over, her character assassination will begin five minutes later.
This is not a resigning matter - you know it, I know it, the only ones trying to make any political capital out of this are those who want to weaken the LDs in the hope it saves 20-30 Conservative MPs.
How can he credibly present himself as a candidate for high office?
I didn’t blame Sir Keir once. I said that it would
disable his “I was Director of Public Prosecutions” White Knight schtick, time & again, and I think it will. He’s already riding back on his previous boasts.
But that’s not blaming him for the
miscarriages of justice, because they’re obviously not his fault
Instead he tied himself to the nutters in his party, and a madcap scheme even Reform criticise as costly and impractical. Meaning that any successes are completely overshadowed, and he's in a mess on an issue that should be home turf for a right-wing Tory leader.
The managers at the PO were giving each other bonuses.
The PO was getting a pile of money extorted from the SPMs
The lawyers had lots of lovely court cases
When they began to realise - who was going to announce the world “we are a bunch of thick shits”?
Much easier to lie and try and cover it up and hope it all went away.
What’s not to like? Who was going to be the party pooper?
“it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Wasn't the key Watergate question "who knew what and when did they know it?"
Unless he comes clean and kills the story very soon it will dog us all year. I like Davey and have voted twice for him to be our leader, but we have to put party ahead of personalities. He can be very useful still if Cooper was leader.
The utter ineptitude with which he has handled it this month might prove to be a different matter.
Sir Keir Royale.
Sir Ted Gravy.
Jumpers for goalposts.
In God’s name go.
And go now.
Badenoch's invisibility has been startling, although tbf she has more important matters to deal with like Tory Party leadership succession.
Let me be first to note that whatever Ed Davie did or rather didn't, is NOT in same league as the murder of duc d'Enghein.
Nevertheless . . .
I sat open mouthed as the software process for the Boeing Starliner spacecraft was described. Badly designed, implemented and tested. By avionics engineers who were supposed to be on top of their game.