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Brexiteers, you may need a stiff drink – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,764
edited July 2023 in General
Brexiteers, you may need a stiff drink – politicalbetting.com

At some point Westminster will need to engage with the fact we’re going to have to change the axis on this chart to fit in the % that think Brexit is having a negative impact pic.twitter.com/f7N5dD1WpQ

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  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,833
    First like Novax??
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,469
    Re-posted from end of previous thread - responding to @NickPalmer

    I read an article recently (New Statesman, I think) which stated that Labour's top people are haunted by the fate of Francois Hollande. A dull stolid "safe pair of hands" who was elected after a lengthy period of increasingly turbulent conservative government (Chirac/Sarkozy). In the event his attempt to steer a middle course pleased no-one and by the end of his term the Socialists had tanked to the extent that he didn't even attempt re-election.

    How does Starmer avoid a similar fate? The solution, apparently, is to deliver for Labour's core vote, and sod the rest. That, at least, avoids complete meltdown. Therefore a Starmer Govt may be more radical and left-wing than we think. And more aggressive in dealing with interest groups which are not naturally pro-Labour (pensioners, for instance.)

    Not sure I agree, but it's an interesting take.

    Whatever, no matter how large the majority next year, the succeeding election will be no walk-over for Labour as it was for Blair in 2001. Part of the voter coalition is bound to peel off.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603
    FPT

    eek said:

    Is it me or is every single Government decision I've seen in the past month a scorched earth policy of destroying or starting things now so they can't be reversed.

    We have rail ticket offices being closed, pay offers without any money to pay for them and insane road schemes like £1.7bn round stonehenge. When even in the height of summer the road isn't that bad and doesn't go close anymore..

    Of course. They’re salting the earth. Two minutes into a Labour government (Dear God please let it be a Labour government. Or a Lab/Lib coalition) the Tories and their media shills will be attacking Labour for everything being shit, even though it’s all their fault. That’s politics, I suppose.

    Heard Badenoch on the radio earlier, lauding this Pacific rimming bullshit the government have signed us up to, which is forecast to add a mighty 0.08% to the economy over the next decade. Wittering on about an expanding market of 500m people. She was saying it’s up to British businesses to make it work, otherwise the puny economic benefit will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So all the countless businesses and industries that are suffering because of leaving the EU, and that huge, rich market on our doorstep, that market we get shit tons of food from - which will become markedly more expensive from October - all they have to do is trade with fucking Indonesia or some such bollocks. It’s insane.

    The Tories know it’s insane. But they’re salting the earth, making it harder for the next government to tack back towards the EU.

    It’s government by swivel-eyed ideologue fucking mentalists. They’re impoverishing the country and they don’t give a flying fuck.
    Also- if/when Brexit is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for not deserving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted on doing a damn silly thing in a damn silly way.
    This works the other way too: if/when the EU is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for leaving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted.... etc, etc.
    Brexit is already agreed to be a fiasco though, no if/when about it.

    Of course, not by 100%, but nothing is, not the moon landings nor evolution.
    I'm not sure this is true. Even harsh critics of it like Adam Posen are subtly backing away from their previous positions.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    FPT

    eek said:

    Is it me or is every single Government decision I've seen in the past month a scorched earth policy of destroying or starting things now so they can't be reversed.

    We have rail ticket offices being closed, pay offers without any money to pay for them and insane road schemes like £1.7bn round stonehenge. When even in the height of summer the road isn't that bad and doesn't go close anymore..

    Of course. They’re salting the earth. Two minutes into a Labour government (Dear God please let it be a Labour government. Or a Lab/Lib coalition) the Tories and their media shills will be attacking Labour for everything being shit, even though it’s all their fault. That’s politics, I suppose.

    Heard Badenoch on the radio earlier, lauding this Pacific rimming bullshit the government have signed us up to, which is forecast to add a mighty 0.08% to the economy over the next decade. Wittering on about an expanding market of 500m people. She was saying it’s up to British businesses to make it work, otherwise the puny economic benefit will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So all the countless businesses and industries that are suffering because of leaving the EU, and that huge, rich market on our doorstep, that market we get shit tons of food from - which will become markedly more expensive from October - all they have to do is trade with fucking Indonesia or some such bollocks. It’s insane.

    The Tories know it’s insane. But they’re salting the earth, making it harder for the next government to tack back towards the EU.

    It’s government by swivel-eyed ideologue fucking mentalists. They’re impoverishing the country and they don’t give a flying fuck.
    Also- if/when Brexit is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for not deserving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted on doing a damn silly thing in a damn silly way.
    This works the other way too: if/when the EU is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for leaving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted.... etc, etc.
    Brexit is already agreed to be a fiasco though, no if/when about it.

    Of course, not by 100%, but nothing is, not the moon landings nor evolution.
    I'm not sure this is true. Even harsh critics of it like Adam Posen are subtly backing away from their previous positions.
    I don’t think they are, no.
    But you do you.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,833
    Alcaraz breaks Novax in the second set - 2-0.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,239

    FPT

    eek said:

    Is it me or is every single Government decision I've seen in the past month a scorched earth policy of destroying or starting things now so they can't be reversed.

    We have rail ticket offices being closed, pay offers without any money to pay for them and insane road schemes like £1.7bn round stonehenge. When even in the height of summer the road isn't that bad and doesn't go close anymore..

    Of course. They’re salting the earth. Two minutes into a Labour government (Dear God please let it be a Labour government. Or a Lab/Lib coalition) the Tories and their media shills will be attacking Labour for everything being shit, even though it’s all their fault. That’s politics, I suppose.

    Heard Badenoch on the radio earlier, lauding this Pacific rimming bullshit the government have signed us up to, which is forecast to add a mighty 0.08% to the economy over the next decade. Wittering on about an expanding market of 500m people. She was saying it’s up to British businesses to make it work, otherwise the puny economic benefit will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So all the countless businesses and industries that are suffering because of leaving the EU, and that huge, rich market on our doorstep, that market we get shit tons of food from - which will become markedly more expensive from October - all they have to do is trade with fucking Indonesia or some such bollocks. It’s insane.

    The Tories know it’s insane. But they’re salting the earth, making it harder for the next government to tack back towards the EU.

    It’s government by swivel-eyed ideologue fucking mentalists. They’re impoverishing the country and they don’t give a flying fuck.
    Also- if/when Brexit is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for not deserving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted on doing a damn silly thing in a damn silly way.
    This works the other way too: if/when the EU is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for leaving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted.... etc, etc.
    Brexit is already agreed to be a fiasco though, no if/when about it.

    Of course, not by 100%, but nothing is, not the moon landings nor evolution.
    I'm not sure this is true. Even harsh critics of it like Adam Posen are subtly backing away from their previous positions.
    I don’t think they are, no.
    But you do you.
    Does you do or does you don't like Brexit?

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,521

    FPT

    eek said:

    Is it me or is every single Government decision I've seen in the past month a scorched earth policy of destroying or starting things now so they can't be reversed.

    We have rail ticket offices being closed, pay offers without any money to pay for them and insane road schemes like £1.7bn round stonehenge. When even in the height of summer the road isn't that bad and doesn't go close anymore..

    Of course. They’re salting the earth. Two minutes into a Labour government (Dear God please let it be a Labour government. Or a Lab/Lib coalition) the Tories and their media shills will be attacking Labour for everything being shit, even though it’s all their fault. That’s politics, I suppose.

    Heard Badenoch on the radio earlier, lauding this Pacific rimming bullshit the government have signed us up to, which is forecast to add a mighty 0.08% to the economy over the next decade. Wittering on about an expanding market of 500m people. She was saying it’s up to British businesses to make it work, otherwise the puny economic benefit will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So all the countless businesses and industries that are suffering because of leaving the EU, and that huge, rich market on our doorstep, that market we get shit tons of food from - which will become markedly more expensive from October - all they have to do is trade with fucking Indonesia or some such bollocks. It’s insane.

    The Tories know it’s insane. But they’re salting the earth, making it harder for the next government to tack back towards the EU.

    It’s government by swivel-eyed ideologue fucking mentalists. They’re impoverishing the country and they don’t give a flying fuck.
    Also- if/when Brexit is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for not deserving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted on doing a damn silly thing in a damn silly way.
    This works the other way too: if/when the EU is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for leaving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted.... etc, etc.
    Brexit is already agreed to be a fiasco though, no if/when about it.

    Of course, not by 100%, but nothing is, not the moon landings nor evolution.
    I'm not sure this is true. Even harsh critics of it like Adam Posen are subtly backing away from their previous positions.
    I don’t think they are, no.
    But you do you.
    This shop in Inverness (now closed) flatly offers a down to earth model for the future of Brexit campaigning.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@57.4785084,-4.2311338,3a,75y,156.34h,82.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8w22Ni5ETxDvZKfPzMY57g!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,521
    geoffw said:

    FPT

    eek said:

    Is it me or is every single Government decision I've seen in the past month a scorched earth policy of destroying or starting things now so they can't be reversed.

    We have rail ticket offices being closed, pay offers without any money to pay for them and insane road schemes like £1.7bn round stonehenge. When even in the height of summer the road isn't that bad and doesn't go close anymore..

    Of course. They’re salting the earth. Two minutes into a Labour government (Dear God please let it be a Labour government. Or a Lab/Lib coalition) the Tories and their media shills will be attacking Labour for everything being shit, even though it’s all their fault. That’s politics, I suppose.

    Heard Badenoch on the radio earlier, lauding this Pacific rimming bullshit the government have signed us up to, which is forecast to add a mighty 0.08% to the economy over the next decade. Wittering on about an expanding market of 500m people. She was saying it’s up to British businesses to make it work, otherwise the puny economic benefit will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So all the countless businesses and industries that are suffering because of leaving the EU, and that huge, rich market on our doorstep, that market we get shit tons of food from - which will become markedly more expensive from October - all they have to do is trade with fucking Indonesia or some such bollocks. It’s insane.

    The Tories know it’s insane. But they’re salting the earth, making it harder for the next government to tack back towards the EU.

    It’s government by swivel-eyed ideologue fucking mentalists. They’re impoverishing the country and they don’t give a flying fuck.
    Also- if/when Brexit is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for not deserving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted on doing a damn silly thing in a damn silly way.
    This works the other way too: if/when the EU is agreed to be a fiasco, it will be the fault of Britain for leaving it, rather than the fault of those who insisted.... etc, etc.
    Brexit is already agreed to be a fiasco though, no if/when about it.

    Of course, not by 100%, but nothing is, not the moon landings nor evolution.
    I'm not sure this is true. Even harsh critics of it like Adam Posen are subtly backing away from their previous positions.
    I don’t think they are, no.
    But you do you.
    Does you do or does you don't like Brexit?

    Getting boxed up, is he?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Brexit has been “better” than expected on immigration, about what was forecast for trade (ie bad), and much worse for inward investment.

    Sentiment turned against the UK in 2016 and is still completely underwater, especially after Johnson/Truss.

    One advantage Keir has is that his election in itself will likely be a turning point for global investor sentiment (not an overnight change, but a turning point).
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,278
    Goodwood Shootout, about to start.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=s1x2sVTm3EI
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    A majority may have backed Brexit, but Remainers have and will continue to control the leavers of cultural power and influence...
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,749
    Cookie said:

    A majority may have backed Brexit, but Remainers have and will continue to control the leavers of cultural power and influence...

    A Freudian slip? Levers?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
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    Smart51Smart51 Posts: 55
    It is becoming clear that the positives from Brexit cannot match the losses from leaving the EU. Britain will be worse off for as long as we stay as we are. But nothing will change while the people who fought the referendum are still involved in politics. We will need a new generation of MPs before we change direction, whichever way we go. Buckle in. Brexit has already cost us one decade. It'll cost us another before it's done.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Smart51 said:

    It is becoming clear that the positives from Brexit cannot match the losses from leaving the EU. Britain will be worse off for as long as we stay as we are. But nothing will change while the people who fought the referendum are still involved in politics. We will need a new generation of MPs before we change direction, whichever way we go. Buckle in. Brexit has already cost us one decade. It'll cost us another before it's done.

    Yep. It was always a 20 year false turn that booted Britain into Division 2.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,635
    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    What does “accept” mean here?
    Brexit was and is a policy disaster.

    Anyone who wants a brighter future for the country needs to start with an acceptance of fact, and then figure out solutions to move on. It doesn’t mean Rejoining, necessarily. I am not convinced of that at all.

    It is people like Lord Frost who appear to live in a state of severe cognitive dissonance bordering on mental illness.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,749
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    What nonsense. We do, but why shouldn't we comment "I told you so" when the disaster it has created becomes clear?

    I don't want to rejoin as a Championship nation, when we were Premiership, but I'd like an arrangement a little more sensible than we currently have in place.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,994

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    Another problem is hysteresis. The damage done to the British economy by Brexit will not be instantly healed by rejoining. Single market companies that have found alternative suppliers to British companies will not rush back to reactivate contracts with British companies.

    It's possible that, as British companies adjust to the trading possibilities created by trade deals made out of the EU that, even if these don't come close to making up for the Brexit damage, rejoining could itself cause further damage to the British economy, as these new trading arrangements are unwound.

    And then, of course, there's the opportunity cost of the political class obsessing about Britain's relationship with Europe and not addressing any of the long-term weaknesses of the British economy, nor reinforcing its remaining strengths. This is where the parallel with prohibition breaks down most. Reversing prohibition was a relatively trivial task. Rejoining the EU, or even the Single Market, would not be.
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    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    CCHF seems like it should be a worry. 30-40% lethality, no vaccine, already in Spain.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000
    edited July 2023
    @Simon_Peach

    I don't know much about him but what I do know is decidedly mixed.

    First off, he's an academy chain chief. That would normally put me off him. However, he has at least worked in a school, which Spielman never had.

    Second, he's a critic of OFSTED as it stands. Partly, this is because the schools he runs have been facing inspections with one hand tied behind their back because the current framework is essentially designed to favour grammar schools and Outwood specialises in struggling inner-city comps. I remember he was particularly critical of 'failing' schools being paired up with non-comparable 'outstanding' school, the latter of which didn't understand what was happening or what was needed. And in that he was right.

    However, he has also been accused of fairly major safeguarding breaches. He has, for example, been accused of concealing allegations that his heads have been threatening children. Is that true? I do not know. But such allegations having been made will certainly dog him whether true or not.

    He certainly seems pretty ruthless in getting rid of troublesome children by means of expelling them but actually I have some sympathy with that. Most schools are far too timid about removing troublemakers because LEAs will not let them (due to lack of places at schools like @dixiedean 's or the PRU in Cannock).

    If I'm honest my main reservation would be that he's come through the system as designed by Gove, Gibb and Freedman. It is a deeply flawed system and in my experience it produces deeply flawed individuals as leaders. But - I don't know whether he is one.

    Whoever comes into OFSTED faces an absolute disaster - a completely discredited agency in considerable administrative disarray, bedevilled by safeguarding breaches, with a remit that's far too wide and suffering from seven years of appallingly inept management. I hope he can sort it out but until the DfE is reformed I frankly think he's on a hiding to nothing even if he's the greatest teacher since Socrates and the greatest administrator since Lord Trevelyan (and he may find this his Irish Famine).
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    When I moved to the UK in 2000, it had fair claim to being the second greatest power on the globe.

    (Admittedly, that was because China hadn’t quite taken off, and other powers were also temporarily embarrassed.)

    We need to be thinking about 2040 now.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
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    PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    There could yet be a by-election in Wyre and Preston North before the end of this parliament.

    Disagreement between Wallace and Braverman over whether the number of service personnel sent to cover for border guards should be 250 or 750 is classic media whooshing of the far more important issue of whether or not to increase the arming of Ukraine and to keep on giving those lovely victimised darlings whatever they want because 100% of the aid will go to a 100% pure cause with 100% certainty that that's the best thing for Britain, and anyone who says otherwise can get back to Russia, foam foam, bring back flogging, how's yer pal Putin, eh, etc.

    At the same time, it's Wallace saying the government are disrespecting both the armed forces and everyone who lands at a British airport which of course in summertime includes many British citizens returning from holidays abroad.

    Probably odds-on that Wallace will resign his seat before the election. Question is whether he makes the announcement before next Thursday's by-elections or after. He might do it on Friday or on Saturday in time for Sunday papers. Sure, there's the intermediate course of just resigning as defence secretary, but to give his kick maximum force he should follow current fashion and flounce from his seat too.

    Saying the government is sh***ing on holidaymakers won't be good for the Tory vote next week. Ben is right narked. I hope he minds how he goes.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000

    When I moved to the UK in 2000, it had fair claim to being the second greatest power on the globe.

    (Admittedly, that was because China hadn’t quite taken off, and other powers were also temporarily embarrassed.)

    We need to be thinking about 2040 now.

    I don't think it's fallen 2038 places quite yet.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,687
    edited July 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
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    Smart51Smart51 Posts: 55
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    No-one denies the result of the referendum. A few Brexiteers still deny the obvious - Brexit has harmed Britain.

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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,239
    What a tennis match
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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,331

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    That would just be because the economy was dominated by agriculture, perhaps? So it was just good harvest vs bad harvest. A reflection of an external force rather than a force internal to the economy.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,512
    Sandpit said:

    Goodwood Shootout, about to start.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=s1x2sVTm3EI

    Mrs J is a very understanding wife, but I think I've just worn out her patience for today by watching the Formula E race, then switching straight over to Goodwood...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,687
    What an utter tosser.
    This is downright evil.

    Pence says abortion should be banned for nonviable pregnancies
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4099388-pence-says-abortion-should-be-banned-for-nonviable-pregnancies/
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    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,952
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    I voted Remain and accepted the result in the small hours of the Friday morning after the vote.
    Then that fucking lying cowardly bastard Cameron didn't invoke A50 like he promised he would.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,994

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    A modern capitalist economy requires a lot of discretionary spending to keep it moving. Deflation encourages people to defer discretionary spending, and so this would be likely to lead to a prolonged depression with suppressed economic activity, high unemployment, etc. This is why the Bank of England has been provided with an inflation target of 2%, rather than 0%.

    I tend to think this is a feature of capitalism that is diagnostic of it being fundamentally an insane way to organise an economy, but most people seem content to stick with it because the command economy alternatives have been worse, and although there are some interesting ideas out there, experimenting with the economic system seems to be somewhat unpopular.
  • Options
    PeckPeck Posts: 517

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    I voted Remain and accepted the result in the small hours of the Friday morning after the vote.
    Then that fucking lying cowardly bastard Cameron didn't invoke A50 like he promised he would.
    His successor then took 9 months to do it, if I recall.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,239
    What a tennis match

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    Deflation discourages spending now in favour of spending later when prices have fallen, so stifles economic activity. There is a good reason why central banks target ~2% inflation, not price stability.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    A modern capitalist economy requires a lot of discretionary spending to keep it moving. Deflation encourages people to defer discretionary spending, and so this would be likely to lead to a prolonged depression with suppressed economic activity, high unemployment, etc. This is why the Bank of England has been provided with an inflation target of 2%, rather than 0%.

    I tend to think this is a feature of capitalism that is diagnostic of it being fundamentally an insane way to organise an economy, but most people seem content to stick with it because the command economy alternatives have been worse, and although there are some interesting ideas out there, experimenting with the economic system seems to be somewhat unpopular.
    "A modern capitalist economy requires a lot of discretionary spending to keep it moving."

    You don't need inflation for that. Witness all these people queueing up to buy something that they could get cheaper by waiting:

    image
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603
    geoffw said:

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    Deflation discourages spending now in favour of spending later when prices have fallen, so stifles economic activity. There is a good reason why central banks target ~2% inflation, not price stability.
    "Let's not go out to eat tonight. It will be cheaper in 3 months' time," said nobody ever.
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    Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 409
    ydoethur said:

    @Simon_Peach

    I don't know much about him but what I do know is decidedly mixed.

    First off, he's an academy chain chief. That would normally put me off him. However, he has at least worked in a school, which Spielman never had.

    Second, he's a critic of OFSTED as it stands. Partly, this is because the schools he runs have been facing inspections with one hand tied behind their back because the current framework is essentially designed to favour grammar schools and Outwood specialises in struggling inner-city comps. I remember he was particularly critical of 'failing' schools being paired up with non-comparable 'outstanding' school, the latter of which didn't understand what was happening or what was needed. And in that he was right.

    However, he has also been accused of fairly major safeguarding breaches. He has, for example, been accused of concealing allegations that his heads have been threatening children. Is that true? I do not know. But such allegations having been made will certainly dog him whether true or not.

    He certainly seems pretty ruthless in getting rid of troublesome children by means of expelling them but actually I have some sympathy with that. Most schools are far too timid about removing troublemakers because LEAs will not let them (due to lack of places at schools like @dixiedean 's or the PRU in Cannock).

    If I'm honest my main reservation would be that he's come through the system as designed by Gove, Gibb and Freedman. It is a deeply flawed system and in my experience it produces deeply flawed individuals as leaders. But - I don't know whether he is one.

    Whoever comes into OFSTED faces an absolute disaster - a completely discredited agency in considerable administrative disarray, bedevilled by safeguarding breaches, with a remit that's far too wide and suffering from seven years of appallingly inept management. I hope he can sort it out but until the DfE is reformed I frankly think he's on a hiding to nothing even if he's the greatest teacher since Socrates and the greatest administrator since Lord Trevelyan (and he may find this his Irish Famine).

    Thank you for that full and very interesting response. One point that I would add: he is also on record as thinking that KS4 should start in Y9 as disadvantaged pupils need a three year run-up to the exams… which will see many schools execute a rapid u-turn on recent changes to prioritise KS3 curriculum…
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,375
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    Everyone has accepted it, but as per the polling only 20% believe it has been of benefit, and 57% think it has been damaging.

    Sooner or later the politicians are going to have to move to where the voters are, the acceptance that Brexit was a massive mistake.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,687

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    Well it is in the top five - because it provided a decade long distraction from addressing any of those things.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000
    edited July 2023

    ydoethur said:

    @Simon_Peach

    I don't know much about him but what I do know is decidedly mixed.

    First off, he's an academy chain chief. That would normally put me off him. However, he has at least worked in a school, which Spielman never had.

    Second, he's a critic of OFSTED as it stands. Partly, this is because the schools he runs have been facing inspections with one hand tied behind their back because the current framework is essentially designed to favour grammar schools and Outwood specialises in struggling inner-city comps. I remember he was particularly critical of 'failing' schools being paired up with non-comparable 'outstanding' school, the latter of which didn't understand what was happening or what was needed. And in that he was right.

    However, he has also been accused of fairly major safeguarding breaches. He has, for example, been accused of concealing allegations that his heads have been threatening children. Is that true? I do not know. But such allegations having been made will certainly dog him whether true or not.

    He certainly seems pretty ruthless in getting rid of troublesome children by means of expelling them but actually I have some sympathy with that. Most schools are far too timid about removing troublemakers because LEAs will not let them (due to lack of places at schools like @dixiedean 's or the PRU in Cannock).

    If I'm honest my main reservation would be that he's come through the system as designed by Gove, Gibb and Freedman. It is a deeply flawed system and in my experience it produces deeply flawed individuals as leaders. But - I don't know whether he is one.

    Whoever comes into OFSTED faces an absolute disaster - a completely discredited agency in considerable administrative disarray, bedevilled by safeguarding breaches, with a remit that's far too wide and suffering from seven years of appallingly inept management. I hope he can sort it out but until the DfE is reformed I frankly think he's on a hiding to nothing even if he's the greatest teacher since Socrates and the greatest administrator since Lord Trevelyan (and he may find this his Irish Famine).

    Thank you for that full and very interesting response. One point that I would add: he is also on record as thinking that KS4 should start in Y9 as disadvantaged pupils need a three year run-up to the exams… which will see many schools execute a rapid u-turn on recent changes to prioritise KS3 curriculum…
    Whether that is the right reason or not, the fact that our GCSE curriculum is so overstuffed means three years needs to be taken anyway unless you want to confine them to English, Science, Maths and maybe one or two others.

    One thing that would help everyone is slimming down the curriculum content.

    The chances of that happening in the next five years are remote.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,287
    edited July 2023
    The Warsaw Uprising Museum certainly doesn’t flinch from pointing out that the Germans are c*nts and the Russians are almost as bad

    The British come out of it rather well. Except for Yalta
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,742
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    And it was only an advisory referendum anyway, so not really very imporrtant. I didn't take it seriously.
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,489
    edited July 2023

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,975

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    And the Brexit vote (headline promise "free up money to spend on the NHS") comes in the same category.

    So. Given that 2016-20 happened, how unpopular does Brexit have to be for how long before a rethink is the sensible thing to do?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,198

    Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).

    That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.

    Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.

    The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that.
    Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.

    I prefer Posen's prescription of tightening monetary policy, 'leaning in' to global Britain and thinking like a small country.
    I agree with that (apart from tightening monetary policy) but none of that undermines the fact that Brexit sucked and sucks.
    You have a vested interest in loose monetary policy.
    Looser, yes.
    But I think anyway I’m unconvinced that the transmission works like it used to, and I’m also bullish (bearish?) on deflationary risk.
    The sector that has been subject to the most deflation in recent decades also happens to be the one that has been the most successful and innovative.
    I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean exactly but as I say, I think the chances of outright deflation outweigh the chances of ongoing soaring inflation in the medium term.
    Why is outright deflation a bad thing? It was quite normal until the modern era.

    image
    It creates an incentive to defer consumption and increase saving. Growth acolytes think that is a bad thing
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
    Angela Rayner actually had some very good ideas on that as Shadow Education Secretary, but unfortunately they seem to have been ditched.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    It’s true that in some respects Brexit is a massive distraction from the “real issues”.

    But in other ways, you can’t easily ignore a 5.5% dent to your economy.

    As a comparison, Adam Tooze was suggesting that to address climate change required a global 3% of GDP investment each year.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,582
    edited July 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    Well it is in the top five - because it provided a decade long distraction from addressing any of those things.
    Even if that's true, Rejoining would certainly involve another decade long trauma when the country's real problems wouldn't be addressed.

    Also we would have to join the Euro, which would be such a complete disaster for a deficit country like ourselves as we lost control of our monetary and exchange rate policy that it would dwarf any conceivable benefit from the increase in trade with the EU which would probably result.

    Even the most ardent rejoiners tend to want to talk about something else when you mention the currency issue, just like Scots Nats.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
    In retrospect, the era of technical colleges and the Open University on the BBC looks like a golden age in some ways.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,198
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    I don’t even think it’s really even possible to untangle Brexit from other issues, cleanly.

    In essence, Britain is a society that has become over-fianancialised, over-rentierized, and too old.
    It was already over-centralised and culturally averse to capital investment.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,287
    edited July 2023
    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    That is palpably, visibly ridiculous when you come here

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer. And they’ve got trams
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,375

    I don’t even think it’s really even possible to untangle Brexit from other issues, cleanly.

    In essence, Britain is a society that has become over-fianancialised, over-rentierized, and too old.
    It was already over-centralised and culturally averse to capital investment.

    Yep. The dark side of Thatchers legacy.
  • Options
    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,489
    edited July 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
    Angela Rayner actually had some very good ideas on that as Shadow Education Secretary, but unfortunately they seem to have been ditched.
    I'm sure you know the score but for the uninitiated If your not near a big university its all pretty much wank. Anything with any value now costs and the OU has been utterly shafted.

    It seems no one really cares because if you've got any power to unfuck the system you probably followed the trad route and believe any one who didn't should be in our service sector.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,287

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,151

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
    In retrospect, the era of technical colleges and the Open University on the BBC looks like a golden age in some ways.
    We need to redress the imbalance between university education and vocational training. We need to encourage apprenticeships. We need to ask why, e.g. nurses need a degree to carry out their job.
  • Options
    BournvilleBournville Posts: 305

    It’s true that in some respects Brexit is a massive distraction from the “real issues”.

    But in other ways, you can’t easily ignore a 5.5% dent to your economy.

    As a comparison, Adam Tooze was suggesting that to address climate change required a global 3% of GDP investment each year.

    Refusing to build housing, railways, transformers, nuclear power stations, whatever, has definitely cost us more than 5.5% of GDP over the last 30 years.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,994

    It’s true that in some respects Brexit is a massive distraction from the “real issues”.

    But in other ways, you can’t easily ignore a 5.5% dent to your economy.

    As a comparison, Adam Tooze was suggesting that to address climate change required a global 3% of GDP investment each year.

    Well people did ignore a 5.5% dent to the economy when they voted for it.

    And the damage is done now. How much of that 5.5% is recovered if Britain rejoins?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000

    ydoethur said:

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    I would add to this the dearth of actual adult education. Not functional "skills", or the odd French/Italian/Spanish language group, you're pissing into the wind if you want anything with a little complexity.
    Angela Rayner actually had some very good ideas on that as Shadow Education Secretary, but unfortunately they seem to have been ditched.
    I'm sure you know the score but for the uninitiated If your not near a big university its all pretty much wank. Anything with any value now costs and the OU has been utterly shafted.
    Part of the problem being it isn't really geared to adult education. Maths courses, for example, seem to be aimed at bored 17 year olds who would much rather be out doing drugs, or, if they're conscientious, earning money.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,151

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We make it better, first, by integrating back into the single market.

    Separately, we need to work hard with France on what the “Associate EU” looks like*, and see if we can create something which is also atttactive to Norway, Switzerland, Israel, and Ukraine.

    *Needs a better title.

    Plus we need to activate the “Go Canada” strategy I occasionally post about.
  • Options
    BournvilleBournville Posts: 305
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
    Rejoining single market and reintroducing freedom of movement can't be separated. We could reintroduce freedom of movement without rejoining the single market but not the other way round.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    It’s true that in some respects Brexit is a massive distraction from the “real issues”.

    But in other ways, you can’t easily ignore a 5.5% dent to your economy.

    As a comparison, Adam Tooze was suggesting that to address climate change required a global 3% of GDP investment each year.

    Well people did ignore a 5.5% dent to the economy when they voted for it.

    And the damage is done now. How much of that 5.5% is recovered if Britain rejoins?
    They were told actually there was no 5.5% hit and in fact that Brexit would turbo charge economic growth.

    As for the recovery, it’s like a wound. It’ll take time to heal.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    Remember when Peter Hain commented that 'compared to Rwanda and many other places, Wales is doing quite well?'
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,081
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.

    England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used.

    Our economic problems are entirely down to the fact we have refused to build anything since the mid 90s to appease a selfish generation which benefited from what was left to them and is determined to leave as little as possible to what comes after them.

    Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.

    Well it is in the top five - because it provided a decade long distraction from addressing any of those things.
    Even if that's true, Rejoining would certainly involve another decade long trauma when the country's real problems wouldn't be addressed.

    Also we would have to join the Euro, which would be such a complete disaster for a deficit country like ourselves as we lost control of our monetary and exchange rate policy that it would dwarf any conceivable benefit from the increase in trade with the EU which would probably result.

    Even the most ardent rejoiners tend to want to talk about something else when you mention the currency issue, just like Scots Nats.
    No no, it'll be the easiest deal in history.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    I’m not a Polish expert.
    Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    I think Hull is a bad example. Hull feels young and vibrant. City if culture and all that. It sounds dull and depressing, especially if said in a Hull accent, but it's not. But pretty much any university city does.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,000

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    I’m not a Polish expert.
    Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
    Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.

    But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
  • Options
    BournvilleBournville Posts: 305

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
    Rejoining single market and reintroducing freedom of movement can't be separated. We could reintroduce freedom of movement without rejoining the single market but not the other way round.
    "Freedom of movement"? We issued over a million visas last year - do you honestly think that issuing more will solve anything? It's more likely that freedom of movement would *damage" our economy, because young people will simply emigrate to countries with lower taxes and better standards of living.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,151

    It’s true that in some respects Brexit is a massive distraction from the “real issues”.

    But in other ways, you can’t easily ignore a 5.5% dent to your economy.

    As a comparison, Adam Tooze was suggesting that to address climate change required a global 3% of GDP investment each year.

    Well people did ignore a 5.5% dent to the economy when they voted for it.

    And the damage is done now. How much of that 5.5% is recovered if Britain rejoins?
    They were told actually there was no 5.5% hit and in fact that Brexit would turbo charge economic growth.

    As for the recovery, it’s like a wound. It’ll take time to heal.
    The wound won’t heal while the Tories are continuing to open it.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,603

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We make it better, first, by integrating back into the single market.

    Separately, we need to work hard with France on what the “Associate EU” looks like*, and see if we can create something which is also atttactive to Norway, Switzerland, Israel, and Ukraine.

    *Needs a better title.
    France is currently having what can only be described as a hissy fit over the Commission deciding to appoint an American economist to work on competition issues.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,180
    edited July 2023
    I suspect Brexit is ultimately stuffed because of demographic change. The evidence so far (see John Curtice for instance) is that pro-Eu sentiment is more akin to accepting same-sex marriage rather than becoming more economically conservative as one ages and accumulates assets. Millennials aren't changing their mind, and aren't likely to become convinced that the stuff on Turkey, the £350m a week etc. was anything other than a pack of lies.
    I think there's a fair chance demographic change alone will lead to there being a two-thirds majority for rejoin by the 2030s.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,375

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    I’m not a Polish expert.
    Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
    Not according to this map:

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:GDP_per_inhabitant_in_purchasing_power_standards_(PPS),_2020_(index_in_relation_to_the_EU_average_=_100,_by_NUTS_2_regions)_RYB2022.png

    Though I think such maps have quite a capital city bias, with GDP assigned where company HQ etc is situated, rather than over the wider area of operations.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We make it better, first, by integrating back into the single market.

    Separately, we need to work hard with France on what the “Associate EU” looks like*, and see if we can create something which is also atttactive to Norway, Switzerland, Israel, and Ukraine.

    *Needs a better title.
    France is currently having what can only be described as a hissy fit over the Commission deciding to appoint an American economist to work on competition issues.
    So what.

    Macron’s “Greater Europe” idea appears to be underpinned by the notion that the EU shouldn’t enlarge (too unwieldy), but can increase its economic hegemony by creating an “outer ring”.

    In some ways that clashes with British strategy, but in other ways it gives us an opening.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,287
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality



  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,833
    Wow, Alcaraz gets the second set 7-6!

    One set all.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    Leon said:

    A//

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality



    That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,375

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We make it better, first, by integrating back into the single market.

    Separately, we need to work hard with France on what the “Associate EU” looks like*, and see if we can create something which is also atttactive to Norway, Switzerland, Israel, and Ukraine.

    *Needs a better title.
    France is currently having what can only be described as a hissy fit over the Commission deciding to appoint an American economist to work on competition issues.
    So what.

    Macron’s “Greater Europe” idea appears to be underpinned by the notion that the EU shouldn’t enlarge (too unwieldy), but can increase its economic hegemony by creating an “outer ring”.

    In some ways that clashes with British strategy, but in other ways it gives us an opening.
    An opening to be a vassal state.

    Not that I mind, considering how pisspoor our government is. The less say they have in things the better.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,932
    edited July 2023
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?

    It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.

    And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
    Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”

    The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters

    Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
    We make it better, first, by integrating back into the single market.

    Separately, we need to work hard with France on what the “Associate EU” looks like*, and see if we can create something which is also atttactive to Norway, Switzerland, Israel, and Ukraine.

    *Needs a better title.
    France is currently having what can only be described as a hissy fit over the Commission deciding to appoint an American economist to work on competition issues.
    So what.

    Macron’s “Greater Europe” idea appears to be underpinned by the notion that the EU shouldn’t enlarge (too unwieldy), but can increase its economic hegemony by creating an “outer ring”.

    In some ways that clashes with British strategy, but in other ways it gives us an opening.
    An opening to be a vassal state.

    Not that I mind, considering how pisspoor our government is. The less say they have in things the better.
    I don’t think it’s helpful to use this term “vassal state”.
    In any case, Brtain has already accepted it can no longer be a “rule maker” so we are just “arguing about the price”.

    NZ is also a “rule taker” and I don’t think anyone thinks the worse of us.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,763

    Leon said:

    A//

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality



    That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
    Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,295
    Andy_JS said:

    I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.

    You mean the 1975 referendum right?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,616
    I believe most think Brexit needs much improvement and certainly it will be by incremental steps and Sunak’s WF is a start as is the negotiation to rejoin Horizon

    I expect Starmer to continue the rapprochement with the EU, but also in the coming years actively take part in the CPTPP which we joined today

    We cannot tell where the EU will be in the future, not least with the rise of the the right across Europe, and whatever happens it will not be as it was when we were members as change is happening and needs to be accepted
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,375

    Leon said:

    A//

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality



    That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
    Looks quite a high standard of building with decent sized rooms. Better than much British housing.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,151
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality




    Hampstead
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,419
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?

    It is palpably, visibly ridiculous

    Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer

    Does it feel young and vibrant though?

    I think you need to travel through the UK.
    After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
    This is the capital city
    Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.

    We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
    But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”

    Reality



    Um...that's quite nice. What was the point you were making? Why is that worse than, say, Walthamstow high street?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,994

    I suspect Brexit is ultimately stuffed because of demographic change. The evidence so far (see John Curtice for instance) is that pro-Eu sentiment is more akin to accepting same-sex marriage rather than becoming more economically conservative as one ages and accumulates asserts. Millennials aren't changing there mind, and aren't likely to become convinced that the stuff on Turkey, the £350m a week etc. was anything other than a pack of lies.
    I think there's a fair chance demographic change alone will lead to there being a two-thirds majority for rejoin by the 2030s.

    We've discussed Brexit on this thread as an economic and practical issue but, of course, the vote was primarily on identity lines. The boomers have an identity created in a UK that wasn't a member of the EU, but those born after the UK joined have a different identity, and took membership of the EU for granted as part of that identity.

    So perhaps the critical question for the future of Brexit is whether it can survive long enough to see a new generation reach voting age. One that takes Brexit for granted as just one of those things that is, and that would regard joining the EU as being a bit of a weird disruption to the status quo, as weird as most people would regard any proposal to join the US, or to create a CANZUK union.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,287
    This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011




    How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?

    What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,582
    edited July 2023

    I don’t even think it’s really even possible to untangle Brexit from other issues, cleanly.

    In essence, Britain is a society that has become over-fianancialised, over-rentierized, and too old.

    No.

    Over-financialized - the share of our GDP generated by financial services (8%) is about the same as the US (7%) or Switzerland (9%), both of which have much higher income levels.

    Over rentierized - God knows what that means.

    Too old - the UK's average age is 40.6, which is much younger than Germany's (47.8), Japan (48.6), Spain (43.9), Switzerland (42.7) and France (41.7). Amongst big advancd economies, only the United States (38.5) has a significantly lower average age. Maybe we should all eat even more fatty foods, take opioids and start shooting each other?

    https://www.worlddata.info/average-age.php

    Our problem is that we don't have sensible free market supply-side economic policies, and haven't had them for a couple of decades, since we've had lazy Jim Hacker-style governments which coasted on the success of the 1980s reforms, undermining them when they should have been consolidating and extending them.
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